WEBVTT 00:00:11.630 --> 00:00:15.029 Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the 00:00:15.029 --> 00:00:18.129 LND Books One, part two of the Women Talking 00:00:18.129 --> 00:00:21.769 About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. This 00:00:21.769 --> 00:00:24.449 is the second part of this podcast. If you haven't 00:00:24.449 --> 00:00:27.210 listened to part one, please do go back and listen 00:00:27.210 --> 00:00:30.969 to the previous episode. In this part, our guests 00:00:30.969 --> 00:00:34.810 Hannah, Pam, Beth and Emily discuss the difficulties 00:00:34.810 --> 00:00:37.429 and doubts they encountered when writing and 00:00:37.429 --> 00:00:39.450 also share their book recommendations for us 00:00:39.450 --> 00:00:42.920 to read. So settle back, grab a drink and enjoy. 00:00:44.140 --> 00:00:46.119 I know Hannah's talked a lot about her book writing 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:47.759 process, especially the second one, I think, 00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:51.619 right, Hannah on LinkedIn? Yeah, very similar 00:00:51.619 --> 00:00:55.159 to you, Emily. I decided I was in a program and 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:57.600 a mentor said that you should spend as much time 00:00:57.600 --> 00:00:59.920 promoting your book as writing your book. And 00:00:59.920 --> 00:01:03.179 I thought, oh, OK, so you should. Post on LinkedIn 00:01:03.179 --> 00:01:05.719 every week. So so I did that starting with my 00:01:05.719 --> 00:01:07.879 first book now I wasn't as brave as you and I 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:10.819 didn't do videos but but every Friday and I'm 00:01:10.819 --> 00:01:12.519 still doing it so it's been a couple years now 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:14.920 my first book and my second book and anyways 00:01:15.819 --> 00:01:19.280 yeah posted every Friday some kind of update 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:21.739 about my book so here's three covers which do 00:01:21.739 --> 00:01:24.280 you like best or I'm struggling you said earlier 00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:26.719 that you struggled with the title so here's you 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:29.060 know four title options what combinations are 00:01:29.060 --> 00:01:32.159 best and or even just kind of content or IP that 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:33.879 I was thinking through and that kind of thing 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:38.239 so yeah I think I agree, Emily, with everything 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:40.900 you said, that the accountability, that writing 00:01:40.900 --> 00:01:43.420 in public gives you the opportunity to get feedback 00:01:43.420 --> 00:01:47.120 on what you're doing. And it means that, yeah, 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:49.180 when it's out in the world, it's not in a vacuum, 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:50.959 and people know about it, and there's some excitement 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:53.040 there, which feels good, because I think, you 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:56.680 know, as women in this virtual space here, it's 00:01:56.680 --> 00:01:59.379 like having a baby, right? Like you work so hard 00:01:59.379 --> 00:02:01.840 on writing this, and then when it finally comes 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:03.040 out, you're like, I don't know what it's actually 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:05.739 going to look like. But then you want to be excited. 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.719 about it and so I think having that accountability 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:12.020 and that regular cadence, Emily, I agree, is 00:02:12.020 --> 00:02:14.780 really helpful for that. I'm using the same process 00:02:14.780 --> 00:02:17.599 now and trying to post on LinkedIn every week 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:19.919 or every two weeks because I thought the same 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:22.120 thing that it would keep me accountable and actually 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:24.159 get to the finish line even though I could do 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:26.680 it because I did it before and this is book number 00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:28.800 two but in some ways I think I'm doing it also 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:31.460 to help other people and maybe other women particularly 00:02:31.460 --> 00:02:35.240 out there know that it's not all easy to write 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.539 a book. There's times where I'm doubting myself 00:02:38.539 --> 00:02:43.150 and questioning whether I know anything. And 00:02:43.150 --> 00:02:46.110 I do know, and I have a lot of ego actually healthy 00:02:46.110 --> 00:02:48.949 about doing this work and I've got a company 00:02:48.949 --> 00:02:51.210 and all the things, right? But I think maybe 00:02:51.210 --> 00:02:53.610 just the older I get, the more I realize I don't 00:02:53.610 --> 00:02:56.229 know as well, that whole thing. And so I just 00:02:56.229 --> 00:02:59.210 want to show. both sides of, yeah, I'm really 00:02:59.210 --> 00:03:02.110 proud of what I'm doing and as I'm doing it, 00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:05.110 but also that it's hard and we can do hard things 00:03:05.110 --> 00:03:07.569 and we can get over that and we can tell the 00:03:07.569 --> 00:03:10.050 real story of what it means to write behind the 00:03:10.050 --> 00:03:12.750 scenes. It's hard work. I don't know. Pam, have 00:03:12.750 --> 00:03:15.509 you thought that about just showing kind of all 00:03:15.509 --> 00:03:18.569 the things about the writing process? Yeah, it 00:03:18.569 --> 00:03:22.490 is. It is hard work. And I agree with you completely. 00:03:22.830 --> 00:03:26.069 But we also know, don't we, that most books, 00:03:26.330 --> 00:03:29.810 most business books are written by men. And there 00:03:29.810 --> 00:03:32.069 are very few business books written by women. 00:03:32.069 --> 00:03:35.590 And so I completely agree that I that it's important 00:03:35.590 --> 00:03:37.250 for us to show the journey and show that it's 00:03:37.250 --> 00:03:39.500 possible and show that we that we can make stuff 00:03:39.500 --> 00:03:42.159 up to, you know, it doesn't, I think similar 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:44.620 to you, Beth, in the beginning of my writing 00:03:44.620 --> 00:03:46.740 journey, I felt like I had to find science for 00:03:46.740 --> 00:03:48.360 everything, because it wasn't enough that I'd 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:50.960 experienced it. And now, you know, I'm just more 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:53.620 like, well, I know this works. And Emily, you 00:03:53.620 --> 00:03:55.159 mentioned at the beginning of the conversation 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:56.659 about the different platforms, you know, we can 00:03:56.659 --> 00:03:59.319 listen to books now we can have short form things. 00:03:59.659 --> 00:04:02.900 Has anyone started experimenting on TikTok at 00:04:02.900 --> 00:04:05.740 all? Because I'm only very early into my book 00:04:05.740 --> 00:04:08.569 talk TikTok journey. And I have to say I'm loving 00:04:08.569 --> 00:04:10.789 it okay I'm not very good at producing the video 00:04:10.789 --> 00:04:13.289 so I have a social media producer who is amazing 00:04:13.289 --> 00:04:15.930 her name is Holly and she's excellent but what 00:04:15.930 --> 00:04:18.850 what it's helped me to do is just access that 00:04:18.850 --> 00:04:20.930 short form learning. Cause what's driving me 00:04:20.930 --> 00:04:23.389 is not book sales. Uh, you know, it's not, not 00:04:23.389 --> 00:04:25.649 necessarily being, uh, you know, a famous author. 00:04:25.769 --> 00:04:27.790 Absolutely. But what's driving me is I really 00:04:27.790 --> 00:04:30.529 believe in this stuff and I know I can help other 00:04:30.529 --> 00:04:32.850 people to do their jobs better. I know I can. 00:04:33.170 --> 00:04:35.709 And so it's been really interesting putting those 00:04:35.709 --> 00:04:37.850 into one minute or two minute long videos, because 00:04:37.850 --> 00:04:39.750 there's so many snippets, which are a little 00:04:39.750 --> 00:04:41.730 story or a little piece of advice or when something 00:04:41.730 --> 00:04:43.509 went wrong. And I'm just loving it. It's given 00:04:43.509 --> 00:04:46.110 me such energy. So I'm trying to do not so much 00:04:46.110 --> 00:04:48.730 LinkedIn posts, but I'm What I do then post them 00:04:48.730 --> 00:04:52.069 on LinkedIn in a separate space, but I'm trying 00:04:52.069 --> 00:04:56.430 to do at least one or two TikToks a week is my 00:04:56.430 --> 00:04:59.790 thing, and I'm enjoying it. Pam, you are a brave 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:03.089 soul. I do short videos on LinkedIn and I have 00:05:03.089 --> 00:05:05.649 for a while, but I have not ventured into TikTok. 00:05:07.129 --> 00:05:09.709 And I guess the thought that's bubbling to the 00:05:09.709 --> 00:05:13.449 surface for me listening to you is that if we... 00:05:13.689 --> 00:05:17.990 broaden our definition of book and if we recognize 00:05:17.990 --> 00:05:20.790 we're all authors, we can be authors in different 00:05:20.790 --> 00:05:23.589 formats. So we can author newsletters, we can 00:05:23.589 --> 00:05:26.629 author books, we can author podcasts, we can 00:05:26.629 --> 00:05:29.389 author TikTok videos. It's all about sharing 00:05:29.389 --> 00:05:32.689 our thoughts and ideas with the world and how 00:05:32.689 --> 00:05:36.269 we envision that supporting kind of learning 00:05:36.269 --> 00:05:41.750 and women. So kudos to you, Pam. I haven't taken 00:05:41.750 --> 00:05:45.430 that leap myself. I think you'd find it easy 00:05:45.430 --> 00:05:47.850 though, Hannah, because you've got so many stories. 00:05:47.970 --> 00:05:50.209 And that's what I rely on. And I don't always 00:05:50.209 --> 00:05:52.350 know. Like sometimes, some weeks, I just think, 00:05:52.470 --> 00:05:54.329 I've no idea. And then I think, I'm not going 00:05:54.329 --> 00:05:55.870 to post anything. There's no point in forcing 00:05:55.870 --> 00:05:57.610 it. But then sometimes I think, oh, I must tell 00:05:57.610 --> 00:06:00.290 that story. And so, and I feel like that's the 00:06:00.290 --> 00:06:02.810 person, and I've had to become much more authentic, 00:06:02.990 --> 00:06:04.689 not worry about making a mistake. You know, there's 00:06:04.689 --> 00:06:06.470 lots of learning that I've had to do about it, 00:06:06.490 --> 00:06:08.410 but. I mean, apart from the fact that I'm not 00:06:08.410 --> 00:06:11.649 actually editing my own TikToks, the actual process 00:06:11.649 --> 00:06:13.850 of it has been really, and I'm sure you'd be 00:06:13.850 --> 00:06:16.329 all would be brilliant at it if you're not doing 00:06:16.329 --> 00:06:19.790 it already. I like this point about being authentic, 00:06:20.250 --> 00:06:23.529 Pam, because I think when I was doing the video, 00:06:23.689 --> 00:06:27.050 I'm also not doing the book talk. I mean, very, 00:06:27.050 --> 00:06:31.750 very impressive. But this point about authenticity 00:06:31.750 --> 00:06:35.009 is something that can be a real challenge, but 00:06:35.009 --> 00:06:39.370 it's also a space where we should be ambassadors 00:06:39.370 --> 00:06:41.949 because when especially when I first started 00:06:41.949 --> 00:06:45.250 doing it, you know, I would try and take the 00:06:45.250 --> 00:06:47.790 video loads and loads of times thinking I don't 00:06:47.790 --> 00:06:50.750 look good. People are going to look at me and 00:06:50.750 --> 00:06:53.189 they're going to think I wouldn't buy a book 00:06:53.189 --> 00:06:55.949 from her. I wouldn't learn something or thinking 00:06:55.949 --> 00:06:58.910 I didn't do exactly perfect or I stumbled or 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:02.259 any of these kinds of things and then at one 00:07:02.259 --> 00:07:05.959 point I thought enough you know part of doing 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:10.500 this is showing that it's okay to create content 00:07:10.500 --> 00:07:13.240 and just put it out there because if you're not 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:16.899 doing it other people are and I think it's it's 00:07:16.899 --> 00:07:19.800 really hard for women in particular not to self 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:23.149 censor and self edit and think that things need 00:07:23.149 --> 00:07:25.350 to be perfect and therefore not put it out there 00:07:25.350 --> 00:07:28.490 where what we need is more content from women 00:07:28.490 --> 00:07:31.250 showing it's okay to be authentic and do your 00:07:31.250 --> 00:07:33.350 first take and send it out there because you 00:07:33.350 --> 00:07:35.870 have something to share with people. So yeah, 00:07:35.930 --> 00:07:38.290 I think it's massively, massively important. 00:07:39.750 --> 00:07:42.930 100%. I have a question, Emily, based on what 00:07:42.930 --> 00:07:46.089 you said there. So if you have to, Beth, you're 00:07:46.089 --> 00:07:49.029 already writing your next book. So maybe, I don't 00:07:49.029 --> 00:07:51.250 know if you would answer this differently or... 00:07:51.230 --> 00:07:53.569 cite the book that you've already started. But 00:07:53.569 --> 00:07:56.670 for each of us, if we think about, if we wrote 00:07:56.670 --> 00:08:00.089 another book, what's the next book in us? And 00:08:00.089 --> 00:08:02.810 what's the book that's a little bit scary to 00:08:02.810 --> 00:08:04.389 write? Like if we're going to be authentic and 00:08:04.389 --> 00:08:07.589 true to who we are, what's the book that we could 00:08:07.589 --> 00:08:09.970 write that would maybe push us a little bit into 00:08:09.970 --> 00:08:12.509 a space that feels a bit unfamiliar? Do you have 00:08:12.509 --> 00:08:15.129 another book in you, each of you? Pam, you're 00:08:15.129 --> 00:08:17.870 nodding your head. What's yours? I'm laughing 00:08:17.870 --> 00:08:22.300 because my... Every time I write the books, I 00:08:22.300 --> 00:08:26.060 say, I'm not going to do that again. Cause it's 00:08:26.060 --> 00:08:29.420 so hard, right? Anyway, I do have a, I'll, I'll, 00:08:29.420 --> 00:08:31.100 I'll relax and then I'll, I have another book 00:08:31.100 --> 00:08:33.740 in me, which is probably how to run a female 00:08:33.740 --> 00:08:35.940 centric business or from a female perspective. 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:38.820 I need a better name than that because like you. 00:08:38.940 --> 00:08:41.039 Beth, like, I think probably like all of us, 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:44.299 we have our own businesses. And yes, so I feel 00:08:44.299 --> 00:08:46.159 like I've got some things to say about that, 00:08:46.220 --> 00:08:49.460 but actually laughing because I'm, I, as a result 00:08:49.460 --> 00:08:52.019 of all of this writing journey, and I wasn't 00:08:52.019 --> 00:08:54.940 always a writer, Emily, like you, I did a part 00:08:54.940 --> 00:08:58.259 -time creative writing degree and a master's 00:08:58.259 --> 00:09:00.919 degree. And I'm now writing a corporate murder 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:04.870 mystery. um which is also well basically all 00:09:04.870 --> 00:09:09.450 of the trauma in a in a fictional form nice and 00:09:09.450 --> 00:09:11.750 so that's my that's you know that's also my next 00:09:11.750 --> 00:09:13.980 book How about you guys? I have another book 00:09:13.980 --> 00:09:16.200 idea. I was going to write it second and I started 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:18.740 and did a solo writing retreat on it and then 00:09:18.740 --> 00:09:20.519 I decided it was going to be a little bit too 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:22.059 much work and I'm going to do this one first 00:09:22.059 --> 00:09:24.340 and then return to the other idea. But the other 00:09:24.340 --> 00:09:27.419 idea is to go and interview people that work 00:09:27.419 --> 00:09:30.600 in other fields where they also create an experience 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:36.559 for usually a group. you know musicians or auctioneers 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:39.740 or clowns or you know creative folk like that 00:09:39.740 --> 00:09:42.740 and then just say how do you create that experience 00:09:42.740 --> 00:09:45.460 and what do you do in your field to do that and 00:09:45.460 --> 00:09:47.759 then what can we take from that to apply back 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.220 to the world of facilitation. So that's my next 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:52.720 idea and I've got a whole Scrivener file set 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.080 up to you know got all sorts of stuff in there 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:57.320 and it just kind of parked and waiting and who 00:09:57.320 --> 00:09:59.240 knows when I'll return but gotta finish this 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:02.820 one first. That sounds amazing. I love that book, 00:10:02.980 --> 00:10:05.379 that book idea, because everything we do is creating 00:10:05.379 --> 00:10:07.980 immersive experiences. Yeah. So get all of that 00:10:07.980 --> 00:10:09.759 inspiration. What a wonderful idea, Beth. Well, 00:10:09.980 --> 00:10:12.679 I mean, in a micro scale, I started to interview 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:15.100 people and I interviewed a humanitarian clown 00:10:15.100 --> 00:10:17.299 and I put it up on my podcast. So it's there 00:10:17.299 --> 00:10:20.100 if anyone wants to listen to it. just to listen 00:10:20.100 --> 00:10:22.980 to this man and how he's in Quebec, in Canada, 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:25.879 and he goes into long -term care facilities and 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:28.500 as a humanitarian, or as a therapeutic clown 00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:31.019 in that context, he's also a humanitarian clown, 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:34.100 and to listen to the skills that he has been 00:10:34.100 --> 00:10:37.120 taught and brings, you know, in the clowning 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:39.419 experience, which is not about laughter, ha ha, 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.399 right? It's more about connecting with people. 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.440 Fascinating, fascinating to just hear it and 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:46.259 think, well, what can we learn from that about 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:49.179 connecting even without words or listening to 00:10:49.179 --> 00:10:52.620 the person or using body language or it's just 00:10:52.620 --> 00:10:54.700 like right you can tell i'm all excited you know 00:10:54.700 --> 00:10:56.940 because it's just fascinating to to learn from 00:10:56.940 --> 00:10:59.399 other fields and maybe Emily i'll turn it back 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:01.220 to you because you said you were coming from 00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:03.279 the world of innovation and that's that's where 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:05.240 it all comes from right we could be more innovative 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.179 when we look at other fields and bring it back 00:11:07.179 --> 00:11:09.480 to what we know in ours right definitely call 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:12.360 me there Yeah, definitely. I mean, it sounds 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:14.580 like an amazing book. One thing that I love to 00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:17.600 do outside of work is amateur musical theatre. 00:11:17.700 --> 00:11:22.179 So I've done many, many shows. And yeah, I see 00:11:22.179 --> 00:11:24.940 it as being also an act of facilitation. This 00:11:24.940 --> 00:11:27.179 is one of the things that I talk about in the 00:11:27.179 --> 00:11:30.120 book that I think something that drew me to facilitation 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.820 in the first place was that similar feeling of 00:11:33.820 --> 00:11:37.299 creating an environment where people are happy 00:11:37.299 --> 00:11:40.419 and they feel drawn into something that really 00:11:40.419 --> 00:11:44.059 speaks to them, you know. But on the book question, 00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:48.299 so two more thoughts. I mean, according to Hannah's 00:11:48.299 --> 00:11:51.539 categorisation of what's the one you're thinking 00:11:51.539 --> 00:11:54.059 about and what would be the scary option, I have 00:11:54.059 --> 00:11:56.620 something that's come to mind for both. So on 00:11:56.620 --> 00:12:00.059 the first one, the what comes next, I have a 00:12:00.059 --> 00:12:02.039 phrase that I've been turning over in my mind 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:05.779 for ages of workshopify your expertise. In my 00:12:05.779 --> 00:12:08.039 business, I do quite a lot of one -to -one work. 00:12:08.220 --> 00:12:11.919 Coming from a place where I was doing mostly 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:14.860 corporate training, it's been a real joy to work 00:12:14.860 --> 00:12:17.799 with people one -on -one. And a lot of the people 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:21.519 I work with are people who are coming from a 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:23.720 field of expertise. Let's say it's organizational 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:27.639 culture or it might be branding, for example, 00:12:27.899 --> 00:12:31.700 and they haven't done it before, but now as self 00:12:31.700 --> 00:12:33.820 -employed people, they want to start running 00:12:33.820 --> 00:12:35.779 workshops and trainings for the first times for 00:12:35.779 --> 00:12:39.139 their clients and they want to understand how 00:12:39.139 --> 00:12:41.259 to workshopify their expertise and I'm helping 00:12:41.259 --> 00:12:43.659 take them through that process so that's kind 00:12:43.659 --> 00:12:45.919 of generating its own thing that I want to write 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.960 about. The scary option would be something I 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.600 see coming up time and time again talking to 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:54.970 other self -employed facilitators which is people 00:12:54.970 --> 00:12:58.009 always say, I hate sales and I can't do sales. 00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:01.669 And I really believe that sales is an act of 00:13:01.669 --> 00:13:04.389 facilitation. What puts me off from writing that 00:13:04.389 --> 00:13:06.450 book is, although I've done plenty of sales in 00:13:06.450 --> 00:13:10.029 my time, I just don't feel like I'm the expert 00:13:10.029 --> 00:13:13.809 enough to write the book. That's me just being 00:13:13.809 --> 00:13:17.049 open and vulnerable about how that topic feels 00:13:17.049 --> 00:13:18.870 to me, which is why it would be the scary choice. 00:13:18.889 --> 00:13:21.789 But I think it's something that is... needed 00:13:21.789 --> 00:13:24.190 and necessary within the community that we all 00:13:24.190 --> 00:13:29.230 exist in. I honestly do. And Emily, when, not 00:13:29.230 --> 00:13:32.649 if, when you write that book, what a beautiful 00:13:32.649 --> 00:13:35.830 story that could come out about your own fear 00:13:35.830 --> 00:13:38.289 about, I'm not an expert, I can't write about 00:13:38.289 --> 00:13:42.490 this, but... but yes, I can and look at the confidence 00:13:42.490 --> 00:13:44.049 and what I can share with you. So you could take 00:13:44.049 --> 00:13:48.090 your own lived experience as a way of telling 00:13:48.090 --> 00:13:50.769 that story and sharing with others who maybe 00:13:50.769 --> 00:13:52.629 are feeling a little bit like, ooh, I can't do 00:13:52.629 --> 00:13:56.169 this. So it'd be a nice path forward, I think. 00:13:56.289 --> 00:13:58.809 It'd be beautiful. I agree. I think from a... 00:13:58.889 --> 00:14:01.789 From a metacognitive perspective, like when we 00:14:01.789 --> 00:14:04.450 teach, we have to tell our students or our learners 00:14:04.450 --> 00:14:06.990 what was difficult for us when we were learning 00:14:06.990 --> 00:14:09.070 the thing or doing the thing. And just, I think 00:14:09.070 --> 00:14:10.789 that's the reason why you have to write that 00:14:10.789 --> 00:14:13.830 book, Emily, and tell the full story about, you 00:14:13.830 --> 00:14:16.710 know, like the doubt, right? I've talked a lot 00:14:16.710 --> 00:14:19.009 about doubt and just making mistakes and all 00:14:19.009 --> 00:14:21.169 that kind of stuff. Every time I do a solo episode 00:14:21.169 --> 00:14:24.230 of my podcast, I'm trying to mine my experience 00:14:24.230 --> 00:14:27.360 and tell the hard things, right? I'm not on TikTok, 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:29.460 but that's what I use the podcast for in some 00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:32.019 respects, right? And just we have to tell each 00:14:32.019 --> 00:14:34.379 other the full story and we have to write those 00:14:34.379 --> 00:14:36.440 books. So if people are out there listening thinking 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:38.500 they can't do this, like get that out of your 00:14:38.500 --> 00:14:40.860 head right now, you know, because you can, we 00:14:40.860 --> 00:14:43.460 all can. But Hannah, you didn't answer your own 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:45.620 question, I don't think. What's your next book? 00:14:46.500 --> 00:14:48.440 You're right, you're right. Matthew caught me. 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:54.220 So I think, I feel like... AI is all around us 00:14:54.220 --> 00:14:58.100 and it's so disruptive, depending on your perspective, 00:14:58.220 --> 00:15:00.279 it's so disruptive where there's so much opportunity. 00:15:00.580 --> 00:15:04.980 And I think there's something there. So it's 00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:07.600 both a possible next book and something I'm afraid 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.899 to write. Maybe Emily from the same perspective 00:15:09.899 --> 00:15:12.899 that I don't feel like I'm an AI expert. I'm 00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:15.340 dipping my toe into it and I'm partnering with 00:15:15.340 --> 00:15:20.840 a colleague who is. So looking at What's learning 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:22.779 and development, or even HR, if you want to think 00:15:22.779 --> 00:15:26.879 more broadly, what's their role in supporting 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:30.440 organizations when they're implementing or using 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:32.559 AI so that it can be done successfully? So in 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:36.019 a learning context, how do you get your employees 00:15:36.019 --> 00:15:39.169 ready? for this so that they're going to be able 00:15:39.169 --> 00:15:41.629 to embrace it and see the innovation in it and 00:15:41.629 --> 00:15:44.750 not the fear in it maybe. And so it's just a 00:15:44.750 --> 00:15:46.690 really small kernel. But like you, Pam, every 00:15:46.690 --> 00:15:48.070 time I read it, I'm like, I'm not writing another 00:15:48.070 --> 00:15:51.210 book. But it sits there at the back of your head 00:15:51.210 --> 00:15:55.309 churning, right? So yeah, I think there's something 00:15:55.309 --> 00:15:57.850 there that I'm curious about anyways that I want 00:15:57.850 --> 00:16:00.889 to scratch the surface a little bit on. So yeah. 00:16:01.950 --> 00:16:03.990 But back to the topic, what you're doing there 00:16:03.990 --> 00:16:06.250 as the author is facilitating it, aren't you? 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:09.799 or Emily, you'd be facilitating that topic by 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:12.159 bringing it out by not feeling like you have 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:14.220 to be the one who's got all the answers. Yeah, 00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:17.240 for sure. And seeing it again as that act of 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:20.799 refining your own process, I suppose, because 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.620 going back to the way that I wrote the first 00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:26.840 book, I know that writing that book about sales 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:29.259 as an act of facilitation would make me a far 00:16:29.259 --> 00:16:32.659 better salesperson, you know, it would force 00:16:32.659 --> 00:16:39.440 me to codify, to formalize, to learn from others, 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:43.580 to research. And I'm sure I would come out far 00:16:43.580 --> 00:16:46.340 stronger from the process. So I think I'm going 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:49.799 to do it. I feel inspired. And I'd love to read 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:52.039 your book, Hannah, and yours, Beth. They sound 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:56.299 amazing. I think too, and sorry, Emily and Pam, 00:16:56.299 --> 00:16:57.940 I can't remember which one of you said this, 00:16:57.960 --> 00:16:59.720 but was talking about, you know, most business 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:03.960 books are written by men. And so I think if if 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.319 I think of women and us as a group of women saying, 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:08.900 what's the book that we're maybe a little bit 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:11.599 afraid to write? If people are listening and 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:15.160 wondering, I'm a woman, maybe I can or can't 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.420 write a book. And to maybe tip them over the 00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:20.839 edge a little bit. I think there's, you know, 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:23.220 I know in my book writing journey, more my second 00:17:23.220 --> 00:17:26.759 than my first, but I had many moments of I'm 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:29.400 just, I have nothing new to say. This has all 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.880 been written before. Why is what I'm saying anything 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:35.359 special? And, you know, who's going to want to 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:37.079 read? There's, there's gobs of leadership books 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:39.740 on the shelves. And so, so I think the message 00:17:39.740 --> 00:17:43.519 is, is when you write a book, yeah, sure, it's 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:46.420 on leadership or, you know, facilitating workshops 00:17:46.420 --> 00:17:50.039 or, or whatever innovation or, or, you know, 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:54.730 teams. What we're each bringing to it is our 00:17:54.730 --> 00:17:57.910 perspective. And so because so many books are 00:17:57.910 --> 00:18:01.529 written by men, I think that we need to have 00:18:01.529 --> 00:18:04.190 more women's perspectives on all of these topics. 00:18:05.379 --> 00:18:09.039 So I guess I, yeah, I just, I think that in that 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:10.619 journey there's going to be a lot of self -doubt 00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:13.240 and then just turn off the social media and go 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:16.079 for a walk and kind of reground yourself and 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.599 yeah, what I have to say is important and there 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:20.740 aren't a lot of other women maybe saying this 00:18:20.740 --> 00:18:23.259 and I want to make sure my message is shared. 00:18:23.740 --> 00:18:25.259 Yeah, I think that's really important and I'm 00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:28.019 noticing, I don't know if it's because I'm five 00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:31.619 years older and... you know perimenopause and 00:18:31.619 --> 00:18:34.779 all that but um I'm more I'm less confident now 00:18:34.779 --> 00:18:36.740 I think writing this second book that I am the 00:18:36.740 --> 00:18:39.140 first I don't know Pam you you seem to have figured 00:18:39.140 --> 00:18:41.420 it out the other way around right but I'm I'm 00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:44.279 questioning myself more thinking well what am 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:46.220 I talking about do I know what the hell I'm talking 00:18:46.220 --> 00:18:48.259 about is any doesn't everyone already know this 00:18:48.259 --> 00:18:51.190 and then I keep having to say No, they don't 00:18:51.190 --> 00:18:52.950 already know this because I work with clients 00:18:52.950 --> 00:18:56.069 all the time who don't know. Right. And we know 00:18:56.069 --> 00:18:58.269 are we're we're doing something. We're putting 00:18:58.269 --> 00:18:59.789 something out in the world that people don't 00:18:59.789 --> 00:19:01.609 know and they don't have. So we need to do it. 00:19:01.609 --> 00:19:04.009 But I'm really I wouldn't say I'm struggling, 00:19:04.089 --> 00:19:06.609 but I'm noticing it a lot more that little imposter 00:19:06.609 --> 00:19:09.650 syndrome on my shoulder trying to knock me off. 00:19:09.809 --> 00:19:14.069 Right. Pam, you're right in there. Oh, my goodness. 00:19:14.109 --> 00:19:17.230 I'm so glad you said that. No, I'm so glad you 00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:20.339 said that. Yes, I'm more. confident, maybe with 00:19:20.339 --> 00:19:23.720 what I know, but my confidence as a person is 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:26.200 worse and worse and worse every year. And this 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:28.400 is, you know, having done it for a long time. 00:19:28.420 --> 00:19:30.140 So you'd think it would be in the other direction. 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:33.039 So yeah, I, I completely agree with you. And 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:34.920 so it's something about our awareness becomes 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:36.839 so much bigger and you realize how much you don't 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.660 know. But to your point, Beth, I, there are some 00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:41.660 re it's kind of why I'm doing the TikToks. There's 00:19:41.660 --> 00:19:44.480 some really simple fun fundamental. And I don't 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.789 mean simple as in stupid, like there are some 00:19:47.789 --> 00:19:50.930 really simple, fundamental, important essences 00:19:50.930 --> 00:19:53.910 that actually people don't know and they haven't 00:19:53.910 --> 00:19:57.029 been empowered with. So I'm with you on both 00:19:57.029 --> 00:20:00.910 counts. How about you, Hannah? Yeah, like you, 00:20:00.990 --> 00:20:03.390 Beth, my second book I found much more challenging 00:20:03.390 --> 00:20:05.609 to write, which is, and you said that in your 00:20:05.609 --> 00:20:07.710 first book you interviewed a whole bunch of people 00:20:07.710 --> 00:20:09.829 to kind of validate. That was the other reason 00:20:09.829 --> 00:20:12.630 behind me interviewing leaders was to validate. 00:20:12.940 --> 00:20:16.059 what I thought maybe I should be saying. And 00:20:16.059 --> 00:20:18.779 yeah, I had to write it. It was harder to write, 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:21.799 so I had to write it. literally with a pencil 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:25.380 and paper. I ended up last summer going to a 00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:27.299 bunch of cottages in Northern Ontario, which 00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:30.059 was lovely. And I'd sit at, we call them Muskoka 00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:32.160 chairs, and in the States I think they call them 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:34.299 Adirondack chairs, but you lean back and they 00:20:34.299 --> 00:20:37.160 have these big armrests. So I would have my notebook 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:39.900 and pencil on one armrest and my eraser on the 00:20:39.900 --> 00:20:43.420 other armrest. And I had to do that. Yeah, it 00:20:43.420 --> 00:20:50.559 was a much more difficult book to write. I think 00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.400 it's because I was pushing myself. And I think, 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:54.599 Beth, maybe like you said, yours is more of a 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:57.359 memoir. And so that's more reflective and more 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.000 personal, which is maybe pushing yourself. And 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.660 so, Pam, you say you have more experience, but 00:21:02.660 --> 00:21:04.579 each year you maybe feel a little bit less confident. 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:09.059 I'm assuming that around this table, we all see 00:21:09.059 --> 00:21:12.220 ourselves as lifelong learners. And so when you... 00:21:12.220 --> 00:21:14.880 wear that lens or have that hat, you're always 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.859 pushing yourself and pushing yourself then means 00:21:17.859 --> 00:21:21.319 there's discomfort with it. So, Emily, I don't 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:23.180 know. I mean, you worked in the innovation space 00:21:23.180 --> 00:21:25.339 and that's a lot of pushing yourself to think 00:21:25.339 --> 00:21:27.380 differently and do stuff differently. So I don't 00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:28.619 know. I don't know if you have a perspective 00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:32.440 on that. Yeah, I feel like when you come from 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:34.519 that background, you feel pressure all the time 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:38.039 to throw yourself in the deep end and also to 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:42.069 practice what you preach. I taught people innovation 00:21:42.069 --> 00:21:44.509 skills for years. So if I don't start with the 00:21:44.509 --> 00:21:48.630 problem and the customer perspective and go through 00:21:48.630 --> 00:21:50.609 all of that kind of process, I know I'm doing 00:21:50.609 --> 00:21:53.549 it wrong and I call myself up on it. But I was 00:21:53.549 --> 00:21:55.970 reflecting on what you all were saying about 00:21:55.970 --> 00:21:58.690 having less confidence the second time around 00:21:58.690 --> 00:22:01.789 and thinking about what that might mean for me 00:22:01.789 --> 00:22:04.230 hypothetically if I do come back and write something 00:22:04.230 --> 00:22:06.650 else, because obviously I've only written the 00:22:06.650 --> 00:22:10.039 one thing, right? I guess what my anxiety would 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:14.380 be is that the first book journey started so 00:22:14.380 --> 00:22:17.259 organically that I didn't have to worry about 00:22:17.259 --> 00:22:19.680 self -censorship because I was just writing for 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:22.480 myself. I wasn't writing thinking, oh is this 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:24.099 good enough for someone else to read it? You 00:22:24.099 --> 00:22:27.180 know, that came later and part of me wonders 00:22:27.180 --> 00:22:29.980 coming back to it and trying to write something 00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:34.140 again if I would be able to be as uninhibited 00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.740 as I felt the first time it might be harder for 00:22:36.740 --> 00:22:38.940 me to get over that first hurdle because I may 00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:41.500 start writing and thinking that's not good enough 00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:43.819 whereas last time I didn't have that at all you 00:22:43.819 --> 00:22:46.859 know because it started from that place of oh 00:22:46.859 --> 00:22:50.099 well this is just this is just notes for me anyway 00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:55.220 so it'll be interesting to see if that if that 00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:57.619 sort of plays out but I'm aware we've talked 00:22:57.619 --> 00:23:00.279 a lot about our own books one question I wanted 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:04.740 to ask you all is what book you would recommend, 00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:08.319 I suppose, in the L &D space that everybody reads, 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.619 taking aside what we've written, obviously. Well, 00:23:12.619 --> 00:23:15.339 I interviewed someone on my podcast, Dr. Suzanne 00:23:15.339 --> 00:23:19.079 Wertheim, and she's in the States, and she wrote 00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:21.779 a book called The Inclusive Language Field Guide. 00:23:21.819 --> 00:23:23.920 I hope that's the right title because I'm going 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:27.500 from memory, but it was a great book. We're all 00:23:27.500 --> 00:23:30.480 having to think about language. We're all having 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:34.380 to think about language all the time now and 00:23:34.380 --> 00:23:38.039 inclusion of course, right? DEIA and she just 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:41.259 it's a really accessible book for all of us to 00:23:41.259 --> 00:23:43.960 read and just she was fabulous to talk to just 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.059 really knows her stuff and Yeah, great read inclusive 00:23:47.059 --> 00:23:51.109 language people guide. What about others? I'm 00:23:51.109 --> 00:23:53.130 going to recommend a book that I just found so 00:23:53.130 --> 00:23:55.730 brilliant, which is, and it's not necessarily 00:23:55.730 --> 00:23:58.390 in the L &D space, but it absolutely is in the 00:23:58.390 --> 00:24:01.029 space of our work and our lives. And it's Oliver 00:24:01.029 --> 00:24:05.210 Berkman, Meditations for Mortals. So he's a journalist 00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:09.230 who has made, he's done a lot of research around 00:24:09.230 --> 00:24:11.670 efficiency and time management, but what that's 00:24:11.670 --> 00:24:14.799 turned into is a real reflection on how we use 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:17.759 our time and our lives and how we value each 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:21.339 other's connection. And it's just groundbreaking 00:24:21.339 --> 00:24:23.500 from it was groundbreaking for me to read because 00:24:23.500 --> 00:24:26.039 it was all about how to prioritize what's right 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:28.140 and what's good. And one of the key messages 00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:30.819 is there's never enough time. So think carefully 00:24:30.819 --> 00:24:32.799 about how you spend your time. It's a wonderful 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:37.000 book. Emily, I have to The first one actually 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.200 isn't out quite yet. It's a colleague of mine 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:41.900 and he's a man, so I feel like I need to have 00:24:41.900 --> 00:24:45.119 a second book by a woman to compliment that. 00:24:46.339 --> 00:24:48.319 But a friend and colleague of mine, Matt Cross, 00:24:48.460 --> 00:24:51.500 wrote the Subtle Shifts. and it's coming out 00:24:51.500 --> 00:24:54.539 I think later this year. So it's leadership and 00:24:54.539 --> 00:24:56.940 it's about, instead of grandiose gestures, what 00:24:56.940 --> 00:24:59.740 are the small things that leaders can do to shift 00:24:59.740 --> 00:25:02.119 their own behavior and their team's behavior 00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:04.960 and things like that. And I've read snippets 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.559 of it as Matt was writing it, so I'm pretty excited 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:10.740 to read it when it comes out. The other one, 00:25:10.819 --> 00:25:13.960 and we were talking about when we tell stories 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:17.460 and how it surfaces emotions and energizes people. 00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:20.170 So then from a learning perspective, perspective, 00:25:20.190 --> 00:25:23.049 they retain it. So the other book is The Power 00:25:23.049 --> 00:25:26.089 of Story by a friend and colleague, Lisa Gerber. 00:25:26.789 --> 00:25:28.589 And so again, it's not in the learning and development 00:25:28.589 --> 00:25:30.589 space, but I think there's a lot of opportunity 00:25:30.589 --> 00:25:34.349 to take her messages and bring them into learning 00:25:34.349 --> 00:25:36.650 and development and recognizing, yeah, the power 00:25:36.650 --> 00:25:40.029 of story in terms of motivating people or helping 00:25:40.029 --> 00:25:43.809 people learn or remember. And yeah, lots of different 00:25:43.809 --> 00:25:46.289 applications, I suppose. How about you, Emily? 00:25:46.930 --> 00:25:48.470 Yeah, you're going to answer your own question? 00:25:49.210 --> 00:25:52.049 Yeah, you introduce these topics and then you 00:25:52.049 --> 00:25:53.950 hear it go round and you think, oh no, someone's 00:25:53.950 --> 00:25:56.549 going to ask me to answer that as well. And I 00:25:56.549 --> 00:25:58.910 think what comes to mind for me is The Culture 00:25:58.910 --> 00:26:01.210 Map by Erin Myers. I don't know if any of you 00:26:01.210 --> 00:26:05.349 have read that, but I have done a lot of work 00:26:05.349 --> 00:26:09.410 with global organizations where you're facilitating 00:26:09.410 --> 00:26:12.470 experiences for people coming from all sorts 00:26:12.470 --> 00:26:15.069 of different places. And reading that book for 00:26:15.069 --> 00:26:18.150 me was a real sort of kick yourself moment like 00:26:18.150 --> 00:26:22.150 oh man I wish I'd read this long before because 00:26:22.150 --> 00:26:26.630 when it comes to working across different cultures 00:26:26.630 --> 00:26:30.490 that's massive for creating inclusive engaging 00:26:30.490 --> 00:26:32.930 experiences for everyone you know and I feel 00:26:32.930 --> 00:26:36.809 like the book does that in a really good way 00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:40.349 thinking about these Each chapter is focused 00:26:40.349 --> 00:26:43.569 on a different element. So perception of time, 00:26:43.609 --> 00:26:45.990 for example, is one of them. Hierarchy is another 00:26:45.990 --> 00:26:49.289 one of them. And all of those come into creating 00:26:49.289 --> 00:26:53.089 good experiences. And so I always recommend that 00:26:53.089 --> 00:26:57.450 book. I love it. I think it's a really timely 00:26:57.450 --> 00:26:59.950 and necessary read for so many people when we 00:26:59.950 --> 00:27:04.490 do work in these organizations that are so decentralized 00:27:04.490 --> 00:27:07.430 and where We're in the fortunate position now 00:27:07.430 --> 00:27:09.490 that we get to work with people from all across 00:27:09.490 --> 00:27:12.589 the world. It's amazing. But we also need to 00:27:12.589 --> 00:27:15.509 think very actively about how to do that effectively. 00:27:15.670 --> 00:27:17.549 And I think that book's a great starting point 00:27:17.549 --> 00:27:21.069 for that sort of thing. This has been a lovely 00:27:21.069 --> 00:27:25.490 conversation. And I'm just wondering if anybody 00:27:25.490 --> 00:27:29.210 has any kind of... Last comments or last thoughts 00:27:29.210 --> 00:27:32.109 any thread that was or a seed that was planted 00:27:32.109 --> 00:27:34.309 earlier that you want to come back to to kind 00:27:34.309 --> 00:27:39.769 of as we wrap up maybe I'm quite struck by The 00:27:39.769 --> 00:27:42.450 points that were made in the later part of the 00:27:42.450 --> 00:27:44.930 conversation about the confidence to have an 00:27:44.930 --> 00:27:48.009 opinion the confidence to learn while writing 00:27:48.009 --> 00:27:52.210 or maybe write while learning And just crystallizing 00:27:52.210 --> 00:27:54.730 some of those thoughts that you all said about 00:27:55.569 --> 00:27:58.509 perhaps going on a journey to write a book, not 00:27:58.509 --> 00:28:00.609 because you're an expert, but to become an expert. 00:28:00.650 --> 00:28:03.250 I think that's really a fantastic thought. Thank 00:28:03.250 --> 00:28:05.589 you for that. It's really given me a little bit 00:28:05.589 --> 00:28:07.930 of a mindset shift. There's been so many good 00:28:07.930 --> 00:28:11.150 points. I think maybe it was you, Hannah, that 00:28:11.150 --> 00:28:14.470 said we could consider ourselves authors if we're 00:28:14.470 --> 00:28:16.769 authoring all sorts of different types of materials, 00:28:16.829 --> 00:28:18.569 right? It doesn't have to be just, you know, 00:28:18.910 --> 00:28:21.670 a book of 300 pages or whatever it is. It can 00:28:21.670 --> 00:28:24.869 be TikToks. It could be podcasts. It can be... 00:28:24.809 --> 00:28:28.970 anything that is accessible to people and whatever 00:28:28.970 --> 00:28:32.769 works for them. It can be, you know, well, visual. 00:28:33.069 --> 00:28:35.410 Emily, you talked about visuals. So, you know, 00:28:35.529 --> 00:28:38.349 it's accessible to be an author in our field 00:28:38.349 --> 00:28:42.250 in whatever way works for us. So I appreciated 00:28:42.250 --> 00:28:46.730 that. Thank you. Yeah, I can add something that 00:28:46.730 --> 00:28:48.789 I hope we're all feeling, which is a call to 00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:52.660 action. encouraging others if you are listening 00:28:52.660 --> 00:28:54.539 to this because you've thought, well, I'm in 00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:57.799 L &D and maybe I've got a book in me. Just go 00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:03.960 ahead and start it. Take those first steps. Confidence 00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.519 is a doing thing. It's not something that we 00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:10.000 can pick up one day off the shelf and say, yes, 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.259 I have confidence to do this. We build it by 00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:16.019 repeated action. So it's taking those first steps. 00:29:16.909 --> 00:29:19.029 And hopefully I speak to everyone when I say 00:29:19.029 --> 00:29:21.690 if you are writing something and you want someone 00:29:21.690 --> 00:29:24.170 to talk to who's been through it, reach out. 00:29:24.910 --> 00:29:27.309 Everyone's nodding. I'm so glad. Imagine if you 00:29:27.309 --> 00:29:28.930 will start shaking your heads at this point. 00:29:29.829 --> 00:29:32.549 But yeah, absolutely. Go about it and remember 00:29:32.549 --> 00:29:35.990 that there's a community here to support you. 00:29:37.230 --> 00:29:38.730 How about you, Hannah? Oh, I knew you were going 00:29:38.730 --> 00:29:40.650 to come back to me and I was thinking that maybe 00:29:40.650 --> 00:29:42.829 me asking the question was going to be sufficient. 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.799 Look at how we're all facilitators on this call, 00:29:49.099 --> 00:29:53.220 authors and facilitators. If I had an overall 00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:55.740 comment, I think I would just go back, Pam, to 00:29:55.740 --> 00:29:57.599 what you said at the beginning. You said, you 00:29:57.599 --> 00:29:59.220 know, I bought all your books and you were going 00:29:59.220 --> 00:30:02.589 through it and so just the... The overlap and 00:30:02.589 --> 00:30:04.849 the synergy and the connection of this conversation 00:30:04.849 --> 00:30:07.269 I think has been beautiful. And I knew Beth at 00:30:07.269 --> 00:30:09.210 the beginning, but now I feel like I know Emily, 00:30:09.289 --> 00:30:14.109 you and Pam as well. And so grateful to have 00:30:14.109 --> 00:30:18.250 you in my network as well. And yeah, Emily, if 00:30:18.250 --> 00:30:20.690 there are listeners who want to reach out to 00:30:20.690 --> 00:30:24.130 consider us or me in your network of somebody 00:30:24.130 --> 00:30:26.509 who you can talk to. So yeah, lovely spending 00:30:26.509 --> 00:30:28.589 this time with you. It has been lovely. Thank 00:30:28.589 --> 00:30:32.170 you. Thank you. I agree. Thanks so much. This 00:30:32.170 --> 00:30:34.210 was such a fantastic recording to be involved 00:30:34.210 --> 00:30:36.490 in and we hope these episodes will have a long 00:30:36.490 --> 00:30:39.349 tale as people come back to them. We're incredibly 00:30:39.349 --> 00:30:41.690 lucky to have Hannah, Pam, Beth and Emily sharing 00:30:41.690 --> 00:30:43.930 their knowledge in writing books within learning 00:30:43.930 --> 00:30:46.769 and development. Please do let us know what stood 00:30:46.769 --> 00:30:50.410 out to you. A massive thank you to them for their 00:30:50.410 --> 00:30:52.750 time and you'll find all their details along 00:30:52.750 --> 00:30:54.569 with links to the subjects they spoke about in 00:30:54.569 --> 00:30:58.210 the show notes. We're back in a couple of weeks 00:30:58.210 --> 00:31:02.539 and next time it's The Data One. As always, thanks 00:31:02.539 --> 00:31:04.480 for listening and we'll see you again soon.