Hi guys, welcome back to my podcast all about
Gone With The Wind. Today we have quite an interesting
topic to cover. It's about Margaret Mitchell
and her first husband named Barian Upshaw, otherwise
known as Red Upshaw. So if you've ever researched
Margaret Mitchell, you might know she had an
abusive ex -husband. and that their marriage
ended almost as soon as it began. You might have
been researching the famous staircase scene.
You might have read some news articles that claimed
that this scene was based on an incident with
Margaret Mitchell's first husband. that she was
trying to overcome that trauma. You might have
read that Rhett Butler was directly inspired
by her first husband. It's just a name that crops
up a lot in terms of Margaret Mitchell and her
life. So I thought it would be interesting to
just look at all the information we have, talk
about who he was, and investigate whether he
really was the inspiration for Rhett in any way.
So who was this guy? Barry and Upshaw was born
in 1901, and this was a year after Margaret Mitchell
was born. So they were about the same age. So
that's a difference right there. Rhett is a lot
older than Scarlett, and her and her first husband,
Margaret Mitchell's, were not far apart in age
at all. She was actually a year older. So they
got married very, very quickly after getting
engaged. And at the time, Margaret Mitchell had
had this on -again, off -again relationship with
some other guys, one of which was her next husband,
John Marsh, but also a guy named Henry Love Angel.
So he was this young suitor who was very in love
with her. They exchanged many letters over the
years, and he proposed marriage to her several
times to the point where it became this running
joke among their circle of friends. But she always
refused him. So he would laugh it off, but he
still felt that rejection. And after a while,
he fell in love with this other young woman.
And Margaret Mitchell didn't take this so well.
She immediately got engaged to read up Sean not
long after. To my understanding, that's kind
of the timeline. So he was reportedly absolutely
stunned that she agreed to marry him. Remember
that. And her husband, her next husband, John
Marsh, was actually the best man at their wedding.
So she had a lot of guys on her string. But she
chose Red Upshaw for whatever reason. And apparently
she quickly realized only a few months into their
marriage that she had made this terrible mistake.
So as you probably know, Red was pretty abusive.
He was physically abusive. He was an alcoholic.
He couldn't hold down a job. He couldn't hold
on to his money. He was a bootlegger. And this
was all in the early 1920s. So the two of them
were fairly young. They were living at Margaret
Mitchell's father's house because they couldn't
afford their own place. And the father did not
approve of Red. So the very next summer, they'd
gotten married in September of 1922. She had
kicked him out of the house, and she filed for
divorce in 1924 after they'd been separated for
a while. Now, I read parts of the biography Road
to Tara by Anne Edwards, and in this she talks
about what was in these court documents a little
bit. And apparently he physically beat her. He
hospitalized her. And he also knocked her down
onto the bed in what sounded like he might have
tried to rape her. So obviously all of that led
to Margaret Mitchell saying, I can't take this
anymore. She quickly got married to John Marsh
not long after that. They appeared to have a
really happy marriage based on what I've read
of Margaret Mitchell's later letters. So obviously,
throughout her writing, Gone with the Wind and
everything, they were very close. She dedicated
the book to him. But she did apparently see Red
Upshaw one more time because his mother, Mrs.
Upshaw, she really loved Margaret Mitchell. And
she had written this letter later on in life
that we have. where she said that Margaret Mitchell
got together with Barry and Upshaw and his second
wife for dinner. So Margaret Mitchell didn't
completely cut him off, it doesn't seem like.
But we'll get more into that later. Then Margaret
Mitchell died at the tragically young age of
48. She was crossing the street, holding hands
with her husband, John Marsh. And it's clear
to me that They had this very happy marriage
together that she didn't regret marrying him
in any way. So that alone kind of makes you wonder
why she would want to put her ex -husband as
a character into the book instead of her second
husband. So let's talk about some similarities
to Rhett. Because the whole thing with Rhett
Upshaw is people love to compare him to Rhett.
When people are trying to explain or excuse Rhett's
behavior in any way, they always refer back to
this guy. Or sometimes people are trying to make
him look worse. So they say, oh, he was based
on somebody who was abusive. But we don't really
know what was going through Margaret Mitchell's
mind when she wrote this character. To me, I
think the biggest similarity the two of them
have is that Red Upshaw was an alcoholic and
Rhett's an alcoholic. So there are parts in the
book where Margaret Mitchell will refer to Rhett's
puffy face, his bloodshot eyes, the heavy whiskey
smell on his breath. He's in a terrible temper
when he's drunk. And you can tell from these
descriptions that she has experience with alcoholism,
that she knows what it's like to be married to
somebody who could be of physical harm to you,
somebody who instills fear in you at points because
they're unpredictable, they're constantly drinking.
And I think that those are the biggest way that
those are similar, but there's also the way that
he is abusive. So Rhett in the book has some
pretty bad moments. He yanks Scarlett's arm,
he yanks the strings of her corsets really tightly.
He threatens to kill her a couple of times. He
grips her arm so hard it leaves a bruise. There
are a couple of times Scarlett thinks he's going
to hit her, although he never actually does.
So to me, it's kind of a less severe form of
Rhett Upshaw's abuse. Obviously, Rhett never
beats Scarlett or sends her to the hospital.
But there is that similarity there as well. Is
it enough of a similarity for the two to actually...
connect it's hard to say but I do think that
there are definitely parts of Margaret Mitchell's
experience that she put into the book namely
that feeling of fear that I think she's able
to describe really well because she went through
it so after she got the divorce there is also
this urban legend almost that she slept with
a loaded pistol next to her bed for the rest
of her life because she was so scared of him.
And I've read some conflicting opinions on this.
The first is that John Marsh gave her the pistol
not long after the divorce, like right after
she'd been hospitalized, and that she had it
for a while. But then after Margaret Mitchell's
death, Susan Myrick, who was her really good
friend, and who ended up being a technical advisor
on Gone with the Wind, the film, said, stated
publicly that she had slept over at Margaret
Mitchell's house many times and that whenever
she did, John Marsh would sleep on the couch
and Susan Myrick and Margaret Mitchell would
sleep in the bed. And she said she never saw
a pistol anywhere in sight, that that was never
something that she thinks actually happened.
So it's really hard to say how to Kind of explain
this whole pistol legend. But I do believe that
Margaret Mitchell, having had dinner with Red
later in life, kind of was able to get over all
of this. She was able to justify in her mind
what had happened or she was able to forgive
or something like that. Because it doesn't seem
like she held on to it. Moving on from that,
back to similarities between the two. Red Upshaw
was kicked out of the United States Naval Academy,
and that's similar to Rhett because Rhett was
kicked out of West Point. Rhett earned money
bootlegging alcohol, and Rhett also earned money
in dishonest ways. And there's another interesting
quote that was unsourced, but I came across it
in this online article. It was that Margaret
Mitchell privately admitted, Rhett Butler was
the man she thought she was marrying in 1922.
Again, absolutely no source for this. I don't
know if Margaret Mitchell was romanticizing her
ex -husband, but it does beg the question, if
she was so happy with John Marsh, why would she
want to put him in there? So let's talk a little
more about Rhett himself. So Rhett is, like Scarlett,
an antihero. He's not supposed to be a good person.
He's an alcoholic. He has his abusive moments.
But I think the biggest difference between him
and Rhett is that Rhett is a lot more successful.
So he makes a lot of money. He has his moments
of heroism, his moments of generosity where he
can be caring. He's not out of a job or lazy,
unless you ask Scarlett. And he's definitely
his own worst enemy, but he never behaves in
such a way that drives him into financial ruin.
And I think that was kind of Rhett Upshaw's situation,
that he was more irresponsible. I don't think
he was really that suave, cool, collected man
that Rhett Butler was. And then, interestingly
enough, if we want to compare Rhett to somebody,
that person might actually be better for Margaret
Mitchell, because Margaret Mitchell, in her old
letters, When she was about 19 to 21 years old,
she wrote all of these letters to her good friend,
Allen. And she describes herself by a word I think
is very interesting. That word is perverse. And
if you've read the book, you know Rhett is constantly
described as perverse, that and sardonic. And
it's kind of somebody who goes out of their way.
to mess with people, to go against the grain
just because, and make everybody upset. And that's
what brings Rhett pleasure. And Margaret Mitchell
describes herself as being similar to him in
that way. So what I'm getting at here is I think
that Rhett is not directly based on Red. I
think Rhett is a compilation of a lot of people
that Margaret Mitchell knew during her life,
as well as herself. And also, I think that He
was kind of an embodiment of a viewpoint that
she had researched in the 1860s. Because we know
she did a lot of research for the novel about
what different people in the South might have
thought. So, also, another thing about Red Upshaw.
We know that she married him very quickly. And
you might have been thinking at the beginning
with her regretting her marriage, this actually
sounds really similar to a different character,
which is Charles Hamilton. So Scarlett, as we
know in the book and in the movie, she gets married
to Charles Hamilton spur of the moment after
Ashley rejects her in favor of Melanie. And she
talks about in the whole wedding chapter how
she'd heard of people cutting off their noses
to spite their own faces, but she'd never really
understood that term until she married Charles.
Then he dies almost immediately, and she's out
of this marriage, but she's full of regret about
what happened. Now, this is partially because
she has his baby, but also I think that... When
Margaret Mitchell is writing about Scarlett's
regret and depression, that comes from a place
of authenticity. So that puts Red in the Charles
Hamilton role as this man she married immediately
and shocked him by marrying him so easily. And
it isn't the long struggle that Rhett had. Not
only is Rhett inspired by a lot of different
real people, but Red Upshaw himself inspired
multiple characters, or so it seems. So that's
very different from Rhett, too. He's not somebody
that Scarlett was married to for only a short
period of time. He was her longest marriage for
like five years or something like that. We don't
know, though, if Margaret Mitchell ever actually
was in love with him. I don't know if it was
like with Charles where she didn't love him at
all. She really just married him for spite, but
we don't really know. And I think that she did
put in some situations in the novel that were
similar to her own experiences with Red, but
I don't think... that she was trying to work
through trauma by writing through those. I think
from reading her old letters, I kind of get the
sense that she was trying to write a story that
had been in her mind for quite some time. But
I know that people really want to explain this
whole staircase scene. and Margaret Mitchell's
relationship with consent. They want to look
at her past experiences and try to figure out
where she was coming from. And that's a whole
conversation for another day, but I really don't
think it was as simple as that. I think that
there isn't really any hard evidence to state
Red was Rhett, or the staircase scene was something
that actually happened. But I think it's very
comfortable for people to put Red Upshaw in that
role as Rhett because they don't like that Rhett
does all of these awful things to Scarlet and
never really faces the consequence in terms of
losing her love. So obviously he loses Bonnie
and he's miserable at the end of the book. although
he's resigned and he's ready to go back to Charleston
and find some peace. But he never loses Scarlett's
affection. In fact, it only grows. And I think
that's really uncomfortable for some people that
she remains in love with him despite all the
awful things he does. So people like to kind
of say, well, Margaret Mitchell had this ex -husband.
and she was never quite able to get over him,
and that's why she wrote him as this romantic
hero. I think that's why people try to compare
them as much as they do. Not to say that there
aren't similarities, because they definitely
are, but honestly, I just can't get on board
with the whole theory completely, because she
was so happy with John Marsh. She always referred
to the two of them as we. talked about them doing
everything together. So I don't think Red Upshaw
was the kind of person she viewed as like the
one who got away, as in Rhett. I think if it
was anybody she thought of in that way, it was
Henry Love Angel. He was somebody she was very
close to and whom she tried to spite by marrying
Red. So I think Rhett is supposed to be a very
interesting character. He's an antihero, but
he's not supposed to be... simple or easy to
understand. He's like Scarlett in that way. And
I think putting him in the position of saying
he was simply based on her abusive ex -husband
kind of cheapens the character a little bit.
I think he's way more complex than that. I don't
think he's clumsily written. I think the way
Rhett is written is so genius. Sorry, I'm out
of breath. The way that she construes his motives,
the way that she writes him with this air of
mystery about him, you aren't ever really sure
what he's thinking. I don't think he's perfectly
written. I kind of agree with people who say
that maybe after his horrible abusive behavior,
Scarlett shouldn't have retained that love for
him. I can get behind that, and I can understand
what people are saying, but I don't think it's
as simple as saying he was this bad guy in her
past. I don't think anybody in Gone with the
Wind is purely good or purely bad. Even Melanie
isn't totally perfect. Everybody has their good
and bad moments, and that's what makes it such
a special story. So to end here, I want to talk
about Red Upshaw's ending to his life, and
he actually died the same year as Margaret Mitchell.
He died in 1949, and so did she, and I have read
certain accounts that states he fell off of a
building. Others say that he jumped and he committed
suicide, but I'm not really sure which one it
is. If he did commit suicide, obviously that's
very tragic, but also it's interesting to me
because It seems like he wouldn't have turned
his life around. And another thing to think about
is that given that he died in the same year as
Margaret Mitchell, he would have been aware of
the book's success and of the film for sure.
He would have lived 10 years past the film coming
out. And he would have been aware this woman
he married had gained all of this fame and success
and was this really popular figure in the United
States at the time. There's no way he could have
escaped learning about that, no matter how much
of an alcoholic he was. Even if he was totally
out of touch, Gone with the Wind was everywhere,
especially the film once it came out. So I think
that imagine you're him and imagine that your
ex -wife has written a book. It's super long
and you pick it up. just out of curiosity maybe,
or maybe you really want to read it. And you
notice the similarities. He had to have known.
I think that's so fascinating. And you have to
wonder what he thought about it and if he thought
it really was based on him like a lot of readers
do. Now, I don't know what Margaret Mitchell
thought about him in the later years of her life.
I think that there is a lot of mystery around
that. But Margaret Mitchell was always very aware
of what the public thought and what they said.
She was a newspaper woman and there were always
crazy rumors about her. So he would have been
one of them. And I think that her divorce to
her ex -husband, it would have been a news story
even back then if it had gotten out. So I don't
know. I haven't read any old newspaper articles
about him, but I'd be interested if anybody knows
anything about that. Because even had he managed
to not read Gone with the Wind and be totally
ignorant about his possible representation in
it, he still would have been approached by the
public and by the press if anybody had known
that he existed. And if they were trying to,
you know, write a story about it like a lot of
people do today. So I think that he must have
known something. Even though we know so little
about him, I think that it's very interesting
still to kind of imagine what he would have thought
about the whole thing. So if you got this far,
thanks for listening. I know that we don't know
exactly what happened between the two of them,
and maybe we never will. There might be more
sources about him out there that I've missed,
but let me know what you think if you have any
more information. And I think that although he
was not the direct inspiration for Rhett, I think
you can absolutely see him in the novel. So it's
definitely good to know about his life. Last
thing I want to say, actually, there is this
TV movie. It's a biopic called A Burning Passion,
the Margaret Mitchell story. And in this movie,
Red Upshaw. It's mostly about him. He's in the
whole movie. And at the end, after the book is
published, he comes and he finds Margaret Mitchell
and he says, it's me, isn't it? I'm your Rhett
Butler. And I don't remember if she confirms
or not, but I think she basically does. And it's
just interesting to me that the public just seems
to imagine this guy as being Rhett Butler, even
if he... It was more of a conglomeration of different
people. That's how we view him. This alcoholic,
abusive ex -husband who Margaret Mitchell used
to have is just this inspiration for this amazing
literary character, at least in the eyes of a
lot of people. So the movie really leans into
that whole conspiracy theory. If you've never
seen it, I recommend it. Maybe it's an episode
for another day. What do you think about all
this? Do you think they actually were based on
each other? Should Red Upshaw have been romanticized?
Should Rhett have been romanticized? What do
you think about Rhett? And what do you think
Margaret Mitchell's intentions were? So if you
got this far, thanks for listening. And I hope
you have a great day. I'm sorry I sounded so
out of breath this entire episode. I've been
feeling kind of sick, which is why I put off
making this. So it's probably going to sound
absolutely dreadful. But thanks for putting up
with it. Bye.