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on with the episode. Hello everyone and welcome
to this episode, the hybrid one of the Women
Talking About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs.
The landscape of hybrid work is evolving. And,
post -pandemic, it moved at pace. This presents
both challenges and opportunities around change
management, technology, and human connection.
So, obviously, we wanted to record an episode
about it. Our first guest is Sarah Estevez -Correz.
Sarah is a researcher in the Strategy and Entrepreneurship
group at the UCL School of Management, where
she focuses on the future of work, particularly
on the impact of flexible work arrangements on
collaboration practices and the influence of
workspace design and social norms on organisational
behaviour. Our second guest is Valerie Merrill.
Valerie is a seasoned training consultant with
more than three decades of experience designing,
delivering and managing learning programmes for
a diverse range of clients in both the public
and private sectors. Her reputation for excellence
is built on a foundation of referral and recommendation,
reflecting a career dedicated to customise impactful
training solutions. Our third and final guest
is Irma Alici. With over 25 years of expertise
across human resources management, healthcare
and business leadership, Irma delivers transformational
coaching that empowers professionals and executives
to unlock their potential in career and wellbeing.
She's dedicated to helping clients leverage relational
connectivity and accountability to achieve lasting
personal growth and success, plus become their
most authentic sales. Recorded in early December
of last year, this is women talking about learning.
This is Sarah, Valerie and Irma talking about
hybrid. Sarah, hello. How are you? Hi, Valerie.
I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I
just thought I'd ask. We've come together today.
What brings you today to talk about hybrid work
and hybrid learning? I'm a researcher on hybrid
work. So I've seen the benefits of working hybridly
because before I started my research, I actually
worked in a hybrid format. And I've also seen
the struggles with organizations trying to nail
hybrid and make hybrid work. Irma, what about
you? What brings you today? human resources for
now 20 plus years now, I see the conflict that
change has, well, it hasn't been seamless change,
has been sudden change in the last four to five
years, mainly because we went through lockdown,
you know. And so it intrigues and concerns me
that there's so much difficulty, there's so much
friction. And I'd love to explore that, ways
in which to make it a seamless change, because
it is upon us. So, Irma, the change, or well,
we know because we had lockdown and COVID and
the world had to stay at home. Yes. The whole
kind of work ethic and hybrid working and belonging
and learning, everything just got, all the pieces
of the puzzle got thrown up in the air. How do
you think we can... change that or ameliorate
some of that now? Well, the first thing is that
we have to understand hybrid. Hybrid is now the
buzzword, the go -to word for this decade. So
it's everywhere. You've got hybrid cars with
electric and petrol. You've got hybrid food coming
into the ecosystem. It's everywhere. And then
now we have hybrid working that's been foisted
upon community. It's not something that's been
chosen. It's something that's just happened.
But the change management needs to be inserted
in there. It's people saying, oh, let's go with
this because I'm comfortable with it. But comfortable,
we have to explore what is comfortable, you know,
because people have. suddenly realized that hang
on I don't have to work in this especially the
younger generations I don't have to burn myself
out because I found a different way of actually
earning money because that's the thing earning
money and also not stressing myself out that
day -to -day grind if we hark back to Dolly Parton's
nine to five song in the 80s working nine to
five yeah That has always been the undercurrent
in work ethics, that burnout. It's real. Sarah's
itching to get in right now. Yeah. And it's real
with women. It's more real with women. Sure.
Yeah. Well, what I was going to say, so, Irma,
you mentioned, you know, it's comfortable and
it just kind of happened. My view is more of
like. It was this middle ground between what
a lot of employees wanted, which was more flexibility
and more control over time, and what executives
want, which is, you know, to be able to see their
workforce, to have bumps on seats, to use the
real estate they're paying for. So I kind of
see it as this middle point that we reach. where
the friction that you mentioned is still happening,
right? There seems to be a lot of friction and
a lot of the issues with hybrid, I think, is
because we have kind of reached this middle ground,
but neither party has really considered how to
develop this middle ground properly because they're
still trying to pull towards the side they prefer.
Valerie, what is your take on that? Well, I think
the thing is that we had no choice when we began.
Lots of people were just sent home with their
laptops and said, get on Teams and Zoom and just
get on with it, guys. And you're right. A lot
of people found that that had been craving maybe
that flexibility and they did find that life
was easier for them and they could work on different
things at different times to suit, you know,
childcare, et cetera, et cetera, and life generally.
I think it's a really difficult one because the
challenge for the business, the organisations
are that, you know, they've got to trust their
employees that they're doing a good job and that
they're committing and doing all the tasks and
the performance and the engagement that they
want. But they also feel that. that they actually
want people into the office to get more brainstorming,
to get better vibe. There's also the whole thing
about belonging as a social person. So, you know,
you want to belong. You get better performance
and increased happiness for the worker as well
if they're involved. Don't let me get started
on the learning side of this, but I'm going to
flip back. Who wants to take it next, ladies?
I'll take it. You see, the thing is... There's
always change. But when it's managed, then it's
easier. This one has not been managed at all.
And everybody has said, oh, you know, this is
the way to go. This is the way to go. Because,
and it's, as you said, Sarah, it's been driven
by the younger workforce, you know. But is it
benefiting the organizations which they work
with? And how does it work with different disciplines?
Is hybrid working relevant in the entertainment
industry? Is it relevant in the hospitality industry?
Is it relevant in the care industry? These are
things that need to be explored. And if my manager
is working hybridly, a care manager, how do I
manage the carers who are hands -on, practical?
They can't definitely hybrid work looking after
a person. But I don't see my manager. And there's
a disconnect, you know, because my manager isn't
in the office. That's where the change management
hasn't come in. So there's two points you're
bringing up there, Irma. One is about, you know,
the younger generation driving this. And I think
obviously they're more comfortable with technology,
right? So they embrace technology a lot more.
But I have seen other employees also embrace
this for other reasons, right? So I think, you
know, a lot of people... They have these generational
views that, oh, it's a younger generation. And
I actually, just based on the interviews I've
had with people and the data we've collected,
I actually think it's all over the place, you
know, because some young people really crave
the social connection. They're starting their
careers and they want to connect with other people.
They want to learn from other people. So they
actually want to be in the office. So it's not
just the case that, you know, the younger ones
are the ones that want to work from home. I think
it's actually a little bit more widespread than
that. You also mentioned this idea of like different
industries having different levels of flexibility,
right? And I think you're totally right. And
this is probably one of the things we're seeing
is that inequality has probably increased. Because
in certain industries, a lot of the work can
be done from home. In the knowledge industry,
a lot of the work can be done. Like we saw during
the pandemic, right? Most people took a laptop
and went home. Whereas the first responders,
they had to be there face to face. So I think
in a way, this flexibility is now unevenly distributed
across organizations. This is certainly the case.
So what are some of the potential solutions then
for this inequality? I mean, Irma, you're right.
We've got the hospitality, the care, the medical.
We've got all those sectors that need to be out
facing. How do we solve some of these problems?
Again, I go back to change management. Change
management is a consultative process. It's an
experimental process. What works, what doesn't
work within our field. Sainsbury's trialed a
four -day working week with their organization.
Sainsbury's is a huge retail industry. It's a
retail industry. They wanted to say a four -day
working week. It was successful, but I don't
know if they've fully gone on to implement it
or will do. But they trialed that. As a way of
saying, how do we meet employee needs as well
as still function as a successful business? So
this is what hasn't been explored. And it has
to be done individually with the overarching
banner of hybrid, a different way of working,
a mixed way of working. The hybrid is mixed.
You know, it's a mix of different styles. And
then change. What works with my employee? What
works with my industry? What works with my company?
What is a happy place? It's not going to go away
because the younger workforce, as you said, Sarah,
want that flexibility. And then we also have
to think of women. More and more women are coming
into the... into the workforce. And I give an
example of my niece who had to leave work because
she gave birth to her daughter. And a couple
of years on, she then found hybrid working. And
that worked well because she was still nursing
her little one before going to school. And she
said it was such an immense relief for her to
find a paying job. And still be able to be there
for her daughter. So it is significant with women.
It's significant with women, especially women
who have childcare responsibilities, you know.
And not to cancel out men as well, you know,
because we have the dads as well who, you know,
would love to be around their children. I mean,
then the younger generation suddenly have an
agency with being there for their children. So
we have paternity care, paternity leave coming
in, coming on board. But yes, it is about how
does this work? How do we mold it to work for
us with consultation? Sarah, what do you think?
Well, I actually wanted to ask you, Valerie,
because you were talking about these issues of
trust and performance. And I think maybe this
is something that organizations are really struggling
with. Can you tell us a little more about your
experience with this? Like what are organizations
doing? Well, it's really interesting. I've got
some clients that I work with that have just
let people, I mean, they're in IT, so that does
help, okay? The guys don't want to go to the
office anymore. So they've actually given up
the office. They've closed the office, which
obviously from the profit basis is a good one.
So they haven't got that overhead anymore. And
others are demanding that people come in four
to five days a week. So some organizations are
allowing them to work Monday and Friday at home.
So you've got the Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
where the cafes and everything and the trains
are busy and the buses are busy. But it's a difficult
one because you must. think about how you recruit
in the first place you want to have people that
you know will do a good job and aren't going
to be don't want to be micromanaged and will
always deliver and support each other because
it is a belonging you know whether you're using
slack or whatsapp or any of the tools that are
available to us it's where you've got to try
and introduce new things in terms of learning
which is where it becomes i think more difficult
you because we don't just want to throw more
slop content, slop AI into the mix here. And
it's easy to do that. So it's really understanding
your work. It's back on understanding your workforce
and managing the change and looking after everybody,
which because you're not seeing them every day,
you're not actually seeing some of the important
cues or... you know, the contact that you would
get around the water cooler or coffee machine
to say how you're doing, honey, you know? Yeah.
So I think there's two interesting things that
you mentioned there. And I think this is where.
maybe a lot of organizations are really getting
things wrong. Like this idea of we're going to
bring people back because bringing people back
will encourage these water cooler conversations,
will encourage the interactions, will encourage
connections and this belonging that you were
mentioning, right? We already have research papers
that show if you bring people back, but they
come to an office where they don't know anyone,
you are basically an island amongst people. So,
you know, to bring people back, the experience
in the office has to be a good experience. And
I think there is this we haven't like a lot of
organizations are really not carefully thinking
about these things. They're like, we're just
going to put everyone back. We're going to have
encore days, which actually, in my opinion, are
terrible because you're basically crowding the
trains and the offices Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
As opposed to using your spaces, your physical
space and your digital space differently, and
really using the physical space to bring people
together, to connect them, to build real relationships.
And, you know, we're all in learning. So, you
know, learning opportunities are an amazing way
to create new connections. They're going through
this shared experience. organizations have to
be a little bit more thoughtful about what do
we want to happen in our physical space and how
do we connect people across the organization.
Irma, what are your thoughts? I mean, I was going
to go through from you, Sarah, because we, again,
that physical space, that office space, that
workspace, that we need to be redefined. What
is an office? Is it relevant to your job? And
yes, the human connection is important. We need
that. And it is known that the two major places
that we spend most of our lives is at home and
at work. And now we're merging the physical space
of work and home with a hybrid. But we still
need to know which is the workspace. We're going
to use workspace instead of office, you know.
And I think that has to be done individually
or by a company to say yes. Do we then have a
coffee meet at the Costa Coffee and meet up with
my boss and just have a couple of hours, you
know, like in IT, for instance. And then that's
the office. That's the office space, you know.
A lot of, you know, yeah, there's cafes and bars.
Now people go in there and do their work in it,
you know. Whole morning, all up in it. It's a
simple but. That's an important shift, isn't
it, Irma? Because if you're going to go to the
office and spend all your time on Zoom or Teams
calls, then that is the biggest waste of time
again. I mean, we're trying to get a new platform,
a new way of pulling everybody together. You
know, Sarah, you're nodding there. What do you
think? Well, it's funny because Irma was talking
about this Costa thing. So at my last job, before
I moved to doing research on this, we had this
leadership training program. And one of the things
that we did is we... pair people based on their
zip code. So you had like, like a body that was
I mean, we were a large organization. So we obviously
had people all over the UK, and we could do this
easy. And I really good feedback, you know, because
If you're already living in the same zip code,
you probably have a lot of commonalities. There's
lots of things you can share, right? And so people
would do this. People would actually like go
for coffee on their work from home days and talk
about the program, have a chat. How are you implementing
these new things that you're learning? So I really
think there's so much potential in hybrid that
it's just completely unexplored because we're
so fixated in this. We have to go back to the
office because, you know, companies are paying
for the real estate and they want to put it to
use. use, but they don't want to invest in modifying
that real estate. And it's outdated. It no longer
works for the way we are currently working. So
I think there has to be a shift in mindset. And
I also think there has to be a shift in this
physical space because to our earlier point,
right, it is changing. The way we're working
and the way we're using the physical space is
changing. So we have to be modified to adapt.
What are your thoughts? Well, I was going to
say, what can the role of L &D? do to play to
do to help us because it is a a change of mindset
it is a change of you know the employees or team
members and staff are valued members and valued
for their experience and skill and work ethic
and so we need to be reflecting it and supporting
in a A smart way, maybe. Smart's not quite the
right word, but you know what I mean. We need
to be clever. I think the learning bit is also
underscored by technology. What I mean is that
technology has actually allowed for hybrid working,
ease of hybrid working. Sure. And it's like,
how do we now learn from that to be able to make
it, to find the balance? between work strategies
and work patterns and also performance you know
because the well I guess it's all tied to what
is learning what does learning mean I mean learning
in the flow of work yeah I mean just having a
conversation with with you two here I'm learning
from you now You know, I don't get a certificate
for it or a star for it or a pay rise, but I'm
learning from you and I'm loving it. Yes, indeed.
What does learning mean for us? What I also want
to flag up is diversity in work strategies is
important. So we need to learn that. The varied
ways, I mean, what Sarah flagged up to say she
had bodies according to your postcode, your street
code, you know. That's a learning. That's a,
oh, we can do it this way. And it worked. Did
it work? Did it work, Sarah? Was that effective?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got really good feedback.
People connected and people really liked it.
Because if you have coffee with someone who's
down the street, why would you commute for 30
minutes, 45 minutes to an office? Obviously,
not every, when we're going back to this idea
of like, what your industry and what your company,
I think you're right, Irma, right? Not everyone
can do this. But yes. connecting here through
a technology platform where the technology has
allowed us, I'm in Germany today. So, you know,
we are connected across time and space at the
moment. And I think there is, you know, going
back to the question on learning, right? So yes,
technology can facilitate learning. I think where
some companies are struggling is this. tacit
learning or in -the -job learning that Valerie
was mentioning, right? The one that we used to
learn through osmosis, through sitting together,
watching someone else do something, that is much
more difficult to replicate in the digital world,
right? Because we're not seeing what the other
person is doing. We have to do this. We have
to set up a time and decide, you know, we're
going to come together and I'm going to share
with you what I know and you're going to share
with me what you know, right? So it has to be
much more intentional. And so... So I think that's
the thing that maybe I'm repeating myself here,
but I think this leaving things to chance, being
unintentional about connecting people or helping
people develop no longer works. You have to be
much more intentional and you have to be much
more considerate of how your digital workspace
and your physical workspace can enable this.
You know, that is a downside of this hybrid working.
And also underpinned with technology, with the
ease that technology allows you to be distant
to whoever it is you're communicating with or
interfacing with. And I'll give an example, a
story, an incidence where my son had a meeting
with his line manager and it was, oh yes, it
was his review, his annual review. So they needed
the presence of the HR officer, whoever it was,
representative. And he worked for a large company,
very, very large global company and huge building.
The AHL was a couple of floors above, you know,
just two, three minutes away, walk away from
the office where he was having his meeting. And
she decided to come in via Zoom to the meeting.
Yeah. Then the same building, she's just a few
steps away. So again, it's the balance, finding
that balance. How do you, do you then say to
her, oh, you shouldn't have done that. You should
be present in the meeting. Since there's no barrier,
there's no difficulty to you coming in on the
meeting, you know, but she preferred to be on
Zoom. And then we've seen cases like that. It's
hard, Irma, because she's... juggling a lot of
other things as well. Perhaps she thought that
the appraisal, the review was going to be, you
know, very quick one and done. You're doing a
great job. We love you. Here's your new training.
And this is your pay rise. Are you happy? Have
you got anything she wants to talk about? Bye.
Bye. No, but this is an important meeting, you
know, and the human connection. I'm harping on
the human connection. Because he came home aghast
thinking, I needed her there. I needed her there
physically in the room. And she wasn't far away.
But I wasn't important enough for her to come
in on my meeting that had been pre -scheduled
and lasted an hour. And she thought it was okay.
And she was a central person to this meeting.
And she was only a few steps away. But you have
that coming up. Morning, morning. People defaulting.
I was going to say, isn't that an excuse? You
know, we've all got, we've all got workloads.
We've all got a difficult, you know, we're all
juggling. We're juggling so many things. People,
we often don't tell other people what we're juggling.
Do we, Sarah? I mean, you're in Germany. We just
got on with it. Don't worry, we just do. So I
love this example, Irma, because we're actually,
we have a project right now where we're looking
at this. I think this is fascinating stuff, right?
You're in the same building and you don't get
up to do this. One of my research projects is
all about this. So people are making a choice,
right? I'm making a choice of I could join online
or I could join face -to -face. I can't speak
for this woman, like what was going on, probably
to Valerie's, right? There's one in London, she
thought, quick and dirty, you know, I'm going
to waste so much time getting up, going there,
coming back. We will have a chit chat in between.
I can't afford the chit chat in between the meetings.
So I'm just going to crack on, show up and then
leave, right? It does give you more control because
it's like you hang up and you can no longer ask
me questions or have a follow -up conversation,
right? If I hang up, it's over. So I have a lot
more control of that interaction. You know, in
this research project, it's really fascinating.
So people comment similar things, right? So somebody
might ask a question of someone else while both
of them are in the office. They can see each
other across the floor. They still ask each other
questions on the Teams channel or on a chat,
right? Why is that? Like some of the answers
I'm getting is like, well, I need an answer to
this question, but I don't need it right now.
So I don't want to bother the other person. So
I just want to signal to the other person. I
have a question and an answer, but I don't want
to disrupt the workflow. So again, the technology
gives us a possibility of controlling when we
interact and how we interact, whether we interact
for long or not. Those choices, eh? We're full
of choices now and we need to manage those choices.
For some people, you know, I've worked in big
organisations where I've gone floor walking because
I'm a trainer, eh? And people, I've gone so -and
-so around and they go, I don't know, I don't
know. Well, I've got a desk number. He sits next
to you and they've gone, yeah, I don't know him
though, you know? I mean... I mean, it depends.
I think it's really important to understand,
to get to know people and how to understand how
they like to work. Some people don't like to
be bombarded or being stopped, you know, but
I like to wander around and find out stuff because
I'm basically curious and a little bit nosy at
times. I think it is, you know, it isn't a technology.
It is the individual, the person, the human partner.
And the reason I say this is because I had to
manage a team that were completely fractious.
They had five managers who had come in over a
two -year period who'd all left, five managers
in two years. That's high turnover. And they
were middle -aged women, very, very independent,
very forceful, and they held the whole company
to ransom, this unit. And I went in there. I
said, I'm happy to work with them. Went in there.
We sat down at a meeting and they came in armed
for a fight. And I said to them, no questions
are off this table. Whatever you want to talk
about, wherever, whenever, however, bring it
to this table. If I can't answer it, I'll find
you the answers. And the energy dissipated instantly.
They felt heard. Within the team, they were not
talking to one another. And there was a lot of
friction because every one of them, each and
every individual was a powerhouse. And then we
did the simplest thing, basic thing, team building,
team building. And at the end of it, these women
were glowing. They were just on fire. So is it
about the technology or is it about the individual?
I don't want to face this person who decided
to sit in the office and go by teams. For whatever
reason, I couldn't be bothered to go downstairs
to sit in. And it's my job role on an important
annual review. Yeah. So tech, as we know, can
be used as a bit of an excuse not to connect
face -to -face. I think it's important. I think
any new project I work on, I always want to see
the people face -to -face and get to know them,
even though some of the work behind it will be
virtual online, because I want to build a bond
and a rapport. And also, if we have issues, then
they're easier to resolve and people feel heard
and valued, which is where we're going. with
all of this really, isn't it? Sarah, you're nodding
as well, hey? Yeah, I think you're bringing up
examples where the face -to -face might still
be very important, right? When there is, at the
beginning of a project, when there's conflict
on team members, right? Bringing people into
the room, then it's really important. I think
there is value in doing that. But it is a relationship
that is ongoing that, you know, we just wanted
to catch up next week. We could do this again
virtually, right? As long as there's the trust
and there's a good working relationship, I think
the location, whether it's at home or in the
office, won't matter. But it is super helpful
to have these original touchments, to really
connect with people, get to know them, understand
them, have these prolonged periods of time where
we can actually... talk about other things that
is not just work, right? Like to understand what
is the other person, what drives them, what are
they interested in? Yeah, absolutely. I agree.
You know, Valerie... Valerie pointed out it's
the human connection, building working relationships.
That is key. That is critical. And it matters
a lot that your boss or your mind manager, whoever,
can turn to you and say, excellent job. When
they say to you face -to -face, it has much,
much more depth and meaning and boosts you better
than when you get it in an email or even via
Zoom. There's something about human connectivity
that we cherish. And when we came out of lockdown,
people breathed a sigh of relief that I am still
alive because why? I can connect to the next
person. Someone smiled at me. Yeah, I can go
out. I had so much of that. Yes, I had so much
of that. I'm living again. I'm alive again. And,
you know, again, we communicate 80 % or a little
bit more of our communication is nonverbal. It's
non -verbal. It is non -verbal. Tone, expression,
even attitude, you know, gestures. People say,
oh, she said hello, but it was, she didn't, that
wasn't a genuine hello. Oh, that's another podcast.
Human connection in amongst the hybrid. We find
that loneliness and disconnect is there because
the human connection is not being maintained.
It's not being sustained. It's not being preserved.
So when we're doing the change management, there
has to be. And, you know, if it's by postcodes
or by zone, you know, street codes. There has
to be some connection. It's a great idea. We're
part of a community. We're part of a work community.
Absolutely. It's not nameless and faceless, which
is a lot of that is going on at the moment. Emails,
nameless, faceless. Yeah. So while we're learning
and changing, we have to see how we can insert
that, how we can preserve that. how we can continue
because humanity isn't going anywhere. Technology
is going to change in another five years. I guarantee
you that. Sooner than that, probably. They're
going to have something else coming up. Someone
said to me, AI, we ain't seen nothing yet. I
thought, really? Yeah. I mean, what can we do
to help? to advice we can offer to help people
to understand hybrid work and learning now? You
know, what are we going to have a couple of key
messages, Sarah and Irma, that we'd like to,
yeah, push out there? What do you think? One
point or two points? Change management. I would
say change management. It's individual to company
and to profession. So manage that change, talk
to, find ways that work, you know, street code.
Does it work to have a buddy, what do you call
it, a colleague buddy that is on your team and
you meet regularly, consistently, and then feed
up, you know. It's an open playing field now.
Sure, I agree it is. And they need to level that.
Yeah, yeah. And it's a dialogue that has to continue
to find solutions. Sarah? I think, you know,
the learning one, right? Because we're all in
learning. I think when possible to bring people...
For when we're doing formal learning, if possible,
to actually bring people together. I think there
is value in bringing people in a room together,
going through that shared experience, building
new connections. So onboarding, I think is super,
you know, Valerie, you were talking earlier about,
you know, who you hire and trusting them. I think
creating a face -to -face onboarding process
where people can connect to other people across
the organization, super helpful. In terms of
larger, not just learning, again, I don't think
all learning has to happen face -to -face, right?
We are learning in a digital platform, but I
do think learning that is supported with the
face -to -face is a much better learning experience
than learning that is just digital or self -driven.
I think there's been a big push about this, like
self -development, self -driven, do -it -yourself
kind of tools. And we know that learning is a
social process. We learn through others and with
others, right? So I think bringing the social
aspect that you guys have been talking about
a lot, right? This connecting, this belonging,
bringing that social aspect into all the learning
opportunities in an organization and being very
intentional about it. I think it's really important.
I also think, and I'll go just to do Valerie
in a second, but I also think that really reconsidering
what people need to do. on an office and what
can be done remotely or from home. And really
thinking deeply, I think earlier in the conversation,
we were talking about brainstorming. I think
brainstorming is probably one of those things
where it's still better to be face -to -face
because just like we're experiencing right now,
it's very hard to talk over one another. We're
constantly interrupting each other. The mics
get overlapped. So the technology is not quite
there. for what we're doing, which cannot be
complicated when it's happening face -to -face,
right? So I think companies have to be much more
intentional about what is it that we want people
to do in our physical offices and what things
that can be done offline. Valerie, what do you
think? I think that learners, or we call them
learners, anybody who's in our environment, really,
that we're all learning every day. I think we
need to have the... We need to have the voice
to say, yeah, I'm going to take ownership for
my learning, but this is how I like to learn
or this is what will work better for me. And
it's all about communication and open dialogue
and trying to be flexible and also get a great
job done. Yeah, this is true. And also be sensitive
or mindful of... who you're employing, you know,
as you said, a recruitment project. So women,
as I said, coming into the workforce, more and
more women. And, you know, if they go off and
want to have families, start a family, where
does that sit? Well, you know, we've all got
so many, we've got five generations of work in
the workforce. And on top of that, you know,
I mean, as our learned leader, Andrew, would
say, I've got an iPhone that's older than some
of the newest recruits we've got. So, I mean,
it just says it all. Listen, I could talk forever,
but I'm going to, I guess we need to wrap this
up for the man. Thank you so much. Thank you,
Irma. Thank you, Sarah. This has been an absolute
delight. And thank you to all our listeners.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure. It's
been amazing. It's been amazing, ladies. I've
learned so much from both of you. Thank you.
Thank you. What came through from our guests?
That change management actually matters, not
as a box -ticking exercise, but as something
you have to get right. That there's a genuine
tension between giving people flexibility and
keeping some organisational grip on things. And
that trust sits underneath all of it. Without
it? None of the hybrid stuff really works. If
you're trying to make sense of this hybrid era,
whether you're leading a team or a part of one,
these are the things worth paying attention to.
A massive thank you to Sarah, Valerie and Irma
for their insight into this topic and for their
time in making this a brilliant recording. Their
details are in the show notes, along with information
about how to connect with us here at Women Talking
About Learning and the podcast Learning Festival
next month. remember to like and subscribe to
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