Before we start, a very quick pause. On the 26th
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.live and the links in the show notes. Right,
let's get into the episode. Hello everyone and
welcome to this episode. the lost one of the
Women Talking About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew
Jacobs. Throughout our lives, all of us will
encounter some form of loss. And in this episode,
we're going to hear an incredibly heartfelt discussion
with three women who share their very personal
journeys through loss and exploring how sorrow
can lead to unexpected growth and how it shapes
our lives. Our first guest is Kirsty Lewis, the
founder of the School of Facilitation. She's
known for her passion for designing and delivering
brilliant workshops that create purpose, ownership,
safety and engagement. She is a convener of freelance
facilitators and trainers through the School
of Facilitation Collective, while supporting
corporate clients to evolve their learning game.
Our second guest is Edejei Onwude. Edejei is
a Nigerian -born, UK -based communications leader
whose career spans brand, culture and organisational
change. For over 10 years, she built and led
brand work for global organisations, including
Coca -Cola and Reckitt. More recently, her focus
has shifted to the broader human side of comms,
ensuring what organisations say aligns with the
experience of their employees, partners and stakeholders.
Our last guest is Stella Collins. Stella is an
internationally acclaimed learning strategist
dedicated to transforming performance and productivity
in the workplace. She has spent 30 years working
at the intersection of people, neuroscience,
AI, data and technology to deliver actionable
results. She is valued for her strategic advice
and unique ability to make complex ideas accessible
and relevant. This is challenging, visceral and
a simply wonderful conversation about loss. Please
do take time to listen through it fully. Recorded
at the end of November 2025. This is women talking
about learning. This is Kirsty, Edejay and Stella
talking about loss. Hello, Kirsty and Edejay.
It's really interesting that Andrew's kind of
brought us together to have this conversation.
So I'm really curious, what made you want to
have a conversation about loss? Well, for me,
it was... I guess, the birth of school of facilitation
coming from the loss of my mum because she passed
away. And I wanted to share that and how good
stuff can come when we lose something. That's
a good one. So for me, it was from falling out
of love with a career that I absolutely loved.
I think this is not something that's talked about
enough just because we don't. associate as much
importance to it but if a career is something
that you take very seriously and we spend so
much of our time there I think it's something
we need to talk about a little bit more so that's
why I'm here yeah love it how about you Stella
and for me it was because despite the fact I'm
a very positive or I see myself as a positive
resilient person I've had a lot of loss over
the last eight years and And I guess it has taught
me I am a resilient person. So I was just curious
to sort of explore almost what other people have
felt about loss, really, as well as my own. Explore
perhaps a little bit of my own feelings about
it. We all got our each. Each of us got an example
of loss or many examples, Stella. What does it
actually mean to us to lose X, Y, Z? What does
that actually mean? That's a good question. I
would, yeah, I would say if I were to jump in
there, to lose something, for it to, I would
say it has to mean something to you so that when
it leaves. It leaves a vacuum or it leaves something
that makes you feel like I've lost it. So for
instance, we lose things every day. I could lose
20 pounds and yeah, it's nothing. But if I were
to lose much more than that, then it will mean
something. So I think for something to be considered
loss, it has to mean something to you to some
extent that it creates a vacuum when it goes.
I think the vacuum is interesting. I think it
creates change. You can have change from things
that you do that are something you gain. But
I think it creates change. And then I'm just
really interested in what you said, Kirsty, about
it started off your school of facilitation because
your mum... Does it leave a vacuum that you can
then fill with something else? No, I don't think
it does. I was just going to say, for me, the
lost thing is a feeling. So it's like there is
a... something that happens so the loss of uh
the 20 pounds but i would get then have a feeling
of being irritated that i'd lost it so i think
for me the loss element is then an emote it's
like it's the trigger is the losing of the something
and then there's an emotion and then there's
a set of um i was gonna say actions or unintended
consequences that then occur because of that
loss and i think it's how we then relate to those
what comes after the loss yeah and I think that's
probably some of for each of us our stories as
to why we're here today is like what happens
after we um lose a parent I just have to get
this joke in by the way um someone said to me
once like I heard it on the radio like when when
someone passes away and dies a lot of people
go I'm really sorry for your loss and this comedian
just said I didn't bloody leave her in the Tesco
shopping aisle, you know, like they died. And
so whenever I hear the word loss in association
with someone dying, I just sort of roll my eyes
and giggle. Cause I'm just like, I haven't left
my mom in Tesco or Asda. It's much more serious
than that. It's a little bit more profound than
that. I actually prefer to say the person died
because I think they passed on, they passed away.
They were lost. It doesn't describe it. I think
they died. Yeah. But people don't want to have
that conversation, Stella. No. Yes. No, no, I
find it's a difficult conversation for a lot
of people. That's why we tend to soften it a
little bit, you know, with different language
that makes it easier. But like you said, just
say the person died is an easier way of landing
the message. And I would say anyone listening
to this who hasn't necessarily had the experience
of someone close dying, but you may have friends
and it's really tempting to go in and all soft.
Either people don't speak about it at all or
they will speak about it, but they, to your point,
you know, it's a softening of language. I want
you to know it's shit. It is really shit. And
so please just be direct and just say, how are
you today? Not how are you, but how are you today?
Because every day changes with the passing of
time or if you're in a space where my mom's at
a hospice. So you go through different emotions.
And then the other thing as well is if you are
grappling with your own existential crisis of
a friend's parent has passed or someone and you're
not too sure what to say, maybe it's okay. just
to acknowledge it and even just go, I find this
really hard. And your friend will probably go,
yes, it is. It is bloody hard. And you'll have
a conversation about that. I would rather that
than everyone just nicely, nicely placate. I
agree. That's a good point. Much better to have
somebody acknowledge that it's, I actually think
it's not even a feeling for me. It's a pain.
So I lost both my parents in the last couple
of years. And it's a pain, even though you expect
it to happen. You know, they weren't young. And
I'm not young, but it still was painful. We also
lost, we moved house. In the process, we moved
countries. In the process, all our favorite items
we'd put in storage, all the things that mattered
to us, not the rubbish that you could get rid
of. And there was a fire. So we lost. all of
our possessions that we had ever, you know, all
the things we collected over the years, the things
that meant something, were all lost. And that's
painful. It felt like a pain. And I'm not really
a possession type person, but that's still a
pain. Yeah. Is it like the memories that were
in those items that when you would look at them,
it's like, oh yeah, that and that. And it's the
loss of the memories because once they've gone,
you're really having to rely on your memory.
You can't rely anymore on the thing triggering
a memory. And now if you do think of that thing,
yes, you can bring back the original memory,
which was usually a good memory, but then you
have the memory that goes with it, which is the
lost memory, the pain. Yeah. And that's true
of losing parents too. Yeah, yeah. I was just
going to say something around when it's a...
different kind of loss, especially like, for
instance, you mentioned the loss from property.
That's not something a lot of people can relate
to. Some people might not even see it as anything,
but it's a huge loss to you. So my friend lost
her husband years ago. Her husband died. Language.
Her husband died a few years ago and she wrote
a book about the journey. of going through the
grief and coming out on the other side. And one
of the things she mentioned is sometimes you
can't understand it. Words, no words you say
can actually make it easier or make it any different
from how the person is feeling. So what she said
was one of the people that made the most impact
was just there. She came and she sat. No words,
nothing. just know that I'm here with you I'm
here if you need to talk if you need anything
I'm here but I have no words nothing to say to
actually capture what you're going through so
in those kind of situations sometimes just presence
is enough because especially when you can't understand
it you know yeah I like that I found hugs really
helped yes I was thinking that it's it's almost
like somebody If you've got a sore arm, people
pat it, you stroke it, don't you? And I found
that hugs really, really helped. They didn't
need to say anything. You're quite right, AJ.
If they just hugged you, that was enough. Yeah,
yeah. I'd say if I were to say something about
hugs and my slightly different loss. So at the
time I was grappling with... maybe there's something
wrong with me I had my sister had just moved
to the UK as well and some days I would just
go to her house and just sit there with her because
again I didn't feel like I could I could fully
articulate what I was going through because I
was in a great job you know it's not anything
you can explain to anybody because I was in a
great job doing what I have always done And it
just felt wrong. If I explained it to anybody,
it felt like you're not grateful. Everything
is going great for you. What is wrong with you?
So in that situation, I found just being in the
presence of people to be great. Just being in
the presence of people that I knew loved me.
would listen if I was ever willing to talk about
it. It did help. So that presence and just being
with your people makes a huge difference when
you're going through something, especially if
it's something not everybody else can understand.
What was the emotion, Edejay, that, you know,
looking backwards now, that you associate with
that time of, I get you didn't know quite, but
it was like... the job or you knew the job wasn't
there but what was the emotion that was around
that for you I would say the biggest one was
fear because I knew at the at the time I had
landed on the fact that okay I don't want to
do this anymore I didn't know what it is I wanted
to do so I was afraid that I was losing my entire
career like everything I had worked for was gone
and there was nowhere I could go from here So
it was, I would say fear was the biggest thing.
Like I have worked so hard for nothing. Yeah.
And that's why it took me a while to even say
it out because saying it out felt like admitting
that everything I had worked for was in vain
and I wouldn't be able to do anything after this.
Wow. I had the same and different experience
when I was at Diageo. I went to a friend, this
is how I left. I went to a friend's workshop
and I was meant to have an outcome and we were
going to shape this outcome all day. And so I
made one up and I literally said, I am a NLP
trainer and coach and I am £5 ,000 a month. And
literally, this was like 2007, I said that. And
I didn't mean it, or so I thought. And I left
that evening. And I was cycling home because
I lived in London. And I was like, oh, I think
I actually do want to do that. And so an element
of my fear then came through of like, it was
an emotion. And it was like, that wasn't the
intention of being there that day. I was there
to support my friend who was creating a workshop
and testing it. But then a different kind of
loss. It wasn't a loss, but it was like a 180
turn. And then the fear bit for me as well, it's
like, where did that come from? understand in
a slight way yeah like what what are people gonna
think but I didn't tell my parents for months
because I had to come up with a plan exactly
exactly and I think a lot of times our for that
for I don't want to sound woo woo basically but
it feels like a lot of times our heart knows
things before it actually gets to our brain so
a lot of times we know things but We're not yet
ready to admit it, so it hasn't yet transmitted
to here. So I'm sure when you said what you said,
you thought you were making things up, but it
was probably your subconscious bringing to the
front what you actually did want to do. So yeah,
that's quite interesting. Yeah. My dad, when
I did tell him, this wasn't the first thing he
said, but I still... imagine it was he was like
does that mean you're gonna lose your BA gold
card because I traveled globally and I went yeah
it probably does mean that dad but uh it just
made me laugh uh Cello you you said you've had
like eight eight years of of loss and and you
shared about your mom and dad dying about your
possessions your house like burning is dare I
ask is there anything else Yes. Yeah, it was
not a good eight years. I also lost the opportunity
to go to our daughter's wedding. And that was
because at around that time, I was diagnosed
with breast cancer, which was, you know, okay,
not great, but I was kind of dealing with it
because I knew it was early. But I needed to
have an operation and it was during COVID. And
it was just around that Christmas time when...
That first Christmas in the UK, everything was
crazy. So we went to the UK. We went into quarantine
for 10 days because that's what you had to do
at that point. Ready to come out to have Christmas
together. And my daughter was getting married
on Christmas Eve, our daughter. And then suddenly
at the same time, France said, we're closing
all the borders because there was a new virus.
And we thought, well, I need to get back because
I've got an appointment on Christmas, on New
Year's Eve. I have an appointment on New Year's
Eve for an operation. So we had to leave just
like that. And now I wish, of course, I just
said, oh, damn it, I could have just gone to
the wedding and, you know, forgotten the appointment
or I could have had the appointment a bit later.
But we didn't know how long the borders would
be shut. We didn't know anything at that time.
So, yeah, so that was another loss. That was
not a great one either. And then, yeah, in the
last few years, I think probably, you know, Kirsty
and I had a... A business that I loved, I was
very inspired by. And sadly, we had to shut that
this year. So that was another loss of money,
identity, pride. That's a lot. That's a lot in
eight years. Exactly. Can I ask, how do you manage
to wake up in the morning and still move? What
is it you tell yourself that makes you wake up
and move? Because usually what I think is whenever
I'm going through a tough time, I tell myself
it will soon pass. You know, just wake up, it
will pass. But if you're getting it back to back
for eight solid years, how do you keep going?
What do you tell yourself to still wake up? I
don't think I tell myself anything. Like I said
earlier, I think I'm quite resilient. I wake
up in the morning. Every day is a new day. And
you've still got to do the stuff you have to
do. So you have to get up to do, or I feel I
have to get up to do those things, whether it's
make a cup of tea or, you know, whatever it might
be. And then I think I'm a very full, you know,
I think about the future more than I think about
the past. So, you know, even with those things
happening, I'm thinking, well, how do we deal
with that? You know, okay, so. You know, you're
going to have to get through the funeral. You're
going to have to tell people. You're going to
have to. So I think it's about what are the actions
I'm going to have to take as a consequence of
this that just get me taking those actions and
getting up and continuing to move. Because one
of you said earlier on, there's always a consequence
to a loss and that it leaves a gap of some sort
that needs filling in some way or it's the actions
that need to be taken. I think that's, yeah.
Do you know what? I've not really thought about
that. But I think it's the fact things need to
happen, so you have to get them done. And do
you then give yourself permission to grieve?
I don't think I give myself as much permission
as I should give myself. That's interesting.
And I think what I... This is the first time
I've probably shared most of this publicly. People
may or may not know. Some people may or may not
know. Because I... Don't particularly want to
tell other people these things because they may
have worse, different things that are impacting
on them. And I don't want to impact on, you know,
their, if they might be having a good day and
I don't want to impact on their good day. And
if they're having a bad day, I don't want to
impact on their bad day. I can tell you one very
quick story that not long after all this stuff
burned down, Notre Dame Cathedral burned down
and it really pissed me off. Because there was
all this fuss about it. I mean, I was upset too.
It was a terrible thing to happen. But there
was so much public noise and, oh, we feel so
sorry for the people of Paris and things. And
I'm thinking, I've got my own little problem
here and just shut up about Notre Dame. But that
happens for many people. They have a loss in
their lives that is impacted on by a bigger thing
that's happening globally. And they get... But
I am going to say I'm noticing, Stella, is you
deflected on the answer about have you given
yourself permission to grieve? Because grieving
isn't a group thing. Grieving is an individual
thing. Yeah. And like giving yourself that permission.
All of us, by the way. Etta J, you as well, like
the transition out of the corporate career, you
potentially, I don't know whether it was you
who thought you would have that or your parents.
And same with my mum. It's like. I got called
out by my mentor after two years after mum had
passed away and said, I don't think you've grieved
your mum, Kirsty. You've done a very good job
of putting it in a box and pushing it to one
side. And she gifted me a coaching session with
a really remarkable woman called Judy Wilkins
-Smith, pocket rocket of a South African based
in Phoenix. We literally did some systemic work,
family work, and it just helped me unlock. and
noticed some patterns I'd been holding and some
things. And then I went on a deep journey of
understanding that. But that's when SOF was birthed.
And so I do wonder, I'd say all three of us,
because of our upbringings, our backgrounds,
how we show up, we'll be like, no, no, it's fine.
I'm fine. I've got this sorted. aka I might have
I've given myself a pity party I might have had
a little cry but that's enough yes and now I
put it in a box and I'm moving on because I get
struck by all three of us being future focused
but I do think there is sometimes we need to
I genuinely do because if we suppress what's
happened it's got it goes into the body somewhere
this is my belief and um if we don't release
that emotion from the body, it's got to transmute
into something. And more often than not, my belief
is it makes me sick, whether that's a cold or
sore throat or worse. And I don't know. I just
think there's benefit for all three of us to
not do it publicly by any stretch, Stella. And
I would encourage us all to work through it in
our way. I think for me, I think I've worked
through it, but not in a crying sort of way.
I think walking, having a day of not really doing
anything. Nice. Yeah. I think everybody has their
way, basically, of dealing with these things,
basically. Some people might be completely crashed
out. Other people... dealing with it in some
in some other way but you're right Kirstie in
terms of the fact that if you don't deal with
it it will deal with you for lack of a better
way to to say it and it same thing happened to
me basically I would say for three years I was
on this journey of I don't like what I'm doing
but I don't know what the problem is. You know,
I would say the first year what I did was to
change jobs because I thought that was the issue.
It's the organization. There's something wrong
there. And I moved from one organization to the
other. And in six months, I was in the same place
again. You know, that kind of thing. And because
I didn't do anything about it. What happened
basically was I just kept going down, down, down,
down, down, you know, and it got to a point where
something that was so easy for me to do, like
I could do with my eyes closed, I couldn't do
it anymore. So I had gotten to the point where
it was dealing with me and I was no longer in
control because my body was saying, I want this
and I need it now, but you're not doing anything
about it. You know, so definitely if you find
yourself in a situation where, you know, there's
something, it's best to... find the time to deal
with it. Otherwise it will come back and there
will be nothing for you to do. It's become a
catastrophe. I think it is interesting though,
as to what different people do differently. So
lots of the business, my colleague and I both
behave very differently. He, so we were co -founders,
he went and did a lot of soul searching, had
some therapy, has done a lot of studying, things
like that. I have literally got up and gone and
found work to do, clients to work with. And that
worked for me. That taking action, I think, has
worked for me. I think it's really helped me
be out in the workplace again, be out in the
world, connect with the people I like connecting
with. So I think it's important, as you said,
Adejei, that it's each person does what works
for them. Adejei, what did you do when you realized
it was about the loss of the work? I think what
I did was I stopped. I just stopped. I took some
time off to be by myself. Because I think when
you're a mom and a career woman and a wife, there's
just so many things happening. And I couldn't
hear myself. There was too much noise around
me, basically. So I decided to stop. And just
take some time to listen to myself. And very
similar to Stella, I'm not a sit down. Sit down
in one place and meditate for too long. So I
just took the time to listen. And afterwards,
I moved. So I'm more of a take action person
as well. Because as I see results, I feel like,
okay, great. Let's keep moving, you know, that
kind of thing. But I think there's a time. and
place for the pause, especially when there's
a lot happening. Take that pause and then decide
how you want to proceed. For some people, they
decide they want to go a bit deeper. Other people,
they decide they want to take action. For me,
I'm more of an action person because it makes
me feel like I'm at least doing something. I
notice, I've just been reminded as well in my
head, like the loss of romantic relationships.
So I have many a good love story in my world.
And when some significant relationships have
finished, I know that that feels, that's a loss
for me. And the same mentor said, often we're
grieving the future we thought we were going
to have. And I thought, yeah, that was a real,
and I wonder if there's something. familiar in
that phrase for all of us but my way of dealing
with is I have a good cry I need to talk it out
loud with different people I often go walking
and talking and then I get very bored as soon
as I know I'm bored of the conversation as in
of the story I'm like oh okay we're now shifting
again but often I need I'm just your classic
expert I think out I think to speak I speak to
think I speak to think and I just have to go
through that I'm curious because I don't think
you can't bring a loss back. Once something's
lost, it's gone. Change is slightly different.
Change is an evolution, whereas loss is it's
gone. You can't have it back. But I'm curious
as to what you do to deal with it and then move
on. So I think we've talked about taking action,
crying. What helps you take, you know, kind of...
I guess in a way you sort of take it with you
on your journey. Because I look at it from like
mum dying. And so it's like the shape of mum
dying. Let's just call it a circle. It will always
stay as a circle. And like my circle sits around
the outside of her circle. And to begin with,
when she first started, it feels like we're super
close. And so it feels really palpable. And I
think what happens is over time, the shape of
mum dying doesn't change, but I change. And so
I change like my, so yes, we get this thing about
time. So that gives you a little bit of distance
is classic phrase. But I think also my relationship
to death has changed as well with the acceptance
of it. And what does that actually now mean to
me? I think that happens. And so I don't. So
I think there's something there about the shape
and that we change around it. So it's not like
an A to a B to a C. It's just like my hands are
going all wiggly. But yeah, I feel like I've
just, I just learned to change shape. Yeah. I
think you touched on a really key point, Kirstie,
the word acceptance. It has happened. You know,
it has happened. That acceptance of it. means
you're not trying to change it. You're not trying
to make it anything that it's not. It's an event.
Somebody died. It has happened. It's then what
you do after that, basically. So you realize
that the person will always be gone. So nothing
changes there like you were trying to describe.
You then decide how you want to proceed with.
that's event still being what it is you know
that can it is it's it's quite a tough one but
I think we intuitively understand it but being
able being able to put it into words basically
it's not that easy yeah I was really interested
in you talking about that as a shape talking
about your mum as a shape Kirsty because when
my mum died I felt she was sort of I could feel
her through through my belly button i really
felt this deep connection wow between my mum
i have two daughters and i could really feel
this almost like it was almost like we had this
umbilical cord still connected and even though
she wasn't there herself she was there inside
me but very much as a physical feeling love that
that's amazing i i think that absolutely a possibility
because i you came from your mom so you're with
her and she's with you yeah yeah i've heard loads
of different descriptions of when people pass
how you know how how people experience it i think
somebody was saying um the other day i think
their their mom probably was really loved robbins
And the day she passed, they saw a robin on the
window, even before they had gotten the news
that the mom had passed. So, yeah, we get different
ways. Everybody experiences it in different ways,
I think. Different signs. I like that. Exactly.
And whether you buy into that or not. I don't
think it really matters. I think it's right for
the person who articulates it. Yes, on an individual
level. Yeah, absolutely. And please don't ever
give someone a hard time if they share that.
That's their thing. Mine's white feathers. White
feathers. That's what I noticed with my wife.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you don't exactly, well, you
can't fill the space, but there's just a symbol
somehow. And Ederjay, so on that, so like I said,
like there's a shape, but you were talking about
almost the loss of the love for a career or a
series of, I don't know, like the thought that
you were going to be a marketeer. Is that right?
Yes. How do you or how have you squared that
one away? So I think you touched on a key point
when you said what you're grieving is actually
the future that you had imagined. And I would
say it was exactly the same thing for me. I was
grieving what the plan I had, which is get to
marketing director, become a marketing consultant.
That was the plan I had in my head. And it wasn't
my parents' good thing. It was mine. So that's
the thing. But I always had an idea that a career
was a linear path. That was how I always imagined
it. It was a linear path. Go from here to here,
to here, to there, you know. So I had to... What
was the word? I had to unlearn that. Let me see.
I had to unlearn the fact that it had to be a
linear path that you could go different ways.
And the book Squiggle Careers definitely helped
by Helen Topper and Sarah Ellis. It really helped.
A friend of mine bought it for me when I was
going up and down, you know, and I read it and
it helped. settle me that was the first thing
and it's that acceptance that this has happened
I am not going to be able to bring to life the
vision that I had thought so what do I then do
there's also another quote that's kept things
solid for me was you're not starting from scratch.
You're starting from experience. So you already
have something. You're not going to go all the
way to the beginning, you know, and that really
helped land it. You know, once I got that, I'm
like, okay, you know what? I'm not starting from
scratch. I'm starting from where I am today,
you know, and it really helped. You know, just
accepting that it has happened and then how do
I move forward, you know, helped make me move.
Yeah. Because I stood still for a really long
time. Interesting. Yeah. So what are some of
our suggestions for people listening to this
conversation about loss? Like what permission
do we need to give ourselves? Yeah. If you ask
me, I would say accept. That's the first step.
Because a lot of times why we don't move forward
is because we're still not able to accept what
has happened. You're going up, down, up, down,
up, down, up, down, and you never move forward,
basically. So the first step, I would say, is
acceptance and then just be open to learning.
So Kirstie, you mentioned you talk. You talk
to people. That's the thing as well. As you're
talking through things, sometimes you might even
find your own solution. Nobody needs to tell
you anything. Exactly. So accept and then just
open up. Open up. Because only you, as on your
own, a lot of times can't find the solution.
Maybe because you don't have it or you're not
experienced enough. But being able to... connect
with other people to understand maybe other people's
experiences because that's what I did just started
talking to people what has been your career journey
you know and I found that everybody has had squiggly
careers but for some stupid reason welcome to
the world It hadn't occurred to me, you know,
and having those conversations with people made
me realize that I'm not different. You know,
everybody else has gone through it. And then
it unlocked the door for me to start moving forward.
So acceptance and just open up, talk to people.
Yeah. I think as well, looking at what you've
still got, because you have lost, the things
you've lost will not come back. But what have
you got? What are you still left with? Because
the loss feels like a big hole. But if you think
of the stuff around the hole, that's much bigger.
And what are you still left with? What is it
that gives you, even if it's only a tiny amount
of joy each day, just something small, it could
be a flower, the sun coming up. I mean, I was
very lucky. I had two grandchildren in that time.
So they just gave me something so beautiful to...
Not fill the hole, but to, I don't know, be alongside
the hole. And so I think look for what you've
still got left. Yeah. And I would add, you don't
have to do this on your own. as well and finding
the acceptance or working out the what next there
are some awesome people out there who will hold
those spaces for you I genuinely think the brain
can't fight its way out of a paper bag on its
own so I would thoroughly encourage the world
of therapists if you've got I do think people
who are outside of your world like immediate
friendship and family is sometimes it's easier
to have those conversations with them because
I think family and friends can They sort of try
and make it okay for you. They're often impacted.
Well, yeah. Or they don't want to ask you the
questions just in case Kirsty cries or just in
case Stella gets upset and angry. And I don't
want to find out. So go find a fantastic therapist
or a coach to talk to as well, I'd say. I agree.
And I think if you're working or dealing with
somebody with loss, if you've got somebody in
your family who's got lost or a friend who's
got lost, I think what we talked about earlier
on is let them... be let if they want to cry
let them cry and just sit with them just maybe
put your arm around them you know let them feel
that loss don't don't try and make it better
as you're just saying kirsty you can't make it
better you can't fix it you can't replace it
but if you just stand with them that will help
for a time definitely oh ladies thanks for this
conversation it's weirdly to say i've enjoyed
it it was fascinating it's insightful thank you
Can I add one thing? Can I add one thing? What
I believe basically is sometimes we go through
situations so that we can learn and teach. So
what I believe is after you have found your way
out of that pain, out of the loss, find avenues
like what we're doing now to share. find avenues
to make sure that that pain that you have gone
through is not. in vain it's not for you only
find a way to make sure that that is a learning
that other people can take um from it's like
i said my friend she wrote a book so i learned
from that book you know some people go on podcasts
and talk about it somebody could learn from it
you know um so don't don't keep it for yourself
alone find opportunities avenues to ensure that
that learning goes to other people as well that's
a nice way to end When we edit the podcast, we
listen back and make tiny cuts to remove some
of the unintentional noises that people make.
We left a lot of those in with this episode.
By hearing our experiences openly discussed and
supporting one another through the process, maybe
we can navigate the complexities of loss together.
A massive thank you to Kirstie, Ella, Jo and
Stella for their insight into this topic and
for their time in making the episode such a brilliant
recording. You will of course want to connect
with them afterwards and their details are in
the show notes, along with information about
how to connect with us here at Women Talking
About Learning. Remember to like and subscribe
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and leave a comment about what you've heard.
We're back in a couple of weeks and next time
it's the hybrid one. As always, thank you for
listening and we'll see you again soon.