WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.339 Before we start, a quick invitation. I'm hosting 00:00:03.339 --> 00:00:05.519 the Podcast Learning Festival in London on the 00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:08.580 26th of February. It's all about how podcasting 00:00:08.580 --> 00:00:10.560 and learning work together, and if you're in 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:12.900 L &D, training, or just fascinated by audio as 00:00:12.900 --> 00:00:15.820 a medium, we'd love to see you there. One day, 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:18.179 hands -on sessions and some amazing speakers. 00:00:18.579 --> 00:00:21.179 You'll leave with practical skills and real insights 00:00:21.179 --> 00:00:23.920 that you can use. Tickets are available now at 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:27.940 podcastlearningfest .live. That's podcastlearningfest 00:00:27.940 --> 00:00:31.160 .live. Get them now and they're at a special 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:34.619 founder prize before the 31st of October. Okay, 00:00:34.740 --> 00:00:49.240 into the episode. Hello everyone and welcome 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:52.000 to this episode of the fun one of the Women Talking 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:55.950 About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. It 00:00:55.950 --> 00:00:57.990 always seems as if we're looking for ways to 00:00:57.990 --> 00:01:01.310 make learning and development fun. This might 00:01:01.310 --> 00:01:04.329 involve using methods like gamification, storytelling, 00:01:04.810 --> 00:01:08.670 interactive activities and creative content to 00:01:08.670 --> 00:01:10.609 try and increase employee engagement and knowledge 00:01:10.609 --> 00:01:13.829 retention. To delve further into this area, we 00:01:13.829 --> 00:01:17.010 have three great guests to discuss this. Our 00:01:17.010 --> 00:01:20.620 first guest is Jess Rogers. Jess is a leadership 00:01:20.620 --> 00:01:22.579 coach with almost two decades of experience, 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:25.819 helping ambitious, values -driven senior leaders 00:01:25.819 --> 00:01:28.859 find their voice, lead authentically and advance 00:01:28.859 --> 00:01:31.780 their careers without compromise. She's coached 00:01:31.780 --> 00:01:35.459 directors, VPs, chiefs of staff, senior council 00:01:35.459 --> 00:01:37.920 and others who care deeply about their teams 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.519 but often feel unseen or pressured to fit conventional 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:44.400 leadership models. Our second guest is Elaine 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:47.790 Gosden. Elaine is CEO and founder of Blue New 00:01:47.790 --> 00:01:50.409 Consulting, a leadership development consultancy 00:01:50.409 --> 00:01:53.310 specialising in organisational growth. Driven 00:01:53.310 --> 00:01:55.989 by her values and belief that life is too short 00:01:55.989 --> 00:01:58.450 not to make a difference, she connects the right 00:01:58.450 --> 00:02:00.609 people to the right solutions while enabling 00:02:00.609 --> 00:02:04.010 others to be their best selves. Our third guest 00:02:04.010 --> 00:02:07.349 is Dr Kuva Jacobs. As co -founder of Emergent 00:02:07.349 --> 00:02:10.629 Learning, Kuva is a learning strategist and designer 00:02:10.629 --> 00:02:13.590 fascinated by the sweet spot between fun and 00:02:13.590 --> 00:02:16.520 effectiveness. Together with her award -winning 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:19.340 learning design team, she explores how gamification 00:02:19.340 --> 00:02:22.259 can deepen engagement and drive performance, 00:02:22.379 --> 00:02:25.240 from role plays and characterisation to humour 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:27.379 and chatterbox -style decision -making tools. 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:30.960 This is an awesome conversation. Recorded in 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:33.939 September of 2025, this is women talking about 00:02:33.939 --> 00:02:38.340 learning. This is Jess, Elaine and Kuva talking 00:02:38.340 --> 00:02:43.180 about fun. So I think I was the one who came 00:02:43.180 --> 00:02:45.789 up with this. topic, which is the fun one. And 00:02:45.789 --> 00:02:48.050 it's something that's quite close to my heart 00:02:48.050 --> 00:02:51.009 because I'm obviously very passionate about learning. 00:02:51.229 --> 00:02:56.509 And for me, I feel that if the learners can have 00:02:56.509 --> 00:03:00.490 fun while they're learning, not only does it 00:03:00.490 --> 00:03:03.009 make it a better experience for them, but it 00:03:03.009 --> 00:03:04.969 also means that they're going to remember things 00:03:04.969 --> 00:03:06.849 better as well. The learning is going to have 00:03:06.849 --> 00:03:10.509 more impact. So I think that that's a really 00:03:10.509 --> 00:03:15.129 great aim. But where it gets interesting is people's 00:03:15.129 --> 00:03:18.590 ideas of fun are really different. So there's 00:03:18.590 --> 00:03:22.849 no one remedy that we can put into our training 00:03:22.849 --> 00:03:24.830 that's going to make everyone happy and think 00:03:24.830 --> 00:03:26.449 that it's fun. Sometimes you're going to have 00:03:26.449 --> 00:03:29.009 different reactions. So I thought that that was 00:03:29.009 --> 00:03:31.569 a really interesting topic to discuss because 00:03:31.569 --> 00:03:35.280 I think that we need to... go about this with 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.979 a little bit of caution. So I guess I would love 00:03:37.979 --> 00:03:41.419 to hear your stories about how you've used fun 00:03:41.419 --> 00:03:45.280 in learning when it's worked and when you've 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:48.659 hit some challenges as well. Can I? I'll jump 00:03:48.659 --> 00:03:52.460 in here. I agree with you, Kuva. I think that 00:03:52.460 --> 00:03:59.039 fun is a really good and important facet for 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:00.960 learning, definitely, especially when you're 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:04.449 working with groups. But you're right. Fun looks 00:04:04.449 --> 00:04:07.490 different to different people. And I think when 00:04:07.490 --> 00:04:10.909 you bring in people's lived experience and people's 00:04:10.909 --> 00:04:14.090 backgrounds as well, their perception of fun 00:04:14.090 --> 00:04:18.069 really can change. And so you have to be quite 00:04:18.069 --> 00:04:21.930 careful as a learning practitioner not to just 00:04:21.930 --> 00:04:23.870 assume that we're going to do this and it's going 00:04:23.870 --> 00:04:25.629 to be fun and everybody's going to love it and 00:04:25.629 --> 00:04:28.329 it's going to be great. It's about bringing some 00:04:28.329 --> 00:04:31.589 connectedness. into it as well because when you 00:04:31.589 --> 00:04:34.750 build those connections on a different level 00:04:34.750 --> 00:04:36.649 when you're working in a group a learning group 00:04:36.649 --> 00:04:40.050 I think that's when you can then sort of tease 00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:42.810 out the fun and almost in a in a strange way 00:04:42.810 --> 00:04:47.009 fun sort of manifests itself naturally rather 00:04:47.009 --> 00:04:49.029 than it being something that you have to create 00:04:49.029 --> 00:04:54.589 absolutely yeah I had a session a couple weeks 00:04:54.589 --> 00:04:59.000 ago and the topic was really great we were teaching 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:03.500 about e -commerce and we were talking about brand 00:05:03.500 --> 00:05:06.360 and styling and things like that and in the chat 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:10.620 one of the participants started grabbing photos 00:05:10.620 --> 00:05:15.199 of another participant and then using AI to dress 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:18.220 them in different costumes and then putting that 00:05:18.220 --> 00:05:20.519 into the chat and it was linking back to what 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:22.160 we were saying because it was all about brand 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:25.660 and so they were having a lot of fun just laughing 00:05:25.660 --> 00:05:27.500 at this chat and the things that were popping 00:05:27.500 --> 00:05:29.899 out but at the same time they were still listening 00:05:29.899 --> 00:05:33.319 to us and so it made the session a lot more enjoyable 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:36.759 which was great and then it also gave us permission 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.680 to have a bit of play in that session as well 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:42.629 which was really nice. hmm it's really interesting 00:05:42.629 --> 00:05:44.709 isn't it like even the word fun and I love what 00:05:44.709 --> 00:05:47.509 you said just about perception um because like 00:05:47.509 --> 00:05:50.730 one of my personal values is is joy and I I just 00:05:50.730 --> 00:05:53.970 think the world needs more joyful workplaces 00:05:53.970 --> 00:05:56.230 if we're not if we're not experiencing joy of 00:05:56.230 --> 00:05:58.550 some kind and that's different for everybody 00:05:58.550 --> 00:06:00.930 um whilst we're at work then we're never going 00:06:00.930 --> 00:06:04.060 to access like any level of true performance 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:07.199 or high performance so for me like the attraction 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:10.040 of coming on this particular podcast was about 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:12.319 actually me having a little bit of access to 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:14.860 joy by talking to other women who want to talk 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:20.379 about joy and fun at work um but also to to really 00:06:20.379 --> 00:06:23.300 you know hear some exciting things about how 00:06:23.300 --> 00:06:25.920 you're making stuff fun so yeah I guess Jess 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:28.939 what drew you to coming on this particular one? 00:06:29.769 --> 00:06:32.990 It's not dissimilar to you, Elaine. Joy is a 00:06:32.990 --> 00:06:38.069 really key thing, I think, for life. And I always 00:06:38.069 --> 00:06:41.350 say joy is a feeling. You know, people talk about 00:06:41.350 --> 00:06:45.269 wanting to be happy. But happiness requires sort 00:06:45.269 --> 00:06:48.410 of the circumstances to be right. Whereas joy 00:06:48.410 --> 00:06:50.730 is what you cultivate in yourself. So even if 00:06:50.730 --> 00:06:53.879 the circumstances aren't. great you sort of you 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:56.420 know you have that mindset you have that hope 00:06:56.420 --> 00:07:00.360 and that's what brings joy and I think um when 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:03.639 I when I saw fun I yeah I saw the link to joy 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:05.980 just like yourself but also I thought you know 00:07:05.980 --> 00:07:09.519 so many times we um go on these business podcasts 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:11.379 we listen to these business podcasts and they 00:07:11.379 --> 00:07:14.139 have these sort of these really heavy topics 00:07:14.139 --> 00:07:18.319 yeah there was a lightness that came with the 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:22.379 fun one and I thought yeah I want to bring some 00:07:22.379 --> 00:07:25.579 lightness into work and into learning because 00:07:25.579 --> 00:07:28.779 that's how we do our best work, isn't it? When 00:07:28.779 --> 00:07:32.740 we are in that place, that space of fun and joy, 00:07:32.980 --> 00:07:36.560 the work becomes somewhat easy, isn't it? Yeah, 00:07:36.620 --> 00:07:39.740 exactly. Akiva, can I ask you, I'm guessing for 00:07:39.740 --> 00:07:42.600 you, did you spot that gap and that's the reason 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.620 why you suggested the fun one or what was your 00:07:45.620 --> 00:07:48.250 motivation for suggesting the fun one? Sorry, 00:07:48.329 --> 00:07:50.410 before I answer that question, when you guys 00:07:50.410 --> 00:07:52.290 are talking about joy, I can't help but think 00:07:52.290 --> 00:07:54.970 about the movie Inside Out. I've got that image 00:07:54.970 --> 00:07:57.329 in my brain. I don't know if you've both seen 00:07:57.329 --> 00:08:00.370 it. And then sadness as well. And, you know, 00:08:00.389 --> 00:08:03.029 you see her dragging along the ground and she's 00:08:03.029 --> 00:08:04.930 not able to do anything. And then you've got 00:08:04.930 --> 00:08:07.430 joy. And, you know, there's someone who I work 00:08:07.430 --> 00:08:09.410 with who, you know, reminds me a little bit of 00:08:09.410 --> 00:08:11.959 her and she's really active. and always getting 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:15.439 stuff done and it's fantastic so yeah there's 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:18.120 definitely an attitude that you want to cultivate 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:23.680 right definitely so yeah sorry going back to 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:25.500 your question Elaine yeah so I was just saying 00:08:25.500 --> 00:08:28.560 what motivated you to to suggest this one like 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.040 did you spot it as a gap in the like I'm just 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:33.299 curious for you like where did that come from 00:08:33.299 --> 00:08:39.080 uh I've had I've written um Quite a few LinkedIn 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:43.139 posts and then from the LinkedIn posts drawn 00:08:43.139 --> 00:08:46.559 out blog posts as well around the topic of gamification. 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.200 Okay. And I find it like such an interesting 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:54.860 topic because it is so, you know, there's so 00:08:54.860 --> 00:08:57.700 much controversy around it, around the fact that 00:08:57.700 --> 00:08:59.840 sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:03.039 so I find that really fascinating. How can you 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:06.200 find the path forward where it actually. lands 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:10.840 and fits um and you know doesn't fall flat which 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:14.419 I've seen both in my experience and yeah in um 00:09:14.419 --> 00:09:18.059 one of my inspirations was when I'm a parent 00:09:18.059 --> 00:09:22.340 as well so I've got um two daughters and I as 00:09:22.340 --> 00:09:26.080 a parent didn't want to be too I guess aggressive 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.000 like I wanted my children to behave but at the 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:31.879 same time I didn't want to be this strict bossy 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:36.269 parent and I went to this uh session about it 00:09:36.269 --> 00:09:39.129 was called playful discipline and it's all about 00:09:39.129 --> 00:09:42.669 how to use play to to help with your children 00:09:42.669 --> 00:09:44.769 and there's some really interesting concepts 00:09:44.769 --> 00:09:47.549 in that there's a book about that as well um 00:09:47.549 --> 00:09:53.090 andrew and um and yeah i i was quite fascinated 00:09:53.090 --> 00:09:55.110 in that and i tried out all these different concepts 00:09:55.110 --> 00:09:59.000 and it was funny because sometimes they don't 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:02.120 want to play like for example I had this game 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:04.720 which was clip race to try and get them to clip 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:07.620 their seat belts in the car simple right but 00:10:07.620 --> 00:10:10.179 then they're like no I don't want to play clip 00:10:10.179 --> 00:10:12.799 race anymore because they didn't like that feeling 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:16.899 of competitiveness of the game the pressure that 00:10:16.899 --> 00:10:19.700 the game was actually putting on them they didn't 00:10:19.700 --> 00:10:21.879 want to have to you know compete with each other 00:10:21.879 --> 00:10:25.159 so I found that a really interesting component 00:10:25.159 --> 00:10:28.779 that when we add this level of competition maybe 00:10:28.779 --> 00:10:33.379 people don't respond well to that yeah it comes 00:10:33.379 --> 00:10:34.759 back to right what you were saying for me at 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:36.799 the beginning cuva about everyone's experiencing 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:40.559 fun differently and this this concept of forced 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:44.399 fun within a learning environment it really really 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:47.970 really puts people off so it's something really 00:10:47.970 --> 00:10:51.110 interesting to poke around in like how have you 00:10:51.110 --> 00:10:53.309 how have you guys experienced that in sessions 00:10:53.309 --> 00:10:55.210 that you're running and delivering like when 00:10:55.210 --> 00:10:57.210 is when has it kind of worked really well and 00:10:57.210 --> 00:10:59.809 when is it when is the incorporating fun really 00:10:59.809 --> 00:11:02.409 fell on its face I think um it's just you've 00:11:02.409 --> 00:11:05.190 made me think Elaine you're right that it can 00:11:05.190 --> 00:11:08.629 turn people off even though the fun is fun yeah 00:11:08.629 --> 00:11:12.110 but when if you go into a space or in my experience 00:11:12.110 --> 00:11:13.789 you go into a space and you say now we're going 00:11:13.789 --> 00:11:19.419 to do a game You do visibly feel and see people's 00:11:19.419 --> 00:11:21.960 faces and feel the energy kind of shrink back 00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:23.740 because people immediately think you're going 00:11:23.740 --> 00:11:25.659 to put me on the spot or you're going to force 00:11:25.659 --> 00:11:28.779 me to do something. And particularly those who 00:11:28.779 --> 00:11:30.820 have introverted tendencies, they immediately, 00:11:31.139 --> 00:11:35.600 it raises something in them. And that's back 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.779 to the point, I think, where I really think when 00:11:39.779 --> 00:11:42.559 people feel connected. they have fun so actually 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:45.519 it doesn't have to be the thing necessarily it's 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:49.019 the energy that's created and it's when people 00:11:49.019 --> 00:11:52.860 are able to feel connected feel that they can 00:11:52.860 --> 00:11:55.519 then be playful feel that they can then sort 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:59.620 of give themselves give more of themselves into 00:11:59.620 --> 00:12:02.559 the situation or into the environment that the 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:05.820 fun manifests itself quite naturally I mean, 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:07.080 that's what's happened in my experience. And 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:09.320 even, you know, sort of in traditional training, 00:12:09.379 --> 00:12:11.279 you do an icebreaker at the beginning. Yeah, 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:19.840 cringe. As soon as you say icebreaker, it's meant 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:23.940 to be fun. Yeah. Yeah, cringe. So it's almost 00:12:23.940 --> 00:12:26.620 finding different ways to do icebreakers without 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:28.899 calling them icebreakers, just to bring everybody 00:12:28.899 --> 00:12:31.000 into the room. And sometimes it can be as simple 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:34.419 as asking a question as opposed to. playing a 00:12:34.419 --> 00:12:38.580 game that brings that element of connectedness 00:12:38.580 --> 00:12:41.820 and fun to it. I think use of humour is another 00:12:41.820 --> 00:12:44.279 thing that's really important as well. Like how 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:48.360 can we use humour effectively for fun, for shifting 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:52.200 away from that really dry, boring content into 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.190 something that's funny and interesting. Just 00:12:55.190 --> 00:12:57.169 going back to that same course, we've done lots 00:12:57.169 --> 00:12:59.309 of courses, but somehow I'm gravitating back 00:12:59.309 --> 00:13:02.450 to that. I added this character in to talk about 00:13:02.450 --> 00:13:05.029 learner personas. And instead of just putting 00:13:05.029 --> 00:13:10.750 a dry persona in, I had Jack Tyson and he's a 00:13:10.750 --> 00:13:15.149 chainsaw guy. And he is out on the farm in Australia 00:13:15.149 --> 00:13:20.629 and he's got me ute and I chuck me chainsaw in 00:13:20.629 --> 00:13:24.279 the back. And, you know, it just had this. that 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:27.559 when everyone saw that slide, they laughed and 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:29.379 they had this really positive reaction to it. 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:31.860 But I could have just, you know, put a standard 00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:34.919 28 -year -old influencer who does blah, blah, 00:13:34.940 --> 00:13:38.100 blah. Instead, I'd created this fun character. 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.600 So sometimes things like that, a little bit of 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.820 storytelling can really set the tone as well. 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:47.039 Elaine, I've just noticed there's a question. 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:52.379 How can we be more connected? without this forced 00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:54.879 phone and i wonder what's your experience i think 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:57.340 it's really interesting isn't it like for me 00:13:57.340 --> 00:14:00.639 the skill of the facilitator is to present the 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.740 connection opportunity rather than the agenda 00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:07.639 item so it's like moving away from hey now now 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:10.879 kids we're gonna because it's that to me and 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:13.320 i've i've had this for years this debate in my 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.700 head about am i a facilitator of great experiences 00:14:16.700 --> 00:14:21.120 or am i a trainer and and i personally really 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.820 dislike the word trainer or training I don't 00:14:23.820 --> 00:14:26.360 know why I've never really sat down and reflected 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:29.200 on it too much but that that question sort of 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:30.919 helps me to understand well actually maybe what 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:34.120 I don't like is that the role of a trainer is 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:38.120 to give this to you whereas the role of a facilitator 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:40.600 feels more like person -centered learning so 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:42.799 it's more like I'm meeting you where you are 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:44.980 you will meet the learning where you are and 00:14:44.980 --> 00:14:49.019 if we can make that a bit fun um through some 00:14:49.019 --> 00:14:52.639 clever use of activities that doesn't feel like 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:55.139 we're going in this direction and now we're segwaying 00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:56.759 over here because we know it's time for an energy 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:00.720 change. I feel like that's the skill of the facilitator 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:04.200 is to read the room well enough to know that 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:07.259 something is needed, but also to respect the 00:15:07.259 --> 00:15:08.559 fact that you're probably going to have quite 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:12.779 a diverse group with different needs. So I don't 00:15:12.779 --> 00:15:14.919 know that I'm ever there yet. I think I'm still 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:16.820 experimenting in all of the sessions that I'm 00:15:16.820 --> 00:15:19.929 running around how do you... How do you stop 00:15:19.929 --> 00:15:23.649 that kind of, oh, and now it's time for this. 00:15:23.710 --> 00:15:27.070 But yeah, I don't know. I'm still working on 00:15:27.070 --> 00:15:29.470 it after 22 years in the training room. I think 00:15:29.470 --> 00:15:32.870 that's the beauty, isn't it, of being a facilitator, 00:15:32.870 --> 00:15:35.850 that you don't know what you're going to say. 00:15:35.909 --> 00:15:38.730 Yes, you have your material that you want to 00:15:38.730 --> 00:15:42.940 share, but there's something. quite magical about 00:15:42.940 --> 00:15:45.639 meeting all of your participants where they are 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:48.159 so you go into that space knowing that for example 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:51.820 this is an inclusive leader uh program and this 00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:53.720 is this is what we're delivering today as part 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:56.240 of that but actually feeling what people are 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:58.480 bringing into the room as well and sometimes 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:01.580 thinking that or getting them to name that starts 00:16:01.580 --> 00:16:05.259 to build that environment straight away of trust 00:16:05.259 --> 00:16:09.019 of learning as well and i i actually that's that's 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:11.580 part of the the job that i love the most that 00:16:11.580 --> 00:16:13.779 kind of and i said that's the coach in me sort 00:16:13.779 --> 00:16:15.679 of just meeting clients where they are so being 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.279 able to remember and sort of and see what comes 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:20.440 into the room and sometimes yeah it can be challenging 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:25.399 but more often than not suspending to some degree 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:29.059 what i have to deliver just being there is where 00:16:29.059 --> 00:16:32.759 the magic happens I agree. And I also think too, 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:35.019 like Andrew's asking us about fun and I sort 00:16:35.019 --> 00:16:36.620 of think, you know, let's stay with the fun. 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:38.759 Like some of the things that we've done is like 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:41.740 bring like fancy dress, which sounds like ultra 00:16:41.740 --> 00:16:45.419 cringe to some, but we're doing like a themed 00:16:45.419 --> 00:16:50.059 gamification of a thing. So like it's all metaphors 00:16:50.059 --> 00:16:52.179 and analogies, but we might be taking a group 00:16:52.179 --> 00:16:54.080 through, let's say they're at the beginning or 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:55.820 the end of a leadership development journey. 00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:58.120 like we're metaphorically going to take them 00:16:58.120 --> 00:16:59.399 through the desert. The desert is going to have 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:01.360 some challenges. And so as they go through the 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.220 desert, they're going to come across problems 00:17:03.220 --> 00:17:05.160 and objects and stuff. And we've got games that 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:07.160 we play that are like half day, full day games 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:09.400 with them. Not our games. We're bringing in a 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:12.319 licensed team to do that for us, but it just 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:15.019 works so brilliantly. But we'll turn up with 00:17:15.019 --> 00:17:17.200 all our desert gear on so that everyone immediately, 00:17:17.339 --> 00:17:19.240 it's like, it's not like, hey guys, we're going 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:21.920 to have some fun now. The signaling is different. 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:24.700 The signaling is like, this is different. This 00:17:24.700 --> 00:17:26.769 isn't. This isn't like strap yourselves in for 00:17:26.769 --> 00:17:29.329 a facilitated learning session and some PowerPoints. 00:17:29.329 --> 00:17:31.109 This is an experience. You're going into the 00:17:31.109 --> 00:17:33.109 desert. So, yeah, I don't know about you guys. 00:17:33.170 --> 00:17:36.450 What have you done to really bring in the fun 00:17:36.450 --> 00:17:39.890 and the humor and the joy, I guess? I'm just 00:17:39.890 --> 00:17:42.730 remembering, actually, this was slightly different. 00:17:42.869 --> 00:17:44.829 I went on a retreat at the beginning of the year 00:17:44.829 --> 00:17:48.549 and there was dancing was what was brought into 00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:52.029 it. into our into part of our um retreat experience 00:17:52.029 --> 00:17:54.490 so it wasn't because it was still a learning 00:17:54.490 --> 00:17:57.150 experience even though it was a retreat and when 00:17:57.150 --> 00:18:01.450 the facilitator mentioned music and movement 00:18:01.450 --> 00:18:06.170 the initial response was oh that we had to stand 00:18:06.170 --> 00:18:09.940 up but actually you know once somebody started 00:18:09.940 --> 00:18:12.019 started with a silly move and everybody started 00:18:12.019 --> 00:18:15.400 laughing all of a sudden it released something 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:17.700 i don't there is there's a chemical isn't there 00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:20.940 i guess when that laughter i think or serotonin 00:18:20.940 --> 00:18:25.119 it was one of those yeah It was amazing the difference 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.319 it made. And by the end of the session, it wasn't 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:29.640 actually a particularly long session, this part 00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:32.599 of the retreat. We were in fits of laughter. 00:18:32.619 --> 00:18:35.420 We were all doing a catwalk. There were pictures 00:18:35.420 --> 00:18:38.539 of everybody, you know, busting their dance moves. 00:18:39.019 --> 00:18:43.119 And it was just amazing the power of that humour, 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:47.500 the power of that. The silliness almost. Absolutely, 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:50.319 the silliness. You know, nobody was trying to 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:52.589 be the best dancer. It was just that. movement 00:18:52.589 --> 00:18:55.650 of one's body and it just opened us all up for 00:18:55.650 --> 00:18:57.630 what was to come next so I think that there's 00:18:57.630 --> 00:19:00.990 something about bringing movement into it and 00:19:00.990 --> 00:19:03.349 people letting allow people to use their bodies 00:19:03.349 --> 00:19:05.150 so to your point Elaine you said about dressing 00:19:05.150 --> 00:19:07.950 up and you know going through the day and there's 00:19:07.950 --> 00:19:09.509 there's something about it's using your full 00:19:09.509 --> 00:19:11.910 bodies and it's not just the cerebral thing it's 00:19:11.910 --> 00:19:14.069 it's everything and I think that's an experience 00:19:14.069 --> 00:19:17.730 yeah yeah and sometimes it's even just the smaller 00:19:17.730 --> 00:19:20.029 things like I was running a session um about 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.279 designing learning and I got everyone to stand 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:26.259 up and I said to them okay I want everyone actually 00:19:26.259 --> 00:19:29.460 I used a voice I was like okay now we are all 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:31.839 ballerinas we need to make our arms nice and 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:35.160 straight and then And then everyone pointed their 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.279 arms and I said, okay, now we are auditioning 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:40.819 for a ballet. I'm going to choose the people 00:19:40.819 --> 00:19:43.700 who have very nice straight arms. And then everyone, 00:19:43.819 --> 00:19:45.759 you know, stood with their arms nice and straight. 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:47.700 And then I said, okay, now we are going to be 00:19:47.700 --> 00:19:52.960 the zombies. And then everyone, okay, like everyone 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.200 changed so that they look like zombies. And I 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:59.140 said, okay, your arms are not straight anymore. 00:19:59.980 --> 00:20:02.140 You know, I sort of played up the zombie thing 00:20:02.140 --> 00:20:04.539 a little bit at first. I was like. great, you 00:20:04.539 --> 00:20:07.740 guys are looking great as zombies. But I said, 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:09.859 your arms are not straight anymore, but you've 00:20:09.859 --> 00:20:12.460 done this intentionally. So you knew what the 00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:15.779 rules are and you choose to break them intentionally. 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:18.680 So we want to do the same thing with learning 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:21.220 as well. You need to know what the rules are 00:20:21.220 --> 00:20:24.160 when you're designing good learning, but it's 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:25.940 okay to break them as well, as long as you're 00:20:25.940 --> 00:20:29.269 breaking them intentionally. So I just used that 00:20:29.269 --> 00:20:32.970 metaphor to help them to understand that concept. 00:20:33.490 --> 00:20:36.829 And it also meant that in the middle of this 00:20:36.829 --> 00:20:39.730 full day session, they got to stand up, they 00:20:39.730 --> 00:20:41.630 got to use their bodies, they got to have a little 00:20:41.630 --> 00:20:43.890 bit of a giggle before they sat back down. So 00:20:43.890 --> 00:20:46.369 things like that, even small things, I think 00:20:46.369 --> 00:20:49.049 can really help to change a session as well when 00:20:49.049 --> 00:20:51.670 we can think about them. Yeah, we have a lovely 00:20:51.670 --> 00:20:53.470 little exercise that we throw into one of our 00:20:53.470 --> 00:20:55.630 leadership programs when we're talking about... 00:20:56.740 --> 00:20:59.059 and the importance of vision and leaderships 00:20:59.059 --> 00:21:00.880 and, you know, knowing, I guess it goes back 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:02.579 to Covey's kind of, you know, beginning with 00:21:02.579 --> 00:21:07.400 the end in mind. And we sort of do a little bit 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:09.759 of input, but then it sounds really similar, 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:11.940 Kuva. We get everyone to stand up in a space 00:21:11.940 --> 00:21:14.660 where they can't be touched. And then we ask 00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:16.579 them all to close their eyes and then just to 00:21:16.579 --> 00:21:19.240 think about which way is north. And we have them 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:21.529 all with their eyes closed. point to the direction 00:21:21.529 --> 00:21:24.730 that they think is north and then they open their 00:21:24.730 --> 00:21:27.589 eyes and look around the room and of course unless 00:21:27.589 --> 00:21:29.970 it's really clear or unless everyone is pointing 00:21:29.970 --> 00:21:31.690 in a different direction and you think gosh if 00:21:31.690 --> 00:21:33.630 we were an intact team and sometimes they are 00:21:33.630 --> 00:21:36.009 but if we were an intact team we're a team of 00:21:36.009 --> 00:21:38.569 leaders and this is our This is our perception 00:21:38.569 --> 00:21:41.450 of where we're all going. Just look at the differences 00:21:41.450 --> 00:21:43.950 that we have. And again, it's just an opportunity 00:21:43.950 --> 00:21:45.609 to get everyone up off their seats kind of thinking. 00:21:45.630 --> 00:21:47.509 And it's so funny because everyone's like, whoa, 00:21:47.670 --> 00:21:51.250 we're so wrong. We're so incorrect with that. 00:21:51.289 --> 00:21:54.210 But the metaphor is really strong. So maybe it's 00:21:54.210 --> 00:21:57.769 the metaphors that we need. And even just that 00:21:57.769 --> 00:22:00.769 experience as well, like closing your eyes in 00:22:00.769 --> 00:22:03.589 the middle of a session, standing up as a group. 00:22:04.220 --> 00:22:06.720 instead of just sitting in a room and watching 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:10.019 someone at the front speak like that's so different 00:22:10.019 --> 00:22:14.619 and so that in itself really changes the experience 00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:17.839 for people I remember a few years ago and so 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:21.559 you know the Amy Cuddy power pose yes love that 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:25.759 um a female leadership development program and 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:27.960 one of the things like saying to everybody right 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:31.019 so let's all stand up now and do do you are your 00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:32.960 power pose so some people it was the hands on 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:35.460 the hips for some people it was you know putting 00:22:35.460 --> 00:22:38.319 their wrists down whatever it might be but there's 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:41.279 something again it's that just one thing stand 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:43.519 up and do so we talk about the power pose the 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:45.819 reason for the power pose the research behind 00:22:45.819 --> 00:22:48.099 it and it's like okay now we want everybody to 00:22:48.099 --> 00:22:51.299 do their power pose and doing it in person was 00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:53.400 really powerful and then you know the pandemic 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:55.440 happened and we were all on doing lots of things 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.960 online and it was just as powerful doing it online 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:02.589 actually you know getting Wow. And so I'm going 00:23:02.589 --> 00:23:04.470 to take a screenshot and, you know, just for 00:23:04.470 --> 00:23:06.170 the purposes of this group. So you will have 00:23:06.170 --> 00:23:08.170 a record of it, if that's okay. You can switch 00:23:08.170 --> 00:23:09.890 your camera off if you want, whatever. But people 00:23:09.890 --> 00:23:11.869 very rarely did switch their cameras off. But 00:23:11.869 --> 00:23:15.329 it's just doing something like just a pose. It's 00:23:15.329 --> 00:23:16.769 similar, I guess, to what you're saying, Elaine, 00:23:16.849 --> 00:23:19.309 when you stand up and face north. It's doing 00:23:19.309 --> 00:23:23.190 a pose, your pose, that makes you feel powerful. 00:23:23.549 --> 00:23:26.309 And it made people feel powerful and it got them 00:23:26.309 --> 00:23:29.750 into their bodies and got them. And also. It 00:23:29.750 --> 00:23:32.430 makes people laugh. Yeah. So, you know, it's 00:23:32.430 --> 00:23:35.930 a relatively serious topic, you know, female 00:23:35.930 --> 00:23:39.710 leadership and, you know, improving female leadership 00:23:39.710 --> 00:23:42.089 in sort of environments where, you know, they're 00:23:42.089 --> 00:23:44.289 trying to increase their visibility of female 00:23:44.289 --> 00:23:46.490 leaders. And then you bring this element into 00:23:46.490 --> 00:23:49.069 it of fun. Yeah. And people immediately feel 00:23:49.069 --> 00:23:51.829 them relax and say, actually, it doesn't have 00:23:51.829 --> 00:23:54.250 to be this serious thing. Yes, it's serious. 00:23:54.349 --> 00:23:56.910 Yes, it's important. But actually. It can also 00:23:56.910 --> 00:23:59.250 be fun. Yeah. And it's that kind of energy change, 00:23:59.390 --> 00:24:00.829 isn't it? I guess we're looking for, because 00:24:00.829 --> 00:24:03.490 if we are working with a group of whoever, leaders 00:24:03.490 --> 00:24:06.049 or people, doesn't matter. But if we're working 00:24:06.049 --> 00:24:08.849 with them for a long time, over a series of hours 00:24:08.849 --> 00:24:12.190 or days, you know, we need to find those moments 00:24:12.190 --> 00:24:15.430 to shift the energy, to keep them all engaged 00:24:15.430 --> 00:24:18.549 and kind of grooving and whatever. But I think 00:24:18.549 --> 00:24:19.670 it's something we need to pay more attention 00:24:19.670 --> 00:24:21.349 to. Particularly, you mentioned the dreaded C 00:24:21.349 --> 00:24:25.799 word, Jess, like since COVID, like I think. people's 00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:29.039 expectation of a of a learning environment and 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:31.779 what's fun is a bit different now I don't know 00:24:31.779 --> 00:24:34.359 I don't know are you guys seeing any changes 00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:37.799 in terms of how people are experiencing fun in 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.359 learning post -covid that's a really loaded question 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.099 for me because I think I've got a view but what's 00:24:44.099 --> 00:24:45.839 your what's your view what's the other interesting 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.220 to hear your view I think well I think but If 00:24:49.220 --> 00:24:50.700 we go right back to the beginning where we were 00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:53.079 talking about fun and human connection, I think 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:57.079 people are seeking that more. And I think certainly 00:24:57.079 --> 00:25:01.079 what we're seeing from our clients is that nobody's 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:02.759 asking for virtual learning anymore. Now it's 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:05.680 no longer a necessity. Everyone wants to go back 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:07.940 in the room. Everyone is seeking that human connection, 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.660 perhaps because there aren't as many opportunities 00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:12.960 as there were before to just connect in an office 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:15.680 space, since most people have retained some level 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.549 of flexible working. So I think it's really interesting 00:25:18.549 --> 00:25:21.589 that, you know, what is it that people are seeking 00:25:21.589 --> 00:25:24.230 given we had the opportunity and we mentioned 00:25:24.230 --> 00:25:26.970 introversion preference earlier and how an introversion 00:25:26.970 --> 00:25:29.890 preference might prefer to be alone or might 00:25:29.890 --> 00:25:32.529 have an extra cringe when we mention icebreakers 00:25:32.529 --> 00:25:37.289 or fun. But even with that said, I still think 00:25:37.289 --> 00:25:39.730 the most introverted of introverts is still going 00:25:39.730 --> 00:25:42.730 to seek some level of human connection. So I 00:25:42.730 --> 00:25:44.890 guess that's why it's loaded for me because what 00:25:44.890 --> 00:25:47.750 I see in our clients is that they're demanding 00:25:47.750 --> 00:25:50.809 it now more than ever and yeah we see that in 00:25:50.809 --> 00:25:52.430 the requests for work that are coming through 00:25:52.430 --> 00:25:55.109 but how does it for you guys are you seeing any 00:25:55.109 --> 00:25:57.950 differences from the last five years to pre -2020 00:25:57.950 --> 00:26:01.089 well interestingly enough I just ran a session 00:26:01.089 --> 00:26:04.990 that we ran it virtually and face -to -face so 00:26:04.990 --> 00:26:07.890 we got to experience the same session with a 00:26:07.890 --> 00:26:09.849 group that was virtual and then a group that 00:26:09.849 --> 00:26:12.390 was face -to -face and so you can really see 00:26:12.390 --> 00:26:16.220 then you know you're not comparing like two different 00:26:16.220 --> 00:26:18.779 topics you're comparing the same topic with two 00:26:18.779 --> 00:26:24.880 groups and I think you really it is harder to 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:29.039 build that relaxed atmosphere when you are online 00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:34.519 you do miss so much it just it's like you have 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.400 to be using the chat a lot more there's always 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:39.299 a little bit of delay when people are speaking 00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:42.059 you can't have multiple people speaking it's 00:26:42.059 --> 00:26:45.549 very hard to generate a conversation within the 00:26:45.549 --> 00:26:49.210 group between two of the participants so there's 00:26:49.210 --> 00:26:52.269 a lot more challenge in the facilitation to get 00:26:52.269 --> 00:26:56.349 that that natural flow of conversation that can 00:26:56.349 --> 00:27:01.390 happen in in a physical space yeah so I mean 00:27:01.390 --> 00:27:04.450 obviously I think most people if they have a 00:27:04.450 --> 00:27:07.690 choice they'll prefer to deliver face -to -face 00:27:07.690 --> 00:27:10.329 over virtual but yeah there's always business 00:27:10.329 --> 00:27:13.349 challenges around that as well where maybe people 00:27:13.349 --> 00:27:16.210 aren't able to physically come to that office 00:27:16.210 --> 00:27:19.170 they you know in Australia I don't know how it 00:27:19.170 --> 00:27:22.049 is in the UK but in Australia we've got companies 00:27:22.049 --> 00:27:23.890 where they've got people in lots of different 00:27:23.890 --> 00:27:27.950 states and it's become more distributed and so 00:27:27.950 --> 00:27:31.890 the requirement is still there that we have to 00:27:31.890 --> 00:27:38.029 support across a wider geographical area because 00:27:38.029 --> 00:27:41.150 it's no longer everyone's in that one office 00:27:41.150 --> 00:27:44.369 so We can all go there. Now it's like you could 00:27:44.369 --> 00:27:47.609 have someone in every state and you just have 00:27:47.609 --> 00:27:50.970 to cater for that. Yeah, I think from a facilitator 00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:52.289 perspective, which I'm going to take a different 00:27:52.289 --> 00:27:55.630 perspective, I think that there is a magic in 00:27:55.630 --> 00:27:58.950 that face -to -face that is lost, you know, when 00:27:58.950 --> 00:28:00.650 you're online. But as you say, Kiva, there's 00:28:00.650 --> 00:28:03.609 that kind of, there's the business need because 00:28:03.609 --> 00:28:07.970 people are, well, online enables companies to 00:28:07.970 --> 00:28:12.420 reach more of their people. in you know a wider 00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:16.019 wider areas and also bring people together from 00:28:16.019 --> 00:28:18.960 different areas at a much lower cost than flying 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:21.019 people around or you know transporting people 00:28:21.019 --> 00:28:24.079 around um so i think there's always a place for 00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:26.779 online but i think there's a richness that gets 00:28:26.779 --> 00:28:30.180 lost on online that you don't get face to face 00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:32.819 a richness section dare i say a bit of joy is 00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:35.900 lost as well like a bit of the joy i don't know 00:28:35.900 --> 00:28:38.400 is that just me that the joy is lost on an online 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:41.680 connection i i think it's I think it's connection. 00:28:43.579 --> 00:28:45.519 It's a deeper connection when you're face -to 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:47.400 -face because it's the conversations that also 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.619 happen between the sessions that you're having 00:28:50.619 --> 00:28:54.460 and when they do the group work, the conversations 00:28:54.460 --> 00:28:56.559 as they walk to and from the area where they're 00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:58.380 doing the group, if they're doing breakouts, 00:28:58.460 --> 00:29:00.440 that kind of thing. You don't get that if you're 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.240 in a call, an online call, and you put people 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:04.619 in breakouts, then they're whipped out of the 00:29:04.619 --> 00:29:07.849 breakouts when the timer goes. you know when 00:29:07.849 --> 00:29:09.269 you're face to face they're having the conversations 00:29:09.269 --> 00:29:11.650 and then they're the conversations extends don't 00:29:11.650 --> 00:29:14.150 they as they come back to the main room or back 00:29:14.150 --> 00:29:17.069 into the space um so i think there's a for me 00:29:17.069 --> 00:29:19.430 it's about connection i don't know if it's so 00:29:19.430 --> 00:29:21.210 it's joy and connection are very interlinked 00:29:21.210 --> 00:29:22.930 but there's something in the connection that 00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:26.150 gets lost i think the one thing that i've found 00:29:26.150 --> 00:29:31.609 i really enjoy using miro and so i'll build out 00:29:31.609 --> 00:29:35.319 these games on miro that you can't necessarily 00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:38.000 do face -to -face like they don't always work 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:42.319 so I ran one with my team for example just made 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.160 this up called the game of churn and the idea 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:52.319 was that quite often we do work and then but 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:54.839 we haven't asked the right questions in the beginning 00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:57.700 we haven't examined the scope closely enough 00:29:57.700 --> 00:30:00.740 or the brief or whatever and then we go off in 00:30:00.740 --> 00:30:04.170 the wrong direction and then we waste a lot of 00:30:04.170 --> 00:30:07.630 time so I was like how can I sort of teach this 00:30:07.630 --> 00:30:10.789 as an experience to my team and so I came up 00:30:10.789 --> 00:30:13.230 with this big it's like a chess board but it 00:30:13.230 --> 00:30:15.329 literally makes you go blind because there's 00:30:15.329 --> 00:30:17.490 a million little black and white squares hidden 00:30:17.490 --> 00:30:20.970 in these squares was a little trophy underneath 00:30:20.970 --> 00:30:23.269 the white square so you couldn't really see it 00:30:23.269 --> 00:30:26.910 and then I put chess pieces and they could move 00:30:26.910 --> 00:30:29.450 in the direction of the chess piece but the first 00:30:29.450 --> 00:30:32.240 time I gave it to them I said all right off you 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:35.839 go like everyone move once and then draw a line 00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:37.680 and then move again draw a line and so they had 00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:39.900 this big mess of moving and they didn't know 00:30:39.900 --> 00:30:41.680 where they were going or anything like that and 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:43.279 then the second round they were allowed to ask 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:45.900 questions and so but they were only allowed to 00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:49.740 ask yes no questions and so then that allowed 00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:53.559 them to experience working together as a group 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.990 and being able to slowly get towards the answer. 00:30:58.109 --> 00:31:00.470 So they had to think about what are the right 00:31:00.470 --> 00:31:02.529 questions. So there was a lot of metaphors in 00:31:02.529 --> 00:31:05.230 there, obviously asking them to reflect as they 00:31:05.230 --> 00:31:08.009 went through as well. What was nice there was 00:31:08.009 --> 00:31:10.890 that the digital platform allowed me to create 00:31:10.890 --> 00:31:13.759 a game that I guess I could have done it. in 00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:17.099 person but it was easier on Miro to create a 00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:19.839 game like that so I think there's things that 00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:21.920 we can do on Miro that are actually quite cool 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:24.579 and I love brainstorming on Miro as well because 00:31:24.579 --> 00:31:27.539 you can have lots of people in one space putting 00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:29.980 all their ideas together and then you can use 00:31:29.980 --> 00:31:32.839 the tool to cluster and theme the ideas and so 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:35.839 you can do things with Miro that you can't as 00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:38.819 easily do when you are physically in person. 00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:43.690 I've never heard of it that's a top tip. So it's 00:31:43.690 --> 00:31:47.329 just a virtual whiteboard, basically. Very cool. 00:31:47.549 --> 00:31:49.609 Maybe I'll bring up my game of chair while you 00:31:49.609 --> 00:31:52.410 guys are talking so you can see, you can visualise 00:31:52.410 --> 00:31:57.990 it. We did a little exercise at one of our conferences 00:31:57.990 --> 00:32:01.309 recently where each conference table had a ball 00:32:01.309 --> 00:32:03.990 of string on the table and the people sitting 00:32:03.990 --> 00:32:06.170 together broadly didn't know each other. There 00:32:06.170 --> 00:32:08.549 maybe were one or two people that knew. And the 00:32:08.549 --> 00:32:10.269 name of the game, it was a bit of a nice way 00:32:10.269 --> 00:32:13.589 of doing. the dreaded icebreaker but it was you 00:32:13.589 --> 00:32:15.650 know so maybe i start with a ball of string and 00:32:15.650 --> 00:32:18.190 i say something like i've got a sister and then 00:32:18.190 --> 00:32:19.950 someone else on the table has to say oh so have 00:32:19.950 --> 00:32:22.130 i and i i hold on to the end of the string but 00:32:22.130 --> 00:32:24.150 i throw the ball of the string to the person 00:32:24.150 --> 00:32:26.960 and then And so the game continues, everybody 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:28.859 saying something about themselves and finding 00:32:28.859 --> 00:32:30.799 a connection with someone else in the room. So 00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:32.400 you end up with this real physical manifestation 00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:35.400 of how we're all connected, which was really 00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:37.960 lovely. And then if you're feeling really brave 00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:39.900 as facilitators and if you've got enough string, 00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.519 then you can broaden it out to neighboring tables 00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:45.220 and sort of start playing with the connections 00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:48.220 across the room as well. Of course, if you've 00:32:48.220 --> 00:32:50.029 got enough string. bearing in mind health and 00:32:50.029 --> 00:32:51.990 safety issues but again that was just such a 00:32:51.990 --> 00:32:54.789 lovely joyful way of rather than doing the kind 00:32:54.789 --> 00:32:58.250 of dreaded icebreaker and it sounds i don't know 00:32:58.250 --> 00:33:00.190 when you were talking about miro kuva it kind 00:33:00.190 --> 00:33:02.150 of is like oh you can do some similar things 00:33:02.150 --> 00:33:04.210 maybe not quite as cool in the whiteboard like 00:33:04.210 --> 00:33:07.509 you know idea space but you know to those connections 00:33:07.509 --> 00:33:09.930 like there's some lovely ways of doing it so 00:33:09.930 --> 00:33:13.450 and i love that that's physical yeah Yeah. Yeah. 00:33:13.609 --> 00:33:15.369 It's nice to have something physical. Just where 00:33:15.369 --> 00:33:18.150 it's going around the table or around the room. 00:33:18.170 --> 00:33:20.809 Yeah. And also from an inclusivity perspective, 00:33:21.009 --> 00:33:22.809 you can also say, well, hang on a minute. If 00:33:22.809 --> 00:33:24.990 Fred over there has put his hands up loads and 00:33:24.990 --> 00:33:27.230 the ball of string has been thrown to him three 00:33:27.230 --> 00:33:30.390 or four times, then what can we, if someone's 00:33:30.390 --> 00:33:32.990 not got it yet, what connection could we find 00:33:32.990 --> 00:33:34.910 with them? Like, how are we going to bring these 00:33:34.910 --> 00:33:37.349 people in so that everyone gets at least one 00:33:37.349 --> 00:33:39.769 opportunity to be included? So, you know, to 00:33:39.769 --> 00:33:42.359 increase those. connections as you really challenge 00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:44.319 people and what they're thinking so there you 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:50.099 go a little free one from me oh that's wonderful 00:33:50.099 --> 00:33:53.200 this has been such a good chat yeah I've loved 00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:54.920 it. It's really nice to meet you both and hang 00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:56.819 out in this space. We should probably do this 00:33:56.819 --> 00:33:59.480 more. Definitely. This is my little game of churn, 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.480 just so you guys know. Oh, it really is blinding. 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.519 Look at that. Yeah. And then eventually down 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:07.700 in this little corner, they found it, but they 00:34:07.700 --> 00:34:09.900 actually went round and round in circles lots 00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:12.119 and lots of times before they got there. So that 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:15.440 was... kind of the intention here what happened 00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:18.380 was interesting they all kind of converged around 00:34:18.380 --> 00:34:22.840 the final piece lots of times so they can't they 00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:25.199 knew it was in this area but they couldn't quite 00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:27.579 find the piece so that was yeah it was a very 00:34:27.579 --> 00:34:29.800 interesting game to play with them how cool i'm 00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:31.300 definitely going to be going checking out what 00:34:31.300 --> 00:34:34.199 i can do in a mirror space after this um thanks 00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:36.440 kuva that's really cool i have one other question 00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:38.980 for everyone my question is about when has it 00:34:38.980 --> 00:34:41.880 not worked when have you like tried to do something 00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:45.099 and it's just gone flat I have a classic example 00:34:45.099 --> 00:34:47.860 can I tell you my the little examples I was working 00:34:47.860 --> 00:34:49.960 in an obviously organization that will remain 00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:51.420 nameless but I can tell you they were in the 00:34:51.420 --> 00:34:54.860 dentistry industry we have a few games that we 00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:57.760 put into our sessions and one of them is a game 00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:59.960 where people are blindfolded and the first thing 00:34:59.960 --> 00:35:01.699 I have to say when playing that game is does 00:35:01.699 --> 00:35:03.179 anyone not want to wear the blindfold because 00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:05.260 it's fine if you don't but I want people to feel 00:35:05.260 --> 00:35:07.340 safe so if that's if you've got any vertigo or 00:35:07.340 --> 00:35:09.420 whatever or you just don't want to do it that's 00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:11.219 fine so a couple of people sat out in this particular 00:35:11.219 --> 00:35:12.880 session they weren't all dentists but people 00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:15.460 who sell the dentistry we tried to play the game 00:35:15.460 --> 00:35:18.480 but there was one individual in the game who 00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:21.539 was just he He was very competitive and I think 00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:23.440 he realised early on that it was quite tough 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:24.940 and it is a really challenging game and that's 00:35:24.940 --> 00:35:26.860 all in the brief. It's really hard to solve. 00:35:26.980 --> 00:35:30.960 Most teams take at least 30 to 35 minutes. You're 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:32.380 going to have to use your powers of communication. 00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:35.159 And his negative mindset was very much like, 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:37.440 we are never going to do this, guys. We are never 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:39.619 going to do it. And it was really interesting 00:35:39.619 --> 00:35:42.960 to see how toxic that mindset was because other 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:45.219 people in the team tried to stand up to him and 00:35:45.219 --> 00:35:47.519 say, no, we think we can do it. But his voice 00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:49.940 was so dominant and so powerful. that they ended 00:35:49.940 --> 00:35:51.960 up completely failing and not going anywhere 00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:54.099 near to solving the task so but it's supposed 00:35:54.099 --> 00:35:57.760 to be a fun engaging learning activity where 00:35:57.760 --> 00:35:59.820 teams learn the behaviors that serve them well 00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:02.679 and the behaviors that don't and so although 00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:06.280 the game failed and i and i it was really interesting 00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:09.219 in the debrief this particular person I said 00:36:09.219 --> 00:36:10.400 to him you know what do you think your impact 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:13.960 was on the team when you said those things and 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:16.039 he tried to swerve the question and sort of said 00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:17.460 but it's a really silly game Elaine you should 00:36:17.460 --> 00:36:18.980 never have had us doing that what's the point 00:36:18.980 --> 00:36:21.260 of this and I'm like let's let's just stay with 00:36:21.260 --> 00:36:23.960 the question what do you think your impact was 00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:27.550 on the team when you behaved in the way that 00:36:27.550 --> 00:36:30.269 you did and he refused to answer and I'm a bit 00:36:30.269 --> 00:36:32.030 cross with myself because I had an opportunity 00:36:32.030 --> 00:36:34.909 to ask the team what was the impact of his behavior 00:36:34.909 --> 00:36:37.110 on your overall performance but that felt a bit 00:36:37.110 --> 00:36:40.050 exposing for him so I backed away from that opportunity 00:36:40.050 --> 00:36:41.929 I don't know whether I'm happy with that or not 00:36:41.929 --> 00:36:44.469 but that that was an intended piece of fun that 00:36:44.469 --> 00:36:46.429 usually it's the only time I've played that game 00:36:46.429 --> 00:36:49.690 with teams hundreds of times it only failed the 00:36:49.690 --> 00:36:52.070 one time um and that was really interesting the 00:36:52.070 --> 00:36:54.809 impact of someone else's mindset on team performance 00:36:54.809 --> 00:36:56.989 I don't know how about you Jess I've had I've 00:36:56.989 --> 00:36:59.429 had occasions I mean thinking back to the COVID 00:36:59.429 --> 00:37:02.010 times being on screen and people switch their 00:37:02.010 --> 00:37:05.369 cameras off by doing an exercise and get people 00:37:05.369 --> 00:37:07.150 to get into their body and then they their cameras 00:37:07.150 --> 00:37:09.550 go off and that's when you know you don't want 00:37:09.550 --> 00:37:13.030 to call people out because very good reason why 00:37:13.030 --> 00:37:15.190 so you kind of carry on but then when you've 00:37:15.190 --> 00:37:18.650 got the black square other people doing something 00:37:18.650 --> 00:37:21.429 I think that's when it it can feel uncomfortable 00:37:21.429 --> 00:37:24.250 and that hasn't happened very often to be fair 00:37:24.250 --> 00:37:27.510 but I think they they're that would or they would 00:37:27.510 --> 00:37:30.269 be occasions where it's felt like or maybe the 00:37:30.269 --> 00:37:32.570 energy is not quite right here how about you 00:37:32.570 --> 00:37:34.469 Kiva have you got an example yeah I've got a 00:37:34.469 --> 00:37:38.030 couple I've got one where I was designing the 00:37:38.030 --> 00:37:41.630 learning for it was a mortgage lending company 00:37:41.630 --> 00:37:45.400 and they had a major legislative change that 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:47.980 they were facing. And I came up with this great 00:37:47.980 --> 00:37:49.880 idea that they're going to have a battle where 00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:51.320 they're going to talk about the pros and cons 00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:53.559 of this new change. So we got a bunch of them 00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:57.139 into the session. And these guys are very high 00:37:57.139 --> 00:38:01.119 earning, the top ones especially, and very, very 00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:03.579 careful with their time because every minute 00:38:03.579 --> 00:38:06.900 is money to them, basically. So they got into 00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:09.019 this session and we were like, yep, we're going 00:38:09.019 --> 00:38:10.340 to do a battle. We're going to talk about the 00:38:10.340 --> 00:38:13.320 pros and cons. And they were like, just tell 00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:15.380 us about the change. We don't want this. I'm 00:38:15.380 --> 00:38:18.559 not allowed to swear. We don't want this. Just 00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:22.440 tell us about the change. Tell us now. Like, 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:26.119 no fun. We don't have time for fun. So I think 00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:28.400 that that was really interesting and important 00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:32.250 because I think. What I take away from that is 00:38:32.250 --> 00:38:35.150 that if someone's actually really engaged and 00:38:35.150 --> 00:38:37.670 interested in what you're teaching them in the 00:38:37.670 --> 00:38:42.289 content itself, gamification or fun can actually 00:38:42.289 --> 00:38:46.449 feel like a distraction. and feel like it's getting 00:38:46.449 --> 00:38:49.789 in the way and wasting time where you could actually 00:38:49.789 --> 00:38:53.309 just be focused on the topic itself, which I 00:38:53.309 --> 00:38:55.789 think is really important. The other one is probably 00:38:55.789 --> 00:38:58.469 when you're doing those compliance trainings 00:38:58.469 --> 00:39:00.929 that they force you to do when you do an induction. 00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:07.699 I can see you smiling there, Jess. And then some 00:39:07.699 --> 00:39:11.280 genius learning designer has decided, yeah, we're 00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:12.820 going to make this fun. We're going to turn it 00:39:12.820 --> 00:39:15.860 into a game. And then instead of just being able 00:39:15.860 --> 00:39:18.800 to get through the thing quickly, it takes longer 00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:24.079 and it feels contrived. And it also distracts. 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:26.260 Like I remember doing one that was. some kind 00:39:26.260 --> 00:39:29.579 of quiz show or I don't know it was some fun 00:39:29.579 --> 00:39:32.940 rapper around the outside but it actually didn't 00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:36.119 make it more fun to me it just meant that I felt 00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:40.039 like I was a bit distracted by it and um and 00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:42.699 it was taking longer yeah okie dokie I think 00:39:42.699 --> 00:39:44.659 it's probably time for us to wrap up ladies but 00:39:44.659 --> 00:39:47.199 it's been an absolute joy to spend this morning 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:49.480 with you and have this conversation I've loved 00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:51.539 it I've loved talking about fun let's do more 00:39:51.539 --> 00:39:53.420 of it let's see if we can bring a little bit 00:39:53.420 --> 00:39:56.099 more a little bit more joy into workplaces I 00:39:56.099 --> 00:39:58.579 would love to have more fun in the workplace 00:39:58.579 --> 00:40:03.699 100 % so yes as much as I can possibly get I'm 00:40:03.699 --> 00:40:07.119 all for that yeah and I want my learners to have 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:09.320 a good experience when they're they're learning 00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:11.980 from us and so I think that yeah it's super important 00:40:11.980 --> 00:40:14.420 and the more sticky we can make our learning 00:40:14.420 --> 00:40:17.090 the more impactful we can make it then i think 00:40:17.090 --> 00:40:19.429 that that's that's our job done right yeah it 00:40:19.429 --> 00:40:21.530 was wonderful to meet you both and yeah let's 00:40:21.530 --> 00:40:24.829 take the fun into the day did you have fun listening 00:40:24.829 --> 00:40:28.130 to this episode the idea of forced fun is a bit 00:40:28.130 --> 00:40:30.269 of an anathema to me and it was brilliant to 00:40:30.269 --> 00:40:32.829 listen to experts in the topic produce such an 00:40:32.829 --> 00:40:35.449 interesting conversation do let us know your 00:40:35.449 --> 00:40:37.250 thoughts and perhaps share some of your ideas 00:40:37.250 --> 00:40:40.769 a very special thank you to jess elaine and kuva 00:40:40.769 --> 00:40:43.030 for their insight into this topic and for their 00:40:43.030 --> 00:40:46.230 time in making such a brilliant recording I know 00:40:46.230 --> 00:40:48.190 you'll want to connect with them afterwards and 00:40:48.190 --> 00:40:50.130 their details are in the show notes, along with 00:40:50.130 --> 00:40:52.010 information about how to connect with us here 00:40:52.010 --> 00:40:55.349 at Women Talking About Learning. Please do remember 00:40:55.349 --> 00:40:57.510 to like and subscribe to the podcast on your 00:40:57.510 --> 00:41:00.090 podcast player. It makes a real difference in 00:41:00.090 --> 00:41:03.030 helping people find and recommend us. We're back 00:41:03.030 --> 00:41:06.110 in a couple of weeks and next time it's the female 00:41:06.110 --> 00:41:09.989 voice one. As always, thanks for listening and 00:41:09.989 --> 00:41:10.929 we'll see you again soon.