WEBVTT 00:00:11.630 --> 00:00:14.830 Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the 00:00:14.830 --> 00:00:16.690 Return to Work one of the Women Talking About 00:00:16.690 --> 00:00:20.230 Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. First of 00:00:20.230 --> 00:00:22.789 all, I have a cold and this is why the voice 00:00:22.789 --> 00:00:26.149 is even deeper than usual. Normal service will 00:00:26.149 --> 00:00:30.250 be resumed quickly, I hope. Returning to work 00:00:30.250 --> 00:00:32.130 after career break can be a daunting challenge, 00:00:32.369 --> 00:00:34.609 particularly for women who often juggle numerous 00:00:34.609 --> 00:00:37.950 responsibilities at home. To discuss this further, 00:00:38.049 --> 00:00:41.130 we have two fantastic guests who talk about how 00:00:41.130 --> 00:00:43.869 women can successfully reintegrate into the workforce. 00:00:44.310 --> 00:00:47.469 Our first guest is Claire Maidley. Claire is 00:00:47.469 --> 00:00:49.890 a technology trainer and learning specialist 00:00:49.890 --> 00:00:52.969 with her lived experience of returning to work 00:00:52.969 --> 00:00:55.969 after career transitions. She knows firsthand 00:00:55.969 --> 00:00:59.149 what it's like to navigate confidence dips, identity 00:00:59.149 --> 00:01:01.670 shifts, and the practical realities of stepping 00:01:01.670 --> 00:01:04.930 back into a role. Being a guest on this podcast, 00:01:05.290 --> 00:01:07.689 Claire wanted to help people reconnect with their 00:01:07.689 --> 00:01:10.609 skills, making the return to work journey feel 00:01:10.609 --> 00:01:15.129 more supported and genuinely human. Our second 00:01:15.129 --> 00:01:18.030 guest is Joe Edgar. Joe is a freelance executive 00:01:18.030 --> 00:01:21.030 coach and leadership trainer focusing on behavioral 00:01:21.030 --> 00:01:23.750 change with over 20 years experience in learning 00:01:23.750 --> 00:01:26.359 and development. Her passion lies in coaching 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:28.780 women who are returning to the workplace after 00:01:28.780 --> 00:01:31.260 a career break, whether due to maternity leave, 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:34.739 raising a family, caring responsibilities, redundancy, 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:37.140 or life taking them into a different direction. 00:01:38.620 --> 00:01:41.859 Recorded in January 2026, this is Women Talking 00:01:41.859 --> 00:01:45.519 About Learning. This is Claire and Jo talking 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:50.379 about returning to work. Hi Jo, nice to have 00:01:50.379 --> 00:01:54.599 you here. What has brought you into the conversation 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:58.420 today about returning to work? What's your personal 00:01:58.420 --> 00:02:02.340 experience? Hi Claire, lovely to see you. Yeah, 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:05.000 it's a subject matter that I'm really interested 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:07.780 in. I've had a couple of return to works during 00:02:07.780 --> 00:02:12.039 my time, my working career. One was after maternity 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:14.780 leave for my first daughter and then I had... 00:02:15.069 --> 00:02:17.210 Two other daughters took an eight year career 00:02:17.210 --> 00:02:20.810 gap. So it's something I'm passionate about. 00:02:20.909 --> 00:02:22.750 And I know that some of the difficulties that 00:02:22.750 --> 00:02:24.889 women face when they've taken a career break 00:02:24.889 --> 00:02:26.729 and then go back to the working environment. 00:02:27.710 --> 00:02:31.069 And what made you choose this subject as well? 00:02:32.189 --> 00:02:35.310 Yeah, very similar experiences as yourself, Jo. 00:02:35.610 --> 00:02:39.150 Many different returns to work. And I feel that 00:02:39.150 --> 00:02:44.439 it does very much impact women especially. Just 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:48.219 feeling the other side now of that big 5 -0 and 00:02:48.219 --> 00:02:50.979 many, I think it's about four or five different 00:02:50.979 --> 00:02:56.020 returns to work that what I experienced and if 00:02:56.020 --> 00:02:59.900 it can help anyone else on their path, I'm all 00:02:59.900 --> 00:03:03.080 for it. Yeah, definitely. If it could just help 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:04.919 one person, you feel like you've made a really 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:09.889 good impact. So what do you, what? What's the 00:03:09.889 --> 00:03:12.689 main struggles, do you think, that women in particular 00:03:12.689 --> 00:03:15.949 face when they return? I think it does affect 00:03:15.949 --> 00:03:19.009 women a lot more as parents. I think because 00:03:19.009 --> 00:03:21.449 they're normally the sole sort of care provider. 00:03:21.650 --> 00:03:25.349 I think confidence through my coaching work and 00:03:25.349 --> 00:03:27.979 the women that I've spoken to. Confidence seems 00:03:27.979 --> 00:03:30.659 to be the really big one. Imposter syndrome, 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:32.719 thinking though I've been out the workplace, 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:35.740 am I good enough? Can I be able to do the things 00:03:35.740 --> 00:03:37.599 that I used to do, especially if women are in 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:39.860 a more senior position? They're worried about 00:03:39.860 --> 00:03:42.639 those lack of skills. I think technology again 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:46.139 is a big one. People just assume that technology's 00:03:46.139 --> 00:03:49.050 moved on so much, whereas in fact... In fact, 00:03:49.090 --> 00:03:52.750 most offices use Microsoft and Word and PowerPoint 00:03:52.750 --> 00:03:54.870 and Excel, and they're just as much the same 00:03:54.870 --> 00:03:58.169 as they were 10, 15 years ago. I mean, obviously, 00:03:58.250 --> 00:04:01.030 AI is a big, scary sounding word. If you've been 00:04:01.030 --> 00:04:03.569 out the workplace for a while, get your head 00:04:03.569 --> 00:04:06.789 around that. In fact, these things aren't making 00:04:06.789 --> 00:04:08.770 that much of a big difference as they would have 00:04:08.770 --> 00:04:12.830 done when women were working there before. I 00:04:12.830 --> 00:04:15.370 couldn't agree more. And I have firsthand experience 00:04:15.370 --> 00:04:19.610 of that, you know, being in tech training and 00:04:19.610 --> 00:04:22.910 sort of L &D space, you know, had a career break. 00:04:23.029 --> 00:04:26.709 Well, I did a mixture in between. Having a career 00:04:26.709 --> 00:04:31.470 break and out of IT training particularly had 00:04:31.470 --> 00:04:35.430 that massive fear. And as you said, funnily enough, 00:04:35.449 --> 00:04:40.350 you go back and not. that much has changed. Yes, 00:04:40.490 --> 00:04:43.470 we are still using Microsoft Office. Yes, the 00:04:43.470 --> 00:04:46.329 interfaces might have changed slightly. Yes, 00:04:46.370 --> 00:04:48.589 some other processes might have come in, but 00:04:48.589 --> 00:04:51.240 there I suppose it is just about. perhaps upskilling 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:54.220 or building that confidence but we put that fear 00:04:54.220 --> 00:04:56.300 don't we in place about the imposter syndrome 00:04:56.300 --> 00:04:59.500 that you suggested exactly we all have it and 00:04:59.500 --> 00:05:02.240 think that everything is much bigger and scarier 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:05.420 than it actually really is and that is one first 00:05:05.420 --> 00:05:07.800 -hand experience I have had and I've had that 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:10.740 fairly recently I turn returned back to the you 00:05:10.740 --> 00:05:14.000 know IT training tech training world yeah I'm 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:17.779 only the past few years and of course I'm sitting 00:05:17.779 --> 00:05:21.399 there thinking AI oh i don't know anything and 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:23.980 we've got to really think actually we use a lot 00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:27.759 of ai in so many things that we do in day -to 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:29.500 -day life and probably don't even realize that 00:05:29.500 --> 00:05:33.079 we do that so there is it is only just a piece 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:36.519 of software and we can all learn it and it is 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:39.420 just that part that you know that taking away 00:05:39.420 --> 00:05:42.439 the fear factor and you know there's so many 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:44.240 things i suppose we can do to help ourselves 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:47.639 as well yeah and you know what what helped What 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.779 helped you perhaps build that sort of self -confidence 00:05:50.779 --> 00:05:54.589 up a little bit or, you know? Take that fear 00:05:54.589 --> 00:05:57.050 factor down a level or two. Yeah, I think it's 00:05:57.050 --> 00:05:59.310 about breaking it down because sometimes it feels 00:05:59.310 --> 00:06:01.389 like a mountain, doesn't it, in front of you. 00:06:01.709 --> 00:06:03.970 Whereas you've just got to take it step by step 00:06:03.970 --> 00:06:06.750 and break it down into small bits. So I think 00:06:06.750 --> 00:06:09.029 if you've spent a long time out of the workplace 00:06:09.029 --> 00:06:11.550 and maybe because you've had children and you've 00:06:11.550 --> 00:06:14.050 decided to wait until they start school or they're 00:06:14.050 --> 00:06:16.170 a bit older. Some of the things that I did when 00:06:16.170 --> 00:06:19.069 I took my eight year career break was I helped 00:06:19.069 --> 00:06:21.949 out. I did some voluntary work. So I did some 00:06:21.949 --> 00:06:24.279 work around the school. I did some fundraising 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:28.319 for guide dogs. I also joined the school parents 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:32.180 association to the PTA. And I worked as a secretary 00:06:32.180 --> 00:06:34.100 as a PTA for a couple of years. And that just 00:06:34.100 --> 00:06:36.720 helped build up my confidence. You can do things 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:39.360 like maybe be a school governor, maybe think 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:41.560 about your network as well around the school. 00:06:42.350 --> 00:06:45.610 whatever area you're in um other parents can 00:06:45.610 --> 00:06:49.050 they help support you maybe have chats with previous 00:06:49.050 --> 00:06:51.670 work colleagues to find out what the working 00:06:51.670 --> 00:06:54.029 environment's like you know how it is at that 00:06:54.029 --> 00:06:56.769 time and think about sort of is there a new network 00:06:56.769 --> 00:06:59.310 that you can get involved in so all these things 00:06:59.310 --> 00:07:01.730 i just think help just build just your confidence 00:07:01.730 --> 00:07:04.750 and think about what transferable skills have 00:07:04.750 --> 00:07:06.990 you developed during that time while you've been 00:07:06.990 --> 00:07:09.610 off work i mean you know as parents we have we're 00:07:09.610 --> 00:07:11.910 great organizational skills we have to sort of 00:07:11.910 --> 00:07:13.970 juggle things that we need to get done getting 00:07:13.970 --> 00:07:16.259 school Children off to school, maybe getting 00:07:16.259 --> 00:07:18.779 them to clubs and stuff. Household budgets, we're 00:07:18.779 --> 00:07:21.100 budgeting monies. That's not hugely different 00:07:21.100 --> 00:07:23.860 to managing a budget in the workplace. So it's 00:07:23.860 --> 00:07:27.519 all these skills, negotiation. There's lots of 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.120 different areas that you develop outside of the 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:32.000 workplace that you can bring into the workplace. 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:34.920 And I think it's also looking at maybe your local 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:37.439 college. So things like IT skills, if you are 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:39.860 worried about things have moved on, maybe doing 00:07:39.860 --> 00:07:42.819 a refresher course. There's lots of adult educational. 00:07:44.009 --> 00:07:46.149 courses that you could get involved and attend 00:07:46.149 --> 00:07:49.129 just to boost those skills and funnily enough 00:07:49.129 --> 00:07:53.410 that's exactly what I did years ago after the 00:07:53.410 --> 00:07:58.050 birth of my daughter and I didn't think I didn't 00:07:58.050 --> 00:08:00.149 think at the time that I would lose my confidence 00:08:00.149 --> 00:08:05.110 and I took a couple of year I took a couple of 00:08:05.110 --> 00:08:08.399 year gap and I did before I started applying 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:10.879 for these jobs again. I've noticed there was 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:13.740 a dip in my confidence. So I did attend my local 00:08:13.740 --> 00:08:18.180 college and I attended a preparing to teach in 00:08:18.180 --> 00:08:21.699 the lifelong learning sector. And it was a few 00:08:21.699 --> 00:08:24.100 months course that I did on a Saturday morning. 00:08:24.300 --> 00:08:26.360 And actually, it was fabulous because I had a 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:29.180 couple of hour break as well. You know, my daughter 00:08:29.180 --> 00:08:32.240 was very young at that stage. So it was lovely. 00:08:32.379 --> 00:08:35.120 And it filled up my confidence. And I remember 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:39.080 that was a... link into my first role back after 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:42.080 maternity that really did help so it's probably 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:44.500 not just the content you were covering it was 00:08:44.500 --> 00:08:46.960 just also having to walk into a room with other 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:49.019 people that you didn't know and get yourself 00:08:49.019 --> 00:08:51.759 there and ready that probably helped you with 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:54.059 your confidence as much as learning that topic 00:08:54.059 --> 00:08:59.019 area as well yeah it we confirmed that I had 00:08:59.019 --> 00:09:02.610 those skills that I then thought I didn't. And 00:09:02.610 --> 00:09:06.330 that really did help steer me in the right directions. 00:09:06.649 --> 00:09:10.529 And the other thing that I often thought and 00:09:10.529 --> 00:09:15.529 felt was that I couldn't ask for help. I was 00:09:15.529 --> 00:09:19.340 very much, you know... isolated and I think any 00:09:19.340 --> 00:09:23.779 kind of gap in work you do feel isolated oh I 00:09:23.779 --> 00:09:25.539 don't want to put on people everyone else is 00:09:25.539 --> 00:09:29.200 busy how can you know and actually learning slightly 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:33.419 the people that perhaps can help or do not mind 00:09:33.419 --> 00:09:36.950 or offering help take them up on it because they're 00:09:36.950 --> 00:09:39.289 that that's what they do that's what they want 00:09:39.289 --> 00:09:42.789 to do um but then support from friends family 00:09:42.789 --> 00:09:47.029 or even your network that you're in and I didn't 00:09:47.029 --> 00:09:50.049 do enough of that especially early on in my career 00:09:50.049 --> 00:09:53.370 but now you you know you you know the people 00:09:53.370 --> 00:09:56.450 to perhaps go and speak again to or you know 00:09:56.450 --> 00:09:59.289 bear me in mind or could you have a quick look 00:09:59.289 --> 00:10:03.889 over my cv yeah What did you do? You know, little 00:10:03.889 --> 00:10:07.789 tricks and where all of that isolation comes 00:10:07.789 --> 00:10:11.000 in and then. part of your well -being as well 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:13.440 you know and I think it was very important isn't 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.320 it to keep check on ourselves and one thing that 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:19.220 I know for myself that's always made a difference 00:10:19.220 --> 00:10:23.039 in every return to work was setting aside like 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:26.879 a worry time of half an hour I would put my timer 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:29.919 on and I would look and I'd write everything 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:32.679 down that I was worried about that day and I 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:35.500 would basically just park it on a note on my 00:10:35.500 --> 00:10:37.840 phone and then I'd sit there for the half an 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:40.659 hour and then worry about it and when it stopped 00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:43.720 the procrastination and so that you know the 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:46.059 little things I think can make a big difference 00:10:46.059 --> 00:10:48.580 sometimes yeah I totally agree with you there 00:10:48.580 --> 00:10:51.340 one thing that I'm i do quite often is if i'm 00:10:51.340 --> 00:10:53.799 starting to feel that overwhelm with everything 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:57.100 sort of filling up and a bit too much or i don't 00:10:57.100 --> 00:10:59.120 know which way to go next is i get a flip chart 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:01.240 paper and loads of different color pens and i 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:04.059 just it's almost that brain dump it's just offloading 00:11:04.059 --> 00:11:05.820 everything and then you can start thinking about 00:11:05.820 --> 00:11:08.940 okay where do i go with this i think it's really 00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:11.500 important and i think something that we would 00:11:11.500 --> 00:11:13.559 generally do is we're not good at asking for 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.419 help or we just assume that everyone's too busy 00:11:16.419 --> 00:11:18.740 or everyone else is just caught up in their own 00:11:18.740 --> 00:11:20.879 lives. And I think it's really important, as 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:23.299 you said, to just pause sometimes and just think, 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:25.820 okay, who can help me? And to just sort of stop 00:11:25.820 --> 00:11:28.980 and say, you know, I'm struggling a bit or it's 00:11:28.980 --> 00:11:31.740 okay not to be okay 100 % of the time and we 00:11:31.740 --> 00:11:33.759 just assume everybody else has got it all together, 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:35.820 but they probably haven't. They're just like 00:11:35.820 --> 00:11:38.360 us, struggling. So I think it's great sometimes 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:40.940 just to sort of say to somebody, know if you've 00:11:40.940 --> 00:11:42.820 got time for a coffee or something i'd like to 00:11:42.820 --> 00:11:45.100 just pick your brains about You know, you work 00:11:45.100 --> 00:11:47.139 in this industry. What was it like for you going 00:11:47.139 --> 00:11:49.580 back to work? And I think also just offering 00:11:49.580 --> 00:11:51.679 support to each other, because one of the things 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:54.120 that when I first went back after I'd had my 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:56.559 first daughter, I was initially a single mum 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:58.820 when she went back, when I went back to work 00:11:58.820 --> 00:12:00.659 and she went to nursery and then later school, 00:12:00.940 --> 00:12:03.019 was we used to support each other covering school 00:12:03.019 --> 00:12:06.120 holidays. So I would have a day off, look after 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:08.120 my daughter and a couple of friends' children, 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:10.639 take them out for the day, entertain them. Then 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:12.940 those parents would take a day off and look after 00:12:12.940 --> 00:12:15.059 my daughter. and maybe a couple of other people's 00:12:15.059 --> 00:12:17.320 children. And you just do that just to help cover, 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:19.539 just support each other and just try and take 00:12:19.539 --> 00:12:21.820 the pressure off. Yeah, I think, you know, again, 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:25.399 finding the people in the same ilk as yourself 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:29.519 that can really help. I remember, again, I utilised, 00:12:29.539 --> 00:12:31.559 you know, my friends, my mum friends that would 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:33.539 perhaps pick up my daughter from school that 00:12:33.539 --> 00:12:38.240 day that I was working. And it is the organisational 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:40.899 skills that come around, especially, you know, 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:45.600 motherhood is remarkable. And we are so flexible 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:49.179 and adaptable. And I feel that perhaps our skills 00:12:49.179 --> 00:12:52.460 are being overlooked in the workplace. And, you 00:12:52.460 --> 00:12:55.019 know, when we when we sit there and think about 00:12:55.019 --> 00:12:58.820 actually what we do as project management in 00:12:58.820 --> 00:13:03.159 the world, those skills are so transferable to 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:07.720 the workplace. And, you know, I also feel that, 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.620 you know, there's been a lot of, you know, perhaps 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:13.830 not just. Mum's returning to work, but then when 00:13:13.830 --> 00:13:16.909 we have, maybe we've taken some time for, you 00:13:16.909 --> 00:13:20.990 know, caregiving or redundancies come in, there's 00:13:20.990 --> 00:13:24.789 so many different areas of why we might return 00:13:24.789 --> 00:13:29.299 to work. And perhaps just utilising... that we 00:13:29.299 --> 00:13:31.080 might take a different slightly different path 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:34.460 a lot more people now are going into you know 00:13:34.460 --> 00:13:37.840 freelancing or taking those options and I found 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:42.039 the flexible option for myself was self -employment 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:45.740 for a little while yeah and I didn't think that 00:13:45.740 --> 00:13:48.480 those skills would be transferable at the time 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.059 you don't realize perhaps what you're what you 00:13:51.059 --> 00:13:53.759 are doing and you know thinking about sort of 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.940 the post pandemic as well the shift of what's 00:13:56.940 --> 00:14:00.600 happened around We did very much well work from 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:02.580 home for quite a long time. And look how well 00:14:02.580 --> 00:14:04.940 everyone did. Now the return to work is huge. 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.620 I don't know about your experience and what you've 00:14:07.620 --> 00:14:11.259 heard, but many firms are asking that people 00:14:11.259 --> 00:14:14.500 go into the office many more days than what they're 00:14:14.500 --> 00:14:17.519 used to. And so, you know, I mean, there's a 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:19.840 common theme, isn't it? You know, three days 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:22.179 in the office, two from home, if you're lucky. 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.139 Or it is actually more of a push to return to 00:14:25.139 --> 00:14:28.440 that office environment. I think that that is 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.840 a back step, perhaps in the wrong way. And it 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:34.759 certainly doesn't support, you know, women, especially 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:37.139 when they have younger children. They're missing 00:14:37.139 --> 00:14:39.039 a trick as far as I'm concerned. What's your 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:41.679 thoughts? Yeah, totally agree with you. I think, 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:45.019 as you say, when we were in pandemic, it was 00:14:45.019 --> 00:14:47.120 solely working from home. And then we went to 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:49.860 that majority of days working from home. If you're 00:14:49.860 --> 00:14:51.620 in industries, obviously, if you're in something 00:14:51.620 --> 00:14:53.980 like hospitality and retail, you had to 100 % 00:14:53.980 --> 00:14:56.460 be there. But otherwise, you were maybe working. 00:14:56.490 --> 00:14:58.690 in more days from home than in the office. And 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:01.009 now there is that total shift where it might 00:15:01.009 --> 00:15:04.049 be full time back in the office or maybe only 00:15:04.049 --> 00:15:06.429 one day from home. It's really shifted round. 00:15:06.690 --> 00:15:09.509 And I think that's the thing is it makes it really 00:15:09.509 --> 00:15:12.850 limited for parents. doing that juggle of childcare. 00:15:13.269 --> 00:15:15.409 If you've got, you're working from home, you 00:15:15.409 --> 00:15:17.389 haven't got that time you'd normally spend on 00:15:17.389 --> 00:15:19.210 a commute, which might be half an hour to an 00:15:19.210 --> 00:15:21.690 hour. So you can gain that in a day working. 00:15:22.070 --> 00:15:24.590 And I think it just puts so much more pressure. 00:15:24.610 --> 00:15:27.250 And I think organisations maybe should look at 00:15:27.250 --> 00:15:30.429 more outcome focused. So what is it you need 00:15:30.429 --> 00:15:32.970 to get done? What is it that your objectives, 00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:35.970 your KPIs, what results do they want to see? 00:15:36.029 --> 00:15:37.850 And I think as long as people are doing that 00:15:37.850 --> 00:15:41.460 and achieving that, we're grownups. want to do 00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:43.340 it we want to achieve we want to achieve those 00:15:43.340 --> 00:15:46.360 outcomes then that's okay having people just 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:48.840 sat in the office from nine to five nine to six 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.840 just for the feel sometimes like just for the 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:54.720 sake of it isn't beneficial to our work -life 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:57.120 balance to our mental health and it makes it 00:15:57.120 --> 00:15:59.559 so difficult for working parents maybe sometimes 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.440 just working mums but also working fathers as 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:04.840 well to be able to juggle that and do that and 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.360 I think from my last job about three years ago 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.259 I got made redundant and I was working part -time 00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:12.340 I was working two to three days a week and I 00:16:12.340 --> 00:16:14.179 was looking around for other part -time opportunities 00:16:14.179 --> 00:16:16.720 and they just weren't there and it just makes 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:18.700 it really difficult and that was one of the reasons 00:16:18.700 --> 00:16:21.039 why I went freelance it was something that I'd 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.840 always wanted to do some point in my career and 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:26.059 it was the ideal opportunity to just do it but 00:16:26.059 --> 00:16:28.639 one of the reasons that forced my hand was because 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:30.820 there weren't the flexible opportunities available. 00:16:31.210 --> 00:16:34.490 I couldn't 100 % agree with you more than that, 00:16:34.669 --> 00:16:37.889 that there's not that flexibility and having 00:16:37.889 --> 00:16:41.730 the companies that they're missing an opportunity 00:16:41.730 --> 00:16:45.090 where people are working from home. Many, many 00:16:45.090 --> 00:16:48.230 people talk to me very much openly about being 00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:50.870 able to concentrate more, being able to produce 00:16:50.870 --> 00:16:55.289 more and a better output when they are less distracted. 00:16:55.929 --> 00:16:58.610 working from home rather than in an office environment. 00:16:59.009 --> 00:17:02.250 And we need to be there to support many different 00:17:02.250 --> 00:17:04.910 people. But the fear factor does come in, doesn't 00:17:04.910 --> 00:17:06.930 it, about you saying that your hand was forced. 00:17:07.049 --> 00:17:09.009 Yes, you would always like to have done freelancing, 00:17:09.029 --> 00:17:12.509 but it was forced in that situation. And that, 00:17:12.569 --> 00:17:14.809 I think, is still a big fear factor, that big 00:17:14.809 --> 00:17:17.490 leap, isn't it, into going into freelancing. 00:17:18.109 --> 00:17:23.460 You know, it is how can we as women help and 00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:26.519 support each other have you got any networks 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:30.680 around that you utilize perhaps in that free 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.799 world yeah i mean there's lots of um women -focused 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:36.160 networks i'm on a couple of whatsapp groups that 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:39.000 women focus networks and they really do support 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:40.859 each other so if you put in something you're 00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:43.440 struggling with people just offer so much support 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:46.440 in those networks and i think it's about utilizing 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.039 them and just having that understanding and i'm 00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:52.059 just sort of hope that can help feed into that 00:17:52.059 --> 00:17:54.440 working environment. Because especially for some 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:56.759 industries as well, I mean, children get sick, 00:17:56.940 --> 00:17:58.859 we get sick, and there's that pressure that, 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:01.019 oh God, I've got to come into the office. You 00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:03.460 know, what do I do? I don't want to have to phone 00:18:03.460 --> 00:18:06.140 up my line manager and say, my child's not well, 00:18:06.259 --> 00:18:08.799 I can't come into work. And it's that. That fear 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:10.599 that if you keep doing that, am I going to lose 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:12.640 my job? Is there going to be a problem? So I 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.819 think we just need to sort of help each other 00:18:14.819 --> 00:18:17.119 out a bit more, think about what networks, how 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.579 we can get support and just be able to feel more 00:18:19.579 --> 00:18:21.660 comfortable about having those open conversations 00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:24.180 in our workplace, about speaking to our line 00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:26.700 managers to say that I'm struggling a bit at 00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:29.980 the moment. This is all a bit much. Can I just 00:18:29.980 --> 00:18:32.039 have a break? Can we look at my working hours? 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:34.420 Is there something different I can do? Working 00:18:34.420 --> 00:18:38.160 together with our own partners and saying, maybe 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:41.160 if I have a day where you take on the childcare 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:44.660 today, I can work longer hours today. And then 00:18:44.660 --> 00:18:47.319 when you need to do work longer hours, I can 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:49.720 sort of maybe set days a week or something where 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:52.099 you say, well. I'll support you this day if you 00:18:52.099 --> 00:18:54.680 support me another day, but also with other working 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:57.180 parents as well as much as possible. I think 00:18:57.180 --> 00:18:59.380 it's so important to have that community around 00:18:59.380 --> 00:19:02.640 you because a lot of us now don't live where 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:05.599 our parents live or we don't have family maybe 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:08.640 living close to us. A lot of us are in that sandwich 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.599 generation where we're caring for elderly parents 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:14.549 as well as... caring for our children as well 00:19:14.549 --> 00:19:17.170 and we sort of pulled in all directions and then 00:19:17.170 --> 00:19:20.250 one we still want to go to work we've still got 00:19:20.250 --> 00:19:22.670 those skills and we want to work working gives 00:19:22.670 --> 00:19:25.529 us a sense of purpose we want to have that achievement 00:19:25.529 --> 00:19:28.329 so just getting that balance right so having 00:19:28.329 --> 00:19:32.230 the the balance trying to look at what network 00:19:32.230 --> 00:19:35.990 we've got what community we can use perhaps put 00:19:35.990 --> 00:19:38.940 in other what other things could we perhaps put 00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:41.539 into into place and think about maybe in the 00:19:41.539 --> 00:19:45.460 workplace having women's groups so you can maybe 00:19:45.460 --> 00:19:48.940 a mentor program so other people that have gone 00:19:48.940 --> 00:19:51.799 through taking career breaks and gone into the 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:54.839 workplace or taking time out that have returned 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:57.500 to work they can sort of mentor people that just 00:19:57.500 --> 00:19:59.880 go through that experience and sharing their 00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:02.920 experiences so i suppose that does come back 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:06.640 to what what can the workplace do to support 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:10.480 and I think that again is a big gap yeah you 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:14.019 know we are very much brought back into the workforce 00:20:14.019 --> 00:20:18.599 perhaps and it is what a day or two perhaps of 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:21.880 an induction of some kind and then off you go 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:25.660 so yeah having those support groups within a 00:20:25.660 --> 00:20:29.680 firm so mentoring having a sort of a buddy or 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.400 someone that you could go to yeah or but enabling 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.519 that to happen you know I think sometimes you 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:39.920 know those programs are there but are they utilized 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:43.660 enough and I think yeah that what yeah what what 00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:47.740 can I think maybe finding out as well yeah has 00:20:47.740 --> 00:20:51.220 in place there was a when I returned to work 00:20:51.220 --> 00:20:56.019 after My daughter, I've always assumed that perhaps 00:20:56.019 --> 00:20:59.000 if she had a big medical appointment and I was 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.259 going to be not available for a couple of hours, 00:21:01.339 --> 00:21:03.380 that I had to take half a day's annual leave 00:21:03.380 --> 00:21:06.359 or something. Finding out if there's any caregiver 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:09.480 leave. Yeah. In practical things like that, there 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.980 was a five day caregiver leave. If you had something 00:21:12.980 --> 00:21:16.019 important, you know, if your child was really 00:21:16.019 --> 00:21:18.440 ill or something like that in place, I didn't 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:21.599 even realise that that was available. we're saying 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.440 about very much of career breaks and and especially 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:27.279 women we've got to touch on the subject of you 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:30.819 know menopause as well yeah definitely that perhaps 00:21:30.819 --> 00:21:33.299 as well is is missing and i know that there's 00:21:33.299 --> 00:21:36.019 a big thing looked into that and we're talking 00:21:36.019 --> 00:21:39.279 about returning to work as well but you know 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:41.240 people return to work for many different reasons 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:44.559 and you know especially you know the neurodiverse 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:48.240 you know section of our community as well how 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.319 are they supported what you know I think there's 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:54.099 a lot more workplace can do it's just finding 00:21:54.099 --> 00:21:57.900 out what um but as individuals finding out what 00:21:57.900 --> 00:22:01.119 is there and and unasking I think is that yeah 00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:03.240 I think that's a big thing is we don't always 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:07.230 ask So we need to, there's no harm asking the 00:22:07.230 --> 00:22:09.490 question. We might not get the answer that we're 00:22:09.490 --> 00:22:12.009 necessarily looking for. But if we ask the question 00:22:12.009 --> 00:22:14.730 and enough people ask the question, then hopefully 00:22:14.730 --> 00:22:17.869 workplaces will look at what can they do? What 00:22:17.869 --> 00:22:20.390 do they need to do to evolve? So I think it's 00:22:20.390 --> 00:22:22.589 about evolving and moving forward. I mean, you 00:22:22.589 --> 00:22:25.109 had a more recent sort of return to work when 00:22:25.109 --> 00:22:27.809 you went freelance back in -house. Was there 00:22:27.809 --> 00:22:29.710 anything particularly your organisation did to 00:22:29.710 --> 00:22:32.740 support you with that? There is some support. 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:36.880 I think there always could be more. And that 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:41.380 is perhaps if we find gaps, perhaps offer suggestions. 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:46.700 Because every company wants to get better at 00:22:46.700 --> 00:22:50.759 this. So if you're offering to maybe set up a 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:55.220 work group in -house and you're prepared to do 00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:57.119 that, they're going to be there saying, thank 00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:01.109 you very much. And it is sometimes just that, 00:23:01.170 --> 00:23:04.630 oh, let's go and have a half hour chat about 00:23:04.630 --> 00:23:08.390 something and what's on your mind and how we 00:23:08.390 --> 00:23:10.869 can support each other. But there certainly is 00:23:10.869 --> 00:23:13.869 more I think every firm can do. And I think they 00:23:13.869 --> 00:23:18.109 are aware of this too. So if we can offer suggestions, 00:23:18.670 --> 00:23:20.789 I always think there will be uptake. Yeah, I 00:23:20.789 --> 00:23:23.509 love the idea of being more proactive and actually 00:23:23.509 --> 00:23:28.000 sort of asking and suggesting as well. workplaces 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:30.680 are getting a lot better and I think definitely 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:33.279 from my first when I returned from my first career 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:35.619 break that's over 20 years ago now so I think 00:23:35.619 --> 00:23:38.000 workplaces are very different in supporting and 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:40.359 there are some schemes out there as well where 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:43.059 almost like a sort of internment turn sort of 00:23:43.059 --> 00:23:45.720 program where organizations are doing a set amount 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.180 of weeks or time where they're offering return 00:23:48.180 --> 00:23:50.640 to work programs so I think there's more that 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:53.000 is available if people can search for it and 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:55.680 find it and I think it is about developing those 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.880 skills to make us feel feel more confident to 00:23:57.880 --> 00:23:59.980 go back into the workplace. And like you say, 00:24:00.059 --> 00:24:02.380 it's very different reasons. It could be redundancy 00:24:02.380 --> 00:24:06.759 from looking after ill parents. It could be returning 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:08.900 from maternity leave. So there's lots of different 00:24:08.900 --> 00:24:12.319 reasons why people take that break and then decide 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:15.019 to go back into the workplace. And I think, especially 00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:17.099 when we talk about sort of more mature women, 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:19.299 we're talking about sort of ourselves being into 00:24:19.299 --> 00:24:21.740 our 50s and thinking about all those skills that 00:24:21.740 --> 00:24:23.960 we've got that we can give to workplaces and 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.119 what we've got to offer that make a make. us 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:28.960 more effective in the workplace. So organisations 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:32.940 maybe can help all of us return, maybe in a more 00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:35.700 sustainable way, that the retention is going 00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:38.000 to be there, but perhaps getting it all on the 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:41.960 level of making us feel a bit more human about 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:45.000 that return, building on the confidence. You 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.059 know, we, I was lucky enough during... my look 00:24:49.059 --> 00:24:52.819 for a return to work at one stage and reaching 00:24:52.819 --> 00:24:56.059 out for some coaching I knew that would help 00:24:56.059 --> 00:24:59.660 me I always felt that was out of my reach and 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.019 It was something that wasn't at my level that 00:25:03.019 --> 00:25:05.819 I would get in a workplace. And so it was actually 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:09.240 from a woman's community that someone was trying 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:12.240 to build up their hours and fabulously offered 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:16.079 some support. And I didn't know where to start 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:20.509 in coaching. And I've got to say. it was invaluable 00:25:20.509 --> 00:25:24.589 to me. So it's looking and finding those areas 00:25:24.589 --> 00:25:28.250 that perhaps could be low cost, no cost, things 00:25:28.250 --> 00:25:31.130 that would actually support you. And talking 00:25:31.130 --> 00:25:33.309 about other skills and especially sort of the 00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:35.509 tech side, we've got to think about how much 00:25:35.509 --> 00:25:37.809 tech has come forward and how much we can self 00:25:37.809 --> 00:25:42.059 -serve ourself as well. So I did a lot of LinkedIn 00:25:42.059 --> 00:25:45.279 learning, for instance, looking at YouTube. I 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:47.900 remember, you know, during the pandemic, you 00:25:47.900 --> 00:25:50.980 know, we couldn't have people in our house to 00:25:50.980 --> 00:25:52.640 fix our washing machines. I remember looking 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:54.720 it up on YouTube and having a riot old laugh 00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:57.779 doing it. Well, I did fix that washing machine 00:25:57.779 --> 00:26:00.359 at a time that was really needed. Well done. 00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:04.460 Very proud of that moment. And it's finding... 00:26:04.750 --> 00:26:07.650 the things that are there for you know at a low 00:26:07.650 --> 00:26:11.390 cost yeah and you know thinking about on top 00:26:11.390 --> 00:26:14.490 of our sort of routine and day -to -day where 00:26:14.490 --> 00:26:17.769 what we would do to help ourselves and and realize 00:26:17.769 --> 00:26:21.009 I suppose part of it actually it's a really hard 00:26:21.009 --> 00:26:24.890 process we know that when we're in it we forget 00:26:24.890 --> 00:26:28.349 perhaps how hard it is and what we can do to 00:26:28.349 --> 00:26:31.190 help ourselves then we end up in that big circle 00:26:31.190 --> 00:26:34.059 of beating ourselves up and our confidence dropping 00:26:34.059 --> 00:26:37.039 and all the things that we don't want to happen 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:40.819 sometimes do. And so checking on ourselves, I 00:26:40.819 --> 00:26:43.160 think, is massively important. You know, I mentioned 00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:46.380 about that sort of worry time, perhaps making 00:26:46.380 --> 00:26:49.920 a routine, keeping to it. But the biggest thing 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.819 that I think people are missing as well when 00:26:52.819 --> 00:26:55.319 they're in that horrible space is actually a 00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:58.579 bit of self -compassion. Yeah. Realising it is 00:26:58.579 --> 00:27:00.900 hard. Do you know what? I am going to find my 00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:03.240 confidence dip a bit. What can I do about it? 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.859 But just giving ourselves that bit of self -compassion, 00:27:05.859 --> 00:27:08.799 I think sometimes does really help us as well. 00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:10.579 Definitely. And I think a couple of things came 00:27:10.579 --> 00:27:12.180 to mind as you were saying that. And I think 00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:14.380 it's our mindset. We can think of all, we can 00:27:14.380 --> 00:27:16.420 always think of a hundred reasons why not to 00:27:16.420 --> 00:27:18.779 do something, but we just need to push ourselves 00:27:18.779 --> 00:27:20.839 and think about, okay, what's the worst that 00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:23.740 could happen if I, if I did this and just do 00:27:23.740 --> 00:27:25.880 one thing and just think of one thing probably 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.839 each. that today I'm going to try and it might 00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:31.480 not work out but hopefully it will and if you 00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:34.180 think enough times you're going to start doing 00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:36.460 things that are going to work out and just to 00:27:36.460 --> 00:27:38.799 put yourself out there and that will help you 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:41.700 gain confidence to move forward and I think I 00:27:41.700 --> 00:27:44.220 love your idea of the coach of coaching as well 00:27:44.220 --> 00:27:47.000 and gaining that when I took a break and I mean 00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:48.799 I'm a qualified coach but I hadn't coached for 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:50.920 a while because I hadn't been in the workplace 00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:52.859 environment and when I was thinking about getting 00:27:52.859 --> 00:27:55.619 back into it I was offering coaching to people 00:27:55.619 --> 00:27:58.440 that I knew people at school friends that maybe 00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:00.940 been redundant be made redundant so I was doing 00:28:00.940 --> 00:28:03.539 anything I could to increase my coaching skills 00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:06.259 and again gain my confidence just to try and 00:28:06.259 --> 00:28:08.500 get over that imposter syndrome as well that 00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:10.940 I was suffering from so I think we need to think 00:28:10.940 --> 00:28:13.700 about how we can sort of change our mindset to 00:28:13.700 --> 00:28:16.559 think okay I'm going to give this a try and talking 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:20.380 about freelancing and the fear of going into 00:28:20.380 --> 00:28:24.140 that I will jump on that and say absolutely give 00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:27.880 it a go what's the worst can happen And took 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:31.440 me, when I was looking for a flexible role, I 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.720 did return to work and then thought because of 00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.940 the lack of flexibility and the fear factor at 00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:40.740 the time when my daughter was very young, being 00:28:40.740 --> 00:28:44.180 so far away, if something happened, I wasn't 00:28:44.180 --> 00:28:46.779 close enough. There were so many different areas 00:28:46.779 --> 00:28:49.460 that made me feel uncomfortable that I wanted 00:28:49.460 --> 00:28:52.579 to go into the freelance world. And I looked 00:28:52.579 --> 00:28:56.180 at various options at the time. It was a rant. 00:28:56.329 --> 00:28:59.089 thing that happened I went to a baby class with 00:28:59.089 --> 00:29:01.730 my daughter when she was very young under a year 00:29:01.730 --> 00:29:04.390 and it was very much there was you know bubbles 00:29:04.390 --> 00:29:07.430 parachutes and songs and you know we've all probably 00:29:07.430 --> 00:29:10.630 been to one of those but it was great fun and 00:29:10.630 --> 00:29:12.569 I just remember sitting there on that first one 00:29:12.569 --> 00:29:15.869 going I could do that that would be brilliant 00:29:15.869 --> 00:29:19.589 fun and at the time I thought okay could I utilize 00:29:19.589 --> 00:29:22.190 and do something like that use my transferable 00:29:22.190 --> 00:29:26.799 skills in training and perhaps run a baby class 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:29.720 of sorts. I looked at franchises, funny enough, 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:31.720 first off, because I thought, oh, that'd be great. 00:29:31.819 --> 00:29:34.000 It all could be set up and I could have my area. 00:29:34.180 --> 00:29:38.660 That fell through. And I remember I was in tears. 00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:43.200 I was absolutely gutted. But on the flip side 00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:46.180 of that, I thought, I can do that. I've got all 00:29:46.180 --> 00:29:48.559 the skills to be able to put a class together. 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:51.440 How would I run a business? Let me find out about... 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:54.730 So it fueled me to actually... then start it 00:29:54.730 --> 00:29:57.450 up on my own which I did for a while and I did 00:29:57.450 --> 00:30:00.349 it for many years it was fantastic oh brilliant 00:30:00.349 --> 00:30:03.069 and then got government contracts there was always 00:30:03.069 --> 00:30:05.980 there was always little ways yeah But I always 00:30:05.980 --> 00:30:10.319 parked that thinking it was something I did as 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:14.079 a mum to bring in some pennies. When I did return 00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:16.819 and, you know, back into the industry world, 00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:19.119 and we talked about that, especially in interviews, 00:30:19.460 --> 00:30:21.299 they were like, well, that was fantastic. But 00:30:21.299 --> 00:30:24.700 I didn't realise the skills that were so much 00:30:24.700 --> 00:30:28.079 transferred. We underestimate ourselves so much 00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:35.519 as women, I think. That was a great way. your 00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:39.099 environment that would you and and we all talk 00:30:39.099 --> 00:30:41.460 about the you know if you have something you 00:30:41.460 --> 00:30:43.299 want to do they're having that passion behind 00:30:43.299 --> 00:30:46.140 something it will drive you but sometimes you've 00:30:46.140 --> 00:30:49.180 also got to make sure that the ends meet somehow 00:30:49.180 --> 00:30:52.599 so when another life occurrence you know and 00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:55.160 I needed to think about getting more money in 00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:59.640 I also ran the baby classes that were clearly 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:03.700 not particularly, you know, income heavy. And 00:31:03.700 --> 00:31:07.380 then I started to do some other freelance work 00:31:07.380 --> 00:31:10.220 and associate work for learning and development. 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:14.059 And so I did various amounts of different jobs. 00:31:14.299 --> 00:31:16.900 I think that's what built up that sort of flexibility 00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:20.200 and built it around what I needed to at the time. 00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:24.720 And it was hard, but great fun. But it did exactly 00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:28.059 what I wanted to do. So it's just finding those 00:31:28.059 --> 00:31:31.140 different little areas and in exploring them 00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:34.220 and having, I suppose, what that grit, determination 00:31:34.220 --> 00:31:37.299 and that, you know, just keep going. Because 00:31:37.299 --> 00:31:40.400 what is the worst that can happen? And for instance, 00:31:40.539 --> 00:31:43.559 my fear was no one's going to turn up to my baby 00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:47.920 class. What have I done? And it wasn't the case 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:51.390 at all. I offered free trials. There was always, 00:31:51.490 --> 00:31:54.029 you know, there was groups that I, you know, 00:31:54.029 --> 00:31:56.349 offered out and to, you know, any kind of sort 00:31:56.349 --> 00:31:59.150 of tech networking space at the time. It worked. 00:31:59.509 --> 00:32:02.450 And then, of course, you well know, again, in 00:32:02.450 --> 00:32:05.269 that sort of freelancing space and in any environment, 00:32:05.329 --> 00:32:07.710 I think it's that word of mouth. If someone's 00:32:07.710 --> 00:32:10.650 looking for, for instance, a fabulous coach like 00:32:10.650 --> 00:32:13.069 Jo, then people that you've coached around, it's 00:32:13.069 --> 00:32:14.390 like, well, yeah, do you know what? I've had 00:32:14.390 --> 00:32:16.589 coaching with Jo and it was fabulous. It's those 00:32:16.589 --> 00:32:19.400 kind of things. Word of mouth and just keeping 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:21.640 that sort of community open really helped. And 00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:23.440 that made me think about something I did for 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.319 a short while. I did pottery painting parties 00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:27.700 just because it was convenient. I could do it 00:32:27.700 --> 00:32:30.900 a weekend when my husband was around to do childcare. 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:33.279 So that was all fine. So, yeah, I did that for 00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:34.980 a little while. And I think it is that determination. 00:32:35.140 --> 00:32:37.099 It was like I wanted to do something. And it 00:32:37.099 --> 00:32:38.779 wasn't necessarily for me because I had a group 00:32:38.779 --> 00:32:41.000 of children, but I wanted to do something. And 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.099 I think sometimes we have to think what's right 00:32:43.099 --> 00:32:45.660 for us for now. We might not be what we want 00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:48.500 to do for our long term career. but that works 00:32:48.500 --> 00:32:51.140 for now and that's okay. And like you say, when 00:32:51.140 --> 00:32:53.059 you went for interviews, you could talk about 00:32:53.059 --> 00:32:55.400 lots of skills that you used for what you were 00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:57.880 doing then and they were transferable as well. 00:32:57.980 --> 00:32:59.980 So I think we need to look at it sort of like 00:32:59.980 --> 00:33:02.440 chapters in our life where we do, this is right 00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:05.079 for now. In five years time, I might be in a 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:07.059 different situation. I'll do something different 00:33:07.059 --> 00:33:08.980 then because that will work better for me then. 00:33:09.140 --> 00:33:11.680 So I think it's about reviewing and just not 00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:13.700 beating ourselves up that we have to have everything 00:33:13.700 --> 00:33:16.460 all at once because that doesn't always work. 00:33:16.490 --> 00:33:19.170 We have mum guilt and everything else. And it's 00:33:19.170 --> 00:33:21.970 just, just take a step back, do what's right 00:33:21.970 --> 00:33:24.650 for now. Focus on that work -life balance, I 00:33:24.650 --> 00:33:27.150 think is really important. And, you know, we 00:33:27.150 --> 00:33:30.230 often think that everyone has got it all together 00:33:30.230 --> 00:33:33.890 and there's no one in the world that does everything 00:33:33.890 --> 00:33:37.289 all together. It is not the case, is it? And 00:33:37.289 --> 00:33:40.150 I think just realising that we all are spinning 00:33:40.150 --> 00:33:43.349 so many different plates all the time and, you 00:33:43.349 --> 00:33:46.430 know, and it's just reality. Yeah. you're right 00:33:46.430 --> 00:33:48.789 something might not work right now or it does 00:33:48.789 --> 00:33:51.589 but it's what right now is what really matters 00:33:51.589 --> 00:33:53.809 isn't it be in the moment and i think yeah we 00:33:53.809 --> 00:33:56.190 just achieve everyone's got those instagram lovely 00:33:56.190 --> 00:33:59.390 looking lives and it's just not not at all so 00:33:59.390 --> 00:34:02.309 yeah just do the best you can with what you where 00:34:02.309 --> 00:34:04.690 you are right now you know i think returning 00:34:04.690 --> 00:34:08.429 to to work is it's not at that single moment 00:34:08.429 --> 00:34:12.510 is it it is a complete and utter roller coaster 00:34:12.510 --> 00:34:17.559 that touches every aspect of our world and i 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:21.659 think anything any of us can do to help is always 00:34:21.659 --> 00:34:24.639 you know of benefit for any person out there 00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:26.760 whether you know we're women and you've got to 00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:29.900 think about men as well you know there's completely 00:34:29.900 --> 00:34:32.880 different pressures as well surrounding them 00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:36.920 so perhaps a podcast around men men into work 00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:39.880 at some stage beneficial Because men take career 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:42.239 breaks. Men go through redundancy. They take 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:45.119 time out. They have to then return to work. So, 00:34:45.139 --> 00:34:48.159 yeah, I think definitely. And I think just kind 00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:50.579 of finishing off on the subject of returning 00:34:50.579 --> 00:34:53.579 to work, I think returning to work does give 00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:56.099 us a sense of purpose. It's really good sometimes, 00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:58.199 I think, to just push ourselves out of our comfort 00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:01.400 zones, give us those challenges. And I think 00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:03.719 that's what makes us grow as women and to just 00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:06.519 take a chance and just try it. And sometimes 00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:09.260 when you go back through into work and it feels 00:35:09.260 --> 00:35:11.599 like really hard to get into the workplace because 00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:14.260 you have to drop children off at childcare. But 00:35:14.260 --> 00:35:16.039 once you get into the office, you can achieve 00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:19.039 something. You can grow as a person. And it is 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:21.380 just getting into that new routine. So what feels 00:35:21.380 --> 00:35:24.099 really different for the first and really hard 00:35:24.099 --> 00:35:26.480 for the first couple of weeks, in six months' 00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:29.059 time when you got back into that routine, becomes 00:35:29.059 --> 00:35:31.739 a lot more your new normal as well. Yeah, I think 00:35:31.739 --> 00:35:34.480 returning to work is certainly something that 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:37.530 is... not going back to the person you were before, 00:35:37.809 --> 00:35:42.170 whether it be a mum returning to work, whether 00:35:42.170 --> 00:35:45.500 it be through redundancy, a career break. Even 00:35:45.500 --> 00:35:48.260 travel, if you're fortunate enough to. Whatever 00:35:48.260 --> 00:35:51.340 break you've had, you are not going back to the 00:35:51.340 --> 00:35:52.980 person you were before. It's all about, I suppose, 00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:55.260 moving forward with everything that you have 00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:57.380 gained. It's part of life, isn't it? It's part 00:35:57.380 --> 00:36:00.980 of us growing as people and moving forward. And 00:36:00.980 --> 00:36:03.579 I think just keeping that open conversation real 00:36:03.579 --> 00:36:06.599 with everyone and asking what their experience 00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:10.780 is and not forgetting to ask for help. Yeah, 00:36:10.940 --> 00:36:14.000 and being brave and to sort of say when you're 00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:15.750 struggling. then you need a bit more support. 00:36:15.989 --> 00:36:18.010 It's been a really great conversation. It has 00:36:18.010 --> 00:36:20.070 been. Thank you so much for your time, Jo. I 00:36:20.070 --> 00:36:22.210 really appreciate it. No, it's been great to 00:36:22.210 --> 00:36:24.329 learn more about you, Claire, as well. Thank 00:36:24.329 --> 00:36:29.829 you. This is such an interesting listen. We love 00:36:29.829 --> 00:36:32.929 the advice our guest said. Remember to break 00:36:32.929 --> 00:36:35.710 down the process into small steps, ask for help 00:36:35.710 --> 00:36:38.289 when needed and utilise practical techniques 00:36:38.289 --> 00:36:42.030 to manage anxiety. With these strategies, women 00:36:42.030 --> 00:36:44.570 can successfully navigate their return to work 00:36:44.570 --> 00:36:47.829 and thrive in their careers. A massive thank 00:36:47.829 --> 00:36:49.989 you to Claire and Joe for their time and you'll 00:36:49.989 --> 00:36:52.329 find all their details along with links to the 00:36:52.329 --> 00:36:54.590 subjects they spoke about in the show notes. 00:36:55.530 --> 00:36:58.469 Please do remember to like and subscribe to the 00:36:58.469 --> 00:37:01.809 podcast on your podcast player. It does make 00:37:01.809 --> 00:37:04.230 a real difference in helping people find and 00:37:04.230 --> 00:37:07.059 recommend us. We're looking for guests for our 00:37:07.059 --> 00:37:09.599 next block of topics. Check these out on our 00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:12.000 website, and if you're interested, please get 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:17.239 in touch via email to hello at lan .com. We'll 00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:19.300 be back in a couple of weeks. Next time, it's 00:37:19.300 --> 00:37:23.539 the grief one. As always, thank you for listening, 00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:25.139 and we'll see you again soon.