Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the
Identity One of the Women Talking About Learning
podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. In today's fast -paced
world, many of us find ourselves trapped in specific
identities that no longer serve us. This phenomenon,
known as identity lock -in, can lead to feelings
of stagnation and dissatisfaction. We have four
wonderful guests to share their insights on this
topic, exploring how we can break free from these
constraints and redefine ourselves. Our first
guest is Susan Fitzell. An international speaker
and author, Susan brings decades of expertise
in fostering human potential to educational and
business communities worldwide. Having been diagnosed
with neurodivergence concurrently with her child,
Susan offers deep personal insights into dyslexia,
ADHD, autism and auditory processing disorder.
Our second guest is Dr. Megan Waldron. A lifelong
dreamer, Megan inspires students to share their
stories, building confidence through hands -on
writing, reflection and honest feedback. More
recently, she's encouraging female leaders to
do the same through her work with Women in Change
USA. Our next guest is Nikki Hobson. Nikki is
a learning specialist at the BBC and is an experienced
learning designer who's worked across the private,
public and voluntary sectors. She's also a smartphone
videographer and trainer who helps others create
great video with their smartphones. Our final
guest is Aiko Sato. Aiko works with people and
organisations to understand how learning, culture
and behaviour evolve together over time. She
often acts as a bridge between ideas and practice,
helping insights travel from learning spaces
into real situations. Recorded in January of
2026, this is Women Talking About Learning. This
is Susan, Megan, Nikki, and Aiko talking about
identity. Hello, everyone. It's so exciting to
see all of you. You know, I was doing research
on this topic, the identity one. Like, I know
how I felt when I... When I decided to say, yeah,
that's a good one for me, this topic. But I wasn't
sure if my perspective was common or something
other people think about. And I learned something
I'd never heard before. Do you know that there
is a word for being stuck in an identity? And
it's called identity lock -in. Nikki, have you
ever heard of that? Identity lock -in. No, I've
not. But I'm very, very intrigued. I would assume
that it is when you... But yeah, I can't wait
to hear more about that. Okay. Anybody else?
Meg, did you ever heard of it? Aiko? I've never
heard of it, but I think it's a common thing
that a lot of people experience, especially mid
-career. You know, you've been somewhere for
a long time. You're comfortable in that spot.
And as my students would say, they're locked
in, right? But I think we can also find ourselves
somewhat stuck and we forget where we start and
our identity begins and vice versa. So I could
definitely see how that happens. Exactly. That's
exactly what it is. Yeah. Did somebody else have
something? No, it's really interesting that that's
kind of the commonality. Because when you said
that just now, Susan, I was like, what? That
sounds ridiculous. Because I often find myself,
and the reason why I was curious about this topic
is I'm always trying to figure out what is my
identity. And I'm always talking about how identities
are so fluid and intersectional. We're a part
of so many different types of selves at once.
So the idea of an identity lock -in for me sounds
really scary. But what was kind of the conversation
around it? I'm curious. Same, exactly, exactly
what you're all saying is you get locked into
an identity and women are more often challenged
to get out of it than men and other genders.
It's just being locked into an identity. We're
kind of conditioned as women to, you know, play
nice, be nice, be loyal, stay with something.
And even if it's no longer serving us or causing
us to lose, you know, ourselves. And we feel
like if we do lose, if we do change our identity,
we might be losing that version of ourselves,
which is really difficult for people, especially
women, who we build this identity around who
we are. Susan, I'm intrigued on what the research
said. So is that we get... locked in an identity
at work or at home or in our social lives? Do
we change our identities and they become locked
in in that situation? Or is it a general whole
identity? In what I was looking at, it happens
at various periods of your life and it can happen
in different roles. You know, and that for me,
I'll just say my little bit for me, I studied
Kung Fu for 30 years. I probably should have
stopped studying Kung Fu 15, 10 to 15 years earlier.
But Kung Fu is such a part of my identity that,
and I remember saying, I can't, I can't separate
from this. It's so much. And my license plate
on my car says Kung Fu. It still says Kung Fu.
But when it was no longer serving me, when because
of age and other limitations, I could no longer
grow in Kung Fu. I couldn't advance. I couldn't
do what I wanted to do anymore. Like as far as
what my own goals were in the, in the art. I
had such a hard time leaving and it took a crisis,
a kind of a very toxic event to finally say,
OK, I'm done with this and I'll go to what I
love, which was ballroom dance. That's one part
of my life. And the reason I chose this podcast
was I'm in another part of that. But I don't
want to I don't want to monetize the conversation.
So I'm monopolized. That's the word. I wonder
what what you think, Meg, because you had a lot
to say about it. You seem to know about it. Well,
I. I was a high school teacher by trade and moved
into higher ed a few years ago. And so I'm wondering
if this is a learned behavior, especially now
in the university world. I work with students
every day that just struggle. They vacillate.
I'm pre -med. I have to be pre -med. Ever since
I was four, I knew I wanted to be a doctor. And
their heart is really might be leaning towards
a completely different career. So sometimes I
wonder, is this something where, you know, this
is a learned behavior where you feel like you
have to lock in because you have those external
pressures? In addition, maybe to how you also
identify yourself. I don't know. Thoughts, Aiko?
You think it's a learned behavior or is it the
pressure we put on ourselves? Well, it's kind
of interesting because I used to work with elementary
school kids. And I mean, I'm inclined to say
it's a learned behavior because even as in a
kindergarten, first grade, you kind of ask them,
like, what's your favorite color? What do you
want to be when you grow up? Who do you, you
know, we try to get these like characteristics
placed on. And I know it's so that we can learn
different facts about them. But I think, you
know. That plus this idea that we have to be
like really, really excellent at something in
order for it to count or be worthwhile. So I
think we start to develop this sunk cost fallacy
of, well, I've already spent so much time on
this. And if I'm going to do something here or
do something there, then I can't spend as much
if it's not going to be 100 percent worth doing.
You know, like, is it OK to do something poorly
or be something, you know, halfheartedly? And
I think we get kind of scared of that. But I
do think that that is a social model because
when you look at younger kids or when you look
at people also past retirement age, sometimes
the freedom of kind of stepping outside the societal
confines allows people to be more playful. So
I don't know. What do you think, Nikki? I think
you're right. I think it starts with that learnt
behavior. I think there's a lot of things that
we develop as a child, like I want to do this.
feeds through to university as in oh I've committed
to a three -year degree I've got to keep with
this and then I think it becomes that social
pressure and I'd say external pressure obligation
maybe that you kind of have to stick at it especially
like if we use the example of a degree You've
probably been funded and supported by your family
or your friends. If you then, at the end of that
degree, turn around and go, oh no, I don't want
to be a doctor, for example, are you then, or
do you then feel like you're going to let people
down? So that's probably where the lock -in comes
in because there's that pressure. So I think
it's probably a bit of both. And it's then, do
you have, I say the courage, I think that's probably
the right word, the courage to break that. And
again, if we stick to that university example,
when you're 21, 22, telling your parents, no,
I don't want to do this. That's a really brave
thing to do. I think there's also a way to change
the narrative a little bit, because I heard you
say, Nikki, that, you know, you have to come
to this breaking point, right? Or Susan, you
said that it was something kind of catastrophic
that made you pivot. But I also heard you say,
Susan, that you had those transferable skills.
While I wouldn't want to meet you in a back alley
with 30 years of Kung Fu, right? You said that
you're able to kind of pivot that to be a salsa
dancer. And so I think what I always like to
talk with students and particularly also with
women is that a lot of the skills we have are
transferable. So our identity is fundamental,
but those skills and traits can transfer into
other professions, other areas. Yeah, I think
that's true. And for me in ballroom, I've. I
found that, you know, I'm doing dance sport.
I had to stay competing because I needed goals.
And I wanted to have all that, the benefits of
partner dancing, et cetera. So anyway, for me,
it was looking at my life. I'm like, how many
years do I have left? See, I am that person at
retirement age. And that's my new identity challenge.
Who are you after work? And I think for most
of us, that's a big part of it. Work. What we
do with our relationship, like we have a significant
relationship for most of our years. And then
the other one is maybe our hobbies. How do we
have invested so much in a hobby or in a lifetime
activity? And how do we move past that? And some
of them are inevitable, like having children
and they grow up and they leave the nest. You
can't stop that identity change from mother to
now empty nester. But some you can have a choice
for. And that's where we get locked in, even
when it no longer serves us. like the college
kid. That's a really good example. No longer
serves me to be in this profession, but I feel
like I have to because, and there could be a
myriad of reasons. Yeah. I work with a lot of
coaches, life coaches, career coaches. And so
they, one of the core tenants around that is
this. broadening of definitions um and so it's
it's really always and i think that's kind of
why i got so caught on like the idea that identity
is so fluid because in one mind like going from
kung fu to ballroom for example feels like two
transitions you could have put an umbrella on
say like i'm somebody who loves to use my body
and i love to be physical and i love you know
like that didn't change, you know, and so or
I'm someone who loves to be curious. And so there
are different ways to compartmentalize things.
But I also think that there's also some core
aspects that perhaps don't change. And I wonder,
yeah, how does that fit into this conversation?
I don't know. How does that land? Oh, I think
it's very valid because when you said it's put
it under the umbrella, I just had a light bulb
go off and like, oh, right. That's really not
like totally changing. You reframe it. What did
Megan and Nikki think about that? I think it's
brilliant. As you were talking... Oh, go ahead,
Nikki. It reminded me... Sorry, I called on two
of you. It reminded me of... You mentioned earlier
about Kung Fu not serving you anymore. Well,
I'm going to mention that dreaded C word of COVID.
So before COVID, I ran a lot, but I... Then stopped.
And I couldn't figure out why. And like you were
saying earlier, I felt like I'd lost part of
myself and part of my identity because I met
a lot of people through running. It became a
really sociable thing. During COVID, that stopped.
I started running again after COVID. I stupidly
signed up for a marathon, then had to keep going
out. I didn't do it. I stopped. But I kept thinking,
why don't I enjoy this anymore? Where is this?
gone and taking that step back and like you say
looking at that umbrella I realized it wasn't
running necessarily that kept me going back every
week it was the people and it was the social
element so I think taking a step back and reflecting
on why was this such a big part of my identity
well it was that connection with other people
That was what it was that drew me to that hobby.
Not necessarily the moving of my body or the
fitness. I mean, that's an added bonus, but it
was the, I see the same people every week. We
have a coffee, we have a ketchup. That was the
thing that I was missing. And obviously during
lockdown, we all missed that. So yeah, I think
looking for that umbrella is a really interesting
way of looking at identity. Do you think this
is something that fundamentally just impacts
women? Or do you think that men experience these
shifts in identity, these identity crises? Thoughts
on that? I'm sure they do. It's whether they
talk about it as openly as we do. That's fair.
Yeah. Well, I think they do. I know my husband
has, you know, when he had to change his careers.
But it's a little bit different. I think it's
a little... My opinion, it's harder for women
because we're taught to be loyal and nice and
grateful and not rock the boat. And a lot of
times when we want to change our identity, we
may not be able to be loyal anymore. It may not
feel nice to the people looking on our social
network because you're right. That's a big part
of what I do because I'm an extrovert. I want
to be around people. And Kung Fu is a lot about
people. And right now my work is a lot about
who the who if I change what I do for a living.
Who am I and who are my friends and who do I
socialize with and how do I do blah, blah, blah
that I do now? So but I think that we're taught
that leaving means that we failed or we quit
or we're ungrateful for the people who did X,
Y, Z to get us where we are or we're selfish.
So we stay. And I'm not sure men have all those
same pressures. I think it can also depend on
the industry you're in. So I worked with pre
-nursing students for a long time. They did a
lot of informational interviews with nursing
staff. I was a high school teacher for almost
15 years. And I know leaving professions that
are more vocational like that, there's just a
tremendous amount of guilt, I think, when you
shed that identity, even if you're moving into
a very similar field. So I think it comes not
only, you know, it's not only dependent on gender,
but also what area you're in. Could be. I mean,
it's funny that three of us, Nikki, have you
ever worked with students? Not higher ed or education.
No, I work with adults. Okay. But three of us
are teachers in K -12, which is really kind of
interesting that three of us are in this room
and we all have similar backgrounds. I have kind
of a hot take, and I'm curious to see what your
guys' reaction to it around identity and gender.
Sometimes I think, and this is a personal reflection,
I use the comfort of labeling my identities as
almost like validation for why I choose to do
something or how I approach something. Sometimes
I think that for men, given the space of privilege
that they're in, just being a man is enough in
a space. You know, I'm at the gym. Men work out.
You know, I'm at this certain role. at this company,
men are bosses, you know, the man of the house,
that kind of thing. And so I feel like sometimes
when I give a justification by saying, well,
this is my tendency, this is important to me,
it's almost like I have to validate why I'm taking
up space or why I'm saying something in a certain
way. Not to say that that's all that identities
serve, but I do find that that is a comfort that
I have. Yeah. And I think sometimes to that point,
I go, we have to explain our identity or why
we deserve space at that table where it might
come naturally to other people for sure. I'm
going to switch gears. I'm curious, Nikki, because
you work with adult learners. How do you think
learning plays into our identity and why is it
important for us to be continuous learners as
women? Oh, what a question. That's a great question.
Hard hitting on a Friday afternoon. It's only
10 a .m. here in the States. I'm on my first
cup of coffee. What a question. I'll recap. Why
should women keep learning? I would reframe that
to why should everybody keep learning? That's
fair. But we are on a podcast around women. But
I think it's coming back to that. We all hit
different stages of life. Like you say, Susan,
if you have children, that does then impact.
Well, it consumes your entire life. So at that
point, you start learning about different things.
I feel like learning for me is critical for our
minds and our brains and our souls. If we're
not learning, we're stagnating. And as women,
that can seriously have a negative impact on
our identity because. Our identity from our early
years is often told, it's defined by what's around
us and what we do and who we are and how we relate
to other people, how caring and helpful and womanly
we are. So if we're not still learning about
other things that help us feel like, hey, I'm
capable, I'm empowered, I can learn, I can do
different things, then we really have to ask,
who are we? I think to expand on that, Susan,
I think if... We don't continue to learn. It's
very easy to get boxed in, to get locked in.
You take a certain role at certain points of
your life. And as I said earlier, it can become
consuming. So if you're not continuously learning,
continuously reading about things, trying new
things, then when you do get the example we used
earlier with the empty nest, that can feel really
lonely. So I think that continuous learning is
the, oh God, when are the kids going? I can't
wait for the kids to go because I want to do
this and I can't do it yet and things like that.
It just keeps us going at different phases of
our lives. That's interesting because one of
the reasons I stayed with Kung Fu was because
I was working in parenting and I knew that I've
always loved dance, but I knew that if I went
to dance and I've tried, I couldn't make half
the lessons because I had kids to manage or I
had to go to work or so I thought, well, at least
Kung Fu is something I've been doing so long.
I can miss, you know, a week or two and or a
lesson here or there and still do it to go to
something totally new. No matter what it is,
for me, it was dance. Now you have to invest
a whole different set of time. And I stayed where
I was because life circumstances of being a mom
and an employee, or in my case, self -employed,
kind of kept me there. Yeah, it kind of, I made
choices to stay there. I think there's another
point that we could add to that of when you are
so consumed with a certain period of your life.
Learning and being curious about something can
be an escape because learning something new is
challenging. It puts you in a completely different
mind frame from the normal day to day, from the
having to explain why you need that seat at that
table. You put yourself into a different environment.
Well, you don't need to explain why you're here
and everybody around you is supportive because
they want you to learn this new skill or this
new thing that you're trying to do. So it's taking
you out of the environment that you might feel
stuck in to a completely new, supportive, again,
going back to that community that you can then
continue to grow. And you never know where that's
going to take you. That's a good point. That
exactly describes when I got my master's degree
and my children were 10 and 13. That's exactly
what happened. Aiko, what do you think? As I'm
listening to you guys, I'm really fascinated
by it. But one thing I'm kind of struck by is
like, When you talk about learning, you talked
about maybe going for another degree or a new
skill. Could there be some sort of passive learning,
just like being aware? Because I'm thinking about
people who are over capacity or maybe perhaps
hitting a burnout stage in their career or something.
I feel like taking on more and learning more
perhaps might feel like a lot. And so is there
a way to learn in a way that is... passive or
do you think it always has to be this active
effort to try and partake in a new skill or new
thought? Yeah, I think going back to Nikki's
example from COVID and having the running group,
I think learning can also happen when we shed
things. At least that has been my experience,
right? When we make room, we kind of take a little
bit off of our plate. And sometimes that passive
learning, I think, can help us a lot. And I have
found that through just connecting with other
women. I decided to walk the Camino. I have MS.
And so I decided I was going to walk the Camino.
It's 100 miles. And once my MS was under control,
I was going with a friend of mine. But I was
not in shape. And the woman I was going with
was 70. And I was like, all right, she can't
show me up. So I started a walking group just
with some women in my neighborhood. And to your
point, Nikki, we go every morning at 530 in the
morning. And I would never have done that. We
had our year anniversary yesterday. And it's
cold here. It's 21 degrees. But I have learned
so much more from that group of women. There's
a grandmother. There's a new mom. The advice
they give back and forth, it reminds me of that
idea of like, it takes a village. So yes, I have
gone through formal schooling and all that. A
lot of the passive learning just through conversation,
camaraderie, commiserating, right? All those
are forms of learning. It doesn't have to come
with a degree, at least in my experience. I learn
more outside of the classroom, I think. You know,
and sometimes inserting ourselves into other
groups of people, whether they're social groups
or whether they're groups that might support
our careers or other, like I had to learn a whole
new dance community and group. It can be scary.
That can be uncomfortable. for us in itself.
And getting past that fear is a learning experience.
And then what we learn is even better from that.
I think you say you'd learn a lot when you're
doing that as well. You learn a lot about yourself
when you put yourself into new environments as
well. Do you think community informs identity?
And if it does, how do you think it does that?
Tossing it over to one of Andrew's questions.
I would love to take this question on really
quick. For those on audio only. So I think, so
I am Asian American. I'm Japanese American. And
I grew up in a primarily American, like, sorry,
white American neighborhood when I was younger.
I was the only Japanese person there. And it's
very interesting because my parents, I'm first
generation. So my parents are here from Japan.
And I'm the first one born in the States. And
so they have a really, really heavy Japanese
community that supported them. And then after
that, I grew up and kind of like learned how
to be a kid and a very, very separate, like white
American westernized community. For the longest
time, my primary struggle was when I'm in this
community, I behave like this. And when I'm in
this community, I behave like that. Because who
you're supposed to be as a young girl, as a woman,
as a student, the expectations are so different.
And the one thing that was like core to me was
that I tend to be very like people pleasing.
So I want to be the best version of a. very outspoken,
interesting, individualistic person when I'm
at school because my teachers are like, well
done. I hear you a lot. But then when I go back
to my Japanese community, I was like, I'm doing
fine. I don't need anything. Thank you. What
can I do for you? Because I want to be a good
Japanese girl, you know? So once I was kind of
out of these institutions and I was supposed
to figure out who I was, am I neither of those?
Am I both of those? What do you do when those
two expectations compete? I think that really
was my turning point to actually answer that
question for me, at least to say, wow, who you're
around, the conversations that you hear, the
ways that people are attracted to you, your energy,
your conversation that really informs like. That
either highlights or delights kind of what's
kind of in the middle or inside of you. I do
a lot of physical, which is not good for an audio
format. But yeah, so for me, that was a really,
really big yes moment for I'm very, very impacted
by who I'm around. Who am I when I'm by myself?
I think that's a great example. Yes. So I'm going
to share a quite personal story. My auntie adopted
two girls from Sri Lanka and my cousin has this
week been in Sri Lanka to find her biological
family because she wasn't too sure what her identity
was. So she was adopted when I think she was
three, came across to France because my auntie
lives in France. Obviously my auntie is English,
so has grown up in a French environment with
an English mother. So had that hybrid mix of
both countries. But then is Sri Lankan and has
really struggled with her identity. Like what
is she meant to be in this Western world? And
yeah, as I say, is literally flying back as we
speak. Having just met her biological mother,
father and found out she's got a brother and
sister. So it's going to be really interesting
to see what that discovery does to her and where
she sees her place in this world. Because that's
a lot to discover and a lot to then fit into
a white French -British family. So I think it
has a massive impact. The community, the people
that you're around massively shake who you are.
And then it's whether you choose to embrace,
for example, my cousin. If she chooses to embrace
her Sri Lankan family, what's that going to bring
to her life? Now, secretly, I'm hoping for the
recipes. I want the food. I mean, I'm sure there's
a lot more to it, but I'm looking forward to
the food. Oh, I mean, yeah, that's beautiful,
Nikki. Thank you for sharing. Also, I want to
offer if she ever needs anyone to talk to who's
gone through a similar. I think what's interesting
about what you said is like who. she's going
to be and it's this idea that like we're supposed
to settle into something or we're hoping to find
something to be like oh yes like this this is
the mold i want to fit into and it's kind of
scary but true to remember the fact that we're
organic beings and that we don't ever stop changing
or moving or being a part of something i wasn't
a part of this community until today and now
You guys have changed my path and you guys have
changed my organic being. And tomorrow, maybe
I'll meet someone new and we shed our skin cells
and we change our brains, you know, spaces. And
so we're always like moving and ebbing and flowing.
And I think that can be scary because the who
am I question will never be answered. But also
kind of comforting to know that, you know, am
I chasing a goal that I don't need to be chasing?
And could I just settle into the fact that I'm.
ever changing, you know, because my identity
for as being Japanese American is so different
being Japanese American in America, and being
Japanese American in England, where I don't think
anyone cares about the fact that I'm Japanese,
but they're really fascinated about what's going
on in the States, you know. And I'm like, gosh,
I don't know if I can speak to that. There's
actually a name for what Nikki and I both described.
And we studied this. It's called third culture
kids. So it's students who are like twice removed
from their you know, original culture. So it's
really fascinating. And I think it helps us think
about, you know, are we intrinsically who we
are, as Aiko said, ever, you know, always changing?
Or are we more shaped by those communities that
we're in? So I guess it can be an and both, right?
Now, I'm interested. Do you want it to ever finish?
Or do you want to continuously change? Like we
said earlier, it's kind of scary. Which is scarier,
being stuck or continuously changing? For me,
it's definitely being stuck. I love learning.
I'm a huge proponent of continuous learning.
I feel like we can model that for our children,
for people who we might mentor. So I think when
we stop learning, that's when it gets a little
bit scary. And I think that's where you can definitely
find yourself stuck. I'm with Meg on that one.
I think it would be more difficult and scarier
to be stuck. And especially since a lot of times
when we're stuck, we become more and more unhappy.
Being stuck doesn't... doesn't encourage happiness.
It doesn't foster happiness. Typically, if we're
saying the word stuck, that's not a positive
word. And so no, I realized. Yeah, but but that's
a that's a good word because we're not stuck
if we're happy and in a place we want to be.
We're stuck when we're in a place we don't want
to be and we're stuck there. So I think that's
scarier to me. But again, I think it has a lot
to do with the people that are around us and
our relationships and and. well, if I change
this, then I will lose that person. I'll never
see them again. Good friends at work, family
members, et cetera. It just keeps going. You
just reminded me of something I never thought
about. I am also a first generation American
on my dad's side. And my dad was French Canadian.
And he just, even though my mom came from French
Canadian, she'd been born in the United States
and was raised in the United States. And I think
the - The difference between the two of them
was like night and day. Yeah, personality, but
even just their whole value of their life experience
and their value for learning and education. And
it was my father who instilled in me from a very
young age, learn, learn, learn. Because and even
as a woman, he's like, people can take anything
away from you, but they can't take away what's
in your mind. They can't take away what you've
learned. And I'll never forget him. He's told
me that when I was a little girl. So I don't
know if that was. just typical to his experience
in the world. But he was a self -taught man.
I'm reflecting kind of on what you were just
saying about, you know, how stuck is not a bad
word. And I had this visual in my head about
like things are only something is like there's
two edges. Right. And if you're trying to remove
and it can't and you want to remove it, then
it's stuck. But if you are trying to remove and
you don't want to remove it, then it's secure
and it's the same, you know, joint. And so I
think like. As we think a little bit about identities
and how we define it, because I know that there's
some identities that I don't want to move. I'm
proud of the fact that I'm a daughter. I'm proud
of the fact that I'm a sister. Those are identities
I think are really secure for me that I don't
want to ever change and won't ever. And then
there's some that I think I find a lot of comfort
in the fact that it's abstract and nuanced. So
I think a lot of my takeaway from this conversation
from you incredible ladies is Finding those pieces
that, to your point, serve you and that you feel
proud of and that you feel like elevate who you
want to be and then other elements of your identity
that are perhaps transient and temporary and
might be part of something. I love that take
on it. I think that's brilliant. Yeah. Yes, that's
going to make me go away and reflect on what
am I happy, what parts of my identity am I happy
with? So I love how you framed that. Thank you.
I agree. So what would we suggest for people
who want to understand their own identities better
and what they can shed and then what they want
to hold on to? I think most of the pain around
changing identities or moving into something
new is the fact that we feel like we're losing
a version of ourselves. And if we can think about
the umbrella concept that Aiko talked about or
the fact that we can be continuous learners that
Meg talked about and we're constantly evolving
and changing, it softens that fear because the
version of ourself is ideally who we want to
be and what's in our heart and soul and how we
want to move on in the world. And it's not necessarily
what somebody else has defined. for us and if
we can hone in on that and be flexible and fluid
came up a lot in the early in this conversation
i think i think it's easy a little easier to
make that shift outside of the version instead
of saying we're losing a version of ourselves
we're gaining a new version of ourselves to add
to the version you know we're moving beyond like
that i wonder if it's like to extend on that
slightly taking that step back from identity
and looking more at your values. So Aiko, you
mentioned about you love the fact that you're
a daughter, you love the fact that you're a sister.
So is that your family values coming through
and that's what makes you part of your identity?
For me, one of my values is continuous learning.
So that's where part of my identity is doing
my master's currently, continuing to do this,
exploring that. So I think maybe taking that
step back to what are your values and then how
you... show that to the world, how you put that
across in your identity? That's a really, really
good point. That's powerful. Because I almost
feel like you just hit the core of it. That's
who we are. It's our value. It's how we define
ourselves and what we stand for. And that shapes
what we choose. And if we're in alignment with
our values, then maybe that shift to a different
identity is okay. You're under the same umbrella.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Will you ask the question, Meg?
I'm curious about what your final takeaway is.
Which question? What's that I go about? Which
ones we want? What's our final takeaway? What
would you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm with Nikki.
I think as long as you are locked in in a good
way to. what you really care about and who intrinsically
you feel you are. I think that what you do and
what shifts you make and what you learn next
is kind of irrelevant. I think we all discovered
our identities are kind of fluid changing. It
depends on what circles we're in and what we're
talking about when it comes to identity. But
I think it's being open to the fact that it's
going to change. It also might stay the same
and that's okay too. Well, it's been amazing
talking to you all. So thank you very much. You
as well. Yeah, thank you. This was exciting.
Thank you. Yeah, it's been a great conversation.
What a great episode. As our guest mentioned,
understanding the fluidity of identity can empower
us to redefine ourselves in ways that align with
our current values and aspirations. A massive
thank you to Susan, Megan, Nikki, and Aiko for
their insight into this topic and for their time
in making this a brilliant recording. I know
you want to connect with them afterwards, and
their details are in the show notes, along with
information about how to connect with us here
at Women Talking About Learning. Remember to
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of weeks and next time it's the return to work
one. As always, thank you for listening and we'll
see you again soon.