WEBVTT 00:00:00.910 --> 00:00:04.410 Before we get started, a quick word. The Podcast 00:00:04.410 --> 00:00:06.629 Learning Festival takes place in a couple of 00:00:06.629 --> 00:00:09.929 weeks on February 26th at Mary Sumner House in 00:00:09.929 --> 00:00:12.789 London. It's a day for anyone interested in how 00:00:12.789 --> 00:00:16.010 podcasting and workplace learning intersect. 00:00:16.670 --> 00:00:19.250 You'll be alongside creators, L &D professionals 00:00:19.250 --> 00:00:22.250 and curious practitioners exploring what happens 00:00:22.250 --> 00:00:24.949 when we move from talking about learning to actually 00:00:24.949 --> 00:00:29.789 capturing it. Tickets and details are up. podcastlearningfest 00:00:29.789 --> 00:00:32.770 .live and there's a link in the show notes. Now, 00:00:32.869 --> 00:00:47.549 on with the episode. Hello everyone and welcome 00:00:47.549 --> 00:00:50.689 to this episode, the hybrid one of the Women 00:00:50.689 --> 00:00:53.030 Talking About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. 00:00:53.850 --> 00:00:57.039 The landscape of hybrid work is evolving. And, 00:00:57.060 --> 00:01:01.000 post -pandemic, it moved at pace. This presents 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:04.060 both challenges and opportunities around change 00:01:04.060 --> 00:01:06.920 management, technology, and human connection. 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:09.799 So, obviously, we wanted to record an episode 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:13.400 about it. Our first guest is Sarah Estevez -Correz. 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:17.140 Sarah is a researcher in the Strategy and Entrepreneurship 00:01:17.140 --> 00:01:19.319 group at the UCL School of Management, where 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:21.459 she focuses on the future of work, particularly 00:01:21.459 --> 00:01:23.719 on the impact of flexible work arrangements on 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:25.980 collaboration practices and the influence of 00:01:25.980 --> 00:01:28.700 workspace design and social norms on organisational 00:01:28.700 --> 00:01:31.879 behaviour. Our second guest is Valerie Merrill. 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:34.739 Valerie is a seasoned training consultant with 00:01:34.739 --> 00:01:36.840 more than three decades of experience designing, 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:39.819 delivering and managing learning programmes for 00:01:39.819 --> 00:01:41.980 a diverse range of clients in both the public 00:01:41.980 --> 00:01:45.219 and private sectors. Her reputation for excellence 00:01:45.219 --> 00:01:48.180 is built on a foundation of referral and recommendation, 00:01:48.579 --> 00:01:51.780 reflecting a career dedicated to customise impactful 00:01:51.780 --> 00:01:55.219 training solutions. Our third and final guest 00:01:55.219 --> 00:01:58.680 is Irma Alici. With over 25 years of expertise 00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:01.239 across human resources management, healthcare 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.760 and business leadership, Irma delivers transformational 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:07.120 coaching that empowers professionals and executives 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:10.199 to unlock their potential in career and wellbeing. 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:13.960 She's dedicated to helping clients leverage relational 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:17.460 connectivity and accountability to achieve lasting 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:20.240 personal growth and success, plus become their 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:23.819 most authentic sales. Recorded in early December 00:02:23.819 --> 00:02:26.360 of last year, this is women talking about learning. 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:30.639 This is Sarah, Valerie and Irma talking about 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:35.759 hybrid. Sarah, hello. How are you? Hi, Valerie. 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:39.099 I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I 00:02:39.099 --> 00:02:42.039 just thought I'd ask. We've come together today. 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:45.900 What brings you today to talk about hybrid work 00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:50.659 and hybrid learning? I'm a researcher on hybrid 00:02:50.659 --> 00:02:54.099 work. So I've seen the benefits of working hybridly 00:02:54.099 --> 00:02:56.659 because before I started my research, I actually 00:02:56.659 --> 00:02:59.759 worked in a hybrid format. And I've also seen 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:02.960 the struggles with organizations trying to nail 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:06.479 hybrid and make hybrid work. Irma, what about 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:11.740 you? What brings you today? human resources for 00:03:11.740 --> 00:03:16.300 now 20 plus years now, I see the conflict that 00:03:16.300 --> 00:03:20.900 change has, well, it hasn't been seamless change, 00:03:20.939 --> 00:03:24.360 has been sudden change in the last four to five 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.060 years, mainly because we went through lockdown, 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:33.900 you know. And so it intrigues and concerns me 00:03:33.900 --> 00:03:36.960 that there's so much difficulty, there's so much 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:40.810 friction. And I'd love to explore that, ways 00:03:40.810 --> 00:03:45.430 in which to make it a seamless change, because 00:03:45.430 --> 00:03:49.770 it is upon us. So, Irma, the change, or well, 00:03:49.889 --> 00:03:52.310 we know because we had lockdown and COVID and 00:03:52.310 --> 00:03:56.650 the world had to stay at home. Yes. The whole 00:03:56.650 --> 00:03:59.949 kind of work ethic and hybrid working and belonging 00:03:59.949 --> 00:04:02.789 and learning, everything just got, all the pieces 00:04:02.789 --> 00:04:05.889 of the puzzle got thrown up in the air. How do 00:04:05.889 --> 00:04:09.960 you think we can... change that or ameliorate 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.740 some of that now? Well, the first thing is that 00:04:13.740 --> 00:04:17.519 we have to understand hybrid. Hybrid is now the 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:22.639 buzzword, the go -to word for this decade. So 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:24.860 it's everywhere. You've got hybrid cars with 00:04:24.860 --> 00:04:31.139 electric and petrol. You've got hybrid food coming 00:04:31.139 --> 00:04:36.660 into the ecosystem. It's everywhere. And then 00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:39.680 now we have hybrid working that's been foisted 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:44.399 upon community. It's not something that's been 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.259 chosen. It's something that's just happened. 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:51.680 But the change management needs to be inserted 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:55.100 in there. It's people saying, oh, let's go with 00:04:55.100 --> 00:04:58.980 this because I'm comfortable with it. But comfortable, 00:04:59.180 --> 00:05:02.060 we have to explore what is comfortable, you know, 00:05:02.060 --> 00:05:06.370 because people have. suddenly realized that hang 00:05:06.370 --> 00:05:08.629 on I don't have to work in this especially the 00:05:08.629 --> 00:05:11.589 younger generations I don't have to burn myself 00:05:11.589 --> 00:05:15.550 out because I found a different way of actually 00:05:15.550 --> 00:05:18.189 earning money because that's the thing earning 00:05:18.189 --> 00:05:24.410 money and also not stressing myself out that 00:05:24.410 --> 00:05:28.389 day -to -day grind if we hark back to Dolly Parton's 00:05:28.389 --> 00:05:31.949 nine to five song in the 80s working nine to 00:05:31.949 --> 00:05:37.680 five yeah That has always been the undercurrent 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:42.259 in work ethics, that burnout. It's real. Sarah's 00:05:42.259 --> 00:05:46.100 itching to get in right now. Yeah. And it's real 00:05:46.100 --> 00:05:49.040 with women. It's more real with women. Sure. 00:05:49.180 --> 00:05:52.160 Yeah. Well, what I was going to say, so, Irma, 00:05:52.220 --> 00:05:54.899 you mentioned, you know, it's comfortable and 00:05:54.899 --> 00:05:57.779 it just kind of happened. My view is more of 00:05:57.779 --> 00:06:01.180 like. It was this middle ground between what 00:06:01.180 --> 00:06:04.360 a lot of employees wanted, which was more flexibility 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:08.379 and more control over time, and what executives 00:06:08.379 --> 00:06:11.160 want, which is, you know, to be able to see their 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:13.560 workforce, to have bumps on seats, to use the 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:16.860 real estate they're paying for. So I kind of 00:06:16.860 --> 00:06:20.730 see it as this middle point that we reach. where 00:06:20.730 --> 00:06:23.209 the friction that you mentioned is still happening, 00:06:23.389 --> 00:06:25.209 right? There seems to be a lot of friction and 00:06:25.209 --> 00:06:27.209 a lot of the issues with hybrid, I think, is 00:06:27.209 --> 00:06:30.069 because we have kind of reached this middle ground, 00:06:30.189 --> 00:06:33.910 but neither party has really considered how to 00:06:33.910 --> 00:06:36.189 develop this middle ground properly because they're 00:06:36.189 --> 00:06:38.490 still trying to pull towards the side they prefer. 00:06:39.050 --> 00:06:42.850 Valerie, what is your take on that? Well, I think 00:06:42.850 --> 00:06:45.569 the thing is that we had no choice when we began. 00:06:45.810 --> 00:06:48.089 Lots of people were just sent home with their 00:06:48.089 --> 00:06:50.970 laptops and said, get on Teams and Zoom and just 00:06:50.970 --> 00:06:54.110 get on with it, guys. And you're right. A lot 00:06:54.110 --> 00:06:57.050 of people found that that had been craving maybe 00:06:57.050 --> 00:07:00.050 that flexibility and they did find that life 00:07:00.050 --> 00:07:02.970 was easier for them and they could work on different 00:07:02.970 --> 00:07:05.290 things at different times to suit, you know, 00:07:05.350 --> 00:07:08.470 childcare, et cetera, et cetera, and life generally. 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:12.040 I think it's a really difficult one because the 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:15.980 challenge for the business, the organisations 00:07:15.980 --> 00:07:19.579 are that, you know, they've got to trust their 00:07:19.579 --> 00:07:21.699 employees that they're doing a good job and that 00:07:21.699 --> 00:07:24.920 they're committing and doing all the tasks and 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:26.939 the performance and the engagement that they 00:07:26.939 --> 00:07:30.000 want. But they also feel that. that they actually 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.740 want people into the office to get more brainstorming, 00:07:33.740 --> 00:07:36.160 to get better vibe. There's also the whole thing 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:39.740 about belonging as a social person. So, you know, 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:41.759 you want to belong. You get better performance 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:46.100 and increased happiness for the worker as well 00:07:46.100 --> 00:07:48.339 if they're involved. Don't let me get started 00:07:48.339 --> 00:07:50.579 on the learning side of this, but I'm going to 00:07:50.579 --> 00:07:52.819 flip back. Who wants to take it next, ladies? 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:56.519 I'll take it. You see, the thing is... There's 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:59.740 always change. But when it's managed, then it's 00:07:59.740 --> 00:08:03.480 easier. This one has not been managed at all. 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:06.800 And everybody has said, oh, you know, this is 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:09.959 the way to go. This is the way to go. Because, 00:08:10.060 --> 00:08:13.699 and it's, as you said, Sarah, it's been driven 00:08:13.699 --> 00:08:17.560 by the younger workforce, you know. But is it 00:08:17.560 --> 00:08:21.220 benefiting the organizations which they work 00:08:21.220 --> 00:08:24.939 with? And how does it work with different disciplines? 00:08:25.579 --> 00:08:30.160 Is hybrid working relevant in the entertainment 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:33.840 industry? Is it relevant in the hospitality industry? 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:37.519 Is it relevant in the care industry? These are 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:40.700 things that need to be explored. And if my manager 00:08:40.700 --> 00:08:46.419 is working hybridly, a care manager, how do I 00:08:46.419 --> 00:08:49.259 manage the carers who are hands -on, practical? 00:08:49.419 --> 00:08:51.480 They can't definitely hybrid work looking after 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:55.210 a person. But I don't see my manager. And there's 00:08:55.210 --> 00:08:58.970 a disconnect, you know, because my manager isn't 00:08:58.970 --> 00:09:01.149 in the office. That's where the change management 00:09:01.149 --> 00:09:03.990 hasn't come in. So there's two points you're 00:09:03.990 --> 00:09:06.210 bringing up there, Irma. One is about, you know, 00:09:06.210 --> 00:09:08.450 the younger generation driving this. And I think 00:09:08.450 --> 00:09:11.049 obviously they're more comfortable with technology, 00:09:11.289 --> 00:09:13.009 right? So they embrace technology a lot more. 00:09:13.090 --> 00:09:16.570 But I have seen other employees also embrace 00:09:16.570 --> 00:09:19.690 this for other reasons, right? So I think, you 00:09:19.690 --> 00:09:21.700 know, a lot of people... They have these generational 00:09:21.700 --> 00:09:23.519 views that, oh, it's a younger generation. And 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:25.419 I actually, just based on the interviews I've 00:09:25.419 --> 00:09:27.220 had with people and the data we've collected, 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:30.179 I actually think it's all over the place, you 00:09:30.179 --> 00:09:32.279 know, because some young people really crave 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:34.559 the social connection. They're starting their 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:36.919 careers and they want to connect with other people. 00:09:36.940 --> 00:09:38.480 They want to learn from other people. So they 00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:40.700 actually want to be in the office. So it's not 00:09:40.700 --> 00:09:42.720 just the case that, you know, the younger ones 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:44.559 are the ones that want to work from home. I think 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:46.379 it's actually a little bit more widespread than 00:09:46.379 --> 00:09:49.879 that. You also mentioned this idea of like different 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:53.340 industries having different levels of flexibility, 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:55.259 right? And I think you're totally right. And 00:09:55.259 --> 00:09:56.980 this is probably one of the things we're seeing 00:09:56.980 --> 00:10:01.009 is that inequality has probably increased. Because 00:10:01.009 --> 00:10:03.509 in certain industries, a lot of the work can 00:10:03.509 --> 00:10:05.110 be done from home. In the knowledge industry, 00:10:05.450 --> 00:10:07.870 a lot of the work can be done. Like we saw during 00:10:07.870 --> 00:10:09.769 the pandemic, right? Most people took a laptop 00:10:09.769 --> 00:10:12.850 and went home. Whereas the first responders, 00:10:13.029 --> 00:10:15.370 they had to be there face to face. So I think 00:10:15.370 --> 00:10:18.750 in a way, this flexibility is now unevenly distributed 00:10:18.750 --> 00:10:21.710 across organizations. This is certainly the case. 00:10:22.549 --> 00:10:25.230 So what are some of the potential solutions then 00:10:25.230 --> 00:10:28.350 for this inequality? I mean, Irma, you're right. 00:10:28.789 --> 00:10:34.970 We've got the hospitality, the care, the medical. 00:10:35.169 --> 00:10:38.049 We've got all those sectors that need to be out 00:10:38.049 --> 00:10:43.029 facing. How do we solve some of these problems? 00:10:44.169 --> 00:10:47.289 Again, I go back to change management. Change 00:10:47.289 --> 00:10:50.470 management is a consultative process. It's an 00:10:50.470 --> 00:10:54.210 experimental process. What works, what doesn't 00:10:54.210 --> 00:10:57.809 work within our field. Sainsbury's trialed a 00:10:57.809 --> 00:10:59.929 four -day working week with their organization. 00:11:00.429 --> 00:11:02.750 Sainsbury's is a huge retail industry. It's a 00:11:02.750 --> 00:11:05.610 retail industry. They wanted to say a four -day 00:11:05.610 --> 00:11:07.970 working week. It was successful, but I don't 00:11:07.970 --> 00:11:10.529 know if they've fully gone on to implement it 00:11:10.529 --> 00:11:15.159 or will do. But they trialed that. As a way of 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:19.120 saying, how do we meet employee needs as well 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:22.360 as still function as a successful business? So 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:26.740 this is what hasn't been explored. And it has 00:11:26.740 --> 00:11:30.879 to be done individually with the overarching 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:33.879 banner of hybrid, a different way of working, 00:11:33.980 --> 00:11:36.480 a mixed way of working. The hybrid is mixed. 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.299 You know, it's a mix of different styles. And 00:11:40.299 --> 00:11:43.899 then change. What works with my employee? What 00:11:43.899 --> 00:11:46.419 works with my industry? What works with my company? 00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:52.399 What is a happy place? It's not going to go away 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:55.519 because the younger workforce, as you said, Sarah, 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:58.360 want that flexibility. And then we also have 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:00.860 to think of women. More and more women are coming 00:12:00.860 --> 00:12:04.419 into the... into the workforce. And I give an 00:12:04.419 --> 00:12:09.659 example of my niece who had to leave work because 00:12:09.659 --> 00:12:13.840 she gave birth to her daughter. And a couple 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:17.580 of years on, she then found hybrid working. And 00:12:17.580 --> 00:12:19.399 that worked well because she was still nursing 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:22.500 her little one before going to school. And she 00:12:22.500 --> 00:12:25.919 said it was such an immense relief for her to 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.580 find a paying job. And still be able to be there 00:12:29.580 --> 00:12:32.340 for her daughter. So it is significant with women. 00:12:32.379 --> 00:12:35.220 It's significant with women, especially women 00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:39.860 who have childcare responsibilities, you know. 00:12:39.899 --> 00:12:42.639 And not to cancel out men as well, you know, 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:44.700 because we have the dads as well who, you know, 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:48.419 would love to be around their children. I mean, 00:12:48.460 --> 00:12:51.700 then the younger generation suddenly have an 00:12:51.700 --> 00:12:57.190 agency with being there for their children. So 00:12:57.190 --> 00:13:00.590 we have paternity care, paternity leave coming 00:13:00.590 --> 00:13:05.610 in, coming on board. But yes, it is about how 00:13:05.610 --> 00:13:10.769 does this work? How do we mold it to work for 00:13:10.769 --> 00:13:14.429 us with consultation? Sarah, what do you think? 00:13:14.669 --> 00:13:16.330 Well, I actually wanted to ask you, Valerie, 00:13:16.490 --> 00:13:18.269 because you were talking about these issues of 00:13:18.269 --> 00:13:20.570 trust and performance. And I think maybe this 00:13:20.570 --> 00:13:22.769 is something that organizations are really struggling 00:13:22.769 --> 00:13:25.169 with. Can you tell us a little more about your 00:13:25.169 --> 00:13:26.889 experience with this? Like what are organizations 00:13:26.889 --> 00:13:31.570 doing? Well, it's really interesting. I've got 00:13:31.570 --> 00:13:34.250 some clients that I work with that have just 00:13:34.250 --> 00:13:37.110 let people, I mean, they're in IT, so that does 00:13:37.110 --> 00:13:41.009 help, okay? The guys don't want to go to the 00:13:41.009 --> 00:13:43.090 office anymore. So they've actually given up 00:13:43.090 --> 00:13:45.789 the office. They've closed the office, which 00:13:45.789 --> 00:13:48.870 obviously from the profit basis is a good one. 00:13:48.950 --> 00:13:52.080 So they haven't got that overhead anymore. And 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.039 others are demanding that people come in four 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:58.500 to five days a week. So some organizations are 00:13:58.500 --> 00:14:00.580 allowing them to work Monday and Friday at home. 00:14:00.620 --> 00:14:02.320 So you've got the Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, 00:14:02.460 --> 00:14:06.340 where the cafes and everything and the trains 00:14:06.340 --> 00:14:10.580 are busy and the buses are busy. But it's a difficult 00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:15.620 one because you must. think about how you recruit 00:14:15.620 --> 00:14:18.039 in the first place you want to have people that 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.480 you know will do a good job and aren't going 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:22.840 to be don't want to be micromanaged and will 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:26.379 always deliver and support each other because 00:14:26.379 --> 00:14:28.980 it is a belonging you know whether you're using 00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:32.019 slack or whatsapp or any of the tools that are 00:14:32.019 --> 00:14:34.620 available to us it's where you've got to try 00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:36.679 and introduce new things in terms of learning 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:39.899 which is where it becomes i think more difficult 00:14:39.899 --> 00:14:42.269 you because we don't just want to throw more 00:14:42.269 --> 00:14:47.610 slop content, slop AI into the mix here. And 00:14:47.610 --> 00:14:50.830 it's easy to do that. So it's really understanding 00:14:50.830 --> 00:14:53.110 your work. It's back on understanding your workforce 00:14:53.110 --> 00:14:55.870 and managing the change and looking after everybody, 00:14:56.190 --> 00:14:58.450 which because you're not seeing them every day, 00:14:58.570 --> 00:15:01.370 you're not actually seeing some of the important 00:15:01.370 --> 00:15:06.820 cues or... you know, the contact that you would 00:15:06.820 --> 00:15:09.960 get around the water cooler or coffee machine 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:11.879 to say how you're doing, honey, you know? Yeah. 00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:13.899 So I think there's two interesting things that 00:15:13.899 --> 00:15:15.179 you mentioned there. And I think this is where. 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:17.240 maybe a lot of organizations are really getting 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:19.759 things wrong. Like this idea of we're going to 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:21.899 bring people back because bringing people back 00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:24.159 will encourage these water cooler conversations, 00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:26.700 will encourage the interactions, will encourage 00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:29.279 connections and this belonging that you were 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:32.159 mentioning, right? We already have research papers 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:34.919 that show if you bring people back, but they 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:37.480 come to an office where they don't know anyone, 00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:41.740 you are basically an island amongst people. So, 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:44.080 you know, to bring people back, the experience 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:47.259 in the office has to be a good experience. And 00:15:47.259 --> 00:15:50.159 I think there is this we haven't like a lot of 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:52.500 organizations are really not carefully thinking 00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:53.820 about these things. They're like, we're just 00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:55.740 going to put everyone back. We're going to have 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:58.279 encore days, which actually, in my opinion, are 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:00.820 terrible because you're basically crowding the 00:16:00.820 --> 00:16:03.039 trains and the offices Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.480 As opposed to using your spaces, your physical 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:10.100 space and your digital space differently, and 00:16:10.100 --> 00:16:12.620 really using the physical space to bring people 00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:14.899 together, to connect them, to build real relationships. 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.580 And, you know, we're all in learning. So, you 00:16:17.580 --> 00:16:20.600 know, learning opportunities are an amazing way 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.639 to create new connections. They're going through 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.460 this shared experience. organizations have to 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:29.139 be a little bit more thoughtful about what do 00:16:29.139 --> 00:16:31.799 we want to happen in our physical space and how 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:33.519 do we connect people across the organization. 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:36.779 Irma, what are your thoughts? I mean, I was going 00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:40.179 to go through from you, Sarah, because we, again, 00:16:40.460 --> 00:16:43.480 that physical space, that office space, that 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:47.279 workspace, that we need to be redefined. What 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:50.820 is an office? Is it relevant to your job? And 00:16:50.820 --> 00:16:54.159 yes, the human connection is important. We need 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:58.379 that. And it is known that the two major places 00:16:58.379 --> 00:17:01.580 that we spend most of our lives is at home and 00:17:01.580 --> 00:17:05.140 at work. And now we're merging the physical space 00:17:05.140 --> 00:17:09.440 of work and home with a hybrid. But we still 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:13.420 need to know which is the workspace. We're going 00:17:13.420 --> 00:17:15.799 to use workspace instead of office, you know. 00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:19.319 And I think that has to be done individually 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:23.019 or by a company to say yes. Do we then have a 00:17:23.019 --> 00:17:26.500 coffee meet at the Costa Coffee and meet up with 00:17:26.500 --> 00:17:28.559 my boss and just have a couple of hours, you 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:32.140 know, like in IT, for instance. And then that's 00:17:32.140 --> 00:17:34.140 the office. That's the office space, you know. 00:17:34.180 --> 00:17:37.720 A lot of, you know, yeah, there's cafes and bars. 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.700 Now people go in there and do their work in it, 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:43.799 you know. Whole morning, all up in it. It's a 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:46.730 simple but. That's an important shift, isn't 00:17:46.730 --> 00:17:49.670 it, Irma? Because if you're going to go to the 00:17:49.670 --> 00:17:52.730 office and spend all your time on Zoom or Teams 00:17:52.730 --> 00:17:55.349 calls, then that is the biggest waste of time 00:17:55.349 --> 00:17:58.250 again. I mean, we're trying to get a new platform, 00:17:58.329 --> 00:18:01.049 a new way of pulling everybody together. You 00:18:01.049 --> 00:18:03.069 know, Sarah, you're nodding there. What do you 00:18:03.069 --> 00:18:04.869 think? Well, it's funny because Irma was talking 00:18:04.869 --> 00:18:07.809 about this Costa thing. So at my last job, before 00:18:07.809 --> 00:18:11.130 I moved to doing research on this, we had this 00:18:11.130 --> 00:18:13.130 leadership training program. And one of the things 00:18:13.130 --> 00:18:16.809 that we did is we... pair people based on their 00:18:16.809 --> 00:18:21.390 zip code. So you had like, like a body that was 00:18:21.390 --> 00:18:23.529 I mean, we were a large organization. So we obviously 00:18:23.529 --> 00:18:26.750 had people all over the UK, and we could do this 00:18:26.750 --> 00:18:30.890 easy. And I really good feedback, you know, because 00:18:31.579 --> 00:18:33.420 If you're already living in the same zip code, 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:35.779 you probably have a lot of commonalities. There's 00:18:35.779 --> 00:18:38.079 lots of things you can share, right? And so people 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:39.700 would do this. People would actually like go 00:18:39.700 --> 00:18:42.500 for coffee on their work from home days and talk 00:18:42.500 --> 00:18:45.480 about the program, have a chat. How are you implementing 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:47.859 these new things that you're learning? So I really 00:18:47.859 --> 00:18:50.640 think there's so much potential in hybrid that 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.339 it's just completely unexplored because we're 00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:56.019 so fixated in this. We have to go back to the 00:18:56.019 --> 00:18:58.819 office because, you know, companies are paying 00:18:58.819 --> 00:19:00.819 for the real estate and they want to put it to 00:19:00.819 --> 00:19:02.849 use. use, but they don't want to invest in modifying 00:19:02.849 --> 00:19:05.730 that real estate. And it's outdated. It no longer 00:19:05.730 --> 00:19:08.990 works for the way we are currently working. So 00:19:08.990 --> 00:19:12.490 I think there has to be a shift in mindset. And 00:19:12.490 --> 00:19:14.490 I also think there has to be a shift in this 00:19:14.490 --> 00:19:17.250 physical space because to our earlier point, 00:19:17.410 --> 00:19:20.769 right, it is changing. The way we're working 00:19:20.769 --> 00:19:22.529 and the way we're using the physical space is 00:19:22.529 --> 00:19:25.109 changing. So we have to be modified to adapt. 00:19:25.390 --> 00:19:27.089 What are your thoughts? Well, I was going to 00:19:27.089 --> 00:19:31.859 say, what can the role of L &D? do to play to 00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:35.839 do to help us because it is a a change of mindset 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.299 it is a change of you know the employees or team 00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:43.460 members and staff are valued members and valued 00:19:43.460 --> 00:19:47.240 for their experience and skill and work ethic 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:51.920 and so we need to be reflecting it and supporting 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:55.470 in a A smart way, maybe. Smart's not quite the 00:19:55.470 --> 00:19:56.970 right word, but you know what I mean. We need 00:19:56.970 --> 00:20:00.990 to be clever. I think the learning bit is also 00:20:00.990 --> 00:20:05.470 underscored by technology. What I mean is that 00:20:05.470 --> 00:20:10.009 technology has actually allowed for hybrid working, 00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:13.450 ease of hybrid working. Sure. And it's like, 00:20:13.529 --> 00:20:17.890 how do we now learn from that to be able to make 00:20:17.890 --> 00:20:22.490 it, to find the balance? between work strategies 00:20:22.490 --> 00:20:26.690 and work patterns and also performance you know 00:20:26.690 --> 00:20:29.529 because the well I guess it's all tied to what 00:20:29.529 --> 00:20:32.410 is learning what does learning mean I mean learning 00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:34.910 in the flow of work yeah I mean just having a 00:20:34.910 --> 00:20:38.009 conversation with with you two here I'm learning 00:20:38.009 --> 00:20:42.710 from you now You know, I don't get a certificate 00:20:42.710 --> 00:20:47.029 for it or a star for it or a pay rise, but I'm 00:20:47.029 --> 00:20:49.029 learning from you and I'm loving it. Yes, indeed. 00:20:49.410 --> 00:20:53.190 What does learning mean for us? What I also want 00:20:53.190 --> 00:20:55.809 to flag up is diversity in work strategies is 00:20:55.809 --> 00:20:58.529 important. So we need to learn that. The varied 00:20:58.529 --> 00:21:03.349 ways, I mean, what Sarah flagged up to say she 00:21:03.349 --> 00:21:07.049 had bodies according to your postcode, your street 00:21:07.049 --> 00:21:10.799 code, you know. That's a learning. That's a, 00:21:10.900 --> 00:21:13.500 oh, we can do it this way. And it worked. Did 00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:16.539 it work? Did it work, Sarah? Was that effective? 00:21:17.299 --> 00:21:19.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got really good feedback. 00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:21.400 People connected and people really liked it. 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:24.619 Because if you have coffee with someone who's 00:21:24.619 --> 00:21:27.339 down the street, why would you commute for 30 00:21:27.339 --> 00:21:29.940 minutes, 45 minutes to an office? Obviously, 00:21:29.940 --> 00:21:31.640 not every, when we're going back to this idea 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:34.099 of like, what your industry and what your company, 00:21:34.220 --> 00:21:35.700 I think you're right, Irma, right? Not everyone 00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:39.230 can do this. But yes. connecting here through 00:21:39.230 --> 00:21:41.309 a technology platform where the technology has 00:21:41.309 --> 00:21:43.750 allowed us, I'm in Germany today. So, you know, 00:21:43.769 --> 00:21:46.210 we are connected across time and space at the 00:21:46.210 --> 00:21:49.569 moment. And I think there is, you know, going 00:21:49.569 --> 00:21:52.009 back to the question on learning, right? So yes, 00:21:52.089 --> 00:21:55.309 technology can facilitate learning. I think where 00:21:55.309 --> 00:21:58.420 some companies are struggling is this. tacit 00:21:58.420 --> 00:22:00.339 learning or in -the -job learning that Valerie 00:22:00.339 --> 00:22:03.740 was mentioning, right? The one that we used to 00:22:03.740 --> 00:22:06.259 learn through osmosis, through sitting together, 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:09.420 watching someone else do something, that is much 00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:12.539 more difficult to replicate in the digital world, 00:22:12.660 --> 00:22:14.559 right? Because we're not seeing what the other 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:16.680 person is doing. We have to do this. We have 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:19.359 to set up a time and decide, you know, we're 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:20.559 going to come together and I'm going to share 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:21.920 with you what I know and you're going to share 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:24.380 with me what you know, right? So it has to be 00:22:24.380 --> 00:22:27.799 much more intentional. And so... So I think that's 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:30.180 the thing that maybe I'm repeating myself here, 00:22:30.220 --> 00:22:33.099 but I think this leaving things to chance, being 00:22:33.099 --> 00:22:36.339 unintentional about connecting people or helping 00:22:36.339 --> 00:22:39.680 people develop no longer works. You have to be 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:41.680 much more intentional and you have to be much 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.740 more considerate of how your digital workspace 00:22:44.740 --> 00:22:47.240 and your physical workspace can enable this. 00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:52.880 You know, that is a downside of this hybrid working. 00:22:53.630 --> 00:22:56.670 And also underpinned with technology, with the 00:22:56.670 --> 00:22:59.109 ease that technology allows you to be distant 00:22:59.109 --> 00:23:01.730 to whoever it is you're communicating with or 00:23:01.730 --> 00:23:05.589 interfacing with. And I'll give an example, a 00:23:05.589 --> 00:23:09.730 story, an incidence where my son had a meeting 00:23:09.730 --> 00:23:13.089 with his line manager and it was, oh yes, it 00:23:13.089 --> 00:23:15.630 was his review, his annual review. So they needed 00:23:15.630 --> 00:23:19.730 the presence of the HR officer, whoever it was, 00:23:19.769 --> 00:23:23.220 representative. And he worked for a large company, 00:23:23.420 --> 00:23:28.099 very, very large global company and huge building. 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.740 The AHL was a couple of floors above, you know, 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:34.140 just two, three minutes away, walk away from 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:36.700 the office where he was having his meeting. And 00:23:36.700 --> 00:23:40.480 she decided to come in via Zoom to the meeting. 00:23:40.740 --> 00:23:43.940 Yeah. Then the same building, she's just a few 00:23:43.940 --> 00:23:48.519 steps away. So again, it's the balance, finding 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:50.859 that balance. How do you, do you then say to 00:23:50.859 --> 00:23:52.819 her, oh, you shouldn't have done that. You should 00:23:52.819 --> 00:23:57.960 be present in the meeting. Since there's no barrier, 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:00.140 there's no difficulty to you coming in on the 00:24:00.140 --> 00:24:02.619 meeting, you know, but she preferred to be on 00:24:02.619 --> 00:24:05.980 Zoom. And then we've seen cases like that. It's 00:24:05.980 --> 00:24:09.420 hard, Irma, because she's... juggling a lot of 00:24:09.420 --> 00:24:12.779 other things as well. Perhaps she thought that 00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:16.019 the appraisal, the review was going to be, you 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:18.980 know, very quick one and done. You're doing a 00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:20.720 great job. We love you. Here's your new training. 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:24.539 And this is your pay rise. Are you happy? Have 00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:25.920 you got anything she wants to talk about? Bye. 00:24:28.259 --> 00:24:32.160 Bye. No, but this is an important meeting, you 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.180 know, and the human connection. I'm harping on 00:24:36.180 --> 00:24:40.430 the human connection. Because he came home aghast 00:24:40.430 --> 00:24:43.990 thinking, I needed her there. I needed her there 00:24:43.990 --> 00:24:47.269 physically in the room. And she wasn't far away. 00:24:47.529 --> 00:24:50.569 But I wasn't important enough for her to come 00:24:50.569 --> 00:24:53.009 in on my meeting that had been pre -scheduled 00:24:53.009 --> 00:24:56.049 and lasted an hour. And she thought it was okay. 00:24:56.509 --> 00:24:59.829 And she was a central person to this meeting. 00:25:00.210 --> 00:25:03.950 And she was only a few steps away. But you have 00:25:03.950 --> 00:25:07.220 that coming up. Morning, morning. People defaulting. 00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:09.960 I was going to say, isn't that an excuse? You 00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:12.240 know, we've all got, we've all got workloads. 00:25:12.859 --> 00:25:15.440 We've all got a difficult, you know, we're all 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.440 juggling. We're juggling so many things. People, 00:25:18.619 --> 00:25:21.619 we often don't tell other people what we're juggling. 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:24.039 Do we, Sarah? I mean, you're in Germany. We just 00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:28.160 got on with it. Don't worry, we just do. So I 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:30.319 love this example, Irma, because we're actually, 00:25:30.380 --> 00:25:31.940 we have a project right now where we're looking 00:25:31.940 --> 00:25:34.539 at this. I think this is fascinating stuff, right? 00:25:34.579 --> 00:25:36.819 You're in the same building and you don't get 00:25:36.819 --> 00:25:41.740 up to do this. One of my research projects is 00:25:41.740 --> 00:25:44.319 all about this. So people are making a choice, 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.720 right? I'm making a choice of I could join online 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:50.369 or I could join face -to -face. I can't speak 00:25:50.369 --> 00:25:52.150 for this woman, like what was going on, probably 00:25:52.150 --> 00:25:54.789 to Valerie's, right? There's one in London, she 00:25:54.789 --> 00:25:56.549 thought, quick and dirty, you know, I'm going 00:25:56.549 --> 00:25:58.150 to waste so much time getting up, going there, 00:25:58.190 --> 00:25:59.869 coming back. We will have a chit chat in between. 00:25:59.950 --> 00:26:02.230 I can't afford the chit chat in between the meetings. 00:26:02.230 --> 00:26:04.329 So I'm just going to crack on, show up and then 00:26:04.329 --> 00:26:07.170 leave, right? It does give you more control because 00:26:07.170 --> 00:26:10.430 it's like you hang up and you can no longer ask 00:26:10.430 --> 00:26:12.930 me questions or have a follow -up conversation, 00:26:13.190 --> 00:26:15.789 right? If I hang up, it's over. So I have a lot 00:26:15.789 --> 00:26:19.720 more control of that interaction. You know, in 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:21.980 this research project, it's really fascinating. 00:26:22.140 --> 00:26:24.700 So people comment similar things, right? So somebody 00:26:24.700 --> 00:26:27.660 might ask a question of someone else while both 00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:29.480 of them are in the office. They can see each 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.180 other across the floor. They still ask each other 00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:35.740 questions on the Teams channel or on a chat, 00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:39.480 right? Why is that? Like some of the answers 00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:41.579 I'm getting is like, well, I need an answer to 00:26:41.579 --> 00:26:43.279 this question, but I don't need it right now. 00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:45.319 So I don't want to bother the other person. So 00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:47.640 I just want to signal to the other person. I 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:49.980 have a question and an answer, but I don't want 00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:53.200 to disrupt the workflow. So again, the technology 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:57.359 gives us a possibility of controlling when we 00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:00.220 interact and how we interact, whether we interact 00:27:00.220 --> 00:27:03.660 for long or not. Those choices, eh? We're full 00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:06.720 of choices now and we need to manage those choices. 00:27:06.779 --> 00:27:09.240 For some people, you know, I've worked in big 00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:11.680 organisations where I've gone floor walking because 00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:14.940 I'm a trainer, eh? And people, I've gone so -and 00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:16.740 -so around and they go, I don't know, I don't 00:27:16.740 --> 00:27:19.240 know. Well, I've got a desk number. He sits next 00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:21.339 to you and they've gone, yeah, I don't know him 00:27:21.339 --> 00:27:23.950 though, you know? I mean... I mean, it depends. 00:27:24.069 --> 00:27:26.890 I think it's really important to understand, 00:27:27.349 --> 00:27:29.609 to get to know people and how to understand how 00:27:29.609 --> 00:27:31.930 they like to work. Some people don't like to 00:27:31.930 --> 00:27:34.549 be bombarded or being stopped, you know, but 00:27:34.549 --> 00:27:37.970 I like to wander around and find out stuff because 00:27:37.970 --> 00:27:40.549 I'm basically curious and a little bit nosy at 00:27:40.549 --> 00:27:44.849 times. I think it is, you know, it isn't a technology. 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.680 It is the individual, the person, the human partner. 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:51.099 And the reason I say this is because I had to 00:27:51.099 --> 00:27:53.940 manage a team that were completely fractious. 00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:57.279 They had five managers who had come in over a 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:00.279 two -year period who'd all left, five managers 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.880 in two years. That's high turnover. And they 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:08.700 were middle -aged women, very, very independent, 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:12.220 very forceful, and they held the whole company 00:28:12.220 --> 00:28:16.130 to ransom, this unit. And I went in there. I 00:28:16.130 --> 00:28:19.589 said, I'm happy to work with them. Went in there. 00:28:19.609 --> 00:28:22.670 We sat down at a meeting and they came in armed 00:28:22.670 --> 00:28:26.250 for a fight. And I said to them, no questions 00:28:26.250 --> 00:28:28.910 are off this table. Whatever you want to talk 00:28:28.910 --> 00:28:32.430 about, wherever, whenever, however, bring it 00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:36.069 to this table. If I can't answer it, I'll find 00:28:36.069 --> 00:28:39.930 you the answers. And the energy dissipated instantly. 00:28:40.529 --> 00:28:43.359 They felt heard. Within the team, they were not 00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:47.859 talking to one another. And there was a lot of 00:28:47.859 --> 00:28:50.240 friction because every one of them, each and 00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:53.259 every individual was a powerhouse. And then we 00:28:53.259 --> 00:28:58.180 did the simplest thing, basic thing, team building, 00:28:58.500 --> 00:29:03.220 team building. And at the end of it, these women 00:29:03.220 --> 00:29:07.359 were glowing. They were just on fire. So is it 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.940 about the technology or is it about the individual? 00:29:11.549 --> 00:29:13.630 I don't want to face this person who decided 00:29:13.630 --> 00:29:16.990 to sit in the office and go by teams. For whatever 00:29:16.990 --> 00:29:20.509 reason, I couldn't be bothered to go downstairs 00:29:20.509 --> 00:29:24.230 to sit in. And it's my job role on an important 00:29:24.230 --> 00:29:29.059 annual review. Yeah. So tech, as we know, can 00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:31.940 be used as a bit of an excuse not to connect 00:29:31.940 --> 00:29:35.160 face -to -face. I think it's important. I think 00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:37.400 any new project I work on, I always want to see 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:39.140 the people face -to -face and get to know them, 00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:41.539 even though some of the work behind it will be 00:29:41.539 --> 00:29:46.079 virtual online, because I want to build a bond 00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:48.859 and a rapport. And also, if we have issues, then 00:29:48.859 --> 00:29:51.420 they're easier to resolve and people feel heard 00:29:51.420 --> 00:29:54.099 and valued, which is where we're going. with 00:29:54.099 --> 00:29:57.279 all of this really, isn't it? Sarah, you're nodding 00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:00.559 as well, hey? Yeah, I think you're bringing up 00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:05.279 examples where the face -to -face might still 00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:07.819 be very important, right? When there is, at the 00:30:07.819 --> 00:30:09.839 beginning of a project, when there's conflict 00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.920 on team members, right? Bringing people into 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:15.400 the room, then it's really important. I think 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:18.460 there is value in doing that. But it is a relationship 00:30:18.460 --> 00:30:20.779 that is ongoing that, you know, we just wanted 00:30:20.779 --> 00:30:23.240 to catch up next week. We could do this again 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:26.079 virtually, right? As long as there's the trust 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:29.079 and there's a good working relationship, I think 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:31.259 the location, whether it's at home or in the 00:30:31.259 --> 00:30:33.920 office, won't matter. But it is super helpful 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.539 to have these original touchments, to really 00:30:36.539 --> 00:30:39.160 connect with people, get to know them, understand 00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:42.279 them, have these prolonged periods of time where 00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:45.190 we can actually... talk about other things that 00:30:45.190 --> 00:30:47.630 is not just work, right? Like to understand what 00:30:47.630 --> 00:30:49.710 is the other person, what drives them, what are 00:30:49.710 --> 00:30:52.170 they interested in? Yeah, absolutely. I agree. 00:30:52.329 --> 00:30:55.400 You know, Valerie... Valerie pointed out it's 00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:58.599 the human connection, building working relationships. 00:30:59.059 --> 00:31:02.619 That is key. That is critical. And it matters 00:31:02.619 --> 00:31:06.039 a lot that your boss or your mind manager, whoever, 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:08.619 can turn to you and say, excellent job. When 00:31:08.619 --> 00:31:11.099 they say to you face -to -face, it has much, 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:15.440 much more depth and meaning and boosts you better 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.079 than when you get it in an email or even via 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:20.559 Zoom. There's something about human connectivity 00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:24.589 that we cherish. And when we came out of lockdown, 00:31:24.869 --> 00:31:28.170 people breathed a sigh of relief that I am still 00:31:28.170 --> 00:31:30.789 alive because why? I can connect to the next 00:31:30.789 --> 00:31:35.029 person. Someone smiled at me. Yeah, I can go 00:31:35.029 --> 00:31:38.390 out. I had so much of that. Yes, I had so much 00:31:38.390 --> 00:31:41.430 of that. I'm living again. I'm alive again. And, 00:31:41.450 --> 00:31:47.150 you know, again, we communicate 80 % or a little 00:31:47.150 --> 00:31:50.549 bit more of our communication is nonverbal. It's 00:31:50.549 --> 00:31:53.930 non -verbal. It is non -verbal. Tone, expression, 00:31:54.349 --> 00:31:58.269 even attitude, you know, gestures. People say, 00:31:58.329 --> 00:32:02.190 oh, she said hello, but it was, she didn't, that 00:32:02.190 --> 00:32:08.470 wasn't a genuine hello. Oh, that's another podcast. 00:32:10.170 --> 00:32:15.430 Human connection in amongst the hybrid. We find 00:32:15.430 --> 00:32:18.529 that loneliness and disconnect is there because 00:32:18.529 --> 00:32:20.970 the human connection is not being maintained. 00:32:21.130 --> 00:32:23.349 It's not being sustained. It's not being preserved. 00:32:23.809 --> 00:32:26.190 So when we're doing the change management, there 00:32:26.190 --> 00:32:30.390 has to be. And, you know, if it's by postcodes 00:32:30.390 --> 00:32:35.230 or by zone, you know, street codes. There has 00:32:35.230 --> 00:32:37.250 to be some connection. It's a great idea. We're 00:32:37.250 --> 00:32:39.769 part of a community. We're part of a work community. 00:32:40.289 --> 00:32:43.609 Absolutely. It's not nameless and faceless, which 00:32:43.609 --> 00:32:46.529 is a lot of that is going on at the moment. Emails, 00:32:46.609 --> 00:32:52.690 nameless, faceless. Yeah. So while we're learning 00:32:52.690 --> 00:32:54.990 and changing, we have to see how we can insert 00:32:54.990 --> 00:32:58.900 that, how we can preserve that. how we can continue 00:32:58.900 --> 00:33:01.859 because humanity isn't going anywhere. Technology 00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:04.259 is going to change in another five years. I guarantee 00:33:04.259 --> 00:33:07.059 you that. Sooner than that, probably. They're 00:33:07.059 --> 00:33:09.940 going to have something else coming up. Someone 00:33:09.940 --> 00:33:14.640 said to me, AI, we ain't seen nothing yet. I 00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:18.519 thought, really? Yeah. I mean, what can we do 00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:22.980 to help? to advice we can offer to help people 00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:26.019 to understand hybrid work and learning now? You 00:33:26.019 --> 00:33:29.859 know, what are we going to have a couple of key 00:33:29.859 --> 00:33:32.619 messages, Sarah and Irma, that we'd like to, 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.859 yeah, push out there? What do you think? One 00:33:35.859 --> 00:33:38.819 point or two points? Change management. I would 00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:42.279 say change management. It's individual to company 00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:46.480 and to profession. So manage that change, talk 00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:49.640 to, find ways that work, you know, street code. 00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:52.539 Does it work to have a buddy, what do you call 00:33:52.539 --> 00:33:56.140 it, a colleague buddy that is on your team and 00:33:56.140 --> 00:33:58.579 you meet regularly, consistently, and then feed 00:33:58.579 --> 00:34:05.259 up, you know. It's an open playing field now. 00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:08.150 Sure, I agree it is. And they need to level that. 00:34:08.369 --> 00:34:11.670 Yeah, yeah. And it's a dialogue that has to continue 00:34:11.670 --> 00:34:15.409 to find solutions. Sarah? I think, you know, 00:34:15.449 --> 00:34:17.409 the learning one, right? Because we're all in 00:34:17.409 --> 00:34:20.630 learning. I think when possible to bring people... 00:34:20.829 --> 00:34:24.090 For when we're doing formal learning, if possible, 00:34:24.190 --> 00:34:26.250 to actually bring people together. I think there 00:34:26.250 --> 00:34:28.389 is value in bringing people in a room together, 00:34:28.469 --> 00:34:30.309 going through that shared experience, building 00:34:30.309 --> 00:34:33.010 new connections. So onboarding, I think is super, 00:34:33.110 --> 00:34:34.570 you know, Valerie, you were talking earlier about, 00:34:34.650 --> 00:34:37.989 you know, who you hire and trusting them. I think 00:34:37.989 --> 00:34:40.230 creating a face -to -face onboarding process 00:34:40.230 --> 00:34:42.429 where people can connect to other people across 00:34:42.429 --> 00:34:46.250 the organization, super helpful. In terms of 00:34:46.250 --> 00:34:49.730 larger, not just learning, again, I don't think 00:34:49.730 --> 00:34:52.070 all learning has to happen face -to -face, right? 00:34:52.130 --> 00:34:55.309 We are learning in a digital platform, but I 00:34:55.309 --> 00:34:58.510 do think learning that is supported with the 00:34:58.510 --> 00:35:01.829 face -to -face is a much better learning experience 00:35:01.829 --> 00:35:05.329 than learning that is just digital or self -driven. 00:35:05.489 --> 00:35:07.409 I think there's been a big push about this, like 00:35:07.409 --> 00:35:10.030 self -development, self -driven, do -it -yourself 00:35:10.030 --> 00:35:12.659 kind of tools. And we know that learning is a 00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:15.559 social process. We learn through others and with 00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:17.900 others, right? So I think bringing the social 00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:20.219 aspect that you guys have been talking about 00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:22.099 a lot, right? This connecting, this belonging, 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.519 bringing that social aspect into all the learning 00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:27.699 opportunities in an organization and being very 00:35:27.699 --> 00:35:31.119 intentional about it. I think it's really important. 00:35:31.539 --> 00:35:34.460 I also think, and I'll go just to do Valerie 00:35:34.460 --> 00:35:37.780 in a second, but I also think that really reconsidering 00:35:37.780 --> 00:35:42.360 what people need to do. on an office and what 00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:45.699 can be done remotely or from home. And really 00:35:45.699 --> 00:35:48.519 thinking deeply, I think earlier in the conversation, 00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:51.000 we were talking about brainstorming. I think 00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:52.860 brainstorming is probably one of those things 00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:54.920 where it's still better to be face -to -face 00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:57.559 because just like we're experiencing right now, 00:35:57.659 --> 00:35:59.900 it's very hard to talk over one another. We're 00:35:59.900 --> 00:36:01.500 constantly interrupting each other. The mics 00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:04.039 get overlapped. So the technology is not quite 00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:07.250 there. for what we're doing, which cannot be 00:36:07.250 --> 00:36:09.449 complicated when it's happening face -to -face, 00:36:09.610 --> 00:36:12.610 right? So I think companies have to be much more 00:36:12.610 --> 00:36:14.630 intentional about what is it that we want people 00:36:14.630 --> 00:36:17.690 to do in our physical offices and what things 00:36:17.690 --> 00:36:20.929 that can be done offline. Valerie, what do you 00:36:20.929 --> 00:36:24.389 think? I think that learners, or we call them 00:36:24.389 --> 00:36:26.829 learners, anybody who's in our environment, really, 00:36:26.929 --> 00:36:30.550 that we're all learning every day. I think we 00:36:30.550 --> 00:36:35.719 need to have the... We need to have the voice 00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:37.579 to say, yeah, I'm going to take ownership for 00:36:37.579 --> 00:36:40.219 my learning, but this is how I like to learn 00:36:40.219 --> 00:36:43.340 or this is what will work better for me. And 00:36:43.340 --> 00:36:45.780 it's all about communication and open dialogue 00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:50.679 and trying to be flexible and also get a great 00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:56.719 job done. Yeah, this is true. And also be sensitive 00:36:56.719 --> 00:37:00.420 or mindful of... who you're employing, you know, 00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:02.519 as you said, a recruitment project. So women, 00:37:02.659 --> 00:37:04.920 as I said, coming into the workforce, more and 00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.440 more women. And, you know, if they go off and 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.639 want to have families, start a family, where 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:13.570 does that sit? Well, you know, we've all got 00:37:13.570 --> 00:37:15.630 so many, we've got five generations of work in 00:37:15.630 --> 00:37:18.329 the workforce. And on top of that, you know, 00:37:18.369 --> 00:37:20.949 I mean, as our learned leader, Andrew, would 00:37:20.949 --> 00:37:23.110 say, I've got an iPhone that's older than some 00:37:23.110 --> 00:37:25.489 of the newest recruits we've got. So, I mean, 00:37:25.510 --> 00:37:28.510 it just says it all. Listen, I could talk forever, 00:37:28.650 --> 00:37:30.929 but I'm going to, I guess we need to wrap this 00:37:30.929 --> 00:37:33.849 up for the man. Thank you so much. Thank you, 00:37:33.849 --> 00:37:35.670 Irma. Thank you, Sarah. This has been an absolute 00:37:35.670 --> 00:37:37.489 delight. And thank you to all our listeners. 00:37:38.110 --> 00:37:41.980 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure. It's 00:37:41.980 --> 00:37:44.420 been amazing. It's been amazing, ladies. I've 00:37:44.420 --> 00:37:47.099 learned so much from both of you. Thank you. 00:37:47.260 --> 00:37:53.340 Thank you. What came through from our guests? 00:37:53.659 --> 00:37:56.559 That change management actually matters, not 00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:58.760 as a box -ticking exercise, but as something 00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:01.539 you have to get right. That there's a genuine 00:38:01.539 --> 00:38:04.800 tension between giving people flexibility and 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.940 keeping some organisational grip on things. And 00:38:07.940 --> 00:38:10.480 that trust sits underneath all of it. Without 00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:14.300 it? None of the hybrid stuff really works. If 00:38:14.300 --> 00:38:15.960 you're trying to make sense of this hybrid era, 00:38:16.099 --> 00:38:18.699 whether you're leading a team or a part of one, 00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:21.079 these are the things worth paying attention to. 00:38:22.260 --> 00:38:25.320 A massive thank you to Sarah, Valerie and Irma 00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:28.039 for their insight into this topic and for their 00:38:28.039 --> 00:38:30.940 time in making this a brilliant recording. Their 00:38:30.940 --> 00:38:33.179 details are in the show notes, along with information 00:38:33.179 --> 00:38:35.179 about how to connect with us here at Women Talking 00:38:35.179 --> 00:38:37.780 About Learning and the podcast Learning Festival 00:38:37.780 --> 00:38:41.579 next month. remember to like and subscribe to 00:38:41.579 --> 00:38:43.880 the podcast on your podcast player it really 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:46.380 does make a difference in helping people find 00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:49.260 and recommend us so hit that five star button 00:38:49.260 --> 00:38:52.239 we'll be back in a couple of weeks and next time 00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:56.780 it's the appearing on video one as always thanks 00:38:56.780 --> 00:38:58.659 for listening and we'll see you again soon