WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.319 Before we dive in, a quick moment. Most learning 00:00:03.319 --> 00:00:05.940 gets talked about, but little of it gets recorded. 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:10.060 On February 26th, that changes. The Podcast Learning 00:00:10.060 --> 00:00:12.119 Festival is happening at Mary Sumner House in 00:00:12.119 --> 00:00:14.820 London, a one -day event for people who care 00:00:14.820 --> 00:00:17.780 about how podcasting and learning come together 00:00:17.780 --> 00:00:21.339 to make work smarter and more human. You'll be 00:00:21.339 --> 00:00:23.660 in rooms where people are recording real conversations. 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:26.460 sharing what actually works and exploring what 00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:28.460 happens when learning becomes something you can 00:00:28.460 --> 00:00:32.060 hear, not just attend. It's for creators, learning 00:00:32.060 --> 00:00:34.920 leaders and anyone curious about using audio 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:38.359 to change practice, not just talk about it. Tickers 00:00:38.359 --> 00:00:41.380 and details are at podcastlearningfest .live 00:00:41.380 --> 00:00:44.200 and the links in the show notes. Now, on with 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:58.670 the episode. Hello everyone and welcome to this 00:00:58.670 --> 00:01:01.289 episode, the third sector one of the Women Talking 00:01:01.289 --> 00:01:04.569 About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. First 00:01:04.569 --> 00:01:08.349 of all, Happy New Year for 2026 and we're kicking 00:01:08.349 --> 00:01:11.170 off the first of this year's episodes. Having 00:01:11.170 --> 00:01:13.370 worked in the third sector for some time in my 00:01:13.370 --> 00:01:15.969 career, this is a subject that is close to home. 00:01:16.450 --> 00:01:18.969 L &D in the third sector often operates with 00:01:18.969 --> 00:01:21.670 limited time, capacity and budget compared to 00:01:21.670 --> 00:01:24.700 the private sector. This necessitates creative, 00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:27.340 cost -effective solutions. And to discuss this 00:01:27.340 --> 00:01:31.099 further, we have four fantastic guests. Our first 00:01:31.099 --> 00:01:34.000 guest is Kerry Gabriel O'Sullivan. Kerry is a 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:35.920 learning and organisational development leader 00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:38.739 with over 15 years' experience in the third sector 00:01:38.739 --> 00:01:41.760 within animal welfare. They've led national learning 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:44.319 strategies and shaped organisational culture 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:46.659 in complex, emotionally demanding environments. 00:01:47.469 --> 00:01:50.969 Our second guest is Edwina Daniels. Edwina is 00:01:50.969 --> 00:01:52.870 an experienced learning and development leader 00:01:52.870 --> 00:01:55.370 with a strong track record in the charity sector. 00:01:55.890 --> 00:01:58.689 She specialises in creating accessible, engaging 00:01:58.689 --> 00:02:01.849 and inclusive learning solutions that drive impact 00:02:01.849 --> 00:02:05.670 and foster engagement. Our third guest is Suze 00:02:05.670 --> 00:02:08.389 Taylor. Suze is a learning and development manager 00:02:08.389 --> 00:02:10.990 with approximately 20 years experience designing 00:02:10.990 --> 00:02:13.009 and delivering impactful learning strategies. 00:02:13.469 --> 00:02:16.009 For the past four years, she has worked in the 00:02:16.009 --> 00:02:18.810 charity sector with St Peter's Hospice, creating 00:02:18.810 --> 00:02:21.610 programmes that build leadership capability and 00:02:21.610 --> 00:02:24.289 foster a culture of learning. Our final guest 00:02:24.289 --> 00:02:27.370 is Emma Withnell. Emma is a learning and development 00:02:27.370 --> 00:02:29.909 professional with over 15 years experience designing 00:02:29.909 --> 00:02:32.389 and delivering engaging learning across the NHS, 00:02:33.210 --> 00:02:36.370 education and social housing. She's a qualified 00:02:36.370 --> 00:02:39.150 and experienced coach specialising in supporting 00:02:39.150 --> 00:02:42.270 neurodiverse individuals and women to build confidence, 00:02:42.590 --> 00:02:44.569 recognise their strengths and perform at their 00:02:44.569 --> 00:02:49.349 best. Recorded in November 2025, this is a wonderful 00:02:49.349 --> 00:02:51.849 conversation. So please settle back and enjoy. 00:02:52.430 --> 00:02:54.729 This is women talking about learning. This is 00:02:54.729 --> 00:02:59.169 Kerry, Edwina, Suze and Emma talking about the 00:02:59.169 --> 00:03:02.110 third sector. Hi, everyone. It is absolutely 00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:04.629 great to see you. How are you all doing? Good. 00:03:04.860 --> 00:03:08.439 Good. Thank you. Very good. Thanks. Fantastic. 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:10.960 Thank you very much. I'd love to know a little 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:14.000 bit about kind of what got you guys to come on 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:16.340 and do this podcast today and kind of how you 00:03:16.340 --> 00:03:18.539 got to where you are now and where we're sat 00:03:18.539 --> 00:03:25.060 here today. Yeah. So I think for me, it was get 00:03:25.060 --> 00:03:28.819 contact through through other network sort of 00:03:28.819 --> 00:03:32.060 colleagues within L &D who mentioned this and 00:03:32.060 --> 00:03:34.319 I wasn't aware of the podcast and having listened 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:36.780 to some episodes now I thought it would be really 00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:40.120 interesting to take part and definitely that 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:44.479 third sector aspect in terms of what's unique 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:48.719 about our sector because I think we probably 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:50.759 just take it for granted sometimes and it's not 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:52.659 until you start talking to others and realise 00:03:52.659 --> 00:03:54.960 that there's a lot of shared experience and perspectives 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:58.789 to be had. Yeah, so that was my thinking, Suze. 00:03:59.069 --> 00:04:00.569 Thanks. That's a really good point, Edwina, because 00:04:00.569 --> 00:04:04.669 you talked there about networks and connecting 00:04:04.669 --> 00:04:07.550 with this through other platforms. And we use 00:04:07.550 --> 00:04:09.949 Charity Learning Consortium and that was who 00:04:09.949 --> 00:04:12.490 introduced us onto the platform as well. And 00:04:12.490 --> 00:04:15.629 likewise, it's given me up to these podcasts 00:04:15.629 --> 00:04:18.350 and has helped me to listen to a few other things 00:04:18.350 --> 00:04:21.329 as well. It's been really useful. Kerry, what 00:04:21.329 --> 00:04:25.079 about you? Yeah, me too. Ed and I used to work 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:28.740 together many moons ago and so similarly we sort 00:04:28.740 --> 00:04:31.600 of heard about it at the same time and yeah, 00:04:31.980 --> 00:04:34.459 I really value connecting with other people in 00:04:34.459 --> 00:04:37.319 the sector. and particularly wants to hear about 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:39.620 people's experience working and learning in the 00:04:39.620 --> 00:04:42.339 sector and women, you know, it's something that 00:04:42.339 --> 00:04:44.680 I think we can all have unique perceptions on. 00:04:45.139 --> 00:04:47.899 But also I feel, you know, particularly for me, 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:49.540 my experience of working in L &D in the sector, 00:04:49.660 --> 00:04:52.480 that it is actually mainly women working in it. 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.100 So, you know, I think we've got a we've got a 00:04:55.100 --> 00:04:57.000 lot of interesting perspectives that we can share. 00:04:57.220 --> 00:04:59.480 So I'm looking forward to talking to you today. 00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:04.379 How about you Emma? Yeah, same as you, Suze. 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:07.319 I heard about the podcast through the Charity 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:11.740 Learning Consortium and the community that is 00:05:11.740 --> 00:05:16.459 built around that has been really great for me, 00:05:16.939 --> 00:05:20.420 opened up a lot of opportunities for networking 00:05:20.420 --> 00:05:23.480 with other people in the third sector and in 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:26.399 learning. And like you say, Kerry, particularly 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:29.519 women, we are quite a women. dominated kind of 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:32.740 profession, I think. For me, coming on the podcast 00:05:32.740 --> 00:05:36.579 was a really, really great opportunity to hear 00:05:36.579 --> 00:05:42.180 from some other really great, clever women and 00:05:42.180 --> 00:05:47.439 share some of that and absorb some of that. It's 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:52.069 interesting. Go ahead, Edwina. I was just going 00:05:52.069 --> 00:05:55.730 to pick up on what you'd said, Suze. Well, actually, 00:05:56.170 --> 00:05:57.649 I can't remember who it was who actually said 00:05:57.649 --> 00:05:59.689 it, but I think a couple of people have mentioned 00:05:59.689 --> 00:06:02.730 about being women in learning and in the third 00:06:02.730 --> 00:06:05.670 sector that there's a lot of women in sort of 00:06:05.670 --> 00:06:07.850 in our charity sectors or the sectors that we're 00:06:07.850 --> 00:06:12.079 working in. Yet we see normally across the board, 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:14.100 there's a lot of men though in senior positions 00:06:14.100 --> 00:06:16.800 that women are underrepresented. And I wonder 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:18.800 whether that's the same experience for us in 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:20.699 the third sector is the fact that we have a lot 00:06:20.699 --> 00:06:24.879 of women in L &D in the third sector also replicated 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:28.540 at that senior level. It's an interesting point. 00:06:30.620 --> 00:06:38.399 I can't say that there is a lot of women at the 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:42.129 senior level. in my organization, but likewise, 00:06:42.129 --> 00:06:47.389 that hasn't always been the case. So for me, 00:06:47.389 --> 00:06:52.529 it's difficult in my own experience to kind of 00:06:52.529 --> 00:06:57.329 comment on that. What about you, Suze? Thanks 00:06:57.329 --> 00:07:01.709 Emma. Working in health and care sectors, you 00:07:01.709 --> 00:07:05.189 do see it's more predominantly female and typically 00:07:05.189 --> 00:07:09.829 around 70 % or more in this industry. learning 00:07:09.829 --> 00:07:13.910 naturally is higher in female population, but 00:07:13.910 --> 00:07:17.850 in a kind of sector that is higher in females 00:07:17.850 --> 00:07:20.490 as well, it's even more so. So we do definitely 00:07:20.490 --> 00:07:22.290 see that more kind of predominant female base. 00:07:22.329 --> 00:07:24.410 But I think in charities as a whole, I'm working 00:07:24.410 --> 00:07:26.689 with a lot of the charity network I've been building 00:07:26.689 --> 00:07:30.129 every time, I'm seeing a lot more kind of female 00:07:30.129 --> 00:07:33.470 peers that I have when I've worked in the corporate 00:07:33.470 --> 00:07:36.709 world. I think that's interesting. I think when 00:07:36.709 --> 00:07:41.060 we look at charity and being a purpose led organization 00:07:41.060 --> 00:07:44.319 and what that means. But also I think there's 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:48.639 pieces around the flexibility in our sector and 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:51.639 they kind of the policies that we see in organizations 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:55.060 like health and social care, where there is more 00:07:55.060 --> 00:07:57.899 hours to be worked, coverage of hours, again, 00:07:58.040 --> 00:07:59.939 offers a lot more flexibility. So I think there's 00:07:59.939 --> 00:08:02.459 also the purpose side of things, but also that 00:08:02.459 --> 00:08:05.139 flexibility that leans into a woman -led sector 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:07.819 as well. But yeah, purpose -led's really, really 00:08:07.819 --> 00:08:10.779 interested on this one around the empathy piece 00:08:10.779 --> 00:08:13.660 and women working in a purpose industry. What 00:08:13.660 --> 00:08:16.420 do you think, Kerry? Yeah, I was reflecting on 00:08:16.420 --> 00:08:19.759 that. Do you think it draws women to this area 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:25.040 of work because of the care, empathy, and relational 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:28.540 skills that women can bring to working, learning, 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:32.200 and development? And I'm not saying that is only 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:34.179 gendered skills. I really want to get away from 00:08:34.179 --> 00:08:37.220 that kind of conversation as somebody who doesn't 00:08:37.220 --> 00:08:41.659 really buy into gender stereotypes. But I do 00:08:41.659 --> 00:08:43.860 notice it, you know, I do really notice that 00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:45.860 those around me that are women are more open 00:08:45.860 --> 00:08:49.379 to expressing, you know, the empathy and those 00:08:49.379 --> 00:08:52.100 sort of more vulnerable conversations, I think. 00:08:52.139 --> 00:08:54.440 And I think sometimes those are needed in learning 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:56.600 and development for all sorts of reasons, and 00:08:56.600 --> 00:08:59.240 particularly something we've, you know, I see 00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:03.129 in working animal welfare, just the emotional 00:09:03.129 --> 00:09:05.710 toll it takes on people working with that. And 00:09:05.710 --> 00:09:07.850 I'm assuming that's probably the same for you 00:09:07.850 --> 00:09:09.750 guys working, you know, in the areas of work 00:09:09.750 --> 00:09:12.419 that you have and just how... the work people 00:09:12.419 --> 00:09:14.600 are doing affects them emotionally. And I think 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:18.740 L &D has a real key role in helping people with 00:09:18.740 --> 00:09:21.279 that. And learning, you know, has a really key 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:24.500 role in helping people to thrive at work. But 00:09:24.500 --> 00:09:27.299 with that comes, you know, dealing with things 00:09:27.299 --> 00:09:31.620 like wellbeing and vulnerability and so on. I 00:09:31.620 --> 00:09:34.039 wonder how that affects you in your roles as 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:37.080 women working in this area. It's interesting 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:40.059 you said that, Kerry, because I was just thinking, 00:09:40.059 --> 00:09:45.629 you know, Do you think then that for us, as you 00:09:45.629 --> 00:09:48.049 know, women in learning in the third sector, 00:09:48.070 --> 00:09:51.970 we have a responsibility to open up those doors 00:09:51.970 --> 00:09:55.769 in terms of empathy and being able to be vulnerable 00:09:55.769 --> 00:09:58.950 and have those conversations that traditionally, 00:09:59.429 --> 00:10:01.350 like trying to stay away from gender stereotypes, 00:10:01.450 --> 00:10:03.669 I agree with you, Kerry, but traditionally, women 00:10:03.669 --> 00:10:08.210 have been allowed to do that more than men? Do 00:10:08.210 --> 00:10:11.820 you think we have a responsibility in L &D to 00:10:11.820 --> 00:10:16.179 open up that door for more people in these industries, 00:10:16.500 --> 00:10:19.740 but also do you think that then that has the 00:10:19.740 --> 00:10:23.299 potential to take a toll on the women who are 00:10:23.299 --> 00:10:25.600 working in L &D who have to then carry that kind 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:30.460 of burden? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think women 00:10:31.210 --> 00:10:35.750 I think learning in itself does have responsibility 00:10:35.750 --> 00:10:37.710 in terms of supporting people. So, you know, 00:10:37.809 --> 00:10:39.590 people, particularly in the areas that we work 00:10:39.590 --> 00:10:41.850 in, people that are dealing with trauma, that 00:10:41.850 --> 00:10:43.490 are dealing with vulnerability, you know, in 00:10:43.490 --> 00:10:46.590 crisis, whatever it might be. You know, learning 00:10:46.590 --> 00:10:48.649 does have a really key role in holding space 00:10:48.649 --> 00:10:51.450 for that and looking after people's wellbeing. 00:10:51.909 --> 00:10:54.649 And I think it does take its toll on people. 00:10:55.309 --> 00:10:57.490 I think there is a responsibility, particularly 00:10:57.490 --> 00:10:59.389 working in the charity sector or third sector, 00:11:00.580 --> 00:11:02.240 It's hard to put that away at the end of the 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:05.399 day, isn't it? It's such a purpose -driven work 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:10.980 that we do that it can feel important and it 00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:12.860 can feel like something we can't just sort of 00:11:12.860 --> 00:11:16.460 let go of at the end of the day. We can carry 00:11:16.460 --> 00:11:18.360 that as well because we're trying to support 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:20.860 people who are also carrying a heavy load at 00:11:20.860 --> 00:11:24.220 times. I think it can, I think women are probably, 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:26.519 although again, trying to steer away from gender 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:29.200 stereotypes, you know, I see that women do carry 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:34.039 that a bit and probably take on more of that 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:37.700 responsibility to try and support others. What's 00:11:37.700 --> 00:11:42.399 your view, Ed? Yeah, I agree. And I think, I 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:45.080 think L &D, so they're linking into that culture 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:48.620 and purpose piece for me in that, you know, we 00:11:48.620 --> 00:11:51.279 say very often in working in third sector that 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:54.919 we're purpose driven and it's very sort of clear 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:57.399 the purpose within the charity sector. And it's 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:01.120 what draws a lot of people to work in an organization 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:04.299 as well as volunteer, I think. And that can have 00:12:04.299 --> 00:12:08.259 its downsides because for example, in an organization 00:12:08.259 --> 00:12:11.039 that's working in suicide prevention, such as 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.899 Samaritans, you often have people with lived 00:12:13.899 --> 00:12:17.559 experience. So therefore it's a really delicate 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.980 balance with having somebody involved in your 00:12:20.980 --> 00:12:23.120 organization who brings that level of lived experience 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:26.419 and how you support them through their sort of 00:12:26.419 --> 00:12:29.120 onboarding, their learning journey. I think some 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:31.960 charities can attract people with lived experience 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:34.980 themselves. So you have learners with a lot of 00:12:34.980 --> 00:12:37.259 vulnerabilities, actually, who are really, really 00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:40.320 closely tied to the purpose of the organisation. 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.580 And that can be a very difficult thing to deal 00:12:43.580 --> 00:12:45.440 with. So you're training people who are very 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.399 vulnerable, but you're also working alongside 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:50.139 people who also may have that lived experience. 00:12:50.539 --> 00:12:53.200 And so, yes, I think I find in our organisation, 00:12:53.299 --> 00:12:55.820 it does attract a lot of women more than men 00:12:55.820 --> 00:12:58.559 in terms of staff members. And I think we do 00:12:58.539 --> 00:13:03.600 a responsibility to really help male managers, 00:13:04.059 --> 00:13:06.860 therefore, empathize better and really understand 00:13:06.860 --> 00:13:09.600 the people that they're line managing, if that 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:13.539 makes sense. It makes a lot of sense, Ed, and 00:13:13.539 --> 00:13:16.399 we see it a lot in our industry in terms of the 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.080 lived experience. We've got colleagues who have 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:22.700 been through something similar that we are supporting 00:13:22.700 --> 00:13:27.389 our client base with. then that becomes a kind 00:13:27.389 --> 00:13:29.230 of tricky balance, doesn't it? Like you say, 00:13:29.289 --> 00:13:32.269 we're supporting the colleague through their 00:13:32.269 --> 00:13:34.850 learning and their development while they're 00:13:34.850 --> 00:13:37.549 potentially still going back through some of 00:13:37.549 --> 00:13:41.789 that trauma, essentially, and then supporting 00:13:41.789 --> 00:13:45.210 clients and service users as well. So that's 00:13:45.210 --> 00:13:47.409 a tricky balance. And I think you make a good 00:13:47.409 --> 00:13:50.169 point about how we support our male colleagues 00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:54.350 in that and how we support them to understand. 00:13:54.590 --> 00:13:56.690 I wonder how you kind of tackled that a bit, 00:13:56.889 --> 00:13:58.929 Ed? Yeah, I think it's when, you know, looking 00:13:58.929 --> 00:14:01.250 at leadership behaviours. And I think there's 00:14:01.250 --> 00:14:03.690 more we could do actually to really track that 00:14:03.690 --> 00:14:06.669 in terms of perhaps gender. It would be interesting. 00:14:06.850 --> 00:14:08.450 I don't think it's, it's certainly not something 00:14:08.450 --> 00:14:11.330 we've done in L &D. But certainly when we look 00:14:11.330 --> 00:14:13.690 at, you know, those leadership competencies that 00:14:13.690 --> 00:14:17.090 we want to develop. that human connection is 00:14:17.090 --> 00:14:20.570 a really important part of that, and how to have 00:14:20.570 --> 00:14:25.149 really authentic, caring conversations. you know, 00:14:25.149 --> 00:14:28.250 to me, it's about that part of, you know, the 00:14:28.250 --> 00:14:30.210 trust equation where you have that, you know, 00:14:30.210 --> 00:14:32.669 you can be credible, you be reliable, but you 00:14:32.669 --> 00:14:35.490 also need to have intimacy as well, in order 00:14:35.490 --> 00:14:38.090 to really build trust. And I think that's where 00:14:38.090 --> 00:14:39.769 and it's not just men, because that would be 00:14:39.769 --> 00:14:42.970 hugely stereotyping. But a lot of people really 00:14:42.970 --> 00:14:45.610 struggle with that intimacy piece about really 00:14:45.610 --> 00:14:48.490 getting to know people on a personal level, boundaries, 00:14:48.490 --> 00:14:51.149 of course, in terms of line manager relationships. 00:14:51.549 --> 00:14:54.629 But that's so integral to forming trust, I think. 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.600 And yeah, I think there's people will have different 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:03.019 expectations of support, you know, and a generation 00:15:03.019 --> 00:15:04.759 perhaps comes into this as well. I should be 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:06.299 really interested to see what people think in 00:15:06.299 --> 00:15:08.799 terms of what different generations expect in 00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:13.340 terms of support. I see more sort of expectation 00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:16.519 of support from younger generations rather than 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:19.850 sort of older. generations because you're kind 00:15:19.850 --> 00:15:21.389 of like brought up we just get on with it you 00:15:21.389 --> 00:15:23.470 don't talk about that that's not a subject that 00:15:23.470 --> 00:15:26.409 you will open up about menopause being one for 00:15:26.409 --> 00:15:28.809 example you would not discuss that and you certainly 00:15:28.809 --> 00:15:31.110 would not discuss that with a male you know line 00:15:31.110 --> 00:15:34.350 manager for example whereas now I think it's 00:15:34.350 --> 00:15:36.389 much more expected or starting to become much 00:15:36.389 --> 00:15:39.580 more expected. I'm just going to pick up on that, 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:42.299 actually, Ed, and I wonder, we circle right back 00:15:42.299 --> 00:15:44.480 to the beginning where we were talking about 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.279 lots of women in L &D, but potentially not in 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:51.440 those top spots, and picking up on the issue 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:55.379 of menopause and support. Do you think there's 00:15:55.379 --> 00:15:58.799 a correlation to that time of life potentially 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:02.320 where women are dropping out of the top spot 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:05.840 race because of menopause and things like that, 00:16:06.100 --> 00:16:08.759 where for whatever reason, that's making them 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.379 feel like they can't take that next step to the 00:16:12.379 --> 00:16:14.799 seat higher up. Yes. And I'd be really interested 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:18.179 to hear from what your organizations are doing 00:16:18.179 --> 00:16:20.340 in this space as well, because I think it's something 00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:23.360 we really have started at Samaritans by having 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:26.139 a menopause support group, a network group where 00:16:26.139 --> 00:16:29.019 we do have people who are able to come and talk 00:16:29.019 --> 00:16:32.019 about this and sharing experiences and how it 00:16:32.019 --> 00:16:35.440 makes you feel in relation to your ability, because 00:16:35.610 --> 00:16:38.090 there's certainly a lot of voices I hear from 00:16:38.090 --> 00:16:41.049 women at that stage of life who are saying, I 00:16:41.049 --> 00:16:43.850 just don't think I don't feel competent anymore. 00:16:44.230 --> 00:16:47.509 Actually, what's happened to me, you know, can 00:16:47.509 --> 00:16:49.269 I can I really do this? Am I any good at what 00:16:49.269 --> 00:16:51.629 I'm doing? And I think perhaps sometimes women 00:16:51.629 --> 00:16:53.830 have those sort of at that imposter syndrome, 00:16:54.730 --> 00:16:58.570 more than men sometimes anyway, but I think when 00:16:58.570 --> 00:17:00.750 you hit menopause, it just becomes even more 00:17:01.339 --> 00:17:03.220 difficult with all of those things that you experience 00:17:03.220 --> 00:17:06.619 along, you know, with anxiety and just real self 00:17:06.619 --> 00:17:09.259 -doubt. Yes, and I think it does stop women from 00:17:09.259 --> 00:17:12.640 really being visible at that time of their life. 00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:14.819 I don't know what other, yeah, what other people 00:17:14.819 --> 00:17:16.680 have done in their organization. Yeah, I agree. 00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:19.019 I've only been at Battersea for a week, but they 00:17:19.019 --> 00:17:21.000 also have, they also pay a lot of attention to 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:22.619 Menopause, which is wonderful. And they have 00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:26.970 a awareness group as well. I think something 00:17:26.970 --> 00:17:31.150 I've been reflecting on recently is that when 00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:33.730 you get to the age, when someone is a cis female 00:17:33.730 --> 00:17:37.690 at birth who is experiencing menopause, gets 00:17:37.690 --> 00:17:40.650 to the age where that's happening, they're also 00:17:40.650 --> 00:17:42.970 dealing with a lot of other life pressures. It's 00:17:42.970 --> 00:17:45.309 often that, you know, that they're taking care 00:17:45.309 --> 00:17:48.609 of children in the home, if they have a family, 00:17:49.029 --> 00:17:52.990 and often parents and elderly family members 00:17:52.990 --> 00:17:55.309 as well. And it's just, it all kind of comes 00:17:55.309 --> 00:17:59.640 at once at a very similar stage of life. So I 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.119 think menopause can be a big factor and we know 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.900 that women tend to take a step back from work 00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:07.160 because of the pressures and feeling like they 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:11.500 can't perform or they are not going to be able 00:18:11.500 --> 00:18:14.839 to succeed or achieve because of the way that 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:17.809 menopause is affecting them. And so they're likely 00:18:17.809 --> 00:18:21.529 to reduce hours or even leave roles because of 00:18:21.529 --> 00:18:24.150 that. And that's really going to affect their 00:18:24.150 --> 00:18:26.589 progress in terms of seniority. If they're looking, 00:18:26.769 --> 00:18:28.690 if they're ambitious and they're looking to move 00:18:28.690 --> 00:18:31.450 into more senior roles, I really think biology 00:18:31.450 --> 00:18:34.210 is against women and it can really affect that 00:18:34.210 --> 00:18:37.630 happening, which is terrible. And that's why 00:18:37.630 --> 00:18:40.190 I'm so pleased to see more and more organizations. 00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:43.380 focusing on menopause awareness and supporting 00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:46.440 those who experience menopause in the workplace. 00:18:47.380 --> 00:18:51.000 Because it's so important that we get more, you 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:54.420 know, women in senior roles for, you know, for 00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:55.799 all the things that we've already been talking 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:58.319 about. But there's real benefits to seeing women 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:01.980 getting up there for change. I'm very fortunate 00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:03.880 that in the organisations I've worked in actually, 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:08.940 whilst Yeah, I'm seeing peers are, there's a 00:19:08.940 --> 00:19:11.740 lot of women in the organization doing, working 00:19:11.740 --> 00:19:14.279 in the learning space. That's also the case at 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:16.539 senior level, which is great until, you know, 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.579 someone like myself who's looking for those. 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.160 more senior role models who are women and are 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.740 in influential positions. That's really inspirational 00:19:25.740 --> 00:19:27.779 for me. Suze, what's your experience of this? 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:31.920 Yes, we're very similar in we have those support 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:35.619 groups. We've done a lot around kind of information 00:19:35.619 --> 00:19:38.079 sharing and understanding menopause. And I think 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.960 one of the most important factors here is spreading 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:43.579 awareness of menopause. Of course, that support 00:19:43.579 --> 00:19:45.440 for those people that are going through menopause 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.589 at work is crucial, but also for other people 00:19:48.589 --> 00:19:51.069 around them to understand what menopause is. 00:19:51.170 --> 00:19:53.069 And I think for men to learn about menopause 00:19:53.069 --> 00:19:55.190 has been really important. And so there's been 00:19:55.190 --> 00:19:57.049 a lot of work we've been doing around that over 00:19:57.049 --> 00:19:58.829 the last couple of years. And I think importantly, 00:19:59.069 --> 00:20:02.049 both in corporate and charity sectors, is you're 00:20:02.049 --> 00:20:04.109 now starting to see more things around menopause 00:20:04.109 --> 00:20:07.809 policies and processes. And it's now become a 00:20:07.809 --> 00:20:13.450 factor of conversation and reasons for adjustment 00:20:13.450 --> 00:20:15.809 and so forth, whereas before it was quite a taboo 00:20:15.809 --> 00:20:19.609 topic. So absolutely, I think we are seeing a 00:20:19.609 --> 00:20:22.289 big improvement across the board and of course 00:20:22.289 --> 00:20:24.970 in the last five years even, I'd say. I'd love 00:20:24.970 --> 00:20:26.730 to lean into some of the things that Edwina was 00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:29.549 mentioning before around leadership and when 00:20:29.549 --> 00:20:31.769 we were talking about women in leadership and 00:20:31.769 --> 00:20:38.559 generations as well. And actually how we lead 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:41.859 L &D within purpose -led organizations really 00:20:41.859 --> 00:20:44.059 kind of focuses on that at the moment. And I 00:20:44.059 --> 00:20:48.599 think being mission -driven organizations typically 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:50.619 means a lot of our people, so a lot of our staff 00:20:50.619 --> 00:20:52.900 and our volunteers are also quite mission -driven. 00:20:53.059 --> 00:20:55.960 So when we look at our learning, that can really 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:58.480 boost engagement with some of the topics that 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.019 we're doing and their desire to do a good job. 00:21:01.829 --> 00:21:04.349 some of the topics around compassion, fatigue 00:21:04.349 --> 00:21:06.349 and stuff comes out of this for them as well 00:21:06.349 --> 00:21:08.750 as externally and that's up here in love to its 00:21:08.750 --> 00:21:11.569 floor. But thinking of things like our values, 00:21:11.789 --> 00:21:14.849 things like respect and collaboration, all of 00:21:14.849 --> 00:21:17.069 that really shapes some of our learning priorities 00:21:17.069 --> 00:21:20.099 at. at our hospice and I think this is something 00:21:20.099 --> 00:21:22.859 that things like our leadership programme training 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:26.440 can include things like ethics and resilience 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:28.740 training. I think a lot of that helps our leaders 00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:31.700 to support our people in our organisation with 00:21:31.700 --> 00:21:34.900 that purpose -led focus because of that kind 00:21:34.900 --> 00:21:38.940 of need and drive to perhaps do more than is 00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:41.420 physically possible in some cases. Some of the 00:21:41.420 --> 00:21:43.740 things we've been looking at around kind of coaching 00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:47.849 and mentoring to really help people as they work 00:21:47.849 --> 00:21:50.630 through their careers at all stages. And then 00:21:50.630 --> 00:21:52.250 the other thing you were talking about around 00:21:52.250 --> 00:21:55.890 generations, and I'm really interested in the, 00:21:56.450 --> 00:21:58.029 and I'd love to talk about digital learning at 00:21:58.029 --> 00:21:59.329 some point as well, because I think this is a 00:21:59.329 --> 00:22:02.150 generational piece, but looking at learning in 00:22:02.150 --> 00:22:03.970 different generations, and we're at a point now 00:22:03.970 --> 00:22:06.930 where we're seeing, we're still seeing boomers 00:22:06.930 --> 00:22:09.109 in our population, especially with volunteers. 00:22:09.589 --> 00:22:13.789 And we're also seeing Gen Z coming in, who are 00:22:13.789 --> 00:22:16.289 expecting more from their learning in the moment, 00:22:16.289 --> 00:22:19.630 really really snappy, much more digital learning, 00:22:20.390 --> 00:22:22.410 mobile first, that kind of thing, whereas you've 00:22:22.410 --> 00:22:24.109 still got that preference for face -to -face 00:22:24.109 --> 00:22:27.210 for boomers as well. So I think there's a real 00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:29.309 piece here when you're leaning to generations 00:22:29.309 --> 00:22:31.130 earlier, I think from a learning perspective, 00:22:31.250 --> 00:22:34.009 we've got so many different angles to think about 00:22:34.009 --> 00:22:37.789 what our leaders need, gender, generation, all 00:22:37.789 --> 00:22:41.339 of that is key points to consider. What do you 00:22:41.339 --> 00:22:44.220 guys think? I was, yeah, I think to pick up on 00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:47.480 your first point about purpose -led organizations 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:50.500 and that being such a key focus of everything 00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:52.839 we do, you know, at Samaritans, for example, 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.579 you know, it's about us as callers, about our 00:22:55.579 --> 00:22:57.880 callers. Our callers are what leads us as an 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:00.619 organization and moving away, we've moved away 00:23:00.619 --> 00:23:03.599 from referring to ourselves as a volunteer -led 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:05.779 organization, you know, we're caller -led. It's 00:23:05.779 --> 00:23:08.480 about those people that need us. And having that 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:11.359 sense of purpose linked into through all of our 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:13.819 learning and everything that we do is about our 00:23:13.819 --> 00:23:17.400 purpose. But I think it's very easy to lose sight 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:21.180 of, do we actually walk the talk? And we can 00:23:21.180 --> 00:23:24.779 say we're an organization with values, our behaviors 00:23:24.779 --> 00:23:27.299 about support and trust and respect, for example, 00:23:27.299 --> 00:23:30.259 and power of human connection being really important. 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:32.819 But what does that actually mean in practice? 00:23:32.859 --> 00:23:35.539 And are we living that as part of our culture? 00:23:35.859 --> 00:23:39.160 And that's definitely a piece that we're exploring 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:42.319 at the moment. And I think, and I'd have to look 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:45.220 at where this was, but I think there's an NCVO 00:23:45.220 --> 00:23:50.059 piece recently about this, about how purpose 00:23:50.059 --> 00:23:53.299 -driven organizations often lose sight of what 00:23:53.299 --> 00:23:56.960 the culture is within the organization. I think 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:00.380 that's a really important focus for us. It brings 00:24:00.380 --> 00:24:03.000 us back to the conversation we were having earlier 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.000 about how your behaviors and your leadership 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.839 behaviors can really embody the culture within 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:11.000 the organization. It's not just about purpose. 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:13.500 I think people leave organizations because of 00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:17.539 a culture issue, not because of a lack of connection 00:24:17.539 --> 00:24:20.819 with the purpose. in the end. So yeah, interesting. 00:24:21.220 --> 00:24:24.359 Kerry, I don't know what you think. Well, what's 00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:28.140 learning's role then in that, in embedding or 00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:31.160 transitioning a culture? Because sometimes that 00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:33.000 needs to happen, right? Culture needs to change. 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:34.380 And I'm not talking about learning culture, I 00:24:34.380 --> 00:24:35.960 might just talk about organisational culture. 00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:38.960 And having worked in animal welfare, I'm really 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:41.960 acutely aware that there's subcultures that live 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:45.990 within organisations as well. What's learning's 00:24:45.990 --> 00:24:48.750 role in that, in culture, do you think? And what 00:24:48.750 --> 00:24:50.809 are the opportunities for learning to have an 00:24:50.809 --> 00:24:54.430 influence on it? I've often found myself describing 00:24:54.430 --> 00:24:58.210 L &D in our organisation as holding up a mirror 00:24:58.210 --> 00:25:01.349 to the rest of the organisation. So being really 00:25:01.349 --> 00:25:04.170 part of how we shape behaviours and how we develop 00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:08.190 leadership behaviours in all of our learning 00:25:08.190 --> 00:25:11.789 initiatives. So when you see something that isn't 00:25:11.789 --> 00:25:14.410 actually role modeling or somebody who isn't 00:25:14.410 --> 00:25:16.170 role modeling that and this is a really difficult 00:25:16.170 --> 00:25:18.210 and they're difficult conversations to have but 00:25:18.210 --> 00:25:19.970 where there are opportunities to hold the mirror 00:25:19.970 --> 00:25:24.289 up then to say actually those two things aren't 00:25:24.289 --> 00:25:26.430 you know aren't really joining up here and it's 00:25:26.430 --> 00:25:27.890 not really being embodied and that sometimes 00:25:27.890 --> 00:25:30.190 is those you know quite brave conversations to 00:25:30.190 --> 00:25:32.690 have upwards you know to senior leadership within 00:25:32.690 --> 00:25:35.250 the organization but again you have to have the 00:25:35.250 --> 00:25:37.680 culture where you feel safe to do that. which 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.180 is difficult. So I guess it's almost like a never 00:25:40.180 --> 00:25:43.019 -ending, you know, vicious circle, as it were. 00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:46.700 But yeah, I think that's part of L &D's role. 00:25:46.859 --> 00:25:48.640 I don't know about you, Emma, what your thoughts 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:51.960 are on that. I absolutely agree. I think, you 00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:55.359 know, we talk about courageous conversations, 00:25:55.460 --> 00:25:57.619 because that's ultimately what they have to be, 00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:00.400 you know. But you're so right, there's got to 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.380 be psychological safety alongside that for you 00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:06.869 to to feel that you can be courageous. But in 00:26:06.869 --> 00:26:10.170 terms of culture, I think quite often we see 00:26:10.170 --> 00:26:14.049 at an executive level, you know. those CEOs and 00:26:14.049 --> 00:26:16.609 executive team members kind of saying, this is 00:26:16.609 --> 00:26:19.750 our values, this is our culture, and then crossing 00:26:19.750 --> 00:26:21.710 their fingers and hoping for the best because 00:26:21.710 --> 00:26:23.829 actually delivering that is everybody else's 00:26:23.829 --> 00:26:27.029 job. And I think when it comes to learning, it's 00:26:27.029 --> 00:26:30.369 our responsibility to tie everything we do back 00:26:30.369 --> 00:26:32.910 into those behaviors. You know, if this is our 00:26:32.910 --> 00:26:36.089 culture, what behaviors sit underneath that? 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:39.880 to help drive that culture because we need everybody 00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:43.480 to be committed to safety, for example, whatever 00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:47.299 behaviors it is that are right within your organization 00:26:47.299 --> 00:26:50.960 being customer focused. That's got to tie into 00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.299 everything we do. You can't just say, here, have 00:26:54.299 --> 00:26:57.380 some compassion fatigue learning. What does that 00:26:57.380 --> 00:27:00.000 actually mean? How is that changing the culture? 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:03.680 And alongside this training, it's the stories 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:06.799 we tell. What stories are going on? on you know 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:08.740 around the organization and Kerry you talked 00:27:08.740 --> 00:27:12.380 about subcultures and that's often where those 00:27:12.380 --> 00:27:15.759 stories are those little little individual pockets 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:20.000 of stories that are more powerful than you know 00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.440 our executive teams going ah but this is our 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:24.259 culture let's just cross our fingers off you 00:27:24.259 --> 00:27:28.740 go you know how how do we how do we, I suppose 00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:30.819 the next question is, that's a great idea, but 00:27:30.819 --> 00:27:33.319 how do we get those stories out in the right 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:36.440 way? Really interesting reflections. And I think 00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:39.539 learning and culture really do go hand in hand. 00:27:39.859 --> 00:27:42.339 And I think sometimes about our values and how 00:27:42.339 --> 00:27:44.940 we can embed that in our learning and what our 00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:47.880 learning can encourage. So straight away, I think 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:51.559 about things like collaboration and how through 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:53.839 learning initiatives, we are bringing parts of 00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:56.059 the organization and those pockets of cultures 00:27:56.059 --> 00:27:58.859 together. to share their experiences and share 00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:01.240 these stories. And I think sometimes the stories 00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:03.960 are best coming from these people and actually 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.039 then sharing those in these populations. And 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:09.619 interestingly, you're talking about purpose being 00:28:09.619 --> 00:28:12.900 such a driver for people. And sometimes I think 00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:14.920 it takes something like learning to understand 00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:18.279 the impact people are having on purpose. And 00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:20.319 when we think about people being motivated or 00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:23.180 their intrinsic motivators being purpose. Sometimes 00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:26.720 our role as learning specialists is to really 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:29.240 reinforce that kind of purpose by showing the 00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:31.599 impact that they're having and these stories 00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:35.259 and transforming those stories into why that's 00:28:35.259 --> 00:28:37.380 had an impact on purpose and how that's helped 00:28:37.380 --> 00:28:39.680 us to achieve our mission. So almost linking 00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:42.619 every programme that we do live there into our 00:28:42.619 --> 00:28:45.980 values and into our outcomes. So for example, 00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:48.900 when leaders see how their development how their 00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:51.960 development improves our patient care, engagements 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:54.579 could improve. And so they can see the links 00:28:54.579 --> 00:28:57.480 there. So I think learning has a huge impact 00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:01.460 on culture and bringing all of those motivation 00:29:01.460 --> 00:29:04.779 factors into realisation for them, to connect 00:29:04.779 --> 00:29:07.680 the dots, so to speak. But yeah, I mean, bringing 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:10.140 all the different values in is a real key factor, 00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:12.259 I think, into learning. And our initiatives can 00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:14.259 give so many different ways than to do that. 00:29:14.430 --> 00:29:16.490 I think sometimes, particularly with organisations 00:29:16.490 --> 00:29:18.769 I've worked in, it can be quite difficult to 00:29:18.769 --> 00:29:20.849 reach people and to try and reach people all 00:29:20.849 --> 00:29:22.250 in the same way. And so you have to be quite 00:29:22.250 --> 00:29:25.549 creative, don't you, to think about so that the 00:29:25.549 --> 00:29:28.029 values aren't just on a bit of paper or a poster 00:29:28.029 --> 00:29:33.930 on a wall. How do you bring people to that one 00:29:33.930 --> 00:29:37.349 culture rather than allow those subcultures to 00:29:37.349 --> 00:29:40.329 continue? That's no mean feat, is it, to try 00:29:40.329 --> 00:29:42.630 and... to try and do that. And I think that's 00:29:42.630 --> 00:29:44.650 one of the challenges, you know, I've had particularly 00:29:44.650 --> 00:29:47.089 working in third sector is how do you reach those 00:29:47.089 --> 00:29:48.890 people, particularly on frontline, you know, 00:29:48.890 --> 00:29:52.869 who are really prioritising that work, that the 00:29:52.869 --> 00:29:57.009 real, you know, purpose driven work that, you 00:29:57.009 --> 00:29:59.609 know, is the reason that the organisation exists. 00:30:00.230 --> 00:30:03.349 And really trying to reach them can be quite 00:30:03.349 --> 00:30:05.069 difficult. I think that's one of the main challenges 00:30:05.069 --> 00:30:09.009 for us working in the sector, you know, in the 00:30:09.009 --> 00:30:12.359 welfare area that I do. What challenges do you 00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:16.079 find in your work? I'd agree, Kerry. I think 00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:19.480 it's getting something out to all the different 00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.940 organisations, particularly if you have quite 00:30:22.940 --> 00:30:25.700 a large geographical spread as well. So you're 00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:29.160 not just facing that challenge of people doing 00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:31.359 completely different jobs in completely different 00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:33.579 areas. Some are office -bound, some are hybrid, 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:37.259 some are completely out in the field. And you 00:30:37.259 --> 00:30:41.450 said earlier, Edwina, about connection. And that's 00:30:41.450 --> 00:30:44.470 a real challenge for us. But I wonder if we're 00:30:44.470 --> 00:30:48.309 always focused on our idea of connection being 00:30:48.309 --> 00:30:51.309 completely in person, you know, that in order 00:30:51.309 --> 00:30:53.950 to be connected, we have to be face to face with 00:30:53.950 --> 00:30:56.869 the people we're trying to reach. And maybe we 00:30:56.869 --> 00:30:59.869 need to, sort of linking into Generation Lee 00:30:59.869 --> 00:31:03.670 and your comment about the digital age sues, 00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:06.190 maybe we need to be clever about that in the 00:31:06.190 --> 00:31:09.630 third sector and think more about you know, how 00:31:09.630 --> 00:31:12.809 we get that connection. We've got young people, 00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:14.650 I've got, you know, children who say they've 00:31:14.650 --> 00:31:16.349 been hanging out with their mates. Well, actually 00:31:16.349 --> 00:31:18.269 what they've been doing is sitting on their Xbox, 00:31:18.390 --> 00:31:20.529 on their headphones, talking to people that way. 00:31:20.789 --> 00:31:23.509 But for them, that feels really, they feel really 00:31:23.509 --> 00:31:25.990 connected. So how can we leverage some of that 00:31:25.990 --> 00:31:29.029 to alleviate some of these challenges? I don't 00:31:29.029 --> 00:31:32.180 know if there is a solution. That's really interesting, 00:31:32.339 --> 00:31:35.119 Emma. I think, yeah, that piece about distance 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:38.579 and technology and how we get the messages across. 00:31:38.740 --> 00:31:40.779 I think it's so interlinked, isn't it? You know, 00:31:41.140 --> 00:31:44.380 in an organization, we've got 20 ,000 plus volunteers 00:31:44.380 --> 00:31:47.880 and only 300 staff. It's a completely different 00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:52.740 dynamic. And a lot of our volunteers are, they're 00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:54.779 not linked into our digital systems, actually. 00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:56.339 So this comes to your point, Sue, about, you 00:31:56.339 --> 00:31:59.480 know, how we get learning out. to people in that 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:02.240 way. And a lot of that is due to financial constraints. 00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:05.380 We just don't have the money as an organization 00:32:05.380 --> 00:32:09.180 to provide digital access and equipment to everybody. 00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:11.599 So relying on people using their own equipment, 00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:16.180 their own sort of digital capability and digital 00:32:16.180 --> 00:32:18.259 literacy in order to connect this. And we're 00:32:18.259 --> 00:32:20.619 having to make some assumptions about people. 00:32:21.470 --> 00:32:25.029 That's a really big challenge for us as a charity 00:32:25.029 --> 00:32:30.009 in how do we really, really get to our audience. 00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:34.019 out there with learning. And maybe podcasts is 00:32:34.019 --> 00:32:36.059 one to explore, actually. To me, it's always 00:32:36.059 --> 00:32:37.839 seemed like something that I hadn't really thought 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:40.319 about. Maybe just need to do a few little recordings 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:43.059 every now and then, a few conversations and find 00:32:43.059 --> 00:32:46.279 a way of getting it out that's not on our LMS, 00:32:46.420 --> 00:32:49.619 but a different way of how we could reach people. 00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.359 Yeah. And maybe you're right, Edwina, maybe that 00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:56.009 is, you know, a podcast is a... a way to distribute 00:32:56.009 --> 00:32:59.910 learning across the generations. We always used 00:32:59.910 --> 00:33:02.430 to take the mick out of my Nana for her to still 00:33:02.430 --> 00:33:04.990 talk about the radio as being the wireless. And 00:33:04.990 --> 00:33:06.650 you'd go around and visit her for a cup of tea 00:33:06.650 --> 00:33:08.609 and a piece of cake and in the background would 00:33:08.609 --> 00:33:11.170 be the wireless. It would just be that noise. 00:33:11.650 --> 00:33:14.190 So that's a generation that are used to having 00:33:14.190 --> 00:33:16.210 somebody speaking to them in the background and 00:33:16.210 --> 00:33:19.069 then getting information that way. Right down 00:33:19.069 --> 00:33:21.670 through the generations, podcasts are available 00:33:21.670 --> 00:33:24.009 to everybody. And in terms of distance as well, 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:26.420 you know, our frontline workers who are out in 00:33:26.420 --> 00:33:28.900 the fields, they can pop that on while they're 00:33:28.900 --> 00:33:31.359 in their vans going from this job to that job. 00:33:31.660 --> 00:33:34.460 It's something that they can access and consume. 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:38.059 And you can start it as you will, as you need 00:33:38.059 --> 00:33:40.460 to. You know, you haven't got that, or where 00:33:40.460 --> 00:33:42.640 was I in this? It just picks it back up where 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:45.140 it was. So maybe, you know, we giggled about 00:33:45.140 --> 00:33:46.880 it because we're on a podcast, so that sounds 00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:49.619 great, you know, but perhaps it is, you know, 00:33:49.779 --> 00:33:53.390 actually a solution staring us in the face. And 00:33:53.390 --> 00:33:55.269 one thing's for sure, I feel like we have to 00:33:55.269 --> 00:33:58.089 be creative working in our sector to reach people 00:33:58.089 --> 00:34:02.750 because one format is not going to work with 00:34:02.750 --> 00:34:06.609 everyone and also the limitations we have on 00:34:06.609 --> 00:34:10.610 costs. And so I'm always thinking of what's the 00:34:10.610 --> 00:34:12.329 different solutions we can be using, blended 00:34:12.329 --> 00:34:16.710 deliveries. is something we still focus on a 00:34:16.710 --> 00:34:19.250 lot. And yeah, I'm looking forward to finding 00:34:19.250 --> 00:34:21.409 more creative solutions about how we reach people, 00:34:21.650 --> 00:34:23.250 particularly on the frontline. I'd love to continue 00:34:23.250 --> 00:34:24.949 that conversation with you all, because I think 00:34:24.949 --> 00:34:27.570 it is always an ongoing challenge. And that can 00:34:27.570 --> 00:34:31.190 lead to further siloed working and those subcultures 00:34:31.190 --> 00:34:34.309 continuing, which is not a place we want to be. 00:34:34.389 --> 00:34:36.349 So we're always looking at how we can develop 00:34:36.349 --> 00:34:40.960 more. you know, and engage people more in learning 00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:43.219 in different ways. And that cross -generational 00:34:43.219 --> 00:34:46.880 point is really key, isn't it, as well as geographical 00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:49.380 location and all sorts of things and people accessing 00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:52.480 technology and actually being able to give them 00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:55.179 the access that we want them to have. Yeah, I 00:34:55.179 --> 00:34:58.460 totally agree, Kerry. And so the thinking about, 00:34:58.460 --> 00:35:01.039 you know, coming sort of full circle back to 00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:03.420 the beginning of our podcast and talking about 00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:06.000 We're here on our podcast today as women in the 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.719 third sector in L &D. I wonder what some final 00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:15.059 observations might be from you all on what does 00:35:15.059 --> 00:35:17.539 it mean to be a woman in third sector learning? 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:20.719 What's your experience of that, if there's one 00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.480 takeaway that you'd want people to know? I think 00:35:23.480 --> 00:35:27.860 for me, it's about us having a link to our values, 00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:31.539 having a link to social impact, and just being 00:35:31.539 --> 00:35:33.780 able to make a difference in an organization 00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:36.260 that really, really matters. And it's not necessarily 00:35:36.260 --> 00:35:37.920 even about being a woman, it's just about being 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.360 that something that matters to us as an individual, 00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:42.199 like I said, coming away from the stereotype. 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:45.519 But absolutely for me as a woman in learning, 00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:48.099 working in the third sector has been a very different 00:35:48.099 --> 00:35:50.659 experience for me as when I've worked in a corporate 00:35:50.659 --> 00:35:55.530 sector. just having that personal link and that, 00:35:55.530 --> 00:35:58.449 yeah, the impact I know that this role is having 00:35:58.449 --> 00:36:02.670 on others is really evident for me. Thanks, Suze. 00:36:02.769 --> 00:36:06.050 What about you, Kerry? Yeah, I think for me, 00:36:06.369 --> 00:36:08.889 what we want people to know is that working in 00:36:08.889 --> 00:36:12.170 the third sector is, you know, it's wonderful. 00:36:12.429 --> 00:36:15.909 It's also extremely complex and challenging. 00:36:16.090 --> 00:36:18.309 And there are so many constraints that we have 00:36:18.309 --> 00:36:22.869 to... work within and against sometimes, which 00:36:22.869 --> 00:36:26.949 makes it such like... an interesting varied sector 00:36:26.949 --> 00:36:30.309 to work in. It's just the challenges are so interesting 00:36:30.309 --> 00:36:33.130 and very, very rewarding because of the nature 00:36:33.130 --> 00:36:35.309 of the organizations that we work in. So, you 00:36:35.309 --> 00:36:37.110 know, working for a purpose -driven organization 00:36:37.110 --> 00:36:39.909 is really inspiring to me. It's very, you know, 00:36:40.110 --> 00:36:41.809 personally satisfying having worked in corporate 00:36:41.809 --> 00:36:43.989 before. I know this is where I want to be and 00:36:43.989 --> 00:36:47.309 where I want to stay. And I know that, you know, 00:36:47.429 --> 00:36:49.710 you really feel like you can make an impact in 00:36:49.710 --> 00:36:51.389 this sector. I've definitely felt that in the 00:36:51.389 --> 00:36:53.230 organizations I work in. I hope, you know, you 00:36:53.230 --> 00:36:56.329 feel the same. to, but that is what drives me 00:36:56.329 --> 00:36:57.750 and that's what drives a lot of people working 00:36:57.750 --> 00:36:59.449 in the sector in the first place, let alone in 00:36:59.449 --> 00:37:05.469 learning. But I feel that learning could have 00:37:05.469 --> 00:37:07.489 such a really key influence and needs to have 00:37:07.489 --> 00:37:10.869 more of a voice in organizations because it really 00:37:10.869 --> 00:37:14.769 can drive so much positive change in an organization. 00:37:15.150 --> 00:37:18.389 So yeah, I would say to people, come and do it. 00:37:18.449 --> 00:37:20.329 It's brilliant, really great experiences and 00:37:20.329 --> 00:37:25.150 you'll learn so much. And I really hope people 00:37:25.150 --> 00:37:28.550 see the value that that experience brings to 00:37:28.550 --> 00:37:30.170 someone working and they can go and work in any 00:37:30.170 --> 00:37:32.530 sector. And I really dislike the kind of the 00:37:32.530 --> 00:37:35.110 view that it's all much more important, high 00:37:35.110 --> 00:37:39.219 powered in corporate world, but actually. I don't 00:37:39.219 --> 00:37:41.239 agree with that at all. I think charity is where 00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:43.960 it's at and where you're really going to have 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:46.440 some wonderful experiences and meet and work 00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:50.900 with some wonderful people as well who you will 00:37:50.900 --> 00:37:54.000 want to be connected with for life because of 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:57.219 it. So yeah, that's my thought on it. Totally 00:37:57.219 --> 00:38:00.360 agree. What about you, Emma? I think I would 00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:04.619 absolutely second Kerry. I've had a very squiggly 00:38:04.619 --> 00:38:07.460 career and I've been very fortunate, I think. 00:38:07.530 --> 00:38:10.329 But I have always worked in public or third sector. 00:38:10.730 --> 00:38:13.789 So I don't necessarily have that third sector 00:38:13.789 --> 00:38:17.070 corporate comparison that you might have. And 00:38:17.070 --> 00:38:20.090 maybe that speaks to how great it is to work 00:38:20.090 --> 00:38:22.809 in the third sector in itself that I've never 00:38:22.809 --> 00:38:26.280 had a desire. to leave that. I think your rights 00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:29.920 is a values -led thing. There's feeling like 00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:32.300 you can do a really good job, but you actually 00:38:32.300 --> 00:38:35.440 have made a difference at the end of the day. 00:38:35.780 --> 00:38:39.059 And it's been a theme through the whole podcast 00:38:39.059 --> 00:38:42.519 that it's connection. I think often when you 00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:44.460 listen to friends who are in the corporate world, 00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:46.880 they're all quite secretive. This is my organization 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:49.000 and this is what we do, and we can't reveal any 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:53.099 of our secrets. Whereas the network and the connections 00:38:53.099 --> 00:38:56.960 that I've found through the third sector, the 00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:59.960 other women in the learning, it's great. And 00:38:59.960 --> 00:39:02.139 doing something like this that you can just learn 00:39:02.139 --> 00:39:05.659 so much in, you know, half an hour of conversation. 00:39:05.659 --> 00:39:09.000 And I think that's the thing for me that has 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:11.920 made being a woman in learning in the third sector 00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:14.760 so fab. Yeah, I agree, Emma. I think for me, 00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:17.360 it's about how we actually, when we do get together, 00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:19.860 we just share so much, don't we, about what we're 00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:22.460 doing, about how we're approaching staff, innovations, 00:39:22.940 --> 00:39:27.260 ideas, tips, resources. I think there's a huge 00:39:27.260 --> 00:39:30.139 amount of openness within our sector, which is 00:39:30.139 --> 00:39:32.199 really great and that we're all supporting each 00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:36.159 other on our, you know, different purposes. Yeah, 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:38.800 which is really great as women or not. And I 00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:40.630 think some really There are some really great 00:39:40.630 --> 00:39:43.429 female role models as well, actually within the 00:39:43.429 --> 00:39:44.849 third sector. You know, there's some really great 00:39:44.849 --> 00:39:48.730 female CEOs that inspire me. So yeah, that's 00:39:48.730 --> 00:39:51.650 a really positive thing too. You know what, talking 00:39:51.650 --> 00:39:53.730 to all of you today, you're all amazing role 00:39:53.730 --> 00:39:56.190 models. So thank you all for this time. I've 00:39:56.190 --> 00:39:57.989 really enjoyed it. I'd love to continue connecting 00:39:57.989 --> 00:40:00.750 with you and seeing how things go. Definitely. 00:40:00.909 --> 00:40:04.210 Thank you so much, Kerry. Likewise. Yeah, I think 00:40:04.210 --> 00:40:06.550 you're all brilliant. Let's keep talking. Yeah. 00:40:06.550 --> 00:40:08.309 Thank you so much. Thanks, Sue. Thanks, Kerry. 00:40:08.449 --> 00:40:10.610 Thanks, Edrina. Goodbye, everyone. Take care. 00:40:10.849 --> 00:40:15.050 Take care. Bye. This episode surfaced the realities 00:40:15.050 --> 00:40:18.369 of learning in the third sector. We know purpose 00:40:18.369 --> 00:40:21.550 is central, but it comes with pressure, emotional 00:40:21.550 --> 00:40:25.570 labour and constant trade -offs. Across the conversation, 00:40:25.590 --> 00:40:27.750 it was really intriguing to hear how learning 00:40:27.750 --> 00:40:32.369 shows up, not as a program, but as culture, leadership 00:40:32.369 --> 00:40:36.530 behaviour and everyday support. I do wonder whether 00:40:36.530 --> 00:40:39.030 we can learn more outside of the third sector 00:40:39.030 --> 00:40:42.670 from that approach. A huge thank you to Kerry, 00:40:42.869 --> 00:40:45.789 Edwina, Suze and Emma for sharing their experiences 00:40:45.789 --> 00:40:48.409 so generously. You'll find all their details 00:40:48.409 --> 00:40:50.269 as well as all the links which were mentioned 00:40:50.269 --> 00:40:53.230 in the show notes. We're back in a couple of 00:40:53.230 --> 00:40:57.389 weeks and next time it's... The Lost One. As 00:40:57.389 --> 00:40:59.730 always, thank you for listening and we'll see 00:40:59.730 --> 00:41:00.409 you again soon.