Welcome to Fandom Shmandom, the fandom podcast
that covers everything you love and more. I'm
Sam Williams on a new microphone. And I'm Sierra
Obermark on my same microphone. Today's episode,
we will be eloquently elucidating about Stranger
Things Season 4, Episode 9, the finale. Woo,
the finale! As Roger Smith says, dive on in.
And because it's the finale of the biggest show
right before the final season, we're skipping
our get up to 88 story recap because we'll be
discussing our entire episode as we dutifully
drive to Duncan's for some munchkins. Find your
donut holes. It's. Our Knives Out category, where
we sleuth out which three storylines are the
most vital to pay attention to. We have our first
storyline, the U .S .S .R. The second storyline,
The Plan. The third storyline, The Mind Fight.
And then a bonus, but we'll get there when we
get there. So the first storyline, U .S .S .R.
While waiting for Yuri to stop messing about
stalling, Joyce and Hopper finally have the kiss
we've all been waiting for. Cringed all 12 -year
-olds everywhere. But, but, but, thankfully for
all 12 -year -olds everywhere, it is interrupted
by the call from Owens that they have been waiting
for. Good. Well, they don't need to get back
to Hawkins, they decide. They need to get back
into the prison to destroy the particles or shadow
monster because it is connected to the hive mind.
Unfortunately, the Demogorgon is still loose
in the prison. Scratch that. All the demos are
loose and so is the shadow, which is in them.
And Nov or Enzo finally has convinced Yuri to
stop being a coward and get the helicopter going.
Hop has a plan, weirdly a similar plan to the
plan, and he will be bait, draw the demos into
the fenced area where he already almost died.
Joyce will then turn the fence back on to trap
them all and Murray will flambe them from above.
Joyce is understandably fearful that this is
going to turn into another Bob scenario, and
it almost does, as Hop is attacked by the Demogorgon.
But Joyce saves him by using the zap -dap -dap
-a -der -dap on the Demo. They lead the dogs
and Gorgons to the pit, where Burry roasts them
as planned. One Demogorgon survives the flambe,
and Hop is out of fire and bullets, but good
thing he has a dope sword. So, Sam. Yes. Why
is this all so important? Let me educate you.
Ah, ja? I educate you now. Okay. Das ist gut.
Sorry to all the German people out there. I apologize.
Okay, so the reason why this storyline is so
important is because it gives us a reason to
be caring about what's going on in Russia, which
seems to be a little bit of kind of what season
four is, is this finale is a lot of like, hey!
We're in three different locations, and we all
know that Hawkins is the only thing that actually
matters. So here's two other reasons why you
might be interested in Harasha and the desert.
So essentially, we're focusing in on the fact
that the shadow monster slash the particles that
Sierra and I were sort of like losing our minds
about the last couple episodes. They are alive
and well, I suppose. They seem healthy as particles
go. And that means that the hive - If one could
judge the health of particles. I'm sure some
scientist in a microscope could be like, ah,
yes, good. But the hive mind being alive in Russia
means that they can hurt the shadow monster,
which they don't know is also kind of Vecna and
- that hurt will translate to weakening the force
at large. So we know that because Vecna is sort
of plugged in everywhere, that... By hurting
a Demogorgon or Demodog or the hive mind itself
in any way, shape or form is going to weaken
the whole process overall, which is pretty important
information for us to know going into season
five, knowing that we can have people placed
all over town and attacking the hive mind and
it's going to be weakened. So this is vital information
for that reason. And also it gives us some action
back in Russia without the whole thing just being
like. Hopper, Joyce, Murray, and Enzo are in
a plane with Yuri traveling back to Hawkins.
And Will, Jonathan, Eleven, Mike, and Argyle
are in a van traveling back to Hawkins. We'll
spend six seconds on each, and the rest of it
will just be trying to flambe Vecna themselves.
But that information about the hive mind being
there and them remembering that we can hurt here
in order to help save the kids back there is
really important for us to understand. Also,
the romantic tension that's been building for
four seasons finally has its climactic, if unsatisfying,
moment. And although that may not be integral
to the Vecna storyline, although there is some
allusion to the fact that maybe love is more
powerful than hate in even Vecna and Eleven's
world. This moment between them is important
for the fandom rather than just the plot itself.
Yes, exactly. I also think one part of this storyline
that still confuses me a little bit, but I feel
is fairly important, is the emphasis that the
particles are in them. The particles have gone
into the Demogorgons, the Demodogs, etc. And
I feel, although I don't fully understand what
that is creating plot -wise and what that entails
or why that is vital, I do think that it is important
that the particles can and do go into these creatures.
Potentially it's creating a stronger connection
because Vecna has more direct control over the
particles or shadow monster being. And therefore,
if that goes into all of the demos, then all
of the demos are under more direct control by
Vecna. That seems to be the main draw there as
to why it's important. I would like to know officially.
Yes, yes, totally. That is an interesting point
about the particles. The fact that, okay, so
we have these inanimate bodies sort of suspended.
They're maybe alive in the goo, but maybe also
not alive in the goo. And that the particles
going in do some sort of control that connects
them into the hive mind. And without being that,
they're kind of just their own beast. They're
their own other dimensional beings that are on
doing their own thing versus if it's Vecna controlling
them because the particles are in, which kind
of goes back to the season one theory of like
the Demogorgon and or Vecna is the one who takes
Will. But it may be it was actually a Demogorgon,
but Vecna was controlling it. So that I hadn't
really thought much about that. That's a great
point, Sierra. Our second storyline is The Plan.
Phase one. The older teens, which are Nancy,
Steve, Robin, and Eddie, plus Eddie's little
sidekick Dusty Buns, go into the Upside Down
and meet Erica at the playground. She signals
Max and Lucas. So here is a good note. Erica
has located Vecna within the house and heads
to signal everyone to begin. However... While
she's signaling, Overzealous Citizen Number One,
which is the guy at one of the episodes that's
like, you heard Jason the basketball dude, let's
go hunting for this freak. It's not an exact
quote, but it's the spirit of what he says. It's
pretty close. So Overzealous Citizen Number One
sees her, Erica, doing all this and alerts the
basketball bros. During this time. Steve, who
just cannot help himself while they're in mortal
peril, professes his love to Nancy while Robin
is out finding their way to the house in the
Upside Down. They find it, and then have to avoid
vines as they climb their way up. Phase 2. Max
baits Vecna. So Max convinces Vecna to take her
and then runs into her memory of the snowball
middle school winter dance where Dustin is left
by his lonesome and it's one of his worst memories
ever. But for Max, she is with Lucas for the
first time and they kiss. But of course, then
her memory starts to turn as Vecna finds her.
During this time, Jason... While Max is being
sort of mind -robbed, Jason comes into the house
and finds Lucas and Max, and he draws a gun on
Lucas, ordering him to wake Max up. And Erica,
just so that we can know that Erica can't do
anything during this time, is tackled by Basketball
Bro number one. Phase three. Dustin and Eddie
draw the bats away. After prepping the trailer
for combat, Eddie... goes onto the roof, and
absolutely shreds. Master of puppets. To lure
the demo bats away. Eddie and Dustin escape into
the trailer once it's clear the bats are distracted,
and fight them for a time before Dustin escapes
back to Hawkins. But Eddie decides to buy them
more time and cuts the rope leading back up into
Hawkins, taking off on his bike to lure the bats
farther away. During this time, Nancy, Steve,
and Robin are attacked and trapped by the vines,
which, who could have seen that coming? Everyone.
That's right, everyone could. Max has been found,
and Vecta forces her to see the terrible situation
all her friends are in, which, keep that in mind
for later discussion. Lucas tries to reason with
Jason, but after that plan fails, he realizes
he never wanted to be like Jason in the first
place, and attacks him. The natural... It's his
natural instinct. I don't want to be like, you
punch! The distraction of the fight gives Erica
a chance to fight back, too. Dustin jumps back
through the gate in Eddie's trailer and subsequently
breaks his ankle and runs slash hobbles after
Eddie, who is fighting the Demobats alone. Never
fear, Max. Elle is here. But Max is already risen
and partially broken boning when Elle battles
and throws Vecna away. Max falls to the ground
where Lucas catches her, as he's already taking
care of Jason in the meantime. Vecna is being
thrown around by Elle, and that causes the vines
to release the older teens. Phase four, flambe.
Steve, Nancy, and Robin burn and shoot Vecna
multiple times with Molotov cocktails, thank
you to the Russians, and a shotgun that Nancy
has, because she's Nancy. He shot and burned
so much that he falls out the window. But when
they look for his body, it's gone. Dustin reaches
Eddie at last and holds him as he dies. Cue the
sad Obermark. Dun, dun, dun. And he promises
to be the new shepherd for his lost Hellfire
Sheep. Which also, what a cool mascot that would
be. Hellfire Sheep? Love it. Erica gets into
the house to see Max is awake, but Max can't
see or feel anything, and Lucas begs her to hang
on. But time is up. The clock chimes four times,
and the gates open, cutting Jason in half during
this and spreading across the ground to converge
at the center of Hawkins, creating the gate to
Vecna and Hell. That's the overmark. That's the
death sound. Dun, dun, dun. I mean, a lot of
people died during the game opening, so. Cue
the overmark then. Dun, dun, dun. All right.
So, Sierra, what is so important about this four
phase dessert to flambe plan? Other than everything.
Let's get to. the basic details that really make
this vitally important. So we have this plan,
which is a great plan, and honestly gets them
exactly where they need to go, which is right
in front of Vecna at a time when he's vulnerable.
That in and of itself, very important to be able
to meet him when he is in a position where he
is not in full. I suppose. And so when he's distracted
by one thing, they can go in and find his what
they think is an essentially helpless body as
his mind is off doing all of the other things
of chasing Max and fighting L. However, I think
another really important thing about this is
that he is pretty not necessarily indestructible.
But pretty indestructible. Yeah. You know, he
is set on fire. He is shot multiple times. And
he is still alive, as much of an alive situation
as Vecna is right now. It's kind of one of those
not really sure how much is still human, how
much is still living, and how much is pure telepathic
energies at this point. I also think just the
general fate of all of our characters is really
in the balance here. Obviously, we have the very
emotional and touching Eddie and Dustin sequences
where Eddie is the only one of the main crew
to officially perish during this plan, which
is pretty brutal, but also... potentially something
we could have seen coming because the kind of
most loved new character in each season tends
to be that person. So it's no less upsetting,
however. And I also think that the show does
a really good job in this whole section about
showing the stakes because it does really feel
like we could lose a lot more of them. Yes. And
I'm... almost disappointed that we don't, but
I get it. I get it, but at the same time, I am
a little bit disappointed that we don't. Now,
granted, Max is not in good shape, and while
alive, barely. And technically wasn't, and now
is. We'll get there. But we have really high
stakes for all of these characters. Each one
of them is in a life -threatening situation,
and I also think the fact that not all of them
are in these life -threatening situations specifically
because of Vecna, thinking of mainly Lucas here,
is also very interesting because it's showing
that not only do we have this main storyline
that we're following and this main villain and
everything, but we also have the rest of the
population at large. involved in this it's not
just an insular event that's taking place just
within this group of people there are other people
who are in the town or in the world who are affected
by this and i think seeing jason caught up in
the middle of what he doesn't understand he thinks
he understands he doesn't understand and then
ends up dying because of it very much leads us
towards the fate of Hawkins. And then also going
into what season five will be with, I expect
that we will see much more of the impact that
this event has had on the general surroundings
and not just Hawkins itself, but the community
at large in Indiana, in the United States, something
of that nature. I think. You bring up Jason,
and I think that's really interesting because
this storyline also shows the hubris of overconfidence.
And I forget what the effect is called, but it's
really interesting to me that in the 90s at some
point, there was this bank robber who went into
banks completely no face coverings. And he looks
right at the camera, and he does this at a couple,
I think, at a couple different banks. And when
he's arrested, he's like, there's no way you
could see my face. What? Because lemon juice
alters the camera in some way, shape, or form.
Like the actual film, you can use lemon juice
to blur it. And so he was so confident that by
putting lemon juice all over his face, it would
block it from a security camera. And there's
a name for this effect, but essentially it is
the study of the... If you know way too little
about something, you have a much more strong
likelihood to be confident that you know everything
about it. And that to me is what Jason is demonstrating
here is the norm, like sort of the layman's normalcy
and how much hubris you can have with that. In
other words, like. When you don't know, but you
think you know, you're going to have way too
much confidence. And he walks into something
that he does not know. And I think that's a really
cool moment. And of course, Lucas has that moment
with him where he's like, I thought I wanted
to be just like you. Talking to Jason. And then
I realized that normalcy is psychotic. This idea
of trying to fit in to be something that you're
not is so against human, like your innate humanness.
That to do so is psychotic, which is a very strong
message. And it's again, it's coming from people
who are writing a fantasy show that's also horror
and D &D all put into one. You know, they're
probably coming from a background similar to
you and I were like, nerds are great. I don't
understand why people are hating on nerds. And
I also think that that moment is a much better
version of the same sort of storyline that they
were going for in season one with the Troy. I'm
going to cut out this guy's baby teeth, which
was so overdone, right? Like these normal jock
bully things that are absolutely psychotic. And
you get like the same level of crazy where Jason
is like, I'm pulling a gun on you to try and
kill you because I don't understand what's going
on. But it's so much better planned out and so
much more well -deserved for the moment. And
so I really, that Jason moment to me is so important
for what the show is kind of talking about. And
also, this sense of normalcy and wanting to be
normal is what causes Vecna to be so sort of
out of his mind. So I think that's a really compelling
sort of subtextual part of this whole story.
Of course, the actual battle plans around his
body will be completely available to attack.
When he's out attacking Max is a huge part of
the information that we must know and get to
see. As well as the ability for Eleven to piggyback
in such a way. Where she's in fighting inside
Max's head. Of course, that messes up Max quite
a bit. But it's really, really, really important
information for us to know. So those couple things.
There's so much in there. You could go on and
on and on. But we must, alas. Keep it under six
hours. I did look it up. It is the Dunning -Kruger
effect. Thank you. If anybody wants to do a little
bit more research. It is fascinating. Well, speaking
of Elle, our third storyline, The Mind Fight.
So, Argyle has a plan. Finally. What a pull from
Argyle here. Mr. Tire Treads Equal Military Vehicles
has a plan to get Elle into a sensory deprivation
tank, and Elle has the plan to piggyback into
one's mind using Max's mind, which sounds very
complicated and good on her. Jonathan and Will...
Meanwhile, kind of had this much needed heart
to heart, which I really enjoyed. I thought it
was a really nice moment. Elle, though, is the
important part here. She hops in, she finds Max,
and she gets to this memory of Max skating as
a child. But there is evidence of the snowball
within this memory. Yeah, that's really cool.
Elle stands there. Yes, it's very, very interesting
how she's able to kind of follow. Max through.
She then stands at the DJ booth for the snowball
for entirely too long because where the absolute
poop nuggets is Elle and what is she doing just
standing there? She takes her sweet time, but
just as Vecna is about to fully kill Max, Elle
grabs him using her powers and throws him and
the fight begins. Vecna goes from using three
fingers to five fingers and therefore L is seriously
outmatched. He throws her into his lair and she
is pinned by vine tentacles and Vecna forces
her to watch Max become the final victim. We
get Vecna's final story, how he found the shadow
monster once Eleven had forced him through to
the Upside Down, and he formed the shadow monster
into the image he wanted, which is why it looks
so spidery. He used it to attack once Eleven
had opened the gate after she touched the Demogorgon,
and then he used it again to build the army in
order to gain Eleven's power and open gates of
his own. It looks like all is lost. Eddie is
pinned down and dying. Erica can't get to Lucas,
who is being choked out by Jason. Hop is being
attacked by a Demogorgon. Steve, Nancy, and Robin
are all being strangled by vines. And in this
moment, Mike calls out to Elle, giving her a
rousing speech about how much he loves her. She
fights back, and she throws Vecna away from Max,
holding... Vecna in place and giving her friends
time to finish him. He vanishes from Elle's sight
as he burns. Elle joins Lucas in crying over
Max, just trying to hug her friends, and then
Eleven heals her? Yeah. Wow. So Sam. Yes. What
would you like to ask? I would like to ask, besides
my heels, major questions. What about this section
do we really need to keep in mind? Why is this
so, so important? All right. I'll tell you the
one thing that we don't need to keep in mind
is anything that Mike says. Actually, that's
so untrue. Okay. Yes. So we can understand that
L. is piggybacking into Max's mind and they're
having a fight within somebody else's mind that
messes somebody up. That could be a new setting
that we have for mind fights moving into season
five, especially if Will turns out, comes in
and has some mind fights, or if Eight comes back
in. Right. There's a big theory right now that
Eight is hinted at at the beginning of this season.
There's a moment where the... D &D group Hellfire
is playing for their championship moment, and
the basketball team is playing for their championship
moment. And Vecna, the actual villain set up
by Eddie in Hellfire, is being taken out, and
Dustin's the only one who can do it. He rolls,
what number? 11. And does it work? It does not.
But at the exact same moment, Lucas rises up
and takes a shot and wins the championship. What
number is he wearing? Eight. So there's some
theory out there that people are saying, well,
you have to have eight in order to help take
down one. Eleven can't do it by herself. So we
might have eight coming in. We might have new
number 12, Will, coming in and with his power.
So we might have multiple stages for mind fights
or mind transportations or mind piggybacking
in some way, shape or form. The fact here that
Vecna has not used two hands, he's gone from
three fingers to a whole hand in his fight is
also worth a notice that we've got maybe only
half of Vecna's powers being used is quite terrifying.
In terms of Max and L, it does seem that L heals
Max. How? Well, we have to look back a little
bit to Mike's rousing speech. So we've got benched
Will because Will apparently is going to be so
important for season five that they had to really
bench him for the entirety of season four. So
Will's big moment is telling Mike that he's got
this big moment of telling Elle that she's this
big moment and that he loves her. That's how
many degrees removed Will is from this entire
story. So Will tells Mike, Mike, you got to keep
going. You got to keep pumping her up. You're
the heart. You're the heart. You're the heart.
And he's like, okay, I'm the heart. I love you,
Elle. I know I haven't said it in over a year,
but I love you. And I'm just so scared that you're
going to dump me because I'm a terrible loser.
Well, no, he doesn't say that. He insinuates
it. He insinuates. He intimates. He alludes to
his loserdom. So he has this big speech. And
Elle, zerped up with feelings of not hate, like
she was in season two. But Love is able to overcome
Vecna at that moment, starting this chain reaction
of people starting to win instead of dying, which
is good. So thanks be to Mike for a little MVP
moment there of getting the ball rolling on Elle,
saving everybody else. He is the springboard
to her VP status. So then. L, sad, sad, sad,
mad, mad, mad, while Max is dying. And then has
this moment of no, like determination that seems
to come with a moment of calmness and serenity
that she then uses to heal Max's body. But maybe
not her mind. That has yet to be determined.
It may be that Vecna has absorbed Max like everybody
else, but the body remains healthy. Because remember,
he... Hold on to everybody with him. That's what
Brenner tells us. And that's what Vecna tells
Nancy. So we'll see. Does Max need to be unlocked
from some sort of mind palace of Vecna? We'll
not know. Then the real sort of origin stories
about Vecna that he sort of Bond villain monologues
to Elle. So Vecna has never been to another dimension.
Elle. is the one who has that power. L, as a
small eight -year -old, something around that,
forces Vecna against this wall and accidentally
pushes him into another dimension. Dimension
X is what it's called. This dimension ends up
being the Upside Down, but it is not the Upside
Down as we know and see it. If you go back and
you look at those clips, it's more like Vecna's
house. That Max draws out. It's sort of this
red color. It's not this imprinted Hawkins on
the Dimension X. It seems, my theory is, of course,
that Will is the one who creates this. Will's
mind is so powerful that it imprints on Dimension
X. And that is what creates the upside down sort
of like dark Hawkins version. But it's not. So
he goes to Dimension X, and that's where he meets,
or if you watch the play, which we'll talk about
next episode, he re -meets the Shadow Monster.
There, he and the Shadow Monster form some sort
of partnership that he's kind of in charge of,
and create this army and this future moving forward.
But he himself cannot leave. He cannot leave
dimension X slash the upside down. He needs somebody
else to open the door. That's L's special power.
And so when L opens the door, he's able to very
quickly force his presence back into our world.
But he keeps getting pushed back and he keeps
getting pushed back. And so he realizes he needs
to absorb. El's power. So that weird goo thing
that's in her leg at the end of season three,
when she gets attacked and is weakened severely,
that seems to have done the trick where now Vecna
can open his own portals. That doesn't answer
Sierra and my question from season one, which
is how are the Demogorgons opening their own
portals? Is it just weak, weak gates that Demogorgons
can pop through or is it Demogorgons controlled?
By Vecna that he like knows soft sports. Like
what's, what's happening there. We still don't
know, but that's essentially in that last part,
all that sort of shadow monster stuff of like,
I was stuck here. I formed up with the shadow
monster. It's been me the whole time, which I
have a question for you, Sierra. When you first
watched this, did you go? Yes. Excellent. I'm
so glad that this has been Vecna the whole time.
Or were you like me? Kind of a bit disappointed
that the shadow monster seems to be an underling
working for a bigger boss. A little disappointed.
Yeah. It was a little, well, not to draw a comparison
to another franchise, but it was a little Palpatine
-y to me. Turns out, again, it was Palpatine
all along. It does bother me just a little bit
when... We just can't have multiple villains.
I get maybe trying to lean away from a monster
of the week type of theme of this season has
this villain and this season has this villain
and this season has this villain by saying, oh
no, there was a plot. There was a mastermind
behind it all. A little Moriarty, I suppose.
Yeah, very. As well. You know, all of these villains
are operating, but oh, they all report to the
same big bad. It's difficult for me. I was a
little let down. I think that if maybe we had
had more overt Vecna mentionings throughout the
first few seasons, it wouldn't have bothered
me as much, but it did feel slightly deus ex
machina of, hey! This guy's actually controlled
the whole thing. Yeah. And I want, I wanted it
to be more because the shadow monster is, is
a very compelling, the mind, you know, mind flayer
in and of itself is a very compelling, not character
per se, but you know what I mean? So I, that,
that villain through silence, that complete like
unknown is such a terrifying concept. And I think
I'm right there with you where, you know, we
saw in season three the bell ringing, right?
And we both went, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
On a rewatch, that's crazy. And I've got another
bell ringing sort of further along in our discussion
that we'll talk about where it's like, okay,
so they have been planning some sort of Vecna
-ish thing the whole time. But I think it's like,
it's so Vecna -like and so Vecna tiny hidden
for like rewatch sake rather than a build. In
season three, you start to get a little bit of
it. And then season four, it's just so heavy.
Like, here he is. This is the guy. And then to
just be like, it's been him the whole time. That
moment is supposed to be this huge revelation.
And I don't, through the fans that we talk to,
I haven't found very many people that were like,
oh my gosh, like, what a mind catastrophe that
was for me. I just was overwhelmed and I had
no idea. And it's just, it's more like, oh, oh,
okay. And I think that's because we all hope
that the Mind Flayer has some sort of autonomy.
And so I hope a little bit that they retcon this
and that the Shadow Monster, the Mind Flayer
does have some. It certainly seems so with the
play. To tease a little bit about what we'll
be talking about next episode, Vecna's been to
Dimension X one time before and connected with
the Mind Flayer. And that is what seems to give
him his powers. So, it seems like there's a little
bit more of a tit -for -tat between the two of
those. And the influence that the Mind Flayer
has on him seems to be where a lot of the darkness
comes from. So, I don't know that Vecna's being
entirely truthful when he's like, I'm the one
who's been controlling this the whole time. Ugh.
Okay. But how... As much as I was slightly let
down by... Vecna was behind it the whole time.
If it does turn out the Mind Flayer is behind
it the whole time and essentially created and
molded and used Vecna to be able to do all these
things, that would be interesting. I would be
very happy with that. I would be very, very happy
with that being an outcome here. Yeah, certainly.
But we'll see. We'll see. We are so aligned about
our thoughts on Stranger Things. Somebody out
there right now is being like, no, it should
be Vecna the whole time. And both of us are like,
no, if it ends up that the Mind Flayer has actually
orchestrated this whole thing and Vecna thinks
he's in charge and actually at the end of season
five, it's going to be Vecna sort of turn coding
on the Mind Flayer. And in fact, you know, he's
only been like the assistant and he thinks he's
been in control. You and I will love that. But
there are definitely people out there who are
like, no, it makes more sense if it's reflecting
L and Brenner and all this stuff and being like,
well. Right. Sure. A little column A, a little
column B. Argue with us. In the comments. I'm
joined. In the comments. Yes, please. So our
bonus little mini storyline. Two days later,
after all of this has taken place, there is a
mass exodus from Hawkins. Right as the Californian
and Russian crews arrive and everyone is back
together again. We are reunited in moments that
range from nice to absolutely sob -worthy. Everyone
is helping out with the relief efforts. And the
standout moment of this is Dustin commiserating
with Eddie's uncle. Absolutely beautiful moment.
Maybe his best acting performance on the show.
Dustin's actor. I may agree with you. I may agree
with you. I feel like I need to pinpoint a few
other moments because he does have quite a number.
But it is very understated and beautiful. However,
everyone begins to notice an odd gray snowfall
outside. And those who know... No, that it's
particles from the Upside Down. Hop, Joyce, Will,
Mike, Elle, Nancy, and Jonathan see nature dying,
becoming corrupted, just as it is in the Upside
Down. And we roll credits. Ugh. I just imagine
one of those characters has snapped a photo with
the particles and captured it. If you know, you
know. If this took place in 2025, yes. Right,
of course. No cell phones, no hashtags, no X,
no nothing. Okay, so the really important moment
here is that we get a lot of closure for the
show. In this moment, we also get Jonathan being
like, glad you were here, like better than just
being Steve. And Nancy, who's still dating Jonathan
and very much a kind of a flipped moment from
the end of season one. where she's still dating
Steve, but interested in Jonathan. Now she's
still dating Jonathan, and she has not told Steve
to back off from his love. With his dreams of
six babies with her. Dreams of six kids and traveling
in an RV. Because Nancy has not told Steve to
knock it off, there's this whole other meaning
when Jonathan's like, oh man, I'm so glad you
were here, better than it just being Steve. And
Nancy looks over at Steve. lustfully, looks back
at Jonathan and goes, he's not so bad now. He's
grown up a lot. And Jonathan's like, oh, okay.
And then he's like, hey, are we okay? She's like,
yeah. And we're like, oh, cool. So a little love
triangle going into season five where one of
her boys will be killed. Oh, yeah. Or both. Or
both. Or her. Oof. Dear Lord. I'm so scared for
everybody dying. Of course, now we also have
everybody back together and we get this moment
of sort of, hey, Will's super important. And
now we've had a couple of articles of the Duffer
Brothers since this is all coming up going like,
this show's about Will. And Sierra and I being
like, it is? Season four. It's not about Will
at all. I swear this is a show about Ellen Hopper,
but okay. I mean, it is about Will. The first
two seasons are so about Will. Oh, yeah. And
like we said, it seems like Will's so integral
to this whole thing that that's why they benched
him in season four. But we do have Will feeling
the back of his neck with that chill, reminding
us that he's somehow super connected to Eleven.
Also, interesting theory that's popped up about
Will is that... Vecna may be in control of more
people than you think. So we know from Joyce
that Will's birthday is March 22nd. In one of
the video clips of, I think it's the skating
rink or something of that nature in season four,
you see that it's March 22nd and nobody is celebrating
Will's birthday. Now, the Duffer brothers did
put out a statement saying that this was an administrative
error and they didn't realize that they'd set
out this time. But some people are calling foul
on that. The theory is that Vecna is starting
to wipe away memories of Will. How do you escape
Vecna? Through memories, like Max is doing at
the snowball. That's how you protect yourself.
So if people are having less memories of Will,
he'll start to be more susceptible to Vecna's
powers. Now, this is all a theory. But if you
go back and you look at one of the Season 4 posters...
They have this one where it's like all of these
characters in little like rectangles. So it's
or somebody has compiled it into that where everybody
had their own each individual character thing.
Everybody is looking forward at the camera in
their poster except for four characters. The
first one is Max. What do we know about Max in
season four? She's under Vecna's control. Who
else is looking off to the side instead of straight
at the camera? Jonathan. Joyce and Mike. So it
may be interesting that Vecna is slowly trying
to erase information about Will so that Will
cannot escape his control again. So that's theory
number one. Theory number two about Will is really
interesting to me because it has to do with D
&D lore around the character Vecna, which maybe
we're working too much into the D &D lore, but
given the Duffer Brothers, A whole love of that
game and the way that Stranger Things has been
written, I don't think this is. So I'll quote
from some TikTok user named The Film Stuff, which
is where we got this. In Dungeons and Dragons,
the eye of Vecna is a legendary artifact. To
use it, someone must sacrifice one of their own
eyes and replace it with Vecna's. The reward
is extraordinary. The host gains. What does Will
have in season two? True Sight, which means seeing
through illusions, darkness, and even invincibility,
along with the power to cast devastating spells
such as Disintegrate, which can reduce a creature
or object to nothing but dust, and Dominate Monster,
which allows the wielder to seize telepathic
control over any creature. But there's a catch.
When someone other than Vecna wields the eye,
it begins to corrupt them. The artifact twists
the host toward evil, threatens their soul, and
can even allow Vecna to take control of their
body. Now, of course, in Stranger Things, the
film stuff goes on. Who has always been marked
by Vecna in the Upside Down? Who was taken over
by the Shadow Monster and forced to act as a
host? Will. So, this also includes a risk of
exhaustion. And again, quoting, the eye of Vecna
includes the risk of exhaustion if it is activated
repeatedly. Now, they have an image from season
five where Mike is protecting Susie Kins, by
the way. She's in this still shot. It looks like
Joyce is holding on to Will, and he looks absolutely
exhausted in this shot. We'll put this on the
TikTok, y 'all, so that you can see it. We'll
re... Post -it. And then if you look back at
the poster one last time, Will's bicycle matches
exactly up with Vecna's clouded over eye that
you can hardly see the pupil in, if at all. One
last thing, there's a lightning strike above
Vecna's head that looks like a human, right?
And there's Vecna's hand. The hand is another
legendary artifact. To use it, the host must
cut off their own and attach Vecna's in its place.
It grants enormous magical power, the ability
to cast deadly spells, and even regeneration.
Who was just kind of regenerated and healed?
Max. By who? Eleven. The lore in D &D says that
the eye and the hand of Vecna must be attached
to the same person in order to be finally destroyed.
And the only way is for that host to then be
slain by the Sword of Kass. This could mean that
Eleven and Will are bound together in Season
5 Endgame. And then I'll put my own tidbit here.
And then also both of them have to be killed
in order to defeat Vecna. That's where I'll stop
that theory on. But it's a fascinating little
theory there. Very, very interesting. I think
for the first theory of... the posters, and the
date. So, as for the date, I can see a small
mistake. I can also see, you know, this is a
show that had clock chimes. Four seasons before
they were relevant. Yeah. So it is possible that
it is intentional. I feel that the Duffer brothers
wouldn't have come out and just straight up said,
no, this is why this happened. You know, oops.
If I don't think they would straight up lie to
us. I think potentially that could very well
really be an oversight. And I think that the
posters. From someone who has a mild graphic
design background, having them all look in the
exact same direction would be fairly boring.
And you do want some variety in your single character
posters when you are creating a promo material.
So I do feel like those can fairly easily be
explained away. And I do like the idea, though,
that Vecna is in more control than we think.
I also don't know that I see in the existing
show how he could have done this and be erasing
Will without having direct contact with any of
the people, obviously besides Max, who we know
he's had direct contact with. I don't know that
we can figure out exactly how Vecna would have
control over the minds of Jonathan, Joyce, and
Mike. So I kind of want to debunk that one. I
like the idea, but I think it can be easily explained
away. I'm right there with you. I'm 100 % with
you. I think that theory is really interesting
and has gained some traction. And it's like a
fun little thoughts piece. But I think, I mean,
it would be very easy to go back in and change
March 22nd to be March. 24th or whatever right
uh and and but i'm not that conspiracy s and
also like i think a lot of us got burned by theories
like this in game of thrones yeah and so i'm
feeling a little wary of this one which is fun
but i think hardly backed up but go ahead with
the next theory the second theory i think has
some more credibility just based on the fact
that vecna is a dnd character that they did go
ahead and continue to call him Vecna within the
show, not just taking ideas. I know that there's
a lot of theories about the eye of Vecna being
an important element potentially in the next
season and who has it and are we going to see
because especially we have the visuals of him
potentially not having his eye or it being. You
know, clouded over and whatnot. And if that means
that someone else is currently in possession
of it or will be in possession of it is a very
interesting idea that I think has a lot more
credibility. And even if it's not the physical
eye, it could still be the representation of
it as they have done within the show already.
And I do think that many of our characters are
in. Very great danger. And it seems weird to
say I hope, but I hope a lot of them do perish.
Yeah, I think it's more satisfying for the narrative.
Exactly. It will be much more satisfying for
what we've been building to and especially the
stakes that all of those will occur within, I
think, have the potential to be incredible. So
the idea that we would continue this D &D thread.
that we have been pulling on since the opening
sequence, you know, opening sequences in season
one, I think would be really great. And I, I
do really want more of that fantasy world to
come through into this more sci -fi, more sci
-fi element. Yeah. I, I want to be clear with
the audience, just so that we don't sound like
we're heartless. On a scale of, like, rolling
Battle of Hogwarts to Game of Thrones, I want
somewhere in between on character tests. Because,
like, Game of Thrones was, like, at the very
end there, you were like, wow, this White Walker
battle is going to decimate a lot of people.
And there was, like, this whole second room with
Jaime Lannister in it, and everyone was like,
that whole room is going to die. And then we
got to the end of the battle against the White
Walkers. Sorry for spoilers, y 'all. I should
have put that in a little bit earlier. But we
get to the Battle of these White Walkers and
it's like, eh, a couple, like two main characters
were killed and everybody else gets to keep going
on. And then like you kind of get more mass violence
later, but it all feels rather unsatisfying.
Versus Battle of Hogwarts, it's like, wait, oh
my gosh, I need to go back and reread that chapter.
Who died? We walked into the hall and there's
a whole line of bodies. And there's a whole line
of important bodies that like you get no closure
with. It's like, all right, so Lavender Brown
maybe is dead. Remus and Tonks and Fred and like
you just keep going on. You're like, and Colin
Cravey? Did I just read that right? Is it Colin
Cravey? Like the photographer? And I don't need
that. But I do think it is in order to give a
sense and a semblance of danger. Right. Of real
stakes. We can't have it just keep being. Barb,
Bob, Billy, and Eddie. Who I really want it to
come out that his first name was Bartholomew
and then he went by his middle name. Just so
we get that B, that fourth B there. But I think
that's important for us to feel stakes. I feel
as though someone like Murray or Yuri is going
to perish fairly early on to establish that.
Sort of the way that Star Trek used to do red
shirts, where at the beginning of the episode,
they would kill off somebody wearing a red shirt,
and that way you'd know it's real. There's danger
here. There's danger here! Keep your finger on
the pause button and rewind that tape. It's the
prestige category. What did we notice on this
watch through? Sierra, is this a terrible plan?
Like, how did - They not think the hive mind
wouldn't get them. I don't know that it's a terrible
plan. It's the only one they have. It is the
only one they have. And to be fair, they have
a number of distractions so that at least the
majority of this hive mind isn't paying attention
to the important chess pieces moving into position.
It goes pretty well for quite some time. For
quite some time. And then it goes terribly. And
then it goes terribly wrong. However, this is
also a group of human teenagers with no special
abilities who just know interesting things fighting
against a... supernatural hive mind creature
telepathic being conglomerate of evil. That's
true. You're not wrong. I think they do plan
for the hive mind. They have the Eddie Dustin
distraction specifically for what they think
will try to defend Vecna. They know not to step
on the vines. Potentially, they think it's a...
Potentially, they think it's a physical interaction
-only scenario and that the vines, while part
of the hive mind, really will only move in reaction,
kind of Venus flytrap -esque. Which, honestly,
I probably would think, too, from their experiences
with the vines. Yeah. And so... They do a pretty
good job of attempting. I don't think it's terrible.
Okay. It's not great. They really - I just -
They almost succeed. They do. They almost succeed.
And yet, this is no game. No. You know, it's
not like they have a second life. So, they entail
some outside forces from Russia and the desert.
Intervene. They are dead. Right. Besides a potentially
terrible plan, something that I find bothersome.
Elle's outfit? I know this seems nitpicky, but
it really took me out of the episode. I know
that that shirt and that type of shirt was popular.
I even in the 90s and early 2000s wore many like
it, but I was also a child and... Now, or, you
know, I guess, no, no, I was definitely a child
at the time that I was wearing that. Now the
look very much comes across like she's wearing
pajamas to me. At least the shirt. And then she's
got the high -waisted pants, which again, makes
sense for the time period that she is in, but
she's also supposed to be a child, very early
teen. 14. 14. And we're focusing. way too much
on her body for it to be comfortable for me yeah
i'm there with you it makes me slightly uncomfortable
how much they have framing her in the shot and
then we have these high -waisted pants and we
have this shirt and it just it really takes me
out and it feels very awkward and i know that
it's not about what she's wearing And this is
absolutely nothing on Millie Bobby Brown. She
didn't choose the costume. So it just really
took me out. And then this is more important,
but also something that really couldn't have
been changed at this point. Millie Bobby Brown
being too old for a 14 -year -old. makes Vecna's
interactions with her creepier to me almost like
he's preying on her rather than looking at her
more like a potential daughter who could have
followed in his footsteps something of that nature
more of a mentorship I think it comes across
much more creepy which I guess good but also
maybe not what we're going for here um however
I do think that if all of the kids, teens, looked
younger, like their characters are supposed to
be, Mike's whole I love you speech would have
less of an impact. Maybe? That's my thought.
Kids don't know what love is. At least romantic
love between each other. You know, I think that...
That the age that they're supposed to be this
kind of 14 is maybe when people are starting
to kind of try to figure it out and might have
some sort of semblance idea, but it definitely
wouldn't feel as impactful. Like, I love you
coming from a 14 year old. That's like, okay.
Yeah, totally. And now if you were a 14 year
old and you are still with the person that you
were with at 14, I mean, good on you, but. Yeah.
I don't have that experience. I don't have that
experience. I don't think that it's very common.
I think what's interesting here is Vecna's supposed
to be kind of parroting Brenner accidentally,
where he's doing the same thing, where he's now
wanting to father a child that is not his, and
for specific purposes that go with him in a way
that makes him feel a sense of control. Yeah,
definitely. But but it's hard to feel that way
when instead of being 14 and 38, they're 21 and
33. Right. So a little different. Mm hmm. OK,
so I know I pick on Mike a lot. Is Mike being
the heart too cliche and boring for you, Sierra?
Honestly, I just don't think it makes sense.
Yes. Thank you. I don't think it makes sense
at all. When? Has he been the heart of the group?
He's been the heart for Elle. Yeah, maybe. But
for the group? She's not the group. I would argue
Will's the heart out of all of them. And, you
know, I just, Will saying, Mike, you're the heart.
You're the heart. It feels very odd because.
Will is the one who has most suffered at Mike's
not being the heart. Ditching him for Elle, ditching
him for other people. Not wanting to play D &D
with him. Yeah, not wanting to be with him, not
wanting to hang out with him. Being on the receiving
end of Mike's jab at Will not liking girls. And
it's just... It just really does not track for
me. And it's not just Will that he's done all
these things to. He hasn't treated Lucas and
Dustin with all that much love and care. So in
the first season, I think Mike very much is the
heart because he's the one that's like, Will's
alive. Will's doing this. And here's Elle. And
I'm taking care of her just off the street. And
I could bring us all together. And I think that,
OK, you have a real. Through line for that. And
Mike is there for Will in a way that Dustin and
Lucas is not in season one. Yes. Mike also stands
up for Dustin in a way that is very much a heart
when faced with Troy as well. Yes. Yes, very
much so. In season two, the same thing is true
to a lesser extent that Mike is like there to
help Will, right? His whole storyline is like
helping Will out and telling him that he is.
the, you know, the site inside and he can be
the enemy. And there's like some good hearted
moral, like here's where we can go forward with
this sort of stuff. But I don't really think
he's been the heart since then. I don't know.
I think Max is really helping. Max and Lucas
are really helping out. And Dustin are like my
main sort of through line in season three with
Steve and Robin and then Lucas and everybody.
But, and then season four, he's, he's benched.
Yeah. I like won't tell L that. He loves her,
and I'm just kind of like, okay. I just feel
like Mike is being pushed into this category
that I certainly don't feel he's earned. No,
I would agree. Okay, cool. Again, we agree too
much, and there's somebody out there going, no!
He's the best of them! What do you mean? Okay.
Why does Mike professing his love do anything?
Isn't 11 powers motivated by hate? Or is this
more a love is actually more powerful moment,
Sierra? I almost feel like it's more along the
lines of there's still hope out here. Remember
what you're fighting for? Which I get. And I
think that that's a valid thing. I also don't
quite understand why Mike loving her. helps because
it does seem like later on we have her love of
max is is what allows her powers to be so strong
and i think that also literally watching max
dying before her you would think that again her
her friendship and her love with max is what
would be the most important thing and so i think
It is a little odd, but I do feel like it is
really moving into the love is actually more
powerful thing. Which, again, I've been harping
on since season two that I feel like that should
have happened already. But I guess we're getting
it now through Mike, question mark. Through my
question mark, I also think it's interesting
that they are trying to introduce it so late
into the show as a way to power up over Vecna.
I know that this has been sort of billed as a
children's story, but it lives in this weird
liminal space that includes late Harry Potter
movies and Pirates of the Caribbean and some
Star Wars movies where people are like, these
are for kids. And it's like, well, this is kind
of for everybody. But this is a very simplistic.
that love is more powerful than hate. It's not
particularly for adults, but we're entering it
so late in such a simplistic stage that I'm kind
of almost guarding against the way that they're
doing it, which is unfair, but I've just seen
it done so poorly so many times before that I'm
a little wary of what's going on, that it's just
that simple. Right. Anything done right is done
well. Mm -hmm. But I'm worried about it not being
done well or right. Right, because then it becomes
cliche. Yeah. Interesting note here that when
Vecna comes to kill Max, he shows her the POV
of all of these different fights. So she sees
Lucas and Jason fighting. How? We don't know.
She sees Eddie and Dustin, which... I assume
is through Demobat's eyes. She sees a demo opening
its flower mouth, not realizing that this is
the USSR fight, right? Is this how it is to be
Vecna? Because of the hive mind, can he see everything
like that? And is it through the mind flayer
that he's like, he's connected to the mind flayer
and the mind flayer is like the internet router
that can go and see everything? Or is it the
vines that he's just being able to see through?
Or does he have the sight, like Trelawney, but
it's like everything? Or is this just a montage?
It really does seem like he is showing her something
because he does specifically call out that all
of her friends are failing and he's there to
kill her, but they're all going to die as well.
And I don't understand how he... can actually
show her these things. Potentially it is a montage
and he has told her what is going on verbally.
And obviously that's less interesting than just
showing what's going on. Yeah. But it does seem
odd, especially being able to show Lucas and
Jason. The only thing I can think of is that
it's because it's taking place. Physically in
the same space that Vecna is physically just
in the upside down. But it does seem very odd
because at least with – Maybe watching through
Max's eyes as he's taking over her body. Oh.
Maybe. That could be. Yeah. That could be that
while she's looking through him, he's looking
through her and can then see. I guess, you know,
now that you mentioned that, I did have – a brief
thought when I was watching it that that's how
because oh look and I thought it was going to
stop there I kind of forgot that he shows all
the rest of what's going on I thought it was
going to stop with just we'll look at what's
happening while I have you look at your surroundings
if you were actually there you could maybe put
a stop to this and so I think that That makes
sense that he's doing it through her. I don't
understand how vines have eyes. So I don't know
that that visual makes sense. And I could see
it being through the bats and through the Demogorgon
and whatnot. But we're looking into the Demogorgon's
mouth. Right. So was it about to eat its own
kind? Right. Not from the Demogorgon. So it is
a little off, which is why I do think that is
a visual montage from. the filming standpoint
but i do think that he is showing max at least
part of that or at least describing to her the
situation that everybody is in okay good good
good i i accept this answer however in two circumstances
i find myself yelling at the screen dude Shoot
him. The fire is not doing enough death. So it's
Vecna and the Demogorgon? Yes. Nice. Yes, of
course. Yes. So Hop with the Demogorgon and then
Steve, Nancy, and Robin with Vecna. And I feel
that I definitely was upset at the adults for
not handling the Demogorgon. Especially when
Nancy and Jonathan did it so well in season one.
Right. They can see what's going on. They can
see that the Demogorgon is still up and running.
They also, I guess one side note is that Hop
is out of bullets. True. However, I have absolutely
no excuse for the Flambe plan because... Nancy
brought her shotgun for this reason and is standing
there watching him burn and not die and walk
menacingly towards them and is just standing
there holding said shotgun. She does shoot him
eventually. She does, but it takes a dang long
time. Steve and Robin are both side -eyeing Nancy
like, okay. Anytime now. Maybe I don't want babies
with you. I feel like you won't give it a bottle
quick enough. It's been crying. Yeah, I hear
you there. That's really funny. Switching notes.
Is Max's and Eddie's death scenes the most emotional
Stranger Things has gotten? I think so. The only
other thing I can think of that gets close to
it is Bob's death is really sad, but we don't
really get that much time to stay with it. And
they're not. No. Like Eddie, I feel like it maybe
is as emotionally important as Bob, but I feel
like we get to know Eddie a little bit more and
his death scene is a little bit more emotional
because Dustin like is holding him when he dies.
Max's I feel like we don't touch with maybe the
exception of Sarah. and Will's montage in season
one, where we watch Hop relive his daughter's
death while reviving Will, which is different
emotion, but maybe just as emotional. Yeah, the
only challenge that I will give is that I do
cry during Bob's death. It's terrible. And so
I definitely do actually shed tears then. And...
I don't know. Maybe that's just because it's
Sean Astin. Sean Astin. Because I love him. But
my potatoes! Well, and it's also one of those,
he almost made it. Yeah. And just, you think
everything's okay, and then it's not. And it's
just that little... Whereas with Max and with
Eddie, you know they're in danger. They're constantly
in danger. There's not a moment that that lets
up to make you think that maybe they're going
to get away before it happens. Except for Eddie
has a moment where he can get away, but then
he chooses to hang with him in danger for much
longer. Right. So I feel like potentially it's
just the rhythm and the pacing of those. Leading
up to death and then death sequences. But I do
feel like, especially from the acting that we
get from Dustin and Lucas, absolutely so emotional
and very, very upsetting. And really, really
heart -wrenching. Speaking of the acting, Dustin
does an incredible job in this entire episode.
I'm more emotional with him talking to Eddie's
uncle than I am with a actual emotion scene because
of just how incredibly well on the teetering
edge of losing it. He is that entire scene with
the way the tears are in his eyes and his trembling
chin and how real that all feels where it's like,
that's true acting technique coming in, in a
way that is like, Seems exceptionally difficult.
I would put Eddie's death in terms of severity
and emotion with Bob's, certainly. You could
tie it. I wouldn't argue that. I think that season
four's entire success is predicated on this Max
Lucas dynamic. And the payoff with Lucas's acting
in that scene. Is what makes season four so good
to me, even with a bunch of the complaints that
we've discussed. He is, it feels like there's
this sort of behind the scenes about Fred and
George's death in Deathly Hallows, where the
actor who plays George says, yeah, after like
a take or two, and I'm looking down at, you know,
my actual twin playing his corpse, I. felt it
and went immediately into the and you only see
it for a split second and the actor talks about
how he wishes that scene could have been out
a little bit more because he feels like that
was you know one of his finest acting moments
essentially and you can see like there's a meme
of it where that you look at percy's actor who's
doing a phenomenal job at at acting a very different
uh sort of morning and then versus george and
you can also tell that like the difference when
he says like I actually fell into this dark place
of thinking that that was really my brother.
And those were my real emotions of thinking that
he's dead versus like acting, which both are
very appropriate for that moment. And I don't
like the fact that people make fun of Percy,
but it is, you can see the stark difference.
And to me, that's, that's the level that Lucas
is in. Yes. Like just hold on and I'm with you
and no, no, no, no, no. And just the way that
he plays that, that doesn't feel cliche. It feels.
I don't know if fresh is the right word, but
it feels so vivacious. Right. That even if it's
not the most fresh take on begging someone to
stay alive, it feels that way because it's so
well acted. And we get to that line, Erica, help,
where he's looking over his shoulder. And that's
when I'm like, oh my gosh. That line hits me
inside of me, like everywhere. It is painful
and it is gorgeous at the same time. Yeah, it's
truly phenomenal. Caleb McLaughlin really nails
this. Yeah. I think it's unfortunate perhaps
that he hasn't been given more emotional range
within the character over the last few seasons.
He's, you know, very upset at Elle season one
and kind of has those anger moments. And he does
seem to kind of fall by the wayside slightly.
And is relegated almost to kind of Max's sidekick.
At times, certainly. A little bit. And I feel
like this is where he really gets to shine. And
shine he does. Yeah, certainly. Because that
sequence really only has the emotional tenor
that it does because of him. Yeah, certainly.
Oy, he's excellent in it. Last little note here
before we move on into our sort of mischief categories,
as I call them in my head. Anyone who has played
the Spider -Man Sony video game will understand
when I say I feel like Aunt May is missing in
the shelter scene. Yes. In that video game, she's
like a major component at a shelter. And it's
like... It feels like they just robbed that setting
from the video game. We're like, good, this is
what a shelter should look like. And so I'm like,
Mae? Mae, where are you? Where's your ward, Peter?
You know, Sam, you don't always have to face
down a horde of angry soldiers by yourself. Buckle
up, Schmissners, because it's our Sansa is smarter
than John category for what is the most important
character moment. I have two, actually. Okay.
First one, is it Nancy saying that Steve has
really grown up setting up this kind of whole
love triangle moment? Or is it Eddie deciding
not to run and going out to the bats to face
them to provide a longer distraction so that
the hive mind can't focus solely on just the
three teens? Between the two, I would give it
to Eddie. Yeah. I have a contender for this as
well, which is Will saying, now that I'm here
in Hawkins, I can feel him. He's hurt, but he's
still alive. I can still remember what he thinks
and how he thinks. We have to kill him. So I
don't disagree with you. I think that may be
the actual biggest character moment. Inside my
soul, I have a... Very difficult time with the
idea of the most important character moment of
the finale is for a character that's been benched.
Versus one of the reasons why I put it for Nancy
is that Nancy has this entire growth arc with
Steve showing us and sort of culminating in this
big turnaround from season one. And it also sets
up like tension and stuff for season five versus.
Will sets up the major tension for season five.
So you're right there. It's just hard to be like,
and Will gets it. He stole it. Yeah, I can see
that. I think for me, it also is a little bit
difficult to give most important character moment
for someone who it was imposed upon instead of
someone who grew to that moment. Yeah, totally.
So for that reason, I do feel like giving it
to Eddie here. Yeah. However, the moment of I
can still remember what he thinks and how he
thinks, speaking specifically about Vecna, when
we know that the Mind Flayer was the one in his
head. Yeah. That's insane. Insane. True. True.
But again, imposed upon him. Yeah. We'll do a
first place, second place, third place on that
one. He's on the podium. There you go. I know
you just lost a hand arguing with me, Sierra,
but listen up. It's the I am your father category
for most iconic character moment. There is only
one iconic character moment. I feel like this
is on the same level as any of the iconic character
moments throughout the show. Van flipping. Waffle
stealing. Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. Demogorgon
bat swinging. You name it. Sauna diving. All
of it. Romance novel cover seducing. It's Eddie
shredding his guitar. Yes. There's nothing else.
There's nothing else that can beat it. It's iconic.
All right. That's it. It's Eddie shredding his
guitar. Everybody sit down. It's time for our...
I am Iron Man. Most iconic and most important
scene category. Go ahead and give me yours first.
Mine is the gang standing on the hill at the
border where all of the plants are living on
one side and dead on the other as the particles
fall from the sky. It's so important. And it's
so iconic. It's the last shot. Yep. However,
I'm kind of having the same, like, Will versus
Eddie. And I think we're just, it's just kind
of like where we're placing the emphasis on the
episode. Because to me, I'm like, it's not about
the resolution to me. It's about the climax.
Okay. And you're going very much with the resolution,
with the revolution. Lafayette! You say you want
a revolution! Oh, different song entirely. You're
very much going with the resolution of everything.
So to me, it's the flambé sequence. Vecna's actual
body in the Upside Down is Molotov cocktailed
and shotgunned. The Demogorgon is then sliced
up like sushi. Eleven kicks one's butt in Max's
mind. Lucas punches the daylights out of Jason.
And Eddie sacrificing himself to save everyone
while Dustin limps over to him. I think that
is the most important and iconic scene category.
I have a hard time with that, though. And I'm
going to parse here. It's not one scene. But
we gave it to the sequence in season one for
their finale. We gave it to the Hopper -Sarah
-Will sequence. Yes, but I would argue that that's
more one scene because it is one thing that is
happening. That's... You might have me on that
one. Not five things that are all happening at
once. I was about to say, in the Supreme Court
of two, that is us. There is precedent for this
ruling. But I think you're right. I think...
Ah, man. If you were to say most iconic and most
important, and you said Vecna's body, Molotov
cocktail, shotgunned, but still alive, I may...
I'll give you this instead. It's... Max dies,
gates open, Jason split in two. Gate opens. Gate
opens. I can give you gate opens. Okay, excellent.
I will give you gate opens, yes. Fantastic. Well,
crack open encyclopedia, you loser! I need to
read up on the word loser. Here's the definition
of losers. Look, the encyclopedia, it now includes
your name. It's Karl Malone and then Sierra Obermark.
We skipped N entirely. That's such an unnecessary
shot at basketball legend Karl Malone. He happened
to lose to Michael Jordan a bunch. Like, he still
won a lot. It just wasn't the championship. Anyways,
that's the NBA. Back to Stranger Things. Crack
open an encyclopedia, you nerds. As Elijah Wood
once said, no, how could we have known? Where
we discuss the most important information disseminated
to the fandom over this final episode. Tell me
about it. All right. The first thing that is
very important. Elle isn't strong enough. Yes.
She's not. Not by herself. Not how she is right
now. She might be stronger than she was, but
she's not strong enough. The next thing. Will
was taken and infected by Vecna specifically
because he can feel him and knows how he remembers
how Vecna thinks. Yep. That's important. Just
so we know. Speaking of Will, I am even more
convinced that... Vecna took will than I ever
have been because I rewatched the first episode
recently, like of season one, not of season four,
of season one. I also re -listened to our episode
where we were like, is this Vecna or is this
not in the season one, in our very first Fandom
Shmandam episode. And I was like, I think it
is. And you were like, I think it's not. And
so here I am to prove you wrong. I proved myself
wrong, but continue. You did. You did eventually
get on. But here I am to prove your past self
even more wrong. I love it. Continue. Past Sierra.
Column A. The lightbulb flickers in Season 1
in the shed. So I'm going backwards, okay? Going
backwards from when Will is taken. Lightbulb
flickers right before he's taken. That's echoed
throughout all of Season 4 with when Vecna moves
around, the lightbulb flickers. Right. Okay,
so that's not the best evidence. The Demogorgon
also makes lightbulb flickers later, and Will
can make things in all sorts of things. Okay,
fine. The buyer's chain lock in the house is
opened by telekinetic powers. Yep. Okay, that's
weird. That's suspicious. Are you still not convinced?
Fine. Will throughout season one sings, should
I stay or should I go? And is only found after
he's fading and can't really sing it anymore.
Okay? Which, how does Max escape? Perfectus,
bye. Running up that hill. Music, indeed. But
here's the final nail in the coffin. You and
I freaked out in season three when Vecna's clock,
the full sound of Vecna's clock, sounds when
Billy is talking to the abductive lifeguard.
Heather? Heather, yes. Heather. We freaked out
about it. We missed it on this first rewatch.
Oh. At the six minute mark of season one, episode
one, Vecna's clock rings when Will falls off
the bike. It's fainter. It's harder to hear.
But it is Vecna's clock. And you cannot deny
anymore, Pastor Sierra, that Vecna is the guy.
I love it. Good. Take that pass, Sierra. Ha!
Dum -dum. Alright, here's another thing about
Vecna. Vecna was sent to the Upside Down by Eleven,
and he couldn't reopen the door, and he needed
L to reopen the door so that he could come back
to Hawkins, and then also everything has been
done by him, so that's a good thing. Just so
we know. Just to keep that in mind, everybody.
Indeed, indeed. Well, keep your horses safe.
It's the... I'm going to make him an offer he
can't refuse. Category. Best lines. All right.
I've got a few here. I've got a bad feeling about
this. Crazy Star Wars reference. Fine. I accept.
First ever mind fight held in a pizza dough freezer.
Pretty rad, right? I hate Argyle so much in that
moment. And I never should have knocked. I thought
I wanted to be like you. Popular. Normal. But
it turns out, normal's just a raging psychopath.
It's a great Lucas line, but I raise you my personal
favorite of Lucas's lines. Erica, help! Ugh.
All of my lines that I chose are bummers. We're
so sad. Speaking of so sad, I think it's my year,
Henderson. I think it's finally my year. I love
you, man. Okay. You just break my heart. It's
fine. That's what I'm here for. Then we've got,
I piggybacked from a pizza dough freezer. That's
a great line. It's just, okay. Sure. We know
what all of those words mean together with no
context. Yep. This one just cracked me up a little
bit. It's the news, now indistinguishable from
the tabloids. My, my, Mr. Wheeler, you have come
a long way. This is our government. They're on
our side. I've got Elle and Hopper meeting. Finally.
For the first time since Elle thought Hop died.
And she says, I kept the door three inches. Or
kept the door open three inches. Uh, that's so
sad. And also, good job for you. And also, like,
Mike wasn't around, so it really didn't matter.
My personal pick, though, of all of these is...
I didn't run away this time, right? From Eddie
as he's dying because of his... I guess we're
gonna debate whether or not it was a life -saving
tactic or not in... Dust off that card deck and
get ready to shuffle. It's our Joker category.
For who is the MVP of this episode? It is hard,
Sierra, for me to not give it to Eddie. Okay.
I am aware that I have a certain proclivity for
his character because I find him the most interesting
part of the season other than Max. Mm -hmm. But,
however, I will also say that there are rooms
to be made for Max for story reasons, to Dustin
for acting reasons. And Lucas for acting and
story reasons. Dustin delivering Eddie's eulogy
to his uncle is incredibly moving. And there
is no moment more emotional for me than when
Lucas pleads for Erica to help, as I've stated.
However, Eddie does a lot in this moment where
he goes out and keeps the mind flayer slash the
hive mind divided in what he is doing. Your turn.
Okay, so. I love Eddie. I do. I really do. Hold
on, I need my shotgun. Wait, I'll be back. I
just want to talk to her. I just want to talk.
Hold on. Hold on. I just want to talk. Doesn't
seem to accomplish a ton. Because the bats are
already. Shut your mouth. Okay. But the bats
are already distracted. By what? By the trailer.
Well, they made all this noise. They're trying
to get in the trailer. They don't know that they're
not in the trailer. It was so stupid. I read
this comment of yours and I went back to the
episode and I was like, that can't be. It is.
It's true. Yeah. So he could very well just go
back into the real world. They could block off
the gate somehow or create some sort of, you
know, weapons barrier so that the bats can't
get into the trailer and then get into the real
world. He instead goes back through, gets rid
of their way to get back into the real world,
which also... How did Nancy and Steve and Robin
get back because he took away how they - There's
an enormous gate open in Hawkins now. Well, now,
but they didn't know that that was going to be
a thing. I know, he does doom them to, like,
the lake. Yeah. And he kind of screws them over
a little bit. Certainly. And then just takes
off leading the exact same already distracted
group. Not more. Away. Farther? Closer to where
the other people are? We don't know. He just
goes not very far before he gets knocked off
the bike. Yeah, enough distance for Dustin to
limp over to him. Exactly. So, I'm sorry, but
I don't think that I can go with Eddie. I...
Hear me out. I have to go with Lucas. Yeah. It's
not just for the acting, although, wow, as we
have already stated. He stops Jason from disrupting
the whole situation with Max, potentially killing
everyone by pulling her out too early and having
Vecna chase them all down and knowing exactly
what they're up to and coming to as Steve and
Nancy and Robin are right there. He also... His
fight with Jason also distracts the person who
has Erica pinned down, saving her as well, and
allowing her to save herself in that moment.
And on top of that, he is the heart here, giving
Max something to come back to and to have hope
in. So I really think it's Lucas. I think you're
right, but hear me out on three pound for pound
arguments. I would love to hear your pound for
pound arguments. Okay. It's Murray. No. Pound
for pound, it's Yuri. He does not know. That's
a total joke. There's no way it should be Yuri.
He gets Hopper back. Cool. And Joyce, I suppose.
No. There's a pound for pound case to be made
for Argyle, who... It's the only reason why L
ends up in the mind fight at all. And he, I guess
all pizza makers are druggies in some way, shape,
or form. So he speaks the language of druggness
and gets them to keep it open and gets the salt
and everything. So there's a pound for pound
argument to be made for that. But I will still
scratch him off the list because I can't give
a winner to the desert people. There's a pound
for pound argument to be made for Will, who's
in this episode very little, who tells everybody
he's hurt at the end. And also, he's the one
that tells Mike that gets 11 to help Max. There's
a little space ballsy there. It's like, yes,
he's my brother's sister's college roommate's
boyfriend. So again, total joke, not really meant.
There's another option for Mr. Clark here. And
I really want you to hear me out on that. I'm
getting old. What? He taught everybody everything
they know. The only reason why they know how
to make Molotov cocktails is because Mr. Clark
is a fantastic science teacher. Vectors only
flambé because of Clark. And I'm sure, just like
they took out Ollivander at the beginning of
Deathly Hallows, they're going to take out Mr.
Clark at the beginning of Season 5. No, I agree.
I think it's Lucas. And I love Eddie, and I really
want him to have a win. But also, I think this
is Lucas's. Trophy for sure. All right. Well,
amidst your disappointment, clean your evil lair
and get ready for our I was the turkey all along
category. What is the biggest takeaway viewers
should leave with in preparation for season five?
Honorable mentions. Will can feel one. Honorable
mention number two. One took Eleven's powers
in season three so he could open the gate. And
also. How did he open the gates in season one?
That's fine. The real one, though, is it was
one all along. Disappointed or not, that is a
takeaway that we have to know for season five.
It's the public service announcement we all need.
And here's the one that we don't need, but it's
what we deserve. Do not, under any circumstance,
go to Indiana. It is the literal gate to hell,
and I am not even from Ohio. That's good. Thank
you, dear listener schmissners, for listening
to this episode of Fandom Schmandom. If you'd
like to discuss this episode or any other episode
we've done, please hit us up on our social media
channels. You can find us on TikTok and Instagram
at Fandom Schmandom Pod, and on X at Fandom underscore
Schmandom. It really helps the algorithm place
us in front of the other like -minded schmisteners
out there. And with that, we're out, y 'all.
Don't forget to tip your pizza delivery boys.
Fare thee well! Fandom Schmandum was created
by Sam Williams and Sierra Obermark. The show
is produced by Avelia Lieb. The editor is Brittany
Fisher. The music is by Jeremiah Alves. Welcome
to Sam's new microphone. Restarting. Max falls
to the ground where Luchas. Luchador. Luchador.
The man, Lucas the Luchador, waves his red flag
and Jason bullhorns into the side of the wall.
I don't know what accent that is, and I don't
know where that came from, so I apologize to
all people of the world. Wait, it is one? Yes,
cool. I read it correctly. Good for me! It is
one with the force, and then Obi -Wan comes in,
and this is how we have Stranger Things meets
up with Star Wars. No, in order to do that, we
gotta do a Bob? Is Samwise. And Samwise is with
Legolas. And Legolas is... Is with Will Turner.
Is Will Turner. And then you just... You just
keep spiraling until you get back into Hawkins.
Yeah. It's a very Patty Oswald speech from Parks
and Rec. He's like... This is true. Have you
ever seen Little Shop of Horrors? Yes. Steve
is Audrey. Where he's like... In our garden by
the sea. She mows the lawn while I watch on our
big, enormous 12 -inch screen. I'm his, her December
groom. She's Nancy. She knows best. She's got
guns to combat me while our children play chess.
Like, that's Steve. Is it not? Yes, it so is.
Let me pull up the posters real quick because
I won't remember. So vamp for a second, Sierra.
Do something funny for the blooper. Do it now.
You can't see, but I'm juggling fire. That just
takes me into Madagascar, what, three, whatever
one where they are in Paris. Circus. It's like
circus, afro, circus, afro. It's so funny, yeah.
Now is Sierra's ASMR part of the podcast. Bubbles.
Bubbles. Bobby Newport. Highlighter on a post
-it. A candle labeled Marshmallow Fireside. Green
lights blinking steadily. Cat scratching at the
door. Because they can't possibly imagine a world
where they're not let into a certain area. How
dare I close the door? Two hours later. Here's,
here's, you know, we, and I, I re, for Dustin.
For acting reasons. For acting reasons. Dustin
delivering...