Welcome to Fandom Shmandom, the fandom podcast
that covers everything you love and more. I'm
Sierra Obermark. And I'm Sam Williams. And I
have an apology and our first retcon of the podcast,
which is everything to do with the MVP conversation
from our very last, not Bob's Burger episode,
but our Stranger Things episode, where we...
duly dubbed Robin and Will MVP, and then later
realized that we'd already given Robin an MVP
in season three. And that Will, I now will cede
to you, Sierra, that Will should probably have
solo MVP honors from episodes one through four
of season five, our last episode. So you win.
Will is now solo MVP. Well, we, I think, I think
we did decide he would be solo MVP as long as
Robin didn't die in these next three episodes.
So doubly, we didn't, we didn't have to technically
retcon. Well, great. So the retcon's gone. But
now I'm also feeling like it probably just should
have been Will. And also she didn't die, so that's
helpful. Spoilers alert from here on forward.
Oh my gosh, yes. Sorry, we should have maybe
led with that. It's coming. It really is. It
really is. Today's episode, we will be proficiently
prattling about Stranger Things Season 5, Episodes
5 through 7. Spoiler warning, we will be talking
about everything to do with Stranger Things.
That includes all four previous seasons, the
play, and all of season five so far. And without
further ado, we will, as Roger Smith says, dive
all in. So keep your finger on the pause button
and rewind that tape. It's... The prestige category.
What did we notice on this watch through? Biggest
reaction times, episode five. My biggest reaction
in chronological order in this one was Mr. Clark.
Yes. Hello. We were right. A, he deserves to
be in the show more. And B, Sierra, you said
he deserves to know everything. I hope they do
that. And you were very right about that. Yes,
yes. We were a little wrong on the circumstances
of him coming into the group and being part of
everything. I think we'd originally said that
maybe he would be in danger and the group would
come and save him and that's how he would come
into everything. And so it's a little flipped
because he gets drawn in specifically to save
Dustin. But I honestly like this a lot better
because just shows even more that he's just so
ride or die for. His students, his favorite student,
his little protege, go schnookums. He really,
I hope that in his brain, a lot of this is just
like, oh, well, this makes sense. This all makes
sense a lot more now. I feel like I understand
a lot more about what's been going on in my life
for the last five years. So that's great. And
also, yes, go schnookums. I had a big reaction.
To Erica and Lucas coming up with two excellent
and flawed plans. Just kind of the same as I
did for the first four episodes when I was like,
Mike and Nancy are like leading this plan brigade.
And they just both come in with this like sibling
energy. And, you know, they come up with some
good plans. We got the demo getting re -alived.
And we've got bringing in Mr. Clark, which are
great. I will say this is the best line, I think,
of the entire three. which was, you want to Dr.
Frankenstein a dead demo? And we're not doing
that category today. So I will just like check.
That's it. Yes, I agree. I shall confirm. Dustin
and Steve's fight. Just Dustin and Steve in general
in these episodes. I feel like so much needed
to come out. So much conversation needed to be
had. And I don't think that it. happens without
a fight. So yeah, it was pretty intense. And
I I've seen since watching, I've seen some of
the behind the scenes footage of them filming
the actual fight and he just, they're going all
out. Yeah. They're just going for it. And, um,
the actor who plays Steve. Joe Keery. Thank you.
Joe Keery was. saying just he was pretty impressed
because every once in a while he'd just go yeah
he just like goes all in i feel like that's dustin's
actor gaten m i will say his last name is m i
that's just him in the nutshell is that he's
constantly willing to commit very much to what
whatever the the moment or the bit or whatever
it calls for he's he stands up for it and that's
just So excellent. Especially because Joe Keery's
acting of Steve is so consistent. That character
is so solidly acted. And so Dustin's able to
sort of swing in this season from funny and joyful
to depressed in a way that it doesn't feel unnatural
because of Joe Keery's very solid present in
that moment. So what a great fight. It was really
interesting to see them have that debate about.
Did Eddie actually save anybody or not? Very
a la what you and I were talking about. It's
the same thing. I know the whole time I was,
I was doing the meme. I was, I was like, this,
this is, this is the conversation that we had
because you were very much on Dustin's side because
you're seeing things from Dustin's perspective.
I think a little bit more. And then I was seeing
things more from Steve's side of like, he kind
of was needless. And. A little sad. I think it's
somewhere. Because of that. It's not in the middle.
I would say it leans more towards Steve's side.
But there is that whole deal about like when
you hurt the hive mind, you hurt the hive mind.
And so like he is doing damage and causing a
distraction. But I, you know, Steve eventually
comes up and says like, no, he did save some
people. And I felt like that they struck that
middle ground there where Dustin realizes it
is a little bit useless. And also there is some
penance given to this did some good. Yeah. Yeah.
Even if it was, you know, specifically to save
Dustin or there was a specific amount of time
that it delayed everything. Yeah. But yeah, I
definitely, I like that they kind of come to
that compromise. I'm really missing Eddie in
this season, I will say. And that's not a shot
at season five. I still think all the characters
are great and it would have been very difficult
to have. Eddie added in or like if they brought
back Billy or any of this stuff, especially with
the whole child line where you have to bring
in Holly and, and Derek as new actual characters.
But I, I just miss him so much. I just loved
him. He was great. I will also say it's interesting
to me. I care way more about Dustin and Steve's
relationship than I did Nancy and Jonathan's
this entire run, even with their big, we'll talk
about their breakup scene later, but. I think
that's a real indicative of like the problems
with season four, where I would have told you,
I think Nancy and Jonathan's place holds and
their relationship holds this incredibly important
place in the show in terms of teenage romance.
you know, kind of riffing off of 1980s romance
tropes and them having real life conversations
just as much as Steve and Dustin's joyousness
and friendship and quirkiness really held a strong
place in the show. And then when they end up
benching both, both buyers in the desert and
Jonathan really doesn't have a storyline. And
then they kind of create this relationship problem.
They don't have anywhere else to go. And especially
if you read the Nancy book, which I just finished
Nancy and Robin's little murder mystery. set
in Hawkins in between seasons four and five.
Like they really do set up like Jonathan and
Nancy have problems and there's no way out of
it. But yeah, I was much more into Dustin and
Steve's fight and the importance of them having
words and coming to blows and then everything
that that leads to. In terms of biggest reactions
of episode five, I think Will breaking Vecna's
leg. Ooh, yeah. Which is just like a visceral
like, whoa, yes. I know. I was a little let down
because I was just going, oh, yes, you're able
to do it. Keep going. Come on. Do something else
now. The end of some of these episodes with keep
going was just like, hey, continue. Continue
to do this thing. No, you're not doing this thing.
So, Will, just a bit slow, like, boom, boom,
boom, let's get all four limbs, let's get the
eyes, and then he's dead. And I think Vecna puts
up resistance in between, but that's more subtextual
than textual. It was just really cool to see
the leg break and be like, ah, Vecna's human.
All right, he is actually human. That's kind
of the whole point of this deal. I also, interesting
note here, especially for our what's going on
with eight conversation coming up, when... Vecna
is being spoken through by Will. So Will has,
has puppeteered the puppet master Vecna himself.
And he's speaking, they give him this voice.
That's like, it's much more like Will's now it's
still Vecna's voice, but it's much more like
Will's in the way that Will speaks. And it's
a great acting performance. But also I think
that when we talk about where Callie's accent
has gone, just keep that in mind. And of course,
big, big reaction to Dustin's. incredible like
wrap up of episode five, giving that huge amount
of anxiety of like, wait, I was wrong. Don't
destroy it. If you destroy it, everyone will
die. Holly will die. You will die. You know,
there's just the screaming that Dustin is doing
as he's racing up the stairs with his broken
walkie talkie. And that's just, I had a big reaction
and was immediately like, okay, next episode.
Yeah. Not even a discussion. And then of course
we get the great lines of Jonathan. holding nancy's
gun and pushing it down and being like are you
sure about this no and then shoots it anyways
i also i know this is getting into episode six
but on that topic it really cracks me up that
dustin immediately knows that because something
has happened he knows that nancy has shot it
yeah Anything else has happened. Not that they
threw something at it. Not that they figured
out a way to turn it off or whatever, interfere
with the signal. But literally, he's like, well,
Nancy clearly shot it. That's not Jonathan. So
funny. Let's be honest. No, I did like that part
a lot. Speaking of episode six, I had a big reaction
to 11, Superman 8, and Hop to Safety to avoid
the void sucking that has just been created by
Steve's. beamer going through the wall as the
like matter the extreme matter the what is it
called the exotic matter when the exotic matter
sort of self heals after a little bit and maybe
stops the wall it's all confusing anyways i did
have a big reaction that because that's like
we're seeing a lot of l's powers like that's
like full force l avoiding the the vacuum of
space getting everybody to safety taking out
all the stuff being thrown at her, I was like,
oh, hey, we get a bit of moment. I didn't realize
I'd been craving a little bit more action like
that. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. In a very fantastical,
high -level science story, I feel like we don't
get quite enough of it. Yeah. I also loved Dustin's
moment of saying, it's not magic, it's science.
Yes. Oh, great. It's not as dark magic, it's
science. It's fantastic. And that's kind of been
the whole point of the last couple seasons. If
we start with the, it's magic in season one,
and now it's all science. It's a really cool
sort of meta moment for the story to reveal itself
like that. Very interesting. I had just this
wonderful reaction to Robin. Telling Lucas that
they needed to turn the radio off and Lucas refusing
to turn the radio off. He is. I think I'm going
to say I'm going to say it right here. Lucas
is becoming my favorite part of this show. Yeah,
absolutely. It started. It started last season.
Yeah. And definitely it's just he's just getting.
and just consistent in his emotional beats throughout
the episodes. And him just clinging to her, those
kind of tears brimming in his eyes, the fear,
them seeing the Demodogs closing in on them,
and then just his faith that Max is coming. He
knows it. Max is on the way. Max is coming. He's
not going to turn that radio off. If he can do
anything about it, he would rather die. Yeah.
Than not let her escape. Yeah. And it's fantastic.
They are, they're the best couple duo. Not, not
even close. It's not even close. I mean, the
season four finale of him holding her as she's
like actively about to die, sealed that already
for me. I just got chills again, thinking about
Erica help. Erica, help! Oh my gosh, yeah. But
that moment with Max and not turning it off,
even as the demo dogs are... He knows they're
coming. They're in the laundry room. It's just
like, what amazing faith. And the fact that Robin
is like, okay, and scared out of her mind. I
really thought for a moment they were going to
kill Robin off right there in order to save more
time. And then I thought it was Elle who was
doing the washing machine. Because I thought
it was like a season three callback to turning
on the car. Oh, no, I knew who it was. Yes. Well
done. Well done. Yes. I, yes, I know. I knew
who it was because Mrs. Wheeler. Yes. Amazing.
Here's Lucas's name over the PA. Immediately.
I know them. I know these demos are bad. I know
these lights flickering. Yes, I know these lights
flickering. I know exactly what is going on and
I am going to save whoever I can. Let's go. And
then she looks at the oxygen tanks. And so then
when I heard the thing going and the Demogorgons
or the Demodogs turning and seeing what the commotion
was about. Especially when you see that it's
the oxygen tank in the dryer. It's so, so good.
I also had a very visceral reaction to the Demodogs
becoming cats for a second. And just looking
at the oxygen tank spinning around in the dryer
like, ooh, what is this? I will say I had a big
problem with the fact that they gave one of the
Demodogs like the Tim Allen. Home improvement.
It was very funny. Come on. It was slightly cheesy.
Yeah. With that added in noise. That's the only
point. I was down with the whole moment right
up until they did that. And then I was like,
okay. Yeah. But Mrs. Wheeler for the win. And
then she's just like, yeah, I'm continuing to
follow you guys. Let's go. I'm here to help.
No. I'm here. And they're like, no, you got to
stay. But I take back. Great Mike moment, by
the way. Great Mike moment right there when he's
like, this is the group that saved Will. You've
got to go and trust us and you've got to go back.
And I kind of want to take back everything I've
said about Mrs. Wheeler and Mike because they're
really on it this season. Although. Listen, I
understand the sentiment. The recency bias is
strong with you right now. Because if you go
back. There was a good reason why for the first
four seasons, at least with Mike, we were like,
good God, this guy sucks. Yes, this is true.
No, I don't necessarily want to take it all back,
but I do think that they have, my opinion of
them now has superseded, they have made up for
in spades, the lackluster performances previous.
In terms of character. Yeah. Yes. Especially,
I think, with Mrs. Wheeler because she was really
relegated to this kind of side character who
is very willfully ignorant of everything that's
going on and just very much, you know, Holly
points one direction, she looks the other direction
type of situation. very much on the outskirts
of everything that's going on. And you're kind
of going, why do we care so much about her? This,
this is why we care about her. Yes. I, I got
a, I got a little announcement for those of you
online and, and in the world that are like, I
want, Mike is no longer good. I want to go back
to the old Mike, go back to the dark cave of
where you came from. From whence you came. Crawl
back into the abyss. We don't want to hear from
you. You have terrible taste in human people.
Dear Lord. My goodness. So the next thing that
I, you know, I would say it was a big reaction,
but honestly, it was kind of a lackluster reaction
for me was Nancy and Jonathan's breakup. I think.
It didn't necessarily come out of nowhere, but
I feel like we hear during their conversation
all the problems that they had. And I feel like
we maybe should have seen more of those in the
interim time between the end of season four and
the beginning of season five. And obviously there's,
you know, almost two years have passed. And so
a lot of things I'm sure have come up. He sold
her sweater to Goodwill and hates everything
she's ever written? So there's been two instances
of this type of conversation that have come up
that my wife and I have been like, what the actual
flippin' flyers? Like, who does that? Because
there was like this, you know, we... The TikTok
trend of, like, we listen and we don't judge.
And couples will do it. And one couple was like,
oh, yeah, when I get angry with you, sometimes
I donate your favorite clothes to Goodwill. And
then I'm like, oh, yeah, you must have lost it.
That's horrible. I'm sorry. That's, like, really
toxic. Let's all be very clear. That action's
very toxic. Jonathan, it's like, first of all,
Nancy's like. Has, like, very relatable things
to say about Jonathan. And then he's like, I
hate reading the thing that you want to do for
your career. I hate your articles so much. And
then he clarifies, to be fair. He does clarify
to say, you aren't interested in my actual opinions
about your articles. You just want to hear how
great they are. Which, that would be annoying,
certainly. Yes. And then she responds, but they
are great. Yeah, which is super annoying and
very Hermione -coded for Nancy. And this is then
Jonathan and her are very Ron and Hermione coded
in ways. And this is why I think they don't actually
work as a couple, but that's a whole different
podcast. So, but then Jonathan is like, so first
of all, he's like, by the way, I hate your career.
And second of all, I donated one of your favorite
articles of clothing and then didn't tell you
that I did that. What? No, you guys should be
broken up. This is crazy. And like, it's, it's
nice to refreshing that they're like, we're feeling
strangled by their shared trauma. And suffocated
by that. That was important information to see.
But you're right. In terms of, like, storytelling,
there was a lot of tell. Right. And don't show.
And not enough show. I feel like the California
storyline for Jonathan really painted him into
this corner. Right. Like, either they were going
to resolve everything off camera, which would
have been very unsatisfying. And then they'd
still be, you know, dating or whatever. And it
would all be fine. Or they were going to have
struggles. And have to break up. And my wife
and I, you know, we saw that ring in the cassette
tape. And we went, oh, no. Like, trying to fix
everything by getting engaged is crazy. That's
like having a kid to save your marriage. That,
what? Stupid. Stupid decisions. PSA, this is
your early public service announcement. This
episode. Please don't do that. Please don't do
that. Please don't have kids to save your marriage.
For the sake of yourselves. For the sake of said
child. For the sake of anybody involved, please
don't do that. Please don't do that. It's really
a lot of pressure on one kid. Yes. Please don't.
Please don't. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I just... I was
a fine conclusion to come to them. I liked that
scene a lot. I thought the acting was phenomenal
between the two. And also, more importantly,
for show stuff... Okay, so does the exotic matter...
feed off of emotional stability, because when
they're emotionally unstable is when the whole
melting thing's happening, and as soon as they
find emotional stability, it's all stable and
good. I have no idea. That's like a real weak
theory. I'm not actually behind that, but it
was a thought that crossed my mind. Those two
random soldiers just had a very good emotional
stability right as they were - As they were dying.
Or they died, and so it froze because there was
no emotional instability. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Good.
Good, good, good, good, good. So, episode six.
My two biggest reactions from episode six, though,
were these two. First of all, the cave and the
briefcase, and then Max. Dear Max, run. The cave
and the briefcase. Listen. It's... I think they've
done a pretty good job of building in this backstory
for Vecna so that even if you haven't seen the
play, you can understand what's happening. I
will say, there's this very strange space on
being like, well, I saw the play, so therefore
I can do all of these predictions. Like, we can
talk about, because Aurelia and I went and saw
the play in London over the summer, you and I
are able to have a discourse around the Mind
Flayer's probably the ultimate villain. Henry
doesn't realize that he's actually being played.
He's probably going to turncoat. Like we can
have those conversations and we probably would
have anyways, because you and I are following
a lot of people on social media who are doing
all sorts of stuff and that have explained the
play, et cetera. We would have done that, that
research, but it's kind of frustrating to be
like, all right, the people who've seen the play
kind of already know what, how this is going
to end. Right. And the people who haven't are
kind of a little too confused and are having
to rely on people. It's just such a strange social
media space where a lot of people are getting
their information from content creators who have
either listened to somebody else explain what
the play is or went and saw the play themselves.
And it's kind of this funky game of accurate
telephone. I will say it's pretty accurate, though,
but it is quite frustrating. Because they really
should have released some version of the play
to the masses ahead of time. We said this, I
think, before. Just let us read it. Right. Yeah.
Give us the script or film a production of it
and put it on Netflix and let everybody see it
to understand what's going on. Because I do feel
like... There are still so many questions because
they're kind of teasing the information and giving
the characters viewpoint. You know, Holly's watching
this in the cave and watching what Henry is doing
and watching him open the briefcase, but then
it cuts because Holly turns away. Right. And
so we don't actually see, I kept expecting it
to go back to at least inform the viewers. what
was going on no they're clearly gonna do that
in the finale and i bet anything that the finale
is gonna open with a flashback to dr brenner's
um dad captain brenner who i bet anything is
the actual uh creator of that journal that dustin
found oh it's the wrong brenner because there's
the there's that wonderful drawing of the exotic
matter and in season four dr brenner draws the
cow dog and it's like i've never been much of
an artist right Yeah. And now it could be that
an assistant created that notebook and it's still
Dr. Brenner stuff. But I'm like, this is like
a little Sam theory. It's like Captain Brenner
wrote that notebook, not Dr. Brenner. But who
knows? But the point is, I think they're going
to open up with a flashback to explain a bunch
of that stuff. Or it'll happen in it at some
point. Yeah, go for it. Exactly. But the frustrating
thing is that currently there's a bunch of people
who are confused and are going, well, what was
in the briefcase? Yeah. And then everybody who's
seen the play. Or knows about the play is going,
well, it was the mind flayer in the briefcase.
Obviously. Did he see the particles come out?
It's like one of their equipment from Captain
Brenner's ship that is from, that went to the
abyss slash dimension X that he touches and gets
transported or something like that. But yeah,
eventually he ends up with the mind flayer with
that tool. It's just, it's just, it is a little
frustrating because it does feel like there's
just so many, I mean, with any show, there are
going to be a lot of people who are confused
and it feels like there's a little bit, Too many
people confused about this one thing because
they haven't seen the play. And I don't know.
It's hard. It's hard to get past. But still a
big reaction because at this point, it's not
even a theory anymore to me. The Mind Flayer
is in charge, not Vector. And that it hasn't
been proven, but it's a pretty set wrap for me.
And I'm going to bring it up again in a little
bit. Okay, great. So don't you fret. Here we
go. Also, the other biggest reaction, as I said,
was Max, run. Like, you already didn't make it
out because the music turned off from Kate Bush.
And then you got shut out. Like, I know we need
to help Holly get out. That's so noble of you.
Super great. But. You did not know that portal
was going to open, ma 'am. You had no idea. Ma
'am. Yes, seriously. You, me, everyone else.
Why are they talking for 20 minutes instead of
running up that hill? Run, run, run up the hill.
But then she starts walking. It takes her a while
to run. Even after they're going to their separate
things, I was like, oh yes, this is nice and
cinematic. Can you run now? Please. I get the
fact that we're all like, come on, come on. That
is precisely what the medium is supposed to do.
And make you feel, but I, I confess myself extremely
annoyed, even though I think it's exactly right.
And then I'm supposed to be annoyed and I'm supposed
to be frustrated and I'm supposed to be feeling
anxiety. And so I say this with, with all credence
to the fact that this is good. This is good television,
but my God, I, there's a great, a great, a great.
gif that somebody put together tiktok video something
of that nature of mr bean like his most famous
like looking at his watch and then laying down
the field and everything as he's waiting for
max to run so good it's really good if you're
listening to this podcast and you're like i have
no idea who mr bean is hello gen z hi gen alpha
uh look him up he's really weirdly funny a lot
of physical comedy rowan atkinson is a legend
episode seven biggest reaction What is this Dark
Crystal Cave? If none of you have seen Dark Crystal,
it's a 1980s movie. I watched it 10 ,000 years
ago. I watched a recap just a little bit ago
to remind myself of what's going on. The cave
that Vecna is in. First of all, I don't think
it's a cave. I think it is the corporeal form
of the Mind Flayer. We see those beating hearts.
We see its weird shape. I think that this is
where that beast comes from. And so when they
eventually go to kill... The beast, they will
have to destroy its physical form. But this cave
that's there looks almost, it's certainly a reference
to the Dark Crystal. If not, there may be something
more going along. It is interesting that that
Dark Crystal, that movie is all about, so a little
bit of a spoilers or a quick summary of that
movie. That movie is all about like, hey, there's
a crystal that got shattered. And so Dark Crystal
came out and it basically split a whole species
in two different parts. And the whole thing is
about. putting that crystal back to where it
was and creating balance and rejoining those
two worlds together, which is, is Henry Creel's
plan. Is it not? Yeah. Uh, and so like, I don't
know how much of a reference this is going to
be, but like creating balance and was this world
is dimension X and earth actually the same place
and it should be brought together. I have no
idea. I don't think so, but I was intrigued to
see that this was about like, Now, their planet
is a whole planet, and it's really just two species
that have been split in half. And they're trying
to bring everything back together to create harmony.
And that's clearly not Vekta's plan. Vekta's
plan is to take over and reform the world as
new. But it was just enough to make me go, huh,
I wonder if there's anything there. To make you
go, hmm. To reference something else that people
won't know. So listen, I'm going to have my biggest
negative reaction of the whole three episodes.
Holly plummeting to her death. Oh gosh, yeah.
I gotta say, as soon as she started... Okay,
let's pull back. I think it's interesting that
she has this, like, I'm going to run away from
Vecna and I found this rift. And at first I was
like, that's a convenient rift. And then we find
out later Vecna's putting those rifts there on
purpose. Okay, fine. Easy peasy. I can buy into
that. And then she pulls through and then she
falls. And I'm sitting there being like, she
shouldn't, she shouldn't be falling. Right? Like,
it's not like there's a gravitational force that's
heavier. That's creating gravity down in upside
down Hawkins in the abyss. Like it should be
equal weight gravity. I like, I guess they really
needed a way to be like, guys, it's up there.
And so here's how we show that it's up there.
But Holly, first of all, she just falls. And
then it happens to be right on top of Hawkins
Lab, which again seemed contrived. Well, not
necessarily. I think that that makes sense because
that's where the exotic matter is. And so everything
is coming out of the exotic matter. But Vecna's
lair. being literally right on top of the same
place just happens to be right there and that
rift just happens to be right there is what feels
a bit contrived okay so she pulls out and she
falls immediately down there like i understand
that being in the center of everything that's
fine but in terms of her like bloop and then
she falls and then nancy hears the screen and
she's like oh holly and it just just like Okay,
there's a lot of coincidences happening that
seem less interesting and more just like, well,
we need a way to show this. And the fact that
Becta's just like, yoink! Also, that is an insanely
long distance for him to stop terminal velocity.
Yeah, gently. Gently stop terminal velocity.
Gently, yeah. And then pull her back up. Yeah.
With expedience. Did not love that. That precise
moment. The whole rest of the show, I think,
has been, you know, if not brilliantly written,
then very arguable that this is the right way
to go. That scene, I was like, I guess you need
a way to get from point A to point B. But this
felt a little bit weaker than the normal expectations
I have for Stranger Things. Yeah. My biggest
reactions, I think, are a lot of people's biggest
reactions with this episode. Dustin and Steve's
makeup. I honestly, this was the moment that
I had tears brimming. Not the potential breakup
earlier, or not potential, but not the breakup
earlier, not the fight earlier, not any of the
forthcoming stuff, but this right here was when
it really got me. And Lucas and Max being reunited.
Those two moments were the emotional beats for
me. And so Dustin and Steve making up and actually
having that conversation and apologizing to each
other and explaining why they need each other
and how important they are and that they should
have been there for each other this whole time.
And they were kind of taking each other for granted.
And it's just so wonderful. So amazing. If you're
looking for the opposite definition of toxic
masculinity, it's this right here. Certainly.
This conversation. It's the exact opposite. It
feels very much, and this is so funny because
this is not the type of thing that you saw in
any of the films, but it feels very Lord of the
Rings coded in terms of watching male friendships
that are blooming and having a good time with
each other. Super supportive, you know. to you
guys. It's awesome. It's really great to see.
I love it a lot. And then the last one. Will,
or not the last one. The last one for me of what
I think a lot of people had big reactions to
is Will's whole coming out, which I think was
very... I know there's a lot of different opinions
about how many people were involved in this situation
and should it have really been everybody or should
it have just been a select few and things like
that. I personally... think that it made sense
for it to be either just joyce jonathan and mike
or everyone i don't think that there's a way
to have and he doesn't even really need to have
that conversation with jonathan because they've
kind of already had it yeah you can see that
on jonathan's face yeah i know buddy yeah i know
he's so proud of him in that moment which is
really really sweet little brotherly And what
I was hoping for, because I was hoping that Jonathan
would be there to help him with that moment.
So I, I really, I think that it makes sense because
all of these people are now going to be relying
on will and what he can do during this mission
with L and eight and being able to. on him is
also him relying on himself and being true to
himself. And that's a really key moment for him
to be able to fully accept who he is and then
share that with everyone. And so I think that
just builds the trust in the whole group. And
also at this point. You know, everybody's really
just this kind of quirky family at this point.
And it would be odd to leave out, you know, I
would like to talk to these seven of you. Erica,
stay home. Murray, don't need to see you here.
Yeah. You seven stay over there. I would be interested,
again, in terms of showing, not telling, it would
be nice to see him have relationships with more
of these people. You can surmise that over the
last 600 days, that. He has created more relationships
with everybody. But yeah, I thought for a second
that we were just going to get Mike, Joyce, and
him. And then he says, actually, I think everybody
needs to hear this. And that's great. I was shocked
by that. I, you know, in terms of Vecna having
no hold over him, it's like everybody that I'm
going into battle with needs to know this so
that there's no weaknesses for him to point out.
Exactly. Still. a plausibly you know a very frightening
perspective terrifying and it would i you know
i i do have a slight criticism in in two different
directions on this on this scene first of all
the criticism for those people who are saying
this was so anticlimactic the episode seven the
penultimate episode of the entire series is anticlimactic
from an action standpoint in terms of it is really
all set up We got a little bit of action with
Vecna and Will earlier. The rescue mission for
Will felt truncated and not as much information
as we could have gotten. It just felt rather
easy for Elle to go in and do that. The escape
from Camazotz I thought was great in Episode
6, but Episode 7, not really. This does feel
very, and this is a reference that Sierra and
I will understand, but it does feel very Dragon
Age -y. Where you are told... by the video game
from here on out you will not be able to come
back to your main base of operations yeah please
finish up any side quests that you'd like before
the end of the game starts and you go around
and you go through all the side quests for all
the different characters and you resolve all
of their different stuff so we got Hopper and
Joyce have a little moment together. Not that
there's really any resolution needed there. We've
got Nancy and Jonathan resolving and deciding
to break up. We've got Lucas back with Max. We've
got... What's the other pair? Dustin and Steve.
We've got Steve and Dustin as well. And now we've
got Will with his big secret to everyone. So
this is... in terms of a lot of character development
and a lot of information that we need to know.
You don't have to have big action all the time,
people. And I think that this was actually a
fairly climactic setup, which is ultimately what
the penultimate thing is. Now, of course, the
end of season five, part one, super climactic
in terms of action. Actions and powers, and that's
what everybody wanted to see. But I think it's
fair that the Duffer brothers decided that we're
going to take care of everything at home, in
our home base, at the Squawk, before we go off
to the thing that we can't restart. Because after
this, it's Game Man and it's game credits. Yes.
Well, and also, I think that this is very much
the theme of every season's penultimate episode.
Everybody gets together again. Before they separate.
And gets ready. to separate and go off and do
what they need to do. And this is very much a
literal, everyone is together in that room before
they go off and they do their own thing. So I
think that it makes perfect sense. Yeah. And
then, so my other, my other criticism is a little
bit around what's something specific to 2025.
I would love to hear from anybody who's gay,
who lived through the eighties. to explain a
little bit about what the terminology would have
been like in a scene like this. Because the impact
of this scene in 2025 is that this is another
show that's in a big fandom that has skirted
around actually saying the word gay or homosexual.
It's not said in any way, shape, or form. And
that has become a loud, blaring complaint from
the LGBTQI plus community. And so in terms of
now, I'm not part of that community, but I'm
here listening to that complaint and voicing
it here for those who aren't on the pod. And
I understand like that. It sucks to have that
happen. And they skirt around that. Now, it's
still all said it said without being said. Right.
It's clear what Will is saying, but they do skate
saying the word gay. And there is this idea that.
TV shows and movies want to be able to express
it without specifically naming it so that they
can still have people who don't approve let their
children watch because it's explainable in another
way, shape, or form. I don't know if that's true.
I don't know if that's the reason why it's done.
I don't know what Netflix is doing. That's just
speculation. But I am a little bit disappointed
that they fall into this line of other tv show
most famously off the top of my head is all the
grindelwald dumbledore stuff in the fantastic
beast series where they like just flat out would
refuse to say the word in any way shape or form
um and and so what that makes is stranger things
it just becomes part of that it's like not making
the bechdel test which obviously stranger things
passes with flying colors but like Dark Knight
doesn't pass the Bechdel test and that sucks.
And I can be as complaining about that as I can
complain about the fact that Stranger Things
falls into this category of just not being able
to say a simple word. Last big reaction of episode
seven. I had a big reaction when eight gets Eleven
to agree to essentially kill herself by remaining
behind. And there's a lot of stuff that we're
going to talk about about eight in a second.
But Eleven nodding to eight at the very end there
to indicate, yep, all right, fine. We'll do your
plan. because of this whole the u .s government
is just going to try to continue to make more
and more vechnas and we can't let that happen
it's a problem uh and and everyone's saying there's
there's got to be a different way there's there's
another way to do this like l is looking for
it mike's looking for it and that was a huge
reaction for me and for whatever reason i don't
know why i feel this way but there's still just
enough ambiguity around dr k's character because
she has not been able to talk directly with 11
where i understand that she's seeking 11 with
like a heat seeking missile right that whole
conversation with her and the soldier is very
much like oh my god she really wants 11 super
bad but i i still feels like there's enough room
to be like okay so she's doing everything in
her power just to get to her but i for whatever
reason i feel like she still might be like the
person that's creating the out 411 the other
way so that she doesn't have to kill herself.
We'll see. No, I literally while watching episode
seven and just seeing Kay's twisted up face,
just getting all of her manpower into get her
and all of this and how dedicated she is to the
evil that she is doing. I literally, while washing,
kind of laughed and scoffed. And my husband went,
what? What's going on? He doesn't watch the show.
But he was like, what? I don't understand. Why
are you laughing? It doesn't seem like it's a
funny part. And I go, Sam thinks that this person
might end up not being terrible. We'll see. I
might be horribly wrong on this. I think you're
horribly wrong. I do not see a way that she can
have any. Any turnaround. She's so committed.
Unless everything is a lie. And that would suck.
That everything is a lie would kind of be unfortunate,
I will say. Because I don't care for that type
of plot twist. Storytelling. Yeah, same. Yeah.
But I have a theory about 8 getting 11 to agree
here. Will is going with them now. Yeah. And
the plan was decided before Will was coming along.
And I think that Will is going to sacrifice himself
for Elle because he wants to see the others happy,
especially Mike, even though he's realized that,
you know, Mike was just his Tammy. But I think
that his love of his friends and everyone else,
including Elle herself. is going to make it so
that he's he will realize what eight is doing
and will put himself in the middle how does i
just my my big question around this theory is
what changes l's mind because the whole thing
is like but like will can't take vechna's blood
out of her what changes her mind in terms of
oh okay actually it's safe for me to live i mean
she's disappeared before Yeah, okay. So you think
she'll just go back to, actually, there's still
ways for me to keep fighting. Yeah, I think that
there are other ways. They have the ability to
change her name, change her face, whatever, and
go somewhere else completely unrelated to Hawkins,
just like Mike wants, and they can go disappear.
Yeah. Alright, I like the theory. I can be down
with it. Question for you, Sierra. Yes. Do these
episodes fulfill what you were expecting? I'll
lead with this. Duffer Brothers said it's going
to be a dark Christmas. And that was true from
how they lit the scenes. It was literally dark.
Yeah. But I don't think it was actually that
dark. No. I don't think so at all. It's a little
frustrating. We've talked about before the lack
of death and how these stakes are so high and
yet everybody keeps making it out by some miracle,
some sudden change of fate. Steve doesn't get
on the ladder. Nancy and Jonathan with the power
of self -actualization stop the goo. You know,
all of these different ways that everybody keeps
surviving miraculously. And I feel like they
can't then just turn around and get rid of characters.
And Duffer Brothers have even come out and said,
this isn't Game of Thrones. There's not going
to be a red wedding scene. But nobody's asking
for a red wedding scene. Well, but that was the
only way that I was thinking they were even going
to have the level of devastation that everybody
keeps promising. Yeah. Noah Schnapp had come
out and said, everybody's going to be devastated.
You know, be prepared. Have your tissues at the
ready. You know, it's going to be so sad. And
other people have stated this as well of how
you should prepare for the season finale. And
I'm going. Well, the only way we're going to
get that level of devastation is a Red Wedding
-esque massacre, essentially, of a whole bunch
of characters dying at once. And it just does
not seem like it's going to happen. So I don't
understand. Maybe it's because, for me, there
isn't one or two characters that matter enough
that it would be... that devastating if just
one or two died i so when noah said that initially
i did think immediately emotionally it's going
to be difficult for the characters not necessarily
death wise and i think that's because we're at
least going to get one character left behind
in in dimension x and the duffer brother said
you know we'll see something in terms of where
a spinoff could go it may be that Will ends up
staying behind and becomes sort of the next Henry
Creel, but they're able to shut it off for now.
It may be that anybody that has sort of Vecna's
touch in them has to stay behind. All the children,
Elle, Will, and Eight. We'll see. But I do feel
like, in my head, it's Will. Will's going to
be the one left behind. And that's that sort
of idea of, you know, you guys saved me, but
it was... I was sort of marked for death ever
since Beckner came to get me. That sort of emotional
terribleness is right there. And so you can have
that Mike -Will scene that's very Sam Frodo centered,
where it was like, yes, we saved it, but not
for me. And so that reference is then actually
not an Elle and Mike reference, but a Will and
Mike reference, which I think makes sense, especially
because those two definitely feel the most Sam
Frodo -esque, where Will is for sure. Frodo.
And Sam is definitely Mike in a weird way. So
I think that we're talking about emotional disturbance.
If they killed Dustin, I would genuinely be devastated
at this point. I just don't think that there's
enough options of... Again, there's been too
many close calls that it would feel... as if
those moments were cheapened if they then turned
around and killed them off in the finale i'm
now back to thinking that hopper might actually
be killed off especially there's this drawing
that i'm going to talk about when we talk about
the cali section that shows like it says it was
done by the duffer brothers and it says hopper's
chopper and i'm like if he's going to be in the
hop like chopper he might actually be dying like
that's a stupid plan but i i'm kind of idea i'm
kind of of the idea that hopper May die, but
I'm like, what's the point of season three? Yeah.
What's the point of Joyce dying at this point?
Like, I was genuinely concerned for Robin in
the laundry room. I was concerned for Max at
the end of episode six, being like, man, Vecta
might come in here and just wreck her right before
she gets to the exit. Especially because she'd
just shown Holly how to get out, and so now Holly
can tell everybody else how to get out. And so
Max's sort of arc may be over, especially with
Mike and Will having just had the conversation
where Mike is like, this is your, mine, Lucas,
Dustin's, and Elle's story. And he leaves out
Max. And I was like, oh, no. But now that they
haven't done any of that, I'm like, I just don't
think the finale is going to be like Rogue One.
Where they're like, and then Chirrut dies, and
then Bodhi dies. Spoilers for Rogue One. Sorry,
spoilers for Rogue One. And then everybody dies,
you know? I just don't think that they're going
to do that necessarily. Which feels very 80s
movie. If you go back and you watch a lot of
fandom 80s movies, a lot of science fiction,
think about Luke, Leia, Chewie, R2, and C -3PO
all make it out. Nobody dies. Just really Ben
Kenobi did in the first one. And so that does
feel very appropriate for like an 80s tribute.
But all of these quotes have gotten you and I
very like, oh no. And so I thought there was
going to be a slower progression of death throughout
the whole thing. And now I'm very much like,
I think maybe a character outside of eight will
die. Yeah. And like Vecna slash the mind player.
Well, yeah. Very frustrating. Well, I have a
new category that is yet to be named. However,
we did talk a lot in the last episode about references
that have been made throughout the season so
far. And so today we're just going to do the
best one. What is the best reference of these
episodes? Shall we say it on the count of three?
Yeah, you and I wrote the same one. Yes, we did.
One, two, three. Melon. Melon. If you guys don't
know what that is, that is the elf word for friend
that Gandalf says to open up the minds of Moria
in Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring.
And in the movie, the adaptation. And Mr. Clark.
Mr. Clark says it. It's incredible. It's so good.
It's so fantastic. We have one singular biggest
question because there's only really one worth
asking at this point. Who is Callie working for?
It is an enormous question that has taken the
fandom by storm. Yes. So, my theory. Callie's
working for the Mind Flayer itself. Mr. What's
-It says that he has saved the children from
the Black One, which is obviously the Mind Flayer.
Right. However, the name Callie in Hindi is literally
the Black One. Coincidence? Me thinks not. Me
thinks not. So I think she's been working for
the mind player directly. However, where I'm
slightly confused is that her blood did not work
on the pregnant women. So she says, again, this
is all through the lens of eight. How much can
she be trusted on this story that she told about
how she attempted this grand escape and she was.
10 meters from the end and etc she saw these
pregnant women who were all dying because they
had her blood and explains that this is why dr
k wants l so that's why she's saying well you
and i have to die because dr k wants your blood
and she'll just hook you up like she hooked me
up but it's only gonna work because you're the
only one like henry However, am I misremembering?
Didn't all the kids get Henry's blood? So Callie
has the same blood that Elle does. Okay. Question
mark. So that's my thing is technically if Callie's
blood is doing these to the women, then Elle's
blood should also do it because they are not
directly from the mind flayer. And Callie even
says this. She even says that. Henry's blood
only worked because he got the powers directly,
and they're basically descendants of him and
his blood, and so that generational gap makes
it so that it doesn't work for the next generation.
So why would L be any different? And she even
says, like, there's only been one that was any
different. Also, also, she hasn't been fully
taken over directly by the Mind Flayer, otherwise
her blood would work. Because Henry's does. So
there's holes in her story, first of all. Second
of all, yes, she's working directly for the mind
player. Also, there's this other little part
of it, which is just straight manipulation. Obviously,
she's manipulating Elle. And the key phrase that
she uses is she calls Henry brother. Yeah. Well,
she calls Elle sister. But Elle started the sister
thing. Right. Elle's the one who called Callie
sister first. And we know if we know anything
about Callie, it's that Callie is very self absorbed
in what she thinks is right and what she wants
to do. And it's all about her and what she can
do for herself. And so her like familial connection
with Elle and then like having this weird familial
connection with Henry does feel kind of odd,
especially since. If they are sisters because
they got Henry's blood, wouldn't that kind of
be like weirdly their dad? Because they stem
from him. So it wouldn't really be brother because
it's not the same relationship. Like two would
have been their brother, but not one. I have
many thoughts. First of all, if there isn't something
shady going on and this is just a weird acting
thing. Oh my gosh. That the actress was given
bad direction on, I'm going to be furious. Furious.
Because I think there's just so much about 8's
character. So I'm going to go over a couple of
things that I already wrote down, and then I'm
going to walk you through the thoughts that I've
been having since you've been talking to me.
Yes, please do. One of the theories that I have
is that I think this is a fairly clear reference
to the Raven Queen. The Raven Queen was an interloper
goddess of death and fate in D &D. And also Winter
from the word of Nerath. She was also a mysterious
entity from the Shadowfell. Now, there's this
lovely little Stranger Things 5 video on YouTube.
That's legit. From the official Stranger Things
account. And at this 6 minute, 23 minute mark,
there's a drawing by the Duffer Brothers of the
wormhole. They label, first of all, I think it's
really funny, they label the mind flayers. the
gross mind flayer and i was like the grossness
it's canon yes the grossness itself for those
of you who have not been listening to the whole
pod sierra and i referred to seasons three mind
flayer as the grossness because of its meat because
of its disgustingness it's gross it's gross um
but they refer to the the land that it comes
in as shadow fell So, the Raven Queen is a character
that's there, called, you know, and could be
Callie. If not the Raven Queen, there is a literal
D &D person called Callie. Callie was a strange,
terrible, interlitterate goddess of both creation
and destruction. How did we miss this? I feel
stupid. I feel like so many people have been
like, D &D this, D &D that. And here's this other
D &D thing. And like, just because Callie hasn't
been around since season two, which was so long
ago, it wasn't really prevalent. And now I'm
like, oh my goodness gracious. And you already
touched upon the Hindi and Sanskrit stuff. So
her numbers, her powers are just so different.
Really? Yeah. From numbers two through 17, obviously
minus eight. They're all much more in the way
that Eleven's powers work, which is forceful
telekinesis. Vecna's is both forceful telekinesis
and mind stuff. So there's room there that that
could be Callie's deal. However, Callie, taken
from London, not taken from Hawkins. Eight is
literally delivered by Dr. Brenner at the beginning
of the book, Suspicious Minds, into Hawkins'
lab. So by the time that she's coming in, being
brought into the program, she's... She doesn't
have any blood. And Eleven gets Henry's blood
through a blood transfusion while pregnant. So
there's some questions there as to like, wait
a second. So Callie's brought into the program,
but her mom wasn't pregnant with a blood transfusion.
So then is she given the blood transfusion directly?
I don't think so. So this makes me think that
actually Eight is not like, is not derived from
Vecna, but was taken over in London. by the Mind
Flayer directly. And this is why their powers
are a little different. There's going to be different
variants for different humans in what their brains
are capable of producing, depending on who you're
talking to. And I think that she's, whether in
Raven Queen form or whatever, is being directly
controlled. One of the other big things that
makes me think this is the way that she's speaking.
She is not speaking in her accent. She does none
of her old expectations. Now, it could just be
that she's like, recovering from being in torture
for forever. And her personality has just been
completely changed. I don't think so. It's been
a few years. Right. But I don't think so. I think
it's more like when Will is speaking through
Vecna and it sounds a little bit more like Will,
this is the mind flayer speaking through Callie.
And I think that the plan really is, you know,
I've got one super powerful telekinetic person
in Henry Creel. That I flayed from back when
he was, you know, 14 in 1959. I'm going to convince
Eleven to stay behind because she is not flayed.
Mm -hmm. I think this is the Mind Flayer attempting
to lure Eleven into its grasp so that it can
take over her. Mm -hmm. And have two hands, so
to speak. Yes, definitely. So that's my theory.
One... Additional little note on why we can figure
out that something is highly suspicious about
Callie. She knows everything. She knows about
what and Henry and all of those details and the
massacre and everything when she was not there.
So how does she know everything? How does she
know that L pushed him through? How does she
know? All of this stuff. She shouldn't be able
to. That was. There is nobody there. Who. There's
nobody that she has come across. Who could tell
her all this information. Okay. So. These are
phenomenal point. This is actually something
that you and I chatted about. But one of the
very few things that we chatted about in the
group text. Was just being like. How does she
know everything? Now I think that she's lying
about this entire story. I think. That. Dr. K
and company. found her and was able to subdue
her in the upside down. And we're keeping her
there as prisoner, not as blood transfusion packet.
I think that entire story is made up, which would
help with my Dr. K is somewhat good theory, but
also would help with that theory. I, I do. I
also questioned when she said that awful noise
of hers, pretty sure eight is the, is the noise.
Yeah. She is the one creating... Her abilities
create that sound. There's no way that there's...
That's what I thought as well. Now, they're easier
to say that they've created this mechanical thing
that repels her specific sound. But I also thought
it was her mind being used to amplify noise to
stop Vecna and not necessarily Eleven. Because
Dr. K is good and actually fighting the right
fight. I will be so happy if I'm right. This
has been the most victorious I will have felt.
That's fair. I will allow you to be victorious
if that does turn out to be so. I will wear a
championship belt on every podcast from here
on out if I'm right. Awesome. We're going to
move now very rapidly into our last little section
here. Our MVP conversation, which will be convoluted
and confusing. So dust off that card deck and
get ready to shuffle. It's our Joker category
for who is the MVP of these couple of episodes.
Now, the reason why I say confusing and convoluted
is because this is like a Dragon Age where we're
getting everybody's sort of personal notes out
of the way. But there's no main character that
is being controlled by a person to go around
to each person to do this. So, like, is it Mr.
Clark again? Is it Erica? Is it Lucas? Is it
Dustin? Is it Elle? Is it Mike? Is it Steve?
I will tell you, it is not Hopper 8, Joyce, Murray,
Robin, or Will. But Sierra, can you read us through
who have been our MVPs so far? Yes, I certainly
can. I very much can. The current MVP standings.
Everybody gets one. Season one, we had Hopper
11 and Mr. Clark. Season two, we had Nancy, Bob,
and Steve. Okay, good. Season three, we had the
Mind Flayer, Alexi, and Joyce. But that's really
a Billy Mind Flayer award. Let's be clear. Yes,
a Billy Mind Flayer combo. Yeah, for sure. And
season four, we had Robin, Dustin, and Lucas.
Okay, and then Will last episode. Yes, and then
Will in the last episode. Okay, so Robin, Dustin,
and Lucas. Man. Okay. So it is interesting here.
Mr. Clark coming in to find Dustin at the last
second is another great pound for pound argument.
I think he's in this episode just a little too
much to actually come through on the pound for
pound like he did in season one. Because now
he's kind of part of the main team. Yeah. And
that makes me be like, okay, so he's been in
enough where he's like having reactions and it's
not just essential information. Right. Erica
has not won yet. Erica hasn't really had an opportunity
to win yet. And Erica's plan to use the telemetry
tracker, which is basically to just define Mr.
Clark, maybe too many degrees removed to actually
get her to win. We'll swing back to Lucas in
a second. Elle rescues Will and saves Hopper
at eight. But also eight might be a bad guy,
so not great. Yeah, but she doesn't know that.
Yeah, that's true. I'm going to say Mike might,
might be coming in, in this weird, like sort
of Billy thing where it's like, man, Mike is
a weird part of a good amount of stuff that gets
moving. And he hasn't won at all, which like
this season, I'm like, do we recognize his, his
change for good? But I don't feel like these
three episodes have really showed that. I feel
like if you were going to give it to Mike, it
would have been the last. Yeah. It should have
been the last one. But Will, you know, had to
have the trump card on that one. And so I think.
Yeah, I really did. It really, it's difficult.
It's very difficult. So, okay, here's the people
that, the four people that I think are actually
in the running. Okay. Lucas, Dustin, Steve. Pound
for pound, Mrs. Wheeler. Ooh. I feel dirty even
saying it. It feels wrong. It does, but also
- But if we're doing a pound -for -pound argument,
she's a pretty strong candidate. She saved four
people with one action and was completely gung
-ho to continue saving people. And, like, her
entire thing was, I see lights. I'm gonna - I
know something's wrong. I hear intercom. I'm
going to go help. Here's - you know, this joke
is really not - Rips out her own IV. And just
goes. Okay, so those are my four. Mrs. Wheeler,
I, like, really do not want to give it to her,
I gotta say. I, like, don't want to do it, but
I am. We gotta talk through the other three.
Yes. Okay, so Lucas. On the Lucas note. He recognizes
that he needs to go back to Max. He recognizes
that she's, like, on the way. Does not turn off.
The radio. Sparta kicks a Demogorgon. Sparta
kicks a Demodog as well. Yeah. Yes. Sparta kicks
a Demodog to get out of the elevator. I saw this
one quick aside. I saw this one comment where
they go, did I miss something? There was a Demodog
running at. The elevator. And then it wasn't
there anymore. Did I blink? What happened to
the demodog? All the comments were just Lucas'
foot happened. And then all the, this is Sparta
me. It was so funny. I mean, they didn't show
that because they didn't want to, like, it was
going to be so expensive. And, like, it's an
awkward angle to try and show exactly where he
kicks. That's why it's not there. But, yeah,
he does. And also, he comes up with a plan to,
like, Frankenstein a dead Demogorgon. Mm -hmm.
Like, he... He does a lot. Man, he really does.
Okay, so, arguments for Steve, which kind of
become an argument for Dustin, really. Mm -hmm.
Steve is the one that gets Nancy, Jonathan, Dustin,
and himself into the abyss. That is the last
set. But he gets them there. And with that action,
they're able to find out what the exotic matter
is. They find out that it's a wormhole. They
are able to see Holly and know that they gotta
go up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up. Now, Steve
doesn't actually do any of that information finding.
But he is the one that gets them there. The person
who actually finds out and is able to read and
understand pretty instantaneously what this all
is, is Dustin. Yeah. And boy, does he provide
the essential information that they need to know.
Yes, he is back to being the information giver
of the group. He understands exotic matter. He
understands the wormhole. He knows where they
need to go and how this is all going to work.
And he names it the Abyss. Like, we get this
great name for what the Upside Down really is.
And so I feel like Dustin's case is really strong.
I feel like Lucas's case is really strong. And
I feel like Mrs. Wheeler is really strong. Now,
either way, for Lucas or Dustin, it would be
the first double win. It would. It would be.
Because we have taken away Robin. Yeah. Robin
no longer has the second MVP. Oh, gosh. I want
to give it to Lucas, and here's why. He does
the heavy lifting of coming up with a plan from
scratch. Yeah. He literally carries Max all around
that hospital, running from Demodogs, fending
them off. He then is there as emotional support
for her, and... is there to be with her, does
not turn off that radio, and then continues to
be with her and stay with her when everybody
else is going to do something else. They're the
ones left behind, which, you know, I was kind
of going, how are they going to get Max in a
wheelchair down there? I was like, oh, they're
not. Okay. And Lucas stays behind with her because
he is so devoted to her. And so I think that
that all of those things. are a little bit stronger
than Dustin finding the information. He does
interpret all the information as well. And he,
but he doesn't, he's able to explain it to everyone
later, but it doesn't, he, he isn't able to stop
Nancy and Jonathan from messing with it. He isn't.
Because of his own stupidity, him and Steve's
stupidity. I will give you that. So he isn't
able to stop that from happening. He, does get
the information to everyone else to be able to
figure out what's going on, but they would have
figured out that they had to go up just from
Holly falling, which didn't have anything to
do with him. So I think, I think, but the information
that he finds is very, very, very important and
he does disseminate it to everyone. However,
he's not coming up with information. Like it's
not. I don't know. That's kind of my line in
the sand there. I'm parsing. It's really frustrating
because his information is much more vital to
the final plan, which he doesn't come up with.
Steve is the one who comes up with, let's just
wait for it to get closer to us and then we can
climb up. Steve's the one who does that. So that's,
you know, not nothing in terms of Steve's candidacy.
But Dustin's information about what this all
is orients them to be able to create a last moment.
Now, Max does bring in some information. Yeah.
That is important in terms of when is this going
to happen and why, what is Vecna doing? Right.
In terms of making the two worlds meet. But,
so, and Lucas does have the plan with the demo
that gets Will trapped. So there is some stupidity
there. True. Because creating the hive mind actually
does not do them as much good as one would hope.
And Mrs. Wheeler doesn't help at all with the
abyss or the wormhole or any of the science behind
it. She helps with the Max and Lucas part. And
Vicky and Robin, yeah. And so I'm, yeah, I'm
leaning more towards Dustin because the implications
of his are much more impactful to orienting them
to the final plan. That's a good point. versus
Lucas and Maxis is a much more emotional connection
for the storyteller, but ultimately just creates
a little bit more of a sense of urgency and a
bit more clarity as to what's happening. To be
fair, if they didn't have Dustin's ideas, they
know that they need to go up because Holly went
up, but I think they would more likely do the
chopper theory, not realizing. That this is a
wormhole or what is even up there? Does he have
like a castle in the sky? Bowser style, you know?
This is true. Okay. That's not to say that Lucas's
case isn't, I think they're just as strong. I
think the implications towards the final plan
is what pushes me to add Dustin. Okay. And I
will go with that because I think that that's
been our theme is overall story implication.
So then the real debate has to happen. Pound
for pound. Mrs. Wheeler or Dustin. Testing. Yeah,
testing. Okay. Sorry, Mrs. Wheeler. We love you.
You are absolutely deserving. You are awesome.
There's just a candidate who's just a bit more
deserving. Yes. Today's public service announcement.
When given a choice between helicopter or ladder
for your upwards mobility, please take into consideration
if you are existing in a wormhole or trying to
reach a Bowser castle in the sky. These and other
weather factors may be vitally important. Thank
you, dear listeners, schmisseners, for listening
to this episode of Fandom Schmandom. If you'd
like to discuss this episode or any other episode
we've done, please hit us up on our social media
channels. You can find us on TikTok and Instagram
at fandomschmandompod and on X at fandom underscore
schmandom. A quick PSA for me. When in midst
of burp, please try and time it at a part where
you're not supposed to laugh at this very funny
thing that your partner on a podcast just wrote.
I did really mean to laugh. I just was in the
middle of being like... It was very funny. Kudos
to you. Wormhole trying to reach Bowser in the
sky. Excellent. You used my words and I feel
like mockery is the highest form of flattery.
Please do not forget to rate and review us if
you liked the episode. It really helps the algorithm
place us in front of other like -minded schmissioners
out there. With that, we are out, you all. Really
threw me with you all. Don't forget to tip your
oxygen tanks. Fairly well. Oh, my God. I try
to avoid it picking up nonsense. Dear listeners,
Sierra has been sick for about 18 months now.
18. She's been to the doctor 72 times in the
last four days. God. No. It feels like it. But
Sierra is actually sick and has been sick for
like, I don't know, four and a half weeks at
this point. Five weeks almost. Something like
that. When did we do that recording where you
can literally hear my voice? Did your voice break
at the end? Yeah, I don't know. My voice started
dying in the middle of the recording. Yeah, the
30th of November. Oh yeah, we did the 30th of
November. Exactly four weeks ago. Exactly four
weeks ago. So she'll be fine. But her voice might
break. Yeah, you may get very fun, like, as if
I'm just, guys, I'm just going through second
puberty. It's fine. Or menopause early. That
would be shocking. Really early. I should stress
the really. Really early. I had a big reaction
to Eleven's Superman 8. I don't remember the
word. Reactions. That's it. All right, Brett,
starting that over. That's going to end up in
the blooper reel. The two biggest reactions.
That's like something out of a Disney channel
TV show. Yeah, for real. You know, Noah Schnapp?
Schnapp? Oh, Schnapp. Oh, Schnapp, Noah. Can't
get your name right. Eep, sweep, clam. I can't
beat bugs like Sam can, so I sing a stupid song
instead. There are owls on his bookshelf. And
a book about dogs. Sam loves his wife and it's
cute. Creating a blooper reel with your singing?
Yep. All right. No, everything's good. I was
like, I can't beatbox, so I'll sing a stupid
song. One second, Brit. I have to un -highlight
all of this stuff to hide my thoughts. Okay,
so. So, so far, we have had. Oh, sorry. Goodness
gracious. We've had coughing. Nice ear. Viral
illnesses as our episode one through four MVP.
Play this new game, Helicopters and Ladders.
You only go up. weather effects and the size
of the hole that you're trying to go through
oh gosh don't forget to chip your chopper pilots