WEBVTT 00:00:00.680 --> 00:00:04.019 Before we get started, a quick note. We're running 00:00:04.019 --> 00:00:06.500 the Podcast Learning Festival in London on Thursday, 00:00:06.660 --> 00:00:10.000 February 26th at Mary Sumner House in Westminster, 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:13.359 central London. It's a one -day event for anyone 00:00:13.359 --> 00:00:16.120 exploring how audio can change learning at work 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:20.620 through stories, conversations and voice. You'll 00:00:20.620 --> 00:00:23.199 hear from people using podcasts to build connections, 00:00:23.539 --> 00:00:27.769 share knowledge and shift culture. Expect ideas 00:00:27.769 --> 00:00:30.089 you can take straight back to your organisation. 00:00:31.050 --> 00:00:34.329 To find out more and grab your early bird ticket, 00:00:34.609 --> 00:00:40.549 go to podcastlearningfest .live. Alright, let's 00:00:40.549 --> 00:00:54.710 get into the episode. Hello everyone and welcome 00:00:54.710 --> 00:00:57.469 to this episode of the Female Voice One of the 00:00:57.469 --> 00:00:59.869 Women Talking About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew 00:00:59.869 --> 00:01:03.969 Jacobs. It still frustrates me even now that 00:01:03.969 --> 00:01:06.189 women are struggling to have their voice heard. 00:01:06.670 --> 00:01:09.129 That's why we love the fact that we can contribute 00:01:09.129 --> 00:01:12.370 in some small way for women to do this on the 00:01:12.370 --> 00:01:15.730 podcast. With this in mind, we decided to do 00:01:15.730 --> 00:01:18.109 an episode on the subject with two amazing women, 00:01:18.250 --> 00:01:21.109 both returning to the podcast. Our first guest 00:01:21.109 --> 00:01:24.189 is Ainsley Sesniak. She's the founder and CEO 00:01:24.189 --> 00:01:26.810 of Speak Out Sisterhood, a non -profit empowering 00:01:26.810 --> 00:01:29.230 young professional women in STEM to be agents 00:01:29.230 --> 00:01:32.670 of social change. As a third -year Honors Carolina 00:01:32.670 --> 00:01:35.569 scholar at the University of North Carolina at 00:01:35.569 --> 00:01:38.609 Chapel Hill, she's studying biology, chemistry 00:01:38.609 --> 00:01:41.549 and entrepreneurship on the pre -medical track. 00:01:42.409 --> 00:01:45.069 Ainsley is incredibly passionate about the power 00:01:45.069 --> 00:01:48.189 of education, collaboration and social entrepreneurship 00:01:48.189 --> 00:01:52.239 to drive sustainable progress. Our second guest 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.920 is Alison Shea. Alison is a fourth -generation 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.159 educator who couldn't fight her destiny, and 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:01.480 she heads up global learning and development 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:05.019 for a tech startup. Her background also includes 00:02:05.019 --> 00:02:07.359 consulting and learning product development. 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:10.520 In addition to speaking at conferences and delivering 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:13.180 award -winning workshops, Alison is passionate 00:02:13.180 --> 00:02:16.419 about volunteering, mentoring and paying it forward. 00:02:16.780 --> 00:02:20.270 This is an astounding conversation. Recorded 00:02:20.270 --> 00:02:23.610 in September of 2025, this is Women Talking About 00:02:23.610 --> 00:02:27.509 Learning, this is Ainsley and Alison talking 00:02:27.509 --> 00:02:31.449 about female voice. Hey there, my name is Ainsley. 00:02:31.550 --> 00:02:34.449 I'm really, really excited to be here. I am a 00:02:34.449 --> 00:02:37.150 junior at UNC Chapel Hill in the United States, 00:02:37.189 --> 00:02:41.189 and I also am the founder and CEO of a nonprofit 00:02:41.189 --> 00:02:44.030 called Speak Out Sisterhood. We're a global nonprofit 00:02:44.030 --> 00:02:46.949 for young professional women in STEM and something 00:02:46.949 --> 00:02:49.969 that I really care a lot about. I also care a 00:02:49.969 --> 00:02:52.969 lot about women's health and particularly closing 00:02:52.969 --> 00:02:55.870 the gender health gap in medical education. So 00:02:55.870 --> 00:02:59.229 that's where I'm at. So excited to be here. I'm 00:02:59.229 --> 00:03:01.789 so excited to talk to you. I am Alison Shea. 00:03:01.889 --> 00:03:06.129 I am a fourth generation educator. As I like 00:03:06.129 --> 00:03:08.050 to say, I couldn't fight my destiny kicking and 00:03:08.050 --> 00:03:12.490 screaming. And, you know, I was raised by a feminist, 00:03:12.550 --> 00:03:14.969 by a couple of feminists, actually, both my mom 00:03:14.969 --> 00:03:18.349 and my dad. And I was taught from a very young 00:03:18.349 --> 00:03:21.710 age that, you know. girls could do anything boys 00:03:21.710 --> 00:03:23.370 could do. My mother actually used to rewrite 00:03:23.370 --> 00:03:26.090 my sexist children's books. And because I couldn't 00:03:26.090 --> 00:03:28.189 read yet, I didn't know that that's not how the 00:03:28.189 --> 00:03:31.990 story went until many years later. And so I was 00:03:31.990 --> 00:03:34.729 really lucky to grow up with all these messages 00:03:34.729 --> 00:03:37.810 of empowerment. And I never got told the narratives 00:03:37.810 --> 00:03:40.250 of like, you know, boys this and girls that, 00:03:40.389 --> 00:03:43.090 right? It was really about, you know, you can 00:03:43.090 --> 00:03:46.330 be anything, you can do anything you want. And 00:03:46.330 --> 00:03:50.340 so in the work that I do today, which is really 00:03:50.340 --> 00:03:53.419 helping to make people, you know, sort of better 00:03:53.419 --> 00:03:55.479 and help people grow and helping to make teams 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.280 better and managers and organizations and really 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:01.979 to smooth out some of the systemic issues we 00:04:01.979 --> 00:04:04.639 might have that, you know, within the systems 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:06.840 that we put together for learning and for growth 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:09.159 and for business getting done. You know, basically, 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:11.419 I'm a curious cat who likes to come along and 00:04:11.419 --> 00:04:13.840 fix things and make things better and see where 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:16.519 I can, you know, see where I can help. So that's... 00:04:17.290 --> 00:04:19.569 doesn't fit neatly on a business card, but that's 00:04:19.569 --> 00:04:22.509 kind of what I do. I love that. I love that. 00:04:22.529 --> 00:04:24.670 I love that so much, especially because education 00:04:24.670 --> 00:04:28.209 is, as I've gone in through my college career, 00:04:28.310 --> 00:04:30.529 I have definitely come to appreciate the power 00:04:30.529 --> 00:04:33.870 of education, particularly in de -stigmatizing 00:04:33.870 --> 00:04:37.769 things and bridging those gaps and breaking down 00:04:37.769 --> 00:04:43.470 systemic barriers. So I might go ahead and take 00:04:43.470 --> 00:04:46.180 your practice of rewriting stories. To get rid 00:04:46.180 --> 00:04:48.000 of the sexist undertones, because I love that 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:51.620 because that's such a good explicit way to combat 00:04:51.620 --> 00:04:55.180 that kind of attempts to perpetuate a false narrative. 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:57.779 And it can be, you know, and I think that's a 00:04:57.779 --> 00:04:59.500 really good point. And I think it's one of those 00:04:59.500 --> 00:05:03.139 things where it can be it can be really sort 00:05:03.139 --> 00:05:05.759 of public or it can be really private. There's 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:08.480 a book that I have from my childhood, which I 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:13.180 adore, which is called. Oh, wow. I'm blanking 00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:15.699 on the name of it. Somebody in the terrible, 00:05:15.740 --> 00:05:19.220 horrible, no good, very bad day. Right. What's 00:05:19.220 --> 00:05:20.980 the kid's name? I'm totally blanking on whatever. 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:24.600 It is. It's Alexander in the terrible, horrible, 00:05:24.660 --> 00:05:27.180 no good, very bad day. And it's a really great 00:05:27.180 --> 00:05:29.279 book. And it's a great book for kids because 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.480 it's a great book that sort of says, hey. Some 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:34.079 days are like that, even in Australia. That's 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:37.180 the line in the book. But you get to the to the 00:05:37.180 --> 00:05:39.860 part about why Alexander's Day is so bad. And 00:05:39.860 --> 00:05:41.860 it's like, you know, so -and -so's mom packed 00:05:41.860 --> 00:05:43.939 them this in their lunch. And so -and -so's mom 00:05:43.939 --> 00:05:46.040 packed this in their lunch. You know, and it's 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.100 like this just assumption that only mothers are 00:05:49.100 --> 00:05:51.720 doing, you know, the lunch packing. And so when 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:55.000 I. Oh my gosh, I never would have. Yeah. And 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:58.399 I don't know if my mother or father were reading 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:01.000 it, like with inclusive language as a child. 00:06:01.100 --> 00:06:03.040 And that's why I never knew that that's what 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:06.519 the words were. But I am I automatically edit 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:08.879 it whenever I'm reading it to my kids. Because 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:13.160 that's so interesting. Wow. Yeah. I think that's 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:15.579 just it like the power of the voice, right? The 00:06:15.579 --> 00:06:18.100 power of the voice to change things. And so and 00:06:18.100 --> 00:06:22.540 I know, yeah, no, no, go ahead. And I know that's 00:06:22.540 --> 00:06:23.720 what we're here to talk about, right? The female 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:26.600 voice and just sort of what we interpret that 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:29.199 to be. And I can start if you want, and then 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.779 we can kind of go from there. I will say, especially 00:06:31.779 --> 00:06:36.740 recently, I think about the female voice, particularly 00:06:36.740 --> 00:06:41.139 in terms of sort of the wariness and the danger 00:06:41.139 --> 00:06:43.860 around using your voice as a woman. There is 00:06:43.860 --> 00:06:47.399 a lot of discourse on my college campus just 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:50.199 recently about... And just within my friends, 00:06:50.300 --> 00:06:54.779 too, of how can you use your voice to communicate 00:06:54.779 --> 00:06:57.699 things that matter to you and speak up for what's 00:06:57.699 --> 00:07:00.060 right while also protecting yourself at the same 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:05.779 time and protecting your peace and your security. 00:07:06.060 --> 00:07:08.639 So it's a really, really hard line to walk, especially 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:11.839 when you add on the element of if you are advocating 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:14.000 for women's issues or if you're advocating for, 00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:16.839 as a young woman, making that part of your identity 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:20.089 when you're talking. When you're speaking out, 00:07:20.189 --> 00:07:25.810 there's a lot of hesitation and a lot of it, 00:07:25.870 --> 00:07:29.310 I imagine, is built from a society that we live 00:07:29.310 --> 00:07:32.149 in that is very antagonistic to women's voices 00:07:32.149 --> 00:07:34.850 in general and speaking out about things that 00:07:34.850 --> 00:07:39.589 conflict with a patriarchal society. As a young 00:07:39.589 --> 00:07:41.509 woman, that is my perspective right now very 00:07:41.509 --> 00:07:43.930 much. How can I still start to step into this 00:07:43.930 --> 00:07:45.850 persona of wanting to speak out about things 00:07:45.850 --> 00:07:48.029 that I care about, wanting to put my voice in 00:07:48.029 --> 00:07:50.250 conversations that are really important, but 00:07:50.250 --> 00:07:52.269 also knowing that I'm still a young woman and 00:07:52.269 --> 00:07:56.209 that does put me in some degree at a level of 00:07:56.209 --> 00:08:00.129 vulnerability because of the society that we 00:08:00.129 --> 00:08:02.370 live in. So just be curious your thoughts on 00:08:02.370 --> 00:08:04.949 that. Actually, that's a really great point because... 00:08:06.110 --> 00:08:08.269 One of the things, especially with growing up 00:08:08.269 --> 00:08:10.930 with parents who were very active in the civil 00:08:10.930 --> 00:08:13.029 rights movement and the women's rights movement 00:08:13.029 --> 00:08:15.170 and in the peace movement, lots of different 00:08:15.170 --> 00:08:19.269 movements. But my parents were also very focused 00:08:19.269 --> 00:08:24.209 on humans, right? And on treating people well, 00:08:24.329 --> 00:08:26.529 even when you opposed each other and opposed 00:08:26.529 --> 00:08:29.269 different ideas. And my father has been known 00:08:29.269 --> 00:08:31.350 to go up to people at protests and be like, no, 00:08:31.449 --> 00:08:34.750 you cannot do that. This is a soldier who is, 00:08:34.830 --> 00:08:37.580 you know. who is doing everything they can to 00:08:37.580 --> 00:08:40.240 keep us safe. You can't treat them disrespectfully, 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:42.740 you know, which is really, which is really cool 00:08:42.740 --> 00:08:44.580 because that's really the way, that's the way 00:08:44.580 --> 00:08:47.419 free speech should be, right? Like free speech 00:08:47.419 --> 00:08:50.279 should recognize that free speech has a responsibility. 00:08:51.129 --> 00:08:54.049 Right. And and so, you know, one of the things 00:08:54.049 --> 00:08:56.509 I think about. Right. Because you and I are obviously 00:08:56.509 --> 00:08:59.590 a couple of years apart in terms of our experiences. 00:08:59.809 --> 00:09:04.389 And I would say, too, that that because when 00:09:04.389 --> 00:09:07.049 I went to college, I actually started college 00:09:07.049 --> 00:09:10.330 when I was in high school. And so I I graduated 00:09:10.330 --> 00:09:13.730 much younger than people normally graduate from 00:09:13.730 --> 00:09:16.070 college. So then all of a sudden I was like out 00:09:16.070 --> 00:09:19.399 in the workforce and I was still. not that much 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:22.500 more than a teenager, you know? And so it was 00:09:22.500 --> 00:09:25.519 an interesting period of time where I was like 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:29.960 still young, but like in this more, you know, 00:09:29.980 --> 00:09:32.759 kind of grown up world. And one of the things 00:09:32.759 --> 00:09:36.159 that I think I deal with, and I'm sure you do 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:38.659 too, is that we have these moments where we have 00:09:38.659 --> 00:09:41.440 to make a decision about whether or not we're 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:44.539 going to modulate our voice in order to get something 00:09:44.539 --> 00:09:47.620 done. Because I've been in many, many situations, 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:51.480 both in life and in work, where if I say it the 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:54.879 same way a man would say it, I will not achieve 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:57.539 my goal. But if I say it the way I know will 00:09:57.539 --> 00:10:00.500 be effective, I'll achieve my goal. However, 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.340 to do so may kind of be taking a step back in 00:10:05.340 --> 00:10:10.519 terms of what should be. But we don't live in 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:12.799 the world of should be. We live in the world 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:16.690 we live in today. And so here's a perfect example. 00:10:16.909 --> 00:10:19.269 I have a daughter who's in high school, and she 00:10:19.269 --> 00:10:22.409 actually is really good at math, really good 00:10:22.409 --> 00:10:26.330 at STEM. She's taking the AP physics. She's taking 00:10:26.330 --> 00:10:29.889 all of these classes. And there are not as many 00:10:29.889 --> 00:10:33.370 girls in these classes as there are boys. And 00:10:33.370 --> 00:10:37.009 my daughter is in this position where she is 00:10:37.009 --> 00:10:39.950 constantly being asked, particularly by boys 00:10:39.950 --> 00:10:43.559 in the class, to help them. with their work because 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:46.600 they don't understand it so she's been spending 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:50.919 time helping others to teach them this material 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:54.919 right and then is not viewed as one of the star 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.399 students despite the fact that her her average 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:00.639 like you know grade point average is like supposed 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:02.980 to go up to a four right like it's like higher 00:11:02.980 --> 00:11:05.200 than that you know and i understand it's waiting 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:07.940 and all of that sort of stuff but like it's but 00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:11.159 she's sort of not getting credit for what is 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:14.840 in high school, kind of the unnoticed, unpaid 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:18.580 labor that very often in the workplace, you know, 00:11:18.620 --> 00:11:23.720 is something that women face doing. And, you 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:25.899 know, it's just sort of interesting, too, like 00:11:25.899 --> 00:11:28.919 how there are these different generations, but 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:32.600 there are some themes that run through. one of 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:35.080 the reasons that i was really excited not just 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:36.740 about being on this podcast because i will be 00:11:36.740 --> 00:11:39.059 on any podcast that andrew ever asked me to be 00:11:39.059 --> 00:11:41.580 on honestly um i'll be like oh you want me to 00:11:41.580 --> 00:11:43.740 talk about astrophysics let me get a learning 00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:46.559 and i'll get on it you know but um because i 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:49.460 know nothing about astrophysics but but The other 00:11:49.460 --> 00:11:52.419 thing, too, is that, you know, my mother was 00:11:52.419 --> 00:11:55.799 also a teacher. And my mother was actually, my 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:59.600 mother also was, she loved science. And her favorite 00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:01.879 New York Times Day of the week was the day that 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.100 the science section was a big section. It was 00:12:05.100 --> 00:12:08.080 a long time ago. But anyway, you know, she's 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:10.159 always been really good at math. She and I were 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:14.240 both mathletes in school. So today is actually 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:18.220 her birthday. And yeah, so she actually died 00:12:18.220 --> 00:12:21.600 in March after a 10 year battle with Alzheimer's. 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.100 So it was time. But it was it was sort of interesting 00:12:25.100 --> 00:12:27.440 to me that this was the day that we were going 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:30.240 to be talking about women's voices, because I 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:32.559 think one of the things that I learned from my 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:35.879 mother was how to use my voice for power, how 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.279 to use my voice. And and when I say use it, I 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:42.559 mean, use. my messaging, use not just my words, 00:12:42.580 --> 00:12:45.320 but how I said things to try and achieve goals. 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.879 And one of the goals that I've really had is 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:51.139 not just to seek to inform, which is kind of 00:12:51.139 --> 00:12:54.299 the bread and butter of what I do, but to, to 00:12:54.299 --> 00:12:57.639 help people to understand and connect, you know, 00:12:57.659 --> 00:13:00.720 and to, you know, to help people, especially 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:04.179 when two things are true at the same time, right? 00:13:04.259 --> 00:13:07.460 Like you have very different opinions or experiences 00:13:07.460 --> 00:13:11.809 or things like that. How can I use my voice in 00:13:11.809 --> 00:13:14.610 the service of understanding, not just in the 00:13:14.610 --> 00:13:18.570 service of education? Absolutely. I love everything 00:13:18.570 --> 00:13:20.490 you said. And I want to go back particularly 00:13:20.490 --> 00:13:23.210 to something you mentioned about your daughter 00:13:23.210 --> 00:13:25.669 not getting credit necessarily for the work that 00:13:25.669 --> 00:13:27.789 she's putting in. And I think something that 00:13:27.789 --> 00:13:30.929 I have definitely come to realize as I'm entering 00:13:30.929 --> 00:13:33.090 the workforce in different capacities is that 00:13:33.090 --> 00:13:36.169 you sometimes have to explicitly tell somebody, 00:13:36.389 --> 00:13:39.320 hey, I did this thing. just so that they notice. 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:42.080 And I wouldn't be able to, I haven't been able 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:43.879 to notice yet whether that is something that 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:45.740 is stratified by the gender that you are. But 00:13:45.740 --> 00:13:47.700 at the same time, I have noticed that I have 00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:50.480 had to do that sometimes in my workforce. Tell 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:53.220 my boss, hey, I wanted to let you know I did 00:13:53.220 --> 00:13:56.019 this thing because I want you to know that I 00:13:56.019 --> 00:13:59.059 did it because it reflects well on me as an employee 00:13:59.059 --> 00:14:01.039 and it reflects well on my journey through this 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:04.159 organization. And doing that is so awkward and 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.399 so hard and I don't want to do it. But at the 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:08.720 same time, I look at those. interactions. And 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:13.179 I'm very glad that I chose to advocate for myself 00:14:13.179 --> 00:14:16.159 in that way by being so explicit in describing 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:18.659 what I've done, because nobody else is going 00:14:18.659 --> 00:14:21.080 to do that for you. Nobody else is going to notice 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:24.980 those things that you've chosen to do. And it's 00:14:24.980 --> 00:14:28.919 really hard to find that balance between wanting 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.139 to inform others of the achievements that you 00:14:31.139 --> 00:14:34.360 want them to know about while also not coming 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:37.419 across as attention seeking or bragging or whatnot, 00:14:37.539 --> 00:14:40.159 which I know is a very common thing that women 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:42.779 have to decide for themselves in the workplace 00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:45.799 of learning how to advocate. This is something 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:47.840 that my nonprofit does a lot of work in. Our 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:51.019 internship program that we run explicitly attempts 00:14:51.019 --> 00:14:54.120 to teach young college women these skills of 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:56.720 self -advocacy, negotiation, public speaking, 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:00.419 because they're so often things that you just 00:15:00.419 --> 00:15:02.899 kind of have to pick up organically through interactions 00:15:02.899 --> 00:15:04.799 with people, through mentorship and whatnot. 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:09.120 But there's never an explicit like, hey, let 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.799 me sit you down and teach you how to advocate 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:15.100 for yourself. But it's so important and so important 00:15:15.100 --> 00:15:17.860 to make sure that your voice gets heard in the 00:15:17.860 --> 00:15:19.679 way that you want it to. So you have control 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:22.679 over the narrative and then also in the spaces 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:25.220 where you want it to be heard. And I don't know, 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:28.169 it's just been an interesting journey. For me, 00:15:28.169 --> 00:15:30.710 as somebody who also has always been very open 00:15:30.710 --> 00:15:33.230 to helping others, not necessarily for the glory, 00:15:33.330 --> 00:15:36.549 but just for that self -satisfaction of knowing 00:15:36.549 --> 00:15:38.409 that I did something good for somebody and seeing 00:15:38.409 --> 00:15:42.029 them grow, having to learn how to also tell people 00:15:42.029 --> 00:15:44.509 about it at the same time. So then I do get the 00:15:44.509 --> 00:15:48.049 credit that should be granted, maybe if that 00:15:48.049 --> 00:15:49.649 wasn't the reason why I did it in the first place, 00:15:49.730 --> 00:15:51.389 but it's still important for others to recognize 00:15:51.389 --> 00:15:55.700 the work that I contribute. I don't know. It's 00:15:55.700 --> 00:15:58.259 just it's an interesting dynamic as you kind 00:15:58.259 --> 00:16:02.340 of grow older and you get out of the college 00:16:02.340 --> 00:16:05.539 kid mindset into the I'm an employee now mindset 00:16:05.539 --> 00:16:09.419 of how do I protect this journey that I'm building 00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:12.320 for myself and not discredit the work I've done. 00:16:12.580 --> 00:16:17.100 I have thoughts if you want. So one of the one 00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:19.820 of the tactics that that I've used and others 00:16:19.820 --> 00:16:22.580 used over the years is to like, for example, 00:16:22.580 --> 00:16:26.200 at work. to send like an end of week roll up, 00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:28.259 right? Where you sort of have the bullet points 00:16:28.259 --> 00:16:30.299 of, you know, just want to keep you apprised 00:16:30.299 --> 00:16:32.179 of these things. You can design it based on, 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:34.419 you know, in your world right now in academia, 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:36.940 right? Like you, you know, you may have it something, 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.840 be something where you're sort of, you know, 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:42.080 giving an update on projects or something like 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:44.360 that. But like, you know, in the workforce and 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:47.509 for the folks that you're. that you're helping, 00:16:47.570 --> 00:16:50.730 that you're coaching and upskilling on how to 00:16:50.730 --> 00:16:54.169 sort of manage this in life, is once you have 00:16:54.169 --> 00:16:57.350 something documented, it's often more likely 00:16:57.350 --> 00:16:59.710 to be taken as truth. And it's something you 00:16:59.710 --> 00:17:02.889 can look back. And so what I would do is I would 00:17:02.889 --> 00:17:08.029 give the email a particular subject line and 00:17:08.029 --> 00:17:11.049 then have the dates, because then it's easy to 00:17:11.049 --> 00:17:13.789 search for them. So when you want to pull them 00:17:13.789 --> 00:17:16.150 all together and do like, say, a quarterly report 00:17:16.150 --> 00:17:21.490 or a year -end look back, you then have all of 00:17:21.490 --> 00:17:24.990 these things. You can also precede them in terms 00:17:24.990 --> 00:17:26.849 of as you're doing the work during the week, 00:17:26.970 --> 00:17:29.009 you just jot it in there. And then you can also 00:17:29.009 --> 00:17:31.849 schedule them to get sent. In most email clients, 00:17:32.130 --> 00:17:33.950 you can schedule them to get sent at a certain 00:17:33.950 --> 00:17:36.910 time and a certain day. That having that already 00:17:36.910 --> 00:17:39.670 pre -scheduled to go out will likely make sure 00:17:39.670 --> 00:17:42.529 that you fill it out before it goes out. Right. 00:17:42.690 --> 00:17:45.470 So that's a way to keep ourselves honest. But 00:17:45.470 --> 00:17:48.170 I think it's really helpful because, you know, 00:17:48.170 --> 00:17:50.230 the other thing, too, is to really think about 00:17:50.230 --> 00:17:52.670 with any messaging that we have about the work 00:17:52.670 --> 00:17:55.069 that we're doing is we really want to talk about 00:17:55.069 --> 00:17:57.750 it, not just in the realm of the task, but in 00:17:57.750 --> 00:18:01.349 the realm of the outcome. So yeah, like in the 00:18:01.349 --> 00:18:03.329 case of my daughter, she's doing this tutoring 00:18:03.329 --> 00:18:07.269 in class for free. And so what is the outcome? 00:18:07.490 --> 00:18:10.470 The outcome is she is helping X number of students 00:18:10.470 --> 00:18:13.589 per week to increase their understanding of physics 00:18:13.589 --> 00:18:17.670 or whatever the topic is. So I think one of the 00:18:17.670 --> 00:18:21.289 things that women are very often... I'm going 00:18:21.289 --> 00:18:24.049 to say it's a combination of put in the position 00:18:24.049 --> 00:18:28.539 to do and it's also... we feel a responsibility 00:18:28.539 --> 00:18:32.119 to do. It's hard to say which chicken and which 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:36.140 egg came first there, right? But very often we 00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:39.960 are in this position of feeling like we should, 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:41.740 you know, make the world a better place, which 00:18:41.740 --> 00:18:45.640 of course everybody should, but we... often do 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:48.640 that in a way that's sort of self -sacrificing. 00:18:48.859 --> 00:18:52.539 And that I think is, it's something we need to 00:18:52.539 --> 00:18:55.519 sort of kind of pick apart, right? Like in our 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:58.019 lives and in our careers. Like, why am I doing 00:18:58.019 --> 00:19:00.859 this? What is the benefit to me? What is the 00:19:00.859 --> 00:19:02.920 benefit to others? And then like, if there's 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:04.779 only a benefit to others, that doesn't mean you 00:19:04.779 --> 00:19:06.839 shouldn't do it, but it does mean that maybe. 00:19:07.529 --> 00:19:09.829 Take some time to think about how do I now turn 00:19:09.829 --> 00:19:11.930 this into something that's mutually beneficial 00:19:11.930 --> 00:19:14.730 so that it's not just taking away from like, 00:19:14.789 --> 00:19:17.549 you know, my education, for example, right? Or 00:19:17.549 --> 00:19:19.829 it's not just taking time away from the work 00:19:19.829 --> 00:19:22.009 that I need to do, the work that I'm going to 00:19:22.009 --> 00:19:24.430 be judged on. So how do I get this work that 00:19:24.430 --> 00:19:27.250 I'm sort of doing on the side for free? How do 00:19:27.250 --> 00:19:30.490 I get that to be part of, you know, how I'm being 00:19:30.490 --> 00:19:32.869 evaluated and how I'm going to ultimately be 00:19:32.869 --> 00:19:36.569 compensated? So that's that's one thing. And 00:19:36.569 --> 00:19:39.329 then the other thing that we should totally talk 00:19:39.329 --> 00:19:43.309 about is the power of allies and about how do 00:19:43.309 --> 00:19:45.490 we sort of like, you know, if you want to grow 00:19:45.490 --> 00:19:47.809 vegetables, which I grew up in New York City. 00:19:48.550 --> 00:19:50.950 terrible gardener so i everything i try and grow 00:19:50.950 --> 00:19:52.990 dies so don't listen to me about gardening advice 00:19:52.990 --> 00:19:56.230 but my understanding is that you need seeds and 00:19:56.230 --> 00:19:58.150 you need sunshine you need water and you need 00:19:58.150 --> 00:20:00.089 all of these things and pick the weeds and make 00:20:00.089 --> 00:20:01.410 sure there are no bugs that are going to eat 00:20:01.410 --> 00:20:03.490 them all and all of that and i think that we 00:20:03.490 --> 00:20:06.450 kind of have to do that about protecting our 00:20:06.450 --> 00:20:10.269 voices and I happen to have been I started out 00:20:10.269 --> 00:20:12.950 as a teacher and I taught like everything from 00:20:12.950 --> 00:20:15.470 kindergarten to college and then I taught rock 00:20:15.470 --> 00:20:17.529 climbing because I'm afraid of heights and I 00:20:17.529 --> 00:20:19.369 still am afraid of heights but I taught a chief 00:20:19.369 --> 00:20:22.289 learning officer how to rock climb and he said 00:20:22.289 --> 00:20:24.269 hey do you want a job and that was sort of how 00:20:24.269 --> 00:20:27.160 I wound up in corporate learning. And that was 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:30.180 many, many years ago. And so now I've been in 00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:32.079 this space, and it's sort of gone just from like 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:35.599 learning and development, but into much more 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:37.740 of, you know, organizational development and 00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:40.440 design and, and, you know, sort of branching 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:43.200 out to I've done a lot of DEI work as well, because 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.819 I'm a human being who likes other human beings 00:20:45.819 --> 00:20:48.019 and wants everybody to have a place at the table, 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:51.180 you know, I think that, you know, one of the 00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:53.740 things when I think about all of this is sort 00:20:53.740 --> 00:20:56.839 of like, What can I do to build not just, you 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.119 know, not just a way in through the door, but 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.500 how do I make that door open wider? And how do 00:21:03.500 --> 00:21:06.480 I how do I help, you know, sort of keep up with 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.440 these things? And and for that, you know, building 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:13.940 a network of allies and activating allies is 00:21:13.940 --> 00:21:17.299 so important because, well, I've I've been talking 00:21:17.299 --> 00:21:19.500 for way too long. So you talk now and then I'll 00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:21.319 tell you the story about an ally in the workplace. 00:21:22.220 --> 00:21:25.799 I got so excited when you mentioned the documentation 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:29.059 aspect because it immediately made me think about 00:21:29.059 --> 00:21:32.019 another aspect of women's voices, which is the 00:21:32.019 --> 00:21:35.740 fact that we are not believed. And the whole 00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:38.400 argument around believe women, believe women 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.279 versus that's still not happening. Even when 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:44.619 you have so many women coming out to talk about 00:21:44.619 --> 00:21:47.880 things and being very explicit in describing 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.599 what has happened to them and still not being 00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:53.440 believed. So there's that other element of like, 00:21:53.500 --> 00:21:57.099 yes, you can take the initiative to speak out 00:21:57.099 --> 00:21:59.599 and tell people what you've done, what you've 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:02.460 experienced, etc. But then there's that element 00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:05.059 of that, will people then be receptive to your 00:22:05.059 --> 00:22:06.940 voice and actually listen to you and actually 00:22:06.940 --> 00:22:11.339 react in the way that they should and take action 00:22:11.339 --> 00:22:13.960 based on what they've told you? So it's a two 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:16.579 -way street in some ways where we need a culture. 00:22:17.259 --> 00:22:19.920 both that encourages and amplifies women's voices, 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.819 but at the same time also is ready to receive 00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:24.839 them and act on them in a way that they should 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:27.799 be. So it's almost like, which one do you start 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:31.299 with, right? I obviously, my work is very much 00:22:31.299 --> 00:22:33.519 centered on the first part of how can we empower 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:36.380 young women to use their voices, get in conversations 00:22:36.380 --> 00:22:40.720 where they deserve to be and share their ideas, 00:22:40.779 --> 00:22:44.500 share the concrete strategies that they have 00:22:44.500 --> 00:22:46.819 for how to make things better and how to... progress 00:22:46.819 --> 00:22:50.660 societal change because they deserve to be there 00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:52.579 and because they have those ideas that do matter. 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:54.960 So that's what we focus on, right? But then there 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.180 is that added element of, well, once they get 00:22:57.180 --> 00:23:00.779 into these spaces, luckily we have found spaces 00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:03.619 for young women to be in where they are actually 00:23:03.619 --> 00:23:06.579 valued and heard and whatnot. But that's not 00:23:06.579 --> 00:23:08.599 going to be true everywhere, especially when 00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:10.319 it comes to very sensitive issues that might 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.640 pit people against each other and pit interest 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.829 against each other. So how do you... address 00:23:15.829 --> 00:23:19.430 that double -sided issue of women's voices needing 00:23:19.430 --> 00:23:22.069 to be in more spaces but then also making sure 00:23:22.069 --> 00:23:24.430 those spaces are receptive to women's voices 00:23:24.430 --> 00:23:27.630 and not discrediting the voices just because 00:23:27.630 --> 00:23:30.829 they're coming from women um so if you have any 00:23:30.829 --> 00:23:33.450 thoughts on that I do. I just got so excited 00:23:33.450 --> 00:23:35.329 when you mentioned documentation. Oh, my gosh. 00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:39.769 Through my head for the past month. So I have 00:23:39.769 --> 00:23:43.069 a story about this. So one of my daughters, who 00:23:43.069 --> 00:23:46.109 is, you know, I will call a tweenager, you know, 00:23:46.109 --> 00:23:48.750 not quite a teenager, but but not quite a little 00:23:48.750 --> 00:23:51.990 kid anymore. And she was dealing with an issue, 00:23:52.049 --> 00:23:55.349 which if you looked at the fact pattern, it was 00:23:55.349 --> 00:24:00.579 harassment. Right. But. because it was a middle 00:24:00.579 --> 00:24:05.000 school -aged issue, what she was being told was, 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:11.440 oh, well, it's because he likes you. And I wrote 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:16.779 a very pointed letter, which then it got addressed. 00:24:17.059 --> 00:24:19.400 But one of the things I said in that letter was, 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:23.480 I know in the past we used to explain the reason 00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:28.339 why a behavior was happening. as part of addressing 00:24:28.339 --> 00:24:31.880 it. But I'm pretty sure that in this, you know, 00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:35.740 date here, that is no longer an acceptable way 00:24:35.740 --> 00:24:39.940 to deal with the fact that someone is doing things 00:24:39.940 --> 00:24:43.140 that are against the student code. And, you know, 00:24:43.140 --> 00:24:46.259 and I don't think that even if my daughter understands 00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:49.200 why this is happening, that should change how 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.759 it's impacting her education. So I'd like to 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:54.019 know exactly what we're going to be doing to 00:24:54.019 --> 00:24:57.640 stop the behavior that is not allowed by the 00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:01.009 school behavioral code. And so I think part of 00:25:01.009 --> 00:25:03.329 it is, you know, and in that case, I needed to 00:25:03.329 --> 00:25:06.589 take that sort of like kind of, you know, approach. 00:25:06.789 --> 00:25:09.509 But there are other times where similar, not 00:25:09.509 --> 00:25:12.369 necessarily similar facts, but like other times 00:25:12.369 --> 00:25:15.349 when, you know, someone who's sort of being victimized 00:25:15.349 --> 00:25:18.740 by things that are inappropriate. Even if it's 00:25:18.740 --> 00:25:20.660 not sexual harassment, even if it's, you know, 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:22.599 power struggles, whatever, whatever, you know, 00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:25.200 lack of resources, whatever the situation is, 00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:27.660 even like in the workplace. I think it's really 00:25:27.660 --> 00:25:31.440 important for us to make sure that our methodology 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:35.700 for addressing problems does not stop at understanding 00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:38.440 the problem. Right. And that we actually have 00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:41.339 to get to what is the solution to the problem 00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:44.500 because we understand why this is a problem and 00:25:44.500 --> 00:25:48.380 we understand what's happening. Now let's understand 00:25:48.380 --> 00:25:51.359 what solution we're going to employ to make that 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:55.220 stop happening. And I think that works well with 00:25:55.220 --> 00:25:58.799 teenagers as well as adults. If we make that 00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:03.079 part of our formal expectations of what's going 00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:04.960 to happen and that, and that, I think really 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:07.819 like that's like in the formal sense, but then 00:26:07.819 --> 00:26:10.880 I think there's the informal. sense that this 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:13.720 is where, you know, people's unconscious bias 00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:16.500 around women's voices or women's stories or, 00:26:16.500 --> 00:26:20.420 you know, other behaviors. I think that's where 00:26:20.420 --> 00:26:23.440 that one's a little more tricky because it's 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:26.220 not as cut and dry as like, you know, here's 00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:28.599 the violation, here's the policy, here's how 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:32.240 it's, you know, going to be addressed. And that's 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:35.539 where I think. Oftentimes, and again, I'm going 00:26:35.539 --> 00:26:37.539 to back off of things that are egregious, that 00:26:37.539 --> 00:26:40.660 are crimes and stuff like that, and get much 00:26:40.660 --> 00:26:45.220 more into the subtle ways that women and their 00:26:45.220 --> 00:26:48.859 voices are often excluded from halls of power. 00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:52.279 One of the things I've experienced a lot over 00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:55.000 the course of my career is I will say an idea, 00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:59.019 and then five seconds later, someone who has 00:26:59.019 --> 00:27:02.019 more power will say my exact same idea, and everybody 00:27:02.019 --> 00:27:05.589 will go, great idea. Whereas it was like crickets 00:27:05.589 --> 00:27:09.309 when I said it, you know? And one of the things 00:27:09.309 --> 00:27:13.970 that I've done is I have people that I'm an ally 00:27:13.970 --> 00:27:16.930 to, and I have people that are allies for me. 00:27:17.089 --> 00:27:20.869 And I've had situations where I've literally 00:27:20.869 --> 00:27:24.930 been told to stop talking in meetings. And then 00:27:24.930 --> 00:27:27.369 I had a very senior gentleman in the meeting 00:27:27.369 --> 00:27:30.329 go. I want to hear what Allison has to say, because 00:27:30.329 --> 00:27:32.450 she always has the really good ideas. And it 00:27:32.450 --> 00:27:35.509 was really cool to like have somebody have my 00:27:35.509 --> 00:27:38.369 back like that. And I've had meetings where I 00:27:38.369 --> 00:27:41.549 have strategized ahead of time with people where 00:27:41.549 --> 00:27:44.410 there was an ongoing issue of only certain people 00:27:44.410 --> 00:27:46.410 being listened to or talked to or called on or 00:27:46.410 --> 00:27:49.470 whatever. And really to sort of tag team it because 00:27:49.470 --> 00:27:52.430 if you're tag teaming it, right, and you know, 00:27:52.529 --> 00:27:55.920 and maybe the person that you're tag teaming 00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.240 with is like the golden child that day, right? 00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:00.599 And like, they always get called on. But if they 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.000 get called on, and then they call on somebody 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:05.799 else before they see their time, right? And they're 00:28:05.799 --> 00:28:07.700 like, Oh, you know what, Ainsley, I'd love to 00:28:07.700 --> 00:28:10.660 hear what you think about this, then, you know, 00:28:10.660 --> 00:28:12.720 then Ainsley doesn't get shut down in the meeting, 00:28:12.740 --> 00:28:14.740 because Ainsley has already been given the floor. 00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:18.420 And so sometimes sort of having that That sort 00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:20.940 of, you know, verbal dance essentially kind of 00:28:20.940 --> 00:28:23.119 worked out ahead of time. The other thing, too, 00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:26.480 is to pay attention. Right. Like who is getting 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.599 more airtime? Try and figure out why and try 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:32.960 and figure out, like, is it a problem or is it 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:34.779 not a problem? I mean, maybe that person really 00:28:34.779 --> 00:28:37.680 is the expert in the room and maybe it has nothing 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.660 to do with anything else. But we do know that 00:28:41.660 --> 00:28:45.920 when more voices are involved. we tend to come 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.099 up with better solutions than when we just talk 00:28:48.099 --> 00:28:50.920 into an echo chamber. And so I think it's really 00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:53.759 important that we be really strategic about making 00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.079 sure that we're getting that full feedback. Absolutely. 00:28:57.259 --> 00:28:58.960 One of the things that I'm noticing throughout 00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:01.000 this conversation is that we're focusing a lot 00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:05.619 on having to very explicitly call out behaviors 00:29:05.619 --> 00:29:09.200 that are attempting to suppress women's voices 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:12.160 or just antithetical to the idea of having equal 00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:15.140 representation of all voices. And I find that 00:29:15.140 --> 00:29:18.259 so interesting because it sort of is reflective 00:29:18.259 --> 00:29:22.559 of how a lot of the suppression of voices can 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:26.940 be very implicit, very, very, very not invisible 00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:32.650 so much as just not obvious. And so the remedy 00:29:32.650 --> 00:29:35.130 to that, obviously, is trying to be as explicit 00:29:35.130 --> 00:29:37.410 as possible and calling out those behaviors, 00:29:37.529 --> 00:29:40.289 calling out those situations where voices are 00:29:40.289 --> 00:29:43.990 not being taken seriously. Which is frustrating 00:29:43.990 --> 00:29:47.029 then for, like, say, for instance, I'm in a room 00:29:47.029 --> 00:29:50.490 and this is a true example, I guess. I've been 00:29:50.490 --> 00:29:51.990 in rooms where I've been very much the youngest 00:29:51.990 --> 00:29:55.470 person there, the only young woman there. And 00:29:55.470 --> 00:29:57.799 there are people I don't know. But I have a question 00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:00.839 for somebody in that room and I want to ask it 00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:02.839 or somebody in the room. This actually did happen 00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:04.380 to me. Somebody in the room was talking about 00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:07.160 things that they potentially could do to help 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:09.160 support college women. And it was so funny to 00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:11.160 be sitting there being like, hi, you know, I'm 00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:12.940 a college woman. I should probably like speak 00:30:12.940 --> 00:30:15.200 up about this. And so this was this internal 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.880 battle in me of like, should I? kind of speak 00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:20.160 out and say like hey i kind of want to contradict 00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:22.019 everything you're saying because you think that 00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:23.259 you know what it's like to be a college woman 00:30:23.259 --> 00:30:25.480 but i am standing here with the experiences of 00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:27.700 being a college -age woman right now and i know 00:30:27.700 --> 00:30:29.660 that everything you're saying doesn't really 00:30:29.660 --> 00:30:32.559 actually align with like what would be most helpful 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:35.319 for us um so this was this internal battle of 00:30:35.319 --> 00:30:37.619 me of being like should i say something should 00:30:37.619 --> 00:30:39.660 i just kind of sit and wait because i'm not really 00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:42.680 comfortable yet in this space but i did end up 00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:44.779 raising my hand i did end up saying like as a 00:30:44.779 --> 00:30:46.180 college woman actually you know i would love 00:30:46.180 --> 00:30:50.599 to tell you this and i found i don't know it 00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:53.200 was just it put me in that position now of having 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:55.740 to kind of be not only on the attack of saying 00:30:55.740 --> 00:30:58.000 hey let me just like let you know the thing that 00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.880 you're saying is not completely true um and then 00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:04.000 also on the defense of like now putting myself 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:06.279 out in this space as somebody who potentially 00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:08.660 could be a troublemaker or whatnot of trying 00:31:08.660 --> 00:31:12.460 to contradict what the expert opinion in the 00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:14.839 room is putting out there which is unfair to 00:31:14.839 --> 00:31:17.299 me then because that's putting so much of a burden 00:31:17.299 --> 00:31:21.279 on me to have to carry all of that when in reality 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:22.920 what I'm really just doing is trying to make 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:27.039 sure that the narrative is correct so it's bothersome 00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:30.839 that a lot of the weight is put on the people 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:34.700 who are also trying to navigate the fact that 00:31:34.700 --> 00:31:37.720 they are being silenced and being um ignored 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:42.359 and and all of that and i still to this day even 00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:47.000 find myself somewhat hesitant in certain places 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.119 in certain rooms um because you have that element 00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:52.720 of all the different identities that you have 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:56.269 right is that um Those impact the way that you 00:31:56.269 --> 00:31:57.990 present yourself in a space and the way that 00:31:57.990 --> 00:31:59.849 you choose to interact with the different people 00:31:59.849 --> 00:32:02.490 in that space. And so for me, my identities of 00:32:02.490 --> 00:32:05.490 being a young person and then also a woman really 00:32:05.490 --> 00:32:08.109 kind of compound sometimes in spaces where I 00:32:08.109 --> 00:32:10.930 know I really want to speak up about what's being 00:32:10.930 --> 00:32:14.529 said. I know I want to try to set the record 00:32:14.529 --> 00:32:16.589 straight, but I also recognize that people are 00:32:16.589 --> 00:32:19.410 really going to look at me as very much an outsider, 00:32:19.490 --> 00:32:21.829 both because I'm a young person and also because 00:32:21.829 --> 00:32:27.500 I'm a woman. It's a difficult place to be. And 00:32:27.500 --> 00:32:30.259 I think this is really why, like you said, having 00:32:30.259 --> 00:32:33.380 allies is so important because one of my favorite 00:32:33.380 --> 00:32:35.720 people in the whole world, he's a fantastic mentor 00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:37.559 to me and he's such a feminist and I love him 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:40.700 for it because he sometimes doesn't even intentionally, 00:32:40.859 --> 00:32:42.440 but when we're in conversation, he'll just say 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.539 something that's like, I'm like, I wish there 00:32:44.539 --> 00:32:46.680 were more people like you generally in the world 00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:49.730 who recognize that the challenges that. In this 00:32:49.730 --> 00:32:51.210 case, again, we're specifically talking about 00:32:51.210 --> 00:32:53.589 women, the challenges that women face in being 00:32:53.589 --> 00:32:56.170 taken seriously, etc. And I'm so grateful for 00:32:56.170 --> 00:33:00.269 the people like him who are not by any means 00:33:00.269 --> 00:33:03.509 a woman, could not possibly understand on a personal 00:33:03.509 --> 00:33:05.970 level what it's like, but at the same time are 00:33:05.970 --> 00:33:09.109 stable enough in their own identity to recognize 00:33:09.109 --> 00:33:11.509 that people of an identity different than theirs 00:33:11.509 --> 00:33:14.549 need their support and need their vocal support. 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.039 I am just so grateful for the people that have 00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:20.640 been allies for me. And I hope to be the same 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:23.339 kind of ally to others, right? I'm entering my 00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:25.119 junior year now, so I'm in my junior year. So 00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:27.839 definitely kind of in that middle ground of being 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:29.960 a mentor to some people while also a mentee. 00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:32.799 And it's such an interesting place to be getting 00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:35.240 to kind of reflect on what has helped me become 00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:39.440 so confident in my voice while also still learning 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:41.539 from the people who have made me that confident 00:33:41.539 --> 00:33:44.819 person. You know, I think you raise a couple 00:33:44.819 --> 00:33:48.339 of many, many excellent points. And so one of 00:33:48.339 --> 00:33:51.500 them I want to just sort of go back to is that, 00:33:51.500 --> 00:33:55.019 you know, the visibility pieces is very key, 00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:57.339 you know, because we often don't, we look at 00:33:57.339 --> 00:33:59.319 people and we think we know them, right? Or we 00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:01.259 hear them speak. We think we know them. We think 00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:03.380 we know what makes them up. We think we know 00:34:03.380 --> 00:34:06.759 their experience, but we're generally wrong about 00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:11.139 that. And so I think it's. I always, when I speak 00:34:11.139 --> 00:34:13.480 up for certain things, I'm always speaking up 00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:16.500 for the person in the room who can't, you know, 00:34:16.579 --> 00:34:18.920 because they're, you know, they are in hiding 00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:21.900 in plain sight. And so that's something I try 00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:24.920 and think about within my sphere of power. But 00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:28.639 the other thing, too, is we have to really think 00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:31.619 about the difference between speaking up just, 00:34:31.820 --> 00:34:34.000 you know, sort of speaking truth to power. That 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.019 definitely has its place, right? But I think 00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:39.340 we also need to think about what is the outcome 00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:42.559 we're trying to achieve, right? Do we want to 00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:45.079 change this one person's language in this meeting, 00:34:45.940 --> 00:34:48.360 like at the risk that they feel ashamed and then 00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:50.639 never talk about it again when they actually 00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:54.199 have the power to make some change? Or do we 00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:58.000 want the change, right? And so very often when 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:01.500 I'm in that situation, what... I try and do is 00:35:01.500 --> 00:35:04.199 figure out how I can sort of rather than speak 00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:07.480 up to them, right? I try and see how I can partner 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:12.159 with them and springboard what I am trying to 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:16.239 share using what they're saying, even if I may 00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:18.239 think that what they're saying is totally bonkers 00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:22.619 and absolutely wrong. How can I then scoop them 00:35:22.619 --> 00:35:25.280 up and bring them along with me on this journey 00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:27.840 towards the better future that we want? Because, 00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:31.659 you know, what is that? You catch more flies 00:35:31.659 --> 00:35:33.960 with honey than you do with vinegar, kind of 00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:38.039 saying that my grandmother had. And so, you know, 00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:41.579 I think that that's a really important thing. 00:35:41.739 --> 00:35:44.360 It's so often when we have these differences, 00:35:44.380 --> 00:35:47.420 it's so important, I think, to think about somebody 00:35:47.420 --> 00:35:50.079 who maybe they just don't know better. Right. 00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:52.780 And like, you know, like Maya Angelou said, like 00:35:52.780 --> 00:35:55.059 when you know better, you do better. And I think 00:35:55.059 --> 00:35:58.909 so often if we can gently bring them. along and 00:35:58.909 --> 00:36:01.550 bring them up to speed so they know better it's 00:36:01.550 --> 00:36:03.849 much more effective in the long run than making 00:36:03.849 --> 00:36:08.849 everything a fight and and i remember um when 00:36:08.849 --> 00:36:11.550 i was in college we had these take back the night 00:36:11.550 --> 00:36:14.110 marches to you know to really try and address 00:36:14.110 --> 00:36:17.429 the problems of you know uh women being sexually 00:36:17.429 --> 00:36:19.789 assaulted and raped and things like that but 00:36:19.789 --> 00:36:22.050 the thing that bothered me is that they didn't 00:36:22.050 --> 00:36:25.550 allow men to be on the march and i was like women 00:36:25.550 --> 00:36:29.219 don't get safer if it I'm older than you. It 00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:31.039 was a long time ago. But like, you know, maybe 00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:32.880 now it's everybody. I don't know. But I would 00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:34.940 actually help plan the march, but I could never 00:36:34.940 --> 00:36:38.440 get the folks who did these marches to change 00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:41.480 and like make it all inclusive. And so I would 00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:44.800 never go on the march because I had failed in 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:58.940 trying to open it up. being confident and speaking 00:36:58.940 --> 00:37:01.780 out is just being very grounded in my values 00:37:01.780 --> 00:37:05.420 and the person that I want to be in the space 00:37:05.420 --> 00:37:08.320 and the impression that I want to give and the 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.480 messages that I want people to sort of associate 00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:15.079 with me. And that's a really hard thing to come 00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:18.519 up with. It takes a lot of like self -reflection 00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:23.079 and self -awareness to ground yourself in who 00:37:23.079 --> 00:37:25.599 you are. But I've found it to be such a powerful 00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:30.880 way. vulnerability. Like, absolutely. It's, it's 00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:33.639 almost like fear of literacy, right? Like, it's 00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:36.539 not, it's not like, you know, not being afraid, 00:37:36.659 --> 00:37:38.880 it's being afraid and maybe doing it anyway. 00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:42.179 It's like becoming being able to sit with the 00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:44.460 things that we're still afraid of at the same 00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:47.019 time that we're moving forward to, to a place 00:37:47.019 --> 00:37:48.920 where, you know, like, like I mentioned before, 00:37:48.980 --> 00:37:50.860 I started rock climbing because I'm afraid of 00:37:50.860 --> 00:37:54.159 heights. I am still afraid of heights. I still 00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:57.599 rock climb. But like, you know, I didn't conquer 00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:01.599 the fear. I grew to, you know, hold hands with 00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:04.440 it and live with it in a way that I could still 00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:06.559 keep climbing up metaphorically and realistically. 00:38:07.739 --> 00:38:11.360 Yeah, I say all this to say when I think about 00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:14.960 using our voices at some, you know, the choice 00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:19.139 to use your voice. is a personal choice and so 00:38:19.139 --> 00:38:22.280 to some degree it does connect back to why you're 00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:26.119 using your voice and how you hope to be received 00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:31.119 so i i wish i'd known sooner how to and i actually 00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:35.059 you know my journey in becoming more confident 00:38:35.059 --> 00:38:36.760 and speaking out about things i believe really 00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:39.500 has come from putting myself in places where 00:38:39.500 --> 00:38:42.760 i knew i wasn't comfortable having those conversations 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:46.630 yet but i wanted to become more comfortable So 00:38:46.630 --> 00:38:49.929 I interned with a reproductive health organization 00:38:49.929 --> 00:38:54.409 nonprofit last summer, and it made me so much 00:38:54.409 --> 00:38:57.610 more confident in having conversations about 00:38:57.610 --> 00:38:59.969 things related to reproductive health and reproductive 00:38:59.969 --> 00:39:03.110 justice because I was actively being exposed 00:39:03.110 --> 00:39:05.949 to very factual evidence -based conversations 00:39:05.949 --> 00:39:08.190 by the people in these organizations and their 00:39:08.190 --> 00:39:12.750 partners. And having that deep -rooted knowledge 00:39:12.750 --> 00:39:16.659 of... The facts and the evidence in these situations 00:39:16.659 --> 00:39:20.179 has made me so much more comfortable in speaking 00:39:20.179 --> 00:39:22.440 about them because I know what's true. I know 00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:26.559 what I what I value and I know what is is is 00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:30.780 what what cannot be contradicted. So I would 00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:33.420 say to if I could talk to my younger self, I 00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:35.119 could talk to other young people like myself. 00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:37.880 I would say learning what your values are, learning 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.619 how learning the truth behind the things you 00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:43.590 want to speak about. is so grounding and so important 00:39:43.590 --> 00:39:45.389 for helping you build that confidence and that 00:39:45.389 --> 00:39:48.110 competence when you do decide to make your voice 00:39:48.110 --> 00:39:50.929 heard. It sort of goes along with that idea of 00:39:50.929 --> 00:39:54.190 walk softly and carry a big stick, right? And 00:39:54.190 --> 00:39:56.630 it's so often we think we just have to get louder 00:39:56.630 --> 00:40:00.150 to be heard. And I found both with children and 00:40:00.150 --> 00:40:02.630 with adults, sometimes what we really need to 00:40:02.630 --> 00:40:06.449 do is to just talk a little quieter. And people 00:40:06.449 --> 00:40:10.590 then sometimes lean in and, you know, and I In 00:40:10.590 --> 00:40:12.329 the case of small children, then you can grab 00:40:12.329 --> 00:40:14.150 them and get them in the car seat. But in the 00:40:14.150 --> 00:40:18.389 case of executives, it's very often the case 00:40:18.389 --> 00:40:22.590 that when we get them listening in a calm, quiet 00:40:22.590 --> 00:40:27.420 conversation. we're often able to make a lot 00:40:27.420 --> 00:40:30.300 more headway towards understanding than when 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:33.400 our conversations are big and loud and all of 00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:36.980 those walls and defenses are up and the brain 00:40:36.980 --> 00:40:39.280 is busy thinking about the comeback instead of 00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:41.239 listening to the words that you're saying. And 00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:45.079 it makes a huge, huge difference for us. And 00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:48.500 yeah, the burden is often on us to like... take 00:40:48.500 --> 00:40:50.639 some time at the beginning of the conversation, 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:52.679 to take some time at the beginning of the presentation 00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:57.320 to figure out like, okay, and recognizing that 00:40:57.320 --> 00:40:59.400 I'm looking out at my audience and I'm making 00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:01.639 assumptions based on how they look, just like 00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:03.059 they're looking at me and making assumptions 00:41:03.059 --> 00:41:06.139 based on how I look, right? Like, what is the 00:41:06.139 --> 00:41:10.360 tactic here? What does the room feel like? But 00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:13.460 what is my main goal? What do I need them to 00:41:13.460 --> 00:41:16.559 walk away knowing, to walk away thinking, to 00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:19.260 walk away believing, to walk away doing? And 00:41:19.260 --> 00:41:22.599 how long do I need them to do that for? Do I 00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:24.739 need them to do that for the election tomorrow? 00:41:24.980 --> 00:41:27.519 Or do I need them to do that for the world their 00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.719 great -grandchildren will live in? And all of 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.400 that really makes a difference in how I approach 00:41:33.400 --> 00:41:37.119 it. I find it's much more of an art than a science. 00:41:37.500 --> 00:41:40.579 But like science, we often have to have a lot 00:41:40.579 --> 00:41:42.920 of failed experiments in order to get to that 00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:46.719 one beautiful, you know, cure. So I guess we 00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:49.739 just have to keep trying. Well, it was so great 00:41:49.739 --> 00:41:51.480 to talk to you. This was so wonderful. Thank 00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:53.940 you so much for your time. Oh, thank you so much. 00:41:53.980 --> 00:41:57.280 It was great to hear your voice and learn about, 00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:00.639 you know, what you're doing. And I'm going to 00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:02.260 follow your journey because I'm sure we're going 00:42:02.260 --> 00:42:04.780 to see amazing things that you continue to work 00:42:04.780 --> 00:42:07.980 on as you go through school and beyond. We love 00:42:07.980 --> 00:42:10.599 this episode. Both of our guests shared some 00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:12.980 great advice on getting their voices heard and 00:42:12.980 --> 00:42:16.070 also the difficulties they've encountered. A 00:42:16.070 --> 00:42:18.150 massive thank you to Ainsley and Alison for their 00:42:18.150 --> 00:42:20.590 insight into this topic and for their time in 00:42:20.590 --> 00:42:23.510 making this a brilliant recording. We know you'll 00:42:23.510 --> 00:42:25.250 want to connect with them afterwards and their 00:42:25.250 --> 00:42:27.409 details are in the show notes, along with information 00:42:27.409 --> 00:42:29.789 about how to connect with us here at Women Talking 00:42:29.789 --> 00:42:32.969 About Learning. Remember to like and subscribe 00:42:32.969 --> 00:42:35.829 to the podcast on your podcast player. It does 00:42:35.829 --> 00:42:38.110 make a real difference in helping people find 00:42:38.110 --> 00:42:41.150 and recommend us. We'll be back in a couple of 00:42:41.150 --> 00:42:44.420 weeks and next time it's a returning topic. the 00:42:44.420 --> 00:42:48.340 more content one. As always, thanks for listening 00:42:48.340 --> 00:42:50.019 and we'll see you again soon.