Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the
LND Books One, part two of the Women Talking
About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. This
is the second part of this podcast. If you haven't
listened to part one, please do go back and listen
to the previous episode. In this part, our guests
Hannah, Pam, Beth and Emily discuss the difficulties
and doubts they encountered when writing and
also share their book recommendations for us
to read. So settle back, grab a drink and enjoy.
I know Hannah's talked a lot about her book writing
process, especially the second one, I think,
right, Hannah on LinkedIn? Yeah, very similar
to you, Emily. I decided I was in a program and
a mentor said that you should spend as much time
promoting your book as writing your book. And
I thought, oh, OK, so you should. Post on LinkedIn
every week. So so I did that starting with my
first book now I wasn't as brave as you and I
didn't do videos but but every Friday and I'm
still doing it so it's been a couple years now
my first book and my second book and anyways
yeah posted every Friday some kind of update
about my book so here's three covers which do
you like best or I'm struggling you said earlier
that you struggled with the title so here's you
know four title options what combinations are
best and or even just kind of content or IP that
I was thinking through and that kind of thing
so yeah I think I agree, Emily, with everything
you said, that the accountability, that writing
in public gives you the opportunity to get feedback
on what you're doing. And it means that, yeah,
when it's out in the world, it's not in a vacuum,
and people know about it, and there's some excitement
there, which feels good, because I think, you
know, as women in this virtual space here, it's
like having a baby, right? Like you work so hard
on writing this, and then when it finally comes
out, you're like, I don't know what it's actually
going to look like. But then you want to be excited.
about it and so I think having that accountability
and that regular cadence, Emily, I agree, is
really helpful for that. I'm using the same process
now and trying to post on LinkedIn every week
or every two weeks because I thought the same
thing that it would keep me accountable and actually
get to the finish line even though I could do
it because I did it before and this is book number
two but in some ways I think I'm doing it also
to help other people and maybe other women particularly
out there know that it's not all easy to write
a book. There's times where I'm doubting myself
and questioning whether I know anything. And
I do know, and I have a lot of ego actually healthy
about doing this work and I've got a company
and all the things, right? But I think maybe
just the older I get, the more I realize I don't
know as well, that whole thing. And so I just
want to show. both sides of, yeah, I'm really
proud of what I'm doing and as I'm doing it,
but also that it's hard and we can do hard things
and we can get over that and we can tell the
real story of what it means to write behind the
scenes. It's hard work. I don't know. Pam, have
you thought that about just showing kind of all
the things about the writing process? Yeah, it
is. It is hard work. And I agree with you completely.
But we also know, don't we, that most books,
most business books are written by men. And there
are very few business books written by women.
And so I completely agree that I that it's important
for us to show the journey and show that it's
possible and show that we that we can make stuff
up to, you know, it doesn't, I think similar
to you, Beth, in the beginning of my writing
journey, I felt like I had to find science for
everything, because it wasn't enough that I'd
experienced it. And now, you know, I'm just more
like, well, I know this works. And Emily, you
mentioned at the beginning of the conversation
about the different platforms, you know, we can
listen to books now we can have short form things.
Has anyone started experimenting on TikTok at
all? Because I'm only very early into my book
talk TikTok journey. And I have to say I'm loving
it okay I'm not very good at producing the video
so I have a social media producer who is amazing
her name is Holly and she's excellent but what
what it's helped me to do is just access that
short form learning. Cause what's driving me
is not book sales. Uh, you know, it's not, not
necessarily being, uh, you know, a famous author.
Absolutely. But what's driving me is I really
believe in this stuff and I know I can help other
people to do their jobs better. I know I can.
And so it's been really interesting putting those
into one minute or two minute long videos, because
there's so many snippets, which are a little
story or a little piece of advice or when something
went wrong. And I'm just loving it. It's given
me such energy. So I'm trying to do not so much
LinkedIn posts, but I'm What I do then post them
on LinkedIn in a separate space, but I'm trying
to do at least one or two TikToks a week is my
thing, and I'm enjoying it. Pam, you are a brave
soul. I do short videos on LinkedIn and I have
for a while, but I have not ventured into TikTok.
And I guess the thought that's bubbling to the
surface for me listening to you is that if we...
broaden our definition of book and if we recognize
we're all authors, we can be authors in different
formats. So we can author newsletters, we can
author books, we can author podcasts, we can
author TikTok videos. It's all about sharing
our thoughts and ideas with the world and how
we envision that supporting kind of learning
and women. So kudos to you, Pam. I haven't taken
that leap myself. I think you'd find it easy
though, Hannah, because you've got so many stories.
And that's what I rely on. And I don't always
know. Like sometimes, some weeks, I just think,
I've no idea. And then I think, I'm not going
to post anything. There's no point in forcing
it. But then sometimes I think, oh, I must tell
that story. And so, and I feel like that's the
person, and I've had to become much more authentic,
not worry about making a mistake. You know, there's
lots of learning that I've had to do about it,
but. I mean, apart from the fact that I'm not
actually editing my own TikToks, the actual process
of it has been really, and I'm sure you'd be
all would be brilliant at it if you're not doing
it already. I like this point about being authentic,
Pam, because I think when I was doing the video,
I'm also not doing the book talk. I mean, very,
very impressive. But this point about authenticity
is something that can be a real challenge, but
it's also a space where we should be ambassadors
because when especially when I first started
doing it, you know, I would try and take the
video loads and loads of times thinking I don't
look good. People are going to look at me and
they're going to think I wouldn't buy a book
from her. I wouldn't learn something or thinking
I didn't do exactly perfect or I stumbled or
any of these kinds of things and then at one
point I thought enough you know part of doing
this is showing that it's okay to create content
and just put it out there because if you're not
doing it other people are and I think it's it's
really hard for women in particular not to self
censor and self edit and think that things need
to be perfect and therefore not put it out there
where what we need is more content from women
showing it's okay to be authentic and do your
first take and send it out there because you
have something to share with people. So yeah,
I think it's massively, massively important.
100%. I have a question, Emily, based on what
you said there. So if you have to, Beth, you're
already writing your next book. So maybe, I don't
know if you would answer this differently or...
cite the book that you've already started. But
for each of us, if we think about, if we wrote
another book, what's the next book in us? And
what's the book that's a little bit scary to
write? Like if we're going to be authentic and
true to who we are, what's the book that we could
write that would maybe push us a little bit into
a space that feels a bit unfamiliar? Do you have
another book in you, each of you? Pam, you're
nodding your head. What's yours? I'm laughing
because my... Every time I write the books, I
say, I'm not going to do that again. Cause it's
so hard, right? Anyway, I do have a, I'll, I'll,
I'll relax and then I'll, I have another book
in me, which is probably how to run a female
centric business or from a female perspective.
I need a better name than that because like you.
Beth, like, I think probably like all of us,
we have our own businesses. And yes, so I feel
like I've got some things to say about that,
but actually laughing because I'm, I, as a result
of all of this writing journey, and I wasn't
always a writer, Emily, like you, I did a part
-time creative writing degree and a master's
degree. And I'm now writing a corporate murder
mystery. um which is also well basically all
of the trauma in a in a fictional form nice and
so that's my that's you know that's also my next
book How about you guys? I have another book
idea. I was going to write it second and I started
and did a solo writing retreat on it and then
I decided it was going to be a little bit too
much work and I'm going to do this one first
and then return to the other idea. But the other
idea is to go and interview people that work
in other fields where they also create an experience
for usually a group. you know musicians or auctioneers
or clowns or you know creative folk like that
and then just say how do you create that experience
and what do you do in your field to do that and
then what can we take from that to apply back
to the world of facilitation. So that's my next
idea and I've got a whole Scrivener file set
up to you know got all sorts of stuff in there
and it just kind of parked and waiting and who
knows when I'll return but gotta finish this
one first. That sounds amazing. I love that book,
that book idea, because everything we do is creating
immersive experiences. Yeah. So get all of that
inspiration. What a wonderful idea, Beth. Well,
I mean, in a micro scale, I started to interview
people and I interviewed a humanitarian clown
and I put it up on my podcast. So it's there
if anyone wants to listen to it. just to listen
to this man and how he's in Quebec, in Canada,
and he goes into long -term care facilities and
as a humanitarian, or as a therapeutic clown
in that context, he's also a humanitarian clown,
and to listen to the skills that he has been
taught and brings, you know, in the clowning
experience, which is not about laughter, ha ha,
right? It's more about connecting with people.
Fascinating, fascinating to just hear it and
think, well, what can we learn from that about
connecting even without words or listening to
the person or using body language or it's just
like right you can tell i'm all excited you know
because it's just fascinating to to learn from
other fields and maybe Emily i'll turn it back
to you because you said you were coming from
the world of innovation and that's that's where
it all comes from right we could be more innovative
when we look at other fields and bring it back
to what we know in ours right definitely call
me there Yeah, definitely. I mean, it sounds
like an amazing book. One thing that I love to
do outside of work is amateur musical theatre.
So I've done many, many shows. And yeah, I see
it as being also an act of facilitation. This
is one of the things that I talk about in the
book that I think something that drew me to facilitation
in the first place was that similar feeling of
creating an environment where people are happy
and they feel drawn into something that really
speaks to them, you know. But on the book question,
so two more thoughts. I mean, according to Hannah's
categorisation of what's the one you're thinking
about and what would be the scary option, I have
something that's come to mind for both. So on
the first one, the what comes next, I have a
phrase that I've been turning over in my mind
for ages of workshopify your expertise. In my
business, I do quite a lot of one -to -one work.
Coming from a place where I was doing mostly
corporate training, it's been a real joy to work
with people one -on -one. And a lot of the people
I work with are people who are coming from a
field of expertise. Let's say it's organizational
culture or it might be branding, for example,
and they haven't done it before, but now as self
-employed people, they want to start running
workshops and trainings for the first times for
their clients and they want to understand how
to workshopify their expertise and I'm helping
take them through that process so that's kind
of generating its own thing that I want to write
about. The scary option would be something I
see coming up time and time again talking to
other self -employed facilitators which is people
always say, I hate sales and I can't do sales.
And I really believe that sales is an act of
facilitation. What puts me off from writing that
book is, although I've done plenty of sales in
my time, I just don't feel like I'm the expert
enough to write the book. That's me just being
open and vulnerable about how that topic feels
to me, which is why it would be the scary choice.
But I think it's something that is... needed
and necessary within the community that we all
exist in. I honestly do. And Emily, when, not
if, when you write that book, what a beautiful
story that could come out about your own fear
about, I'm not an expert, I can't write about
this, but... but yes, I can and look at the confidence
and what I can share with you. So you could take
your own lived experience as a way of telling
that story and sharing with others who maybe
are feeling a little bit like, ooh, I can't do
this. So it'd be a nice path forward, I think.
It'd be beautiful. I agree. I think from a...
From a metacognitive perspective, like when we
teach, we have to tell our students or our learners
what was difficult for us when we were learning
the thing or doing the thing. And just, I think
that's the reason why you have to write that
book, Emily, and tell the full story about, you
know, like the doubt, right? I've talked a lot
about doubt and just making mistakes and all
that kind of stuff. Every time I do a solo episode
of my podcast, I'm trying to mine my experience
and tell the hard things, right? I'm not on TikTok,
but that's what I use the podcast for in some
respects, right? And just we have to tell each
other the full story and we have to write those
books. So if people are out there listening thinking
they can't do this, like get that out of your
head right now, you know, because you can, we
all can. But Hannah, you didn't answer your own
question, I don't think. What's your next book?
You're right, you're right. Matthew caught me.
So I think, I feel like... AI is all around us
and it's so disruptive, depending on your perspective,
it's so disruptive where there's so much opportunity.
And I think there's something there. So it's
both a possible next book and something I'm afraid
to write. Maybe Emily from the same perspective
that I don't feel like I'm an AI expert. I'm
dipping my toe into it and I'm partnering with
a colleague who is. So looking at What's learning
and development, or even HR, if you want to think
more broadly, what's their role in supporting
organizations when they're implementing or using
AI so that it can be done successfully? So in
a learning context, how do you get your employees
ready? for this so that they're going to be able
to embrace it and see the innovation in it and
not the fear in it maybe. And so it's just a
really small kernel. But like you, Pam, every
time I read it, I'm like, I'm not writing another
book. But it sits there at the back of your head
churning, right? So yeah, I think there's something
there that I'm curious about anyways that I want
to scratch the surface a little bit on. So yeah.
But back to the topic, what you're doing there
as the author is facilitating it, aren't you?
or Emily, you'd be facilitating that topic by
bringing it out by not feeling like you have
to be the one who's got all the answers. Yeah,
for sure. And seeing it again as that act of
refining your own process, I suppose, because
going back to the way that I wrote the first
book, I know that writing that book about sales
as an act of facilitation would make me a far
better salesperson, you know, it would force
me to codify, to formalize, to learn from others,
to research. And I'm sure I would come out far
stronger from the process. So I think I'm going
to do it. I feel inspired. And I'd love to read
your book, Hannah, and yours, Beth. They sound
amazing. I think too, and sorry, Emily and Pam,
I can't remember which one of you said this,
but was talking about, you know, most business
books are written by men. And so I think if if
I think of women and us as a group of women saying,
what's the book that we're maybe a little bit
afraid to write? If people are listening and
wondering, I'm a woman, maybe I can or can't
write a book. And to maybe tip them over the
edge a little bit. I think there's, you know,
I know in my book writing journey, more my second
than my first, but I had many moments of I'm
just, I have nothing new to say. This has all
been written before. Why is what I'm saying anything
special? And, you know, who's going to want to
read? There's, there's gobs of leadership books
on the shelves. And so, so I think the message
is, is when you write a book, yeah, sure, it's
on leadership or, you know, facilitating workshops
or, or whatever innovation or, or, you know,
teams. What we're each bringing to it is our
perspective. And so because so many books are
written by men, I think that we need to have
more women's perspectives on all of these topics.
So I guess I, yeah, I just, I think that in that
journey there's going to be a lot of self -doubt
and then just turn off the social media and go
for a walk and kind of reground yourself and
yeah, what I have to say is important and there
aren't a lot of other women maybe saying this
and I want to make sure my message is shared.
Yeah, I think that's really important and I'm
noticing, I don't know if it's because I'm five
years older and... you know perimenopause and
all that but um I'm more I'm less confident now
I think writing this second book that I am the
first I don't know Pam you you seem to have figured
it out the other way around right but I'm I'm
questioning myself more thinking well what am
I talking about do I know what the hell I'm talking
about is any doesn't everyone already know this
and then I keep having to say No, they don't
already know this because I work with clients
all the time who don't know. Right. And we know
are we're we're doing something. We're putting
something out in the world that people don't
know and they don't have. So we need to do it.
But I'm really I wouldn't say I'm struggling,
but I'm noticing it a lot more that little imposter
syndrome on my shoulder trying to knock me off.
Right. Pam, you're right in there. Oh, my goodness.
I'm so glad you said that. No, I'm so glad you
said that. Yes, I'm more. confident, maybe with
what I know, but my confidence as a person is
worse and worse and worse every year. And this
is, you know, having done it for a long time.
So you'd think it would be in the other direction.
So yeah, I, I completely agree with you. And
so it's something about our awareness becomes
so much bigger and you realize how much you don't
know. But to your point, Beth, I, there are some
re it's kind of why I'm doing the TikToks. There's
some really simple fun fundamental. And I don't
mean simple as in stupid, like there are some
really simple, fundamental, important essences
that actually people don't know and they haven't
been empowered with. So I'm with you on both
counts. How about you, Hannah? Yeah, like you,
Beth, my second book I found much more challenging
to write, which is, and you said that in your
first book you interviewed a whole bunch of people
to kind of validate. That was the other reason
behind me interviewing leaders was to validate.
what I thought maybe I should be saying. And
yeah, I had to write it. It was harder to write,
so I had to write it. literally with a pencil
and paper. I ended up last summer going to a
bunch of cottages in Northern Ontario, which
was lovely. And I'd sit at, we call them Muskoka
chairs, and in the States I think they call them
Adirondack chairs, but you lean back and they
have these big armrests. So I would have my notebook
and pencil on one armrest and my eraser on the
other armrest. And I had to do that. Yeah, it
was a much more difficult book to write. I think
it's because I was pushing myself. And I think,
Beth, maybe like you said, yours is more of a
memoir. And so that's more reflective and more
personal, which is maybe pushing yourself. And
so, Pam, you say you have more experience, but
each year you maybe feel a little bit less confident.
I'm assuming that around this table, we all see
ourselves as lifelong learners. And so when you...
wear that lens or have that hat, you're always
pushing yourself and pushing yourself then means
there's discomfort with it. So, Emily, I don't
know. I mean, you worked in the innovation space
and that's a lot of pushing yourself to think
differently and do stuff differently. So I don't
know. I don't know if you have a perspective
on that. Yeah, I feel like when you come from
that background, you feel pressure all the time
to throw yourself in the deep end and also to
practice what you preach. I taught people innovation
skills for years. So if I don't start with the
problem and the customer perspective and go through
all of that kind of process, I know I'm doing
it wrong and I call myself up on it. But I was
reflecting on what you all were saying about
having less confidence the second time around
and thinking about what that might mean for me
hypothetically if I do come back and write something
else, because obviously I've only written the
one thing, right? I guess what my anxiety would
be is that the first book journey started so
organically that I didn't have to worry about
self -censorship because I was just writing for
myself. I wasn't writing thinking, oh is this
good enough for someone else to read it? You
know, that came later and part of me wonders
coming back to it and trying to write something
again if I would be able to be as uninhibited
as I felt the first time it might be harder for
me to get over that first hurdle because I may
start writing and thinking that's not good enough
whereas last time I didn't have that at all you
know because it started from that place of oh
well this is just this is just notes for me anyway
so it'll be interesting to see if that if that
sort of plays out but I'm aware we've talked
a lot about our own books one question I wanted
to ask you all is what book you would recommend,
I suppose, in the L &D space that everybody reads,
taking aside what we've written, obviously. Well,
I interviewed someone on my podcast, Dr. Suzanne
Wertheim, and she's in the States, and she wrote
a book called The Inclusive Language Field Guide.
I hope that's the right title because I'm going
from memory, but it was a great book. We're all
having to think about language. We're all having
to think about language all the time now and
inclusion of course, right? DEIA and she just
it's a really accessible book for all of us to
read and just she was fabulous to talk to just
really knows her stuff and Yeah, great read inclusive
language people guide. What about others? I'm
going to recommend a book that I just found so
brilliant, which is, and it's not necessarily
in the L &D space, but it absolutely is in the
space of our work and our lives. And it's Oliver
Berkman, Meditations for Mortals. So he's a journalist
who has made, he's done a lot of research around
efficiency and time management, but what that's
turned into is a real reflection on how we use
our time and our lives and how we value each
other's connection. And it's just groundbreaking
from it was groundbreaking for me to read because
it was all about how to prioritize what's right
and what's good. And one of the key messages
is there's never enough time. So think carefully
about how you spend your time. It's a wonderful
book. Emily, I have to The first one actually
isn't out quite yet. It's a colleague of mine
and he's a man, so I feel like I need to have
a second book by a woman to compliment that.
But a friend and colleague of mine, Matt Cross,
wrote the Subtle Shifts. and it's coming out
I think later this year. So it's leadership and
it's about, instead of grandiose gestures, what
are the small things that leaders can do to shift
their own behavior and their team's behavior
and things like that. And I've read snippets
of it as Matt was writing it, so I'm pretty excited
to read it when it comes out. The other one,
and we were talking about when we tell stories
and how it surfaces emotions and energizes people.
So then from a learning perspective, perspective,
they retain it. So the other book is The Power
of Story by a friend and colleague, Lisa Gerber.
And so again, it's not in the learning and development
space, but I think there's a lot of opportunity
to take her messages and bring them into learning
and development and recognizing, yeah, the power
of story in terms of motivating people or helping
people learn or remember. And yeah, lots of different
applications, I suppose. How about you, Emily?
Yeah, you're going to answer your own question?
Yeah, you introduce these topics and then you
hear it go round and you think, oh no, someone's
going to ask me to answer that as well. And I
think what comes to mind for me is The Culture
Map by Erin Myers. I don't know if any of you
have read that, but I have done a lot of work
with global organizations where you're facilitating
experiences for people coming from all sorts
of different places. And reading that book for
me was a real sort of kick yourself moment like
oh man I wish I'd read this long before because
when it comes to working across different cultures
that's massive for creating inclusive engaging
experiences for everyone you know and I feel
like the book does that in a really good way
thinking about these Each chapter is focused
on a different element. So perception of time,
for example, is one of them. Hierarchy is another
one of them. And all of those come into creating
good experiences. And so I always recommend that
book. I love it. I think it's a really timely
and necessary read for so many people when we
do work in these organizations that are so decentralized
and where We're in the fortunate position now
that we get to work with people from all across
the world. It's amazing. But we also need to
think very actively about how to do that effectively.
And I think that book's a great starting point
for that sort of thing. This has been a lovely
conversation. And I'm just wondering if anybody
has any kind of... Last comments or last thoughts
any thread that was or a seed that was planted
earlier that you want to come back to to kind
of as we wrap up maybe I'm quite struck by The
points that were made in the later part of the
conversation about the confidence to have an
opinion the confidence to learn while writing
or maybe write while learning And just crystallizing
some of those thoughts that you all said about
perhaps going on a journey to write a book, not
because you're an expert, but to become an expert.
I think that's really a fantastic thought. Thank
you for that. It's really given me a little bit
of a mindset shift. There's been so many good
points. I think maybe it was you, Hannah, that
said we could consider ourselves authors if we're
authoring all sorts of different types of materials,
right? It doesn't have to be just, you know,
a book of 300 pages or whatever it is. It can
be TikToks. It could be podcasts. It can be...
anything that is accessible to people and whatever
works for them. It can be, you know, well, visual.
Emily, you talked about visuals. So, you know,
it's accessible to be an author in our field
in whatever way works for us. So I appreciated
that. Thank you. Yeah, I can add something that
I hope we're all feeling, which is a call to
action. encouraging others if you are listening
to this because you've thought, well, I'm in
L &D and maybe I've got a book in me. Just go
ahead and start it. Take those first steps. Confidence
is a doing thing. It's not something that we
can pick up one day off the shelf and say, yes,
I have confidence to do this. We build it by
repeated action. So it's taking those first steps.
And hopefully I speak to everyone when I say
if you are writing something and you want someone
to talk to who's been through it, reach out.
Everyone's nodding. I'm so glad. Imagine if you
will start shaking your heads at this point.
But yeah, absolutely. Go about it and remember
that there's a community here to support you.
How about you, Hannah? Oh, I knew you were going
to come back to me and I was thinking that maybe
me asking the question was going to be sufficient.
Look at how we're all facilitators on this call,
authors and facilitators. If I had an overall
comment, I think I would just go back, Pam, to
what you said at the beginning. You said, you
know, I bought all your books and you were going
through it and so just the... The overlap and
the synergy and the connection of this conversation
I think has been beautiful. And I knew Beth at
the beginning, but now I feel like I know Emily,
you and Pam as well. And so grateful to have
you in my network as well. And yeah, Emily, if
there are listeners who want to reach out to
consider us or me in your network of somebody
who you can talk to. So yeah, lovely spending
this time with you. It has been lovely. Thank
you. Thank you. I agree. Thanks so much. This
was such a fantastic recording to be involved
in and we hope these episodes will have a long
tale as people come back to them. We're incredibly
lucky to have Hannah, Pam, Beth and Emily sharing
their knowledge in writing books within learning
and development. Please do let us know what stood
out to you. A massive thank you to them for their
time and you'll find all their details along
with links to the subjects they spoke about in
the show notes. We're back in a couple of weeks
and next time it's The Data One. As always, thanks
for listening and we'll see you again soon.