Before we dive in, a quick moment. Most learning
gets talked about, but little of it gets recorded.
On February 26th, that changes. The Podcast Learning
Festival is happening at Mary Sumner House in
London, a one -day event for people who care
about how podcasting and learning come together
to make work smarter and more human. You'll be
in rooms where people are recording real conversations.
sharing what actually works and exploring what
happens when learning becomes something you can
hear, not just attend. It's for creators, learning
leaders and anyone curious about using audio
to change practice, not just talk about it. Tickers
and details are at podcastlearningfest .live
and the links in the show notes. Now, on with
the episode. Hello everyone and welcome to this
episode, the third sector one of the Women Talking
About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. First
of all, Happy New Year for 2026 and we're kicking
off the first of this year's episodes. Having
worked in the third sector for some time in my
career, this is a subject that is close to home.
L &D in the third sector often operates with
limited time, capacity and budget compared to
the private sector. This necessitates creative,
cost -effective solutions. And to discuss this
further, we have four fantastic guests. Our first
guest is Kerry Gabriel O'Sullivan. Kerry is a
learning and organisational development leader
with over 15 years' experience in the third sector
within animal welfare. They've led national learning
strategies and shaped organisational culture
in complex, emotionally demanding environments.
Our second guest is Edwina Daniels. Edwina is
an experienced learning and development leader
with a strong track record in the charity sector.
She specialises in creating accessible, engaging
and inclusive learning solutions that drive impact
and foster engagement. Our third guest is Suze
Taylor. Suze is a learning and development manager
with approximately 20 years experience designing
and delivering impactful learning strategies.
For the past four years, she has worked in the
charity sector with St Peter's Hospice, creating
programmes that build leadership capability and
foster a culture of learning. Our final guest
is Emma Withnell. Emma is a learning and development
professional with over 15 years experience designing
and delivering engaging learning across the NHS,
education and social housing. She's a qualified
and experienced coach specialising in supporting
neurodiverse individuals and women to build confidence,
recognise their strengths and perform at their
best. Recorded in November 2025, this is a wonderful
conversation. So please settle back and enjoy.
This is women talking about learning. This is
Kerry, Edwina, Suze and Emma talking about the
third sector. Hi, everyone. It is absolutely
great to see you. How are you all doing? Good.
Good. Thank you. Very good. Thanks. Fantastic.
Thank you very much. I'd love to know a little
bit about kind of what got you guys to come on
and do this podcast today and kind of how you
got to where you are now and where we're sat
here today. Yeah. So I think for me, it was get
contact through through other network sort of
colleagues within L &D who mentioned this and
I wasn't aware of the podcast and having listened
to some episodes now I thought it would be really
interesting to take part and definitely that
third sector aspect in terms of what's unique
about our sector because I think we probably
just take it for granted sometimes and it's not
until you start talking to others and realise
that there's a lot of shared experience and perspectives
to be had. Yeah, so that was my thinking, Suze.
Thanks. That's a really good point, Edwina, because
you talked there about networks and connecting
with this through other platforms. And we use
Charity Learning Consortium and that was who
introduced us onto the platform as well. And
likewise, it's given me up to these podcasts
and has helped me to listen to a few other things
as well. It's been really useful. Kerry, what
about you? Yeah, me too. Ed and I used to work
together many moons ago and so similarly we sort
of heard about it at the same time and yeah,
I really value connecting with other people in
the sector. and particularly wants to hear about
people's experience working and learning in the
sector and women, you know, it's something that
I think we can all have unique perceptions on.
But also I feel, you know, particularly for me,
my experience of working in L &D in the sector,
that it is actually mainly women working in it.
So, you know, I think we've got a we've got a
lot of interesting perspectives that we can share.
So I'm looking forward to talking to you today.
How about you Emma? Yeah, same as you, Suze.
I heard about the podcast through the Charity
Learning Consortium and the community that is
built around that has been really great for me,
opened up a lot of opportunities for networking
with other people in the third sector and in
learning. And like you say, Kerry, particularly
women, we are quite a women. dominated kind of
profession, I think. For me, coming on the podcast
was a really, really great opportunity to hear
from some other really great, clever women and
share some of that and absorb some of that. It's
interesting. Go ahead, Edwina. I was just going
to pick up on what you'd said, Suze. Well, actually,
I can't remember who it was who actually said
it, but I think a couple of people have mentioned
about being women in learning and in the third
sector that there's a lot of women in sort of
in our charity sectors or the sectors that we're
working in. Yet we see normally across the board,
there's a lot of men though in senior positions
that women are underrepresented. And I wonder
whether that's the same experience for us in
the third sector is the fact that we have a lot
of women in L &D in the third sector also replicated
at that senior level. It's an interesting point.
I can't say that there is a lot of women at the
senior level. in my organization, but likewise,
that hasn't always been the case. So for me,
it's difficult in my own experience to kind of
comment on that. What about you, Suze? Thanks
Emma. Working in health and care sectors, you
do see it's more predominantly female and typically
around 70 % or more in this industry. learning
naturally is higher in female population, but
in a kind of sector that is higher in females
as well, it's even more so. So we do definitely
see that more kind of predominant female base.
But I think in charities as a whole, I'm working
with a lot of the charity network I've been building
every time, I'm seeing a lot more kind of female
peers that I have when I've worked in the corporate
world. I think that's interesting. I think when
we look at charity and being a purpose led organization
and what that means. But also I think there's
pieces around the flexibility in our sector and
they kind of the policies that we see in organizations
like health and social care, where there is more
hours to be worked, coverage of hours, again,
offers a lot more flexibility. So I think there's
also the purpose side of things, but also that
flexibility that leans into a woman -led sector
as well. But yeah, purpose -led's really, really
interested on this one around the empathy piece
and women working in a purpose industry. What
do you think, Kerry? Yeah, I was reflecting on
that. Do you think it draws women to this area
of work because of the care, empathy, and relational
skills that women can bring to working, learning,
and development? And I'm not saying that is only
gendered skills. I really want to get away from
that kind of conversation as somebody who doesn't
really buy into gender stereotypes. But I do
notice it, you know, I do really notice that
those around me that are women are more open
to expressing, you know, the empathy and those
sort of more vulnerable conversations, I think.
And I think sometimes those are needed in learning
and development for all sorts of reasons, and
particularly something we've, you know, I see
in working animal welfare, just the emotional
toll it takes on people working with that. And
I'm assuming that's probably the same for you
guys working, you know, in the areas of work
that you have and just how... the work people
are doing affects them emotionally. And I think
L &D has a real key role in helping people with
that. And learning, you know, has a really key
role in helping people to thrive at work. But
with that comes, you know, dealing with things
like wellbeing and vulnerability and so on. I
wonder how that affects you in your roles as
women working in this area. It's interesting
you said that, Kerry, because I was just thinking,
you know, Do you think then that for us, as you
know, women in learning in the third sector,
we have a responsibility to open up those doors
in terms of empathy and being able to be vulnerable
and have those conversations that traditionally,
like trying to stay away from gender stereotypes,
I agree with you, Kerry, but traditionally, women
have been allowed to do that more than men? Do
you think we have a responsibility in L &D to
open up that door for more people in these industries,
but also do you think that then that has the
potential to take a toll on the women who are
working in L &D who have to then carry that kind
of burden? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think women
I think learning in itself does have responsibility
in terms of supporting people. So, you know,
people, particularly in the areas that we work
in, people that are dealing with trauma, that
are dealing with vulnerability, you know, in
crisis, whatever it might be. You know, learning
does have a really key role in holding space
for that and looking after people's wellbeing.
And I think it does take its toll on people.
I think there is a responsibility, particularly
working in the charity sector or third sector,
It's hard to put that away at the end of the
day, isn't it? It's such a purpose -driven work
that we do that it can feel important and it
can feel like something we can't just sort of
let go of at the end of the day. We can carry
that as well because we're trying to support
people who are also carrying a heavy load at
times. I think it can, I think women are probably,
although again, trying to steer away from gender
stereotypes, you know, I see that women do carry
that a bit and probably take on more of that
responsibility to try and support others. What's
your view, Ed? Yeah, I agree. And I think, I
think L &D, so they're linking into that culture
and purpose piece for me in that, you know, we
say very often in working in third sector that
we're purpose driven and it's very sort of clear
the purpose within the charity sector. And it's
what draws a lot of people to work in an organization
as well as volunteer, I think. And that can have
its downsides because for example, in an organization
that's working in suicide prevention, such as
Samaritans, you often have people with lived
experience. So therefore it's a really delicate
balance with having somebody involved in your
organization who brings that level of lived experience
and how you support them through their sort of
onboarding, their learning journey. I think some
charities can attract people with lived experience
themselves. So you have learners with a lot of
vulnerabilities, actually, who are really, really
closely tied to the purpose of the organisation.
And that can be a very difficult thing to deal
with. So you're training people who are very
vulnerable, but you're also working alongside
people who also may have that lived experience.
And so, yes, I think I find in our organisation,
it does attract a lot of women more than men
in terms of staff members. And I think we do
a responsibility to really help male managers,
therefore, empathize better and really understand
the people that they're line managing, if that
makes sense. It makes a lot of sense, Ed, and
we see it a lot in our industry in terms of the
lived experience. We've got colleagues who have
been through something similar that we are supporting
our client base with. then that becomes a kind
of tricky balance, doesn't it? Like you say,
we're supporting the colleague through their
learning and their development while they're
potentially still going back through some of
that trauma, essentially, and then supporting
clients and service users as well. So that's
a tricky balance. And I think you make a good
point about how we support our male colleagues
in that and how we support them to understand.
I wonder how you kind of tackled that a bit,
Ed? Yeah, I think it's when, you know, looking
at leadership behaviours. And I think there's
more we could do actually to really track that
in terms of perhaps gender. It would be interesting.
I don't think it's, it's certainly not something
we've done in L &D. But certainly when we look
at, you know, those leadership competencies that
we want to develop. that human connection is
a really important part of that, and how to have
really authentic, caring conversations. you know,
to me, it's about that part of, you know, the
trust equation where you have that, you know,
you can be credible, you be reliable, but you
also need to have intimacy as well, in order
to really build trust. And I think that's where
and it's not just men, because that would be
hugely stereotyping. But a lot of people really
struggle with that intimacy piece about really
getting to know people on a personal level, boundaries,
of course, in terms of line manager relationships.
But that's so integral to forming trust, I think.
And yeah, I think there's people will have different
expectations of support, you know, and a generation
perhaps comes into this as well. I should be
really interested to see what people think in
terms of what different generations expect in
terms of support. I see more sort of expectation
of support from younger generations rather than
sort of older. generations because you're kind
of like brought up we just get on with it you
don't talk about that that's not a subject that
you will open up about menopause being one for
example you would not discuss that and you certainly
would not discuss that with a male you know line
manager for example whereas now I think it's
much more expected or starting to become much
more expected. I'm just going to pick up on that,
actually, Ed, and I wonder, we circle right back
to the beginning where we were talking about
lots of women in L &D, but potentially not in
those top spots, and picking up on the issue
of menopause and support. Do you think there's
a correlation to that time of life potentially
where women are dropping out of the top spot
race because of menopause and things like that,
where for whatever reason, that's making them
feel like they can't take that next step to the
seat higher up. Yes. And I'd be really interested
to hear from what your organizations are doing
in this space as well, because I think it's something
we really have started at Samaritans by having
a menopause support group, a network group where
we do have people who are able to come and talk
about this and sharing experiences and how it
makes you feel in relation to your ability, because
there's certainly a lot of voices I hear from
women at that stage of life who are saying, I
just don't think I don't feel competent anymore.
Actually, what's happened to me, you know, can
I can I really do this? Am I any good at what
I'm doing? And I think perhaps sometimes women
have those sort of at that imposter syndrome,
more than men sometimes anyway, but I think when
you hit menopause, it just becomes even more
difficult with all of those things that you experience
along, you know, with anxiety and just real self
-doubt. Yes, and I think it does stop women from
really being visible at that time of their life.
I don't know what other, yeah, what other people
have done in their organization. Yeah, I agree.
I've only been at Battersea for a week, but they
also have, they also pay a lot of attention to
Menopause, which is wonderful. And they have
a awareness group as well. I think something
I've been reflecting on recently is that when
you get to the age, when someone is a cis female
at birth who is experiencing menopause, gets
to the age where that's happening, they're also
dealing with a lot of other life pressures. It's
often that, you know, that they're taking care
of children in the home, if they have a family,
and often parents and elderly family members
as well. And it's just, it all kind of comes
at once at a very similar stage of life. So I
think menopause can be a big factor and we know
that women tend to take a step back from work
because of the pressures and feeling like they
can't perform or they are not going to be able
to succeed or achieve because of the way that
menopause is affecting them. And so they're likely
to reduce hours or even leave roles because of
that. And that's really going to affect their
progress in terms of seniority. If they're looking,
if they're ambitious and they're looking to move
into more senior roles, I really think biology
is against women and it can really affect that
happening, which is terrible. And that's why
I'm so pleased to see more and more organizations.
focusing on menopause awareness and supporting
those who experience menopause in the workplace.
Because it's so important that we get more, you
know, women in senior roles for, you know, for
all the things that we've already been talking
about. But there's real benefits to seeing women
getting up there for change. I'm very fortunate
that in the organisations I've worked in actually,
whilst Yeah, I'm seeing peers are, there's a
lot of women in the organization doing, working
in the learning space. That's also the case at
senior level, which is great until, you know,
someone like myself who's looking for those.
more senior role models who are women and are
in influential positions. That's really inspirational
for me. Suze, what's your experience of this?
Yes, we're very similar in we have those support
groups. We've done a lot around kind of information
sharing and understanding menopause. And I think
one of the most important factors here is spreading
awareness of menopause. Of course, that support
for those people that are going through menopause
at work is crucial, but also for other people
around them to understand what menopause is.
And I think for men to learn about menopause
has been really important. And so there's been
a lot of work we've been doing around that over
the last couple of years. And I think importantly,
both in corporate and charity sectors, is you're
now starting to see more things around menopause
policies and processes. And it's now become a
factor of conversation and reasons for adjustment
and so forth, whereas before it was quite a taboo
topic. So absolutely, I think we are seeing a
big improvement across the board and of course
in the last five years even, I'd say. I'd love
to lean into some of the things that Edwina was
mentioning before around leadership and when
we were talking about women in leadership and
generations as well. And actually how we lead
L &D within purpose -led organizations really
kind of focuses on that at the moment. And I
think being mission -driven organizations typically
means a lot of our people, so a lot of our staff
and our volunteers are also quite mission -driven.
So when we look at our learning, that can really
boost engagement with some of the topics that
we're doing and their desire to do a good job.
some of the topics around compassion, fatigue
and stuff comes out of this for them as well
as externally and that's up here in love to its
floor. But thinking of things like our values,
things like respect and collaboration, all of
that really shapes some of our learning priorities
at. at our hospice and I think this is something
that things like our leadership programme training
can include things like ethics and resilience
training. I think a lot of that helps our leaders
to support our people in our organisation with
that purpose -led focus because of that kind
of need and drive to perhaps do more than is
physically possible in some cases. Some of the
things we've been looking at around kind of coaching
and mentoring to really help people as they work
through their careers at all stages. And then
the other thing you were talking about around
generations, and I'm really interested in the,
and I'd love to talk about digital learning at
some point as well, because I think this is a
generational piece, but looking at learning in
different generations, and we're at a point now
where we're seeing, we're still seeing boomers
in our population, especially with volunteers.
And we're also seeing Gen Z coming in, who are
expecting more from their learning in the moment,
really really snappy, much more digital learning,
mobile first, that kind of thing, whereas you've
still got that preference for face -to -face
for boomers as well. So I think there's a real
piece here when you're leaning to generations
earlier, I think from a learning perspective,
we've got so many different angles to think about
what our leaders need, gender, generation, all
of that is key points to consider. What do you
guys think? I was, yeah, I think to pick up on
your first point about purpose -led organizations
and that being such a key focus of everything
we do, you know, at Samaritans, for example,
you know, it's about us as callers, about our
callers. Our callers are what leads us as an
organization and moving away, we've moved away
from referring to ourselves as a volunteer -led
organization, you know, we're caller -led. It's
about those people that need us. And having that
sense of purpose linked into through all of our
learning and everything that we do is about our
purpose. But I think it's very easy to lose sight
of, do we actually walk the talk? And we can
say we're an organization with values, our behaviors
about support and trust and respect, for example,
and power of human connection being really important.
But what does that actually mean in practice?
And are we living that as part of our culture?
And that's definitely a piece that we're exploring
at the moment. And I think, and I'd have to look
at where this was, but I think there's an NCVO
piece recently about this, about how purpose
-driven organizations often lose sight of what
the culture is within the organization. I think
that's a really important focus for us. It brings
us back to the conversation we were having earlier
about how your behaviors and your leadership
behaviors can really embody the culture within
the organization. It's not just about purpose.
I think people leave organizations because of
a culture issue, not because of a lack of connection
with the purpose. in the end. So yeah, interesting.
Kerry, I don't know what you think. Well, what's
learning's role then in that, in embedding or
transitioning a culture? Because sometimes that
needs to happen, right? Culture needs to change.
And I'm not talking about learning culture, I
might just talk about organisational culture.
And having worked in animal welfare, I'm really
acutely aware that there's subcultures that live
within organisations as well. What's learning's
role in that, in culture, do you think? And what
are the opportunities for learning to have an
influence on it? I've often found myself describing
L &D in our organisation as holding up a mirror
to the rest of the organisation. So being really
part of how we shape behaviours and how we develop
leadership behaviours in all of our learning
initiatives. So when you see something that isn't
actually role modeling or somebody who isn't
role modeling that and this is a really difficult
and they're difficult conversations to have but
where there are opportunities to hold the mirror
up then to say actually those two things aren't
you know aren't really joining up here and it's
not really being embodied and that sometimes
is those you know quite brave conversations to
have upwards you know to senior leadership within
the organization but again you have to have the
culture where you feel safe to do that. which
is difficult. So I guess it's almost like a never
-ending, you know, vicious circle, as it were.
But yeah, I think that's part of L &D's role.
I don't know about you, Emma, what your thoughts
are on that. I absolutely agree. I think, you
know, we talk about courageous conversations,
because that's ultimately what they have to be,
you know. But you're so right, there's got to
be psychological safety alongside that for you
to to feel that you can be courageous. But in
terms of culture, I think quite often we see
at an executive level, you know. those CEOs and
executive team members kind of saying, this is
our values, this is our culture, and then crossing
their fingers and hoping for the best because
actually delivering that is everybody else's
job. And I think when it comes to learning, it's
our responsibility to tie everything we do back
into those behaviors. You know, if this is our
culture, what behaviors sit underneath that?
to help drive that culture because we need everybody
to be committed to safety, for example, whatever
behaviors it is that are right within your organization
being customer focused. That's got to tie into
everything we do. You can't just say, here, have
some compassion fatigue learning. What does that
actually mean? How is that changing the culture?
And alongside this training, it's the stories
we tell. What stories are going on? on you know
around the organization and Kerry you talked
about subcultures and that's often where those
stories are those little little individual pockets
of stories that are more powerful than you know
our executive teams going ah but this is our
culture let's just cross our fingers off you
go you know how how do we how do we, I suppose
the next question is, that's a great idea, but
how do we get those stories out in the right
way? Really interesting reflections. And I think
learning and culture really do go hand in hand.
And I think sometimes about our values and how
we can embed that in our learning and what our
learning can encourage. So straight away, I think
about things like collaboration and how through
learning initiatives, we are bringing parts of
the organization and those pockets of cultures
together. to share their experiences and share
these stories. And I think sometimes the stories
are best coming from these people and actually
then sharing those in these populations. And
interestingly, you're talking about purpose being
such a driver for people. And sometimes I think
it takes something like learning to understand
the impact people are having on purpose. And
when we think about people being motivated or
their intrinsic motivators being purpose. Sometimes
our role as learning specialists is to really
reinforce that kind of purpose by showing the
impact that they're having and these stories
and transforming those stories into why that's
had an impact on purpose and how that's helped
us to achieve our mission. So almost linking
every programme that we do live there into our
values and into our outcomes. So for example,
when leaders see how their development how their
development improves our patient care, engagements
could improve. And so they can see the links
there. So I think learning has a huge impact
on culture and bringing all of those motivation
factors into realisation for them, to connect
the dots, so to speak. But yeah, I mean, bringing
all the different values in is a real key factor,
I think, into learning. And our initiatives can
give so many different ways than to do that.
I think sometimes, particularly with organisations
I've worked in, it can be quite difficult to
reach people and to try and reach people all
in the same way. And so you have to be quite
creative, don't you, to think about so that the
values aren't just on a bit of paper or a poster
on a wall. How do you bring people to that one
culture rather than allow those subcultures to
continue? That's no mean feat, is it, to try
and... to try and do that. And I think that's
one of the challenges, you know, I've had particularly
working in third sector is how do you reach those
people, particularly on frontline, you know,
who are really prioritising that work, that the
real, you know, purpose driven work that, you
know, is the reason that the organisation exists.
And really trying to reach them can be quite
difficult. I think that's one of the main challenges
for us working in the sector, you know, in the
welfare area that I do. What challenges do you
find in your work? I'd agree, Kerry. I think
it's getting something out to all the different
organisations, particularly if you have quite
a large geographical spread as well. So you're
not just facing that challenge of people doing
completely different jobs in completely different
areas. Some are office -bound, some are hybrid,
some are completely out in the field. And you
said earlier, Edwina, about connection. And that's
a real challenge for us. But I wonder if we're
always focused on our idea of connection being
completely in person, you know, that in order
to be connected, we have to be face to face with
the people we're trying to reach. And maybe we
need to, sort of linking into Generation Lee
and your comment about the digital age sues,
maybe we need to be clever about that in the
third sector and think more about you know, how
we get that connection. We've got young people,
I've got, you know, children who say they've
been hanging out with their mates. Well, actually
what they've been doing is sitting on their Xbox,
on their headphones, talking to people that way.
But for them, that feels really, they feel really
connected. So how can we leverage some of that
to alleviate some of these challenges? I don't
know if there is a solution. That's really interesting,
Emma. I think, yeah, that piece about distance
and technology and how we get the messages across.
I think it's so interlinked, isn't it? You know,
in an organization, we've got 20 ,000 plus volunteers
and only 300 staff. It's a completely different
dynamic. And a lot of our volunteers are, they're
not linked into our digital systems, actually.
So this comes to your point, Sue, about, you
know, how we get learning out. to people in that
way. And a lot of that is due to financial constraints.
We just don't have the money as an organization
to provide digital access and equipment to everybody.
So relying on people using their own equipment,
their own sort of digital capability and digital
literacy in order to connect this. And we're
having to make some assumptions about people.
That's a really big challenge for us as a charity
in how do we really, really get to our audience.
out there with learning. And maybe podcasts is
one to explore, actually. To me, it's always
seemed like something that I hadn't really thought
about. Maybe just need to do a few little recordings
every now and then, a few conversations and find
a way of getting it out that's not on our LMS,
but a different way of how we could reach people.
Yeah. And maybe you're right, Edwina, maybe that
is, you know, a podcast is a... a way to distribute
learning across the generations. We always used
to take the mick out of my Nana for her to still
talk about the radio as being the wireless. And
you'd go around and visit her for a cup of tea
and a piece of cake and in the background would
be the wireless. It would just be that noise.
So that's a generation that are used to having
somebody speaking to them in the background and
then getting information that way. Right down
through the generations, podcasts are available
to everybody. And in terms of distance as well,
you know, our frontline workers who are out in
the fields, they can pop that on while they're
in their vans going from this job to that job.
It's something that they can access and consume.
And you can start it as you will, as you need
to. You know, you haven't got that, or where
was I in this? It just picks it back up where
it was. So maybe, you know, we giggled about
it because we're on a podcast, so that sounds
great, you know, but perhaps it is, you know,
actually a solution staring us in the face. And
one thing's for sure, I feel like we have to
be creative working in our sector to reach people
because one format is not going to work with
everyone and also the limitations we have on
costs. And so I'm always thinking of what's the
different solutions we can be using, blended
deliveries. is something we still focus on a
lot. And yeah, I'm looking forward to finding
more creative solutions about how we reach people,
particularly on the frontline. I'd love to continue
that conversation with you all, because I think
it is always an ongoing challenge. And that can
lead to further siloed working and those subcultures
continuing, which is not a place we want to be.
So we're always looking at how we can develop
more. you know, and engage people more in learning
in different ways. And that cross -generational
point is really key, isn't it, as well as geographical
location and all sorts of things and people accessing
technology and actually being able to give them
the access that we want them to have. Yeah, I
totally agree, Kerry. And so the thinking about,
you know, coming sort of full circle back to
the beginning of our podcast and talking about
We're here on our podcast today as women in the
third sector in L &D. I wonder what some final
observations might be from you all on what does
it mean to be a woman in third sector learning?
What's your experience of that, if there's one
takeaway that you'd want people to know? I think
for me, it's about us having a link to our values,
having a link to social impact, and just being
able to make a difference in an organization
that really, really matters. And it's not necessarily
even about being a woman, it's just about being
that something that matters to us as an individual,
like I said, coming away from the stereotype.
But absolutely for me as a woman in learning,
working in the third sector has been a very different
experience for me as when I've worked in a corporate
sector. just having that personal link and that,
yeah, the impact I know that this role is having
on others is really evident for me. Thanks, Suze.
What about you, Kerry? Yeah, I think for me,
what we want people to know is that working in
the third sector is, you know, it's wonderful.
It's also extremely complex and challenging.
And there are so many constraints that we have
to... work within and against sometimes, which
makes it such like... an interesting varied sector
to work in. It's just the challenges are so interesting
and very, very rewarding because of the nature
of the organizations that we work in. So, you
know, working for a purpose -driven organization
is really inspiring to me. It's very, you know,
personally satisfying having worked in corporate
before. I know this is where I want to be and
where I want to stay. And I know that, you know,
you really feel like you can make an impact in
this sector. I've definitely felt that in the
organizations I work in. I hope, you know, you
feel the same. to, but that is what drives me
and that's what drives a lot of people working
in the sector in the first place, let alone in
learning. But I feel that learning could have
such a really key influence and needs to have
more of a voice in organizations because it really
can drive so much positive change in an organization.
So yeah, I would say to people, come and do it.
It's brilliant, really great experiences and
you'll learn so much. And I really hope people
see the value that that experience brings to
someone working and they can go and work in any
sector. And I really dislike the kind of the
view that it's all much more important, high
powered in corporate world, but actually. I don't
agree with that at all. I think charity is where
it's at and where you're really going to have
some wonderful experiences and meet and work
with some wonderful people as well who you will
want to be connected with for life because of
it. So yeah, that's my thought on it. Totally
agree. What about you, Emma? I think I would
absolutely second Kerry. I've had a very squiggly
career and I've been very fortunate, I think.
But I have always worked in public or third sector.
So I don't necessarily have that third sector
corporate comparison that you might have. And
maybe that speaks to how great it is to work
in the third sector in itself that I've never
had a desire. to leave that. I think your rights
is a values -led thing. There's feeling like
you can do a really good job, but you actually
have made a difference at the end of the day.
And it's been a theme through the whole podcast
that it's connection. I think often when you
listen to friends who are in the corporate world,
they're all quite secretive. This is my organization
and this is what we do, and we can't reveal any
of our secrets. Whereas the network and the connections
that I've found through the third sector, the
other women in the learning, it's great. And
doing something like this that you can just learn
so much in, you know, half an hour of conversation.
And I think that's the thing for me that has
made being a woman in learning in the third sector
so fab. Yeah, I agree, Emma. I think for me,
it's about how we actually, when we do get together,
we just share so much, don't we, about what we're
doing, about how we're approaching staff, innovations,
ideas, tips, resources. I think there's a huge
amount of openness within our sector, which is
really great and that we're all supporting each
other on our, you know, different purposes. Yeah,
which is really great as women or not. And I
think some really There are some really great
female role models as well, actually within the
third sector. You know, there's some really great
female CEOs that inspire me. So yeah, that's
a really positive thing too. You know what, talking
to all of you today, you're all amazing role
models. So thank you all for this time. I've
really enjoyed it. I'd love to continue connecting
with you and seeing how things go. Definitely.
Thank you so much, Kerry. Likewise. Yeah, I think
you're all brilliant. Let's keep talking. Yeah.
Thank you so much. Thanks, Sue. Thanks, Kerry.
Thanks, Edrina. Goodbye, everyone. Take care.
Take care. Bye. This episode surfaced the realities
of learning in the third sector. We know purpose
is central, but it comes with pressure, emotional
labour and constant trade -offs. Across the conversation,
it was really intriguing to hear how learning
shows up, not as a program, but as culture, leadership
behaviour and everyday support. I do wonder whether
we can learn more outside of the third sector
from that approach. A huge thank you to Kerry,
Edwina, Suze and Emma for sharing their experiences
so generously. You'll find all their details
as well as all the links which were mentioned
in the show notes. We're back in a couple of
weeks and next time it's... The Lost One. As
always, thank you for listening and we'll see
you again soon.