WEBVTT 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:14.240 Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:16.379 Identity One of the Women Talking About Learning 00:00:16.379 --> 00:00:20.300 podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. In today's fast -paced 00:00:20.300 --> 00:00:23.140 world, many of us find ourselves trapped in specific 00:00:23.140 --> 00:00:26.640 identities that no longer serve us. This phenomenon, 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:29.620 known as identity lock -in, can lead to feelings 00:00:29.620 --> 00:00:33.119 of stagnation and dissatisfaction. We have four 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:35.600 wonderful guests to share their insights on this 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:38.380 topic, exploring how we can break free from these 00:00:38.380 --> 00:00:42.159 constraints and redefine ourselves. Our first 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:45.280 guest is Susan Fitzell. An international speaker 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:48.280 and author, Susan brings decades of expertise 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:51.859 in fostering human potential to educational and 00:00:51.859 --> 00:00:55.520 business communities worldwide. Having been diagnosed 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:58.380 with neurodivergence concurrently with her child, 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:01.939 Susan offers deep personal insights into dyslexia, 00:01:01.979 --> 00:01:06.019 ADHD, autism and auditory processing disorder. 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:10.670 Our second guest is Dr. Megan Waldron. A lifelong 00:01:10.670 --> 00:01:13.489 dreamer, Megan inspires students to share their 00:01:13.489 --> 00:01:15.930 stories, building confidence through hands -on 00:01:15.930 --> 00:01:19.569 writing, reflection and honest feedback. More 00:01:19.569 --> 00:01:22.129 recently, she's encouraging female leaders to 00:01:22.129 --> 00:01:24.609 do the same through her work with Women in Change 00:01:24.609 --> 00:01:28.980 USA. Our next guest is Nikki Hobson. Nikki is 00:01:28.980 --> 00:01:32.260 a learning specialist at the BBC and is an experienced 00:01:32.260 --> 00:01:34.980 learning designer who's worked across the private, 00:01:35.180 --> 00:01:38.700 public and voluntary sectors. She's also a smartphone 00:01:38.700 --> 00:01:41.659 videographer and trainer who helps others create 00:01:41.659 --> 00:01:45.379 great video with their smartphones. Our final 00:01:45.379 --> 00:01:49.239 guest is Aiko Sato. Aiko works with people and 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:52.219 organisations to understand how learning, culture 00:01:52.219 --> 00:01:56.019 and behaviour evolve together over time. She 00:01:56.019 --> 00:01:58.680 often acts as a bridge between ideas and practice, 00:01:58.939 --> 00:02:01.319 helping insights travel from learning spaces 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:05.620 into real situations. Recorded in January of 00:02:05.620 --> 00:02:09.360 2026, this is Women Talking About Learning. This 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:13.620 is Susan, Megan, Nikki, and Aiko talking about 00:02:13.620 --> 00:02:17.699 identity. Hello, everyone. It's so exciting to 00:02:17.699 --> 00:02:20.219 see all of you. You know, I was doing research 00:02:20.219 --> 00:02:22.939 on this topic, the identity one. Like, I know 00:02:22.939 --> 00:02:26.780 how I felt when I... When I decided to say, yeah, 00:02:26.819 --> 00:02:29.659 that's a good one for me, this topic. But I wasn't 00:02:29.659 --> 00:02:33.419 sure if my perspective was common or something 00:02:33.419 --> 00:02:35.539 other people think about. And I learned something 00:02:35.539 --> 00:02:37.400 I'd never heard before. Do you know that there 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:42.460 is a word for being stuck in an identity? And 00:02:42.460 --> 00:02:45.379 it's called identity lock -in. Nikki, have you 00:02:45.379 --> 00:02:49.080 ever heard of that? Identity lock -in. No, I've 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:52.979 not. But I'm very, very intrigued. I would assume 00:02:52.979 --> 00:02:56.419 that it is when you... But yeah, I can't wait 00:02:56.419 --> 00:02:59.479 to hear more about that. Okay. Anybody else? 00:02:59.500 --> 00:03:02.580 Meg, did you ever heard of it? Aiko? I've never 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:04.979 heard of it, but I think it's a common thing 00:03:04.979 --> 00:03:06.819 that a lot of people experience, especially mid 00:03:06.819 --> 00:03:09.060 -career. You know, you've been somewhere for 00:03:09.060 --> 00:03:10.900 a long time. You're comfortable in that spot. 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:13.539 And as my students would say, they're locked 00:03:13.539 --> 00:03:15.919 in, right? But I think we can also find ourselves 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:18.819 somewhat stuck and we forget where we start and 00:03:18.819 --> 00:03:20.759 our identity begins and vice versa. So I could 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:23.039 definitely see how that happens. Exactly. That's 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:25.599 exactly what it is. Yeah. Did somebody else have 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:29.800 something? No, it's really interesting that that's 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:31.979 kind of the commonality. Because when you said 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:34.219 that just now, Susan, I was like, what? That 00:03:34.219 --> 00:03:36.979 sounds ridiculous. Because I often find myself, 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:38.900 and the reason why I was curious about this topic 00:03:38.900 --> 00:03:40.979 is I'm always trying to figure out what is my 00:03:40.979 --> 00:03:43.360 identity. And I'm always talking about how identities 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:46.219 are so fluid and intersectional. We're a part 00:03:46.219 --> 00:03:48.439 of so many different types of selves at once. 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:51.800 So the idea of an identity lock -in for me sounds 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:55.240 really scary. But what was kind of the conversation 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:58.699 around it? I'm curious. Same, exactly, exactly 00:03:58.699 --> 00:04:01.719 what you're all saying is you get locked into 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:06.539 an identity and women are more often challenged 00:04:06.539 --> 00:04:10.620 to get out of it than men and other genders. 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:14.500 It's just being locked into an identity. We're 00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:17.120 kind of conditioned as women to, you know, play 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:20.519 nice, be nice, be loyal, stay with something. 00:04:21.209 --> 00:04:24.269 And even if it's no longer serving us or causing 00:04:24.269 --> 00:04:27.689 us to lose, you know, ourselves. And we feel 00:04:27.689 --> 00:04:30.649 like if we do lose, if we do change our identity, 00:04:30.810 --> 00:04:32.750 we might be losing that version of ourselves, 00:04:32.889 --> 00:04:35.870 which is really difficult for people, especially 00:04:35.870 --> 00:04:38.750 women, who we build this identity around who 00:04:38.750 --> 00:04:41.930 we are. Susan, I'm intrigued on what the research 00:04:41.930 --> 00:04:46.300 said. So is that we get... locked in an identity 00:04:46.300 --> 00:04:51.319 at work or at home or in our social lives? Do 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:54.420 we change our identities and they become locked 00:04:54.420 --> 00:04:57.339 in in that situation? Or is it a general whole 00:04:57.339 --> 00:05:01.360 identity? In what I was looking at, it happens 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:03.759 at various periods of your life and it can happen 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.699 in different roles. You know, and that for me, 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:08.779 I'll just say my little bit for me, I studied 00:05:08.779 --> 00:05:11.639 Kung Fu for 30 years. I probably should have 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:15.790 stopped studying Kung Fu 15, 10 to 15 years earlier. 00:05:16.009 --> 00:05:19.509 But Kung Fu is such a part of my identity that, 00:05:19.529 --> 00:05:23.009 and I remember saying, I can't, I can't separate 00:05:23.009 --> 00:05:25.790 from this. It's so much. And my license plate 00:05:25.790 --> 00:05:27.990 on my car says Kung Fu. It still says Kung Fu. 00:05:28.250 --> 00:05:31.910 But when it was no longer serving me, when because 00:05:31.910 --> 00:05:34.509 of age and other limitations, I could no longer 00:05:34.509 --> 00:05:37.370 grow in Kung Fu. I couldn't advance. I couldn't 00:05:37.370 --> 00:05:39.930 do what I wanted to do anymore. Like as far as 00:05:39.930 --> 00:05:42.129 what my own goals were in the, in the art. I 00:05:42.129 --> 00:05:45.689 had such a hard time leaving and it took a crisis, 00:05:45.730 --> 00:05:49.769 a kind of a very toxic event to finally say, 00:05:49.850 --> 00:05:51.709 OK, I'm done with this and I'll go to what I 00:05:51.709 --> 00:05:54.089 love, which was ballroom dance. That's one part 00:05:54.089 --> 00:05:56.110 of my life. And the reason I chose this podcast 00:05:56.110 --> 00:05:58.449 was I'm in another part of that. But I don't 00:05:58.449 --> 00:06:00.709 want to I don't want to monetize the conversation. 00:06:01.050 --> 00:06:03.610 So I'm monopolized. That's the word. I wonder 00:06:03.610 --> 00:06:05.290 what what you think, Meg, because you had a lot 00:06:05.290 --> 00:06:07.290 to say about it. You seem to know about it. Well, 00:06:07.470 --> 00:06:10.699 I. I was a high school teacher by trade and moved 00:06:10.699 --> 00:06:13.240 into higher ed a few years ago. And so I'm wondering 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:15.319 if this is a learned behavior, especially now 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:17.879 in the university world. I work with students 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:20.120 every day that just struggle. They vacillate. 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.199 I'm pre -med. I have to be pre -med. Ever since 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:24.560 I was four, I knew I wanted to be a doctor. And 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:26.339 their heart is really might be leaning towards 00:06:26.339 --> 00:06:28.740 a completely different career. So sometimes I 00:06:28.740 --> 00:06:31.019 wonder, is this something where, you know, this 00:06:31.019 --> 00:06:33.079 is a learned behavior where you feel like you 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:35.800 have to lock in because you have those external 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:39.290 pressures? In addition, maybe to how you also 00:06:39.290 --> 00:06:42.980 identify yourself. I don't know. Thoughts, Aiko? 00:06:43.180 --> 00:06:44.839 You think it's a learned behavior or is it the 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:46.980 pressure we put on ourselves? Well, it's kind 00:06:46.980 --> 00:06:49.420 of interesting because I used to work with elementary 00:06:49.420 --> 00:06:52.779 school kids. And I mean, I'm inclined to say 00:06:52.779 --> 00:06:55.000 it's a learned behavior because even as in a 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:58.120 kindergarten, first grade, you kind of ask them, 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:00.120 like, what's your favorite color? What do you 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.000 want to be when you grow up? Who do you, you 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:03.839 know, we try to get these like characteristics 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:06.360 placed on. And I know it's so that we can learn 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:08.980 different facts about them. But I think, you 00:07:08.980 --> 00:07:11.990 know. That plus this idea that we have to be 00:07:11.990 --> 00:07:14.230 like really, really excellent at something in 00:07:14.230 --> 00:07:16.790 order for it to count or be worthwhile. So I 00:07:16.790 --> 00:07:19.529 think we start to develop this sunk cost fallacy 00:07:19.529 --> 00:07:21.410 of, well, I've already spent so much time on 00:07:21.410 --> 00:07:24.110 this. And if I'm going to do something here or 00:07:24.110 --> 00:07:26.769 do something there, then I can't spend as much 00:07:26.769 --> 00:07:28.829 if it's not going to be 100 percent worth doing. 00:07:29.209 --> 00:07:32.029 You know, like, is it OK to do something poorly 00:07:32.029 --> 00:07:35.189 or be something, you know, halfheartedly? And 00:07:35.189 --> 00:07:38.240 I think we get kind of scared of that. But I 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:41.379 do think that that is a social model because 00:07:41.379 --> 00:07:44.300 when you look at younger kids or when you look 00:07:44.300 --> 00:07:47.139 at people also past retirement age, sometimes 00:07:47.139 --> 00:07:49.959 the freedom of kind of stepping outside the societal 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:52.879 confines allows people to be more playful. So 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:54.879 I don't know. What do you think, Nikki? I think 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:56.439 you're right. I think it starts with that learnt 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:59.240 behavior. I think there's a lot of things that 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:02.079 we develop as a child, like I want to do this. 00:08:02.889 --> 00:08:05.790 feeds through to university as in oh I've committed 00:08:05.790 --> 00:08:08.310 to a three -year degree I've got to keep with 00:08:08.310 --> 00:08:10.410 this and then I think it becomes that social 00:08:10.410 --> 00:08:15.069 pressure and I'd say external pressure obligation 00:08:15.069 --> 00:08:19.209 maybe that you kind of have to stick at it especially 00:08:19.209 --> 00:08:22.310 like if we use the example of a degree You've 00:08:22.310 --> 00:08:25.350 probably been funded and supported by your family 00:08:25.350 --> 00:08:28.370 or your friends. If you then, at the end of that 00:08:28.370 --> 00:08:30.949 degree, turn around and go, oh no, I don't want 00:08:30.949 --> 00:08:33.950 to be a doctor, for example, are you then, or 00:08:33.950 --> 00:08:36.169 do you then feel like you're going to let people 00:08:36.169 --> 00:08:39.470 down? So that's probably where the lock -in comes 00:08:39.470 --> 00:08:42.289 in because there's that pressure. So I think 00:08:42.289 --> 00:08:44.990 it's probably a bit of both. And it's then, do 00:08:44.990 --> 00:08:47.830 you have, I say the courage, I think that's probably 00:08:47.830 --> 00:08:51.240 the right word, the courage to break that. And 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:53.019 again, if we stick to that university example, 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:56.460 when you're 21, 22, telling your parents, no, 00:08:56.539 --> 00:08:58.500 I don't want to do this. That's a really brave 00:08:58.500 --> 00:09:01.500 thing to do. I think there's also a way to change 00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:04.080 the narrative a little bit, because I heard you 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:05.879 say, Nikki, that, you know, you have to come 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:07.980 to this breaking point, right? Or Susan, you 00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:09.840 said that it was something kind of catastrophic 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.279 that made you pivot. But I also heard you say, 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:14.200 Susan, that you had those transferable skills. 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:15.899 While I wouldn't want to meet you in a back alley 00:09:15.899 --> 00:09:18.740 with 30 years of Kung Fu, right? You said that 00:09:18.740 --> 00:09:21.120 you're able to kind of pivot that to be a salsa 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:24.179 dancer. And so I think what I always like to 00:09:24.179 --> 00:09:26.159 talk with students and particularly also with 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:28.460 women is that a lot of the skills we have are 00:09:28.460 --> 00:09:30.539 transferable. So our identity is fundamental, 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:34.120 but those skills and traits can transfer into 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:37.419 other professions, other areas. Yeah, I think 00:09:37.419 --> 00:09:40.850 that's true. And for me in ballroom, I've. I 00:09:40.850 --> 00:09:43.149 found that, you know, I'm doing dance sport. 00:09:43.210 --> 00:09:45.450 I had to stay competing because I needed goals. 00:09:45.830 --> 00:09:48.649 And I wanted to have all that, the benefits of 00:09:48.649 --> 00:09:51.850 partner dancing, et cetera. So anyway, for me, 00:09:51.850 --> 00:09:53.730 it was looking at my life. I'm like, how many 00:09:53.730 --> 00:09:56.049 years do I have left? See, I am that person at 00:09:56.049 --> 00:09:59.529 retirement age. And that's my new identity challenge. 00:09:59.789 --> 00:10:01.970 Who are you after work? And I think for most 00:10:01.970 --> 00:10:04.750 of us, that's a big part of it. Work. What we 00:10:04.750 --> 00:10:07.029 do with our relationship, like we have a significant 00:10:07.029 --> 00:10:09.769 relationship for most of our years. And then 00:10:09.769 --> 00:10:13.190 the other one is maybe our hobbies. How do we 00:10:13.190 --> 00:10:15.889 have invested so much in a hobby or in a lifetime 00:10:15.889 --> 00:10:19.649 activity? And how do we move past that? And some 00:10:19.649 --> 00:10:21.269 of them are inevitable, like having children 00:10:21.269 --> 00:10:23.409 and they grow up and they leave the nest. You 00:10:23.409 --> 00:10:26.710 can't stop that identity change from mother to 00:10:26.710 --> 00:10:30.029 now empty nester. But some you can have a choice 00:10:30.029 --> 00:10:32.309 for. And that's where we get locked in, even 00:10:32.309 --> 00:10:34.379 when it no longer serves us. like the college 00:10:34.379 --> 00:10:38.139 kid. That's a really good example. No longer 00:10:38.139 --> 00:10:40.659 serves me to be in this profession, but I feel 00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:42.980 like I have to because, and there could be a 00:10:42.980 --> 00:10:45.860 myriad of reasons. Yeah. I work with a lot of 00:10:45.860 --> 00:10:48.700 coaches, life coaches, career coaches. And so 00:10:48.700 --> 00:10:51.240 they, one of the core tenants around that is 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:55.409 this. broadening of definitions um and so it's 00:10:55.409 --> 00:10:56.950 it's really always and i think that's kind of 00:10:56.950 --> 00:10:59.230 why i got so caught on like the idea that identity 00:10:59.230 --> 00:11:02.450 is so fluid because in one mind like going from 00:11:02.450 --> 00:11:04.929 kung fu to ballroom for example feels like two 00:11:04.929 --> 00:11:07.350 transitions you could have put an umbrella on 00:11:07.350 --> 00:11:10.210 say like i'm somebody who loves to use my body 00:11:10.210 --> 00:11:11.990 and i love to be physical and i love you know 00:11:11.990 --> 00:11:15.039 like that didn't change, you know, and so or 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:17.399 I'm someone who loves to be curious. And so there 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:19.460 are different ways to compartmentalize things. 00:11:19.659 --> 00:11:22.059 But I also think that there's also some core 00:11:22.059 --> 00:11:26.519 aspects that perhaps don't change. And I wonder, 00:11:26.580 --> 00:11:30.100 yeah, how does that fit into this conversation? 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:33.600 I don't know. How does that land? Oh, I think 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:36.720 it's very valid because when you said it's put 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.399 it under the umbrella, I just had a light bulb 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:42.929 go off and like, oh, right. That's really not 00:11:42.929 --> 00:11:47.149 like totally changing. You reframe it. What did 00:11:47.149 --> 00:11:50.230 Megan and Nikki think about that? I think it's 00:11:50.230 --> 00:11:53.470 brilliant. As you were talking... Oh, go ahead, 00:11:53.610 --> 00:11:56.250 Nikki. It reminded me... Sorry, I called on two 00:11:56.250 --> 00:12:01.149 of you. It reminded me of... You mentioned earlier 00:12:01.149 --> 00:12:04.570 about Kung Fu not serving you anymore. Well, 00:12:04.690 --> 00:12:07.610 I'm going to mention that dreaded C word of COVID. 00:12:08.129 --> 00:12:12.139 So before COVID, I ran a lot, but I... Then stopped. 00:12:12.340 --> 00:12:14.879 And I couldn't figure out why. And like you were 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:17.379 saying earlier, I felt like I'd lost part of 00:12:17.379 --> 00:12:20.240 myself and part of my identity because I met 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:22.679 a lot of people through running. It became a 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:25.720 really sociable thing. During COVID, that stopped. 00:12:25.940 --> 00:12:29.700 I started running again after COVID. I stupidly 00:12:29.700 --> 00:12:32.100 signed up for a marathon, then had to keep going 00:12:32.100 --> 00:12:34.840 out. I didn't do it. I stopped. But I kept thinking, 00:12:34.899 --> 00:12:37.899 why don't I enjoy this anymore? Where is this? 00:12:38.570 --> 00:12:41.389 gone and taking that step back and like you say 00:12:41.389 --> 00:12:43.769 looking at that umbrella I realized it wasn't 00:12:43.769 --> 00:12:46.830 running necessarily that kept me going back every 00:12:46.830 --> 00:12:49.870 week it was the people and it was the social 00:12:49.870 --> 00:12:52.649 element so I think taking a step back and reflecting 00:12:52.649 --> 00:12:56.450 on why was this such a big part of my identity 00:12:56.450 --> 00:12:59.210 well it was that connection with other people 00:12:59.710 --> 00:13:02.889 That was what it was that drew me to that hobby. 00:13:03.029 --> 00:13:05.690 Not necessarily the moving of my body or the 00:13:05.690 --> 00:13:08.110 fitness. I mean, that's an added bonus, but it 00:13:08.110 --> 00:13:10.490 was the, I see the same people every week. We 00:13:10.490 --> 00:13:12.970 have a coffee, we have a ketchup. That was the 00:13:12.970 --> 00:13:15.669 thing that I was missing. And obviously during 00:13:15.669 --> 00:13:19.490 lockdown, we all missed that. So yeah, I think 00:13:19.490 --> 00:13:22.230 looking for that umbrella is a really interesting 00:13:22.230 --> 00:13:25.220 way of looking at identity. Do you think this 00:13:25.220 --> 00:13:27.279 is something that fundamentally just impacts 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:30.399 women? Or do you think that men experience these 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:34.000 shifts in identity, these identity crises? Thoughts 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.620 on that? I'm sure they do. It's whether they 00:13:36.620 --> 00:13:39.700 talk about it as openly as we do. That's fair. 00:13:39.860 --> 00:13:44.279 Yeah. Well, I think they do. I know my husband 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:46.659 has, you know, when he had to change his careers. 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:49.799 But it's a little bit different. I think it's 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:52.259 a little... My opinion, it's harder for women 00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:54.960 because we're taught to be loyal and nice and 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.139 grateful and not rock the boat. And a lot of 00:13:58.139 --> 00:14:00.700 times when we want to change our identity, we 00:14:00.700 --> 00:14:03.299 may not be able to be loyal anymore. It may not 00:14:03.299 --> 00:14:05.259 feel nice to the people looking on our social 00:14:05.259 --> 00:14:06.940 network because you're right. That's a big part 00:14:06.940 --> 00:14:09.059 of what I do because I'm an extrovert. I want 00:14:09.059 --> 00:14:11.360 to be around people. And Kung Fu is a lot about 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:14.019 people. And right now my work is a lot about 00:14:14.019 --> 00:14:16.700 who the who if I change what I do for a living. 00:14:17.179 --> 00:14:19.639 Who am I and who are my friends and who do I 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:21.460 socialize with and how do I do blah, blah, blah 00:14:21.460 --> 00:14:24.240 that I do now? So but I think that we're taught 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:27.000 that leaving means that we failed or we quit 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:29.200 or we're ungrateful for the people who did X, 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:32.159 Y, Z to get us where we are or we're selfish. 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:34.679 So we stay. And I'm not sure men have all those 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:37.629 same pressures. I think it can also depend on 00:14:37.629 --> 00:14:39.750 the industry you're in. So I worked with pre 00:14:39.750 --> 00:14:41.710 -nursing students for a long time. They did a 00:14:41.710 --> 00:14:43.309 lot of informational interviews with nursing 00:14:43.309 --> 00:14:46.129 staff. I was a high school teacher for almost 00:14:46.129 --> 00:14:49.029 15 years. And I know leaving professions that 00:14:49.029 --> 00:14:51.029 are more vocational like that, there's just a 00:14:51.029 --> 00:14:53.370 tremendous amount of guilt, I think, when you 00:14:53.370 --> 00:14:55.409 shed that identity, even if you're moving into 00:14:55.409 --> 00:14:58.750 a very similar field. So I think it comes not 00:14:58.750 --> 00:15:00.590 only, you know, it's not only dependent on gender, 00:15:00.629 --> 00:15:04.200 but also what area you're in. Could be. I mean, 00:15:04.220 --> 00:15:06.259 it's funny that three of us, Nikki, have you 00:15:06.259 --> 00:15:10.360 ever worked with students? Not higher ed or education. 00:15:10.539 --> 00:15:13.860 No, I work with adults. Okay. But three of us 00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:16.799 are teachers in K -12, which is really kind of 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:19.519 interesting that three of us are in this room 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:22.500 and we all have similar backgrounds. I have kind 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:24.559 of a hot take, and I'm curious to see what your 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:27.100 guys' reaction to it around identity and gender. 00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:30.179 Sometimes I think, and this is a personal reflection, 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:34.519 I use the comfort of labeling my identities as 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:37.039 almost like validation for why I choose to do 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.659 something or how I approach something. Sometimes 00:15:39.659 --> 00:15:43.539 I think that for men, given the space of privilege 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:45.720 that they're in, just being a man is enough in 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.840 a space. You know, I'm at the gym. Men work out. 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.490 You know, I'm at this certain role. at this company, 00:15:52.549 --> 00:15:55.590 men are bosses, you know, the man of the house, 00:15:55.610 --> 00:15:59.149 that kind of thing. And so I feel like sometimes 00:15:59.149 --> 00:16:03.730 when I give a justification by saying, well, 00:16:03.750 --> 00:16:05.629 this is my tendency, this is important to me, 00:16:05.669 --> 00:16:09.889 it's almost like I have to validate why I'm taking 00:16:09.889 --> 00:16:12.470 up space or why I'm saying something in a certain 00:16:12.470 --> 00:16:14.710 way. Not to say that that's all that identities 00:16:14.710 --> 00:16:17.769 serve, but I do find that that is a comfort that 00:16:17.769 --> 00:16:20.879 I have. Yeah. And I think sometimes to that point, 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:23.279 I go, we have to explain our identity or why 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:25.559 we deserve space at that table where it might 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:28.860 come naturally to other people for sure. I'm 00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:30.700 going to switch gears. I'm curious, Nikki, because 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:32.840 you work with adult learners. How do you think 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:35.539 learning plays into our identity and why is it 00:16:35.539 --> 00:16:37.700 important for us to be continuous learners as 00:16:37.700 --> 00:16:41.179 women? Oh, what a question. That's a great question. 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:43.120 Hard hitting on a Friday afternoon. It's only 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.340 10 a .m. here in the States. I'm on my first 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:49.940 cup of coffee. What a question. I'll recap. Why 00:16:49.940 --> 00:16:52.740 should women keep learning? I would reframe that 00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:55.360 to why should everybody keep learning? That's 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:58.679 fair. But we are on a podcast around women. But 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:01.179 I think it's coming back to that. We all hit 00:17:01.179 --> 00:17:03.299 different stages of life. Like you say, Susan, 00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:06.500 if you have children, that does then impact. 00:17:07.150 --> 00:17:09.549 Well, it consumes your entire life. So at that 00:17:09.549 --> 00:17:11.569 point, you start learning about different things. 00:17:11.930 --> 00:17:15.630 I feel like learning for me is critical for our 00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:18.369 minds and our brains and our souls. If we're 00:17:18.369 --> 00:17:21.309 not learning, we're stagnating. And as women, 00:17:21.329 --> 00:17:24.269 that can seriously have a negative impact on 00:17:24.269 --> 00:17:29.069 our identity because. Our identity from our early 00:17:29.069 --> 00:17:33.269 years is often told, it's defined by what's around 00:17:33.269 --> 00:17:35.869 us and what we do and who we are and how we relate 00:17:35.869 --> 00:17:38.589 to other people, how caring and helpful and womanly 00:17:38.589 --> 00:17:41.009 we are. So if we're not still learning about 00:17:41.009 --> 00:17:43.450 other things that help us feel like, hey, I'm 00:17:43.450 --> 00:17:46.390 capable, I'm empowered, I can learn, I can do 00:17:46.390 --> 00:17:49.309 different things, then we really have to ask, 00:17:49.349 --> 00:17:51.690 who are we? I think to expand on that, Susan, 00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:55.000 I think if... We don't continue to learn. It's 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:58.279 very easy to get boxed in, to get locked in. 00:17:58.380 --> 00:18:01.519 You take a certain role at certain points of 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:03.880 your life. And as I said earlier, it can become 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:06.460 consuming. So if you're not continuously learning, 00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:08.960 continuously reading about things, trying new 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:11.599 things, then when you do get the example we used 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.759 earlier with the empty nest, that can feel really 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:16.369 lonely. So I think that continuous learning is 00:18:16.369 --> 00:18:18.289 the, oh God, when are the kids going? I can't 00:18:18.289 --> 00:18:19.890 wait for the kids to go because I want to do 00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:22.369 this and I can't do it yet and things like that. 00:18:22.410 --> 00:18:24.410 It just keeps us going at different phases of 00:18:24.410 --> 00:18:27.559 our lives. That's interesting because one of 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:30.539 the reasons I stayed with Kung Fu was because 00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:33.980 I was working in parenting and I knew that I've 00:18:33.980 --> 00:18:36.079 always loved dance, but I knew that if I went 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:39.019 to dance and I've tried, I couldn't make half 00:18:39.019 --> 00:18:42.140 the lessons because I had kids to manage or I 00:18:42.140 --> 00:18:45.759 had to go to work or so I thought, well, at least 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:47.259 Kung Fu is something I've been doing so long. 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:50.720 I can miss, you know, a week or two and or a 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:53.279 lesson here or there and still do it to go to 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:55.549 something totally new. No matter what it is, 00:18:55.609 --> 00:18:57.750 for me, it was dance. Now you have to invest 00:18:57.750 --> 00:19:01.369 a whole different set of time. And I stayed where 00:19:01.369 --> 00:19:04.730 I was because life circumstances of being a mom 00:19:04.730 --> 00:19:08.029 and an employee, or in my case, self -employed, 00:19:08.029 --> 00:19:11.109 kind of kept me there. Yeah, it kind of, I made 00:19:11.109 --> 00:19:13.450 choices to stay there. I think there's another 00:19:13.450 --> 00:19:16.309 point that we could add to that of when you are 00:19:16.309 --> 00:19:18.829 so consumed with a certain period of your life. 00:19:19.210 --> 00:19:21.150 Learning and being curious about something can 00:19:21.150 --> 00:19:23.450 be an escape because learning something new is 00:19:23.450 --> 00:19:26.049 challenging. It puts you in a completely different 00:19:26.049 --> 00:19:29.589 mind frame from the normal day to day, from the 00:19:29.589 --> 00:19:32.349 having to explain why you need that seat at that 00:19:32.349 --> 00:19:34.789 table. You put yourself into a different environment. 00:19:34.970 --> 00:19:37.210 Well, you don't need to explain why you're here 00:19:37.210 --> 00:19:39.329 and everybody around you is supportive because 00:19:39.329 --> 00:19:42.210 they want you to learn this new skill or this 00:19:42.210 --> 00:19:45.200 new thing that you're trying to do. So it's taking 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:47.720 you out of the environment that you might feel 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:51.579 stuck in to a completely new, supportive, again, 00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:54.400 going back to that community that you can then 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:56.619 continue to grow. And you never know where that's 00:19:56.619 --> 00:19:58.920 going to take you. That's a good point. That 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.779 exactly describes when I got my master's degree 00:20:01.779 --> 00:20:04.400 and my children were 10 and 13. That's exactly 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.319 what happened. Aiko, what do you think? As I'm 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:08.940 listening to you guys, I'm really fascinated 00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:11.059 by it. But one thing I'm kind of struck by is 00:20:11.059 --> 00:20:13.250 like, When you talk about learning, you talked 00:20:13.250 --> 00:20:15.549 about maybe going for another degree or a new 00:20:15.549 --> 00:20:19.089 skill. Could there be some sort of passive learning, 00:20:19.150 --> 00:20:22.190 just like being aware? Because I'm thinking about 00:20:22.190 --> 00:20:25.789 people who are over capacity or maybe perhaps 00:20:25.789 --> 00:20:29.009 hitting a burnout stage in their career or something. 00:20:29.569 --> 00:20:32.990 I feel like taking on more and learning more 00:20:32.990 --> 00:20:35.750 perhaps might feel like a lot. And so is there 00:20:35.750 --> 00:20:39.019 a way to learn in a way that is... passive or 00:20:39.019 --> 00:20:40.799 do you think it always has to be this active 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:43.960 effort to try and partake in a new skill or new 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:47.009 thought? Yeah, I think going back to Nikki's 00:20:47.009 --> 00:20:49.589 example from COVID and having the running group, 00:20:49.730 --> 00:20:52.369 I think learning can also happen when we shed 00:20:52.369 --> 00:20:54.049 things. At least that has been my experience, 00:20:54.170 --> 00:20:56.150 right? When we make room, we kind of take a little 00:20:56.150 --> 00:20:58.549 bit off of our plate. And sometimes that passive 00:20:58.549 --> 00:21:00.950 learning, I think, can help us a lot. And I have 00:21:00.950 --> 00:21:02.950 found that through just connecting with other 00:21:02.950 --> 00:21:06.029 women. I decided to walk the Camino. I have MS. 00:21:06.250 --> 00:21:08.349 And so I decided I was going to walk the Camino. 00:21:08.509 --> 00:21:11.130 It's 100 miles. And once my MS was under control, 00:21:11.410 --> 00:21:14.339 I was going with a friend of mine. But I was 00:21:14.339 --> 00:21:15.700 not in shape. And the woman I was going with 00:21:15.700 --> 00:21:17.420 was 70. And I was like, all right, she can't 00:21:17.420 --> 00:21:19.299 show me up. So I started a walking group just 00:21:19.299 --> 00:21:21.259 with some women in my neighborhood. And to your 00:21:21.259 --> 00:21:24.220 point, Nikki, we go every morning at 530 in the 00:21:24.220 --> 00:21:27.019 morning. And I would never have done that. We 00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:28.960 had our year anniversary yesterday. And it's 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:31.519 cold here. It's 21 degrees. But I have learned 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.299 so much more from that group of women. There's 00:21:34.299 --> 00:21:36.579 a grandmother. There's a new mom. The advice 00:21:36.579 --> 00:21:38.220 they give back and forth, it reminds me of that 00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:41.119 idea of like, it takes a village. So yes, I have 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:43.339 gone through formal schooling and all that. A 00:21:43.339 --> 00:21:45.500 lot of the passive learning just through conversation, 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.799 camaraderie, commiserating, right? All those 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:50.680 are forms of learning. It doesn't have to come 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:53.339 with a degree, at least in my experience. I learn 00:21:53.339 --> 00:21:55.559 more outside of the classroom, I think. You know, 00:21:55.579 --> 00:21:59.079 and sometimes inserting ourselves into other 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.119 groups of people, whether they're social groups 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:04.259 or whether they're groups that might support 00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:07.599 our careers or other, like I had to learn a whole 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:10.319 new dance community and group. It can be scary. 00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:13.500 That can be uncomfortable. for us in itself. 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:16.319 And getting past that fear is a learning experience. 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:18.700 And then what we learn is even better from that. 00:22:18.859 --> 00:22:20.759 I think you say you'd learn a lot when you're 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:22.759 doing that as well. You learn a lot about yourself 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:25.640 when you put yourself into new environments as 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:28.000 well. Do you think community informs identity? 00:22:28.299 --> 00:22:30.819 And if it does, how do you think it does that? 00:22:31.180 --> 00:22:32.799 Tossing it over to one of Andrew's questions. 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.259 I would love to take this question on really 00:22:36.259 --> 00:22:41.740 quick. For those on audio only. So I think, so 00:22:41.740 --> 00:22:45.099 I am Asian American. I'm Japanese American. And 00:22:45.099 --> 00:22:48.720 I grew up in a primarily American, like, sorry, 00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:50.960 white American neighborhood when I was younger. 00:22:51.140 --> 00:22:55.019 I was the only Japanese person there. And it's 00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:58.619 very interesting because my parents, I'm first 00:22:58.619 --> 00:23:01.400 generation. So my parents are here from Japan. 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.500 And I'm the first one born in the States. And 00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:06.700 so they have a really, really heavy Japanese 00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:10.660 community that supported them. And then after 00:23:10.660 --> 00:23:13.200 that, I grew up and kind of like learned how 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:16.880 to be a kid and a very, very separate, like white 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:21.400 American westernized community. For the longest 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:24.819 time, my primary struggle was when I'm in this 00:23:24.819 --> 00:23:26.980 community, I behave like this. And when I'm in 00:23:26.980 --> 00:23:28.819 this community, I behave like that. Because who 00:23:28.819 --> 00:23:31.759 you're supposed to be as a young girl, as a woman, 00:23:31.900 --> 00:23:35.759 as a student, the expectations are so different. 00:23:36.220 --> 00:23:39.119 And the one thing that was like core to me was 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:41.200 that I tend to be very like people pleasing. 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:44.390 So I want to be the best version of a. very outspoken, 00:23:44.410 --> 00:23:47.650 interesting, individualistic person when I'm 00:23:47.650 --> 00:23:49.970 at school because my teachers are like, well 00:23:49.970 --> 00:23:53.029 done. I hear you a lot. But then when I go back 00:23:53.029 --> 00:23:55.029 to my Japanese community, I was like, I'm doing 00:23:55.029 --> 00:23:57.650 fine. I don't need anything. Thank you. What 00:23:57.650 --> 00:23:59.410 can I do for you? Because I want to be a good 00:23:59.410 --> 00:24:03.119 Japanese girl, you know? So once I was kind of 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:05.319 out of these institutions and I was supposed 00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:08.819 to figure out who I was, am I neither of those? 00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:11.539 Am I both of those? What do you do when those 00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:15.700 two expectations compete? I think that really 00:24:15.700 --> 00:24:18.480 was my turning point to actually answer that 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:21.380 question for me, at least to say, wow, who you're 00:24:21.380 --> 00:24:24.559 around, the conversations that you hear, the 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.180 ways that people are attracted to you, your energy, 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.559 your conversation that really informs like. That 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.900 either highlights or delights kind of what's 00:24:32.900 --> 00:24:35.440 kind of in the middle or inside of you. I do 00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.160 a lot of physical, which is not good for an audio 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:42.700 format. But yeah, so for me, that was a really, 00:24:42.740 --> 00:24:47.160 really big yes moment for I'm very, very impacted 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:50.059 by who I'm around. Who am I when I'm by myself? 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:54.619 I think that's a great example. Yes. So I'm going 00:24:54.619 --> 00:24:59.880 to share a quite personal story. My auntie adopted 00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:04.599 two girls from Sri Lanka and my cousin has this 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:08.019 week been in Sri Lanka to find her biological 00:25:08.019 --> 00:25:12.200 family because she wasn't too sure what her identity 00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:15.720 was. So she was adopted when I think she was 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.660 three, came across to France because my auntie 00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:20.859 lives in France. Obviously my auntie is English, 00:25:20.900 --> 00:25:24.559 so has grown up in a French environment with 00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:28.170 an English mother. So had that hybrid mix of 00:25:28.170 --> 00:25:32.069 both countries. But then is Sri Lankan and has 00:25:32.069 --> 00:25:35.210 really struggled with her identity. Like what 00:25:35.210 --> 00:25:38.869 is she meant to be in this Western world? And 00:25:38.869 --> 00:25:41.210 yeah, as I say, is literally flying back as we 00:25:41.210 --> 00:25:43.890 speak. Having just met her biological mother, 00:25:43.930 --> 00:25:45.990 father and found out she's got a brother and 00:25:45.990 --> 00:25:48.119 sister. So it's going to be really interesting 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:52.319 to see what that discovery does to her and where 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.640 she sees her place in this world. Because that's 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.119 a lot to discover and a lot to then fit into 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:04.900 a white French -British family. So I think it 00:26:04.900 --> 00:26:07.980 has a massive impact. The community, the people 00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:11.619 that you're around massively shake who you are. 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:14.619 And then it's whether you choose to embrace, 00:26:14.779 --> 00:26:17.670 for example, my cousin. If she chooses to embrace 00:26:17.670 --> 00:26:21.029 her Sri Lankan family, what's that going to bring 00:26:21.029 --> 00:26:23.369 to her life? Now, secretly, I'm hoping for the 00:26:23.369 --> 00:26:28.609 recipes. I want the food. I mean, I'm sure there's 00:26:28.609 --> 00:26:30.069 a lot more to it, but I'm looking forward to 00:26:30.069 --> 00:26:34.549 the food. Oh, I mean, yeah, that's beautiful, 00:26:35.029 --> 00:26:36.630 Nikki. Thank you for sharing. Also, I want to 00:26:36.630 --> 00:26:40.289 offer if she ever needs anyone to talk to who's 00:26:40.289 --> 00:26:42.589 gone through a similar. I think what's interesting 00:26:42.589 --> 00:26:45.150 about what you said is like who. she's going 00:26:45.150 --> 00:26:48.190 to be and it's this idea that like we're supposed 00:26:48.190 --> 00:26:51.150 to settle into something or we're hoping to find 00:26:51.150 --> 00:26:53.829 something to be like oh yes like this this is 00:26:53.829 --> 00:26:56.170 the mold i want to fit into and it's kind of 00:26:56.170 --> 00:26:58.670 scary but true to remember the fact that we're 00:26:58.670 --> 00:27:02.029 organic beings and that we don't ever stop changing 00:27:02.029 --> 00:27:04.730 or moving or being a part of something i wasn't 00:27:04.730 --> 00:27:07.130 a part of this community until today and now 00:27:07.609 --> 00:27:09.630 You guys have changed my path and you guys have 00:27:09.630 --> 00:27:12.190 changed my organic being. And tomorrow, maybe 00:27:12.190 --> 00:27:14.869 I'll meet someone new and we shed our skin cells 00:27:14.869 --> 00:27:17.849 and we change our brains, you know, spaces. And 00:27:17.849 --> 00:27:20.630 so we're always like moving and ebbing and flowing. 00:27:20.730 --> 00:27:23.410 And I think that can be scary because the who 00:27:23.410 --> 00:27:26.190 am I question will never be answered. But also 00:27:26.190 --> 00:27:28.549 kind of comforting to know that, you know, am 00:27:28.549 --> 00:27:32.109 I chasing a goal that I don't need to be chasing? 00:27:32.170 --> 00:27:33.990 And could I just settle into the fact that I'm. 00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:36.619 ever changing, you know, because my identity 00:27:36.619 --> 00:27:39.460 for as being Japanese American is so different 00:27:39.460 --> 00:27:41.880 being Japanese American in America, and being 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.220 Japanese American in England, where I don't think 00:27:45.220 --> 00:27:47.019 anyone cares about the fact that I'm Japanese, 00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:48.720 but they're really fascinated about what's going 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:51.779 on in the States, you know. And I'm like, gosh, 00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:53.720 I don't know if I can speak to that. There's 00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:57.059 actually a name for what Nikki and I both described. 00:27:57.099 --> 00:27:59.599 And we studied this. It's called third culture 00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:02.440 kids. So it's students who are like twice removed 00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:06.549 from their you know, original culture. So it's 00:28:06.549 --> 00:28:08.630 really fascinating. And I think it helps us think 00:28:08.630 --> 00:28:11.990 about, you know, are we intrinsically who we 00:28:11.990 --> 00:28:14.130 are, as Aiko said, ever, you know, always changing? 00:28:14.470 --> 00:28:17.130 Or are we more shaped by those communities that 00:28:17.130 --> 00:28:19.349 we're in? So I guess it can be an and both, right? 00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:23.750 Now, I'm interested. Do you want it to ever finish? 00:28:24.089 --> 00:28:26.509 Or do you want to continuously change? Like we 00:28:26.509 --> 00:28:29.390 said earlier, it's kind of scary. Which is scarier, 00:28:29.410 --> 00:28:33.299 being stuck or continuously changing? For me, 00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:35.640 it's definitely being stuck. I love learning. 00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:38.299 I'm a huge proponent of continuous learning. 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:40.279 I feel like we can model that for our children, 00:28:40.460 --> 00:28:44.900 for people who we might mentor. So I think when 00:28:44.900 --> 00:28:46.759 we stop learning, that's when it gets a little 00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:48.740 bit scary. And I think that's where you can definitely 00:28:48.740 --> 00:28:51.759 find yourself stuck. I'm with Meg on that one. 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.819 I think it would be more difficult and scarier 00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:58.180 to be stuck. And especially since a lot of times 00:28:58.180 --> 00:29:00.019 when we're stuck, we become more and more unhappy. 00:29:00.299 --> 00:29:04.680 Being stuck doesn't... doesn't encourage happiness. 00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:07.619 It doesn't foster happiness. Typically, if we're 00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:09.960 saying the word stuck, that's not a positive 00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:13.359 word. And so no, I realized. Yeah, but but that's 00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:16.180 a that's a good word because we're not stuck 00:29:16.180 --> 00:29:18.619 if we're happy and in a place we want to be. 00:29:18.740 --> 00:29:21.359 We're stuck when we're in a place we don't want 00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:24.019 to be and we're stuck there. So I think that's 00:29:24.019 --> 00:29:26.440 scarier to me. But again, I think it has a lot 00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:29.119 to do with the people that are around us and 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:32.940 our relationships and and. well, if I change 00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:35.019 this, then I will lose that person. I'll never 00:29:35.019 --> 00:29:37.440 see them again. Good friends at work, family 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:39.900 members, et cetera. It just keeps going. You 00:29:39.900 --> 00:29:41.880 just reminded me of something I never thought 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.339 about. I am also a first generation American 00:29:44.339 --> 00:29:47.519 on my dad's side. And my dad was French Canadian. 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:50.440 And he just, even though my mom came from French 00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:52.400 Canadian, she'd been born in the United States 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:54.759 and was raised in the United States. And I think 00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:56.940 the - The difference between the two of them 00:29:56.940 --> 00:29:59.460 was like night and day. Yeah, personality, but 00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:02.579 even just their whole value of their life experience 00:30:02.579 --> 00:30:05.099 and their value for learning and education. And 00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:08.079 it was my father who instilled in me from a very 00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:11.279 young age, learn, learn, learn. Because and even 00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:13.660 as a woman, he's like, people can take anything 00:30:13.660 --> 00:30:15.940 away from you, but they can't take away what's 00:30:15.940 --> 00:30:18.180 in your mind. They can't take away what you've 00:30:18.180 --> 00:30:20.220 learned. And I'll never forget him. He's told 00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:22.720 me that when I was a little girl. So I don't 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:25.819 know if that was. just typical to his experience 00:30:25.819 --> 00:30:28.319 in the world. But he was a self -taught man. 00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:31.000 I'm reflecting kind of on what you were just 00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:33.200 saying about, you know, how stuck is not a bad 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:35.839 word. And I had this visual in my head about 00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:38.619 like things are only something is like there's 00:30:38.619 --> 00:30:40.940 two edges. Right. And if you're trying to remove 00:30:40.940 --> 00:30:42.960 and it can't and you want to remove it, then 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:45.920 it's stuck. But if you are trying to remove and 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:47.299 you don't want to remove it, then it's secure 00:30:47.299 --> 00:30:51.660 and it's the same, you know, joint. And so I 00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:54.470 think like. As we think a little bit about identities 00:30:54.470 --> 00:30:57.589 and how we define it, because I know that there's 00:30:57.589 --> 00:30:59.289 some identities that I don't want to move. I'm 00:30:59.289 --> 00:31:01.329 proud of the fact that I'm a daughter. I'm proud 00:31:01.329 --> 00:31:03.849 of the fact that I'm a sister. Those are identities 00:31:03.849 --> 00:31:07.150 I think are really secure for me that I don't 00:31:07.150 --> 00:31:09.529 want to ever change and won't ever. And then 00:31:09.529 --> 00:31:11.309 there's some that I think I find a lot of comfort 00:31:11.309 --> 00:31:14.349 in the fact that it's abstract and nuanced. So 00:31:14.349 --> 00:31:17.589 I think a lot of my takeaway from this conversation 00:31:17.589 --> 00:31:22.109 from you incredible ladies is Finding those pieces 00:31:22.109 --> 00:31:25.029 that, to your point, serve you and that you feel 00:31:25.029 --> 00:31:27.630 proud of and that you feel like elevate who you 00:31:27.630 --> 00:31:31.170 want to be and then other elements of your identity 00:31:31.170 --> 00:31:34.630 that are perhaps transient and temporary and 00:31:34.630 --> 00:31:36.890 might be part of something. I love that take 00:31:36.890 --> 00:31:39.569 on it. I think that's brilliant. Yeah. Yes, that's 00:31:39.569 --> 00:31:42.569 going to make me go away and reflect on what 00:31:42.569 --> 00:31:45.970 am I happy, what parts of my identity am I happy 00:31:45.970 --> 00:31:48.130 with? So I love how you framed that. Thank you. 00:31:48.589 --> 00:31:51.990 I agree. So what would we suggest for people 00:31:51.990 --> 00:31:55.009 who want to understand their own identities better 00:31:55.009 --> 00:31:57.650 and what they can shed and then what they want 00:31:57.650 --> 00:32:00.250 to hold on to? I think most of the pain around 00:32:00.250 --> 00:32:02.990 changing identities or moving into something 00:32:02.990 --> 00:32:05.890 new is the fact that we feel like we're losing 00:32:05.890 --> 00:32:09.670 a version of ourselves. And if we can think about 00:32:09.670 --> 00:32:14.759 the umbrella concept that Aiko talked about or 00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.859 the fact that we can be continuous learners that 00:32:17.859 --> 00:32:19.359 Meg talked about and we're constantly evolving 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:24.220 and changing, it softens that fear because the 00:32:24.220 --> 00:32:27.140 version of ourself is ideally who we want to 00:32:27.140 --> 00:32:31.279 be and what's in our heart and soul and how we 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:34.319 want to move on in the world. And it's not necessarily 00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.569 what somebody else has defined. for us and if 00:32:37.569 --> 00:32:40.869 we can hone in on that and be flexible and fluid 00:32:40.869 --> 00:32:42.910 came up a lot in the early in this conversation 00:32:42.910 --> 00:32:45.349 i think i think it's easy a little easier to 00:32:45.349 --> 00:32:48.869 make that shift outside of the version instead 00:32:48.869 --> 00:32:50.490 of saying we're losing a version of ourselves 00:32:50.490 --> 00:32:53.430 we're gaining a new version of ourselves to add 00:32:53.430 --> 00:32:57.130 to the version you know we're moving beyond like 00:32:57.130 --> 00:33:00.069 that i wonder if it's like to extend on that 00:33:00.069 --> 00:33:03.769 slightly taking that step back from identity 00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:08.079 and looking more at your values. So Aiko, you 00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:09.700 mentioned about you love the fact that you're 00:33:09.700 --> 00:33:11.619 a daughter, you love the fact that you're a sister. 00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:14.440 So is that your family values coming through 00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:17.960 and that's what makes you part of your identity? 00:33:18.500 --> 00:33:21.200 For me, one of my values is continuous learning. 00:33:21.420 --> 00:33:24.640 So that's where part of my identity is doing 00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:27.140 my master's currently, continuing to do this, 00:33:27.299 --> 00:33:29.880 exploring that. So I think maybe taking that 00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:33.559 step back to what are your values and then how 00:33:33.559 --> 00:33:36.690 you... show that to the world, how you put that 00:33:36.690 --> 00:33:39.849 across in your identity? That's a really, really 00:33:39.849 --> 00:33:43.450 good point. That's powerful. Because I almost 00:33:43.450 --> 00:33:45.710 feel like you just hit the core of it. That's 00:33:45.710 --> 00:33:49.269 who we are. It's our value. It's how we define 00:33:49.269 --> 00:33:52.549 ourselves and what we stand for. And that shapes 00:33:52.549 --> 00:33:55.450 what we choose. And if we're in alignment with 00:33:55.450 --> 00:33:58.509 our values, then maybe that shift to a different 00:33:58.509 --> 00:34:01.809 identity is okay. You're under the same umbrella. 00:34:01.869 --> 00:34:05.319 Yes. Yes. Yes. Will you ask the question, Meg? 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:07.500 I'm curious about what your final takeaway is. 00:34:08.019 --> 00:34:11.639 Which question? What's that I go about? Which 00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:13.900 ones we want? What's our final takeaway? What 00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:16.579 would you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm with Nikki. 00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:20.559 I think as long as you are locked in in a good 00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:24.170 way to. what you really care about and who intrinsically 00:34:24.170 --> 00:34:28.429 you feel you are. I think that what you do and 00:34:28.429 --> 00:34:30.429 what shifts you make and what you learn next 00:34:30.429 --> 00:34:33.329 is kind of irrelevant. I think we all discovered 00:34:33.329 --> 00:34:35.670 our identities are kind of fluid changing. It 00:34:35.670 --> 00:34:37.889 depends on what circles we're in and what we're 00:34:37.889 --> 00:34:39.889 talking about when it comes to identity. But 00:34:39.889 --> 00:34:42.190 I think it's being open to the fact that it's 00:34:42.190 --> 00:34:45.730 going to change. It also might stay the same 00:34:45.730 --> 00:34:48.469 and that's okay too. Well, it's been amazing 00:34:48.469 --> 00:34:51.320 talking to you all. So thank you very much. You 00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:53.679 as well. Yeah, thank you. This was exciting. 00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:55.659 Thank you. Yeah, it's been a great conversation. 00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:59.360 What a great episode. As our guest mentioned, 00:34:59.539 --> 00:35:02.420 understanding the fluidity of identity can empower 00:35:02.420 --> 00:35:05.320 us to redefine ourselves in ways that align with 00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:08.280 our current values and aspirations. A massive 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.739 thank you to Susan, Megan, Nikki, and Aiko for 00:35:10.739 --> 00:35:12.840 their insight into this topic and for their time 00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:15.659 in making this a brilliant recording. I know 00:35:15.659 --> 00:35:17.539 you want to connect with them afterwards, and 00:35:17.539 --> 00:35:19.579 their details are in the show notes, along with 00:35:19.579 --> 00:35:21.519 information about how to connect with us here 00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:24.000 at Women Talking About Learning. Remember to 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:26.199 like and subscribe to the podcast on your podcast 00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:28.880 player. It does make a real difference in helping 00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:31.820 people find and recommend us. We are looking 00:35:31.820 --> 00:35:34.420 for guests to be on this wonderful podcast, and 00:35:34.420 --> 00:35:36.800 if you're interested, then please do get in touch 00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:42.309 via hello at lan .com. We're back in a couple 00:35:42.309 --> 00:35:45.429 of weeks and next time it's the return to work 00:35:45.429 --> 00:35:49.389 one. As always, thank you for listening and we'll 00:35:49.389 --> 00:35:50.289 see you again soon.