WEBVTT 00:00:01.290 --> 00:00:05.629 Before we start, a very quick pause. On the 26th 00:00:05.629 --> 00:00:07.530 of February, the Podcast Learning Festival is 00:00:07.530 --> 00:00:10.410 launching in London. It's a full day for people 00:00:10.410 --> 00:00:13.689 who use audio to think, learn and change how 00:00:13.689 --> 00:00:16.989 work gets done. This isn't about podcast hype, 00:00:17.109 --> 00:00:20.089 but conversations that travel, decisions that 00:00:20.089 --> 00:00:22.870 will stick and learning that both sounds and 00:00:22.870 --> 00:00:26.750 is human. It's put around three themes, talk, 00:00:26.910 --> 00:00:33.469 record and change. Learning, people or comms 00:00:33.469 --> 00:00:36.070 plays any role in your work, then this will be 00:00:36.070 --> 00:00:39.890 your room. Details and tickets are at podcastlearningfest 00:00:39.890 --> 00:00:42.909 .live and the links in the show notes. Right, 00:00:43.030 --> 00:00:57.590 let's get into the episode. Hello everyone and 00:00:57.590 --> 00:01:00.500 welcome to this episode. the lost one of the 00:01:00.500 --> 00:01:02.780 Women Talking About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew 00:01:02.780 --> 00:01:05.519 Jacobs. Throughout our lives, all of us will 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.560 encounter some form of loss. And in this episode, 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:11.519 we're going to hear an incredibly heartfelt discussion 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:14.959 with three women who share their very personal 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:18.060 journeys through loss and exploring how sorrow 00:01:18.060 --> 00:01:21.120 can lead to unexpected growth and how it shapes 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:24.920 our lives. Our first guest is Kirsty Lewis, the 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:27.640 founder of the School of Facilitation. She's 00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:29.980 known for her passion for designing and delivering 00:01:29.980 --> 00:01:32.819 brilliant workshops that create purpose, ownership, 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:36.840 safety and engagement. She is a convener of freelance 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:39.599 facilitators and trainers through the School 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:41.780 of Facilitation Collective, while supporting 00:01:41.780 --> 00:01:44.040 corporate clients to evolve their learning game. 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:48.859 Our second guest is Edejei Onwude. Edejei is 00:01:48.859 --> 00:01:51.739 a Nigerian -born, UK -based communications leader 00:01:51.739 --> 00:01:55.299 whose career spans brand, culture and organisational 00:01:55.299 --> 00:01:58.150 change. For over 10 years, she built and led 00:01:58.150 --> 00:02:00.549 brand work for global organisations, including 00:02:00.549 --> 00:02:04.329 Coca -Cola and Reckitt. More recently, her focus 00:02:04.329 --> 00:02:06.730 has shifted to the broader human side of comms, 00:02:06.750 --> 00:02:10.490 ensuring what organisations say aligns with the 00:02:10.490 --> 00:02:13.830 experience of their employees, partners and stakeholders. 00:02:14.509 --> 00:02:18.129 Our last guest is Stella Collins. Stella is an 00:02:18.129 --> 00:02:19.969 internationally acclaimed learning strategist 00:02:19.969 --> 00:02:23.289 dedicated to transforming performance and productivity 00:02:23.289 --> 00:02:26.900 in the workplace. She has spent 30 years working 00:02:26.900 --> 00:02:29.039 at the intersection of people, neuroscience, 00:02:29.620 --> 00:02:33.280 AI, data and technology to deliver actionable 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:36.639 results. She is valued for her strategic advice 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:39.740 and unique ability to make complex ideas accessible 00:02:39.740 --> 00:02:44.360 and relevant. This is challenging, visceral and 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:48.699 a simply wonderful conversation about loss. Please 00:02:48.699 --> 00:02:52.560 do take time to listen through it fully. Recorded 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:55.840 at the end of November 2025. This is women talking 00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:59.819 about learning. This is Kirsty, Edejay and Stella 00:02:59.819 --> 00:03:04.500 talking about loss. Hello, Kirsty and Edejay. 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:07.520 It's really interesting that Andrew's kind of 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:10.099 brought us together to have this conversation. 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:13.659 So I'm really curious, what made you want to 00:03:13.659 --> 00:03:19.080 have a conversation about loss? Well, for me, 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:23.159 it was... I guess, the birth of school of facilitation 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:25.960 coming from the loss of my mum because she passed 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:29.860 away. And I wanted to share that and how good 00:03:29.860 --> 00:03:33.340 stuff can come when we lose something. That's 00:03:33.340 --> 00:03:37.879 a good one. So for me, it was from falling out 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:41.620 of love with a career that I absolutely loved. 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:45.900 I think this is not something that's talked about 00:03:45.900 --> 00:03:50.000 enough just because we don't. associate as much 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.379 importance to it but if a career is something 00:03:53.379 --> 00:03:56.620 that you take very seriously and we spend so 00:03:56.620 --> 00:03:58.680 much of our time there I think it's something 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:00.879 we need to talk about a little bit more so that's 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:03.460 why I'm here yeah love it how about you Stella 00:04:03.460 --> 00:04:07.580 and for me it was because despite the fact I'm 00:04:07.580 --> 00:04:10.560 a very positive or I see myself as a positive 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.139 resilient person I've had a lot of loss over 00:04:14.139 --> 00:04:18.639 the last eight years and And I guess it has taught 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:21.220 me I am a resilient person. So I was just curious 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:24.360 to sort of explore almost what other people have 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:28.000 felt about loss, really, as well as my own. Explore 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.040 perhaps a little bit of my own feelings about 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:35.759 it. We all got our each. Each of us got an example 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:40.220 of loss or many examples, Stella. What does it 00:04:40.220 --> 00:04:46.920 actually mean to us to lose X, Y, Z? What does 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:50.519 that actually mean? That's a good question. I 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:54.300 would, yeah, I would say if I were to jump in 00:04:54.300 --> 00:04:59.519 there, to lose something, for it to, I would 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:03.879 say it has to mean something to you so that when 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:08.420 it leaves. It leaves a vacuum or it leaves something 00:05:08.420 --> 00:05:11.259 that makes you feel like I've lost it. So for 00:05:11.259 --> 00:05:14.160 instance, we lose things every day. I could lose 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.339 20 pounds and yeah, it's nothing. But if I were 00:05:17.339 --> 00:05:19.920 to lose much more than that, then it will mean 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:22.259 something. So I think for something to be considered 00:05:22.259 --> 00:05:25.620 loss, it has to mean something to you to some 00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:28.660 extent that it creates a vacuum when it goes. 00:05:28.980 --> 00:05:32.680 I think the vacuum is interesting. I think it 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:36.769 creates change. You can have change from things 00:05:36.769 --> 00:05:40.269 that you do that are something you gain. But 00:05:40.269 --> 00:05:43.769 I think it creates change. And then I'm just 00:05:43.769 --> 00:05:46.290 really interested in what you said, Kirsty, about 00:05:46.290 --> 00:05:50.730 it started off your school of facilitation because 00:05:50.730 --> 00:05:53.110 your mum... Does it leave a vacuum that you can 00:05:53.110 --> 00:05:56.649 then fill with something else? No, I don't think 00:05:56.649 --> 00:05:59.870 it does. I was just going to say, for me, the 00:05:59.870 --> 00:06:02.769 lost thing is a feeling. So it's like there is 00:06:02.769 --> 00:06:06.990 a... something that happens so the loss of uh 00:06:06.990 --> 00:06:09.990 the 20 pounds but i would get then have a feeling 00:06:09.990 --> 00:06:12.750 of being irritated that i'd lost it so i think 00:06:12.750 --> 00:06:15.949 for me the loss element is then an emote it's 00:06:15.949 --> 00:06:18.790 like it's the trigger is the losing of the something 00:06:18.790 --> 00:06:20.970 and then there's an emotion and then there's 00:06:20.970 --> 00:06:25.509 a set of um i was gonna say actions or unintended 00:06:25.509 --> 00:06:28.550 consequences that then occur because of that 00:06:28.550 --> 00:06:31.529 loss and i think it's how we then relate to those 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:36.300 what comes after the loss yeah and I think that's 00:06:36.300 --> 00:06:39.620 probably some of for each of us our stories as 00:06:39.620 --> 00:06:41.699 to why we're here today is like what happens 00:06:41.699 --> 00:06:45.540 after we um lose a parent I just have to get 00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:49.579 this joke in by the way um someone said to me 00:06:49.579 --> 00:06:52.579 once like I heard it on the radio like when when 00:06:52.579 --> 00:06:55.459 someone passes away and dies a lot of people 00:06:55.459 --> 00:06:57.439 go I'm really sorry for your loss and this comedian 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:00.379 just said I didn't bloody leave her in the Tesco 00:07:00.379 --> 00:07:03.759 shopping aisle, you know, like they died. And 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:05.920 so whenever I hear the word loss in association 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:09.160 with someone dying, I just sort of roll my eyes 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:11.279 and giggle. Cause I'm just like, I haven't left 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:17.000 my mom in Tesco or Asda. It's much more serious 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:19.319 than that. It's a little bit more profound than 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:23.000 that. I actually prefer to say the person died 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:25.540 because I think they passed on, they passed away. 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:29.649 They were lost. It doesn't describe it. I think 00:07:29.649 --> 00:07:33.050 they died. Yeah. But people don't want to have 00:07:33.050 --> 00:07:38.089 that conversation, Stella. No. Yes. No, no, I 00:07:38.089 --> 00:07:40.269 find it's a difficult conversation for a lot 00:07:40.269 --> 00:07:43.610 of people. That's why we tend to soften it a 00:07:43.610 --> 00:07:46.069 little bit, you know, with different language 00:07:46.069 --> 00:07:48.870 that makes it easier. But like you said, just 00:07:48.870 --> 00:07:52.550 say the person died is an easier way of landing 00:07:52.550 --> 00:07:56.189 the message. And I would say anyone listening 00:07:56.189 --> 00:07:59.149 to this who hasn't necessarily had the experience 00:07:59.149 --> 00:08:03.069 of someone close dying, but you may have friends 00:08:03.069 --> 00:08:06.149 and it's really tempting to go in and all soft. 00:08:06.230 --> 00:08:08.649 Either people don't speak about it at all or 00:08:08.649 --> 00:08:10.829 they will speak about it, but they, to your point, 00:08:10.870 --> 00:08:13.170 you know, it's a softening of language. I want 00:08:13.170 --> 00:08:17.350 you to know it's shit. It is really shit. And 00:08:17.350 --> 00:08:21.329 so please just be direct and just say, how are 00:08:21.329 --> 00:08:24.420 you today? Not how are you, but how are you today? 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:29.579 Because every day changes with the passing of 00:08:29.579 --> 00:08:32.460 time or if you're in a space where my mom's at 00:08:32.460 --> 00:08:35.620 a hospice. So you go through different emotions. 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:39.500 And then the other thing as well is if you are 00:08:39.500 --> 00:08:42.879 grappling with your own existential crisis of 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.919 a friend's parent has passed or someone and you're 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:48.990 not too sure what to say, maybe it's okay. just 00:08:48.990 --> 00:08:51.289 to acknowledge it and even just go, I find this 00:08:51.289 --> 00:08:53.769 really hard. And your friend will probably go, 00:08:53.970 --> 00:08:57.549 yes, it is. It is bloody hard. And you'll have 00:08:57.549 --> 00:08:59.429 a conversation about that. I would rather that 00:08:59.429 --> 00:09:03.570 than everyone just nicely, nicely placate. I 00:09:03.570 --> 00:09:07.090 agree. That's a good point. Much better to have 00:09:07.090 --> 00:09:10.309 somebody acknowledge that it's, I actually think 00:09:10.309 --> 00:09:13.490 it's not even a feeling for me. It's a pain. 00:09:14.669 --> 00:09:17.490 So I lost both my parents in the last couple 00:09:17.490 --> 00:09:19.940 of years. And it's a pain, even though you expect 00:09:19.940 --> 00:09:23.200 it to happen. You know, they weren't young. And 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:26.879 I'm not young, but it still was painful. We also 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:31.200 lost, we moved house. In the process, we moved 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:35.139 countries. In the process, all our favorite items 00:09:35.139 --> 00:09:37.080 we'd put in storage, all the things that mattered 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:39.559 to us, not the rubbish that you could get rid 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:42.990 of. And there was a fire. So we lost. all of 00:09:42.990 --> 00:09:45.850 our possessions that we had ever, you know, all 00:09:45.850 --> 00:09:47.690 the things we collected over the years, the things 00:09:47.690 --> 00:09:50.929 that meant something, were all lost. And that's 00:09:50.929 --> 00:09:54.990 painful. It felt like a pain. And I'm not really 00:09:54.990 --> 00:09:58.850 a possession type person, but that's still a 00:09:58.850 --> 00:10:01.909 pain. Yeah. Is it like the memories that were 00:10:01.909 --> 00:10:05.610 in those items that when you would look at them, 00:10:05.629 --> 00:10:09.110 it's like, oh yeah, that and that. And it's the 00:10:09.110 --> 00:10:11.169 loss of the memories because once they've gone, 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:13.840 you're really having to rely on your memory. 00:10:13.899 --> 00:10:16.039 You can't rely anymore on the thing triggering 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:19.779 a memory. And now if you do think of that thing, 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:22.679 yes, you can bring back the original memory, 00:10:22.860 --> 00:10:25.700 which was usually a good memory, but then you 00:10:25.700 --> 00:10:28.000 have the memory that goes with it, which is the 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.440 lost memory, the pain. Yeah. And that's true 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:36.620 of losing parents too. Yeah, yeah. I was just 00:10:36.620 --> 00:10:39.980 going to say something around when it's a... 00:10:40.169 --> 00:10:43.710 different kind of loss, especially like, for 00:10:43.710 --> 00:10:47.350 instance, you mentioned the loss from property. 00:10:47.649 --> 00:10:49.669 That's not something a lot of people can relate 00:10:49.669 --> 00:10:52.889 to. Some people might not even see it as anything, 00:10:53.169 --> 00:10:57.730 but it's a huge loss to you. So my friend lost 00:10:57.730 --> 00:11:02.389 her husband years ago. Her husband died. Language. 00:11:04.889 --> 00:11:07.450 Her husband died a few years ago and she wrote 00:11:07.450 --> 00:11:11.879 a book about the journey. of going through the 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:14.460 grief and coming out on the other side. And one 00:11:14.460 --> 00:11:17.379 of the things she mentioned is sometimes you 00:11:17.379 --> 00:11:21.120 can't understand it. Words, no words you say 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:27.019 can actually make it easier or make it any different 00:11:27.019 --> 00:11:29.840 from how the person is feeling. So what she said 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.419 was one of the people that made the most impact 00:11:32.419 --> 00:11:37.460 was just there. She came and she sat. No words, 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:41.360 nothing. just know that I'm here with you I'm 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:43.799 here if you need to talk if you need anything 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:47.139 I'm here but I have no words nothing to say to 00:11:47.139 --> 00:11:49.799 actually capture what you're going through so 00:11:49.799 --> 00:11:52.679 in those kind of situations sometimes just presence 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:56.820 is enough because especially when you can't understand 00:11:56.820 --> 00:12:01.919 it you know yeah I like that I found hugs really 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:06.720 helped yes I was thinking that it's it's almost 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:10.360 like somebody If you've got a sore arm, people 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:12.179 pat it, you stroke it, don't you? And I found 00:12:12.179 --> 00:12:16.019 that hugs really, really helped. They didn't 00:12:16.019 --> 00:12:17.659 need to say anything. You're quite right, AJ. 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:23.759 If they just hugged you, that was enough. Yeah, 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:27.340 yeah. I'd say if I were to say something about 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:34.779 hugs and my slightly different loss. So at the 00:12:34.779 --> 00:12:38.139 time I was grappling with... maybe there's something 00:12:38.139 --> 00:12:43.379 wrong with me I had my sister had just moved 00:12:43.379 --> 00:12:46.580 to the UK as well and some days I would just 00:12:46.580 --> 00:12:50.419 go to her house and just sit there with her because 00:12:50.419 --> 00:12:53.940 again I didn't feel like I could I could fully 00:12:53.940 --> 00:12:58.240 articulate what I was going through because I 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:00.559 was in a great job you know it's not anything 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:03.700 you can explain to anybody because I was in a 00:13:03.700 --> 00:13:08.340 great job doing what I have always done And it 00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:13.000 just felt wrong. If I explained it to anybody, 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.399 it felt like you're not grateful. Everything 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.379 is going great for you. What is wrong with you? 00:13:18.539 --> 00:13:22.879 So in that situation, I found just being in the 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:27.480 presence of people to be great. Just being in 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:29.360 the presence of people that I knew loved me. 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:34.480 would listen if I was ever willing to talk about 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:38.159 it. It did help. So that presence and just being 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.899 with your people makes a huge difference when 00:13:40.899 --> 00:13:42.799 you're going through something, especially if 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:45.299 it's something not everybody else can understand. 00:13:46.860 --> 00:13:50.419 What was the emotion, Edejay, that, you know, 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:54.039 looking backwards now, that you associate with 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:58.220 that time of, I get you didn't know quite, but 00:13:58.220 --> 00:14:00.820 it was like... the job or you knew the job wasn't 00:14:00.820 --> 00:14:02.879 there but what was the emotion that was around 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:06.399 that for you I would say the biggest one was 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:11.820 fear because I knew at the at the time I had 00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:14.279 landed on the fact that okay I don't want to 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:17.340 do this anymore I didn't know what it is I wanted 00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:21.299 to do so I was afraid that I was losing my entire 00:14:21.299 --> 00:14:24.659 career like everything I had worked for was gone 00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:28.110 and there was nowhere I could go from here So 00:14:28.110 --> 00:14:31.190 it was, I would say fear was the biggest thing. 00:14:31.250 --> 00:14:36.090 Like I have worked so hard for nothing. Yeah. 00:14:36.190 --> 00:14:39.750 And that's why it took me a while to even say 00:14:39.750 --> 00:14:43.070 it out because saying it out felt like admitting 00:14:43.070 --> 00:14:45.470 that everything I had worked for was in vain 00:14:45.470 --> 00:14:50.549 and I wouldn't be able to do anything after this. 00:14:51.090 --> 00:14:53.409 Wow. I had the same and different experience 00:14:53.409 --> 00:14:57.360 when I was at Diageo. I went to a friend, this 00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:00.000 is how I left. I went to a friend's workshop 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.600 and I was meant to have an outcome and we were 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.259 going to shape this outcome all day. And so I 00:15:06.259 --> 00:15:10.259 made one up and I literally said, I am a NLP 00:15:10.259 --> 00:15:14.440 trainer and coach and I am £5 ,000 a month. And 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:17.679 literally, this was like 2007, I said that. And 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:21.120 I didn't mean it, or so I thought. And I left 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:23.960 that evening. And I was cycling home because 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:27.519 I lived in London. And I was like, oh, I think 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:31.519 I actually do want to do that. And so an element 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:33.220 of my fear then came through of like, it was 00:15:33.220 --> 00:15:36.120 an emotion. And it was like, that wasn't the 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:37.759 intention of being there that day. I was there 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:39.820 to support my friend who was creating a workshop 00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:42.559 and testing it. But then a different kind of 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:46.080 loss. It wasn't a loss, but it was like a 180 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.879 turn. And then the fear bit for me as well, it's 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:51.950 like, where did that come from? understand in 00:15:51.950 --> 00:15:54.809 a slight way yeah like what what are people gonna 00:15:54.809 --> 00:15:56.970 think but I didn't tell my parents for months 00:15:56.970 --> 00:16:00.029 because I had to come up with a plan exactly 00:16:00.029 --> 00:16:05.490 exactly and I think a lot of times our for that 00:16:05.490 --> 00:16:08.909 for I don't want to sound woo woo basically but 00:16:08.909 --> 00:16:11.909 it feels like a lot of times our heart knows 00:16:11.909 --> 00:16:15.730 things before it actually gets to our brain so 00:16:15.730 --> 00:16:19.450 a lot of times we know things but We're not yet 00:16:19.450 --> 00:16:21.929 ready to admit it, so it hasn't yet transmitted 00:16:21.929 --> 00:16:25.509 to here. So I'm sure when you said what you said, 00:16:25.590 --> 00:16:27.830 you thought you were making things up, but it 00:16:27.830 --> 00:16:31.669 was probably your subconscious bringing to the 00:16:31.669 --> 00:16:34.429 front what you actually did want to do. So yeah, 00:16:34.470 --> 00:16:37.990 that's quite interesting. Yeah. My dad, when 00:16:37.990 --> 00:16:40.049 I did tell him, this wasn't the first thing he 00:16:40.049 --> 00:16:42.500 said, but I still... imagine it was he was like 00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:45.240 does that mean you're gonna lose your BA gold 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:49.120 card because I traveled globally and I went yeah 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:52.620 it probably does mean that dad but uh it just 00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:55.940 made me laugh uh Cello you you said you've had 00:16:55.940 --> 00:16:59.480 like eight eight years of of loss and and you 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:02.159 shared about your mom and dad dying about your 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:06.960 possessions your house like burning is dare I 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:12.440 ask is there anything else Yes. Yeah, it was 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:18.319 not a good eight years. I also lost the opportunity 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:21.980 to go to our daughter's wedding. And that was 00:17:21.980 --> 00:17:25.180 because at around that time, I was diagnosed 00:17:25.180 --> 00:17:28.440 with breast cancer, which was, you know, okay, 00:17:28.460 --> 00:17:30.460 not great, but I was kind of dealing with it 00:17:30.460 --> 00:17:33.259 because I knew it was early. But I needed to 00:17:33.259 --> 00:17:36.619 have an operation and it was during COVID. And 00:17:36.619 --> 00:17:39.539 it was just around that Christmas time when... 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:42.059 That first Christmas in the UK, everything was 00:17:42.059 --> 00:17:44.900 crazy. So we went to the UK. We went into quarantine 00:17:44.900 --> 00:17:47.359 for 10 days because that's what you had to do 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:49.940 at that point. Ready to come out to have Christmas 00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:51.740 together. And my daughter was getting married 00:17:51.740 --> 00:17:56.660 on Christmas Eve, our daughter. And then suddenly 00:17:56.660 --> 00:17:58.579 at the same time, France said, we're closing 00:17:58.579 --> 00:18:00.839 all the borders because there was a new virus. 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:03.920 And we thought, well, I need to get back because 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:06.200 I've got an appointment on Christmas, on New 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:07.680 Year's Eve. I have an appointment on New Year's 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.779 Eve for an operation. So we had to leave just 00:18:10.779 --> 00:18:15.140 like that. And now I wish, of course, I just 00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:17.359 said, oh, damn it, I could have just gone to 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:19.259 the wedding and, you know, forgotten the appointment 00:18:19.259 --> 00:18:20.940 or I could have had the appointment a bit later. 00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:23.759 But we didn't know how long the borders would 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:26.079 be shut. We didn't know anything at that time. 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:29.259 So, yeah, so that was another loss. That was 00:18:29.259 --> 00:18:32.160 not a great one either. And then, yeah, in the 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.480 last few years, I think probably, you know, Kirsty 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.160 and I had a... A business that I loved, I was 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:40.039 very inspired by. And sadly, we had to shut that 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:44.079 this year. So that was another loss of money, 00:18:44.220 --> 00:18:50.779 identity, pride. That's a lot. That's a lot in 00:18:50.779 --> 00:18:58.500 eight years. Exactly. Can I ask, how do you manage 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:03.869 to wake up in the morning and still move? What 00:19:03.869 --> 00:19:06.690 is it you tell yourself that makes you wake up 00:19:06.690 --> 00:19:09.269 and move? Because usually what I think is whenever 00:19:09.269 --> 00:19:11.109 I'm going through a tough time, I tell myself 00:19:11.109 --> 00:19:14.609 it will soon pass. You know, just wake up, it 00:19:14.609 --> 00:19:16.950 will pass. But if you're getting it back to back 00:19:16.950 --> 00:19:19.910 for eight solid years, how do you keep going? 00:19:20.549 --> 00:19:23.809 What do you tell yourself to still wake up? I 00:19:23.809 --> 00:19:27.549 don't think I tell myself anything. Like I said 00:19:27.549 --> 00:19:30.289 earlier, I think I'm quite resilient. I wake 00:19:30.289 --> 00:19:33.539 up in the morning. Every day is a new day. And 00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:35.319 you've still got to do the stuff you have to 00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:37.940 do. So you have to get up to do, or I feel I 00:19:37.940 --> 00:19:40.339 have to get up to do those things, whether it's 00:19:40.339 --> 00:19:43.000 make a cup of tea or, you know, whatever it might 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:46.940 be. And then I think I'm a very full, you know, 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:50.519 I think about the future more than I think about 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:53.579 the past. So, you know, even with those things 00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:55.519 happening, I'm thinking, well, how do we deal 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:58.519 with that? You know, okay, so. You know, you're 00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:00.079 going to have to get through the funeral. You're 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:02.640 going to have to tell people. You're going to 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.940 have to. So I think it's about what are the actions 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:08.160 I'm going to have to take as a consequence of 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:12.960 this that just get me taking those actions and 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:16.299 getting up and continuing to move. Because one 00:20:16.299 --> 00:20:18.039 of you said earlier on, there's always a consequence 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:22.460 to a loss and that it leaves a gap of some sort 00:20:22.460 --> 00:20:25.119 that needs filling in some way or it's the actions 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:26.880 that need to be taken. I think that's, yeah. 00:20:27.390 --> 00:20:28.589 Do you know what? I've not really thought about 00:20:28.589 --> 00:20:31.470 that. But I think it's the fact things need to 00:20:31.470 --> 00:20:34.789 happen, so you have to get them done. And do 00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:37.670 you then give yourself permission to grieve? 00:20:38.170 --> 00:20:40.509 I don't think I give myself as much permission 00:20:40.509 --> 00:20:44.109 as I should give myself. That's interesting. 00:20:45.430 --> 00:20:49.509 And I think what I... This is the first time 00:20:49.509 --> 00:20:51.670 I've probably shared most of this publicly. People 00:20:51.670 --> 00:20:53.970 may or may not know. Some people may or may not 00:20:53.970 --> 00:20:57.670 know. Because I... Don't particularly want to 00:20:57.670 --> 00:21:00.250 tell other people these things because they may 00:21:00.250 --> 00:21:03.990 have worse, different things that are impacting 00:21:03.990 --> 00:21:07.210 on them. And I don't want to impact on, you know, 00:21:07.250 --> 00:21:10.029 their, if they might be having a good day and 00:21:10.029 --> 00:21:11.390 I don't want to impact on their good day. And 00:21:11.390 --> 00:21:13.309 if they're having a bad day, I don't want to 00:21:13.309 --> 00:21:16.250 impact on their bad day. I can tell you one very 00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:18.630 quick story that not long after all this stuff 00:21:18.630 --> 00:21:21.730 burned down, Notre Dame Cathedral burned down 00:21:21.730 --> 00:21:25.420 and it really pissed me off. Because there was 00:21:25.420 --> 00:21:27.720 all this fuss about it. I mean, I was upset too. 00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:30.259 It was a terrible thing to happen. But there 00:21:30.259 --> 00:21:33.640 was so much public noise and, oh, we feel so 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:35.900 sorry for the people of Paris and things. And 00:21:35.900 --> 00:21:39.220 I'm thinking, I've got my own little problem 00:21:39.220 --> 00:21:43.900 here and just shut up about Notre Dame. But that 00:21:43.900 --> 00:21:46.339 happens for many people. They have a loss in 00:21:46.339 --> 00:21:50.299 their lives that is impacted on by a bigger thing 00:21:50.299 --> 00:21:54.180 that's happening globally. And they get... But 00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:57.039 I am going to say I'm noticing, Stella, is you 00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.519 deflected on the answer about have you given 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:01.579 yourself permission to grieve? Because grieving 00:22:01.579 --> 00:22:03.680 isn't a group thing. Grieving is an individual 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.380 thing. Yeah. And like giving yourself that permission. 00:22:06.500 --> 00:22:09.940 All of us, by the way. Etta J, you as well, like 00:22:09.940 --> 00:22:12.640 the transition out of the corporate career, you 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.259 potentially, I don't know whether it was you 00:22:15.259 --> 00:22:16.920 who thought you would have that or your parents. 00:22:18.099 --> 00:22:21.089 And same with my mum. It's like. I got called 00:22:21.089 --> 00:22:23.750 out by my mentor after two years after mum had 00:22:23.750 --> 00:22:26.490 passed away and said, I don't think you've grieved 00:22:26.490 --> 00:22:27.950 your mum, Kirsty. You've done a very good job 00:22:27.950 --> 00:22:30.769 of putting it in a box and pushing it to one 00:22:30.769 --> 00:22:33.849 side. And she gifted me a coaching session with 00:22:33.849 --> 00:22:36.049 a really remarkable woman called Judy Wilkins 00:22:36.049 --> 00:22:38.849 -Smith, pocket rocket of a South African based 00:22:38.849 --> 00:22:42.269 in Phoenix. We literally did some systemic work, 00:22:42.450 --> 00:22:46.799 family work, and it just helped me unlock. and 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.140 noticed some patterns I'd been holding and some 00:22:50.140 --> 00:22:52.680 things. And then I went on a deep journey of 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:56.880 understanding that. But that's when SOF was birthed. 00:22:57.619 --> 00:23:03.059 And so I do wonder, I'd say all three of us, 00:23:03.099 --> 00:23:06.039 because of our upbringings, our backgrounds, 00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:09.339 how we show up, we'll be like, no, no, it's fine. 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:15.109 I'm fine. I've got this sorted. aka I might have 00:23:15.109 --> 00:23:17.309 I've given myself a pity party I might have had 00:23:17.309 --> 00:23:20.630 a little cry but that's enough yes and now I 00:23:20.630 --> 00:23:22.910 put it in a box and I'm moving on because I get 00:23:22.910 --> 00:23:25.150 struck by all three of us being future focused 00:23:25.150 --> 00:23:28.769 but I do think there is sometimes we need to 00:23:28.769 --> 00:23:32.170 I genuinely do because if we suppress what's 00:23:32.170 --> 00:23:35.190 happened it's got it goes into the body somewhere 00:23:35.190 --> 00:23:39.440 this is my belief and um if we don't release 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:43.180 that emotion from the body, it's got to transmute 00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:46.059 into something. And more often than not, my belief 00:23:46.059 --> 00:23:49.519 is it makes me sick, whether that's a cold or 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:54.140 sore throat or worse. And I don't know. I just 00:23:54.140 --> 00:23:55.900 think there's benefit for all three of us to 00:23:55.900 --> 00:24:00.220 not do it publicly by any stretch, Stella. And 00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:02.900 I would encourage us all to work through it in 00:24:02.900 --> 00:24:06.819 our way. I think for me, I think I've worked 00:24:06.819 --> 00:24:10.440 through it, but not in a crying sort of way. 00:24:10.500 --> 00:24:14.640 I think walking, having a day of not really doing 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:19.460 anything. Nice. Yeah. I think everybody has their 00:24:19.460 --> 00:24:23.099 way, basically, of dealing with these things, 00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:26.180 basically. Some people might be completely crashed 00:24:26.180 --> 00:24:30.700 out. Other people... dealing with it in some 00:24:30.700 --> 00:24:33.299 in some other way but you're right Kirstie in 00:24:33.299 --> 00:24:35.099 terms of the fact that if you don't deal with 00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:39.460 it it will deal with you for lack of a better 00:24:39.460 --> 00:24:43.440 way to to say it and it same thing happened to 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:47.819 me basically I would say for three years I was 00:24:47.819 --> 00:24:50.220 on this journey of I don't like what I'm doing 00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:52.339 but I don't know what the problem is. You know, 00:24:52.339 --> 00:24:55.160 I would say the first year what I did was to 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.720 change jobs because I thought that was the issue. 00:24:57.759 --> 00:24:59.539 It's the organization. There's something wrong 00:24:59.539 --> 00:25:02.859 there. And I moved from one organization to the 00:25:02.859 --> 00:25:05.339 other. And in six months, I was in the same place 00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:08.319 again. You know, that kind of thing. And because 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:12.039 I didn't do anything about it. What happened 00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:14.920 basically was I just kept going down, down, down, 00:25:15.099 --> 00:25:18.099 down, down, you know, and it got to a point where 00:25:18.099 --> 00:25:20.519 something that was so easy for me to do, like 00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:22.660 I could do with my eyes closed, I couldn't do 00:25:22.660 --> 00:25:25.359 it anymore. So I had gotten to the point where 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.440 it was dealing with me and I was no longer in 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:30.779 control because my body was saying, I want this 00:25:30.779 --> 00:25:33.140 and I need it now, but you're not doing anything 00:25:33.140 --> 00:25:36.279 about it. You know, so definitely if you find 00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:38.539 yourself in a situation where, you know, there's 00:25:38.539 --> 00:25:42.529 something, it's best to... find the time to deal 00:25:42.529 --> 00:25:45.349 with it. Otherwise it will come back and there 00:25:45.349 --> 00:25:47.410 will be nothing for you to do. It's become a 00:25:47.410 --> 00:25:49.390 catastrophe. I think it is interesting though, 00:25:49.410 --> 00:25:51.990 as to what different people do differently. So 00:25:51.990 --> 00:25:55.130 lots of the business, my colleague and I both 00:25:55.130 --> 00:25:59.049 behave very differently. He, so we were co -founders, 00:25:59.069 --> 00:26:04.089 he went and did a lot of soul searching, had 00:26:04.089 --> 00:26:07.650 some therapy, has done a lot of studying, things 00:26:07.650 --> 00:26:11.259 like that. I have literally got up and gone and 00:26:11.259 --> 00:26:15.200 found work to do, clients to work with. And that 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.900 worked for me. That taking action, I think, has 00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:20.759 worked for me. I think it's really helped me 00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:23.420 be out in the workplace again, be out in the 00:26:23.420 --> 00:26:25.599 world, connect with the people I like connecting 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.359 with. So I think it's important, as you said, 00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:31.799 Adejei, that it's each person does what works 00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:35.599 for them. Adejei, what did you do when you realized 00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:40.099 it was about the loss of the work? I think what 00:26:40.099 --> 00:26:46.680 I did was I stopped. I just stopped. I took some 00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:51.920 time off to be by myself. Because I think when 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:56.920 you're a mom and a career woman and a wife, there's 00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:00.180 just so many things happening. And I couldn't 00:27:00.180 --> 00:27:02.559 hear myself. There was too much noise around 00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:05.619 me, basically. So I decided to stop. And just 00:27:05.619 --> 00:27:08.019 take some time to listen to myself. And very 00:27:08.019 --> 00:27:12.299 similar to Stella, I'm not a sit down. Sit down 00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:15.740 in one place and meditate for too long. So I 00:27:15.740 --> 00:27:18.240 just took the time to listen. And afterwards, 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:23.200 I moved. So I'm more of a take action person 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:27.259 as well. Because as I see results, I feel like, 00:27:27.259 --> 00:27:30.039 okay, great. Let's keep moving, you know, that 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:33.849 kind of thing. But I think there's a time. and 00:27:33.849 --> 00:27:37.210 place for the pause, especially when there's 00:27:37.210 --> 00:27:41.269 a lot happening. Take that pause and then decide 00:27:41.269 --> 00:27:44.289 how you want to proceed. For some people, they 00:27:44.289 --> 00:27:47.190 decide they want to go a bit deeper. Other people, 00:27:47.210 --> 00:27:49.150 they decide they want to take action. For me, 00:27:49.170 --> 00:27:52.849 I'm more of an action person because it makes 00:27:52.849 --> 00:27:56.009 me feel like I'm at least doing something. I 00:27:56.009 --> 00:27:58.809 notice, I've just been reminded as well in my 00:27:58.809 --> 00:28:01.910 head, like the loss of romantic relationships. 00:28:02.210 --> 00:28:05.589 So I have many a good love story in my world. 00:28:05.930 --> 00:28:09.269 And when some significant relationships have 00:28:09.269 --> 00:28:14.210 finished, I know that that feels, that's a loss 00:28:14.210 --> 00:28:17.789 for me. And the same mentor said, often we're 00:28:17.789 --> 00:28:19.930 grieving the future we thought we were going 00:28:19.930 --> 00:28:22.809 to have. And I thought, yeah, that was a real, 00:28:22.890 --> 00:28:25.559 and I wonder if there's something. familiar in 00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:27.680 that phrase for all of us but my way of dealing 00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.119 with is I have a good cry I need to talk it out 00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:33.460 loud with different people I often go walking 00:28:33.460 --> 00:28:36.400 and talking and then I get very bored as soon 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:38.900 as I know I'm bored of the conversation as in 00:28:38.900 --> 00:28:42.240 of the story I'm like oh okay we're now shifting 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.240 again but often I need I'm just your classic 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:48.019 expert I think out I think to speak I speak to 00:28:48.019 --> 00:28:51.200 think I speak to think and I just have to go 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:54.119 through that I'm curious because I don't think 00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:57.880 you can't bring a loss back. Once something's 00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:00.819 lost, it's gone. Change is slightly different. 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:03.700 Change is an evolution, whereas loss is it's 00:29:03.700 --> 00:29:07.220 gone. You can't have it back. But I'm curious 00:29:07.220 --> 00:29:12.259 as to what you do to deal with it and then move 00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:15.539 on. So I think we've talked about taking action, 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:20.019 crying. What helps you take, you know, kind of... 00:29:20.380 --> 00:29:23.839 I guess in a way you sort of take it with you 00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:27.200 on your journey. Because I look at it from like 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:33.779 mum dying. And so it's like the shape of mum 00:29:33.779 --> 00:29:36.460 dying. Let's just call it a circle. It will always 00:29:36.460 --> 00:29:41.519 stay as a circle. And like my circle sits around 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:43.779 the outside of her circle. And to begin with, 00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:45.720 when she first started, it feels like we're super 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:49.279 close. And so it feels really palpable. And I 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:52.140 think what happens is over time, the shape of 00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:56.900 mum dying doesn't change, but I change. And so 00:29:56.900 --> 00:30:01.440 I change like my, so yes, we get this thing about 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.319 time. So that gives you a little bit of distance 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:06.660 is classic phrase. But I think also my relationship 00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:11.500 to death has changed as well with the acceptance 00:30:11.500 --> 00:30:13.819 of it. And what does that actually now mean to 00:30:13.819 --> 00:30:17.390 me? I think that happens. And so I don't. So 00:30:17.390 --> 00:30:19.650 I think there's something there about the shape 00:30:19.650 --> 00:30:23.630 and that we change around it. So it's not like 00:30:23.630 --> 00:30:27.109 an A to a B to a C. It's just like my hands are 00:30:27.109 --> 00:30:29.109 going all wiggly. But yeah, I feel like I've 00:30:29.109 --> 00:30:33.170 just, I just learned to change shape. Yeah. I 00:30:33.170 --> 00:30:35.750 think you touched on a really key point, Kirstie, 00:30:35.849 --> 00:30:40.450 the word acceptance. It has happened. You know, 00:30:40.450 --> 00:30:45.200 it has happened. That acceptance of it. means 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:47.740 you're not trying to change it. You're not trying 00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:50.680 to make it anything that it's not. It's an event. 00:30:50.819 --> 00:30:55.099 Somebody died. It has happened. It's then what 00:30:55.099 --> 00:30:59.599 you do after that, basically. So you realize 00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:02.900 that the person will always be gone. So nothing 00:31:02.900 --> 00:31:05.059 changes there like you were trying to describe. 00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:10.640 You then decide how you want to proceed with. 00:31:11.370 --> 00:31:16.509 that's event still being what it is you know 00:31:16.509 --> 00:31:18.930 that can it is it's it's quite a tough one but 00:31:18.930 --> 00:31:23.910 I think we intuitively understand it but being 00:31:23.910 --> 00:31:27.549 able being able to put it into words basically 00:31:27.549 --> 00:31:30.549 it's not that easy yeah I was really interested 00:31:30.549 --> 00:31:32.369 in you talking about that as a shape talking 00:31:32.369 --> 00:31:35.450 about your mum as a shape Kirsty because when 00:31:35.450 --> 00:31:39.569 my mum died I felt she was sort of I could feel 00:31:39.569 --> 00:31:43.500 her through through my belly button i really 00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:47.220 felt this deep connection wow between my mum 00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:50.039 i have two daughters and i could really feel 00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:52.019 this almost like it was almost like we had this 00:31:52.019 --> 00:31:55.779 umbilical cord still connected and even though 00:31:55.779 --> 00:31:59.940 she wasn't there herself she was there inside 00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:04.480 me but very much as a physical feeling love that 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:10.529 that's amazing i i think that absolutely a possibility 00:32:10.529 --> 00:32:14.990 because i you came from your mom so you're with 00:32:14.990 --> 00:32:20.269 her and she's with you yeah yeah i've heard loads 00:32:20.269 --> 00:32:23.509 of different descriptions of when people pass 00:32:23.509 --> 00:32:27.849 how you know how how people experience it i think 00:32:27.849 --> 00:32:30.390 somebody was saying um the other day i think 00:32:30.390 --> 00:32:34.210 their their mom probably was really loved robbins 00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:39.140 And the day she passed, they saw a robin on the 00:32:39.140 --> 00:32:43.160 window, even before they had gotten the news 00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:47.960 that the mom had passed. So, yeah, we get different 00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:51.720 ways. Everybody experiences it in different ways, 00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:54.539 I think. Different signs. I like that. Exactly. 00:32:54.579 --> 00:32:57.779 And whether you buy into that or not. I don't 00:32:57.779 --> 00:33:00.079 think it really matters. I think it's right for 00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:02.700 the person who articulates it. Yes, on an individual 00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:06.019 level. Yeah, absolutely. And please don't ever 00:33:06.019 --> 00:33:08.880 give someone a hard time if they share that. 00:33:09.019 --> 00:33:11.980 That's their thing. Mine's white feathers. White 00:33:11.980 --> 00:33:16.400 feathers. That's what I noticed with my wife. 00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.640 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you don't exactly, well, you 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:25.940 can't fill the space, but there's just a symbol 00:33:25.940 --> 00:33:30.460 somehow. And Ederjay, so on that, so like I said, 00:33:30.460 --> 00:33:34.000 like there's a shape, but you were talking about 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:39.700 almost the loss of the love for a career or a 00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:42.980 series of, I don't know, like the thought that 00:33:42.980 --> 00:33:45.799 you were going to be a marketeer. Is that right? 00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:51.660 Yes. How do you or how have you squared that 00:33:51.660 --> 00:33:56.950 one away? So I think you touched on a key point 00:33:56.950 --> 00:33:59.950 when you said what you're grieving is actually 00:33:59.950 --> 00:34:04.230 the future that you had imagined. And I would 00:34:04.230 --> 00:34:06.769 say it was exactly the same thing for me. I was 00:34:06.769 --> 00:34:10.010 grieving what the plan I had, which is get to 00:34:10.010 --> 00:34:12.190 marketing director, become a marketing consultant. 00:34:12.429 --> 00:34:15.469 That was the plan I had in my head. And it wasn't 00:34:15.469 --> 00:34:21.190 my parents' good thing. It was mine. So that's 00:34:21.190 --> 00:34:24.670 the thing. But I always had an idea that a career 00:34:24.670 --> 00:34:27.469 was a linear path. That was how I always imagined 00:34:27.469 --> 00:34:30.050 it. It was a linear path. Go from here to here, 00:34:30.110 --> 00:34:34.659 to here, to there, you know. So I had to... What 00:34:34.659 --> 00:34:37.280 was the word? I had to unlearn that. Let me see. 00:34:37.340 --> 00:34:40.460 I had to unlearn the fact that it had to be a 00:34:40.460 --> 00:34:43.480 linear path that you could go different ways. 00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:46.920 And the book Squiggle Careers definitely helped 00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:51.159 by Helen Topper and Sarah Ellis. It really helped. 00:34:51.260 --> 00:34:54.260 A friend of mine bought it for me when I was 00:34:54.260 --> 00:34:57.320 going up and down, you know, and I read it and 00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:00.739 it helped. settle me that was the first thing 00:35:00.739 --> 00:35:03.780 and it's that acceptance that this has happened 00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:08.280 I am not going to be able to bring to life the 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:12.099 vision that I had thought so what do I then do 00:35:12.099 --> 00:35:15.900 there's also another quote that's kept things 00:35:15.900 --> 00:35:19.420 solid for me was you're not starting from scratch. 00:35:19.500 --> 00:35:21.860 You're starting from experience. So you already 00:35:21.860 --> 00:35:24.519 have something. You're not going to go all the 00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:26.980 way to the beginning, you know, and that really 00:35:26.980 --> 00:35:30.440 helped land it. You know, once I got that, I'm 00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:32.059 like, okay, you know what? I'm not starting from 00:35:32.059 --> 00:35:34.199 scratch. I'm starting from where I am today, 00:35:34.300 --> 00:35:37.340 you know, and it really helped. You know, just 00:35:37.340 --> 00:35:39.980 accepting that it has happened and then how do 00:35:39.980 --> 00:35:45.980 I move forward, you know, helped make me move. 00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:49.179 Yeah. Because I stood still for a really long 00:35:49.179 --> 00:35:54.840 time. Interesting. Yeah. So what are some of 00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:57.820 our suggestions for people listening to this 00:35:57.820 --> 00:36:03.900 conversation about loss? Like what permission 00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:07.449 do we need to give ourselves? Yeah. If you ask 00:36:07.449 --> 00:36:10.710 me, I would say accept. That's the first step. 00:36:11.329 --> 00:36:14.550 Because a lot of times why we don't move forward 00:36:14.550 --> 00:36:19.690 is because we're still not able to accept what 00:36:19.690 --> 00:36:23.110 has happened. You're going up, down, up, down, 00:36:23.170 --> 00:36:25.590 up, down, up, down, and you never move forward, 00:36:25.710 --> 00:36:28.550 basically. So the first step, I would say, is 00:36:28.550 --> 00:36:31.489 acceptance and then just be open to learning. 00:36:31.750 --> 00:36:34.460 So Kirstie, you mentioned you talk. You talk 00:36:34.460 --> 00:36:37.880 to people. That's the thing as well. As you're 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:40.659 talking through things, sometimes you might even 00:36:40.659 --> 00:36:42.760 find your own solution. Nobody needs to tell 00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:48.099 you anything. Exactly. So accept and then just 00:36:48.099 --> 00:36:52.460 open up. Open up. Because only you, as on your 00:36:52.460 --> 00:36:55.340 own, a lot of times can't find the solution. 00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:59.159 Maybe because you don't have it or you're not 00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:02.639 experienced enough. But being able to... connect 00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.500 with other people to understand maybe other people's 00:37:05.500 --> 00:37:07.619 experiences because that's what I did just started 00:37:07.619 --> 00:37:09.940 talking to people what has been your career journey 00:37:09.940 --> 00:37:12.900 you know and I found that everybody has had squiggly 00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:15.619 careers but for some stupid reason welcome to 00:37:15.619 --> 00:37:21.519 the world It hadn't occurred to me, you know, 00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:24.239 and having those conversations with people made 00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:26.199 me realize that I'm not different. You know, 00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:28.599 everybody else has gone through it. And then 00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:31.300 it unlocked the door for me to start moving forward. 00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:35.400 So acceptance and just open up, talk to people. 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:40.139 Yeah. I think as well, looking at what you've 00:37:40.139 --> 00:37:43.000 still got, because you have lost, the things 00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:46.619 you've lost will not come back. But what have 00:37:46.619 --> 00:37:48.780 you got? What are you still left with? Because 00:37:48.780 --> 00:37:52.059 the loss feels like a big hole. But if you think 00:37:52.059 --> 00:37:56.260 of the stuff around the hole, that's much bigger. 00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:58.619 And what are you still left with? What is it 00:37:58.619 --> 00:38:01.420 that gives you, even if it's only a tiny amount 00:38:01.420 --> 00:38:04.500 of joy each day, just something small, it could 00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:07.559 be a flower, the sun coming up. I mean, I was 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:10.380 very lucky. I had two grandchildren in that time. 00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:14.860 So they just gave me something so beautiful to... 00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:19.219 Not fill the hole, but to, I don't know, be alongside 00:38:19.219 --> 00:38:23.940 the hole. And so I think look for what you've 00:38:23.940 --> 00:38:28.679 still got left. Yeah. And I would add, you don't 00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:32.039 have to do this on your own. as well and finding 00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:36.139 the acceptance or working out the what next there 00:38:36.139 --> 00:38:38.440 are some awesome people out there who will hold 00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:40.739 those spaces for you I genuinely think the brain 00:38:40.739 --> 00:38:42.760 can't fight its way out of a paper bag on its 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:46.880 own so I would thoroughly encourage the world 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:49.920 of therapists if you've got I do think people 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.260 who are outside of your world like immediate 00:38:52.260 --> 00:38:54.820 friendship and family is sometimes it's easier 00:38:54.820 --> 00:38:56.440 to have those conversations with them because 00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:59.099 I think family and friends can They sort of try 00:38:59.099 --> 00:39:01.920 and make it okay for you. They're often impacted. 00:39:02.380 --> 00:39:04.280 Well, yeah. Or they don't want to ask you the 00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:07.099 questions just in case Kirsty cries or just in 00:39:07.099 --> 00:39:09.940 case Stella gets upset and angry. And I don't 00:39:09.940 --> 00:39:13.900 want to find out. So go find a fantastic therapist 00:39:13.900 --> 00:39:16.880 or a coach to talk to as well, I'd say. I agree. 00:39:16.940 --> 00:39:19.059 And I think if you're working or dealing with 00:39:19.059 --> 00:39:20.800 somebody with loss, if you've got somebody in 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:22.559 your family who's got lost or a friend who's 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:24.579 got lost, I think what we talked about earlier 00:39:24.579 --> 00:39:28.780 on is let them... be let if they want to cry 00:39:28.780 --> 00:39:31.800 let them cry and just sit with them just maybe 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:34.019 put your arm around them you know let them feel 00:39:34.019 --> 00:39:36.440 that loss don't don't try and make it better 00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:38.619 as you're just saying kirsty you can't make it 00:39:38.619 --> 00:39:40.780 better you can't fix it you can't replace it 00:39:40.780 --> 00:39:44.219 but if you just stand with them that will help 00:39:44.219 --> 00:39:47.420 for a time definitely oh ladies thanks for this 00:39:47.420 --> 00:39:50.340 conversation it's weirdly to say i've enjoyed 00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:54.699 it it was fascinating it's insightful thank you 00:39:55.340 --> 00:39:59.480 Can I add one thing? Can I add one thing? What 00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:03.159 I believe basically is sometimes we go through 00:40:03.159 --> 00:40:09.980 situations so that we can learn and teach. So 00:40:09.980 --> 00:40:15.280 what I believe is after you have found your way 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:20.380 out of that pain, out of the loss, find avenues 00:40:20.380 --> 00:40:23.760 like what we're doing now to share. find avenues 00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:27.099 to make sure that that pain that you have gone 00:40:27.099 --> 00:40:30.340 through is not. in vain it's not for you only 00:40:30.340 --> 00:40:33.199 find a way to make sure that that is a learning 00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:36.519 that other people can take um from it's like 00:40:36.519 --> 00:40:39.300 i said my friend she wrote a book so i learned 00:40:39.300 --> 00:40:42.380 from that book you know some people go on podcasts 00:40:42.380 --> 00:40:44.880 and talk about it somebody could learn from it 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:48.079 you know um so don't don't keep it for yourself 00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:51.659 alone find opportunities avenues to ensure that 00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:54.960 that learning goes to other people as well that's 00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:58.139 a nice way to end When we edit the podcast, we 00:40:58.139 --> 00:41:00.760 listen back and make tiny cuts to remove some 00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:02.780 of the unintentional noises that people make. 00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:05.579 We left a lot of those in with this episode. 00:41:06.699 --> 00:41:10.179 By hearing our experiences openly discussed and 00:41:10.179 --> 00:41:13.739 supporting one another through the process, maybe 00:41:13.739 --> 00:41:15.980 we can navigate the complexities of loss together. 00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:19.619 A massive thank you to Kirstie, Ella, Jo and 00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:21.719 Stella for their insight into this topic and 00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:24.000 for their time in making the episode such a brilliant 00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:26.300 recording. You will of course want to connect 00:41:26.300 --> 00:41:28.139 with them afterwards and their details are in 00:41:28.139 --> 00:41:30.320 the show notes, along with information about 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:31.880 how to connect with us here at Women Talking 00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:34.460 About Learning. Remember to like and subscribe 00:41:34.460 --> 00:41:37.320 to the podcast on your podcast player. It does 00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:39.619 make a real difference in helping people find 00:41:39.619 --> 00:41:42.420 and recommend us, so hit that five star button 00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:44.420 and leave a comment about what you've heard. 00:41:45.099 --> 00:41:47.179 We're back in a couple of weeks and next time 00:41:47.179 --> 00:41:51.320 it's the hybrid one. As always, thank you for 00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:53.179 listening and we'll see you again soon.