WEBVTT 00:00:00.650 --> 00:00:03.490 Hi guys, welcome back to my podcast all about 00:00:03.490 --> 00:00:06.370 Gone With The Wind. Today we have quite an interesting 00:00:06.370 --> 00:00:09.630 topic to cover. It's about Margaret Mitchell 00:00:09.630 --> 00:00:13.669 and her first husband named Barian Upshaw, otherwise 00:00:13.669 --> 00:00:17.969 known as Red Upshaw. So if you've ever researched 00:00:17.969 --> 00:00:21.269 Margaret Mitchell, you might know she had an 00:00:21.269 --> 00:00:24.339 abusive ex -husband. and that their marriage 00:00:24.339 --> 00:00:27.600 ended almost as soon as it began. You might have 00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:29.899 been researching the famous staircase scene. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.479 You might have read some news articles that claimed 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:35.299 that this scene was based on an incident with 00:00:35.299 --> 00:00:38.159 Margaret Mitchell's first husband. that she was 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:40.479 trying to overcome that trauma. You might have 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:43.200 read that Rhett Butler was directly inspired 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:47.039 by her first husband. It's just a name that crops 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:50.100 up a lot in terms of Margaret Mitchell and her 00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:53.280 life. So I thought it would be interesting to 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:56.460 just look at all the information we have, talk 00:00:56.460 --> 00:01:00.359 about who he was, and investigate whether he 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:03.880 really was the inspiration for Rhett in any way. 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:08.739 So who was this guy? Barry and Upshaw was born 00:01:08.739 --> 00:01:12.640 in 1901, and this was a year after Margaret Mitchell 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:15.840 was born. So they were about the same age. So 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:18.180 that's a difference right there. Rhett is a lot 00:01:18.180 --> 00:01:21.420 older than Scarlett, and her and her first husband, 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:24.659 Margaret Mitchell's, were not far apart in age 00:01:24.659 --> 00:01:27.659 at all. She was actually a year older. So they 00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:29.799 got married very, very quickly after getting 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:33.540 engaged. And at the time, Margaret Mitchell had 00:01:33.540 --> 00:01:36.640 had this on -again, off -again relationship with 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:39.879 some other guys, one of which was her next husband, 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:43.519 John Marsh, but also a guy named Henry Love Angel. 00:01:43.959 --> 00:01:47.379 So he was this young suitor who was very in love 00:01:47.379 --> 00:01:49.780 with her. They exchanged many letters over the 00:01:49.780 --> 00:01:52.980 years, and he proposed marriage to her several 00:01:52.980 --> 00:01:55.739 times to the point where it became this running 00:01:55.739 --> 00:01:58.480 joke among their circle of friends. But she always 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:02.409 refused him. So he would laugh it off, but he 00:02:02.409 --> 00:02:05.569 still felt that rejection. And after a while, 00:02:05.609 --> 00:02:08.009 he fell in love with this other young woman. 00:02:08.069 --> 00:02:10.289 And Margaret Mitchell didn't take this so well. 00:02:10.370 --> 00:02:13.330 She immediately got engaged to read up Sean not 00:02:13.330 --> 00:02:15.750 long after. To my understanding, that's kind 00:02:15.750 --> 00:02:20.909 of the timeline. So he was reportedly absolutely 00:02:20.909 --> 00:02:24.250 stunned that she agreed to marry him. Remember 00:02:24.250 --> 00:02:28.990 that. And her husband, her next husband, John 00:02:28.990 --> 00:02:31.449 Marsh, was actually the best man at their wedding. 00:02:31.969 --> 00:02:34.830 So she had a lot of guys on her string. But she 00:02:34.830 --> 00:02:38.349 chose Red Upshaw for whatever reason. And apparently 00:02:38.349 --> 00:02:41.210 she quickly realized only a few months into their 00:02:41.210 --> 00:02:44.050 marriage that she had made this terrible mistake. 00:02:44.979 --> 00:02:49.280 So as you probably know, Red was pretty abusive. 00:02:49.460 --> 00:02:51.939 He was physically abusive. He was an alcoholic. 00:02:52.340 --> 00:02:54.860 He couldn't hold down a job. He couldn't hold 00:02:54.860 --> 00:02:58.060 on to his money. He was a bootlegger. And this 00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:00.439 was all in the early 1920s. So the two of them 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:02.719 were fairly young. They were living at Margaret 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:04.740 Mitchell's father's house because they couldn't 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:07.360 afford their own place. And the father did not 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:11.939 approve of Red. So the very next summer, they'd 00:03:11.939 --> 00:03:16.199 gotten married in September of 1922. She had 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:19.719 kicked him out of the house, and she filed for 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:23.879 divorce in 1924 after they'd been separated for 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:29.800 a while. Now, I read parts of the biography Road 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:32.759 to Tara by Anne Edwards, and in this she talks 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:36.039 about what was in these court documents a little 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:41.810 bit. And apparently he physically beat her. He 00:03:41.810 --> 00:03:47.629 hospitalized her. And he also knocked her down 00:03:47.629 --> 00:03:50.050 onto the bed in what sounded like he might have 00:03:50.050 --> 00:03:56.289 tried to rape her. So obviously all of that led 00:03:56.289 --> 00:03:59.129 to Margaret Mitchell saying, I can't take this 00:03:59.129 --> 00:04:03.129 anymore. She quickly got married to John Marsh 00:04:03.129 --> 00:04:06.789 not long after that. They appeared to have a 00:04:06.789 --> 00:04:09.150 really happy marriage based on what I've read 00:04:09.150 --> 00:04:11.830 of Margaret Mitchell's later letters. So obviously, 00:04:12.030 --> 00:04:14.349 throughout her writing, Gone with the Wind and 00:04:14.349 --> 00:04:16.790 everything, they were very close. She dedicated 00:04:16.790 --> 00:04:21.910 the book to him. But she did apparently see Red 00:04:21.910 --> 00:04:25.689 Upshaw one more time because his mother, Mrs. 00:04:25.870 --> 00:04:28.629 Upshaw, she really loved Margaret Mitchell. And 00:04:28.629 --> 00:04:31.550 she had written this letter later on in life 00:04:31.550 --> 00:04:34.310 that we have. where she said that Margaret Mitchell 00:04:34.310 --> 00:04:37.310 got together with Barry and Upshaw and his second 00:04:37.310 --> 00:04:40.970 wife for dinner. So Margaret Mitchell didn't 00:04:40.970 --> 00:04:43.870 completely cut him off, it doesn't seem like. 00:04:44.930 --> 00:04:50.189 But we'll get more into that later. Then Margaret 00:04:50.189 --> 00:04:52.750 Mitchell died at the tragically young age of 00:04:52.750 --> 00:04:55.730 48. She was crossing the street, holding hands 00:04:55.730 --> 00:04:59.230 with her husband, John Marsh. And it's clear 00:04:59.230 --> 00:05:02.870 to me that They had this very happy marriage 00:05:02.870 --> 00:05:05.470 together that she didn't regret marrying him 00:05:05.470 --> 00:05:09.550 in any way. So that alone kind of makes you wonder 00:05:09.550 --> 00:05:13.029 why she would want to put her ex -husband as 00:05:13.029 --> 00:05:15.870 a character into the book instead of her second 00:05:15.870 --> 00:05:19.920 husband. So let's talk about some similarities 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:22.860 to Rhett. Because the whole thing with Rhett 00:05:22.860 --> 00:05:26.720 Upshaw is people love to compare him to Rhett. 00:05:26.740 --> 00:05:30.100 When people are trying to explain or excuse Rhett's 00:05:30.100 --> 00:05:32.860 behavior in any way, they always refer back to 00:05:32.860 --> 00:05:35.339 this guy. Or sometimes people are trying to make 00:05:35.339 --> 00:05:38.079 him look worse. So they say, oh, he was based 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:40.879 on somebody who was abusive. But we don't really 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:42.540 know what was going through Margaret Mitchell's 00:05:42.540 --> 00:05:46.939 mind when she wrote this character. To me, I 00:05:46.939 --> 00:05:49.379 think the biggest similarity the two of them 00:05:49.379 --> 00:05:53.120 have is that Red Upshaw was an alcoholic and 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:55.399 Rhett's an alcoholic. So there are parts in the 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:58.339 book where Margaret Mitchell will refer to Rhett's 00:05:58.339 --> 00:06:02.199 puffy face, his bloodshot eyes, the heavy whiskey 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:05.540 smell on his breath. He's in a terrible temper 00:06:05.540 --> 00:06:07.980 when he's drunk. And you can tell from these 00:06:07.980 --> 00:06:11.399 descriptions that she has experience with alcoholism, 00:06:11.420 --> 00:06:13.740 that she knows what it's like to be married to 00:06:13.740 --> 00:06:16.699 somebody who could be of physical harm to you, 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:21.300 somebody who instills fear in you at points because 00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:23.500 they're unpredictable, they're constantly drinking. 00:06:23.819 --> 00:06:27.040 And I think that those are the biggest way that 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.339 those are similar, but there's also the way that 00:06:30.339 --> 00:06:35.339 he is abusive. So Rhett in the book has some 00:06:35.339 --> 00:06:40.339 pretty bad moments. He yanks Scarlett's arm, 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:43.019 he yanks the strings of her corsets really tightly. 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.079 He threatens to kill her a couple of times. He 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:49.120 grips her arm so hard it leaves a bruise. There 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:50.939 are a couple of times Scarlett thinks he's going 00:06:50.939 --> 00:06:52.839 to hit her, although he never actually does. 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:58.439 So to me, it's kind of a less severe form of 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:00.800 Rhett Upshaw's abuse. Obviously, Rhett never 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:03.259 beats Scarlett or sends her to the hospital. 00:07:04.220 --> 00:07:08.000 But there is that similarity there as well. Is 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:12.300 it enough of a similarity for the two to actually... 00:07:13.250 --> 00:07:18.670 connect it's hard to say but I do think that 00:07:18.670 --> 00:07:21.029 there are definitely parts of Margaret Mitchell's 00:07:21.029 --> 00:07:23.889 experience that she put into the book namely 00:07:23.889 --> 00:07:26.089 that feeling of fear that I think she's able 00:07:26.089 --> 00:07:28.089 to describe really well because she went through 00:07:28.089 --> 00:07:34.149 it so after she got the divorce there is also 00:07:34.149 --> 00:07:37.709 this urban legend almost that she slept with 00:07:37.709 --> 00:07:39.850 a loaded pistol next to her bed for the rest 00:07:39.850 --> 00:07:42.839 of her life because she was so scared of him. 00:07:43.060 --> 00:07:46.160 And I've read some conflicting opinions on this. 00:07:46.300 --> 00:07:50.740 The first is that John Marsh gave her the pistol 00:07:50.740 --> 00:07:53.399 not long after the divorce, like right after 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:56.180 she'd been hospitalized, and that she had it 00:07:56.180 --> 00:07:58.699 for a while. But then after Margaret Mitchell's 00:07:58.699 --> 00:08:01.819 death, Susan Myrick, who was her really good 00:08:01.819 --> 00:08:05.740 friend, and who ended up being a technical advisor 00:08:05.740 --> 00:08:09.939 on Gone with the Wind, the film, said, stated 00:08:09.939 --> 00:08:13.699 publicly that she had slept over at Margaret 00:08:13.699 --> 00:08:15.740 Mitchell's house many times and that whenever 00:08:15.740 --> 00:08:18.439 she did, John Marsh would sleep on the couch 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:20.319 and Susan Myrick and Margaret Mitchell would 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.300 sleep in the bed. And she said she never saw 00:08:24.300 --> 00:08:27.540 a pistol anywhere in sight, that that was never 00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:31.519 something that she thinks actually happened. 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:39.379 So it's really hard to say how to Kind of explain 00:08:39.379 --> 00:08:42.980 this whole pistol legend. But I do believe that 00:08:42.980 --> 00:08:45.279 Margaret Mitchell, having had dinner with Red 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:49.980 later in life, kind of was able to get over all 00:08:49.980 --> 00:08:55.100 of this. She was able to justify in her mind 00:08:55.100 --> 00:08:56.940 what had happened or she was able to forgive 00:08:56.940 --> 00:09:00.820 or something like that. Because it doesn't seem 00:09:00.820 --> 00:09:06.179 like she held on to it. Moving on from that, 00:09:06.179 --> 00:09:10.419 back to similarities between the two. Red Upshaw 00:09:10.419 --> 00:09:13.220 was kicked out of the United States Naval Academy, 00:09:13.460 --> 00:09:16.059 and that's similar to Rhett because Rhett was 00:09:16.059 --> 00:09:19.820 kicked out of West Point. Rhett earned money 00:09:19.820 --> 00:09:23.259 bootlegging alcohol, and Rhett also earned money 00:09:23.259 --> 00:09:26.759 in dishonest ways. And there's another interesting 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:29.100 quote that was unsourced, but I came across it 00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:31.580 in this online article. It was that Margaret 00:09:31.580 --> 00:09:34.929 Mitchell privately admitted, Rhett Butler was 00:09:34.929 --> 00:09:37.210 the man she thought she was marrying in 1922. 00:09:37.690 --> 00:09:40.070 Again, absolutely no source for this. I don't 00:09:40.070 --> 00:09:42.590 know if Margaret Mitchell was romanticizing her 00:09:42.590 --> 00:09:45.169 ex -husband, but it does beg the question, if 00:09:45.169 --> 00:09:48.450 she was so happy with John Marsh, why would she 00:09:48.450 --> 00:09:52.730 want to put him in there? So let's talk a little 00:09:52.730 --> 00:09:56.669 more about Rhett himself. So Rhett is, like Scarlett, 00:09:56.730 --> 00:09:59.610 an antihero. He's not supposed to be a good person. 00:10:00.570 --> 00:10:03.110 He's an alcoholic. He has his abusive moments. 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:06.779 But I think the biggest difference between him 00:10:06.779 --> 00:10:09.960 and Rhett is that Rhett is a lot more successful. 00:10:10.179 --> 00:10:13.279 So he makes a lot of money. He has his moments 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:16.419 of heroism, his moments of generosity where he 00:10:16.419 --> 00:10:20.179 can be caring. He's not out of a job or lazy, 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:23.440 unless you ask Scarlett. And he's definitely 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.399 his own worst enemy, but he never behaves in 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:29.879 such a way that drives him into financial ruin. 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:33.500 And I think that was kind of Rhett Upshaw's situation, 00:10:33.779 --> 00:10:37.059 that he was more irresponsible. I don't think 00:10:37.059 --> 00:10:39.519 he was really that suave, cool, collected man 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:44.220 that Rhett Butler was. And then, interestingly 00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:47.659 enough, if we want to compare Rhett to somebody, 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:52.080 that person might actually be better for Margaret 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:54.779 Mitchell, because Margaret Mitchell, in her old 00:10:54.779 --> 00:10:58.019 letters, When she was about 19 to 21 years old, 00:10:58.059 --> 00:11:00.779 she wrote all of these letters to her good friend, 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:05.240 Allen. And she describes herself by a word I think 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:08.940 is very interesting. That word is perverse. And 00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:11.659 if you've read the book, you know Rhett is constantly 00:11:11.659 --> 00:11:16.799 described as perverse, that and sardonic. And 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.139 it's kind of somebody who goes out of their way. 00:11:20.860 --> 00:11:22.919 to mess with people, to go against the grain 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.480 just because, and make everybody upset. And that's 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:29.259 what brings Rhett pleasure. And Margaret Mitchell 00:11:29.259 --> 00:11:31.279 describes herself as being similar to him in 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:34.200 that way. So what I'm getting at here is I think 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:39.840 that Rhett is not directly based on Red. I 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:42.860 think Rhett is a compilation of a lot of people 00:11:42.860 --> 00:11:45.279 that Margaret Mitchell knew during her life, 00:11:45.299 --> 00:11:50.279 as well as herself. And also, I think that He 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.700 was kind of an embodiment of a viewpoint that 00:11:53.700 --> 00:11:57.000 she had researched in the 1860s. Because we know 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:59.659 she did a lot of research for the novel about 00:11:59.659 --> 00:12:02.120 what different people in the South might have 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:08.620 thought. So, also, another thing about Red Upshaw. 00:12:09.419 --> 00:12:11.919 We know that she married him very quickly. And 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:13.379 you might have been thinking at the beginning 00:12:13.379 --> 00:12:16.559 with her regretting her marriage, this actually 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:19.019 sounds really similar to a different character, 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:23.240 which is Charles Hamilton. So Scarlett, as we 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:25.840 know in the book and in the movie, she gets married 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:28.899 to Charles Hamilton spur of the moment after 00:12:28.899 --> 00:12:32.129 Ashley rejects her in favor of Melanie. And she 00:12:32.129 --> 00:12:34.669 talks about in the whole wedding chapter how 00:12:34.669 --> 00:12:37.230 she'd heard of people cutting off their noses 00:12:37.230 --> 00:12:39.929 to spite their own faces, but she'd never really 00:12:39.929 --> 00:12:41.950 understood that term until she married Charles. 00:12:42.669 --> 00:12:46.549 Then he dies almost immediately, and she's out 00:12:46.549 --> 00:12:49.950 of this marriage, but she's full of regret about 00:12:49.950 --> 00:12:52.149 what happened. Now, this is partially because 00:12:52.149 --> 00:12:56.809 she has his baby, but also I think that... When 00:12:56.809 --> 00:12:58.710 Margaret Mitchell is writing about Scarlett's 00:12:58.710 --> 00:13:01.730 regret and depression, that comes from a place 00:13:01.730 --> 00:13:06.850 of authenticity. So that puts Red in the Charles 00:13:06.850 --> 00:13:10.090 Hamilton role as this man she married immediately 00:13:10.090 --> 00:13:14.190 and shocked him by marrying him so easily. And 00:13:14.190 --> 00:13:19.419 it isn't the long struggle that Rhett had. Not 00:13:19.419 --> 00:13:21.779 only is Rhett inspired by a lot of different 00:13:21.779 --> 00:13:24.879 real people, but Red Upshaw himself inspired 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:30.419 multiple characters, or so it seems. So that's 00:13:30.419 --> 00:13:36.120 very different from Rhett, too. He's not somebody 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:38.899 that Scarlett was married to for only a short 00:13:38.899 --> 00:13:41.360 period of time. He was her longest marriage for 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:47.450 like five years or something like that. We don't 00:13:47.450 --> 00:13:49.470 know, though, if Margaret Mitchell ever actually 00:13:49.470 --> 00:13:51.389 was in love with him. I don't know if it was 00:13:51.389 --> 00:13:54.669 like with Charles where she didn't love him at 00:13:54.669 --> 00:13:57.710 all. She really just married him for spite, but 00:13:57.710 --> 00:14:02.070 we don't really know. And I think that she did 00:14:02.070 --> 00:14:04.269 put in some situations in the novel that were 00:14:04.269 --> 00:14:06.889 similar to her own experiences with Red, but 00:14:06.889 --> 00:14:10.450 I don't think... that she was trying to work 00:14:10.450 --> 00:14:13.330 through trauma by writing through those. I think 00:14:13.330 --> 00:14:15.730 from reading her old letters, I kind of get the 00:14:15.730 --> 00:14:19.629 sense that she was trying to write a story that 00:14:19.629 --> 00:14:23.490 had been in her mind for quite some time. But 00:14:23.490 --> 00:14:27.289 I know that people really want to explain this 00:14:27.289 --> 00:14:30.139 whole staircase scene. and Margaret Mitchell's 00:14:30.139 --> 00:14:32.899 relationship with consent. They want to look 00:14:32.899 --> 00:14:34.940 at her past experiences and try to figure out 00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:37.080 where she was coming from. And that's a whole 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:40.440 conversation for another day, but I really don't 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:43.500 think it was as simple as that. I think that 00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:47.299 there isn't really any hard evidence to state 00:14:47.299 --> 00:14:51.019 Red was Rhett, or the staircase scene was something 00:14:51.019 --> 00:14:56.059 that actually happened. But I think it's very 00:14:56.059 --> 00:14:59.419 comfortable for people to put Red Upshaw in that 00:14:59.419 --> 00:15:03.299 role as Rhett because they don't like that Rhett 00:15:03.299 --> 00:15:05.559 does all of these awful things to Scarlet and 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:08.860 never really faces the consequence in terms of 00:15:08.860 --> 00:15:11.659 losing her love. So obviously he loses Bonnie 00:15:11.659 --> 00:15:14.740 and he's miserable at the end of the book. although 00:15:14.740 --> 00:15:17.460 he's resigned and he's ready to go back to Charleston 00:15:17.460 --> 00:15:21.419 and find some peace. But he never loses Scarlett's 00:15:21.419 --> 00:15:23.940 affection. In fact, it only grows. And I think 00:15:23.940 --> 00:15:26.100 that's really uncomfortable for some people that 00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:28.360 she remains in love with him despite all the 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:31.059 awful things he does. So people like to kind 00:15:31.059 --> 00:15:34.519 of say, well, Margaret Mitchell had this ex -husband. 00:15:35.829 --> 00:15:38.710 and she was never quite able to get over him, 00:15:38.830 --> 00:15:40.789 and that's why she wrote him as this romantic 00:15:40.789 --> 00:15:43.309 hero. I think that's why people try to compare 00:15:43.309 --> 00:15:45.629 them as much as they do. Not to say that there 00:15:45.629 --> 00:15:48.490 aren't similarities, because they definitely 00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:52.669 are, but honestly, I just can't get on board 00:15:52.669 --> 00:15:55.370 with the whole theory completely, because she 00:15:55.370 --> 00:15:59.210 was so happy with John Marsh. She always referred 00:15:59.210 --> 00:16:03.470 to the two of them as we. talked about them doing 00:16:03.470 --> 00:16:06.470 everything together. So I don't think Red Upshaw 00:16:06.470 --> 00:16:09.389 was the kind of person she viewed as like the 00:16:09.389 --> 00:16:12.389 one who got away, as in Rhett. I think if it 00:16:12.389 --> 00:16:15.149 was anybody she thought of in that way, it was 00:16:15.149 --> 00:16:18.250 Henry Love Angel. He was somebody she was very 00:16:18.250 --> 00:16:21.529 close to and whom she tried to spite by marrying 00:16:21.529 --> 00:16:25.289 Red. So I think Rhett is supposed to be a very 00:16:25.289 --> 00:16:28.230 interesting character. He's an antihero, but 00:16:28.230 --> 00:16:32.210 he's not supposed to be... simple or easy to 00:16:32.210 --> 00:16:35.169 understand. He's like Scarlett in that way. And 00:16:35.169 --> 00:16:37.490 I think putting him in the position of saying 00:16:37.490 --> 00:16:41.289 he was simply based on her abusive ex -husband 00:16:41.289 --> 00:16:43.909 kind of cheapens the character a little bit. 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:47.279 I think he's way more complex than that. I don't 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.139 think he's clumsily written. I think the way 00:16:49.139 --> 00:16:52.340 Rhett is written is so genius. Sorry, I'm out 00:16:52.340 --> 00:16:54.919 of breath. The way that she construes his motives, 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:57.039 the way that she writes him with this air of 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:59.200 mystery about him, you aren't ever really sure 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:01.460 what he's thinking. I don't think he's perfectly 00:17:01.460 --> 00:17:03.679 written. I kind of agree with people who say 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:06.460 that maybe after his horrible abusive behavior, 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:09.670 Scarlett shouldn't have retained that love for 00:17:09.670 --> 00:17:12.309 him. I can get behind that, and I can understand 00:17:12.309 --> 00:17:15.269 what people are saying, but I don't think it's 00:17:15.269 --> 00:17:17.789 as simple as saying he was this bad guy in her 00:17:17.789 --> 00:17:20.009 past. I don't think anybody in Gone with the 00:17:20.009 --> 00:17:23.549 Wind is purely good or purely bad. Even Melanie 00:17:23.549 --> 00:17:26.750 isn't totally perfect. Everybody has their good 00:17:26.750 --> 00:17:29.230 and bad moments, and that's what makes it such 00:17:29.230 --> 00:17:33.730 a special story. So to end here, I want to talk 00:17:33.730 --> 00:17:39.470 about Red Upshaw's ending to his life, and 00:17:39.470 --> 00:17:43.589 he actually died the same year as Margaret Mitchell. 00:17:43.750 --> 00:17:48.049 He died in 1949, and so did she, and I have read 00:17:48.049 --> 00:17:51.309 certain accounts that states he fell off of a 00:17:51.309 --> 00:17:54.269 building. Others say that he jumped and he committed 00:17:54.269 --> 00:17:57.349 suicide, but I'm not really sure which one it 00:17:57.349 --> 00:18:00.549 is. If he did commit suicide, obviously that's 00:18:00.549 --> 00:18:05.869 very tragic, but also it's interesting to me 00:18:05.869 --> 00:18:09.750 because It seems like he wouldn't have turned 00:18:09.750 --> 00:18:13.410 his life around. And another thing to think about 00:18:13.410 --> 00:18:16.829 is that given that he died in the same year as 00:18:16.829 --> 00:18:21.109 Margaret Mitchell, he would have been aware of 00:18:21.109 --> 00:18:23.470 the book's success and of the film for sure. 00:18:24.490 --> 00:18:28.309 He would have lived 10 years past the film coming 00:18:28.309 --> 00:18:31.109 out. And he would have been aware this woman 00:18:31.109 --> 00:18:33.470 he married had gained all of this fame and success 00:18:33.470 --> 00:18:36.450 and was this really popular figure in the United 00:18:36.450 --> 00:18:39.049 States at the time. There's no way he could have 00:18:39.049 --> 00:18:41.410 escaped learning about that, no matter how much 00:18:41.410 --> 00:18:44.289 of an alcoholic he was. Even if he was totally 00:18:44.289 --> 00:18:46.910 out of touch, Gone with the Wind was everywhere, 00:18:47.109 --> 00:18:50.170 especially the film once it came out. So I think 00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:52.910 that imagine you're him and imagine that your 00:18:52.910 --> 00:18:55.890 ex -wife has written a book. It's super long 00:18:55.890 --> 00:18:59.400 and you pick it up. just out of curiosity maybe, 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.259 or maybe you really want to read it. And you 00:19:02.259 --> 00:19:05.180 notice the similarities. He had to have known. 00:19:05.299 --> 00:19:08.299 I think that's so fascinating. And you have to 00:19:08.299 --> 00:19:10.660 wonder what he thought about it and if he thought 00:19:10.660 --> 00:19:13.539 it really was based on him like a lot of readers 00:19:13.539 --> 00:19:19.660 do. Now, I don't know what Margaret Mitchell 00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:22.859 thought about him in the later years of her life. 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:24.759 I think that there is a lot of mystery around 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:30.450 that. But Margaret Mitchell was always very aware 00:19:30.450 --> 00:19:33.609 of what the public thought and what they said. 00:19:33.690 --> 00:19:36.549 She was a newspaper woman and there were always 00:19:36.549 --> 00:19:39.690 crazy rumors about her. So he would have been 00:19:39.690 --> 00:19:44.250 one of them. And I think that her divorce to 00:19:44.250 --> 00:19:46.630 her ex -husband, it would have been a news story 00:19:46.630 --> 00:19:49.970 even back then if it had gotten out. So I don't 00:19:49.970 --> 00:19:51.930 know. I haven't read any old newspaper articles 00:19:51.930 --> 00:19:55.170 about him, but I'd be interested if anybody knows 00:19:55.170 --> 00:19:59.259 anything about that. Because even had he managed 00:19:59.259 --> 00:20:01.859 to not read Gone with the Wind and be totally 00:20:01.859 --> 00:20:05.039 ignorant about his possible representation in 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.259 it, he still would have been approached by the 00:20:08.259 --> 00:20:11.140 public and by the press if anybody had known 00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:14.440 that he existed. And if they were trying to, 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:16.819 you know, write a story about it like a lot of 00:20:16.819 --> 00:20:20.380 people do today. So I think that he must have 00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:24.680 known something. Even though we know so little 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:29.640 about him, I think that it's very interesting 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:32.019 still to kind of imagine what he would have thought 00:20:32.019 --> 00:20:36.160 about the whole thing. So if you got this far, 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:38.880 thanks for listening. I know that we don't know 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.299 exactly what happened between the two of them, 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:43.140 and maybe we never will. There might be more 00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:45.819 sources about him out there that I've missed, 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:48.799 but let me know what you think if you have any 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:55.680 more information. And I think that although he 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:58.240 was not the direct inspiration for Rhett, I think 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:01.279 you can absolutely see him in the novel. So it's 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:05.039 definitely good to know about his life. Last 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.460 thing I want to say, actually, there is this 00:21:07.460 --> 00:21:11.700 TV movie. It's a biopic called A Burning Passion, 00:21:11.900 --> 00:21:14.559 the Margaret Mitchell story. And in this movie, 00:21:14.779 --> 00:21:19.559 Red Upshaw. It's mostly about him. He's in the 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:22.400 whole movie. And at the end, after the book is 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.920 published, he comes and he finds Margaret Mitchell 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.819 and he says, it's me, isn't it? I'm your Rhett 00:21:27.819 --> 00:21:31.759 Butler. And I don't remember if she confirms 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:36.240 or not, but I think she basically does. And it's 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.680 just interesting to me that the public just seems 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:43.039 to imagine this guy as being Rhett Butler, even 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:46.700 if he... It was more of a conglomeration of different 00:21:46.700 --> 00:21:52.259 people. That's how we view him. This alcoholic, 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.000 abusive ex -husband who Margaret Mitchell used 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:58.039 to have is just this inspiration for this amazing 00:21:58.039 --> 00:22:01.740 literary character, at least in the eyes of a 00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:04.740 lot of people. So the movie really leans into 00:22:04.740 --> 00:22:07.079 that whole conspiracy theory. If you've never 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:10.079 seen it, I recommend it. Maybe it's an episode 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:13.690 for another day. What do you think about all 00:22:13.690 --> 00:22:15.609 this? Do you think they actually were based on 00:22:15.609 --> 00:22:20.059 each other? Should Red Upshaw have been romanticized? 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:22.279 Should Rhett have been romanticized? What do 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:24.400 you think about Rhett? And what do you think 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.599 Margaret Mitchell's intentions were? So if you 00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:30.619 got this far, thanks for listening. And I hope 00:22:30.619 --> 00:22:32.980 you have a great day. I'm sorry I sounded so 00:22:32.980 --> 00:22:35.740 out of breath this entire episode. I've been 00:22:35.740 --> 00:22:38.200 feeling kind of sick, which is why I put off 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.279 making this. So it's probably going to sound 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:42.920 absolutely dreadful. But thanks for putting up 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:43.619 with it. Bye.