WEBVTT 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:14.320 Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:16.160 the L &D Books, one of the Women Talking About 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:19.899 Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. Originally, 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:22.800 this was going to be one episode, but as our 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:24.559 guests had so much they wanted to share with 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:27.760 us, we decided to make it a two -parter. In this 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:30.480 part, our guests discuss their own books and 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.000 we'll hear more about writing in general in part 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:35.500 two. To help us get a greater understanding of 00:00:35.500 --> 00:00:38.140 what it's like to write a book we have four awesome 00:00:38.140 --> 00:00:40.619 guests who have all written different books for 00:00:40.619 --> 00:00:44.219 L &D. Two are from Canada and two from the UK. 00:00:45.340 --> 00:00:48.039 Our first guest is Hannah Brown. With 25 years 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:50.539 in learning development, Hannah bridges the gap 00:00:50.539 --> 00:00:52.880 between formal training and learning embedded 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:55.880 in Teams. Her latest book, Into the Hands of 00:00:55.880 --> 00:00:58.039 Leaders, Employee Growth Through Learning, reflects 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:00.179 the need for organisations to move training out 00:01:00.179 --> 00:01:02.380 of the classroom and into the hands of leaders, 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:05.060 where they build cultures of learning. Our second 00:01:05.060 --> 00:01:08.180 guest is Beth Kugler -Blom. Beth is a facilitator 00:01:08.180 --> 00:01:10.640 and learning designer who creates impactful meetings 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:12.739 and learning experiences for clients through 00:01:12.739 --> 00:01:16.890 her company, BCB Learning Inc. Beth is the author 00:01:16.890 --> 00:01:19.709 of Design to Engage, How to Create and Facilitate 00:01:19.709 --> 00:01:21.950 a Great Learning Experience for Any Group, and 00:01:21.950 --> 00:01:24.609 is the host of the Facilitating on Purpose podcast. 00:01:25.310 --> 00:01:28.530 Our next guest is Pam Hamilton. Pam is a collective 00:01:28.530 --> 00:01:31.129 intelligence expert and author of the workshop 00:01:31.129 --> 00:01:33.890 book, How to Design and Lead Successful Workshops 00:01:33.890 --> 00:01:37.230 and Supercharged Teams, 30 Tools of Great Teamwork. 00:01:37.890 --> 00:01:39.909 She is the founder of Queen's Award -winning 00:01:39.909 --> 00:01:44.090 innovation and capability agency, Parafin. Our 00:01:44.090 --> 00:01:47.489 final guest is Emily Gardner. Emily is a trainer, 00:01:47.870 --> 00:01:50.349 facilitator and author of The Path of the Guide, 00:01:50.810 --> 00:01:53.250 a framework for effective corporate facilitation. 00:01:54.150 --> 00:01:56.489 She specialises in facilitation and innovation 00:01:56.489 --> 00:01:58.790 skills for corporates and also has a coaching 00:01:58.790 --> 00:02:01.609 practice supporting facilitators to scale their 00:02:01.609 --> 00:02:06.609 impact. Recorded in July 2025, this is such an 00:02:06.609 --> 00:02:09.270 engaging conversation. This is women talking 00:02:09.270 --> 00:02:13.090 about learning. This is Hannah, Pam, Beth and 00:02:13.090 --> 00:02:18.729 Emily talking about L &D books. Hi, Beth. It's 00:02:18.729 --> 00:02:20.949 great to see you again. I know that you're in 00:02:20.949 --> 00:02:23.430 BC. How's it going over there? What are you up 00:02:23.430 --> 00:02:25.969 to these days? I'm visiting a friend, so I'm 00:02:25.969 --> 00:02:28.330 not even in my regular office, but I'm really 00:02:28.330 --> 00:02:30.210 happy to be with you, Hannah. Nice to see you 00:02:30.210 --> 00:02:33.250 again and also with Pam and Emily. So I'll say 00:02:33.250 --> 00:02:36.620 hi to Pam. Pam, how are you doing today? Good 00:02:36.620 --> 00:02:39.139 thanks, Beth. Nice to meet you as well, Hannah, 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:41.500 and great to meet you, Emily. So we've got two 00:02:41.500 --> 00:02:44.199 people in Canada, two people in the UK. How about 00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:46.740 you, Emily? How are you today? Yeah, I'm good, 00:02:46.780 --> 00:02:49.240 thank you. I mean, good to meet all of you, since 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:53.219 I didn't know anybody before I joined today's 00:02:53.219 --> 00:02:57.419 call. I guess it's just so interesting to hear 00:02:57.419 --> 00:03:00.400 about why everybody's here. So I don't know. 00:03:00.580 --> 00:03:02.300 I mean, Hannah, you kicked us off. So I don't 00:03:02.300 --> 00:03:03.860 know if you want to share a little bit about 00:03:03.860 --> 00:03:07.000 why While you're here on this episode, what is 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:09.780 it about L &D books that you really wanted to 00:03:09.780 --> 00:03:14.539 talk about? Yeah, for sure. Thanks, Emily. So 00:03:14.539 --> 00:03:16.639 I wrote my book. It's actually my second book. 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:19.039 It's called Into the Hands of Leaders, Employee 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:21.719 Growth Through Learning. And I've been working 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:24.259 in learning and development for probably 25 years, 00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:26.319 which makes me feel really old, but that's the 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:30.319 truth of it. And I guess over that time, I've 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:33.650 realized that Yes, and most of that time has 00:03:33.650 --> 00:03:36.530 been working in kind of designing formal training 00:03:36.530 --> 00:03:38.090 programs, working with learning and development 00:03:38.090 --> 00:03:40.629 departments, things like that, trainers, facilitators, 00:03:41.009 --> 00:03:44.110 and that there's an important role for formal 00:03:44.110 --> 00:03:46.770 training, but also realizing that there's so 00:03:46.770 --> 00:03:49.150 much learning that happens on the job and in 00:03:49.150 --> 00:03:52.030 formal learning. And so the book is really about... 00:03:52.300 --> 00:03:54.560 how can we take some of that learning and put 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:56.740 it into the hands of leaders and help leaders 00:03:56.740 --> 00:03:59.740 create a culture of learning so that we can reinforce 00:03:59.740 --> 00:04:02.159 the learning that's already happening and promote 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.740 it a little bit more. So that's my book and I'm 00:04:05.740 --> 00:04:08.319 clearly passionate about it and I know, Pam, 00:04:08.340 --> 00:04:10.460 that you got all of our books and you were saying 00:04:10.460 --> 00:04:12.960 earlier that there's so much alignment between 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:16.000 what we're all saying in our books. So I'm excited 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.220 to hear a little bit more about everybody else's 00:04:18.220 --> 00:04:20.360 and where all the synergies and overlaps are. 00:04:21.709 --> 00:04:24.329 Yeah, it's a good point. So Hannah, I did buy 00:04:24.329 --> 00:04:28.629 all of our books before this recording and I've 00:04:28.629 --> 00:04:31.230 had a quick look through and it's just amazing. 00:04:31.310 --> 00:04:33.490 We come from completely different backgrounds 00:04:33.490 --> 00:04:35.970 and places, but we've got so many things in common 00:04:35.970 --> 00:04:37.610 about what we're saying. You know, we're saying 00:04:37.610 --> 00:04:41.420 things like, Today's working world is so pressured, 00:04:42.180 --> 00:04:44.639 so difficult. There's so much change fatigue. 00:04:44.980 --> 00:04:47.779 People have no attention spans. And yet learning 00:04:47.779 --> 00:04:51.160 is so important. I mean, we know for a fact that 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:54.259 there are huge skills gaps in businesses. People 00:04:54.259 --> 00:04:56.040 are trying to create new business models to deal 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:58.540 with new marketplaces out there. We know that 00:04:58.540 --> 00:05:01.600 employees themselves or anyone in any organization, 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:03.360 even if it's a charity that you're volunteering 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:07.680 in, we need to learn, we need to grow our capabilities. 00:05:08.220 --> 00:05:10.699 And there's a lot of challenges for, I think, 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:13.120 people's time and attention. And I think you 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.300 pointed it out in your book, Hannah. In fact, 00:05:16.300 --> 00:05:18.980 a couple of you did. You know, you can't just 00:05:18.980 --> 00:05:21.779 provide the resources. I always say to my clients, 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:24.480 if you build it, they will not necessarily come 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:26.920 at all. So, you know, doesn't matter if you've 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:28.879 created the most beautiful playbook in the whole 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:31.639 world, literally, maybe no one will read it. 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:34.329 And so it's a real challenge for our you know, 00:05:34.589 --> 00:05:36.670 professionals like us. How about you, Emily? 00:05:36.769 --> 00:05:38.990 I like that point. Yeah. What I was going to 00:05:38.990 --> 00:05:42.589 say, Pam, is that I feel like for me, when I 00:05:42.589 --> 00:05:45.310 wrote my book about facilitation skills, which 00:05:45.310 --> 00:05:49.129 I know is something that we all touch on in our 00:05:49.129 --> 00:05:53.129 books in some way, it's not just about giving 00:05:53.129 --> 00:05:56.050 people those skills. It's also almost creating 00:05:56.050 --> 00:05:58.250 that demand because you were talking about the 00:05:58.250 --> 00:06:00.269 world of work and how the workplace is changing. 00:06:00.990 --> 00:06:03.589 I've done a lot of work with companies over the 00:06:03.589 --> 00:06:07.670 years. My background is in innovation. So companies 00:06:07.670 --> 00:06:10.889 more and more readily will bring people in to 00:06:10.889 --> 00:06:13.550 train and run workshops in the innovation space. 00:06:13.629 --> 00:06:15.790 In the facilitation space, I still feel like 00:06:15.790 --> 00:06:18.930 that's really nascent. And one thing that we're 00:06:18.930 --> 00:06:22.810 all trying to do is let people know through our 00:06:22.810 --> 00:06:25.269 books and sort of cultivate the demand for that 00:06:25.269 --> 00:06:29.069 skill and show how important it is to democratize 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:31.879 skills across the organization. And like you 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:34.319 were saying, Hannah, give people the power to 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:36.579 take those skills into their own hands and use 00:06:36.579 --> 00:06:40.100 that to create this culture of learning which 00:06:40.100 --> 00:06:43.139 spreads everywhere in a very natural way and 00:06:43.139 --> 00:06:46.319 isn't just dependent on external facilitators, 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:48.920 trainers, coaches, even though there is a place 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:50.920 for those sorts of things, but really democratizing 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:53.439 those skills and putting them into the hands 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:56.680 of people I think is so important. Yeah, I was 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:00.300 thinking about that too, in terms of when people 00:07:00.300 --> 00:07:03.279 start to want to learn facilitation skills. So 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:05.759 my first book is about designing and facilitating 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:07.980 learning, but I'm actually writing a second one 00:07:07.980 --> 00:07:09.920 right now, which is going to be called Everyday 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:12.839 Acts of Facilitation. And so I'm thinking about, 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:15.860 and I'm trying to write it for that time when 00:07:15.860 --> 00:07:18.279 people, maybe they've just been asked to... you 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:20.360 know, teach something or train in some way in 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:21.939 their organizations, and they've kind of fall. 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:24.459 We all fell into the role, I think, of being 00:07:24.459 --> 00:07:27.279 a facilitator. I don't know who grew up wanting 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:29.699 to be a facilitator. It's so rare. I never heard 00:07:29.699 --> 00:07:32.420 of it. But, you know, how can we get people at 00:07:32.420 --> 00:07:34.279 the moment where they go, I think this is sort 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:37.540 of a thing that I can learn more about. And how 00:07:37.540 --> 00:07:41.399 do I do that? And where do I go? And books are 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.019 one way, right? I'm also trying to say we can 00:07:45.019 --> 00:07:47.839 look around us at the world around us, all the 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:50.800 conversations we have every day and learn facilitation 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:54.360 skills or what not to do sometimes as well from 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:56.839 what's happening in our daily lives. So, you 00:07:56.839 --> 00:07:58.699 know, if we can get them to know that it's a 00:07:58.699 --> 00:08:01.519 field, it's a thing, then our books are there 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:04.000 for them, aren't they? What do you think, Hannah? 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:08.899 Oh, sorry, Emily. Go ahead, Emily, and then I'll 00:08:08.899 --> 00:08:11.699 chime in. All I was going to say is I think you've 00:08:11.699 --> 00:08:13.639 hit on a really good point, Beth, which is about 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:17.839 this word facilitator and the word facilitation. 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:23.060 And actually with the sort of sphere that we're 00:08:23.060 --> 00:08:26.060 all operating in, you need to talk to people 00:08:26.060 --> 00:08:28.819 who perhaps are facilitating but don't know that's 00:08:28.819 --> 00:08:30.839 what they're doing. And that comes with its own 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:34.389 challenges of generating that awareness. I think 00:08:34.389 --> 00:08:36.490 you've all done really well at picking book titles, 00:08:36.490 --> 00:08:38.509 because I personally really struggled with that, 00:08:38.509 --> 00:08:41.250 trying to find something that communicated what 00:08:41.250 --> 00:08:43.889 these skill sets do without calling them out 00:08:43.889 --> 00:08:45.929 explicitly in a way that would make people feel 00:08:45.929 --> 00:08:48.710 like that's not for me. But sorry, Hannah, I 00:08:48.710 --> 00:08:49.950 interrupted you. You're going to start speaking. 00:08:50.149 --> 00:08:52.509 Yeah, no, no, no, it's OK. Beth, I know your 00:08:52.509 --> 00:08:54.370 first book and I'm excited to hear that you're 00:08:54.370 --> 00:08:58.289 writing your second one. And your first book 00:08:58.289 --> 00:09:00.549 was, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I read 00:09:00.549 --> 00:09:03.580 it a little while ago, but it was facilitation 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:06.259 skills more for facilitators, so people who are 00:09:06.259 --> 00:09:08.179 are in the learning and development space or 00:09:08.179 --> 00:09:10.919 the training space or the learning space. And 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:13.019 what I think from your next book is it I think 00:09:13.019 --> 00:09:16.259 is everyday acts of facilitation and so it feels 00:09:16.259 --> 00:09:20.600 to me like it's stretching into and anybody can 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:23.700 be a facilitator and if I think about the messages 00:09:23.700 --> 00:09:27.720 in my book it's leader, what's leaders role in, 00:09:27.940 --> 00:09:29.840 in encouraging their teams to learn a kind of 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:32.379 on the job. And a big part of that is for them 00:09:32.379 --> 00:09:34.940 to be facilitators. How can they facilitate learning? 00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:37.879 How can they facilitate discussion and dialogue? 00:09:38.500 --> 00:09:40.659 And so yeah, lots of Pam, I know you said at 00:09:40.659 --> 00:09:42.559 the beginning, lots of overlap between our books, 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:44.940 but I'm seeing a really clear one, clear one 00:09:44.940 --> 00:09:48.840 right there. I agree with you. And I completely 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:50.700 agree. I mean, my, as you know, my book's called 00:09:50.700 --> 00:09:53.639 the workshop book. So, you know, kind of the 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:56.299 most plain name for it. And in fact, that's how 00:09:56.299 --> 00:09:58.559 I got into learning and development was actually 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:00.700 by running innovation workshops like you, Emily, 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:03.139 but then bringing all of that skill about, you 00:10:03.139 --> 00:10:05.600 know, inspiring people, making them curious, 00:10:05.779 --> 00:10:08.899 making them have some sort of attention, bringing 00:10:08.899 --> 00:10:12.059 that into learning. But I feel like you're right, 00:10:12.220 --> 00:10:15.519 you know, facilitating or leading any kind of 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:18.480 learning is a universal skill. because of the 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:21.279 times that we live in right now, because we lack, 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.679 I think, a little bit of formal structure. And 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:25.740 I definitely don't want to go back two centuries 00:10:25.740 --> 00:10:28.960 to where every meeting had a chairman, but somebody 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:31.659 who has an agenda for the meeting makes sure 00:10:31.659 --> 00:10:33.720 that lots of different people get to talk rather 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.639 than just one person. A lot of the work that 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:39.620 I do is using the principles of collective intelligence, 00:10:39.779 --> 00:10:41.759 which is a science which measures how groups 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:44.360 of people are more intelligent as a group than 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:46.240 the most intelligent person in the group. if 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:47.759 they behave well, and there are three things 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:51.019 that make them do that. One thing is turn taking. 00:10:51.179 --> 00:10:53.120 So conversational turn taking where everyone 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:55.559 lets everybody speak because you then get that 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:57.879 diversity of opinion. Second one is building 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:00.019 on ideas, not just waiting for your idea and 00:11:00.019 --> 00:11:03.000 then saying it out loud. And the third one is 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:05.500 more women in the group because women tend to 00:11:05.500 --> 00:11:08.600 be naturally more empathetic and aware of and 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:11.440 not, you know, that's a stereotype as well. But 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:13.720 the science proves that more women in the group 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:16.539 are, you know, are able to get greater collective 00:11:16.539 --> 00:11:18.580 intelligence. I feel like women do naturally 00:11:18.580 --> 00:11:21.379 facilitate in whatever sphere of life we're in, 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:22.960 we're always thinking about what does everybody 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.240 in the room need, which is why I think we bring 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:28.200 this kind of skill to learning. I'm super excited 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.059 about your book, Beth, about everyday active 00:11:31.059 --> 00:11:33.860 facilitation, because it just feels quite true. 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:35.980 That is what we're doing all the time. Even if 00:11:35.980 --> 00:11:38.200 it's tiny, it doesn't have to be a massive week 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:41.480 long thing. Yeah, that's right. And I think Hannah 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:44.100 was alluding to it too with leaders because we 00:11:44.100 --> 00:11:46.279 want people to know that facilitation skills 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:48.720 are they can be used one -on -one, don't we? 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:51.899 And not just with groups. We're using them all 00:11:51.899 --> 00:11:53.379 the time. And actually, I think they can make 00:11:53.379 --> 00:11:55.759 us better people, you know, for like facilitators 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:58.399 can change the world. Yay, you know, I'm so pro 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:01.120 get on my soapbox about what skills we bring 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.389 to the world. But let's talk a little bit more 00:12:03.389 --> 00:12:05.850 about our books because I think it's so exciting 00:12:05.850 --> 00:12:07.710 for me to actually talk about the book because 00:12:07.710 --> 00:12:09.549 it does feel like something that's off the side 00:12:09.549 --> 00:12:11.830 of my desk in a way. I mean, I'm a learning designer, 00:12:11.990 --> 00:12:14.389 I'm a facilitator, but then like the rest of 00:12:14.389 --> 00:12:16.590 you, we wrote a book and not everybody does that. 00:12:16.929 --> 00:12:19.090 But maybe I can ask Emily first, why did you 00:12:19.090 --> 00:12:21.850 decide that you would write a book? You know, 00:12:22.029 --> 00:12:26.370 what brought you to this point? Yeah, I always 00:12:26.370 --> 00:12:28.730 had to hesitate to admit this, but I actually 00:12:28.730 --> 00:12:30.789 started writing the book completely by accident. 00:12:31.529 --> 00:12:36.330 So I am a writer, like always have been. I have 00:12:36.330 --> 00:12:39.610 a literature degree, so I learned to write very 00:12:39.610 --> 00:12:41.830 long essays about things that other people had 00:12:41.830 --> 00:12:45.450 written down. And when I first joined the world 00:12:45.450 --> 00:12:47.789 of work, as I mentioned, my background's in innovation. 00:12:47.850 --> 00:12:50.610 So I was working for a financial services organization, 00:12:51.149 --> 00:12:53.070 wound up in their innovation team, which was 00:12:53.070 --> 00:12:56.090 just me and one other person not knowing what 00:12:56.090 --> 00:12:59.190 we were doing. And we started with books, you 00:12:59.190 --> 00:13:01.090 know, we read sprints by Jake Knapp and we were 00:13:01.090 --> 00:13:03.070 like, yes, we can take this, we can introduce 00:13:03.070 --> 00:13:05.409 this. And we just started doing things, you know, 00:13:05.570 --> 00:13:08.320 trial and error. And then From there, I moved 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:10.980 into innovation consultancy. So working with 00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:13.139 loads of different organizations, workshops every 00:13:13.139 --> 00:13:16.299 day, all of that sort of stuff. And I just started 00:13:16.299 --> 00:13:19.759 a Word document one day and started writing for 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:21.940 myself, you know, what went well, what didn't 00:13:21.940 --> 00:13:25.120 go so well, what I could do differently. And 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.460 one day I opened this Word document and I was 00:13:27.460 --> 00:13:29.559 like, wow, this is really long. This could be 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:33.419 a book. So I took a week off and I sat down and 00:13:33.419 --> 00:13:36.059 started jumbling all the parts around until I 00:13:36.059 --> 00:13:38.940 was like... Okay, this is a framework. I think 00:13:38.940 --> 00:13:42.320 I'm starting to take this seriously. So from 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:45.899 beginning to end, it took over three years to 00:13:45.899 --> 00:13:47.879 bring the book to where it is now, where people 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:51.039 can actually hold it and buy it. And I still 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:54.740 find it almost laughable when I see people holding 00:13:54.740 --> 00:13:57.879 a copy. I'm like, did I do that? Is that that 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:01.500 word document? Is this that thing now? But looking 00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:05.899 back, I'm going to retrospectively add a reason 00:14:05.899 --> 00:14:09.379 that I wrote the book, which is, I guess, it 00:14:09.379 --> 00:14:13.320 was a sort of love letter to myself in that first 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:15.899 original role, I guess, because I feel like I 00:14:15.899 --> 00:14:18.419 really wanted those skills to be able to facilitate 00:14:18.419 --> 00:14:20.879 well within a corporate context, except I didn't 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.360 know what facilitation was, and I wasn't sure 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:26.519 that's what I was doing. So let's say that I 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:31.080 wrote the book to my past self. I feel like it's 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:33.620 the same for me, Emily. I started writing the 00:14:33.620 --> 00:14:35.820 original workshop book because this new one is 00:14:35.820 --> 00:14:37.779 10 years later. It's the updated version and 00:14:37.779 --> 00:14:40.649 it's like 80 % new. even though it has the same 00:14:40.649 --> 00:14:43.610 foundations. But yeah, you know, writing down 00:14:43.610 --> 00:14:45.850 what really worked, what didn't work. And I'm, 00:14:45.909 --> 00:14:47.950 as I said, at the beginning of the conversation, 00:14:48.070 --> 00:14:50.110 while we were just warming up, I said my, you 00:14:50.110 --> 00:14:52.009 don't really read my book, it's more of a manual. 00:14:52.190 --> 00:14:54.090 It's like, have it ready for when you need to 00:14:54.090 --> 00:14:57.110 do a specific objective. So that's what I really 00:14:57.110 --> 00:14:59.470 love the kind of gamifying of different objectives 00:14:59.470 --> 00:15:01.990 into different structures. And so do you need 00:15:01.990 --> 00:15:04.649 to create new names? Or do you need to align 00:15:04.649 --> 00:15:07.779 a group of difficult stakeholders or, you know, 00:15:07.899 --> 00:15:11.159 do you need to create something that's an idea 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.159 that works really, really well, but improve it. 00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:15.779 So I've kind of done it through the lens of all 00:15:15.779 --> 00:15:18.720 of the different challenges that I've done in 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:21.399 my, you know, 25 years of workshops, working 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:23.820 on things from diamonds to toilet paper and everything 00:15:23.820 --> 00:15:26.600 in between, probably similar to you, Emily. How 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:30.779 about you, Hannah? Yeah. Well, a first quick 00:15:30.779 --> 00:15:32.700 thought. I don't remember when this was. I'm 00:15:32.700 --> 00:15:35.559 going to guess COVID is a bit of a mind vacuum. 00:15:35.980 --> 00:15:37.779 So I want to say it was five years, but if I 00:15:37.779 --> 00:15:39.480 add COVID, it was probably more like 10 years. 00:15:39.500 --> 00:15:42.179 So let's say it was 10 years ago. I can remember 00:15:42.179 --> 00:15:44.539 literally coming out of my mouth, I could never 00:15:44.539 --> 00:15:46.059 write a book. I don't even know what I would 00:15:46.059 --> 00:15:48.679 say. And so it's really interesting to be on 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.100 the other side of that. So if you're listening 00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:54.019 and you're wondering, can I write a book? I would 00:15:54.019 --> 00:15:58.769 say, absolutely, you can. And so why did I write 00:15:58.769 --> 00:16:01.850 my book? So as I said earlier, I've been working 00:16:01.850 --> 00:16:03.490 in learning and development for a long time. 00:16:04.429 --> 00:16:06.429 And most of that time has been as a consultant 00:16:06.429 --> 00:16:10.450 designing custom programs for clients. And I 00:16:10.450 --> 00:16:13.210 had lunch with a client probably two or three 00:16:13.210 --> 00:16:15.710 summers ago at this point. And she was telling 00:16:15.710 --> 00:16:18.049 me about a program, she's the manager of a learning 00:16:18.049 --> 00:16:21.250 department, a program that they created with 00:16:21.250 --> 00:16:25.419 a lot of... a lot of detail and and like really 00:16:25.419 --> 00:16:27.279 good design that went into it like they did a 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:29.259 needs assessment and it was for leaders in their 00:16:29.259 --> 00:16:34.100 organization on change managing change and the 00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:36.019 leaders all came which was great and they asked 00:16:36.019 --> 00:16:38.720 them you know what do you need to be able to 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.000 implement these concepts in your organization 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.220 to be able to actually apply what you've learned 00:16:43.220 --> 00:16:45.980 and so they got this feedback and then they turned 00:16:45.980 --> 00:16:48.120 around and they've created a follow -up program 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:52.429 on resiliency specifically and when they invited 00:16:52.429 --> 00:16:54.750 those leaders back to the resiliency program 00:16:54.750 --> 00:16:58.730 of the hundred or so leaders only six people 00:16:58.730 --> 00:17:02.610 signed up and When my client told me this my 00:17:02.610 --> 00:17:08.569 heart just sank And it was so familiar to me. 00:17:08.569 --> 00:17:11.589 So yes Yes, well, that's the thing and that's 00:17:11.589 --> 00:17:13.390 how I felt when she was telling me because I 00:17:13.390 --> 00:17:16.309 thought in my time consulting I feel like I've 00:17:16.309 --> 00:17:18.930 heard this over and over again and I I started 00:17:18.930 --> 00:17:21.319 thinking there's a there has to be a better way 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.720 or a different way that we help people change 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.039 their behavior or improve their performance or 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:29.799 learn essentially, be more innovative, Emily, 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:31.900 because I see innovation and learning go hand 00:17:31.900 --> 00:17:35.119 in hand, right? And so I really started questioning 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:38.220 my own profession about all this formal training 00:17:38.220 --> 00:17:41.720 and realized that we can't just have formal training, 00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:45.349 that we need to look at that culture where we're 00:17:45.349 --> 00:17:48.809 learning and working and growing. And so it was 00:17:48.809 --> 00:17:53.690 that lunch that was really pivotal and the seed 00:17:53.690 --> 00:17:56.710 that was planted about how might this look different 00:17:56.710 --> 00:18:00.150 for it to be more effective. Can you imagine 00:18:00.150 --> 00:18:03.710 that in this time starved, high pressured, low 00:18:03.710 --> 00:18:06.130 attention span world where there's so much change, 00:18:06.210 --> 00:18:10.230 so much learning that we need and so much demand 00:18:10.230 --> 00:18:13.859 for learning that we still have people, all of 00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:17.059 us, who feel like we don't have time to learn 00:18:17.059 --> 00:18:19.940 what's being given to us and the resources that 00:18:19.940 --> 00:18:23.720 we're privileged enough to have. It seems like 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:27.259 such a shame. I totally agree. I think it changes 00:18:27.259 --> 00:18:29.339 maybe how we write books, because we don't want 00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:32.220 to stop writing books, do we? And there's multiple 00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:35.480 ways to read books. We're all reading more audio 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:38.200 books, aren't we? Just to try to fit it in, but 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:42.369 I don't know. We can't stop doing this, but maybe 00:18:42.369 --> 00:18:45.369 we write them in such a way that it's easier 00:18:45.369 --> 00:18:47.549 to read. I know when I wrote Design to Engage, 00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:49.950 I said right in the beginning, you don't have 00:18:49.950 --> 00:18:52.869 to read this from cover to cover. You can just 00:18:52.869 --> 00:18:55.670 go to the chapter that is relevant to what you're 00:18:55.670 --> 00:18:59.130 doing right now and get that piece. And we know 00:18:59.130 --> 00:19:02.289 that's good learning anyway when it's immediately 00:19:02.289 --> 00:19:05.730 relevant for the... for the people. So did you 00:19:05.730 --> 00:19:08.509 think about how you wrote your book, any of you, 00:19:08.789 --> 00:19:10.789 and make different decisions based on kind of 00:19:10.789 --> 00:19:12.690 that busy world we're all living in right now? 00:19:13.250 --> 00:19:16.170 Yeah, I was going to talk about my own process, 00:19:16.490 --> 00:19:20.349 but also link back to something that Pam had 00:19:20.349 --> 00:19:23.410 said, which was, you know, my book's more of 00:19:23.410 --> 00:19:27.410 a manual. And it connected with me when you started 00:19:27.410 --> 00:19:30.079 talking Hannah and saying, If you don't think 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:32.380 you can write a book, you absolutely can. I was 00:19:32.380 --> 00:19:34.319 having this conversation with another facilitator 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.259 recently where she said, oh, I really liked your 00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:39.359 book, Emily, but I can never write something 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:41.059 like that. You know, my mind doesn't work in 00:19:41.059 --> 00:19:44.059 that way. My mind works in a much more visual 00:19:44.059 --> 00:19:46.980 mapping way. And I was saying, that's OK. You 00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:50.339 can write a book which is just facilitation maps. 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:53.900 You know, I think we all do have a book in us. 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:58.839 And as you rightly mentioned, Beth, people have 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:01.859 different preferences for how they take things 00:20:01.859 --> 00:20:05.359 in and learn. And that's fantastic. It just means 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:07.819 that there's more need for diversity out there. 00:20:08.259 --> 00:20:11.500 So in a way, it lowers those barriers to thinking 00:20:11.500 --> 00:20:13.319 I can't write a book because I can't write in 00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:15.700 this particular style. You know, that's absolutely 00:20:15.700 --> 00:20:17.940 fine. People take things in in different ways. 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:21.519 And people make choices now about what they consume 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:23.839 based on how they can consume it. I think that's 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:26.519 one of the joys of There's not many great things 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:28.200 to say about Amazon, but that's one of the great 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:30.559 things to say about Amazon is you can look and 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:32.720 you can definitely find something that suits 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:37.380 you and your style. Yeah, definitely. But keen 00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:40.900 to hear from the rest of you on the format of 00:20:40.900 --> 00:20:42.900 your book and how you picked it. I know you said, 00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:45.640 Beth, it's dive in and out. Was that a similar 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:47.599 approach for you, Hannah, or did you have something 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:51.589 slightly different? Yeah, well... I was thinking 00:20:51.589 --> 00:20:53.730 I was going to talk about just my latest book, 00:20:53.769 --> 00:20:56.769 but I'd like to kind of contrast both of my books. 00:20:56.829 --> 00:21:00.569 So my first book was very much kind of what was 00:21:00.569 --> 00:21:03.190 in me and what could easily, and I'm using air 00:21:03.190 --> 00:21:04.809 quotes because it's never easy to write a book, 00:21:04.869 --> 00:21:07.529 but what was easy to write based on my consulting 00:21:07.529 --> 00:21:10.109 career. And it was very much for learning and 00:21:10.109 --> 00:21:12.410 development professionals, how to design really 00:21:12.410 --> 00:21:15.910 impactful virtual training. And I was very conscious 00:21:15.910 --> 00:21:19.210 of making it very user -friendly and digestible 00:21:19.210 --> 00:21:24.069 or accessible. I have a great graphic designer 00:21:24.069 --> 00:21:26.849 that I work with and there's lots of images and 00:21:26.849 --> 00:21:29.849 illustrations and models and pictures, for lack 00:21:29.849 --> 00:21:33.289 of a better word, to make it really easy. I didn't 00:21:33.289 --> 00:21:35.430 want it to be like this dense textbook, kind 00:21:35.430 --> 00:21:37.230 of Pam, like yours, like reference, like go in 00:21:37.230 --> 00:21:39.029 when you need it, right? I wanted it to be really 00:21:39.029 --> 00:21:42.359 accessible. And my second book is really different. 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:45.180 So it's written for leaders, still without learning 00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:47.420 emphasis, but written for leaders instead of 00:21:47.420 --> 00:21:51.500 L &D professionals. And my approach with that 00:21:51.500 --> 00:21:54.420 one was, well, first of all, I had this lunch 00:21:54.420 --> 00:21:56.440 with this client and I'm like, well, is this 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:59.500 a thing? I think it is. But I wanted to validate 00:21:59.500 --> 00:22:01.720 that. So I ended up taking probably a good six 00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:04.140 months interviewing lots of different leaders 00:22:04.140 --> 00:22:07.140 and getting their perspective, which was really 00:22:07.140 --> 00:22:09.660 helpful in shaping kind of what I ultimately 00:22:09.660 --> 00:22:12.759 wrote. And many of them agreed to have their 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:16.220 stories in my book. So there's still some models 00:22:16.220 --> 00:22:19.160 and not nearly as many illustrations, maybe one 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:22.720 or two, but there's leaders' stories throughout. 00:22:22.940 --> 00:22:25.779 And so I was conscious of not having the book 00:22:25.779 --> 00:22:28.400 be just my voice, but to pull in other voices 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:31.000 and perspectives to, again, make it a little 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:34.069 bit more interesting. So it's a really different 00:22:34.069 --> 00:22:36.329 read than my first book, but I hope it says, 00:22:36.410 --> 00:22:39.789 I don't know, I have to ask, I suppose, if it's, 00:22:39.809 --> 00:22:42.490 yeah, that having the stories in there makes 00:22:42.490 --> 00:22:44.809 it a little bit more engaging. Hannah, I want 00:22:44.809 --> 00:22:47.230 you to tell everyone what you did about the podcast 00:22:47.230 --> 00:22:49.289 series for your second book, because I haven't 00:22:49.289 --> 00:22:51.170 read, I'm going to full disclosure, I read your 00:22:51.170 --> 00:22:53.069 first book, but I haven't read your second book, 00:22:53.230 --> 00:22:55.970 but I have listened to the short podcast series 00:22:55.970 --> 00:22:58.450 that you did, which is brilliant. And I think 00:22:58.450 --> 00:23:01.069 people should know that you did that. Yeah, thanks, 00:23:01.069 --> 00:23:04.930 Beth. So a colleague of mine when I was talking 00:23:04.930 --> 00:23:07.210 about researching and doing these interviews 00:23:07.210 --> 00:23:09.109 just kind of said off the cuff, he's like, why 00:23:09.109 --> 00:23:11.150 don't you record them and turn them into a podcast? 00:23:11.569 --> 00:23:13.410 And like I said, 10 years ago, I could never 00:23:13.410 --> 00:23:15.230 write a book. I was like, I would never do a 00:23:15.230 --> 00:23:18.619 podcast. But he planted that seed and that's 00:23:18.619 --> 00:23:21.940 what I ended up doing. So about half of them, 00:23:22.059 --> 00:23:24.160 sorry, not half, half a dozen of them agreed 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:27.539 to use that recording in a podcast. So I worked 00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:29.980 with a great producer who took those. So it's 00:23:29.980 --> 00:23:32.619 not like this style where it's a topic and it's 00:23:32.619 --> 00:23:35.359 different people talking. It follows the story 00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:37.759 arc of my book and it's me with Emily and then 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:39.660 me with Beth and then hearing a little bit from 00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:42.359 Pam kind of all around a theme. And it's not 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:44.240 a forever podcast because I feel like that would 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:47.410 be just far too much. to tackle, but it's six 00:23:47.410 --> 00:23:51.490 episodes kind of that I launched leading up to 00:23:51.490 --> 00:23:55.430 the book. So it was a nice way of providing a 00:23:55.430 --> 00:23:58.970 different format for people to hear or read what 00:23:58.970 --> 00:24:01.930 I had to say. And again, not just hearing it 00:24:01.930 --> 00:24:04.289 from me, they're hearing it from other people's 00:24:04.289 --> 00:24:07.670 experiences. Because stories bring all the interest, 00:24:07.750 --> 00:24:11.470 don't they? I mean, whether or not you can say 00:24:11.470 --> 00:24:15.559 who the case study is or not, it doesn't matter 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:18.319 because so long as you can, you know, put their 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:20.980 name as confidential, you can tell a story that's 00:24:20.980 --> 00:24:24.720 maybe a total failure. Yes. People love, love, 00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:26.779 love, love listening to those or learning from 00:24:26.779 --> 00:24:29.599 those and then, you know, and then some successes. 00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:31.839 So it was, it's the thing that I've learned the 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:35.019 most about writing my books is put in lots of 00:24:35.019 --> 00:24:37.019 stories, you know, the more traumatic, the better. 00:24:37.990 --> 00:24:40.450 And then it's like learning, isn't it? People 00:24:40.450 --> 00:24:42.609 then learn because they get a spike of emotion 00:24:42.609 --> 00:24:44.890 and it's memorable. And so they take that story 00:24:44.890 --> 00:24:47.309 with them. Yeah. When I got my first book edited, 00:24:47.650 --> 00:24:50.029 the editor said, I love your stories and please 00:24:50.029 --> 00:24:52.529 do more. So I went and wrote a bunch more and 00:24:52.529 --> 00:24:54.650 tried to integrate them in. And now when I'm 00:24:54.650 --> 00:24:57.269 writing this one, it is all story based. But 00:24:57.269 --> 00:24:59.730 my challenge is, I mean, Emily, you mentioned 00:24:59.730 --> 00:25:02.809 diversity before. I'm thinking so much more now. 00:25:02.950 --> 00:25:04.710 I mean, it's not like I wasn't thinking about 00:25:04.710 --> 00:25:07.029 diversity and inclusion five years ago, but now 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:10.279 it's just even so much more a part of my reality 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:13.059 and my recognition as a white middle -aged woman. 00:25:13.059 --> 00:25:15.299 I only have my own experience and I just try 00:25:15.299 --> 00:25:18.200 to learn about other people's experiences. And 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:20.599 so part of me is saying right now, well, I can 00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:23.099 only talk about my everyday, you know, everyday 00:25:23.099 --> 00:25:25.119 acts of facilitation. I don't know what everyone 00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:27.819 else's everyday looks like. So it's a challenge 00:25:27.819 --> 00:25:30.619 to kind of boil it down to just the mindsets 00:25:30.619 --> 00:25:32.940 and the skills and the whatever. And hopefully 00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:35.359 that resonates with people around the world because 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:37.900 we're so much more our global audience for each 00:25:37.900 --> 00:25:41.019 other. Now, we weird people who read, you know, 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.279 write and read books in training and development 00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:45.539 and learning, learning and facilitation, all 00:25:45.539 --> 00:25:49.819 the words, right, that we use in our field. And 00:25:49.819 --> 00:25:51.599 so are you going to do that, Beth? Are you going 00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:54.619 to ask for different people's perspectives on 00:25:54.619 --> 00:25:56.619 everyday facilitation? You're going to do it 00:25:56.619 --> 00:25:59.299 from your perspective. But yeah, it's kind of 00:25:59.299 --> 00:26:01.369 a challenge, isn't it? Because I interviewed 00:26:01.369 --> 00:26:03.490 30 people when I wrote my first book and that 00:26:03.490 --> 00:26:05.369 was really useful. And I think maybe I needed 00:26:05.369 --> 00:26:08.349 that in terms of like a validation or something 00:26:08.349 --> 00:26:10.250 at the time to say, well, I don't know, do I 00:26:10.250 --> 00:26:12.109 know what I'm talking about? Well, 30 other people 00:26:12.109 --> 00:26:13.869 were kind of in line, right? And it felt good 00:26:13.869 --> 00:26:16.150 to do that and to put their quotes in the book. 00:26:16.509 --> 00:26:18.569 But in this one, it almost is a little bit more 00:26:18.569 --> 00:26:21.170 memoir and looking back at my whole life and 00:26:21.170 --> 00:26:24.380 go, well, how did I become a facilitator? and 00:26:24.380 --> 00:26:26.539 a learning designer, you know, yes, I took formal 00:26:26.539 --> 00:26:28.759 courses, but actually all those micro moments 00:26:28.759 --> 00:26:31.019 across my whole life, you know, and I'm, I'm 00:26:31.019 --> 00:26:34.160 51, like I've had a big life so far. And how 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:36.460 did, you know, how did we all learn the things 00:26:36.460 --> 00:26:38.640 that we learned? It was tiny stuff along the 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.019 way, right? So it's, it's got a bit of a memoir 00:26:41.019 --> 00:26:42.920 quality to it. So it'll be a different type of 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:45.259 book. Yeah. But what about you, Pam, because 00:26:45.259 --> 00:26:48.160 you've written two or three books, I think, and 00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:49.779 are they different from each other in certain 00:26:49.779 --> 00:26:52.859 ways? Yes. So the first book was the workshop 00:26:52.859 --> 00:26:56.059 book, which was definitely about what I'd learned 00:26:56.059 --> 00:26:58.400 and the different techniques related to corporate 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.039 facilitation, usually around innovation. And 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:04.500 then I went into trying to do a much more clever 00:27:04.500 --> 00:27:06.599 book, which I'm really very proud of it. It's 00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:09.160 called Supercharged Teams, and it's got a lot 00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:11.259 more research behind it. And it's all around 00:27:11.259 --> 00:27:13.140 collective intelligence. So instead of just how 00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:15.259 to bring people together in one meeting, you 00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:17.440 know, or one workshop, it's about how to build 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:21.619 a really strong team. It's again a toolkit. It's 00:27:21.619 --> 00:27:24.359 30 tools of great teamwork. And I really enjoyed 00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:26.640 writing it. I wrote it during the pandemic or 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.579 at least just before the pandemic. And I was 00:27:28.579 --> 00:27:31.200 talking about remote working at the time and 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:32.619 virtual workshops and everything. And then it 00:27:32.619 --> 00:27:36.019 sort of landed. The thing is it landed in the 00:27:36.019 --> 00:27:39.410 pandemics. So I'm super proud of it. And I still 00:27:39.410 --> 00:27:41.210 refer, you know, I still refer to it all the 00:27:41.210 --> 00:27:43.269 time, especially because so many people, so many 00:27:43.269 --> 00:27:46.430 experts gave me amazing research and incredible 00:27:46.430 --> 00:27:48.769 interviews. So I really reached out in that one, 00:27:48.910 --> 00:27:50.849 whereas the first one was just me saying what 00:27:50.849 --> 00:27:53.589 I'd learned. And then I did the update of the 00:27:53.589 --> 00:27:55.450 workshop book, which was fascinating because 00:27:55.450 --> 00:27:57.089 I've done a kind of a combination of the two 00:27:57.089 --> 00:27:59.470 books now because I have the old workshop book, 00:27:59.509 --> 00:28:01.430 then I had to update it. And the publisher said, 00:28:01.630 --> 00:28:03.289 you know, please make sure that it's at least 00:28:03.289 --> 00:28:05.950 10 % new. And it was like 80 % new, but just 00:28:05.950 --> 00:28:07.950 because of how much has changed in 10 years, 00:28:08.210 --> 00:28:10.990 but then I went out and interviewed lots of different 00:28:10.990 --> 00:28:13.549 people. So hopefully brought more case studies 00:28:13.549 --> 00:28:17.089 to it, even though it's still a manual. So yeah, 00:28:17.190 --> 00:28:18.529 it's been a wonderful journey. You know, one 00:28:18.529 --> 00:28:20.750 of the best things about writing these books, 00:28:20.930 --> 00:28:22.750 apart from the fact that writing is quite hard 00:28:22.750 --> 00:28:24.349 and you've got to do it in addition to all of 00:28:24.349 --> 00:28:27.150 your day job, is the people that you speak to, 00:28:27.230 --> 00:28:29.750 isn't it? People like yourselves you meet or 00:28:29.750 --> 00:28:31.450 the people that you're interviewing. And that's 00:28:31.450 --> 00:28:34.930 such inspiration for anybody. And that's so enriching, 00:28:35.029 --> 00:28:37.190 don't you find? Is that what you found, Emily? 00:28:37.769 --> 00:28:41.970 Yeah, definitely. Meeting new people was a big 00:28:41.970 --> 00:28:44.910 part of the book writing process for me, not 00:28:44.910 --> 00:28:47.930 just for the side of getting people's insights 00:28:47.930 --> 00:28:51.089 to put into the book, but also from the side 00:28:51.089 --> 00:28:54.250 of What does it mean to write a book and to be 00:28:54.250 --> 00:28:56.950 successful in that space? You know, I reached 00:28:56.950 --> 00:29:01.509 out to a bunch of L &D authors, not any of you 00:29:01.509 --> 00:29:04.170 three, so it's okay, I didn't get ghosted by 00:29:04.170 --> 00:29:07.529 anyone in this school, but I reached out to a 00:29:07.529 --> 00:29:09.589 bunch of other L &D authors and spoke to some 00:29:09.589 --> 00:29:11.869 about, you know, what makes a book successful, 00:29:11.990 --> 00:29:14.630 all of those types of things, and really tried 00:29:14.630 --> 00:29:16.930 to do my research into that as well. And that 00:29:16.930 --> 00:29:20.759 was such a fruitful process to... learn about 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:24.119 those sorts of things. I think one other key 00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.039 thing that I learned from writing the book was 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:29.980 how to work in public. So the year before I published, 00:29:30.220 --> 00:29:33.099 I was thinking, how am I going to get to the 00:29:33.099 --> 00:29:36.480 point where this is finished? And accountability 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.180 is a massive thing for me. So I was thinking 00:29:38.180 --> 00:29:40.680 about how can I create accountability? And I 00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:43.359 set myself the goal, like every week this year, 00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:46.420 I'm going to put a video on LinkedIn of me talking 00:29:46.420 --> 00:29:48.180 about something in the book. I'm going to do 00:29:48.180 --> 00:29:52.480 it every week for the entire year and just hopefully 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.480 it will help me to get over the line. But it 00:29:55.480 --> 00:29:58.019 did way more of that than that as well because 00:29:58.019 --> 00:30:00.940 it introduced me to new people. It helped me 00:30:00.940 --> 00:30:02.819 to develop and refine my content because they 00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:05.140 had to talk about it. Then I developed and refined 00:30:05.140 --> 00:30:08.119 it further because people gave me feedback and 00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:12.480 it got me more comfortable as well with appearing 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:15.079 on camera and building a sort of momentum behind 00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:17.119 the book so that when it came out it wasn't just 00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:18.980 launched into a vacuum, there were already people 00:30:18.980 --> 00:30:21.400 there who were interested to read it because 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:24.119 of this content. So I think there's so much to 00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:28.160 be said for the process in pushing you out of 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:30.920 your comfort zone in so many different ways that 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.140 you don't necessarily even anticipate when you 00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:36.279 start going through that process. I mean I see 00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:38.220 you all nodding so I know you've probably got 00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:40.200 one or two stories along these lines as well. 00:30:40.709 --> 00:30:43.309 We're going to take a pause here, stay tuned 00:30:43.309 --> 00:30:45.529 for the second part which will be out in a day 00:30:45.529 --> 00:30:48.450 or so. A huge thank you to our awesome guests 00:30:48.450 --> 00:30:50.970 Hannah, Pam, Beth and Emily and you'll find all 00:30:50.970 --> 00:30:52.869 their details along with links to the subjects 00:30:52.869 --> 00:30:54.809 they spoke about in the show notes.