WEBVTT 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:14.519 Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:16.600 grief one, of the Women Talking About Learning 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:20.920 podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. Grief is an inevitable 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:23.480 part of life, yet it remains one of the most 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:26.219 challenging topics to discuss, especially in 00:00:26.219 --> 00:00:29.839 the workplace. This episode considers many different 00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:33.439 forms of grief. Just a heads up, this is not 00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:37.700 a usual type of episode, and you'll notice a 00:00:37.700 --> 00:00:40.770 bit longer than usual. Our first guest is Kavita 00:00:40.770 --> 00:00:44.109 Brown. Kavita is the owner and learning director 00:00:44.109 --> 00:00:47.729 for LDG Training. She is a highly experienced, 00:00:48.070 --> 00:00:51.229 independent trainer, facilitator and learning 00:00:51.229 --> 00:00:53.549 and development consultant, having worked across 00:00:53.549 --> 00:00:57.049 various sectors. Kavita has significant experience 00:00:57.049 --> 00:01:01.170 in a range of people roles across L &D, HR, recruitment 00:01:01.170 --> 00:01:05.129 and organisational design. Our second guest, 00:01:05.310 --> 00:01:08.290 Anita Guru, founder of The Mind Coach, is an 00:01:08.290 --> 00:01:11.409 experienced mindset coach, psychotherapeutic 00:01:11.409 --> 00:01:13.950 counsellor and motivational speaker with a background 00:01:13.950 --> 00:01:16.930 in occupational psychology. She has nearly two 00:01:16.930 --> 00:01:19.709 decades of learning, leadership and organisational 00:01:19.709 --> 00:01:22.290 development experience at organisations such 00:01:22.290 --> 00:01:26.349 as Deloitte, Centrica and Coca -Cola. Anita supports 00:01:26.349 --> 00:01:29.430 organisations to raise awareness and help employees 00:01:29.430 --> 00:01:32.989 navigate grief. Our next guest is Lisa Sharp. 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:36.120 Lisa is a senior learning consultant who designs 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:38.680 practical human -centred solutions that help 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:42.260 organisations turn strategy into meaningful behavioural 00:01:42.260 --> 00:01:44.879 change. With more than 15 years of experience 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:47.700 across a broad range of industries, she has led 00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:50.280 onboarding, leadership development and change 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:52.980 initiatives within complex regulated environments. 00:01:53.780 --> 00:01:57.200 Our final guest is Sarah -Jane Bellion. Sarah 00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:59.640 -Jane is the Leadership Capability Manager at 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:02.540 Centre Parcs UK and Ireland. Previously, she 00:02:02.540 --> 00:02:05.299 spent over 12 years at Marks & Spencer, most 00:02:05.299 --> 00:02:07.200 recently partnering with their retail operations 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:10.860 team. She designs learning experiences that spark 00:02:10.860 --> 00:02:13.840 curiosity, build confidence and make a lasting 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:16.340 impact, helping people to see themselves and 00:02:16.340 --> 00:02:19.080 their world a little differently. Recorded in 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:23.300 February 2026, this episode is a truly heartfelt 00:02:23.300 --> 00:02:26.500 conversation. This is Women Talking About Learning. 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:30.860 This is Kavita, Anita, Lisa and Sarah -Jane. 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:35.060 talking about grief. Hi everyone, so lovely to 00:02:35.060 --> 00:02:37.479 meet you all today to talk about what I think 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:41.159 is a real, really important subject. Just be 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:43.659 interested to hear from you guys, why are you 00:02:43.659 --> 00:02:47.099 on this podcast today? What made you think, yep, 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:51.460 this is the one for me? Lisa? Hi, hi Kavita. 00:02:52.060 --> 00:02:54.360 Do you know what, the reason why I chose the 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:57.240 grief one is because I've been through some stuff 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:01.870 and I think grief is such a complex topic and 00:03:01.870 --> 00:03:04.550 grief spans so many different things. It's not 00:03:04.550 --> 00:03:07.569 just about the loss of someone. For me, it's 00:03:07.569 --> 00:03:11.110 been very much about the loss of my perceived, 00:03:11.169 --> 00:03:14.870 what I had imagined to be my future self. And 00:03:14.870 --> 00:03:18.129 with a breast cancer diagnosis or a couple of 00:03:18.129 --> 00:03:20.990 them, yeah, grief has been an interesting one 00:03:20.990 --> 00:03:24.280 to navigate. So yeah, I think it's just... I 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:26.199 think it's a really important topic. I think 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:30.060 it's so applicable to everything in life, but 00:03:30.060 --> 00:03:32.439 especially when it comes to corporations and 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:36.800 supporting workers going through that grief process 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:40.099 in whatever way that is. Sarah, what about you? 00:03:40.500 --> 00:03:43.400 Yeah, probably similar in terms of I think it's 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:45.560 such an important thing for us to be talking 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:48.300 about. We're all going to experience it in some 00:03:48.300 --> 00:03:52.110 form. And yet we're really bad at talking about 00:03:52.110 --> 00:03:55.840 it, I think, through my experiences. The main 00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:58.199 thing really that I can sort of draw from is 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:00.659 I lost my dad in the first wave of the pandemic, 00:04:00.780 --> 00:04:03.680 COVID. And it was a weird time anyway, right? 00:04:03.780 --> 00:04:06.240 And lots of people lost lots of things. But the 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:09.300 way in which I was able or unable to grieve, 00:04:09.300 --> 00:04:13.379 alongside then seeing people's weird human reactions 00:04:13.379 --> 00:04:16.620 to somebody that was grieving, showed me that 00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:18.720 actually we're not very good at this. So, you 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.230 know, any opportunity that I get to... Where 00:04:21.230 --> 00:04:23.649 I'm going about grief, I want to speak about 00:04:23.649 --> 00:04:25.490 it and I want to share because I think it's so 00:04:25.490 --> 00:04:28.110 important people don't feel alone in that grief. 00:04:28.250 --> 00:04:32.319 So that's me. How about you, Anita? Hi, really 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:34.759 nice to be with you all here today. And I think 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:37.500 for me, it's also a lot of lived experience. 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:41.100 So losing my parents and then also experiencing 00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:44.459 infertility. So I think there's different kinds 00:04:44.459 --> 00:04:46.959 of grief, which people don't necessarily understand. 00:04:47.139 --> 00:04:49.480 And there are times where I didn't expect to 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:52.810 feel grief, but I did. I think just to echo what 00:04:52.810 --> 00:04:55.490 you were saying, people can feel incredibly isolated 00:04:55.490 --> 00:04:59.889 when they experience grief. And the more we normalize 00:04:59.889 --> 00:05:01.910 it, the more we talk about it, because we're 00:05:01.910 --> 00:05:04.430 all going to be hit by it at some stage in our 00:05:04.430 --> 00:05:06.949 lives. So I think the more we can talk about 00:05:06.949 --> 00:05:10.069 it, people are less likely to do it alone and 00:05:10.069 --> 00:05:13.589 suffer alone. So I think that's one of my big 00:05:13.589 --> 00:05:17.089 drivers. And I'm just wondering also for you, 00:05:17.110 --> 00:05:20.899 Kavita, what's your... What's your why in joining 00:05:20.899 --> 00:05:24.680 this conversation? We lost our mum in December 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:27.980 of 2024 and she was at end of life. We managed 00:05:27.980 --> 00:05:29.779 to bring her home and we were caring for her, 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:32.079 myself, my siblings and my dad. And I remember 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:34.899 really late at night, her syringe driver started 00:05:34.899 --> 00:05:36.639 to beep. So I had to bring the hospice nurses 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:39.019 for them to come out to check it. And as I was 00:05:39.019 --> 00:05:40.560 trying to stay up at five o 'clock in the morning, 00:05:40.740 --> 00:05:43.899 I kind of was reflecting on everything that was 00:05:43.899 --> 00:05:46.139 happening. Also scrolling through LinkedIn at 00:05:46.139 --> 00:05:48.199 the same time. And I suppose a couple of things 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:50.839 for me really resonated. And the first was our 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:53.560 own experiences. So myself, my two siblings, 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:57.199 our partners as well. We all had completely different 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.660 experiences when we look at it from how our organisations 00:06:00.660 --> 00:06:02.939 treated us while we were going through that. 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.060 Some managers and organisations were amazing, 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:09.779 but one in particular absolutely wasn't and didn't 00:06:09.779 --> 00:06:11.740 really get it and didn't really understand. And 00:06:11.740 --> 00:06:14.060 the impact that then had on one of my siblings 00:06:14.060 --> 00:06:15.949 as well, while he's... We're trying to support 00:06:15.949 --> 00:06:17.949 my mum who's at end of life, but he's getting 00:06:17.949 --> 00:06:20.089 all of this pressure from work. Just wasn't needed. 00:06:20.370 --> 00:06:22.629 And whilst scrolling through LinkedIn, I then 00:06:22.629 --> 00:06:25.610 put a post up literally about a heartfelt plea 00:06:25.610 --> 00:06:27.350 to managers. You know, if you've got people going 00:06:27.350 --> 00:06:28.970 through this, your team's going through this, 00:06:29.069 --> 00:06:30.790 please be supportive. Please be understanding. 00:06:31.149 --> 00:06:33.410 This is our lived experience. And I gave them 00:06:33.410 --> 00:06:35.949 some examples. And I was blown away by the amount 00:06:35.949 --> 00:06:38.350 of comments that then came up on the LinkedIn. 00:06:38.430 --> 00:06:41.250 And some people had the most. amazing support 00:06:41.250 --> 00:06:43.610 network from their organisation and their managers. 00:06:43.730 --> 00:06:46.230 But horrifically, some of them didn't. And some 00:06:46.230 --> 00:06:48.089 of those comments on there just really broke 00:06:48.089 --> 00:06:50.790 my heart. So I think from a learning perspective, 00:06:51.149 --> 00:06:53.410 you're right, Sarah, I don't think people talk 00:06:53.410 --> 00:06:55.930 about it enough. And I don't think we as a society, 00:06:56.250 --> 00:06:58.189 maybe it's a cultural thing, but in society, 00:06:58.209 --> 00:07:00.009 we don't talk about it enough. And therefore, 00:07:00.029 --> 00:07:03.189 I don't think managers are prepared. A lot of 00:07:03.189 --> 00:07:05.670 the policies all state at manager's discretion. 00:07:06.009 --> 00:07:08.060 But what does that actually mean? And I think 00:07:08.060 --> 00:07:10.720 a lot of managers don't know how to handle it. 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:12.720 I mean, I've heard managers say, well, I haven't 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.240 experienced it, so just get on with it. So, yeah, 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:17.319 I think for me, it really was something that 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:19.560 actually there's a valuable learning in there 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:21.459 for everybody, not just our own experiences, 00:07:21.459 --> 00:07:22.879 what we're going through and what some of my 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:25.120 siblings unfortunately faced during that event, 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:27.459 but also that wider impact on organisations. 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.240 I know, Lisa, you spoke about organisations as 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:32.160 well and really getting them to understand and 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:34.560 be supportive, whatever that grief looks like. 00:07:34.759 --> 00:07:37.819 Does anybody know? And we think of why, why is 00:07:37.819 --> 00:07:39.379 that happening? Why don't we talk? Because there 00:07:39.379 --> 00:07:41.060 are some cultures out there, different cultures 00:07:41.060 --> 00:07:43.600 out there who are really expressive, really speak 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:46.120 about it, really support individuals through 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:48.879 that whole grief stages, mourning, et cetera. 00:07:49.930 --> 00:07:52.430 I can't put my finger on why we don't. It's very 00:07:52.430 --> 00:07:55.189 much we walk across, we're across the road to 00:07:55.189 --> 00:07:57.509 not ask that question or speak to somebody. I 00:07:57.509 --> 00:08:02.769 have thoughts. It's easy to hide behind a process 00:08:02.769 --> 00:08:05.310 or to follow a process than it is to think about 00:08:05.310 --> 00:08:08.500 having to. be a human when it comes to to corporations 00:08:08.500 --> 00:08:11.160 and i think there's two different very different 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:13.339 organizations that i've worked in and the last 00:08:13.339 --> 00:08:15.000 couple i've worked in have been quite people 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:18.000 centric the one i mean currently is is very people 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.600 orientated and in previous employment it's been 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:22.720 very much around well we've got to follow this 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:25.699 process and you know i've been a manager in retail 00:08:25.699 --> 00:08:28.379 witnessing you know somebody's you know losing 00:08:28.379 --> 00:08:31.490 their grandparent who's their main person that 00:08:31.490 --> 00:08:33.950 you know brought them up and the attitude was 00:08:33.950 --> 00:08:36.149 very much well what's he doing it's just his 00:08:36.149 --> 00:08:39.309 grandma and it's just you can't you can't say 00:08:39.309 --> 00:08:43.129 that you know you've got a it's a It's an emotion. 00:08:43.529 --> 00:08:47.669 And I think organizations sometimes get so lost 00:08:47.669 --> 00:08:51.090 in the process of what we've got to do and the 00:08:51.090 --> 00:08:53.570 tick boxes that we have to follow that they forget 00:08:53.570 --> 00:08:56.769 how to to human. They forget the compassion and 00:08:56.769 --> 00:09:00.549 the understanding and the complexity of grief. 00:09:00.690 --> 00:09:03.230 You know, grief isn't just grief is like this 00:09:03.230 --> 00:09:05.769 thing that you just walk around with and you 00:09:05.769 --> 00:09:09.250 live with. And it's always. always there and 00:09:09.250 --> 00:09:12.470 over time it gets easier to manage you know you 00:09:12.470 --> 00:09:15.029 can kind of put it to one side to a certain degree 00:09:15.029 --> 00:09:17.149 but something's always going to come and knock 00:09:17.149 --> 00:09:19.230 you off your feet again and then you've got this 00:09:19.230 --> 00:09:22.129 grief bubble surrounding you again and it's it's 00:09:22.129 --> 00:09:25.480 not something that It gets easier to deal with 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:28.580 in terms of living with it, but the emotions 00:09:28.580 --> 00:09:31.279 are still there. I suppose you find ways to, 00:09:31.340 --> 00:09:33.639 when I look at my journey, I think I've just 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:35.759 found ways to keep putting one foot in front 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:39.039 of the other and way to kind of like navigate 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.399 way through a new life now without, you know, 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:43.799 mumming the head of our family kind of thing 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:47.059 as well. But yeah, I think that's interesting 00:09:47.059 --> 00:09:49.259 when you say that some managers, organisations 00:09:49.259 --> 00:09:52.220 forget the human in there. Now, I was going to 00:09:52.220 --> 00:09:54.659 say what that really draws on is empathy. So 00:09:54.659 --> 00:09:57.299 the lack of empathy in the workplace. So if you 00:09:57.299 --> 00:09:59.840 haven't been through a loss, what you do as a 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:01.960 manager, for example, you draw on the empathy 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.200 and imagine how it might feel. Imagine what that 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.620 person might need. And from like, for example, 00:10:07.620 --> 00:10:11.080 when I lost my mum and I went back to work, I 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:13.259 think when I was in the grief, I couldn't see 00:10:13.259 --> 00:10:16.179 how deep I was in it. So it almost takes a manager 00:10:16.179 --> 00:10:19.629 to be able to recognise. that okay this person's 00:10:19.629 --> 00:10:22.909 had a big loss in their life i had i had brain 00:10:22.909 --> 00:10:25.509 fog i couldn't concentrate i couldn't function 00:10:25.509 --> 00:10:29.350 at the capacity i was before that and that was 00:10:29.350 --> 00:10:32.269 really hard for me to be able to to work but 00:10:32.269 --> 00:10:35.370 i just did it what went to work work wore the 00:10:35.370 --> 00:10:39.129 mask because you're expected to be over it after 00:10:39.129 --> 00:10:41.649 a certain period of time but i think we were 00:10:41.649 --> 00:10:44.649 touching on there is it never goes it forms a 00:10:44.649 --> 00:10:46.710 part of your life and your life builds around 00:10:46.710 --> 00:10:50.210 it Yeah, absolutely. I think that's what I was 00:10:50.210 --> 00:10:52.389 just going to draw on, Anita, the piece around 00:10:52.389 --> 00:10:54.889 it perhaps doesn't actually get easier. It's 00:10:54.889 --> 00:10:57.070 just our lives get bigger. Our lives continue. 00:10:57.129 --> 00:11:00.190 The grief stays the same, actually. But our lives 00:11:00.190 --> 00:11:03.110 continue around that grief. And so there's more 00:11:03.110 --> 00:11:05.470 things taking our attention, whereas at the moment 00:11:05.470 --> 00:11:08.529 of that grief really hitting hard, that full, 00:11:08.649 --> 00:11:11.789 full attention. I think kind of that question 00:11:11.789 --> 00:11:15.009 around why do we not? talk about it it's because 00:11:15.009 --> 00:11:17.730 it's dirty right it's it's hard it's uncomfortable 00:11:17.730 --> 00:11:22.149 it's really difficult to talk about it's messy 00:11:22.149 --> 00:11:25.769 grief doesn't look one way it's not the picture 00:11:25.769 --> 00:11:29.049 of somebody crying it's not the picture of somebody 00:11:29.049 --> 00:11:32.129 um not being able to function quite often you 00:11:32.129 --> 00:11:35.019 can be grieving and life continues you know there's 00:11:35.019 --> 00:11:38.080 a dark humor around grief and that's certainly 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:40.799 what helped me through quite a lot of difficult 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:43.139 times and I think that's why people struggle 00:11:43.139 --> 00:11:44.840 but I think you're right Kavita I definitely 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:47.340 have seen and when I've been sort of traveling 00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:49.919 I had the privilege of being able to sort of 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:52.299 witnessed some funerals that were happening in 00:11:52.299 --> 00:11:55.580 Nepal and it is so different and it was the the 00:11:55.580 --> 00:11:59.659 outward expression of grief at that moment is 00:11:59.659 --> 00:12:02.379 like nothing I've ever witnessed and that's always 00:12:02.379 --> 00:12:05.259 sort of stuck with me that we we just don't really 00:12:05.259 --> 00:12:08.659 have that And funerals, I think as a child, I 00:12:08.659 --> 00:12:11.679 was never invited to attend funerals. I don't 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:14.100 know if that plays out for any of you guys. I 00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:17.480 sadly did. We had a lot of elderly relatives 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:19.940 and my great grandma, for example. I can't remember 00:12:19.940 --> 00:12:22.159 how old I was, but I do remember that my dad 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.879 was holding me during this and in caring me during 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:27.419 the funeral. So I must have been two, three maybe 00:12:27.419 --> 00:12:30.820 when she passed away. But I suppose in our families, 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.450 in my culture, we always... Yeah, the kids have 00:12:33.450 --> 00:12:35.090 always gone there, but that hasn't progressed 00:12:35.090 --> 00:12:37.610 into the next generation. So when I look at my 00:12:37.610 --> 00:12:40.129 friends or my family who've had kids and they're 00:12:40.129 --> 00:12:42.629 younger, they just do not take them to funerals 00:12:42.629 --> 00:12:44.409 whatsoever. It's almost like we try to protect 00:12:44.409 --> 00:12:47.049 them. Do you think then, Sarah, building what 00:12:47.049 --> 00:12:49.330 you said, do you think we don't want to talk 00:12:49.330 --> 00:12:51.750 about it because we don't, not only that it's 00:12:51.750 --> 00:12:54.330 so complex, but that we don't want to think about 00:12:54.330 --> 00:12:55.830 it. We don't want to think about it because that 00:12:55.830 --> 00:12:57.509 means we have to think about it for ourselves 00:12:57.509 --> 00:13:01.769 as well. Perhaps, perhaps there's a denial. aspect 00:13:01.769 --> 00:13:05.710 I think if you've not experienced a loss of some 00:13:05.710 --> 00:13:07.309 kind because right we're saying that grief isn't 00:13:07.309 --> 00:13:09.669 just about somebody dying it could be lots of 00:13:09.669 --> 00:13:12.889 different versions of grief if you've not experienced 00:13:12.889 --> 00:13:15.590 that so far in your life it's quite difficult 00:13:15.590 --> 00:13:19.230 to put yourself into those shoes and I think 00:13:19.230 --> 00:13:22.049 we often sort of confuse sympathy with empathy 00:13:22.049 --> 00:13:24.590 etc I know we were talking about that a moment 00:13:24.590 --> 00:13:26.960 ago Anita But I just think it's because it's 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:29.899 really hard. They're really hard conversations 00:13:29.899 --> 00:13:33.600 to have and they require a level of vulnerability. 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:37.480 You know, we're here talking about this. I don't 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:40.220 typically talk about this in a public forum, 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.799 but I'll talk to everybody. that I can that I 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:44.379 meet that wants to talk about it but I'm really 00:13:44.379 --> 00:13:47.399 bad at talking to my family about it and they're 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:49.539 the people that are experiencing it alongside 00:13:49.539 --> 00:13:52.539 me and I'm here going we should talk about it 00:13:52.539 --> 00:13:55.019 more I can't talk to my family about it so I 00:13:55.019 --> 00:13:57.179 think it's because it's really hard I think I 00:13:57.179 --> 00:14:00.340 found it Oh, this is a tough podcast, you know, 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:03.059 because this is going to bring up emotions, isn't 00:14:03.059 --> 00:14:05.899 it? I've been through two breast cancer episodes. 00:14:06.220 --> 00:14:09.120 My right one tried to get me five years ago. 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.139 And then my left one tried to get me in August 00:14:12.139 --> 00:14:17.720 last year. And you're facing your mortality because 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:21.639 you don't know what the outcome is going to be 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:26.059 when you get that diagnosis. And understandably, 00:14:26.139 --> 00:14:29.320 people don't know what to do with that at all 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:34.580 because it's really interesting to see how people 00:14:34.580 --> 00:14:37.200 have different friends and family react in those 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:39.899 situations as well. My brother was very much, 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:43.139 I want to drop everything, talk to me. And he 00:14:43.139 --> 00:14:45.799 was there from the offset. And then you have 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:50.009 friends that they don't. know what to say so 00:14:50.009 --> 00:14:53.690 they do. I had friends turn up and spend the 00:14:53.690 --> 00:14:55.509 night with me because I was scared to be on my 00:14:55.509 --> 00:15:01.330 own. I had friends turn up with meals that they 00:15:01.330 --> 00:15:03.590 cooked for me or just turned up just to cook 00:15:03.590 --> 00:15:07.610 or just to sit with me. Going into hospital I 00:15:07.610 --> 00:15:09.370 was getting really, really overwhelmed because 00:15:09.370 --> 00:15:12.049 I ended up having to have a double mastectomy 00:15:12.049 --> 00:15:16.269 and reconstructive surgery last year and I was 00:15:16.269 --> 00:15:19.480 just terrified. And I think one thing, one of 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:21.120 my friends turned up and cleaned my house for 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:23.039 me because that was, you just obsess over the 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:24.600 weirdest things when you're going through some 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:27.240 of that. But it's just what I found was that 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.240 the first time around, I didn't talk so much 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:31.659 about it. I kept it bottled up. I didn't want 00:15:31.659 --> 00:15:35.179 to upset any people. I use comfort, I use humour 00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:38.259 as a defence mechanism and as a protective thing. 00:15:38.419 --> 00:15:40.299 You know, if I make people laugh, then I can 00:15:40.299 --> 00:15:42.360 make other people's discomfort more comfortable. 00:15:42.659 --> 00:15:46.879 And this time I didn't do that. I spoke really 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:50.179 openly and rawly about it. And I think showing 00:15:50.179 --> 00:15:53.519 that vulnerability and letting people in and 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:56.039 see the ugly side of it, because grief isn't 00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:59.200 sexy, but that ugly side of grief, seeing the 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:02.019 ugly crying and the desperation and the fear 00:16:02.019 --> 00:16:04.399 and the unknown, it just meant that they could 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:08.259 find their own way with things. They could find 00:16:08.259 --> 00:16:10.360 their own way to show me love and to show me 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.679 support and to show up when I needed them the 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:17.500 most. Sometimes people just send me messages 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:20.600 saying, I don't know what to say. Yeah. I'm just 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.019 sorry. I think that's the thing, isn't it? Sometimes 00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:25.659 I don't think I would expect anybody to say the 00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:28.019 right thing or even say anything to me. Sometimes 00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:31.179 it's just having somebody there who will. You're 00:16:31.179 --> 00:16:32.960 right. You know, those people that actually do 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:34.679 show up, they don't know what to say, but they'll 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:36.779 just help you in whatever way that may well be. 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:40.120 That will send that message to you when you're 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:42.769 having a bad day or just check in on you. I think 00:16:42.769 --> 00:16:45.149 sometimes I think we, do we overthink it? Do 00:16:45.149 --> 00:16:47.210 we think, well, I don't really know what to say. 00:16:47.269 --> 00:16:48.909 What if I make the situation worse? What if I 00:16:48.909 --> 00:16:50.789 make them upset? So it's better to cross the 00:16:50.789 --> 00:16:52.769 road and avoid them. And I would always say, 00:16:52.909 --> 00:16:55.309 but you don't have to say anything. You just 00:16:55.309 --> 00:16:58.509 have to be there. I think saying, I always thought 00:16:58.509 --> 00:17:00.110 that saying something was better than saying 00:17:00.110 --> 00:17:04.470 nothing. But then I was met with toxic positivity 00:17:04.470 --> 00:17:08.569 of, or cheer up, or you'll look great with a 00:17:08.569 --> 00:17:12.640 bald head. or it will get better whoa whoa whoa 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:18.240 whoa no because it kind of minimizes what you're 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.759 what you're kind of going through and I'd like 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.380 to think that you know with the the loss of you 00:17:23.380 --> 00:17:26.460 know your your parents in your situations Anita 00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:29.599 Sarah and Kavita I I'd like to think that nobody 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:31.619 turned around and said well cheer up it could 00:17:31.619 --> 00:17:35.880 be worse I did have it could be worse I mean 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:40.259 yeah maybe but everyone's situation is it's your 00:17:40.259 --> 00:17:43.099 own experience and there is no right or wrong 00:17:43.099 --> 00:17:45.599 way of dealing with grief i think just showing 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:49.180 showing up in some way rather than just sit sitting 00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:51.160 there silently observing and coming back where 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:53.940 everything's a bit lighter i think it's you can't 00:17:53.940 --> 00:17:57.420 really avoid the heavy stuff and i think to to 00:17:57.420 --> 00:18:01.109 sarah's point earlier it was I think people are, 00:18:01.250 --> 00:18:03.849 you're mirroring their worst fears. And I think 00:18:03.849 --> 00:18:06.630 that's a biggie for people to kind of, a hurdle 00:18:06.630 --> 00:18:08.730 for people to get around. I think you've hit 00:18:08.730 --> 00:18:11.369 the nail on the head. Sorry, Anita. I was just 00:18:11.369 --> 00:18:13.430 going to say, I think it's that people want to 00:18:13.430 --> 00:18:15.490 have a solution. They want to come to you with 00:18:15.490 --> 00:18:17.690 a solution. They want to make it better. They 00:18:17.690 --> 00:18:20.829 want to take it all away. And so they might just 00:18:20.829 --> 00:18:23.549 then shut down and do nothing or just do, say 00:18:23.549 --> 00:18:26.299 and do the wrong thing. But I think what... I 00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:28.880 think the biggest thing is people are avoiding 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:31.859 big emotions in themselves and they're trying 00:18:31.859 --> 00:18:35.460 to avoid provoking emotions in you or making 00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:37.859 you feel an emotion when you're feeling it anyway. 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:40.839 So it's almost like. You sometimes have to just 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:44.319 sit with these difficult emotions and maybe experience 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:47.599 it together. Imagine what it might be like and 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:50.180 just allow that to happen because the emotions 00:18:50.180 --> 00:18:53.460 don't evaporate. They don't just appear. They 00:18:53.460 --> 00:18:55.640 need to be experienced. And that's a massive 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:57.980 part of grief. No, you're right. I think Andrew's 00:18:57.980 --> 00:19:00.359 also mentioned that people use the word battle, 00:19:00.500 --> 00:19:03.019 but it's not a battle. It's not a battle. It's 00:19:03.019 --> 00:19:04.240 not something you're going to win. I think for 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:06.980 me, my experience has been it's finding a different 00:19:06.980 --> 00:19:10.289 way of living now. As a family, you know, mum's 00:19:10.289 --> 00:19:12.190 not there no more. She's been with us since day 00:19:12.190 --> 00:19:15.170 one. The kind of, the wise person in our family 00:19:15.170 --> 00:19:16.809 that everybody always went to, I always called 00:19:16.809 --> 00:19:18.829 her the glue that kept us together. And we're 00:19:18.829 --> 00:19:20.990 all, all of us, grandkids included, my dad included, 00:19:21.109 --> 00:19:24.369 just navigating, trying to figure out what does 00:19:24.369 --> 00:19:27.329 life look like now and how does that work for 00:19:27.329 --> 00:19:30.250 us now as a family or as individuals and everything. 00:19:30.509 --> 00:19:32.309 And I don't think it's a battle that you'll, 00:19:32.349 --> 00:19:33.950 it's not a battle that it starts when you're 00:19:33.950 --> 00:19:36.150 going to win and suddenly get over it. It is 00:19:36.150 --> 00:19:38.710 just trying to navigate. I keep saying, all I've 00:19:38.710 --> 00:19:40.529 been doing is just for the past year and a bit, 00:19:40.589 --> 00:19:42.289 putting one foot in front of the other. And I 00:19:42.289 --> 00:19:44.089 think that's all you can do. But you do. I think 00:19:44.089 --> 00:19:45.809 you're right. You need that support around you. 00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:48.509 I know you mentioned earlier, Lisa. I'm interested 00:19:48.509 --> 00:19:50.490 to hear from you, Sarah and Anita as well. What 00:19:50.490 --> 00:19:53.109 was your experience like in the workplace when 00:19:53.109 --> 00:19:56.289 you were going through this? Oh, heavy. It was 00:19:56.289 --> 00:20:00.349 as terrible as cancer is. I just experienced 00:20:00.349 --> 00:20:04.569 nothing but compassion and love. and space and 00:20:04.569 --> 00:20:07.990 understanding. And grief is different for everybody 00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:11.490 and you need different things. And Anita mentioned 00:20:11.490 --> 00:20:15.009 earlier that you didn't know, you didn't recognize 00:20:15.009 --> 00:20:18.329 that you were in these stages. You knew that 00:20:18.329 --> 00:20:20.650 you were in grief, but you didn't recognize the 00:20:20.650 --> 00:20:22.650 help, your support you kind of needed because 00:20:22.650 --> 00:20:24.509 you're just, you have to get on with things. 00:20:24.609 --> 00:20:26.470 You have to, because you've got your bills to 00:20:26.470 --> 00:20:30.279 pay and sometimes you do need, it's hard. Because 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:34.099 companies are companies, but you do need someone, 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:37.579 you do need a colleague or a leader that takes 00:20:37.579 --> 00:20:39.980 a step back at the moment and says, look, should 00:20:39.980 --> 00:20:43.859 you be at work right now? I came out of, I had 00:20:43.859 --> 00:20:46.059 my breast, I had my double mastectomy and breast 00:20:46.059 --> 00:20:49.839 reconstruction on the 3rd of October. And that's 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:52.799 a, the reconstruction involved surgery, removing 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.119 muscle and tissue from both of my legs. So I 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.059 couldn't walk properly at first. I couldn't sit. 00:20:59.339 --> 00:21:01.160 properly. And then I couldn't really lift. I 00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:03.720 was kind of like a sausage, just kind of lying 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.920 in bed, moving around a little bit. And then 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:09.240 after a week I got let out. And I think it got 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:12.859 to the point where Sunday night I'd watched 20, 00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:15.960 48 hours of TV. I'd been lying in bed like a 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:18.519 sausage for a week. And I messaged my boss and 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:21.539 I just said, I cannot. I cannot do this for another 00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:24.420 five weeks. I'm going to lose my mind. I need 00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:27.180 to do something. And I asked to go back to work 00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:29.960 on that following week. And he's just like, I 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:33.380 don't know about that. Let's catch up and have 00:21:33.380 --> 00:21:36.299 a conversation first. And my friend's mum actually 00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:39.180 came to live with me for a week after surgery. 00:21:39.259 --> 00:21:43.000 And she said. over my dead body are you going 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:45.900 back to work and it's like you need those people 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:48.220 looking out for you to be that kind of mirror 00:21:48.220 --> 00:21:50.900 to say hey you know what something big has happened 00:21:50.900 --> 00:21:54.059 here and yeah like physically you're broken and 00:21:54.059 --> 00:21:56.519 actually mentally i think this is quite the right 00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:59.420 time to be to be rushing back doing that sometimes 00:21:59.420 --> 00:22:02.660 you're so desperate to cling on to what you your 00:22:02.660 --> 00:22:04.920 former self like this is a new version of you 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:07.559 now like what you were before that's that's not 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:09.779 you now you've got a different version and you're 00:22:09.779 --> 00:22:11.619 trying to live with what's changed you're trying 00:22:11.619 --> 00:22:15.160 to live with a future with ambiguity or uncertainty 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:19.059 or without someone in there and that's hard but 00:22:19.059 --> 00:22:20.619 it's good that you i would say it's good that 00:22:20.619 --> 00:22:23.900 you have that boss to kind of no you're not Okay, 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:26.000 as much as you think you are, but so it sounds 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:28.559 like you had that kind of level of support. I 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.680 can imagine that there must be bosses out there 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:32.960 that would be, yeah, okay, come back. We'll give 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:35.140 you this project to do and not really think about 00:22:35.140 --> 00:22:38.799 you as a person and having that, your own wellbeing, 00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:41.140 your own mental health, your own physical health 00:22:41.140 --> 00:22:44.400 that sits in with that. Yeah. And just, I suppose 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:47.500 on the flip side, there are some people who actually 00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:50.500 need it. I know Lisa, you had. you know massive 00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:53.339 surgery you need to physically rest but some 00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:56.220 people experience who's grief for maybe losing 00:22:56.220 --> 00:22:59.700 a loved one it might be that they say you know 00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:02.200 what I need work at the moment because I need 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:04.700 a distraction but then I think it's for the manager 00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:07.660 to say actually let's look at what you are able 00:23:07.660 --> 00:23:10.579 to do what's do it so not give you your full 00:23:10.579 --> 00:23:13.259 remit maybe you come back on a phase return maybe 00:23:13.259 --> 00:23:16.859 you do reduced amount of work but so it's I think 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:19.339 it's working flexibly and not taking a one -sided 00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:22.140 fits all approach but really having the conversation 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:25.519 understand where the person's at are they actually 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:27.900 able to is it going to add more pressure and 00:23:27.900 --> 00:23:31.819 stress and coming up with a plan and i know that 00:23:31.819 --> 00:23:34.440 sometimes managers feel like they're you know 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.720 they're restricted because of policies etc but 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:41.400 take a human approach You know yourself, you're 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:44.680 a human. You know what might be best. Have conversations 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:48.960 on their behalf with HR or whoever and make those 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.359 changes because people remember these things. 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:55.440 They are going to remember when I went through 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:57.960 my difficult time, my manager came through for 00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:01.099 me. They're more likely to be, you know. a lot 00:24:01.099 --> 00:24:03.619 more loyal a lot more productive a lot more happier 00:24:03.619 --> 00:24:06.099 in their teams and it and it goes back to the 00:24:06.099 --> 00:24:08.480 whole psychological safety aspect as well you're 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:10.660 building that trust through all of these interactions 00:24:10.660 --> 00:24:13.640 so i think for managers is to really trust in 00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:16.299 yourself knowing what you know your person in 00:24:16.299 --> 00:24:18.960 your team best than anyone and working with them 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.339 to figure out actually how can i support them 00:24:21.339 --> 00:24:23.220 through this I think that's really interesting 00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:25.740 as you talk about that. I'm sitting here reflecting 00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:29.759 because my experience is really hard to relate 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:32.420 to any of what we've talked about because it 00:24:32.420 --> 00:24:36.359 was a time where the world didn't know what was 00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:38.960 happening, right? So up until a couple of days 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.680 that my dad was taken to hospital, I was still 00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:45.319 working in my job and my job at the time was 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.210 for a large retailer where... We were essential 00:24:48.210 --> 00:24:50.569 workers, right? So people were coming. We were 00:24:50.569 --> 00:24:53.769 having to enforce people standing two metres 00:24:53.769 --> 00:24:55.869 away from each other. A certain amount of people 00:24:55.869 --> 00:24:58.329 coming into the shop to get their food. So I 00:24:58.329 --> 00:25:02.150 was surrounded by this thing, which ultimately 00:25:02.150 --> 00:25:06.069 a couple of days later took my dad away from 00:25:06.069 --> 00:25:10.450 me. And so it was a really, it was so, I can 00:25:10.450 --> 00:25:13.289 sit and reflect now and think about it differently 00:25:13.289 --> 00:25:16.359 because nobody knew. how to handle that situation, 00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:19.259 let alone somebody in their team that had then 00:25:19.259 --> 00:25:21.140 been impacted by this thing that seemed like 00:25:21.140 --> 00:25:23.519 science fiction, right? It didn't feel like this 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:26.859 was real. We're just this weird things happening. 00:25:27.140 --> 00:25:30.900 And so I've got real sort of kindness and empathy 00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:33.039 towards the people that were really trying their 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:36.279 best to support me, but I didn't feel supported, 00:25:36.380 --> 00:25:39.420 but I don't think it was there. It was such a 00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:43.259 unique, weird situation. I think the bits for 00:25:43.259 --> 00:25:44.920 me that were really difficult as somebody that 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:47.480 was going through that, we've talked about support, 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:49.700 right? There was no support. I had been in the 00:25:49.700 --> 00:25:53.200 hospital with my dad and therefore was deemed 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:56.579 as having to isolate for sort of two weeks after. 00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.839 I didn't want to go and stay. where I lived on 00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:02.519 my own for two weeks after watching my dad die. 00:26:02.740 --> 00:26:05.140 So I went and lived with my mum and moved back 00:26:05.140 --> 00:26:07.359 into my childhood home for two weeks, which was 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.700 the hardest experience being with somebody who 00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:12.680 had not been able to see their partner of nearly 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:15.640 40 years, sort of say goodbye to him. I was the 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.440 conduit for that, right? Didn't even have a video. 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:21.059 It was just via telephone. He wasn't conscious. 00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:24.819 But having to move back in to that home and be 00:26:24.819 --> 00:26:28.670 stuck, there was no escape. I remember... As 00:26:28.670 --> 00:26:31.990 soon as that isolation period was over, the first 00:26:31.990 --> 00:26:34.910 thing I did was I borrowed my mom's bike and 00:26:34.910 --> 00:26:38.309 I just cycled down the canals. And the one thing 00:26:38.309 --> 00:26:40.009 I'm getting quite emotional because the one thing 00:26:40.009 --> 00:26:43.170 that I can really remember is how alive everything 00:26:43.170 --> 00:26:47.130 felt and seeing the nature and the water and 00:26:47.130 --> 00:26:49.609 the sunshine. It just felt so alive. So for me, 00:26:49.630 --> 00:26:51.369 it was a really weird experience because all 00:26:51.369 --> 00:26:54.599 of my. I was really like forced to sit with my 00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:57.900 emotions and I was forced to sort of I couldn't 00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:59.480 shy away from it. It was everything that was 00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:02.099 on the telly. I was there. I had my mum there. 00:27:02.339 --> 00:27:04.440 And then as soon as I was able to go, it was 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.660 like, oh, actually, there is this other there 00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:10.660 is a world that's continuing to move. Like nature 00:27:10.660 --> 00:27:13.619 has been so healing for me to like this is nature. 00:27:14.269 --> 00:27:16.890 It doesn't take away from how awful things are 00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:19.630 and how difficult it can be. But this is also 00:27:19.630 --> 00:27:22.609 the cycle of life. And that for me has been super, 00:27:22.690 --> 00:27:24.750 super helpful. It's allowed me a perspective. 00:27:25.210 --> 00:27:27.410 It's given me comfort and it's allowed me to 00:27:27.410 --> 00:27:29.349 hold on to something when things have felt really, 00:27:29.410 --> 00:27:31.809 really difficult. Well, thanks for sharing that, 00:27:31.849 --> 00:27:33.930 Sarah. That sounds like it was really tough to 00:27:33.930 --> 00:27:35.730 share with us. And I think you're right. I think 00:27:35.730 --> 00:27:39.029 we've underestimated the impact the pandemic 00:27:39.029 --> 00:27:42.309 had. And when people did lose people over there, 00:27:42.410 --> 00:27:44.970 their loved ones over that pandemic period. And 00:27:44.970 --> 00:27:46.630 I think you're right, it's a different sense 00:27:46.630 --> 00:27:49.569 of grief. And I think for me, it almost seems 00:27:49.569 --> 00:27:53.309 it's even more so. I don't know how I'm trying 00:27:53.309 --> 00:27:55.710 to do the words now, but yeah, it seems like 00:27:55.710 --> 00:27:58.009 a bit more prolonged, if you like. And it's still 00:27:58.009 --> 00:28:00.809 sat there because you didn't have those people 00:28:00.809 --> 00:28:02.509 around you in that. Yeah, it's very different. 00:28:02.710 --> 00:28:05.250 Yeah, I guess it's delayed, like complex grief, 00:28:05.349 --> 00:28:08.109 I guess, when the... normal rituals and routines 00:28:08.109 --> 00:28:09.869 that we're used to even if we're recognizing 00:28:09.869 --> 00:28:12.130 that we don't do it great anyway we do have some 00:28:12.130 --> 00:28:15.589 when that's stripped away it you're right it 00:28:15.589 --> 00:28:18.089 does prolong that or makes it difficult so for 00:28:18.089 --> 00:28:20.670 me actually I would say it's only in the last 00:28:20.670 --> 00:28:23.210 two years like that happened 2020 it's only in 00:28:23.210 --> 00:28:25.410 the last two years through sort of a therapeutic 00:28:25.410 --> 00:28:28.609 process that I've really been able to go oh yeah 00:28:28.609 --> 00:28:32.029 like that was that was really hard and huge like 00:28:32.029 --> 00:28:34.390 it's not just like oh oh well it's okay it's 00:28:34.390 --> 00:28:36.619 just this thing that happened like no it It was 00:28:36.619 --> 00:28:38.980 really awful and it's okay for me to feel like 00:28:38.980 --> 00:28:41.440 it was really awful. Similarity to yourself, 00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:43.920 I guess, Lisa, like acknowledging it within yourself, 00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:48.000 like this is hard. Yeah. Do you know the first 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:51.640 time I went through breast cancer was I was diagnosed 00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:56.660 in January 2021. So it was in lockdown. And a 00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:59.299 lot of what you were saying about life is still 00:28:59.299 --> 00:29:00.779 going on for people. People are still living 00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:04.839 their lives and it's hard because you're in this 00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:08.000 bubble. You know, there were so many restrictions 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:11.160 and so much of the whole process, you know, that 00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:14.500 even down to finding out I had cancer, it was, 00:29:14.500 --> 00:29:17.880 you know, and the NHS went into this. We're going 00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.099 to do phone calls. There's no face to face anything. 00:29:20.970 --> 00:29:24.690 You know, I had the phone call on a Monday. I 00:29:24.690 --> 00:29:26.069 knew I was going to get a phone call on the Monday, 00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:27.730 but I didn't know what time. And all of a sudden, 00:29:27.809 --> 00:29:29.990 I live on my own, you know, getting that cancer 00:29:29.990 --> 00:29:32.130 diagnosis. You're having like this out -of -body 00:29:32.130 --> 00:29:34.710 experience and then having to wait two hours 00:29:34.710 --> 00:29:38.269 for my brother to arrive on train because he 00:29:38.269 --> 00:29:40.970 lives far away. And going through those, the 00:29:40.970 --> 00:29:43.990 process, I mean, being a patient in a hospital. 00:29:44.779 --> 00:29:47.619 during lockdown I've got to say if it brings 00:29:47.619 --> 00:29:50.579 you any comfort Sarah you know god love the NHS 00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:53.680 they they broke the distancing rules to give 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.819 me hugs at the the moments that I was going in 00:29:56.819 --> 00:29:59.119 for the first time I'd had a lumpectomy they 00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:01.119 were just holding me they were holding my hand 00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:03.359 they were giving me a hug I mean obviously they've 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:06.799 been isolating and and you know I was just I 00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:09.799 was in it was isolating but there was a lot of 00:30:09.799 --> 00:30:13.279 love being shown by those key workers to make 00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:15.259 sure that they were trying to do the best they 00:30:15.259 --> 00:30:18.359 could given the situation to give you that comfort. 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:20.579 But yeah, I completely relate to what you're 00:30:20.579 --> 00:30:23.359 saying that you need the things when you're going 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:26.259 through grief, you need to find the things that 00:30:26.259 --> 00:30:29.400 keep you grounded and link and anchor you back 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:32.819 to some part of yourself. And a lot of that is 00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:35.880 I need some form of control to get that back 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.440 and riding that bike with the wind kind of going 00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:42.599 through your hair as it kind of makes you feel 00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:46.019 alive and my version of that has always been 00:30:46.019 --> 00:30:48.980 weightlifting and the gym and as long as I can 00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:52.119 as long as I can get to the gym and throw some 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:55.400 heavy weights around it makes things it helps 00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:59.000 clear my head and counselling and therapy has 00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:03.420 been a huge part of my life for probably the 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:07.289 last six years and it's been game -changing for 00:31:07.289 --> 00:31:12.369 me but Anita you mentioned earlier around not 00:31:12.369 --> 00:31:14.849 knowing kind of what you needed but reflecting 00:31:14.849 --> 00:31:18.309 on your experiences now how how could you have 00:31:18.309 --> 00:31:20.910 been better supported whether that's you know 00:31:20.910 --> 00:31:24.109 in personal life with with with friends and loved 00:31:24.109 --> 00:31:26.970 ones or or in the workplace what what would you 00:31:26.970 --> 00:31:29.490 want to see or what would you have wanted to 00:31:29.490 --> 00:31:32.069 happen or what could have happened that that 00:31:32.069 --> 00:31:34.630 would have made you feel more supported I think 00:31:34.630 --> 00:31:36.970 what you've both shared I think unique situations 00:31:36.970 --> 00:31:39.329 there's a lot of trauma I think during the pandemic 00:31:39.329 --> 00:31:43.579 and I think the big aspect of what can help with 00:31:43.579 --> 00:31:45.579 that is if you have people around you, which 00:31:45.579 --> 00:31:47.500 you couldn't. And it makes me think about when 00:31:47.500 --> 00:31:50.619 I was going through infertility and I was going 00:31:50.619 --> 00:31:53.559 through rounds and rounds of IVF and then coming 00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:56.519 to the end of my journey, it was no one was sitting 00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:00.119 with me in my pain. No one was sitting or even 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:04.059 asking or even acknowledging. So I was kind of 00:32:04.059 --> 00:32:07.019 just there navigating life, being around people, 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:09.559 but I was sitting in the grief by myself. So 00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:13.910 it's, I think, what I needed. was people to just 00:32:13.910 --> 00:32:17.450 be an emotional with me and that would have allowed 00:32:17.450 --> 00:32:20.029 me to be an emotional and I've sat in therapy 00:32:20.029 --> 00:32:22.930 rooms and the therapist has sat and cried with 00:32:22.930 --> 00:32:25.809 me about the situation I came to the end of my 00:32:25.809 --> 00:32:28.549 journey of trying to become a parent unsuccessfully 00:32:28.549 --> 00:32:31.089 and I was there just then it was only this time 00:32:31.089 --> 00:32:34.009 last year this is all going on and it was just 00:32:34.009 --> 00:32:37.390 I felt so alone there was no one around there 00:32:37.390 --> 00:32:39.890 was no one asking me anything and I just yeah 00:32:39.890 --> 00:32:42.910 I think that's it just for any for whatever kind 00:32:42.910 --> 00:32:45.670 of grief someone is going through it's okay for 00:32:45.670 --> 00:32:48.369 you to show the emotion about someone's situation 00:32:48.369 --> 00:32:52.170 because it allows them to show it too so i think 00:32:52.170 --> 00:32:54.309 it's it's just you know get rid of the stiff 00:32:54.309 --> 00:32:57.170 upper lip forget about not upsetting the person 00:32:57.170 --> 00:33:01.470 just cry ugly cry all you need to just do it 00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:03.960 I think it comes back to what I think he said, 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.700 right. We all said right at the beginning, it's 00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:08.180 just bringing the humanity back into it. So Lisa, 00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:09.880 just coming back to what you were saying, the 00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:11.839 bit that resonated with me was that the nurses 00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:14.920 did hold your hand. They did hug you. It's just 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:17.539 being human, I think. And I know we spoke about 00:33:17.539 --> 00:33:20.079 empathy earlier on, but even for me, I'm thinking 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:22.779 sometimes leadership, you know, leaders and managers. 00:33:23.309 --> 00:33:25.069 Friends, whoever, keep thinking about this word 00:33:25.069 --> 00:33:27.170 empathy and, you know, we need to train our staff 00:33:27.170 --> 00:33:29.109 in empathy. We need to be more empathetic. And 00:33:29.109 --> 00:33:31.470 I just think we just need to be more human. I 00:33:31.470 --> 00:33:33.809 don't, you know, forget even empathy, just be 00:33:33.809 --> 00:33:36.430 a decent, caring human being. That's why I think 00:33:36.430 --> 00:33:39.170 all of us experience what we've experienced and 00:33:39.170 --> 00:33:41.250 experiencing. That's what we just need. We just 00:33:41.250 --> 00:33:43.589 need people to be human. Yeah. And I think for 00:33:43.589 --> 00:33:48.230 some, it's that stiff upper lip, right, is always 00:33:48.230 --> 00:33:51.150 insinuating, making yourself feel like it's weak 00:33:51.150 --> 00:33:53.900 if you show emotion. But actually having the 00:33:53.900 --> 00:33:56.680 strength to show the emotion and be open about 00:33:56.680 --> 00:33:59.099 it. I think it's really important that, look, 00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:01.119 like I keep saying, we all keep saying grief 00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:04.740 is individual and it's so dependent on your background 00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:08.000 and your history with grief and the type of grief 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:09.480 that you're going through, the type of loss that 00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:11.480 you're going through. But I think the more we 00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:15.380 can talk. out loud about things the more comfortable 00:34:15.380 --> 00:34:19.000 we get in ourselves with talking about it and 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:21.179 the more comfortable other people will become 00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:23.780 as well like it's it's just so important to have 00:34:23.780 --> 00:34:26.320 these difficult conversations out louder and 00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:29.260 counseling again god i wish everybody could have 00:34:29.260 --> 00:34:31.659 counseling because it would just it would just 00:34:31.659 --> 00:34:34.579 help so many people in so many different ways 00:34:34.579 --> 00:34:36.559 it would make it would people question you know 00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:39.019 why why am i avoiding these difficult conversations 00:34:39.019 --> 00:34:40.780 you know i've got someone crying in front of 00:34:40.780 --> 00:34:43.360 me and i'm saying well you know well yeah it's 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:45.739 Friday so that's good isn't it and then like 00:34:45.739 --> 00:34:48.789 walking off you know make people question that 00:34:48.789 --> 00:34:51.110 a little bit more because it's it's human instinct 00:34:51.110 --> 00:34:53.510 isn't it if somebody's crying surely it's human 00:34:53.510 --> 00:34:56.269 instinct to want to help and support them and 00:34:56.269 --> 00:34:59.090 and and just in the workplace you can't always 00:34:59.090 --> 00:35:01.110 it's not always appropriate to give a hug but 00:35:01.110 --> 00:35:03.610 it is that human to human connection it's not 00:35:03.610 --> 00:35:06.889 weak to show emotion and not not we and not to 00:35:06.889 --> 00:35:08.670 sit behind policies and procedures absolutely 00:35:08.670 --> 00:35:11.309 say but policy says this you only have five days 00:35:11.309 --> 00:35:13.949 you know compassionate leave or whatever it may 00:35:13.949 --> 00:35:15.769 well don't even get me started on compassionate 00:35:15.769 --> 00:35:19.329 leave yeah oh that is yeah i mean it's like you 00:35:19.329 --> 00:35:21.889 you have the empathy but you use the empathy 00:35:21.889 --> 00:35:24.610 to be compassionate compassionate is the action 00:35:24.610 --> 00:35:27.090 that sits behind or goes in front of empathy 00:35:27.090 --> 00:35:31.099 but i think it's I'm now a qualified counsellor 00:35:31.099 --> 00:35:34.920 and I sit in the room and people show emotion 00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:37.539 that they can't show in the outside world because 00:35:37.539 --> 00:35:39.659 it doesn't feel safe. It doesn't feel accepted. 00:35:39.659 --> 00:35:42.340 It doesn't feel normalised. So people are isolated 00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:44.679 in what they're feeling. So they bring it into 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:46.639 the therapy room. But what we really need to 00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:49.360 do is open it up so people feel safe to do it 00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:52.000 in any forum. They can be vulnerable. They can 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:54.920 feel like they can express themselves. And it's 00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:58.489 that going back to being human and how... Can 00:35:58.489 --> 00:36:00.809 we challenge some of the practices in the workplace? 00:36:00.989 --> 00:36:03.570 So for example, I've been working with an organization 00:36:03.570 --> 00:36:06.610 around grief. So I've delivered workshops, but 00:36:06.610 --> 00:36:09.329 then what I've done is had coaching pods. So 00:36:09.329 --> 00:36:11.670 where people have come in together and they just 00:36:11.670 --> 00:36:15.090 want a space to talk, to share, to open up, to 00:36:15.090 --> 00:36:18.030 feel their grief, to express their grief. And 00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:20.590 it makes such a difference. And the amount of 00:36:20.590 --> 00:36:23.369 people, I've done quite a few sessions like this 00:36:23.369 --> 00:36:26.369 and the comments and the number of people that 00:36:26.369 --> 00:36:28.769 are saying, I haven't been. supported. I don't 00:36:28.769 --> 00:36:31.809 feel supported. I feel isolated. And all sorts 00:36:31.809 --> 00:36:34.590 happen as a result of that. So it's so important 00:36:34.590 --> 00:36:36.789 to open up these conversations. And there are 00:36:36.789 --> 00:36:39.530 some great practices from organisations who are 00:36:39.530 --> 00:36:42.789 doing things around grief. They're having ERGs, 00:36:42.869 --> 00:36:45.590 they're having sessions. And when you open it 00:36:45.590 --> 00:36:48.550 up, you start to see the massive impact it is 00:36:48.550 --> 00:36:50.710 having on people's lives. And then it gives an 00:36:50.710 --> 00:36:52.949 opportunity to do something different to support 00:36:52.949 --> 00:36:55.369 them. What would be, Anita, out of interest and 00:36:55.369 --> 00:36:57.920 based on your experiences? as a qualified counsellor 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:00.000 supporting organisations, if you had to give 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.280 one piece of advice to a manager, for example, 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:05.000 who's navigating, whose team member's navigating 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:08.219 grief, what would that advice be? Ask them what 00:37:08.219 --> 00:37:11.320 they need. Don't assume. Don't judge. Don't try 00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:14.719 to fix. Don't give a solution. Ask the person. 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.480 So firstly, check in. How are you doing? How 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:20.219 are you really doing? I'm really interested to 00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:23.579 know how this is impacting you at work, outside 00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:26.440 of work. What do you need from me? What do you 00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:29.800 need from the team? How can we support you? And 00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:33.340 even just recognising that a big thing has happened 00:37:33.340 --> 00:37:35.059 in your life and we want to make sure you're 00:37:35.059 --> 00:37:38.260 not impacted and want to support you the best 00:37:38.260 --> 00:37:41.320 way that we can. So you tell me what you need. 00:37:41.460 --> 00:37:43.679 And if that person says, I don't know what I 00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:46.300 need, then say, OK, let's start with practical 00:37:46.300 --> 00:37:49.500 things like, OK, so are you able to be at work? 00:37:49.579 --> 00:37:51.920 If they say, yes, I want to be at work. OK, so 00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:54.920 let's look at your workload. How can we reduce 00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:57.750 it? how can we maybe delegate it out and make 00:37:57.750 --> 00:38:00.130 it manageable so that you're not you know trying 00:38:00.130 --> 00:38:02.969 to function as you was before because that is 00:38:02.969 --> 00:38:05.170 likely to be difficult obviously you don't want 00:38:05.170 --> 00:38:07.090 to be telling the person this is how you're going 00:38:07.090 --> 00:38:09.489 to be feeling but saying okay this this is what 00:38:09.489 --> 00:38:11.550 might so it's all in the language and the other 00:38:11.550 --> 00:38:13.150 thing and i think you've touched on it before 00:38:13.150 --> 00:38:16.909 is not to minimize it and no no at least or why 00:38:16.909 --> 00:38:19.530 don't you just because that does make the person 00:38:19.530 --> 00:38:21.670 feel like oh what i'm feeling is it's not valid 00:38:21.670 --> 00:38:23.909 it's i should be feeling better or whatever so 00:38:23.909 --> 00:38:26.320 it's avoid solution mode, ask the person what 00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:28.940 they need and also validate what they might be 00:38:28.940 --> 00:38:31.139 feeling. That's brilliant. That's great advice. 00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:33.300 And I really hope that people listening will 00:38:33.300 --> 00:38:35.420 take that on board to really bring that humanity 00:38:35.420 --> 00:38:37.320 back and really support individuals, whether 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.159 you're a manager, whether you're a friend, partner 00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:40.820 or somebody, you know, whoever. I think those 00:38:40.820 --> 00:38:42.639 things are really key and hopefully the stigma 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:45.239 of not talking about it starts the lesson. I 00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:47.079 think you're right, Lisa and Sarah, we do need 00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:48.920 to talk about it more. We should, not only at 00:38:48.920 --> 00:38:51.030 work, but outside of work. I think what struck 00:38:51.030 --> 00:38:53.869 me, Kavita, is it's difficult, right? But all 00:38:53.869 --> 00:38:55.670 of us have jumped at the chance to share our 00:38:55.670 --> 00:38:57.829 experiences and connect with each other. And 00:38:57.829 --> 00:39:00.889 we've all had really hard, horrible... awful 00:39:00.889 --> 00:39:02.789 things happen but we want to share with each 00:39:02.789 --> 00:39:05.110 other and we want to connect we want to feel 00:39:05.110 --> 00:39:07.469 safe amongst each other so there's a yearning 00:39:07.469 --> 00:39:10.349 for us to do that it's just to your point Anita 00:39:10.349 --> 00:39:13.630 how do we create those safe spaces outside of 00:39:13.630 --> 00:39:15.489 the therapy room because you know it's not always 00:39:15.489 --> 00:39:18.210 accessible to everybody I had great experiences 00:39:18.210 --> 00:39:21.269 but it's not always an option and I think as 00:39:21.269 --> 00:39:23.769 a leader of a team you can help to create some 00:39:23.769 --> 00:39:26.480 of that safe space for sure Well, yeah, there's 00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:29.300 also an opportunity for organisations to make 00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:32.179 sure that people have access to wellbeing support 00:39:32.179 --> 00:39:36.019 because I am in, I'm lucky I'm in a position 00:39:36.019 --> 00:39:38.360 that I can pay for counselling. I don't have 00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:40.679 to because we've got private medical insurance 00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:43.559 where I am. And that was the same for previous 00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:45.619 couple of places that I've been. But I know that 00:39:45.619 --> 00:39:48.059 there are a lot of situations where that mental 00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:50.480 health aspect side of things isn't, it's a bigger 00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:53.340 priority for organisations, but I'm not confident 00:39:53.340 --> 00:39:55.960 that every single organisation. has got the right 00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:58.460 tools in place to do that. And I think, you know, 00:39:58.460 --> 00:40:01.780 challenge it. If you can see that somebody, if 00:40:01.780 --> 00:40:04.059 it's you that's dealing with that, or if you 00:40:04.059 --> 00:40:06.340 can see like a member of staff or a friend or 00:40:06.340 --> 00:40:08.079 family member that's dealing with that stuff, 00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:10.239 you know, you can be that voice. You can put 00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:12.340 something forward and say, hey, look, you know 00:40:12.340 --> 00:40:14.360 what? I'm noticing this a lot. We don't have 00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:16.199 something here. What are we doing about that? 00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:18.780 You know, you do have a voice in that organisation 00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:22.539 to try and make changes. I know that's probably 00:40:22.539 --> 00:40:25.050 quite Disney -esque of me to... think that but 00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:28.659 I've never worked somewhere that there aren't 00:40:28.659 --> 00:40:31.559 ways that you can try and make a change. And 00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:33.920 I think equally that is also making sure people 00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:36.320 are aware of what you have available. So a lot 00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:39.300 of people might not understand EAP. Maybe they 00:40:39.300 --> 00:40:41.199 think it's not confidential. They don't know 00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:43.500 that they can get therapy through private medical. 00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:45.440 And I think it's always making sure people are 00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:47.280 aware of what's out there. And also the other 00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:49.039 services, because you're right, Lisa, a lot of 00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:51.280 people do not have that in their organisations. 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:54.599 Organisations' budgets are tight, etc. I understand 00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:57.800 that. I know we benefited from our local hospice. 00:40:57.820 --> 00:41:00.780 So my dad in particular, and he had started his 00:41:00.780 --> 00:41:02.900 counselling journey way before my mum had passed 00:41:02.900 --> 00:41:04.719 away. And that's because my mum kind of encouraged 00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:06.880 him, pushed him that way. And I think as an older 00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:08.900 man, doesn't really talk about things like that, 00:41:08.940 --> 00:41:10.880 but she was encouraging him to seek it out. But 00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:13.699 the local hospices, if you don't have that support 00:41:13.699 --> 00:41:16.579 within work or that opportunity to get counselling 00:41:16.579 --> 00:41:19.400 via your own organisation, your local hospices 00:41:19.400 --> 00:41:22.539 are absolutely amazing. They really, really are. 00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:25.239 And they really will provide that. ongoing support. 00:41:25.670 --> 00:41:27.469 and counselling for individuals as well. But 00:41:27.469 --> 00:41:29.130 I think you're right. I think it's what have 00:41:29.130 --> 00:41:31.530 we got in an organisation or workplace, but actually 00:41:31.530 --> 00:41:33.489 what's on my doorstep? What's in my community 00:41:33.489 --> 00:41:36.750 as well? Where can I go to? I think people don't 00:41:36.750 --> 00:41:38.690 reach out enough to hospices who provide that 00:41:38.690 --> 00:41:41.110 service. We think we have to go via our GP and 00:41:41.110 --> 00:41:42.750 then we can't get an appointment and, you know, 00:41:42.750 --> 00:41:45.489 get on a referral list, etc. Yeah, so really, 00:41:45.590 --> 00:41:47.550 maybe that's the same thing organisations can 00:41:47.550 --> 00:41:49.510 do to look in their local areas and say, OK, 00:41:49.590 --> 00:41:52.829 we can't provide X, Y, Z, but we can signpost 00:41:52.829 --> 00:41:55.309 you to other services that we work with. closely 00:41:55.309 --> 00:41:57.289 with or recommend i'm just going to say cruise 00:41:57.289 --> 00:41:59.909 is the largest bereavement charity they have 00:41:59.909 --> 00:42:02.090 support groups and services and there's lots 00:42:02.090 --> 00:42:04.889 of other smaller charities who offer more specialized 00:42:04.889 --> 00:42:07.670 for example for children so it's always worth 00:42:07.670 --> 00:42:10.469 looking online for charities that can offer support 00:42:10.469 --> 00:42:14.429 i just i just wanted to caveat that by by saying 00:42:14.429 --> 00:42:18.400 that if you are a leader and you're wanting to 00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:21.099 help your member of staff, I would caveat by 00:42:21.099 --> 00:42:23.639 just being mindful about how much information 00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:26.119 you share, because especially when you're going 00:42:26.119 --> 00:42:28.199 through any kind of grief, is that everything 00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:31.760 is hugely overwhelming. And sometimes just having 00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:35.659 to read even just an A4 piece of text, it feels 00:42:35.659 --> 00:42:38.239 impossible. So sometimes it's getting the balance 00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:40.400 right and signposting rather than going, you're 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:42.340 going through a really tough time. Here's 20 00:42:42.340 --> 00:42:45.340 attachments in an email, signposting this, this, 00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:48.280 this, this and this. You don't need that. You 00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:50.719 need things to be very clear, very simple. You're 00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:53.219 on autopilot. You need someone else sometimes 00:42:53.219 --> 00:42:55.860 to do the thinking for you. Gosh, didn't think 00:42:55.860 --> 00:42:57.980 it would be this emotional, to be honest. Yeah. 00:42:58.019 --> 00:43:01.500 Bringing it all up. I suppose it just shows me 00:43:01.500 --> 00:43:03.500 that, yeah, actually, it's difficult for a piece 00:43:03.500 --> 00:43:05.559 to talk about. It really is. But this conversation 00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.460 is one of conversations that could lead to many 00:43:08.460 --> 00:43:10.719 others. And people listening, it might spark 00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.659 something in them to talk more. I hope so. I 00:43:13.659 --> 00:43:17.409 would like to ask everyone. want a question what's 00:43:17.409 --> 00:43:20.449 i'll start with anita what's the what's the thing 00:43:20.449 --> 00:43:22.769 you're most proud of yourself as you've have 00:43:22.769 --> 00:43:25.190 moved through grief what's the thing that you've 00:43:25.190 --> 00:43:27.900 learned most about yourself what's the thing 00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:29.980 that you're proud most of yourself for I think 00:43:29.980 --> 00:43:33.199 it's the recognizing that grief doesn't have 00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:36.679 an end point and allowing myself to feel and 00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:39.820 have compassion for myself when grief emerges 00:43:39.820 --> 00:43:42.420 so for example for my mum when it's her birthday 00:43:42.420 --> 00:43:44.519 when it's mother's day when it's you know her 00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:47.599 anniversary it's knowing that actually it's okay 00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:50.920 I am going to feel upset and it's normal and 00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:53.460 there's this great video I came across on BBC 00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:55.980 which And it talked about grief and there was 00:43:55.980 --> 00:43:58.960 just a visual of, it depicts how grief forms 00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:00.699 part of your life and your life grows around 00:44:00.699 --> 00:44:03.199 it. And that for me was a turning point that 00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:05.679 actually, yeah, grief is part of me now and it's 00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:08.099 how I navigate and move forward. I think that's 00:44:08.099 --> 00:44:10.460 it for me. Kavita, how about yourself? Mine's 00:44:10.460 --> 00:44:11.920 probably slightly different to that. I think 00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:15.900 mine, what I'm probably most proud of, I suppose, 00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:18.480 is actually I'm a lot stronger than I thought 00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:20.739 I was, a lot stronger than I thought I was. And 00:44:20.739 --> 00:44:23.380 I think I now look back at my life and my upbringing. 00:44:23.690 --> 00:44:26.469 And my mum's such a big influencer on that, thinking 00:44:26.469 --> 00:44:29.469 it all kind of makes sense. It almost feels like 00:44:29.469 --> 00:44:32.170 she was preparing us all for that moment. Her 00:44:32.170 --> 00:44:34.050 health has never been good. You know, it never 00:44:34.050 --> 00:44:36.010 was good. But it almost feels like everything 00:44:36.010 --> 00:44:39.050 that how she raised us. Now I think, God, that's, 00:44:39.050 --> 00:44:40.909 you know, that's made us actually more resilient. 00:44:41.070 --> 00:44:43.230 And that's why we're so close as a family. And 00:44:43.230 --> 00:44:45.250 it almost feels like she's preparing us for that 00:44:45.250 --> 00:44:47.329 moment. It's really bizarre. But, you know, X 00:44:47.329 --> 00:44:49.210 amount of years later. But yeah, so I think I'm 00:44:49.210 --> 00:44:50.670 always proud of that. And I think the biggest 00:44:50.670 --> 00:44:53.110 thing I've learned is you do need people. around 00:44:53.110 --> 00:44:55.309 you even though you think you don't you absolutely 00:44:55.309 --> 00:44:57.969 do even if it's just to sit there in silence 00:44:57.969 --> 00:45:00.510 even if it is just to suddenly have you know 00:45:00.510 --> 00:45:02.989 burst into fits of laughter with or sit there 00:45:02.989 --> 00:45:04.710 I remember we were sitting with my mum's brother 00:45:04.710 --> 00:45:07.769 until about 11 o 'clock midnight one of the days 00:45:07.769 --> 00:45:09.650 and he was telling us all the same some of these 00:45:09.650 --> 00:45:11.710 childhood stories he had bought loads of photo 00:45:11.710 --> 00:45:15.190 albums etc and actually it was just really nice 00:45:15.190 --> 00:45:17.269 and I think I've also learned that in grief you 00:45:17.269 --> 00:45:20.119 there are some nice moments it's not It's not 00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:21.900 what you see on Hollywood where somebody's passed 00:45:21.900 --> 00:45:23.639 away and they'll be screaming and shouting and 00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:26.440 crying and, you know, et cetera. That's what 00:45:26.440 --> 00:45:28.920 blew me away that I expected me to be like that. 00:45:29.230 --> 00:45:30.809 But I wasn't. It was very different. What about 00:45:30.809 --> 00:45:33.389 you, Sarah? I think for me, I'm probably proud 00:45:33.389 --> 00:45:35.789 of the perspective that it's given me. I think 00:45:35.789 --> 00:45:38.809 it's allowed me to really focus on what's important 00:45:38.809 --> 00:45:41.269 to me and actually what is just noise and that 00:45:41.269 --> 00:45:44.829 I will just not be a part of or don't want to 00:45:44.829 --> 00:45:46.909 be a part of anymore. I think it was interesting. 00:45:46.989 --> 00:45:48.909 It actually really kick -started a career change 00:45:48.909 --> 00:45:51.929 for me. So as horrendous as it was, I'll always 00:45:51.929 --> 00:45:54.750 be really grateful as well to that moment for 00:45:54.750 --> 00:45:58.130 giving me the sort of oomph to go and do something. 00:45:58.510 --> 00:46:00.250 that's something I've heard a lot about around 00:46:00.250 --> 00:46:02.670 like post -traumatic growth and you know it's 00:46:02.670 --> 00:46:05.909 hard it's not that toxic positivity which I absolutely 00:46:05.909 --> 00:46:08.929 despise but for me something good has come from 00:46:08.929 --> 00:46:11.190 something awful and I can recognize that those 00:46:11.190 --> 00:46:13.329 two things can exist at the same time it can 00:46:13.329 --> 00:46:15.769 still be awful and also these really great things 00:46:15.769 --> 00:46:18.030 happens and that's great too and I think allowing 00:46:18.030 --> 00:46:21.929 those two sort of juxtapositions to to exist 00:46:21.929 --> 00:46:24.150 at the same time for me like I'm proud of being 00:46:24.150 --> 00:46:26.690 able to hold that and hold the messiness of it 00:46:26.690 --> 00:46:29.019 as well at the same time how about you lisa i 00:46:29.019 --> 00:46:31.599 have learned that i am stronger than i think 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:34.519 i am like physically tough as well as mentally 00:46:34.519 --> 00:46:37.699 it's hard everything's been really really bloody 00:46:37.699 --> 00:46:40.460 hard but i've surprised myself and the creative 00:46:40.460 --> 00:46:42.480 ways i tell you that i was trying to get out 00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:44.739 of that hospital bed and shuffling down like 00:46:44.739 --> 00:46:46.639 a sausage and not being able to bend my hips 00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:48.719 and just kind of rolling with it and waddling 00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:51.889 around with my drains yeah I've learned that 00:46:51.889 --> 00:46:55.489 I'm adaptive. Let's just put it that way. I'm 00:46:55.489 --> 00:46:59.190 proudest now that as much as I've had to go through 00:46:59.190 --> 00:47:03.070 all of that, I am proud that this week was my 00:47:03.070 --> 00:47:05.250 first week volunteering for the breast reconstruction 00:47:05.250 --> 00:47:08.829 team where I met other women that were at the 00:47:08.829 --> 00:47:10.849 beginning of their breast reconstruction and 00:47:10.849 --> 00:47:13.329 mastectomy journey. And I'm proud that I've been 00:47:13.329 --> 00:47:16.510 a part of their story that's taken some of that 00:47:16.510 --> 00:47:19.670 fear and anxiety away. You know, I'm really proud 00:47:19.670 --> 00:47:22.010 that I get to help other people through that 00:47:22.010 --> 00:47:24.789 and get them to see that it's it's horrible. 00:47:24.949 --> 00:47:27.630 But you know what? Going to be OK. They do a 00:47:27.630 --> 00:47:30.210 fantastic job at the reconstruction place as 00:47:30.210 --> 00:47:33.690 well. So, yeah, I'm proud that I get to be part 00:47:33.690 --> 00:47:36.889 of their journey and be there to help them through 00:47:36.889 --> 00:47:39.190 through those stages. Thank you all so much. 00:47:39.489 --> 00:47:43.010 Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. Connection. 00:47:43.030 --> 00:47:45.550 Yeah. Seems to be a key theme. Right. Thank you. 00:47:45.590 --> 00:47:47.130 Thank you, everyone. I think it's been great 00:47:47.130 --> 00:47:49.699 to talk about. it and i hope we've made people 00:47:49.699 --> 00:47:52.340 just stop and listen and think and maybe do differently 00:47:52.340 --> 00:47:59.119 what an amazingly challenging episode we have 00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:01.380 to admit that while listening we did shed a tear 00:48:01.380 --> 00:48:04.579 or two navigating grief is a complex journey 00:48:04.579 --> 00:48:08.219 that requires understanding compassion and open 00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:10.900 communication in the workplace as well as with 00:48:10.900 --> 00:48:14.539 family and friends A huge thank you to Kavita, 00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:17.300 Anita, Lisa and Sarah -Jane for sharing their 00:48:17.300 --> 00:48:20.639 very personal experiences so generously. You'll 00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:22.780 find their details and all the links mentioned 00:48:22.780 --> 00:48:26.039 in the show notes. Please do remember to like 00:48:26.039 --> 00:48:27.900 and subscribe to the podcast on your podcast 00:48:27.900 --> 00:48:31.019 player. It does make a real difference in helping 00:48:31.019 --> 00:48:35.780 people find and recommend us. We're also actively 00:48:35.780 --> 00:48:38.440 looking for guests to be on the podcast. If you're 00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:41.159 interested, then please do get in touch via email 00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:46.159 to hello at lan .com. We're back in a couple 00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:48.900 of weeks, and next time it's the allyship one. 00:48:49.619 --> 00:48:52.699 As always, thanks for listening, and we'll see 00:48:52.699 --> 00:48:53.300 you again soon.