Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the
grief one, of the Women Talking About Learning
podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. Grief is an inevitable
part of life, yet it remains one of the most
challenging topics to discuss, especially in
the workplace. This episode considers many different
forms of grief. Just a heads up, this is not
a usual type of episode, and you'll notice a
bit longer than usual. Our first guest is Kavita
Brown. Kavita is the owner and learning director
for LDG Training. She is a highly experienced,
independent trainer, facilitator and learning
and development consultant, having worked across
various sectors. Kavita has significant experience
in a range of people roles across L &D, HR, recruitment
and organisational design. Our second guest,
Anita Guru, founder of The Mind Coach, is an
experienced mindset coach, psychotherapeutic
counsellor and motivational speaker with a background
in occupational psychology. She has nearly two
decades of learning, leadership and organisational
development experience at organisations such
as Deloitte, Centrica and Coca -Cola. Anita supports
organisations to raise awareness and help employees
navigate grief. Our next guest is Lisa Sharp.
Lisa is a senior learning consultant who designs
practical human -centred solutions that help
organisations turn strategy into meaningful behavioural
change. With more than 15 years of experience
across a broad range of industries, she has led
onboarding, leadership development and change
initiatives within complex regulated environments.
Our final guest is Sarah -Jane Bellion. Sarah
-Jane is the Leadership Capability Manager at
Centre Parcs UK and Ireland. Previously, she
spent over 12 years at Marks & Spencer, most
recently partnering with their retail operations
team. She designs learning experiences that spark
curiosity, build confidence and make a lasting
impact, helping people to see themselves and
their world a little differently. Recorded in
February 2026, this episode is a truly heartfelt
conversation. This is Women Talking About Learning.
This is Kavita, Anita, Lisa and Sarah -Jane.
talking about grief. Hi everyone, so lovely to
meet you all today to talk about what I think
is a real, really important subject. Just be
interested to hear from you guys, why are you
on this podcast today? What made you think, yep,
this is the one for me? Lisa? Hi, hi Kavita.
Do you know what, the reason why I chose the
grief one is because I've been through some stuff
and I think grief is such a complex topic and
grief spans so many different things. It's not
just about the loss of someone. For me, it's
been very much about the loss of my perceived,
what I had imagined to be my future self. And
with a breast cancer diagnosis or a couple of
them, yeah, grief has been an interesting one
to navigate. So yeah, I think it's just... I
think it's a really important topic. I think
it's so applicable to everything in life, but
especially when it comes to corporations and
supporting workers going through that grief process
in whatever way that is. Sarah, what about you?
Yeah, probably similar in terms of I think it's
such an important thing for us to be talking
about. We're all going to experience it in some
form. And yet we're really bad at talking about
it, I think, through my experiences. The main
thing really that I can sort of draw from is
I lost my dad in the first wave of the pandemic,
COVID. And it was a weird time anyway, right?
And lots of people lost lots of things. But the
way in which I was able or unable to grieve,
alongside then seeing people's weird human reactions
to somebody that was grieving, showed me that
actually we're not very good at this. So, you
know, any opportunity that I get to... Where
I'm going about grief, I want to speak about
it and I want to share because I think it's so
important people don't feel alone in that grief.
So that's me. How about you, Anita? Hi, really
nice to be with you all here today. And I think
for me, it's also a lot of lived experience.
So losing my parents and then also experiencing
infertility. So I think there's different kinds
of grief, which people don't necessarily understand.
And there are times where I didn't expect to
feel grief, but I did. I think just to echo what
you were saying, people can feel incredibly isolated
when they experience grief. And the more we normalize
it, the more we talk about it, because we're
all going to be hit by it at some stage in our
lives. So I think the more we can talk about
it, people are less likely to do it alone and
suffer alone. So I think that's one of my big
drivers. And I'm just wondering also for you,
Kavita, what's your... What's your why in joining
this conversation? We lost our mum in December
of 2024 and she was at end of life. We managed
to bring her home and we were caring for her,
myself, my siblings and my dad. And I remember
really late at night, her syringe driver started
to beep. So I had to bring the hospice nurses
for them to come out to check it. And as I was
trying to stay up at five o 'clock in the morning,
I kind of was reflecting on everything that was
happening. Also scrolling through LinkedIn at
the same time. And I suppose a couple of things
for me really resonated. And the first was our
own experiences. So myself, my two siblings,
our partners as well. We all had completely different
experiences when we look at it from how our organisations
treated us while we were going through that.
Some managers and organisations were amazing,
but one in particular absolutely wasn't and didn't
really get it and didn't really understand. And
the impact that then had on one of my siblings
as well, while he's... We're trying to support
my mum who's at end of life, but he's getting
all of this pressure from work. Just wasn't needed.
And whilst scrolling through LinkedIn, I then
put a post up literally about a heartfelt plea
to managers. You know, if you've got people going
through this, your team's going through this,
please be supportive. Please be understanding.
This is our lived experience. And I gave them
some examples. And I was blown away by the amount
of comments that then came up on the LinkedIn.
And some people had the most. amazing support
network from their organisation and their managers.
But horrifically, some of them didn't. And some
of those comments on there just really broke
my heart. So I think from a learning perspective,
you're right, Sarah, I don't think people talk
about it enough. And I don't think we as a society,
maybe it's a cultural thing, but in society,
we don't talk about it enough. And therefore,
I don't think managers are prepared. A lot of
the policies all state at manager's discretion.
But what does that actually mean? And I think
a lot of managers don't know how to handle it.
I mean, I've heard managers say, well, I haven't
experienced it, so just get on with it. So, yeah,
I think for me, it really was something that
actually there's a valuable learning in there
for everybody, not just our own experiences,
what we're going through and what some of my
siblings unfortunately faced during that event,
but also that wider impact on organisations.
I know, Lisa, you spoke about organisations as
well and really getting them to understand and
be supportive, whatever that grief looks like.
Does anybody know? And we think of why, why is
that happening? Why don't we talk? Because there
are some cultures out there, different cultures
out there who are really expressive, really speak
about it, really support individuals through
that whole grief stages, mourning, et cetera.
I can't put my finger on why we don't. It's very
much we walk across, we're across the road to
not ask that question or speak to somebody. I
have thoughts. It's easy to hide behind a process
or to follow a process than it is to think about
having to. be a human when it comes to to corporations
and i think there's two different very different
organizations that i've worked in and the last
couple i've worked in have been quite people
centric the one i mean currently is is very people
orientated and in previous employment it's been
very much around well we've got to follow this
process and you know i've been a manager in retail
witnessing you know somebody's you know losing
their grandparent who's their main person that
you know brought them up and the attitude was
very much well what's he doing it's just his
grandma and it's just you can't you can't say
that you know you've got a it's a It's an emotion.
And I think organizations sometimes get so lost
in the process of what we've got to do and the
tick boxes that we have to follow that they forget
how to to human. They forget the compassion and
the understanding and the complexity of grief.
You know, grief isn't just grief is like this
thing that you just walk around with and you
live with. And it's always. always there and
over time it gets easier to manage you know you
can kind of put it to one side to a certain degree
but something's always going to come and knock
you off your feet again and then you've got this
grief bubble surrounding you again and it's it's
not something that It gets easier to deal with
in terms of living with it, but the emotions
are still there. I suppose you find ways to,
when I look at my journey, I think I've just
found ways to keep putting one foot in front
of the other and way to kind of like navigate
way through a new life now without, you know,
mumming the head of our family kind of thing
as well. But yeah, I think that's interesting
when you say that some managers, organisations
forget the human in there. Now, I was going to
say what that really draws on is empathy. So
the lack of empathy in the workplace. So if you
haven't been through a loss, what you do as a
manager, for example, you draw on the empathy
and imagine how it might feel. Imagine what that
person might need. And from like, for example,
when I lost my mum and I went back to work, I
think when I was in the grief, I couldn't see
how deep I was in it. So it almost takes a manager
to be able to recognise. that okay this person's
had a big loss in their life i had i had brain
fog i couldn't concentrate i couldn't function
at the capacity i was before that and that was
really hard for me to be able to to work but
i just did it what went to work work wore the
mask because you're expected to be over it after
a certain period of time but i think we were
touching on there is it never goes it forms a
part of your life and your life builds around
it Yeah, absolutely. I think that's what I was
just going to draw on, Anita, the piece around
it perhaps doesn't actually get easier. It's
just our lives get bigger. Our lives continue.
The grief stays the same, actually. But our lives
continue around that grief. And so there's more
things taking our attention, whereas at the moment
of that grief really hitting hard, that full,
full attention. I think kind of that question
around why do we not? talk about it it's because
it's dirty right it's it's hard it's uncomfortable
it's really difficult to talk about it's messy
grief doesn't look one way it's not the picture
of somebody crying it's not the picture of somebody
um not being able to function quite often you
can be grieving and life continues you know there's
a dark humor around grief and that's certainly
what helped me through quite a lot of difficult
times and I think that's why people struggle
but I think you're right Kavita I definitely
have seen and when I've been sort of traveling
I had the privilege of being able to sort of
witnessed some funerals that were happening in
Nepal and it is so different and it was the the
outward expression of grief at that moment is
like nothing I've ever witnessed and that's always
sort of stuck with me that we we just don't really
have that And funerals, I think as a child, I
was never invited to attend funerals. I don't
know if that plays out for any of you guys. I
sadly did. We had a lot of elderly relatives
and my great grandma, for example. I can't remember
how old I was, but I do remember that my dad
was holding me during this and in caring me during
the funeral. So I must have been two, three maybe
when she passed away. But I suppose in our families,
in my culture, we always... Yeah, the kids have
always gone there, but that hasn't progressed
into the next generation. So when I look at my
friends or my family who've had kids and they're
younger, they just do not take them to funerals
whatsoever. It's almost like we try to protect
them. Do you think then, Sarah, building what
you said, do you think we don't want to talk
about it because we don't, not only that it's
so complex, but that we don't want to think about
it. We don't want to think about it because that
means we have to think about it for ourselves
as well. Perhaps, perhaps there's a denial. aspect
I think if you've not experienced a loss of some
kind because right we're saying that grief isn't
just about somebody dying it could be lots of
different versions of grief if you've not experienced
that so far in your life it's quite difficult
to put yourself into those shoes and I think
we often sort of confuse sympathy with empathy
etc I know we were talking about that a moment
ago Anita But I just think it's because it's
really hard. They're really hard conversations
to have and they require a level of vulnerability.
You know, we're here talking about this. I don't
typically talk about this in a public forum,
but I'll talk to everybody. that I can that I
meet that wants to talk about it but I'm really
bad at talking to my family about it and they're
the people that are experiencing it alongside
me and I'm here going we should talk about it
more I can't talk to my family about it so I
think it's because it's really hard I think I
found it Oh, this is a tough podcast, you know,
because this is going to bring up emotions, isn't
it? I've been through two breast cancer episodes.
My right one tried to get me five years ago.
And then my left one tried to get me in August
last year. And you're facing your mortality because
you don't know what the outcome is going to be
when you get that diagnosis. And understandably,
people don't know what to do with that at all
because it's really interesting to see how people
have different friends and family react in those
situations as well. My brother was very much,
I want to drop everything, talk to me. And he
was there from the offset. And then you have
friends that they don't. know what to say so
they do. I had friends turn up and spend the
night with me because I was scared to be on my
own. I had friends turn up with meals that they
cooked for me or just turned up just to cook
or just to sit with me. Going into hospital I
was getting really, really overwhelmed because
I ended up having to have a double mastectomy
and reconstructive surgery last year and I was
just terrified. And I think one thing, one of
my friends turned up and cleaned my house for
me because that was, you just obsess over the
weirdest things when you're going through some
of that. But it's just what I found was that
the first time around, I didn't talk so much
about it. I kept it bottled up. I didn't want
to upset any people. I use comfort, I use humour
as a defence mechanism and as a protective thing.
You know, if I make people laugh, then I can
make other people's discomfort more comfortable.
And this time I didn't do that. I spoke really
openly and rawly about it. And I think showing
that vulnerability and letting people in and
see the ugly side of it, because grief isn't
sexy, but that ugly side of grief, seeing the
ugly crying and the desperation and the fear
and the unknown, it just meant that they could
find their own way with things. They could find
their own way to show me love and to show me
support and to show up when I needed them the
most. Sometimes people just send me messages
saying, I don't know what to say. Yeah. I'm just
sorry. I think that's the thing, isn't it? Sometimes
I don't think I would expect anybody to say the
right thing or even say anything to me. Sometimes
it's just having somebody there who will. You're
right. You know, those people that actually do
show up, they don't know what to say, but they'll
just help you in whatever way that may well be.
That will send that message to you when you're
having a bad day or just check in on you. I think
sometimes I think we, do we overthink it? Do
we think, well, I don't really know what to say.
What if I make the situation worse? What if I
make them upset? So it's better to cross the
road and avoid them. And I would always say,
but you don't have to say anything. You just
have to be there. I think saying, I always thought
that saying something was better than saying
nothing. But then I was met with toxic positivity
of, or cheer up, or you'll look great with a
bald head. or it will get better whoa whoa whoa
whoa no because it kind of minimizes what you're
what you're kind of going through and I'd like
to think that you know with the the loss of you
know your your parents in your situations Anita
Sarah and Kavita I I'd like to think that nobody
turned around and said well cheer up it could
be worse I did have it could be worse I mean
yeah maybe but everyone's situation is it's your
own experience and there is no right or wrong
way of dealing with grief i think just showing
showing up in some way rather than just sit sitting
there silently observing and coming back where
everything's a bit lighter i think it's you can't
really avoid the heavy stuff and i think to to
sarah's point earlier it was I think people are,
you're mirroring their worst fears. And I think
that's a biggie for people to kind of, a hurdle
for people to get around. I think you've hit
the nail on the head. Sorry, Anita. I was just
going to say, I think it's that people want to
have a solution. They want to come to you with
a solution. They want to make it better. They
want to take it all away. And so they might just
then shut down and do nothing or just do, say
and do the wrong thing. But I think what... I
think the biggest thing is people are avoiding
big emotions in themselves and they're trying
to avoid provoking emotions in you or making
you feel an emotion when you're feeling it anyway.
So it's almost like. You sometimes have to just
sit with these difficult emotions and maybe experience
it together. Imagine what it might be like and
just allow that to happen because the emotions
don't evaporate. They don't just appear. They
need to be experienced. And that's a massive
part of grief. No, you're right. I think Andrew's
also mentioned that people use the word battle,
but it's not a battle. It's not a battle. It's
not something you're going to win. I think for
me, my experience has been it's finding a different
way of living now. As a family, you know, mum's
not there no more. She's been with us since day
one. The kind of, the wise person in our family
that everybody always went to, I always called
her the glue that kept us together. And we're
all, all of us, grandkids included, my dad included,
just navigating, trying to figure out what does
life look like now and how does that work for
us now as a family or as individuals and everything.
And I don't think it's a battle that you'll,
it's not a battle that it starts when you're
going to win and suddenly get over it. It is
just trying to navigate. I keep saying, all I've
been doing is just for the past year and a bit,
putting one foot in front of the other. And I
think that's all you can do. But you do. I think
you're right. You need that support around you.
I know you mentioned earlier, Lisa. I'm interested
to hear from you, Sarah and Anita as well. What
was your experience like in the workplace when
you were going through this? Oh, heavy. It was
as terrible as cancer is. I just experienced
nothing but compassion and love. and space and
understanding. And grief is different for everybody
and you need different things. And Anita mentioned
earlier that you didn't know, you didn't recognize
that you were in these stages. You knew that
you were in grief, but you didn't recognize the
help, your support you kind of needed because
you're just, you have to get on with things.
You have to, because you've got your bills to
pay and sometimes you do need, it's hard. Because
companies are companies, but you do need someone,
you do need a colleague or a leader that takes
a step back at the moment and says, look, should
you be at work right now? I came out of, I had
my breast, I had my double mastectomy and breast
reconstruction on the 3rd of October. And that's
a, the reconstruction involved surgery, removing
muscle and tissue from both of my legs. So I
couldn't walk properly at first. I couldn't sit.
properly. And then I couldn't really lift. I
was kind of like a sausage, just kind of lying
in bed, moving around a little bit. And then
after a week I got let out. And I think it got
to the point where Sunday night I'd watched 20,
48 hours of TV. I'd been lying in bed like a
sausage for a week. And I messaged my boss and
I just said, I cannot. I cannot do this for another
five weeks. I'm going to lose my mind. I need
to do something. And I asked to go back to work
on that following week. And he's just like, I
don't know about that. Let's catch up and have
a conversation first. And my friend's mum actually
came to live with me for a week after surgery.
And she said. over my dead body are you going
back to work and it's like you need those people
looking out for you to be that kind of mirror
to say hey you know what something big has happened
here and yeah like physically you're broken and
actually mentally i think this is quite the right
time to be to be rushing back doing that sometimes
you're so desperate to cling on to what you your
former self like this is a new version of you
now like what you were before that's that's not
you now you've got a different version and you're
trying to live with what's changed you're trying
to live with a future with ambiguity or uncertainty
or without someone in there and that's hard but
it's good that you i would say it's good that
you have that boss to kind of no you're not Okay,
as much as you think you are, but so it sounds
like you had that kind of level of support. I
can imagine that there must be bosses out there
that would be, yeah, okay, come back. We'll give
you this project to do and not really think about
you as a person and having that, your own wellbeing,
your own mental health, your own physical health
that sits in with that. Yeah. And just, I suppose
on the flip side, there are some people who actually
need it. I know Lisa, you had. you know massive
surgery you need to physically rest but some
people experience who's grief for maybe losing
a loved one it might be that they say you know
what I need work at the moment because I need
a distraction but then I think it's for the manager
to say actually let's look at what you are able
to do what's do it so not give you your full
remit maybe you come back on a phase return maybe
you do reduced amount of work but so it's I think
it's working flexibly and not taking a one -sided
fits all approach but really having the conversation
understand where the person's at are they actually
able to is it going to add more pressure and
stress and coming up with a plan and i know that
sometimes managers feel like they're you know
they're restricted because of policies etc but
take a human approach You know yourself, you're
a human. You know what might be best. Have conversations
on their behalf with HR or whoever and make those
changes because people remember these things.
They are going to remember when I went through
my difficult time, my manager came through for
me. They're more likely to be, you know. a lot
more loyal a lot more productive a lot more happier
in their teams and it and it goes back to the
whole psychological safety aspect as well you're
building that trust through all of these interactions
so i think for managers is to really trust in
yourself knowing what you know your person in
your team best than anyone and working with them
to figure out actually how can i support them
through this I think that's really interesting
as you talk about that. I'm sitting here reflecting
because my experience is really hard to relate
to any of what we've talked about because it
was a time where the world didn't know what was
happening, right? So up until a couple of days
that my dad was taken to hospital, I was still
working in my job and my job at the time was
for a large retailer where... We were essential
workers, right? So people were coming. We were
having to enforce people standing two metres
away from each other. A certain amount of people
coming into the shop to get their food. So I
was surrounded by this thing, which ultimately
a couple of days later took my dad away from
me. And so it was a really, it was so, I can
sit and reflect now and think about it differently
because nobody knew. how to handle that situation,
let alone somebody in their team that had then
been impacted by this thing that seemed like
science fiction, right? It didn't feel like this
was real. We're just this weird things happening.
And so I've got real sort of kindness and empathy
towards the people that were really trying their
best to support me, but I didn't feel supported,
but I don't think it was there. It was such a
unique, weird situation. I think the bits for
me that were really difficult as somebody that
was going through that, we've talked about support,
right? There was no support. I had been in the
hospital with my dad and therefore was deemed
as having to isolate for sort of two weeks after.
I didn't want to go and stay. where I lived on
my own for two weeks after watching my dad die.
So I went and lived with my mum and moved back
into my childhood home for two weeks, which was
the hardest experience being with somebody who
had not been able to see their partner of nearly
40 years, sort of say goodbye to him. I was the
conduit for that, right? Didn't even have a video.
It was just via telephone. He wasn't conscious.
But having to move back in to that home and be
stuck, there was no escape. I remember... As
soon as that isolation period was over, the first
thing I did was I borrowed my mom's bike and
I just cycled down the canals. And the one thing
I'm getting quite emotional because the one thing
that I can really remember is how alive everything
felt and seeing the nature and the water and
the sunshine. It just felt so alive. So for me,
it was a really weird experience because all
of my. I was really like forced to sit with my
emotions and I was forced to sort of I couldn't
shy away from it. It was everything that was
on the telly. I was there. I had my mum there.
And then as soon as I was able to go, it was
like, oh, actually, there is this other there
is a world that's continuing to move. Like nature
has been so healing for me to like this is nature.
It doesn't take away from how awful things are
and how difficult it can be. But this is also
the cycle of life. And that for me has been super,
super helpful. It's allowed me a perspective.
It's given me comfort and it's allowed me to
hold on to something when things have felt really,
really difficult. Well, thanks for sharing that,
Sarah. That sounds like it was really tough to
share with us. And I think you're right. I think
we've underestimated the impact the pandemic
had. And when people did lose people over there,
their loved ones over that pandemic period. And
I think you're right, it's a different sense
of grief. And I think for me, it almost seems
it's even more so. I don't know how I'm trying
to do the words now, but yeah, it seems like
a bit more prolonged, if you like. And it's still
sat there because you didn't have those people
around you in that. Yeah, it's very different.
Yeah, I guess it's delayed, like complex grief,
I guess, when the... normal rituals and routines
that we're used to even if we're recognizing
that we don't do it great anyway we do have some
when that's stripped away it you're right it
does prolong that or makes it difficult so for
me actually I would say it's only in the last
two years like that happened 2020 it's only in
the last two years through sort of a therapeutic
process that I've really been able to go oh yeah
like that was that was really hard and huge like
it's not just like oh oh well it's okay it's
just this thing that happened like no it It was
really awful and it's okay for me to feel like
it was really awful. Similarity to yourself,
I guess, Lisa, like acknowledging it within yourself,
like this is hard. Yeah. Do you know the first
time I went through breast cancer was I was diagnosed
in January 2021. So it was in lockdown. And a
lot of what you were saying about life is still
going on for people. People are still living
their lives and it's hard because you're in this
bubble. You know, there were so many restrictions
and so much of the whole process, you know, that
even down to finding out I had cancer, it was,
you know, and the NHS went into this. We're going
to do phone calls. There's no face to face anything.
You know, I had the phone call on a Monday. I
knew I was going to get a phone call on the Monday,
but I didn't know what time. And all of a sudden,
I live on my own, you know, getting that cancer
diagnosis. You're having like this out -of -body
experience and then having to wait two hours
for my brother to arrive on train because he
lives far away. And going through those, the
process, I mean, being a patient in a hospital.
during lockdown I've got to say if it brings
you any comfort Sarah you know god love the NHS
they they broke the distancing rules to give
me hugs at the the moments that I was going in
for the first time I'd had a lumpectomy they
were just holding me they were holding my hand
they were giving me a hug I mean obviously they've
been isolating and and you know I was just I
was in it was isolating but there was a lot of
love being shown by those key workers to make
sure that they were trying to do the best they
could given the situation to give you that comfort.
But yeah, I completely relate to what you're
saying that you need the things when you're going
through grief, you need to find the things that
keep you grounded and link and anchor you back
to some part of yourself. And a lot of that is
I need some form of control to get that back
and riding that bike with the wind kind of going
through your hair as it kind of makes you feel
alive and my version of that has always been
weightlifting and the gym and as long as I can
as long as I can get to the gym and throw some
heavy weights around it makes things it helps
clear my head and counselling and therapy has
been a huge part of my life for probably the
last six years and it's been game -changing for
me but Anita you mentioned earlier around not
knowing kind of what you needed but reflecting
on your experiences now how how could you have
been better supported whether that's you know
in personal life with with with friends and loved
ones or or in the workplace what what would you
want to see or what would you have wanted to
happen or what could have happened that that
would have made you feel more supported I think
what you've both shared I think unique situations
there's a lot of trauma I think during the pandemic
and I think the big aspect of what can help with
that is if you have people around you, which
you couldn't. And it makes me think about when
I was going through infertility and I was going
through rounds and rounds of IVF and then coming
to the end of my journey, it was no one was sitting
with me in my pain. No one was sitting or even
asking or even acknowledging. So I was kind of
just there navigating life, being around people,
but I was sitting in the grief by myself. So
it's, I think, what I needed. was people to just
be an emotional with me and that would have allowed
me to be an emotional and I've sat in therapy
rooms and the therapist has sat and cried with
me about the situation I came to the end of my
journey of trying to become a parent unsuccessfully
and I was there just then it was only this time
last year this is all going on and it was just
I felt so alone there was no one around there
was no one asking me anything and I just yeah
I think that's it just for any for whatever kind
of grief someone is going through it's okay for
you to show the emotion about someone's situation
because it allows them to show it too so i think
it's it's just you know get rid of the stiff
upper lip forget about not upsetting the person
just cry ugly cry all you need to just do it
I think it comes back to what I think he said,
right. We all said right at the beginning, it's
just bringing the humanity back into it. So Lisa,
just coming back to what you were saying, the
bit that resonated with me was that the nurses
did hold your hand. They did hug you. It's just
being human, I think. And I know we spoke about
empathy earlier on, but even for me, I'm thinking
sometimes leadership, you know, leaders and managers.
Friends, whoever, keep thinking about this word
empathy and, you know, we need to train our staff
in empathy. We need to be more empathetic. And
I just think we just need to be more human. I
don't, you know, forget even empathy, just be
a decent, caring human being. That's why I think
all of us experience what we've experienced and
experiencing. That's what we just need. We just
need people to be human. Yeah. And I think for
some, it's that stiff upper lip, right, is always
insinuating, making yourself feel like it's weak
if you show emotion. But actually having the
strength to show the emotion and be open about
it. I think it's really important that, look,
like I keep saying, we all keep saying grief
is individual and it's so dependent on your background
and your history with grief and the type of grief
that you're going through, the type of loss that
you're going through. But I think the more we
can talk. out loud about things the more comfortable
we get in ourselves with talking about it and
the more comfortable other people will become
as well like it's it's just so important to have
these difficult conversations out louder and
counseling again god i wish everybody could have
counseling because it would just it would just
help so many people in so many different ways
it would make it would people question you know
why why am i avoiding these difficult conversations
you know i've got someone crying in front of
me and i'm saying well you know well yeah it's
Friday so that's good isn't it and then like
walking off you know make people question that
a little bit more because it's it's human instinct
isn't it if somebody's crying surely it's human
instinct to want to help and support them and
and and just in the workplace you can't always
it's not always appropriate to give a hug but
it is that human to human connection it's not
weak to show emotion and not not we and not to
sit behind policies and procedures absolutely
say but policy says this you only have five days
you know compassionate leave or whatever it may
well don't even get me started on compassionate
leave yeah oh that is yeah i mean it's like you
you have the empathy but you use the empathy
to be compassionate compassionate is the action
that sits behind or goes in front of empathy
but i think it's I'm now a qualified counsellor
and I sit in the room and people show emotion
that they can't show in the outside world because
it doesn't feel safe. It doesn't feel accepted.
It doesn't feel normalised. So people are isolated
in what they're feeling. So they bring it into
the therapy room. But what we really need to
do is open it up so people feel safe to do it
in any forum. They can be vulnerable. They can
feel like they can express themselves. And it's
that going back to being human and how... Can
we challenge some of the practices in the workplace?
So for example, I've been working with an organization
around grief. So I've delivered workshops, but
then what I've done is had coaching pods. So
where people have come in together and they just
want a space to talk, to share, to open up, to
feel their grief, to express their grief. And
it makes such a difference. And the amount of
people, I've done quite a few sessions like this
and the comments and the number of people that
are saying, I haven't been. supported. I don't
feel supported. I feel isolated. And all sorts
happen as a result of that. So it's so important
to open up these conversations. And there are
some great practices from organisations who are
doing things around grief. They're having ERGs,
they're having sessions. And when you open it
up, you start to see the massive impact it is
having on people's lives. And then it gives an
opportunity to do something different to support
them. What would be, Anita, out of interest and
based on your experiences? as a qualified counsellor
supporting organisations, if you had to give
one piece of advice to a manager, for example,
who's navigating, whose team member's navigating
grief, what would that advice be? Ask them what
they need. Don't assume. Don't judge. Don't try
to fix. Don't give a solution. Ask the person.
So firstly, check in. How are you doing? How
are you really doing? I'm really interested to
know how this is impacting you at work, outside
of work. What do you need from me? What do you
need from the team? How can we support you? And
even just recognising that a big thing has happened
in your life and we want to make sure you're
not impacted and want to support you the best
way that we can. So you tell me what you need.
And if that person says, I don't know what I
need, then say, OK, let's start with practical
things like, OK, so are you able to be at work?
If they say, yes, I want to be at work. OK, so
let's look at your workload. How can we reduce
it? how can we maybe delegate it out and make
it manageable so that you're not you know trying
to function as you was before because that is
likely to be difficult obviously you don't want
to be telling the person this is how you're going
to be feeling but saying okay this this is what
might so it's all in the language and the other
thing and i think you've touched on it before
is not to minimize it and no no at least or why
don't you just because that does make the person
feel like oh what i'm feeling is it's not valid
it's i should be feeling better or whatever so
it's avoid solution mode, ask the person what
they need and also validate what they might be
feeling. That's brilliant. That's great advice.
And I really hope that people listening will
take that on board to really bring that humanity
back and really support individuals, whether
you're a manager, whether you're a friend, partner
or somebody, you know, whoever. I think those
things are really key and hopefully the stigma
of not talking about it starts the lesson. I
think you're right, Lisa and Sarah, we do need
to talk about it more. We should, not only at
work, but outside of work. I think what struck
me, Kavita, is it's difficult, right? But all
of us have jumped at the chance to share our
experiences and connect with each other. And
we've all had really hard, horrible... awful
things happen but we want to share with each
other and we want to connect we want to feel
safe amongst each other so there's a yearning
for us to do that it's just to your point Anita
how do we create those safe spaces outside of
the therapy room because you know it's not always
accessible to everybody I had great experiences
but it's not always an option and I think as
a leader of a team you can help to create some
of that safe space for sure Well, yeah, there's
also an opportunity for organisations to make
sure that people have access to wellbeing support
because I am in, I'm lucky I'm in a position
that I can pay for counselling. I don't have
to because we've got private medical insurance
where I am. And that was the same for previous
couple of places that I've been. But I know that
there are a lot of situations where that mental
health aspect side of things isn't, it's a bigger
priority for organisations, but I'm not confident
that every single organisation. has got the right
tools in place to do that. And I think, you know,
challenge it. If you can see that somebody, if
it's you that's dealing with that, or if you
can see like a member of staff or a friend or
family member that's dealing with that stuff,
you know, you can be that voice. You can put
something forward and say, hey, look, you know
what? I'm noticing this a lot. We don't have
something here. What are we doing about that?
You know, you do have a voice in that organisation
to try and make changes. I know that's probably
quite Disney -esque of me to... think that but
I've never worked somewhere that there aren't
ways that you can try and make a change. And
I think equally that is also making sure people
are aware of what you have available. So a lot
of people might not understand EAP. Maybe they
think it's not confidential. They don't know
that they can get therapy through private medical.
And I think it's always making sure people are
aware of what's out there. And also the other
services, because you're right, Lisa, a lot of
people do not have that in their organisations.
Organisations' budgets are tight, etc. I understand
that. I know we benefited from our local hospice.
So my dad in particular, and he had started his
counselling journey way before my mum had passed
away. And that's because my mum kind of encouraged
him, pushed him that way. And I think as an older
man, doesn't really talk about things like that,
but she was encouraging him to seek it out. But
the local hospices, if you don't have that support
within work or that opportunity to get counselling
via your own organisation, your local hospices
are absolutely amazing. They really, really are.
And they really will provide that. ongoing support.
and counselling for individuals as well. But
I think you're right. I think it's what have
we got in an organisation or workplace, but actually
what's on my doorstep? What's in my community
as well? Where can I go to? I think people don't
reach out enough to hospices who provide that
service. We think we have to go via our GP and
then we can't get an appointment and, you know,
get on a referral list, etc. Yeah, so really,
maybe that's the same thing organisations can
do to look in their local areas and say, OK,
we can't provide X, Y, Z, but we can signpost
you to other services that we work with. closely
with or recommend i'm just going to say cruise
is the largest bereavement charity they have
support groups and services and there's lots
of other smaller charities who offer more specialized
for example for children so it's always worth
looking online for charities that can offer support
i just i just wanted to caveat that by by saying
that if you are a leader and you're wanting to
help your member of staff, I would caveat by
just being mindful about how much information
you share, because especially when you're going
through any kind of grief, is that everything
is hugely overwhelming. And sometimes just having
to read even just an A4 piece of text, it feels
impossible. So sometimes it's getting the balance
right and signposting rather than going, you're
going through a really tough time. Here's 20
attachments in an email, signposting this, this,
this, this and this. You don't need that. You
need things to be very clear, very simple. You're
on autopilot. You need someone else sometimes
to do the thinking for you. Gosh, didn't think
it would be this emotional, to be honest. Yeah.
Bringing it all up. I suppose it just shows me
that, yeah, actually, it's difficult for a piece
to talk about. It really is. But this conversation
is one of conversations that could lead to many
others. And people listening, it might spark
something in them to talk more. I hope so. I
would like to ask everyone. want a question what's
i'll start with anita what's the what's the thing
you're most proud of yourself as you've have
moved through grief what's the thing that you've
learned most about yourself what's the thing
that you're proud most of yourself for I think
it's the recognizing that grief doesn't have
an end point and allowing myself to feel and
have compassion for myself when grief emerges
so for example for my mum when it's her birthday
when it's mother's day when it's you know her
anniversary it's knowing that actually it's okay
I am going to feel upset and it's normal and
there's this great video I came across on BBC
which And it talked about grief and there was
just a visual of, it depicts how grief forms
part of your life and your life grows around
it. And that for me was a turning point that
actually, yeah, grief is part of me now and it's
how I navigate and move forward. I think that's
it for me. Kavita, how about yourself? Mine's
probably slightly different to that. I think
mine, what I'm probably most proud of, I suppose,
is actually I'm a lot stronger than I thought
I was, a lot stronger than I thought I was. And
I think I now look back at my life and my upbringing.
And my mum's such a big influencer on that, thinking
it all kind of makes sense. It almost feels like
she was preparing us all for that moment. Her
health has never been good. You know, it never
was good. But it almost feels like everything
that how she raised us. Now I think, God, that's,
you know, that's made us actually more resilient.
And that's why we're so close as a family. And
it almost feels like she's preparing us for that
moment. It's really bizarre. But, you know, X
amount of years later. But yeah, so I think I'm
always proud of that. And I think the biggest
thing I've learned is you do need people. around
you even though you think you don't you absolutely
do even if it's just to sit there in silence
even if it is just to suddenly have you know
burst into fits of laughter with or sit there
I remember we were sitting with my mum's brother
until about 11 o 'clock midnight one of the days
and he was telling us all the same some of these
childhood stories he had bought loads of photo
albums etc and actually it was just really nice
and I think I've also learned that in grief you
there are some nice moments it's not It's not
what you see on Hollywood where somebody's passed
away and they'll be screaming and shouting and
crying and, you know, et cetera. That's what
blew me away that I expected me to be like that.
But I wasn't. It was very different. What about
you, Sarah? I think for me, I'm probably proud
of the perspective that it's given me. I think
it's allowed me to really focus on what's important
to me and actually what is just noise and that
I will just not be a part of or don't want to
be a part of anymore. I think it was interesting.
It actually really kick -started a career change
for me. So as horrendous as it was, I'll always
be really grateful as well to that moment for
giving me the sort of oomph to go and do something.
that's something I've heard a lot about around
like post -traumatic growth and you know it's
hard it's not that toxic positivity which I absolutely
despise but for me something good has come from
something awful and I can recognize that those
two things can exist at the same time it can
still be awful and also these really great things
happens and that's great too and I think allowing
those two sort of juxtapositions to to exist
at the same time for me like I'm proud of being
able to hold that and hold the messiness of it
as well at the same time how about you lisa i
have learned that i am stronger than i think
i am like physically tough as well as mentally
it's hard everything's been really really bloody
hard but i've surprised myself and the creative
ways i tell you that i was trying to get out
of that hospital bed and shuffling down like
a sausage and not being able to bend my hips
and just kind of rolling with it and waddling
around with my drains yeah I've learned that
I'm adaptive. Let's just put it that way. I'm
proudest now that as much as I've had to go through
all of that, I am proud that this week was my
first week volunteering for the breast reconstruction
team where I met other women that were at the
beginning of their breast reconstruction and
mastectomy journey. And I'm proud that I've been
a part of their story that's taken some of that
fear and anxiety away. You know, I'm really proud
that I get to help other people through that
and get them to see that it's it's horrible.
But you know what? Going to be OK. They do a
fantastic job at the reconstruction place as
well. So, yeah, I'm proud that I get to be part
of their journey and be there to help them through
through those stages. Thank you all so much.
Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. Connection.
Yeah. Seems to be a key theme. Right. Thank you.
Thank you, everyone. I think it's been great
to talk about. it and i hope we've made people
just stop and listen and think and maybe do differently
what an amazingly challenging episode we have
to admit that while listening we did shed a tear
or two navigating grief is a complex journey
that requires understanding compassion and open
communication in the workplace as well as with
family and friends A huge thank you to Kavita,
Anita, Lisa and Sarah -Jane for sharing their
very personal experiences so generously. You'll
find their details and all the links mentioned
in the show notes. Please do remember to like
and subscribe to the podcast on your podcast
player. It does make a real difference in helping
people find and recommend us. We're also actively
looking for guests to be on the podcast. If you're
interested, then please do get in touch via email
to hello at lan .com. We're back in a couple
of weeks, and next time it's the allyship one.
As always, thanks for listening, and we'll see
you again soon.