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founder prize before the 31st of October. Okay,
into the episode. Hello everyone and welcome
to this episode of the fun one of the Women Talking
About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. It
always seems as if we're looking for ways to
make learning and development fun. This might
involve using methods like gamification, storytelling,
interactive activities and creative content to
try and increase employee engagement and knowledge
retention. To delve further into this area, we
have three great guests to discuss this. Our
first guest is Jess Rogers. Jess is a leadership
coach with almost two decades of experience,
helping ambitious, values -driven senior leaders
find their voice, lead authentically and advance
their careers without compromise. She's coached
directors, VPs, chiefs of staff, senior council
and others who care deeply about their teams
but often feel unseen or pressured to fit conventional
leadership models. Our second guest is Elaine
Gosden. Elaine is CEO and founder of Blue New
Consulting, a leadership development consultancy
specialising in organisational growth. Driven
by her values and belief that life is too short
not to make a difference, she connects the right
people to the right solutions while enabling
others to be their best selves. Our third guest
is Dr Kuva Jacobs. As co -founder of Emergent
Learning, Kuva is a learning strategist and designer
fascinated by the sweet spot between fun and
effectiveness. Together with her award -winning
learning design team, she explores how gamification
can deepen engagement and drive performance,
from role plays and characterisation to humour
and chatterbox -style decision -making tools.
This is an awesome conversation. Recorded in
September of 2025, this is women talking about
learning. This is Jess, Elaine and Kuva talking
about fun. So I think I was the one who came
up with this. topic, which is the fun one. And
it's something that's quite close to my heart
because I'm obviously very passionate about learning.
And for me, I feel that if the learners can have
fun while they're learning, not only does it
make it a better experience for them, but it
also means that they're going to remember things
better as well. The learning is going to have
more impact. So I think that that's a really
great aim. But where it gets interesting is people's
ideas of fun are really different. So there's
no one remedy that we can put into our training
that's going to make everyone happy and think
that it's fun. Sometimes you're going to have
different reactions. So I thought that that was
a really interesting topic to discuss because
I think that we need to... go about this with
a little bit of caution. So I guess I would love
to hear your stories about how you've used fun
in learning when it's worked and when you've
hit some challenges as well. Can I? I'll jump
in here. I agree with you, Kuva. I think that
fun is a really good and important facet for
learning, definitely, especially when you're
working with groups. But you're right. Fun looks
different to different people. And I think when
you bring in people's lived experience and people's
backgrounds as well, their perception of fun
really can change. And so you have to be quite
careful as a learning practitioner not to just
assume that we're going to do this and it's going
to be fun and everybody's going to love it and
it's going to be great. It's about bringing some
connectedness. into it as well because when you
build those connections on a different level
when you're working in a group a learning group
I think that's when you can then sort of tease
out the fun and almost in a in a strange way
fun sort of manifests itself naturally rather
than it being something that you have to create
absolutely yeah I had a session a couple weeks
ago and the topic was really great we were teaching
about e -commerce and we were talking about brand
and styling and things like that and in the chat
one of the participants started grabbing photos
of another participant and then using AI to dress
them in different costumes and then putting that
into the chat and it was linking back to what
we were saying because it was all about brand
and so they were having a lot of fun just laughing
at this chat and the things that were popping
out but at the same time they were still listening
to us and so it made the session a lot more enjoyable
which was great and then it also gave us permission
to have a bit of play in that session as well
which was really nice. hmm it's really interesting
isn't it like even the word fun and I love what
you said just about perception um because like
one of my personal values is is joy and I I just
think the world needs more joyful workplaces
if we're not if we're not experiencing joy of
some kind and that's different for everybody
um whilst we're at work then we're never going
to access like any level of true performance
or high performance so for me like the attraction
of coming on this particular podcast was about
actually me having a little bit of access to
joy by talking to other women who want to talk
about joy and fun at work um but also to to really
you know hear some exciting things about how
you're making stuff fun so yeah I guess Jess
what drew you to coming on this particular one?
It's not dissimilar to you, Elaine. Joy is a
really key thing, I think, for life. And I always
say joy is a feeling. You know, people talk about
wanting to be happy. But happiness requires sort
of the circumstances to be right. Whereas joy
is what you cultivate in yourself. So even if
the circumstances aren't. great you sort of you
know you have that mindset you have that hope
and that's what brings joy and I think um when
I when I saw fun I yeah I saw the link to joy
just like yourself but also I thought you know
so many times we um go on these business podcasts
we listen to these business podcasts and they
have these sort of these really heavy topics
yeah there was a lightness that came with the
fun one and I thought yeah I want to bring some
lightness into work and into learning because
that's how we do our best work, isn't it? When
we are in that place, that space of fun and joy,
the work becomes somewhat easy, isn't it? Yeah,
exactly. Akiva, can I ask you, I'm guessing for
you, did you spot that gap and that's the reason
why you suggested the fun one or what was your
motivation for suggesting the fun one? Sorry,
before I answer that question, when you guys
are talking about joy, I can't help but think
about the movie Inside Out. I've got that image
in my brain. I don't know if you've both seen
it. And then sadness as well. And, you know,
you see her dragging along the ground and she's
not able to do anything. And then you've got
joy. And, you know, there's someone who I work
with who, you know, reminds me a little bit of
her and she's really active. and always getting
stuff done and it's fantastic so yeah there's
definitely an attitude that you want to cultivate
right definitely so yeah sorry going back to
your question Elaine yeah so I was just saying
what motivated you to to suggest this one like
did you spot it as a gap in the like I'm just
curious for you like where did that come from
uh I've had I've written um Quite a few LinkedIn
posts and then from the LinkedIn posts drawn
out blog posts as well around the topic of gamification.
Okay. And I find it like such an interesting
topic because it is so, you know, there's so
much controversy around it, around the fact that
sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And
so I find that really fascinating. How can you
find the path forward where it actually. lands
and fits um and you know doesn't fall flat which
I've seen both in my experience and yeah in um
one of my inspirations was when I'm a parent
as well so I've got um two daughters and I as
a parent didn't want to be too I guess aggressive
like I wanted my children to behave but at the
same time I didn't want to be this strict bossy
parent and I went to this uh session about it
was called playful discipline and it's all about
how to use play to to help with your children
and there's some really interesting concepts
in that there's a book about that as well um
andrew and um and yeah i i was quite fascinated
in that and i tried out all these different concepts
and it was funny because sometimes they don't
want to play like for example I had this game
which was clip race to try and get them to clip
their seat belts in the car simple right but
then they're like no I don't want to play clip
race anymore because they didn't like that feeling
of competitiveness of the game the pressure that
the game was actually putting on them they didn't
want to have to you know compete with each other
so I found that a really interesting component
that when we add this level of competition maybe
people don't respond well to that yeah it comes
back to right what you were saying for me at
the beginning cuva about everyone's experiencing
fun differently and this this concept of forced
fun within a learning environment it really really
really puts people off so it's something really
interesting to poke around in like how have you
how have you guys experienced that in sessions
that you're running and delivering like when
is when has it kind of worked really well and
when is it when is the incorporating fun really
fell on its face I think um it's just you've
made me think Elaine you're right that it can
turn people off even though the fun is fun yeah
but when if you go into a space or in my experience
you go into a space and you say now we're going
to do a game You do visibly feel and see people's
faces and feel the energy kind of shrink back
because people immediately think you're going
to put me on the spot or you're going to force
me to do something. And particularly those who
have introverted tendencies, they immediately,
it raises something in them. And that's back
to the point, I think, where I really think when
people feel connected. they have fun so actually
it doesn't have to be the thing necessarily it's
the energy that's created and it's when people
are able to feel connected feel that they can
then be playful feel that they can then sort
of give themselves give more of themselves into
the situation or into the environment that the
fun manifests itself quite naturally I mean,
that's what's happened in my experience. And
even, you know, sort of in traditional training,
you do an icebreaker at the beginning. Yeah,
cringe. As soon as you say icebreaker, it's meant
to be fun. Yeah. Yeah, cringe. So it's almost
finding different ways to do icebreakers without
calling them icebreakers, just to bring everybody
into the room. And sometimes it can be as simple
as asking a question as opposed to. playing a
game that brings that element of connectedness
and fun to it. I think use of humour is another
thing that's really important as well. Like how
can we use humour effectively for fun, for shifting
away from that really dry, boring content into
something that's funny and interesting. Just
going back to that same course, we've done lots
of courses, but somehow I'm gravitating back
to that. I added this character in to talk about
learner personas. And instead of just putting
a dry persona in, I had Jack Tyson and he's a
chainsaw guy. And he is out on the farm in Australia
and he's got me ute and I chuck me chainsaw in
the back. And, you know, it just had this. that
when everyone saw that slide, they laughed and
they had this really positive reaction to it.
But I could have just, you know, put a standard
28 -year -old influencer who does blah, blah,
blah. Instead, I'd created this fun character.
So sometimes things like that, a little bit of
storytelling can really set the tone as well.
Elaine, I've just noticed there's a question.
How can we be more connected? without this forced
phone and i wonder what's your experience i think
it's really interesting isn't it like for me
the skill of the facilitator is to present the
connection opportunity rather than the agenda
item so it's like moving away from hey now now
kids we're gonna because it's that to me and
i've i've had this for years this debate in my
head about am i a facilitator of great experiences
or am i a trainer and and i personally really
dislike the word trainer or training I don't
know why I've never really sat down and reflected
on it too much but that that question sort of
helps me to understand well actually maybe what
I don't like is that the role of a trainer is
to give this to you whereas the role of a facilitator
feels more like person -centered learning so
it's more like I'm meeting you where you are
you will meet the learning where you are and
if we can make that a bit fun um through some
clever use of activities that doesn't feel like
we're going in this direction and now we're segwaying
over here because we know it's time for an energy
change. I feel like that's the skill of the facilitator
is to read the room well enough to know that
something is needed, but also to respect the
fact that you're probably going to have quite
a diverse group with different needs. So I don't
know that I'm ever there yet. I think I'm still
experimenting in all of the sessions that I'm
running around how do you... How do you stop
that kind of, oh, and now it's time for this.
But yeah, I don't know. I'm still working on
it after 22 years in the training room. I think
that's the beauty, isn't it, of being a facilitator,
that you don't know what you're going to say.
Yes, you have your material that you want to
share, but there's something. quite magical about
meeting all of your participants where they are
so you go into that space knowing that for example
this is an inclusive leader uh program and this
is this is what we're delivering today as part
of that but actually feeling what people are
bringing into the room as well and sometimes
thinking that or getting them to name that starts
to build that environment straight away of trust
of learning as well and i i actually that's that's
part of the the job that i love the most that
kind of and i said that's the coach in me sort
of just meeting clients where they are so being
able to remember and sort of and see what comes
into the room and sometimes yeah it can be challenging
but more often than not suspending to some degree
what i have to deliver just being there is where
the magic happens I agree. And I also think too,
like Andrew's asking us about fun and I sort
of think, you know, let's stay with the fun.
Like some of the things that we've done is like
bring like fancy dress, which sounds like ultra
cringe to some, but we're doing like a themed
gamification of a thing. So like it's all metaphors
and analogies, but we might be taking a group
through, let's say they're at the beginning or
the end of a leadership development journey.
like we're metaphorically going to take them
through the desert. The desert is going to have
some challenges. And so as they go through the
desert, they're going to come across problems
and objects and stuff. And we've got games that
we play that are like half day, full day games
with them. Not our games. We're bringing in a
licensed team to do that for us, but it just
works so brilliantly. But we'll turn up with
all our desert gear on so that everyone immediately,
it's like, it's not like, hey guys, we're going
to have some fun now. The signaling is different.
The signaling is like, this is different. This
isn't. This isn't like strap yourselves in for
a facilitated learning session and some PowerPoints.
This is an experience. You're going into the
desert. So, yeah, I don't know about you guys.
What have you done to really bring in the fun
and the humor and the joy, I guess? I'm just
remembering, actually, this was slightly different.
I went on a retreat at the beginning of the year
and there was dancing was what was brought into
it. into our into part of our um retreat experience
so it wasn't because it was still a learning
experience even though it was a retreat and when
the facilitator mentioned music and movement
the initial response was oh that we had to stand
up but actually you know once somebody started
started with a silly move and everybody started
laughing all of a sudden it released something
i don't there is there's a chemical isn't there
i guess when that laughter i think or serotonin
it was one of those yeah It was amazing the difference
it made. And by the end of the session, it wasn't
actually a particularly long session, this part
of the retreat. We were in fits of laughter.
We were all doing a catwalk. There were pictures
of everybody, you know, busting their dance moves.
And it was just amazing the power of that humour,
the power of that. The silliness almost. Absolutely,
the silliness. You know, nobody was trying to
be the best dancer. It was just that. movement
of one's body and it just opened us all up for
what was to come next so I think that there's
something about bringing movement into it and
people letting allow people to use their bodies
so to your point Elaine you said about dressing
up and you know going through the day and there's
there's something about it's using your full
bodies and it's not just the cerebral thing it's
it's everything and I think that's an experience
yeah yeah and sometimes it's even just the smaller
things like I was running a session um about
designing learning and I got everyone to stand
up and I said to them okay I want everyone actually
I used a voice I was like okay now we are all
ballerinas we need to make our arms nice and
straight and then And then everyone pointed their
arms and I said, okay, now we are auditioning
for a ballet. I'm going to choose the people
who have very nice straight arms. And then everyone,
you know, stood with their arms nice and straight.
And then I said, okay, now we are going to be
the zombies. And then everyone, okay, like everyone
changed so that they look like zombies. And I
said, okay, your arms are not straight anymore.
You know, I sort of played up the zombie thing
a little bit at first. I was like. great, you
guys are looking great as zombies. But I said,
your arms are not straight anymore, but you've
done this intentionally. So you knew what the
rules are and you choose to break them intentionally.
So we want to do the same thing with learning
as well. You need to know what the rules are
when you're designing good learning, but it's
okay to break them as well, as long as you're
breaking them intentionally. So I just used that
metaphor to help them to understand that concept.
And it also meant that in the middle of this
full day session, they got to stand up, they
got to use their bodies, they got to have a little
bit of a giggle before they sat back down. So
things like that, even small things, I think
can really help to change a session as well when
we can think about them. Yeah, we have a lovely
little exercise that we throw into one of our
leadership programs when we're talking about...
and the importance of vision and leaderships
and, you know, knowing, I guess it goes back
to Covey's kind of, you know, beginning with
the end in mind. And we sort of do a little bit
of input, but then it sounds really similar,
Kuva. We get everyone to stand up in a space
where they can't be touched. And then we ask
them all to close their eyes and then just to
think about which way is north. And we have them
all with their eyes closed. point to the direction
that they think is north and then they open their
eyes and look around the room and of course unless
it's really clear or unless everyone is pointing
in a different direction and you think gosh if
we were an intact team and sometimes they are
but if we were an intact team we're a team of
leaders and this is our This is our perception
of where we're all going. Just look at the differences
that we have. And again, it's just an opportunity
to get everyone up off their seats kind of thinking.
And it's so funny because everyone's like, whoa,
we're so wrong. We're so incorrect with that.
But the metaphor is really strong. So maybe it's
the metaphors that we need. And even just that
experience as well, like closing your eyes in
the middle of a session, standing up as a group.
instead of just sitting in a room and watching
someone at the front speak like that's so different
and so that in itself really changes the experience
for people I remember a few years ago and so
you know the Amy Cuddy power pose yes love that
um a female leadership development program and
one of the things like saying to everybody right
so let's all stand up now and do do you are your
power pose so some people it was the hands on
the hips for some people it was you know putting
their wrists down whatever it might be but there's
something again it's that just one thing stand
up and do so we talk about the power pose the
reason for the power pose the research behind
it and it's like okay now we want everybody to
do their power pose and doing it in person was
really powerful and then you know the pandemic
happened and we were all on doing lots of things
online and it was just as powerful doing it online
actually you know getting Wow. And so I'm going
to take a screenshot and, you know, just for
the purposes of this group. So you will have
a record of it, if that's okay. You can switch
your camera off if you want, whatever. But people
very rarely did switch their cameras off. But
it's just doing something like just a pose. It's
similar, I guess, to what you're saying, Elaine,
when you stand up and face north. It's doing
a pose, your pose, that makes you feel powerful.
And it made people feel powerful and it got them
into their bodies and got them. And also. It
makes people laugh. Yeah. So, you know, it's
a relatively serious topic, you know, female
leadership and, you know, improving female leadership
in sort of environments where, you know, they're
trying to increase their visibility of female
leaders. And then you bring this element into
it of fun. Yeah. And people immediately feel
them relax and say, actually, it doesn't have
to be this serious thing. Yes, it's serious.
Yes, it's important. But actually. It can also
be fun. Yeah. And it's that kind of energy change,
isn't it? I guess we're looking for, because
if we are working with a group of whoever, leaders
or people, doesn't matter. But if we're working
with them for a long time, over a series of hours
or days, you know, we need to find those moments
to shift the energy, to keep them all engaged
and kind of grooving and whatever. But I think
it's something we need to pay more attention
to. Particularly, you mentioned the dreaded C
word, Jess, like since COVID, like I think. people's
expectation of a of a learning environment and
what's fun is a bit different now I don't know
I don't know are you guys seeing any changes
in terms of how people are experiencing fun in
learning post -covid that's a really loaded question
for me because I think I've got a view but what's
your what's your view what's the other interesting
to hear your view I think well I think but If
we go right back to the beginning where we were
talking about fun and human connection, I think
people are seeking that more. And I think certainly
what we're seeing from our clients is that nobody's
asking for virtual learning anymore. Now it's
no longer a necessity. Everyone wants to go back
in the room. Everyone is seeking that human connection,
perhaps because there aren't as many opportunities
as there were before to just connect in an office
space, since most people have retained some level
of flexible working. So I think it's really interesting
that, you know, what is it that people are seeking
given we had the opportunity and we mentioned
introversion preference earlier and how an introversion
preference might prefer to be alone or might
have an extra cringe when we mention icebreakers
or fun. But even with that said, I still think
the most introverted of introverts is still going
to seek some level of human connection. So I
guess that's why it's loaded for me because what
I see in our clients is that they're demanding
it now more than ever and yeah we see that in
the requests for work that are coming through
but how does it for you guys are you seeing any
differences from the last five years to pre -2020
well interestingly enough I just ran a session
that we ran it virtually and face -to -face so
we got to experience the same session with a
group that was virtual and then a group that
was face -to -face and so you can really see
then you know you're not comparing like two different
topics you're comparing the same topic with two
groups and I think you really it is harder to
build that relaxed atmosphere when you are online
you do miss so much it just it's like you have
to be using the chat a lot more there's always
a little bit of delay when people are speaking
you can't have multiple people speaking it's
very hard to generate a conversation within the
group between two of the participants so there's
a lot more challenge in the facilitation to get
that that natural flow of conversation that can
happen in in a physical space yeah so I mean
obviously I think most people if they have a
choice they'll prefer to deliver face -to -face
over virtual but yeah there's always business
challenges around that as well where maybe people
aren't able to physically come to that office
they you know in Australia I don't know how it
is in the UK but in Australia we've got companies
where they've got people in lots of different
states and it's become more distributed and so
the requirement is still there that we have to
support across a wider geographical area because
it's no longer everyone's in that one office
so We can all go there. Now it's like you could
have someone in every state and you just have
to cater for that. Yeah, I think from a facilitator
perspective, which I'm going to take a different
perspective, I think that there is a magic in
that face -to -face that is lost, you know, when
you're online. But as you say, Kiva, there's
that kind of, there's the business need because
people are, well, online enables companies to
reach more of their people. in you know a wider
wider areas and also bring people together from
different areas at a much lower cost than flying
people around or you know transporting people
around um so i think there's always a place for
online but i think there's a richness that gets
lost on online that you don't get face to face
a richness section dare i say a bit of joy is
lost as well like a bit of the joy i don't know
is that just me that the joy is lost on an online
connection i i think it's I think it's connection.
It's a deeper connection when you're face -to
-face because it's the conversations that also
happen between the sessions that you're having
and when they do the group work, the conversations
as they walk to and from the area where they're
doing the group, if they're doing breakouts,
that kind of thing. You don't get that if you're
in a call, an online call, and you put people
in breakouts, then they're whipped out of the
breakouts when the timer goes. you know when
you're face to face they're having the conversations
and then they're the conversations extends don't
they as they come back to the main room or back
into the space um so i think there's a for me
it's about connection i don't know if it's so
it's joy and connection are very interlinked
but there's something in the connection that
gets lost i think the one thing that i've found
i really enjoy using miro and so i'll build out
these games on miro that you can't necessarily
do face -to -face like they don't always work
so I ran one with my team for example just made
this up called the game of churn and the idea
was that quite often we do work and then but
we haven't asked the right questions in the beginning
we haven't examined the scope closely enough
or the brief or whatever and then we go off in
the wrong direction and then we waste a lot of
time so I was like how can I sort of teach this
as an experience to my team and so I came up
with this big it's like a chess board but it
literally makes you go blind because there's
a million little black and white squares hidden
in these squares was a little trophy underneath
the white square so you couldn't really see it
and then I put chess pieces and they could move
in the direction of the chess piece but the first
time I gave it to them I said all right off you
go like everyone move once and then draw a line
and then move again draw a line and so they had
this big mess of moving and they didn't know
where they were going or anything like that and
then the second round they were allowed to ask
questions and so but they were only allowed to
ask yes no questions and so then that allowed
them to experience working together as a group
and being able to slowly get towards the answer.
So they had to think about what are the right
questions. So there was a lot of metaphors in
there, obviously asking them to reflect as they
went through as well. What was nice there was
that the digital platform allowed me to create
a game that I guess I could have done it. in
person but it was easier on Miro to create a
game like that so I think there's things that
we can do on Miro that are actually quite cool
and I love brainstorming on Miro as well because
you can have lots of people in one space putting
all their ideas together and then you can use
the tool to cluster and theme the ideas and so
you can do things with Miro that you can't as
easily do when you are physically in person.
I've never heard of it that's a top tip. So it's
just a virtual whiteboard, basically. Very cool.
Maybe I'll bring up my game of chair while you
guys are talking so you can see, you can visualise
it. We did a little exercise at one of our conferences
recently where each conference table had a ball
of string on the table and the people sitting
together broadly didn't know each other. There
maybe were one or two people that knew. And the
name of the game, it was a bit of a nice way
of doing. the dreaded icebreaker but it was you
know so maybe i start with a ball of string and
i say something like i've got a sister and then
someone else on the table has to say oh so have
i and i i hold on to the end of the string but
i throw the ball of the string to the person
and then And so the game continues, everybody
saying something about themselves and finding
a connection with someone else in the room. So
you end up with this real physical manifestation
of how we're all connected, which was really
lovely. And then if you're feeling really brave
as facilitators and if you've got enough string,
then you can broaden it out to neighboring tables
and sort of start playing with the connections
across the room as well. Of course, if you've
got enough string. bearing in mind health and
safety issues but again that was just such a
lovely joyful way of rather than doing the kind
of dreaded icebreaker and it sounds i don't know
when you were talking about miro kuva it kind
of is like oh you can do some similar things
maybe not quite as cool in the whiteboard like
you know idea space but you know to those connections
like there's some lovely ways of doing it so
and i love that that's physical yeah Yeah. Yeah.
It's nice to have something physical. Just where
it's going around the table or around the room.
Yeah. And also from an inclusivity perspective,
you can also say, well, hang on a minute. If
Fred over there has put his hands up loads and
the ball of string has been thrown to him three
or four times, then what can we, if someone's
not got it yet, what connection could we find
with them? Like, how are we going to bring these
people in so that everyone gets at least one
opportunity to be included? So, you know, to
increase those. connections as you really challenge
people and what they're thinking so there you
go a little free one from me oh that's wonderful
this has been such a good chat yeah I've loved
it. It's really nice to meet you both and hang
out in this space. We should probably do this
more. Definitely. This is my little game of churn,
just so you guys know. Oh, it really is blinding.
Look at that. Yeah. And then eventually down
in this little corner, they found it, but they
actually went round and round in circles lots
and lots of times before they got there. So that
was... kind of the intention here what happened
was interesting they all kind of converged around
the final piece lots of times so they can't they
knew it was in this area but they couldn't quite
find the piece so that was yeah it was a very
interesting game to play with them how cool i'm
definitely going to be going checking out what
i can do in a mirror space after this um thanks
kuva that's really cool i have one other question
for everyone my question is about when has it
not worked when have you like tried to do something
and it's just gone flat I have a classic example
can I tell you my the little examples I was working
in an obviously organization that will remain
nameless but I can tell you they were in the
dentistry industry we have a few games that we
put into our sessions and one of them is a game
where people are blindfolded and the first thing
I have to say when playing that game is does
anyone not want to wear the blindfold because
it's fine if you don't but I want people to feel
safe so if that's if you've got any vertigo or
whatever or you just don't want to do it that's
fine so a couple of people sat out in this particular
session they weren't all dentists but people
who sell the dentistry we tried to play the game
but there was one individual in the game who
was just he He was very competitive and I think
he realised early on that it was quite tough
and it is a really challenging game and that's
all in the brief. It's really hard to solve.
Most teams take at least 30 to 35 minutes. You're
going to have to use your powers of communication.
And his negative mindset was very much like,
we are never going to do this, guys. We are never
going to do it. And it was really interesting
to see how toxic that mindset was because other
people in the team tried to stand up to him and
say, no, we think we can do it. But his voice
was so dominant and so powerful. that they ended
up completely failing and not going anywhere
near to solving the task so but it's supposed
to be a fun engaging learning activity where
teams learn the behaviors that serve them well
and the behaviors that don't and so although
the game failed and i and i it was really interesting
in the debrief this particular person I said
to him you know what do you think your impact
was on the team when you said those things and
he tried to swerve the question and sort of said
but it's a really silly game Elaine you should
never have had us doing that what's the point
of this and I'm like let's let's just stay with
the question what do you think your impact was
on the team when you behaved in the way that
you did and he refused to answer and I'm a bit
cross with myself because I had an opportunity
to ask the team what was the impact of his behavior
on your overall performance but that felt a bit
exposing for him so I backed away from that opportunity
I don't know whether I'm happy with that or not
but that that was an intended piece of fun that
usually it's the only time I've played that game
with teams hundreds of times it only failed the
one time um and that was really interesting the
impact of someone else's mindset on team performance
I don't know how about you Jess I've had I've
had occasions I mean thinking back to the COVID
times being on screen and people switch their
cameras off by doing an exercise and get people
to get into their body and then they their cameras
go off and that's when you know you don't want
to call people out because very good reason why
so you kind of carry on but then when you've
got the black square other people doing something
I think that's when it it can feel uncomfortable
and that hasn't happened very often to be fair
but I think they they're that would or they would
be occasions where it's felt like or maybe the
energy is not quite right here how about you
Kiva have you got an example yeah I've got a
couple I've got one where I was designing the
learning for it was a mortgage lending company
and they had a major legislative change that
they were facing. And I came up with this great
idea that they're going to have a battle where
they're going to talk about the pros and cons
of this new change. So we got a bunch of them
into the session. And these guys are very high
earning, the top ones especially, and very, very
careful with their time because every minute
is money to them, basically. So they got into
this session and we were like, yep, we're going
to do a battle. We're going to talk about the
pros and cons. And they were like, just tell
us about the change. We don't want this. I'm
not allowed to swear. We don't want this. Just
tell us about the change. Tell us now. Like,
no fun. We don't have time for fun. So I think
that that was really interesting and important
because I think. What I take away from that is
that if someone's actually really engaged and
interested in what you're teaching them in the
content itself, gamification or fun can actually
feel like a distraction. and feel like it's getting
in the way and wasting time where you could actually
just be focused on the topic itself, which I
think is really important. The other one is probably
when you're doing those compliance trainings
that they force you to do when you do an induction.
I can see you smiling there, Jess. And then some
genius learning designer has decided, yeah, we're
going to make this fun. We're going to turn it
into a game. And then instead of just being able
to get through the thing quickly, it takes longer
and it feels contrived. And it also distracts.
Like I remember doing one that was. some kind
of quiz show or I don't know it was some fun
rapper around the outside but it actually didn't
make it more fun to me it just meant that I felt
like I was a bit distracted by it and um and
it was taking longer yeah okie dokie I think
it's probably time for us to wrap up ladies but
it's been an absolute joy to spend this morning
with you and have this conversation I've loved
it I've loved talking about fun let's do more
of it let's see if we can bring a little bit
more a little bit more joy into workplaces I
would love to have more fun in the workplace
100 % so yes as much as I can possibly get I'm
all for that yeah and I want my learners to have
a good experience when they're they're learning
from us and so I think that yeah it's super important
and the more sticky we can make our learning
the more impactful we can make it then i think
that that's that's our job done right yeah it
was wonderful to meet you both and yeah let's
take the fun into the day did you have fun listening
to this episode the idea of forced fun is a bit
of an anathema to me and it was brilliant to
listen to experts in the topic produce such an
interesting conversation do let us know your
thoughts and perhaps share some of your ideas
a very special thank you to jess elaine and kuva
for their insight into this topic and for their
time in making such a brilliant recording I know
you'll want to connect with them afterwards and
their details are in the show notes, along with
information about how to connect with us here
at Women Talking About Learning. Please do remember
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we'll see you again soon.