Before we get started, a quick note. We're running
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February 26th at Mary Sumner House in Westminster,
central London. It's a one -day event for anyone
exploring how audio can change learning at work
through stories, conversations and voice. You'll
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share knowledge and shift culture. Expect ideas
you can take straight back to your organisation.
To find out more and grab your early bird ticket,
go to podcastlearningfest .live. Alright, let's
get into the episode. Hello everyone and welcome
to this episode of the Female Voice One of the
Women Talking About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew
Jacobs. It still frustrates me even now that
women are struggling to have their voice heard.
That's why we love the fact that we can contribute
in some small way for women to do this on the
podcast. With this in mind, we decided to do
an episode on the subject with two amazing women,
both returning to the podcast. Our first guest
is Ainsley Sesniak. She's the founder and CEO
of Speak Out Sisterhood, a non -profit empowering
young professional women in STEM to be agents
of social change. As a third -year Honors Carolina
scholar at the University of North Carolina at
Chapel Hill, she's studying biology, chemistry
and entrepreneurship on the pre -medical track.
Ainsley is incredibly passionate about the power
of education, collaboration and social entrepreneurship
to drive sustainable progress. Our second guest
is Alison Shea. Alison is a fourth -generation
educator who couldn't fight her destiny, and
she heads up global learning and development
for a tech startup. Her background also includes
consulting and learning product development.
In addition to speaking at conferences and delivering
award -winning workshops, Alison is passionate
about volunteering, mentoring and paying it forward.
This is an astounding conversation. Recorded
in September of 2025, this is Women Talking About
Learning, this is Ainsley and Alison talking
about female voice. Hey there, my name is Ainsley.
I'm really, really excited to be here. I am a
junior at UNC Chapel Hill in the United States,
and I also am the founder and CEO of a nonprofit
called Speak Out Sisterhood. We're a global nonprofit
for young professional women in STEM and something
that I really care a lot about. I also care a
lot about women's health and particularly closing
the gender health gap in medical education. So
that's where I'm at. So excited to be here. I'm
so excited to talk to you. I am Alison Shea.
I am a fourth generation educator. As I like
to say, I couldn't fight my destiny kicking and
screaming. And, you know, I was raised by a feminist,
by a couple of feminists, actually, both my mom
and my dad. And I was taught from a very young
age that, you know. girls could do anything boys
could do. My mother actually used to rewrite
my sexist children's books. And because I couldn't
read yet, I didn't know that that's not how the
story went until many years later. And so I was
really lucky to grow up with all these messages
of empowerment. And I never got told the narratives
of like, you know, boys this and girls that,
right? It was really about, you know, you can
be anything, you can do anything you want. And
so in the work that I do today, which is really
helping to make people, you know, sort of better
and help people grow and helping to make teams
better and managers and organizations and really
to smooth out some of the systemic issues we
might have that, you know, within the systems
that we put together for learning and for growth
and for business getting done. You know, basically,
I'm a curious cat who likes to come along and
fix things and make things better and see where
I can, you know, see where I can help. So that's...
doesn't fit neatly on a business card, but that's
kind of what I do. I love that. I love that.
I love that so much, especially because education
is, as I've gone in through my college career,
I have definitely come to appreciate the power
of education, particularly in de -stigmatizing
things and bridging those gaps and breaking down
systemic barriers. So I might go ahead and take
your practice of rewriting stories. To get rid
of the sexist undertones, because I love that
because that's such a good explicit way to combat
that kind of attempts to perpetuate a false narrative.
And it can be, you know, and I think that's a
really good point. And I think it's one of those
things where it can be it can be really sort
of public or it can be really private. There's
a book that I have from my childhood, which I
adore, which is called. Oh, wow. I'm blanking
on the name of it. Somebody in the terrible,
horrible, no good, very bad day. Right. What's
the kid's name? I'm totally blanking on whatever.
It is. It's Alexander in the terrible, horrible,
no good, very bad day. And it's a really great
book. And it's a great book for kids because
it's a great book that sort of says, hey. Some
days are like that, even in Australia. That's
the line in the book. But you get to the to the
part about why Alexander's Day is so bad. And
it's like, you know, so -and -so's mom packed
them this in their lunch. And so -and -so's mom
packed this in their lunch. You know, and it's
like this just assumption that only mothers are
doing, you know, the lunch packing. And so when
I. Oh my gosh, I never would have. Yeah. And
I don't know if my mother or father were reading
it, like with inclusive language as a child.
And that's why I never knew that that's what
the words were. But I am I automatically edit
it whenever I'm reading it to my kids. Because
that's so interesting. Wow. Yeah. I think that's
just it like the power of the voice, right? The
power of the voice to change things. And so and
I know, yeah, no, no, go ahead. And I know that's
what we're here to talk about, right? The female
voice and just sort of what we interpret that
to be. And I can start if you want, and then
we can kind of go from there. I will say, especially
recently, I think about the female voice, particularly
in terms of sort of the wariness and the danger
around using your voice as a woman. There is
a lot of discourse on my college campus just
recently about... And just within my friends,
too, of how can you use your voice to communicate
things that matter to you and speak up for what's
right while also protecting yourself at the same
time and protecting your peace and your security.
So it's a really, really hard line to walk, especially
when you add on the element of if you are advocating
for women's issues or if you're advocating for,
as a young woman, making that part of your identity
when you're talking. When you're speaking out,
there's a lot of hesitation and a lot of it,
I imagine, is built from a society that we live
in that is very antagonistic to women's voices
in general and speaking out about things that
conflict with a patriarchal society. As a young
woman, that is my perspective right now very
much. How can I still start to step into this
persona of wanting to speak out about things
that I care about, wanting to put my voice in
conversations that are really important, but
also knowing that I'm still a young woman and
that does put me in some degree at a level of
vulnerability because of the society that we
live in. So just be curious your thoughts on
that. Actually, that's a really great point because...
One of the things, especially with growing up
with parents who were very active in the civil
rights movement and the women's rights movement
and in the peace movement, lots of different
movements. But my parents were also very focused
on humans, right? And on treating people well,
even when you opposed each other and opposed
different ideas. And my father has been known
to go up to people at protests and be like, no,
you cannot do that. This is a soldier who is,
you know. who is doing everything they can to
keep us safe. You can't treat them disrespectfully,
you know, which is really, which is really cool
because that's really the way, that's the way
free speech should be, right? Like free speech
should recognize that free speech has a responsibility.
Right. And and so, you know, one of the things
I think about. Right. Because you and I are obviously
a couple of years apart in terms of our experiences.
And I would say, too, that that because when
I went to college, I actually started college
when I was in high school. And so I I graduated
much younger than people normally graduate from
college. So then all of a sudden I was like out
in the workforce and I was still. not that much
more than a teenager, you know? And so it was
an interesting period of time where I was like
still young, but like in this more, you know,
kind of grown up world. And one of the things
that I think I deal with, and I'm sure you do
too, is that we have these moments where we have
to make a decision about whether or not we're
going to modulate our voice in order to get something
done. Because I've been in many, many situations,
both in life and in work, where if I say it the
same way a man would say it, I will not achieve
my goal. But if I say it the way I know will
be effective, I'll achieve my goal. However,
to do so may kind of be taking a step back in
terms of what should be. But we don't live in
the world of should be. We live in the world
we live in today. And so here's a perfect example.
I have a daughter who's in high school, and she
actually is really good at math, really good
at STEM. She's taking the AP physics. She's taking
all of these classes. And there are not as many
girls in these classes as there are boys. And
my daughter is in this position where she is
constantly being asked, particularly by boys
in the class, to help them. with their work because
they don't understand it so she's been spending
time helping others to teach them this material
right and then is not viewed as one of the star
students despite the fact that her her average
like you know grade point average is like supposed
to go up to a four right like it's like higher
than that you know and i understand it's waiting
and all of that sort of stuff but like it's but
she's sort of not getting credit for what is
in high school, kind of the unnoticed, unpaid
labor that very often in the workplace, you know,
is something that women face doing. And, you
know, it's just sort of interesting, too, like
how there are these different generations, but
there are some themes that run through. one of
the reasons that i was really excited not just
about being on this podcast because i will be
on any podcast that andrew ever asked me to be
on honestly um i'll be like oh you want me to
talk about astrophysics let me get a learning
and i'll get on it you know but um because i
know nothing about astrophysics but but The other
thing, too, is that, you know, my mother was
also a teacher. And my mother was actually, my
mother also was, she loved science. And her favorite
New York Times Day of the week was the day that
the science section was a big section. It was
a long time ago. But anyway, you know, she's
always been really good at math. She and I were
both mathletes in school. So today is actually
her birthday. And yeah, so she actually died
in March after a 10 year battle with Alzheimer's.
So it was time. But it was it was sort of interesting
to me that this was the day that we were going
to be talking about women's voices, because I
think one of the things that I learned from my
mother was how to use my voice for power, how
to use my voice. And and when I say use it, I
mean, use. my messaging, use not just my words,
but how I said things to try and achieve goals.
And one of the goals that I've really had is
not just to seek to inform, which is kind of
the bread and butter of what I do, but to, to
help people to understand and connect, you know,
and to, you know, to help people, especially
when two things are true at the same time, right?
Like you have very different opinions or experiences
or things like that. How can I use my voice in
the service of understanding, not just in the
service of education? Absolutely. I love everything
you said. And I want to go back particularly
to something you mentioned about your daughter
not getting credit necessarily for the work that
she's putting in. And I think something that
I have definitely come to realize as I'm entering
the workforce in different capacities is that
you sometimes have to explicitly tell somebody,
hey, I did this thing. just so that they notice.
And I wouldn't be able to, I haven't been able
to notice yet whether that is something that
is stratified by the gender that you are. But
at the same time, I have noticed that I have
had to do that sometimes in my workforce. Tell
my boss, hey, I wanted to let you know I did
this thing because I want you to know that I
did it because it reflects well on me as an employee
and it reflects well on my journey through this
organization. And doing that is so awkward and
so hard and I don't want to do it. But at the
same time, I look at those. interactions. And
I'm very glad that I chose to advocate for myself
in that way by being so explicit in describing
what I've done, because nobody else is going
to do that for you. Nobody else is going to notice
those things that you've chosen to do. And it's
really hard to find that balance between wanting
to inform others of the achievements that you
want them to know about while also not coming
across as attention seeking or bragging or whatnot,
which I know is a very common thing that women
have to decide for themselves in the workplace
of learning how to advocate. This is something
that my nonprofit does a lot of work in. Our
internship program that we run explicitly attempts
to teach young college women these skills of
self -advocacy, negotiation, public speaking,
because they're so often things that you just
kind of have to pick up organically through interactions
with people, through mentorship and whatnot.
But there's never an explicit like, hey, let
me sit you down and teach you how to advocate
for yourself. But it's so important and so important
to make sure that your voice gets heard in the
way that you want it to. So you have control
over the narrative and then also in the spaces
where you want it to be heard. And I don't know,
it's just been an interesting journey. For me,
as somebody who also has always been very open
to helping others, not necessarily for the glory,
but just for that self -satisfaction of knowing
that I did something good for somebody and seeing
them grow, having to learn how to also tell people
about it at the same time. So then I do get the
credit that should be granted, maybe if that
wasn't the reason why I did it in the first place,
but it's still important for others to recognize
the work that I contribute. I don't know. It's
just it's an interesting dynamic as you kind
of grow older and you get out of the college
kid mindset into the I'm an employee now mindset
of how do I protect this journey that I'm building
for myself and not discredit the work I've done.
I have thoughts if you want. So one of the one
of the tactics that that I've used and others
used over the years is to like, for example,
at work. to send like an end of week roll up,
right? Where you sort of have the bullet points
of, you know, just want to keep you apprised
of these things. You can design it based on,
you know, in your world right now in academia,
right? Like you, you know, you may have it something,
be something where you're sort of, you know,
giving an update on projects or something like
that. But like, you know, in the workforce and
for the folks that you're. that you're helping,
that you're coaching and upskilling on how to
sort of manage this in life, is once you have
something documented, it's often more likely
to be taken as truth. And it's something you
can look back. And so what I would do is I would
give the email a particular subject line and
then have the dates, because then it's easy to
search for them. So when you want to pull them
all together and do like, say, a quarterly report
or a year -end look back, you then have all of
these things. You can also precede them in terms
of as you're doing the work during the week,
you just jot it in there. And then you can also
schedule them to get sent. In most email clients,
you can schedule them to get sent at a certain
time and a certain day. That having that already
pre -scheduled to go out will likely make sure
that you fill it out before it goes out. Right.
So that's a way to keep ourselves honest. But
I think it's really helpful because, you know,
the other thing, too, is to really think about
with any messaging that we have about the work
that we're doing is we really want to talk about
it, not just in the realm of the task, but in
the realm of the outcome. So yeah, like in the
case of my daughter, she's doing this tutoring
in class for free. And so what is the outcome?
The outcome is she is helping X number of students
per week to increase their understanding of physics
or whatever the topic is. So I think one of the
things that women are very often... I'm going
to say it's a combination of put in the position
to do and it's also... we feel a responsibility
to do. It's hard to say which chicken and which
egg came first there, right? But very often we
are in this position of feeling like we should,
you know, make the world a better place, which
of course everybody should, but we... often do
that in a way that's sort of self -sacrificing.
And that I think is, it's something we need to
sort of kind of pick apart, right? Like in our
lives and in our careers. Like, why am I doing
this? What is the benefit to me? What is the
benefit to others? And then like, if there's
only a benefit to others, that doesn't mean you
shouldn't do it, but it does mean that maybe.
Take some time to think about how do I now turn
this into something that's mutually beneficial
so that it's not just taking away from like,
you know, my education, for example, right? Or
it's not just taking time away from the work
that I need to do, the work that I'm going to
be judged on. So how do I get this work that
I'm sort of doing on the side for free? How do
I get that to be part of, you know, how I'm being
evaluated and how I'm going to ultimately be
compensated? So that's that's one thing. And
then the other thing that we should totally talk
about is the power of allies and about how do
we sort of like, you know, if you want to grow
vegetables, which I grew up in New York City.
terrible gardener so i everything i try and grow
dies so don't listen to me about gardening advice
but my understanding is that you need seeds and
you need sunshine you need water and you need
all of these things and pick the weeds and make
sure there are no bugs that are going to eat
them all and all of that and i think that we
kind of have to do that about protecting our
voices and I happen to have been I started out
as a teacher and I taught like everything from
kindergarten to college and then I taught rock
climbing because I'm afraid of heights and I
still am afraid of heights but I taught a chief
learning officer how to rock climb and he said
hey do you want a job and that was sort of how
I wound up in corporate learning. And that was
many, many years ago. And so now I've been in
this space, and it's sort of gone just from like
learning and development, but into much more
of, you know, organizational development and
design and, and, you know, sort of branching
out to I've done a lot of DEI work as well, because
I'm a human being who likes other human beings
and wants everybody to have a place at the table,
you know, I think that, you know, one of the
things when I think about all of this is sort
of like, What can I do to build not just, you
know, not just a way in through the door, but
how do I make that door open wider? And how do
I how do I help, you know, sort of keep up with
these things? And and for that, you know, building
a network of allies and activating allies is
so important because, well, I've I've been talking
for way too long. So you talk now and then I'll
tell you the story about an ally in the workplace.
I got so excited when you mentioned the documentation
aspect because it immediately made me think about
another aspect of women's voices, which is the
fact that we are not believed. And the whole
argument around believe women, believe women
versus that's still not happening. Even when
you have so many women coming out to talk about
things and being very explicit in describing
what has happened to them and still not being
believed. So there's that other element of like,
yes, you can take the initiative to speak out
and tell people what you've done, what you've
experienced, etc. But then there's that element
of that, will people then be receptive to your
voice and actually listen to you and actually
react in the way that they should and take action
based on what they've told you? So it's a two
-way street in some ways where we need a culture.
both that encourages and amplifies women's voices,
but at the same time also is ready to receive
them and act on them in a way that they should
be. So it's almost like, which one do you start
with, right? I obviously, my work is very much
centered on the first part of how can we empower
young women to use their voices, get in conversations
where they deserve to be and share their ideas,
share the concrete strategies that they have
for how to make things better and how to... progress
societal change because they deserve to be there
and because they have those ideas that do matter.
So that's what we focus on, right? But then there
is that added element of, well, once they get
into these spaces, luckily we have found spaces
for young women to be in where they are actually
valued and heard and whatnot. But that's not
going to be true everywhere, especially when
it comes to very sensitive issues that might
pit people against each other and pit interest
against each other. So how do you... address
that double -sided issue of women's voices needing
to be in more spaces but then also making sure
those spaces are receptive to women's voices
and not discrediting the voices just because
they're coming from women um so if you have any
thoughts on that I do. I just got so excited
when you mentioned documentation. Oh, my gosh.
Through my head for the past month. So I have
a story about this. So one of my daughters, who
is, you know, I will call a tweenager, you know,
not quite a teenager, but but not quite a little
kid anymore. And she was dealing with an issue,
which if you looked at the fact pattern, it was
harassment. Right. But. because it was a middle
school -aged issue, what she was being told was,
oh, well, it's because he likes you. And I wrote
a very pointed letter, which then it got addressed.
But one of the things I said in that letter was,
I know in the past we used to explain the reason
why a behavior was happening. as part of addressing
it. But I'm pretty sure that in this, you know,
date here, that is no longer an acceptable way
to deal with the fact that someone is doing things
that are against the student code. And, you know,
and I don't think that even if my daughter understands
why this is happening, that should change how
it's impacting her education. So I'd like to
know exactly what we're going to be doing to
stop the behavior that is not allowed by the
school behavioral code. And so I think part of
it is, you know, and in that case, I needed to
take that sort of like kind of, you know, approach.
But there are other times where similar, not
necessarily similar facts, but like other times
when, you know, someone who's sort of being victimized
by things that are inappropriate. Even if it's
not sexual harassment, even if it's, you know,
power struggles, whatever, whatever, you know,
lack of resources, whatever the situation is,
even like in the workplace. I think it's really
important for us to make sure that our methodology
for addressing problems does not stop at understanding
the problem. Right. And that we actually have
to get to what is the solution to the problem
because we understand why this is a problem and
we understand what's happening. Now let's understand
what solution we're going to employ to make that
stop happening. And I think that works well with
teenagers as well as adults. If we make that
part of our formal expectations of what's going
to happen and that, and that, I think really
like that's like in the formal sense, but then
I think there's the informal. sense that this
is where, you know, people's unconscious bias
around women's voices or women's stories or,
you know, other behaviors. I think that's where
that one's a little more tricky because it's
not as cut and dry as like, you know, here's
the violation, here's the policy, here's how
it's, you know, going to be addressed. And that's
where I think. Oftentimes, and again, I'm going
to back off of things that are egregious, that
are crimes and stuff like that, and get much
more into the subtle ways that women and their
voices are often excluded from halls of power.
One of the things I've experienced a lot over
the course of my career is I will say an idea,
and then five seconds later, someone who has
more power will say my exact same idea, and everybody
will go, great idea. Whereas it was like crickets
when I said it, you know? And one of the things
that I've done is I have people that I'm an ally
to, and I have people that are allies for me.
And I've had situations where I've literally
been told to stop talking in meetings. And then
I had a very senior gentleman in the meeting
go. I want to hear what Allison has to say, because
she always has the really good ideas. And it
was really cool to like have somebody have my
back like that. And I've had meetings where I
have strategized ahead of time with people where
there was an ongoing issue of only certain people
being listened to or talked to or called on or
whatever. And really to sort of tag team it because
if you're tag teaming it, right, and you know,
and maybe the person that you're tag teaming
with is like the golden child that day, right?
And like, they always get called on. But if they
get called on, and then they call on somebody
else before they see their time, right? And they're
like, Oh, you know what, Ainsley, I'd love to
hear what you think about this, then, you know,
then Ainsley doesn't get shut down in the meeting,
because Ainsley has already been given the floor.
And so sometimes sort of having that That sort
of, you know, verbal dance essentially kind of
worked out ahead of time. The other thing, too,
is to pay attention. Right. Like who is getting
more airtime? Try and figure out why and try
and figure out, like, is it a problem or is it
not a problem? I mean, maybe that person really
is the expert in the room and maybe it has nothing
to do with anything else. But we do know that
when more voices are involved. we tend to come
up with better solutions than when we just talk
into an echo chamber. And so I think it's really
important that we be really strategic about making
sure that we're getting that full feedback. Absolutely.
One of the things that I'm noticing throughout
this conversation is that we're focusing a lot
on having to very explicitly call out behaviors
that are attempting to suppress women's voices
or just antithetical to the idea of having equal
representation of all voices. And I find that
so interesting because it sort of is reflective
of how a lot of the suppression of voices can
be very implicit, very, very, very not invisible
so much as just not obvious. And so the remedy
to that, obviously, is trying to be as explicit
as possible and calling out those behaviors,
calling out those situations where voices are
not being taken seriously. Which is frustrating
then for, like, say, for instance, I'm in a room
and this is a true example, I guess. I've been
in rooms where I've been very much the youngest
person there, the only young woman there. And
there are people I don't know. But I have a question
for somebody in that room and I want to ask it
or somebody in the room. This actually did happen
to me. Somebody in the room was talking about
things that they potentially could do to help
support college women. And it was so funny to
be sitting there being like, hi, you know, I'm
a college woman. I should probably like speak
up about this. And so this was this internal
battle in me of like, should I? kind of speak
out and say like hey i kind of want to contradict
everything you're saying because you think that
you know what it's like to be a college woman
but i am standing here with the experiences of
being a college -age woman right now and i know
that everything you're saying doesn't really
actually align with like what would be most helpful
for us um so this was this internal battle of
me of being like should i say something should
i just kind of sit and wait because i'm not really
comfortable yet in this space but i did end up
raising my hand i did end up saying like as a
college woman actually you know i would love
to tell you this and i found i don't know it
was just it put me in that position now of having
to kind of be not only on the attack of saying
hey let me just like let you know the thing that
you're saying is not completely true um and then
also on the defense of like now putting myself
out in this space as somebody who potentially
could be a troublemaker or whatnot of trying
to contradict what the expert opinion in the
room is putting out there which is unfair to
me then because that's putting so much of a burden
on me to have to carry all of that when in reality
what I'm really just doing is trying to make
sure that the narrative is correct so it's bothersome
that a lot of the weight is put on the people
who are also trying to navigate the fact that
they are being silenced and being um ignored
and and all of that and i still to this day even
find myself somewhat hesitant in certain places
in certain rooms um because you have that element
of all the different identities that you have
right is that um Those impact the way that you
present yourself in a space and the way that
you choose to interact with the different people
in that space. And so for me, my identities of
being a young person and then also a woman really
kind of compound sometimes in spaces where I
know I really want to speak up about what's being
said. I know I want to try to set the record
straight, but I also recognize that people are
really going to look at me as very much an outsider,
both because I'm a young person and also because
I'm a woman. It's a difficult place to be. And
I think this is really why, like you said, having
allies is so important because one of my favorite
people in the whole world, he's a fantastic mentor
to me and he's such a feminist and I love him
for it because he sometimes doesn't even intentionally,
but when we're in conversation, he'll just say
something that's like, I'm like, I wish there
were more people like you generally in the world
who recognize that the challenges that. In this
case, again, we're specifically talking about
women, the challenges that women face in being
taken seriously, etc. And I'm so grateful for
the people like him who are not by any means
a woman, could not possibly understand on a personal
level what it's like, but at the same time are
stable enough in their own identity to recognize
that people of an identity different than theirs
need their support and need their vocal support.
I am just so grateful for the people that have
been allies for me. And I hope to be the same
kind of ally to others, right? I'm entering my
junior year now, so I'm in my junior year. So
definitely kind of in that middle ground of being
a mentor to some people while also a mentee.
And it's such an interesting place to be getting
to kind of reflect on what has helped me become
so confident in my voice while also still learning
from the people who have made me that confident
person. You know, I think you raise a couple
of many, many excellent points. And so one of
them I want to just sort of go back to is that,
you know, the visibility pieces is very key,
you know, because we often don't, we look at
people and we think we know them, right? Or we
hear them speak. We think we know them. We think
we know what makes them up. We think we know
their experience, but we're generally wrong about
that. And so I think it's. I always, when I speak
up for certain things, I'm always speaking up
for the person in the room who can't, you know,
because they're, you know, they are in hiding
in plain sight. And so that's something I try
and think about within my sphere of power. But
the other thing, too, is we have to really think
about the difference between speaking up just,
you know, sort of speaking truth to power. That
definitely has its place, right? But I think
we also need to think about what is the outcome
we're trying to achieve, right? Do we want to
change this one person's language in this meeting,
like at the risk that they feel ashamed and then
never talk about it again when they actually
have the power to make some change? Or do we
want the change, right? And so very often when
I'm in that situation, what... I try and do is
figure out how I can sort of rather than speak
up to them, right? I try and see how I can partner
with them and springboard what I am trying to
share using what they're saying, even if I may
think that what they're saying is totally bonkers
and absolutely wrong. How can I then scoop them
up and bring them along with me on this journey
towards the better future that we want? Because,
you know, what is that? You catch more flies
with honey than you do with vinegar, kind of
saying that my grandmother had. And so, you know,
I think that that's a really important thing.
It's so often when we have these differences,
it's so important, I think, to think about somebody
who maybe they just don't know better. Right.
And like, you know, like Maya Angelou said, like
when you know better, you do better. And I think
so often if we can gently bring them. along and
bring them up to speed so they know better it's
much more effective in the long run than making
everything a fight and and i remember um when
i was in college we had these take back the night
marches to you know to really try and address
the problems of you know uh women being sexually
assaulted and raped and things like that but
the thing that bothered me is that they didn't
allow men to be on the march and i was like women
don't get safer if it I'm older than you. It
was a long time ago. But like, you know, maybe
now it's everybody. I don't know. But I would
actually help plan the march, but I could never
get the folks who did these marches to change
and like make it all inclusive. And so I would
never go on the march because I had failed in
trying to open it up. being confident and speaking
out is just being very grounded in my values
and the person that I want to be in the space
and the impression that I want to give and the
messages that I want people to sort of associate
with me. And that's a really hard thing to come
up with. It takes a lot of like self -reflection
and self -awareness to ground yourself in who
you are. But I've found it to be such a powerful
way. vulnerability. Like, absolutely. It's, it's
almost like fear of literacy, right? Like, it's
not, it's not like, you know, not being afraid,
it's being afraid and maybe doing it anyway.
It's like becoming being able to sit with the
things that we're still afraid of at the same
time that we're moving forward to, to a place
where, you know, like, like I mentioned before,
I started rock climbing because I'm afraid of
heights. I am still afraid of heights. I still
rock climb. But like, you know, I didn't conquer
the fear. I grew to, you know, hold hands with
it and live with it in a way that I could still
keep climbing up metaphorically and realistically.
Yeah, I say all this to say when I think about
using our voices at some, you know, the choice
to use your voice. is a personal choice and so
to some degree it does connect back to why you're
using your voice and how you hope to be received
so i i wish i'd known sooner how to and i actually
you know my journey in becoming more confident
and speaking out about things i believe really
has come from putting myself in places where
i knew i wasn't comfortable having those conversations
yet but i wanted to become more comfortable So
I interned with a reproductive health organization
nonprofit last summer, and it made me so much
more confident in having conversations about
things related to reproductive health and reproductive
justice because I was actively being exposed
to very factual evidence -based conversations
by the people in these organizations and their
partners. And having that deep -rooted knowledge
of... The facts and the evidence in these situations
has made me so much more comfortable in speaking
about them because I know what's true. I know
what I what I value and I know what is is is
what what cannot be contradicted. So I would
say to if I could talk to my younger self, I
could talk to other young people like myself.
I would say learning what your values are, learning
how learning the truth behind the things you
want to speak about. is so grounding and so important
for helping you build that confidence and that
competence when you do decide to make your voice
heard. It sort of goes along with that idea of
walk softly and carry a big stick, right? And
it's so often we think we just have to get louder
to be heard. And I found both with children and
with adults, sometimes what we really need to
do is to just talk a little quieter. And people
then sometimes lean in and, you know, and I In
the case of small children, then you can grab
them and get them in the car seat. But in the
case of executives, it's very often the case
that when we get them listening in a calm, quiet
conversation. we're often able to make a lot
more headway towards understanding than when
our conversations are big and loud and all of
those walls and defenses are up and the brain
is busy thinking about the comeback instead of
listening to the words that you're saying. And
it makes a huge, huge difference for us. And
yeah, the burden is often on us to like... take
some time at the beginning of the conversation,
to take some time at the beginning of the presentation
to figure out like, okay, and recognizing that
I'm looking out at my audience and I'm making
assumptions based on how they look, just like
they're looking at me and making assumptions
based on how I look, right? Like, what is the
tactic here? What does the room feel like? But
what is my main goal? What do I need them to
walk away knowing, to walk away thinking, to
walk away believing, to walk away doing? And
how long do I need them to do that for? Do I
need them to do that for the election tomorrow?
Or do I need them to do that for the world their
great -grandchildren will live in? And all of
that really makes a difference in how I approach
it. I find it's much more of an art than a science.
But like science, we often have to have a lot
of failed experiments in order to get to that
one beautiful, you know, cure. So I guess we
just have to keep trying. Well, it was so great
to talk to you. This was so wonderful. Thank
you so much for your time. Oh, thank you so much.
It was great to hear your voice and learn about,
you know, what you're doing. And I'm going to
follow your journey because I'm sure we're going
to see amazing things that you continue to work
on as you go through school and beyond. We love
this episode. Both of our guests shared some
great advice on getting their voices heard and
also the difficulties they've encountered. A
massive thank you to Ainsley and Alison for their
insight into this topic and for their time in
making this a brilliant recording. We know you'll
want to connect with them afterwards and their
details are in the show notes, along with information
about how to connect with us here at Women Talking
About Learning. Remember to like and subscribe
to the podcast on your podcast player. It does
make a real difference in helping people find
and recommend us. We'll be back in a couple of
weeks and next time it's a returning topic. the
more content one. As always, thanks for listening
and we'll see you again soon.