WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.640 There is, God willing, a quote on the screen 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:06.000 from a woman called Jackie Pullinger. She said 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:08.740 this, don't tell someone about Christ unless 00:00:08.740 --> 00:00:11.279 you're willing to give them your bed. Jackie 00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:13.759 Pullinger is a missionary in Hong Kong, mainly 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:16.739 reaching out to those who are recovering from 00:00:16.739 --> 00:00:19.940 drug addiction. And her simple point was that 00:00:19.940 --> 00:00:23.140 the call to follow Christ is a call to become 00:00:23.140 --> 00:00:26.579 part of Christ's family. And so the implication 00:00:26.579 --> 00:00:29.320 for us as Christians is to be ready to be that 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:35.039 family for others. And the reality is that the 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:38.000 bigger the differences there are between us and 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:41.240 the people we call, then sometimes the bigger 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:43.679 the demands that can place on us. Certainly different 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:47.020 demands are placed. on us and we want to think 00:00:47.020 --> 00:00:49.200 together today about what it looks like to put 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:52.600 philippians 2 4 into practice to consider the 00:00:52.600 --> 00:00:56.539 interests of others before our own to be people 00:00:56.539 --> 00:00:59.880 who put hospitality into practice to welcome 00:00:59.880 --> 00:01:02.200 others into our space so that they might become 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:06.230 our friends We've heard already that class is 00:01:06.230 --> 00:01:09.650 a difficult thing to pin down, doesn't stand 00:01:09.650 --> 00:01:12.810 still, it's elusive. And yet it is this word 00:01:12.810 --> 00:01:17.230 that categorizes us along economic and cultural 00:01:17.230 --> 00:01:21.670 lines. And we want to dig into some ways in which 00:01:21.670 --> 00:01:24.769 we can navigate that. So you've heard a little 00:01:24.769 --> 00:01:27.430 bit from Megan and from Kevin. Just say a little 00:01:27.430 --> 00:01:30.290 bit more about what your roles involve before 00:01:30.290 --> 00:01:33.040 we move on. So Megan, start us off. Yeah, so 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:37.019 I work in Camden and Islington and my role has 00:01:37.019 --> 00:01:39.519 a special focus on working with people on council 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:44.260 estates and with seniors. I grew up on a council 00:01:44.260 --> 00:01:46.719 estate myself in North London and I didn't have 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:50.400 a Christian influence for over 30 years. So I've 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:52.659 got a particular passion for reaching people 00:01:52.659 --> 00:01:55.760 in the context like the one that I came out of. 00:01:57.129 --> 00:01:59.370 Yeah, and as well as looking after South London, 00:01:59.530 --> 00:02:01.450 I have the privilege of overseeing our council 00:02:01.450 --> 00:02:04.030 state and seniors ministry. Elsewhere exists 00:02:04.030 --> 00:02:07.030 to be igniting a movement of mission in the local 00:02:07.030 --> 00:02:11.490 church. And so our missional teams are working 00:02:11.490 --> 00:02:14.789 alongside other churches to help them to reach 00:02:14.789 --> 00:02:18.530 out. onto communities like estates the two and 00:02:18.530 --> 00:02:20.530 a half million people that are living on social 00:02:20.530 --> 00:02:23.270 housing of some sort and yeah just being equipped 00:02:23.270 --> 00:02:26.669 to share the gospel and to do life with people 00:02:26.669 --> 00:02:29.590 living in those communities we want to stress 00:02:29.590 --> 00:02:33.050 that our sins are like scarlet we are people 00:02:33.050 --> 00:02:35.289 who've made mistakes who are still making mistakes 00:02:35.289 --> 00:02:38.909 and yet we're here today because we believe that 00:02:39.150 --> 00:02:42.129 Jesus has washed us whiter than snow and we want 00:02:42.129 --> 00:02:44.449 to be part of the conversation, not because we 00:02:44.449 --> 00:02:46.610 have got it right and always have done things 00:02:46.610 --> 00:02:49.909 perfectly. We're learning and on a journey along 00:02:49.909 --> 00:02:53.009 with you guys. And just putting that into practice, 00:02:53.289 --> 00:02:55.789 I wrote this little book a couple of years ago 00:02:55.789 --> 00:02:59.270 on crossing cultures for church leaders, talking 00:02:59.270 --> 00:03:01.969 about class and different things. And one of 00:03:01.969 --> 00:03:05.090 the first things I say in that is that the first 00:03:05.090 --> 00:03:09.050 sermon I gave on a council estate to people walked 00:03:09.050 --> 00:03:10.629 out and said they'd never come back to church 00:03:10.629 --> 00:03:14.629 again. The first evangelistic event I put on 00:03:14.629 --> 00:03:16.909 as I planted a church and a council estate, I 00:03:16.909 --> 00:03:19.270 thought it'd be great to call it tiramisu. This 00:03:19.270 --> 00:03:21.889 seemed like a really good idea. The one guy gets 00:03:21.889 --> 00:03:25.750 the irony up there. And I guess that just shows 00:03:25.750 --> 00:03:30.310 how I was importing a way of life that I had 00:03:30.310 --> 00:03:33.090 inherited and learned, even without realizing 00:03:33.090 --> 00:03:36.949 it, into my ministry. And we can all do that. 00:03:37.259 --> 00:03:39.780 And as Matthew said earlier, we want to learn, 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.639 pick up on those blind spots. And the particular 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:44.680 theme that we want to think about together now 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:48.699 is the theme of communication and how communication 00:03:48.699 --> 00:03:52.319 can act as an invisible barrier within church 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:53.919 life. And we're going to look at that through 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:57.719 three lenses, through the lens of personal interactions, 00:03:58.099 --> 00:04:02.340 through the lens of the way that leaders interact 00:04:02.340 --> 00:04:05.650 with one another. And then finally, through public 00:04:05.650 --> 00:04:07.509 teaching. And the way that we're going to do 00:04:07.509 --> 00:04:13.229 that is we're going to hear three fictional dramatized 00:04:13.229 --> 00:04:16.089 dialogues. OK, so you're going to hear this fictional 00:04:16.089 --> 00:04:19.529 dramatized dialogue. Think about the archers. 00:04:19.550 --> 00:04:21.829 Think about EastEnders. That's what we're talking 00:04:21.829 --> 00:04:23.910 about. But it's only three minutes and you're 00:04:23.910 --> 00:04:25.589 going to hear it and then we're going to discuss 00:04:25.589 --> 00:04:27.189 it. We're going to use it as a basis for our 00:04:27.189 --> 00:04:31.189 discussion. So let's see if the technology works. 00:04:31.269 --> 00:04:32.990 We're going to go straight into the first one. 00:04:38.670 --> 00:04:40.769 Yeah, we might actually be in Brighton over half 00:04:40.769 --> 00:04:43.029 -term. Yeah, a uni friend of mine lives down 00:04:43.029 --> 00:04:45.009 there now. Said we should come down while the 00:04:45.009 --> 00:04:46.850 kids are still, you know, young enough to enjoy 00:04:46.850 --> 00:04:51.029 it. Nice. We'll be in Manchester. My old housemates 00:04:51.029 --> 00:04:53.250 planted a church up there. Be good to see what 00:04:53.250 --> 00:04:57.529 God's up to. What about you, Mark? Um, not sure 00:04:57.529 --> 00:05:02.970 yet. Probably just staying local. Ah, nice. I 00:05:02.970 --> 00:05:04.389 feel like there's something really grounding 00:05:04.389 --> 00:05:07.089 about that, you know. Greg and David move on. 00:05:07.550 --> 00:05:11.709 Mark stays where he is for a moment. Yeah, grounding. 00:05:12.829 --> 00:05:15.069 Have you tried the oat milk? It's actually not 00:05:15.069 --> 00:05:23.170 bad. Okay, we'll look at this example. Perhaps 00:05:23.170 --> 00:05:25.509 you can get it. There's something about geography 00:05:25.509 --> 00:05:29.250 here, okay? And how geographical place can cause 00:05:29.250 --> 00:05:32.360 tension. and confusion. I want to be clear, we're 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:34.819 not intending to make a moral judgment about 00:05:34.819 --> 00:05:37.560 where your friends live and whether it's okay 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:39.600 for them to live close or far away. We're picking 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:41.899 up on something that came up a little bit in 00:05:41.899 --> 00:05:44.040 the last session, David Goodhart's somewheres 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:47.259 versus anywheres sort of motif. And that paradigm 00:05:47.259 --> 00:05:50.399 basically says this, that somewheres are rooted 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:55.180 locally and find their identity through local 00:05:55.180 --> 00:05:59.360 belonging, whereas anywheres are mobile. and 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:02.879 find their identity mainly through achievement. 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:05.319 Now, you can't push that too far. Matthew's already 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:08.540 touched on that. Another reason you can't push 00:06:08.540 --> 00:06:11.519 it too far is thinking about diaspora communities 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:15.519 who have a strong sense of place locally, but 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.279 also a sense of place and connection with people 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:21.660 who are in another place. See, that's an example 00:06:21.660 --> 00:06:25.120 of where this idea breaks down. But our experience 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:29.500 is that some communities have this hyper local 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:32.680 focus. So a friend of mine, Chris Rogers, is 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:35.220 over in East London. He says he would identify 00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:39.079 himself as working class as a pastor. And he 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:41.600 says that the way that he thinks about his own 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:44.879 way of moving through the world is reputation 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:48.959 earned through reciprocity for the sake of reliability. 00:06:49.660 --> 00:06:54.360 Reputation. So he's trying to. maintain his social 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:57.319 status with those around him and he does that 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:00.899 through reciprocity can be given take of interacting 00:07:00.899 --> 00:07:04.100 with people locally and he does that because 00:07:04.100 --> 00:07:07.160 he's learned over time that when the gas meter 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:11.379 gets to zero or you need money to buy some chips 00:07:11.379 --> 00:07:14.819 it's people who are local who will be able to 00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:18.519 help you out and so actually his life is focused 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:22.720 on being local reputation with his close colleagues 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:25.540 through reciprocity, what they do for one another, 00:07:25.699 --> 00:07:28.800 for the sake of reliability. When things go wrong, 00:07:28.980 --> 00:07:31.759 there's someone who can help you. And so we want 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.899 to move to a time of discussion. And the first 00:07:34.899 --> 00:07:40.500 question is, how do we address this kind of lack 00:07:40.500 --> 00:07:43.360 of rootedness that some of our congregations 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:47.810 can have in church life? Yeah. I think I want 00:07:47.810 --> 00:07:49.529 to start off with just some pastoral honesty. 00:07:49.629 --> 00:07:54.350 I think that the hyper -local focus of estates 00:07:54.350 --> 00:07:58.709 and being there, rooting in a community, and 00:07:58.709 --> 00:08:03.089 the difficulty that sometimes, even if you're 00:08:03.089 --> 00:08:05.670 a little bit further away from those communities, 00:08:05.709 --> 00:08:09.310 that can have the impact that can have on church 00:08:09.310 --> 00:08:13.589 life and family life. So real life, I suppose, 00:08:13.670 --> 00:08:17.060 example for us at the church that... an elder 00:08:17.060 --> 00:08:21.540 out in Vauxhall. We had a local Eritrean family. 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:26.160 We had seen them wonderfully. Yeah, the mum comes 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:29.000 to faith, then the dad comes to faith. They're 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:31.939 three boys. They all live in a one bedroom flat. 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:35.580 It was a tight squeeze. And eventually they were 00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:38.220 able to find another flat with a little bit more 00:08:38.220 --> 00:08:42.100 space. It was only a mile and a half away from 00:08:42.100 --> 00:08:45.500 where we are in Vauxhall. But that mile and a 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:49.639 half has just created some difficulties in them 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:52.000 just being involved in everyday life. Yeah, in 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:55.019 the church family, in all honesty, they probably 00:08:55.019 --> 00:08:57.500 feel a little bit more separate from the church. 00:08:57.549 --> 00:09:00.149 family and i think it's just that honesty of 00:09:00.149 --> 00:09:03.710 understanding how much sort of the the local 00:09:03.710 --> 00:09:08.169 focus and just being in every everyday life and 00:09:08.169 --> 00:09:09.990 just bumping into people when you're going to 00:09:09.990 --> 00:09:12.429 test goes does make a big difference and it and 00:09:12.429 --> 00:09:14.850 it helps us i suppose when we think about church 00:09:14.850 --> 00:09:18.090 life not just speak the gospel but live out the 00:09:18.090 --> 00:09:20.529 gospel in the way that you're under the gaze 00:09:20.529 --> 00:09:23.309 of yeah yeah watching eyes as you can in a local 00:09:23.309 --> 00:09:27.220 focus okay so there's something about being local, 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:31.919 helping us to disciple one another. And I think 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.519 of a woman who we all know who came to faith 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:38.940 recently. I call her Rebecca. She was in prison 00:09:38.940 --> 00:09:42.840 for a long time through the evangelistic work 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:44.899 that happened in that prison. She became a Christian. 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:48.679 She's out now. And her sense was, speaking to 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:54.820 her over lunch recently, was that I need, once 00:09:54.820 --> 00:09:57.110 a week is not enough. That was her phrase, once 00:09:57.110 --> 00:09:59.629 a week is not enough, by which she meant going 00:09:59.629 --> 00:10:02.590 to a Bible study once a week for some kind of 00:10:02.590 --> 00:10:04.690 discipleship wasn't enough to keep her going 00:10:04.690 --> 00:10:07.950 and to keep her from falling back into the old 00:10:07.950 --> 00:10:11.590 patterns that she had escaped from being liberated 00:10:11.590 --> 00:10:14.769 from in Christ. And I know you've got a story 00:10:14.769 --> 00:10:17.909 off the back of that, Megan. Yeah, so I have 00:10:17.909 --> 00:10:20.210 a friend who was saved when he was in prison. 00:10:20.629 --> 00:10:23.610 And whilst he was in prison, he was having that 00:10:23.610 --> 00:10:28.230 kind of daily faith. support journey. There were 00:10:28.230 --> 00:10:30.769 various prison ministries going into prison, 00:10:31.009 --> 00:10:34.809 conducting Bible studies and small groups and 00:10:34.809 --> 00:10:39.049 the Sunday service. He was having a Bible study 00:10:39.049 --> 00:10:41.450 with other prisoners on his wing and it was a 00:10:41.450 --> 00:10:47.750 daily input every day. And he was reading the 00:10:47.750 --> 00:10:51.350 Bible avidly. He wanted to get plugged into the 00:10:51.350 --> 00:10:54.230 church as soon as he came out. But what he found 00:10:54.230 --> 00:10:57.769 was he had this picture of the early church in 00:10:57.769 --> 00:10:59.950 the book of Acts, and he thought that it would 00:10:59.950 --> 00:11:03.309 be a replication of what he had experienced in 00:11:03.309 --> 00:11:05.929 prison. And when he came out, he just didn't 00:11:05.929 --> 00:11:08.809 find that. And it really, yeah, it really disappointed 00:11:08.809 --> 00:11:12.210 him. OK, and I remember having a conversation 00:11:12.210 --> 00:11:15.669 with Matthew in the lead up to this, and he mentioned. 00:11:16.580 --> 00:11:19.379 The wisdom that you see in morning and evening 00:11:19.379 --> 00:11:23.240 prayer within the Anglican life of the church, 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:29.659 a rooted daily expression of the gospel that 00:11:29.659 --> 00:11:31.679 people can come to, whether they can even read 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:34.159 or not, that is there for people. That's not 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:36.259 necessarily the model for everyone, but it's 00:11:36.259 --> 00:11:38.279 just striking that there's a sense in which that 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:41.820 meets a need that actually is sometimes there. 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.340 Let's move on to... the practical impact that 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:50.039 this can have in shaping church life. I know 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:55.159 that midweek groups can work differently in this 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:57.860 kind of context, Kev. Yeah, and I think when 00:11:57.860 --> 00:11:59.299 we use that language of midweek groups, we're 00:11:59.299 --> 00:12:01.059 not talking just about Bible study. I suppose 00:12:01.059 --> 00:12:04.720 that the wider ministries that some of our churches 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:09.799 will be able to offer as a way of... bridging 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:12.100 the gap just between the only thing we can invite 00:12:12.100 --> 00:12:13.759 someone to is a Sunday service. And some of these 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:15.960 ministries that give the opportunity for people 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.580 to start building relationships with Christians 00:12:18.580 --> 00:12:22.080 in their local community and sort of feeds off 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:23.980 the back of what Megan's saying is they need 00:12:23.980 --> 00:12:27.460 more than just, yeah, a meeting, one meeting 00:12:27.460 --> 00:12:31.440 a week. I suppose one of the things that we've 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:35.159 identified is that... There is the danger, though, 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:38.220 of people that are around in the week being able 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:42.179 to be involved in these midweek ministries, as 00:12:42.179 --> 00:12:45.100 opposed to then some people that can, because 00:12:45.100 --> 00:12:47.679 of work or family commitments, only be there 00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:50.299 on a Sunday or maybe make one midweek meeting 00:12:50.299 --> 00:12:54.500 a week in the evening. And so you end up... Sometimes 00:12:54.500 --> 00:12:57.019 with the danger of two different congregations, 00:12:57.019 --> 00:13:00.779 you've got the people that feel happy and more 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:04.120 comfortable in a midweek setting in some of the 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:06.440 outreach events that we'll be doing. And then 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:08.480 they come to church on a Sunday and then they 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:10.460 just see this completely new group of people 00:13:10.460 --> 00:13:13.919 that they just have limited interaction with. 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:19.899 One lady said to us about one of the midweek 00:13:19.899 --> 00:13:23.799 ministries that we run on a Friday. church for 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:26.659 me with me and sort of thinking that's an aspect 00:13:26.659 --> 00:13:28.600 of what it means to belong to church but it's 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:31.419 not it's not sort of the whole sort of picture 00:13:31.419 --> 00:13:33.899 it's not that when you come on a friday it's 00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:36.559 not the whole gather church um yeah on a on a 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:39.179 sunday and it's we're just trying to work out 00:13:39.179 --> 00:13:41.360 what that looks like for us in our context and 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.539 it's because the cultural gap is smaller one 00:13:43.539 --> 00:13:45.419 of the reasons is the cultural gap is smaller 00:13:45.419 --> 00:13:49.809 coming to that session on friday morning, afternoon 00:13:49.809 --> 00:13:53.210 even. Lunch. Lunchtime. Coming to that session 00:13:53.210 --> 00:13:57.250 feels like a smaller cultural leap than coming 00:13:57.250 --> 00:14:00.029 even on a Sunday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I suppose 00:14:00.029 --> 00:14:03.870 in one sense, there will be maybe more people 00:14:03.870 --> 00:14:07.309 from a similar context because it's, again, more 00:14:07.309 --> 00:14:10.230 hyper -local focused, people that are there midweek. 00:14:10.389 --> 00:14:14.409 I suppose there is a similarity, as it were, 00:14:14.490 --> 00:14:16.490 for quite a lot of the people that will be coming 00:14:16.490 --> 00:14:20.379 along. Okay. Megan, you wanted to say something 00:14:20.379 --> 00:14:23.360 about the flip side of this, how we draw people 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:27.659 in as a first step. Yeah, I think maybe not looking 00:14:27.659 --> 00:14:30.539 at it as a negative that they are viewing that 00:14:30.539 --> 00:14:34.720 as church, but viewing it more as it is a step 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:38.779 towards church. And that it can be an opportunity 00:14:38.779 --> 00:14:42.019 to actually broaden that network of support, 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.940 a network of contacts that they have through 00:14:44.940 --> 00:14:48.059 that first initial step of a group like that, 00:14:48.220 --> 00:14:51.539 introducing them to more people from the wider 00:14:51.539 --> 00:14:54.320 church body so that when they do make that step 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:57.350 into church, it's more comfortable. Yeah, thank 00:14:57.350 --> 00:15:00.590 you. Now, one of my colleagues made a really 00:15:00.590 --> 00:15:03.389 interesting point as we were talking about this 00:15:03.389 --> 00:15:06.210 in the preparation. His observation was that 00:15:06.210 --> 00:15:09.090 in his church, which is really mixed across class 00:15:09.090 --> 00:15:11.669 and cultural lines, that there are some people 00:15:11.669 --> 00:15:13.370 who from a middle class background have made 00:15:13.370 --> 00:15:15.389 a commitment to be part of that church for a 00:15:15.389 --> 00:15:17.990 number of years. And then after a period of time, 00:15:18.009 --> 00:15:23.690 feel a real sense of emotional struggle. And 00:15:23.690 --> 00:15:27.309 it's partly because. They feel like their closest 00:15:27.309 --> 00:15:30.269 friends who are most like them have moved away 00:15:30.269 --> 00:15:34.830 and they then feel a sense of loss from that. 00:15:35.909 --> 00:15:39.950 And my colleague's observation was that this 00:15:39.950 --> 00:15:43.529 raises the issue of us, if you're from a middle 00:15:43.529 --> 00:15:46.190 class background, administering in an environment 00:15:46.190 --> 00:15:48.610 where it's very cross -cultural, where maybe 00:15:48.610 --> 00:15:51.070 reaching into a different kind of class and counting 00:15:51.070 --> 00:15:53.700 the cost of that. counting the cost of that they're 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:56.259 recognizing that actually that's going to be 00:15:56.259 --> 00:15:58.980 painful and that sometimes his observation is 00:15:58.980 --> 00:16:01.059 that people haven't really counted the cost of 00:16:01.059 --> 00:16:05.039 what that will mean long term to make that step, 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:07.659 to do that. And it raises, I guess, two questions. 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:09.820 You know, how do we prepare people to do that 00:16:09.820 --> 00:16:12.620 if that's our context? But secondly, how do we 00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:15.419 deepen relationships with the people who we are 00:16:15.419 --> 00:16:17.500 ministering to? The reality is those people who 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:19.940 are in our churches should be our family. So 00:16:19.940 --> 00:16:22.419 how do we deepen those relationships so it doesn't 00:16:22.419 --> 00:16:26.059 feel such a wrench, such a loss? What do you 00:16:26.059 --> 00:16:30.309 say to that, Megan? Yeah, I intend a... Central 00:16:30.309 --> 00:16:33.789 London Church is a gathered church and most of 00:16:33.789 --> 00:16:37.809 us travel in to church, which I think is quite 00:16:37.809 --> 00:16:40.590 a common thing for Central London churches now. 00:16:40.950 --> 00:16:45.110 And so I've been really thinking with the leaders 00:16:45.110 --> 00:16:48.450 about what our small groups look like and who's 00:16:48.450 --> 00:16:51.730 attending them, who's attending which groups, 00:16:51.850 --> 00:16:54.450 because we've got a number of groups. Some which 00:16:54.450 --> 00:16:56.850 meet in people's houses, some which meet online, 00:16:57.129 --> 00:17:00.970 some are a hybrid, some meet utilizing this church 00:17:00.970 --> 00:17:04.289 building and thinking about who's going to those 00:17:04.289 --> 00:17:07.890 groups. What the makeup of those groups are and 00:17:07.890 --> 00:17:10.549 what makes some of those groups more or less 00:17:10.549 --> 00:17:13.130 accessible to people who live in social housing 00:17:13.130 --> 00:17:16.490 or in more from a more vulnerable, marginalized 00:17:16.490 --> 00:17:20.029 background. So we were looking at some of the 00:17:20.029 --> 00:17:23.789 groups have a much more traditional kind of structure. 00:17:24.230 --> 00:17:29.400 So a short time of introduction, catch up. followed 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:33.539 by quite a formal Bible study looking at a set 00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:38.079 of questions that come from the text that links 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:42.200 to the sermon from the Sunday. And those groups 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:45.460 don't tend to be very diverse in their makeup. 00:17:46.180 --> 00:17:50.180 The pastor has actually pioneered a new kind 00:17:50.180 --> 00:17:54.680 of model from his small group. So it's much more 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:58.440 focused on connection. So he's flipped that. 00:17:58.829 --> 00:18:01.589 that structure on its head really. So they meet 00:18:01.589 --> 00:18:05.690 and the focus is on connection. So that instead 00:18:05.690 --> 00:18:09.710 of having a 10 -minute quick catch -up, the bulk 00:18:09.710 --> 00:18:13.150 of the small group is focused on that catch -up. 00:18:13.269 --> 00:18:16.529 So they eat together, but it's a two -course 00:18:16.529 --> 00:18:19.410 meal. And between the two courses, they would 00:18:19.410 --> 00:18:22.809 then share communion. They would then maybe share 00:18:22.809 --> 00:18:28.009 a proverb or a psalm. engaged together in conversation 00:18:28.009 --> 00:18:31.470 about that over dessert and then they'd finish 00:18:31.470 --> 00:18:35.049 with prayer for each other um and then we have 00:18:35.049 --> 00:18:39.150 another quite specific small group that has taken 00:18:39.150 --> 00:18:43.250 a bit of both and it's really interesting because 00:18:43.250 --> 00:18:47.509 the makeup of that group is um like it's completely 00:18:47.509 --> 00:18:51.650 the people who come from social housing and vulnerable 00:18:51.650 --> 00:18:55.089 marginalized backgrounds um and so they actually 00:18:55.089 --> 00:18:58.160 have have made the decision to meet twice a week 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.099 rather than just once a week and the first meet 00:19:01.099 --> 00:19:04.920 is after the sermon on a Sunday where they just 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:09.700 meet to connect and then the midweek group they 00:19:09.700 --> 00:19:13.019 follow on from that connection but they also 00:19:13.019 --> 00:19:16.140 then look together at scripture and what they 00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:19.279 found is that the people in that group are very 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.000 comfortable to all share together because they 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.619 all come from very similar backgrounds there's 00:19:24.619 --> 00:19:29.569 no kind of their morals filled that group and 00:19:29.569 --> 00:19:32.750 actually some of the people that have connected 00:19:32.750 --> 00:19:35.990 with church but then might not be attending on 00:19:35.990 --> 00:19:38.569 a regular basis they are attending that small 00:19:38.569 --> 00:19:42.670 group both times a week and they're connecting 00:19:42.670 --> 00:19:45.009 with each other outside of that group as well 00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:48.230 so it shows that that model is really working 00:19:48.230 --> 00:19:51.829 for those people. Fantastic okay I think I'm 00:19:51.829 --> 00:19:56.829 going to move us on to scenario two. And the 00:19:56.829 --> 00:20:03.309 power is in my hand. Okay, let's go. So, the 00:20:03.309 --> 00:20:07.109 WhatsApp group. Yeah, I've been reading it. Don't 00:20:07.109 --> 00:20:09.069 think it's all that bad. I mean, yeah, it's a 00:20:09.069 --> 00:20:11.250 little bit messy. But at least he's saying what 00:20:11.250 --> 00:20:13.230 he feels rather than just letting it fester. 00:20:13.589 --> 00:20:18.569 But he said it to 60 people. I know. Let's be 00:20:18.569 --> 00:20:20.829 honest. People tiptoe around conflict for years 00:20:20.829 --> 00:20:25.529 in churches. He's hurt. And he's naming it. If 00:20:25.529 --> 00:20:27.769 we clamp down now, we're teaching him honesty 00:20:27.769 --> 00:20:31.710 just gets punished around here. Public naming 00:20:31.710 --> 00:20:34.769 isn't the same as honesty, though. It's already 00:20:34.769 --> 00:20:37.549 landed on people who had nothing to do with it. 00:20:38.410 --> 00:20:40.450 I've had two messages this morning from people 00:20:40.450 --> 00:20:44.069 who don't even know how this started. They're 00:20:44.069 --> 00:20:47.970 just caught in it now. I'm worried that if we 00:20:47.970 --> 00:20:52.619 let this run, we multiply the damage. Or... We 00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:55.359 let it breathe. Trust the spirit can work for 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:57.779 an open conversation. Let's be honest, people 00:20:57.779 --> 00:21:00.200 have seen worse on a WhatsApp group. But this 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:02.799 isn't banter that got out of hand. Someone's 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:06.200 been named. And the people reading it, they didn't 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:09.940 sign up to be an audience for this. Some conversations 00:21:09.940 --> 00:21:14.519 need walls, not a stage. Agency matters, yeah? 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:19.559 But so does pastoral responsibility. If we don't 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:22.259 step in, we're effectively saying that... Going 00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:25.059 public on the group is an acceptable way to handle 00:21:25.059 --> 00:21:31.460 being hurt. Okay, what we're dealing here with 00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:34.539 is a different scenario. It's differences in 00:21:34.539 --> 00:21:37.660 communication style that are playing out among 00:21:37.660 --> 00:21:39.539 the leaders who are having a conversation here, 00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:41.880 but also playing out amongst the congregation 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.400 online. And how do we manage that? Now, of course, 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:47.099 you don't know all the details of the scenario, 00:21:47.259 --> 00:21:50.579 but we're thinking about the communication and 00:21:50.579 --> 00:21:53.619 how that... works out um there's an interesting 00:21:53.619 --> 00:21:57.880 observation from uh one of our lcms that people 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:01.839 who often are pretty outspoken don't necessarily 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:05.740 last long in their church and i guess the question 00:22:05.740 --> 00:22:08.160 is how do we manage that how do we navigate that 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.039 over to you kevin yeah i mean i suppose feeding 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:13.779 first and foremost off the of our first sort 00:22:13.779 --> 00:22:17.180 of session or our first discussion, as we get 00:22:17.180 --> 00:22:19.819 to know people and as we spend life with people, 00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:22.079 we understand a little bit more about the situation 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:25.799 and a little bit more about their history. And 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:30.380 so when a scenario like this happens, the better 00:22:30.380 --> 00:22:33.019 we know our congregants, we can sort of think, 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:37.819 okay, is this a hurting sheep? Is this someone 00:22:37.819 --> 00:22:41.430 that... either intentionally or unintentionally 00:22:41.430 --> 00:22:43.730 has been hurt by someone and this is their way 00:22:43.730 --> 00:22:48.029 of reacting um and i think as we understand are 00:22:48.029 --> 00:22:50.589 they are they a hurting sheep it helps us then 00:22:50.589 --> 00:22:53.440 think okay How are we then going to deal with 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.660 this situation? Are we going to cut down on this? 00:22:56.980 --> 00:22:59.460 Are we going to deal with patience with this 00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:04.599 particular individual? Does it mean a one -on 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:08.440 -one conversation with this person? So I think 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:12.250 understanding the individual. yeah what they're 00:23:12.250 --> 00:23:13.769 going through it might be something that they're 00:23:13.769 --> 00:23:15.569 just going through at that particular point in 00:23:15.569 --> 00:23:19.549 their life that um yeah this is a reaction to 00:23:19.549 --> 00:23:22.369 yeah yeah a situation that is in one sense is 00:23:22.369 --> 00:23:24.789 not a normal reaction for them so i think i think 00:23:24.789 --> 00:23:27.650 yeah yeah are they are they wondering um or are 00:23:27.650 --> 00:23:30.529 they hurting sorry another one is then is is 00:23:30.529 --> 00:23:35.299 what they are communicating is this Is this sinful 00:23:35.299 --> 00:23:39.480 in what they're communicating? Or is this heretical 00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:43.160 in what they're communicating? And through that, 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:45.759 are they then going to damage the wider church 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.099 family? I think understanding that, are they 00:23:48.099 --> 00:23:51.359 hurting or are they wandering, helps us then 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:55.700 think, how are we going to deal with this situation? 00:23:57.740 --> 00:24:02.440 I've got a lovely church member who came to faith 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:06.700 later on in her life. And she has this wonderful 00:24:06.700 --> 00:24:09.359 way of gossiping the gospel. And it's lovely 00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:13.799 to see. But particularly in a state context, 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:18.559 gossip and talk and backstabbing is a big problem 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:24.200 as well. And so in this scenario, is this moaning 00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:27.220 going on? Or is there wider gossip that we need 00:24:27.220 --> 00:24:29.819 to sort of speak into as well? And that goes 00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:33.440 wider than a WhatsApp communication. Yeah, if 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:35.660 you want to know what's going on on the estate 00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:38.359 on a Friday, go and hang around with the people 00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:40.400 after lunch, come having a fag outside and you 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:43.220 just get a different picture, as it were. But 00:24:43.220 --> 00:24:46.279 then challenging. I think then particularly when 00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:50.140 we've got believers that are in the community, 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:54.380 challenging them sometimes on actually how they're 00:24:54.380 --> 00:24:56.940 using their words, not just on WhatsApp, but 00:24:56.940 --> 00:25:03.240 just in general. Are they gossiping in an ungodly 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.380 way about people living in the community? I think 00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:11.859 from, again, our experience in WhatsApp, I love 00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:14.680 spending time with people. I love seeing people 00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:19.680 face to face. WhatsApp, if I could do away with 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:23.160 it, would be my ideal. But I understand there 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:27.579 are blessings to it as well. So then what guidance 00:25:27.579 --> 00:25:32.299 can we put on in our groups? And so, again, how 00:25:32.299 --> 00:25:35.460 we've worked that out in some of our groups is 00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:39.160 that there are limits on who can. yeah who who 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:42.279 can sort of put a message on the group um yeah 00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.619 so on the on the members group um not just limited 00:25:45.619 --> 00:25:47.799 to the elders but the elders would yeah would 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:50.200 put most of the messages on the on the members 00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:53.640 group as opposed to our prayer channel on whatsapp 00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:55.799 and anyone can feed into that you with me so 00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:59.460 so helping provide some parameters to how this 00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:04.440 communication can work well. And I think, as 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:08.359 I said, and you alluded to this earlier on, Jason, 00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:12.579 is that I think people's experience of, particularly 00:26:12.579 --> 00:26:16.200 when they vent quite publicly, sometimes their 00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:19.259 experience, even in church context, is that they've 00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:24.599 been told, you can't talk like that around here. 00:26:25.510 --> 00:26:32.130 And so just not just coming down with the fun 00:26:32.130 --> 00:26:33.650 police, as it were. Do you know what I mean? 00:26:33.690 --> 00:26:38.089 How do we help people in the discipleship sort 00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:40.410 of process of being a believer and working in 00:26:40.410 --> 00:26:43.329 this area of communication rather than just closing 00:26:43.329 --> 00:26:45.750 them down? And we've had one particular lady 00:26:45.750 --> 00:26:51.369 that has vented in the past, but we haven't just 00:26:51.369 --> 00:26:54.509 shunned her. And that's enabled her just to... 00:26:54.730 --> 00:26:57.089 stick around just a little bit more and be involved 00:26:57.089 --> 00:26:59.589 more in your church life and that's yeah i think 00:26:59.589 --> 00:27:01.509 that i think that's that's a learning experience 00:27:01.509 --> 00:27:04.349 for her as well not just to be ostracized for 00:27:04.349 --> 00:27:08.710 speaking her mind megan you had an example of 00:27:08.710 --> 00:27:13.109 someone who regularly disconnected and reconnected 00:27:13.109 --> 00:27:16.309 yeah um thinking of somebody at my church who 00:27:16.309 --> 00:27:21.410 will quite routinely um take offense and when 00:27:21.410 --> 00:27:23.849 he takes offense he will storm literally storm 00:27:23.849 --> 00:27:27.509 out He's actually a member of that particular 00:27:27.509 --> 00:27:30.970 life group that meets twice a week. And so he 00:27:30.970 --> 00:27:34.049 might disappear from church services for a while, 00:27:34.109 --> 00:27:36.990 but he will stay connected with that small group. 00:27:37.490 --> 00:27:40.410 And it just shows to me the importance of those 00:27:40.410 --> 00:27:44.250 relationships and also for us to have grace for 00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:47.539 each other. In those situations when that does 00:27:47.539 --> 00:27:51.440 happen, there is a conversation between him and 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:53.259 the church, you know, one of the church leaders 00:27:53.259 --> 00:27:56.720 will reach out and connect. And it's also recognizing 00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:01.160 through those conversations what has triggered 00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:04.500 that response. You know, it's very often something 00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:07.859 that was said in a sermon unintentionally that 00:28:07.859 --> 00:28:10.519 has caused offense. And so working through that 00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:14.420 together is a real learning point for both parties. 00:28:15.349 --> 00:28:17.650 And tell us just something of your own story 00:28:17.650 --> 00:28:20.569 and how about your own voice you feel has changed 00:28:20.569 --> 00:28:24.890 and been heard more over time. Yeah, so I started 00:28:24.890 --> 00:28:28.470 working for LCM a couple of years ago. And through 00:28:28.470 --> 00:28:32.589 that work, I was working at my church one day 00:28:32.589 --> 00:28:35.809 a week. And through that, I was able to have 00:28:35.809 --> 00:28:40.470 much more of a voice into church life. But what 00:28:40.470 --> 00:28:43.130 it really showed me is actually before I'd been 00:28:43.130 --> 00:28:46.509 behind the scenes, I was very critical and I 00:28:46.509 --> 00:28:49.990 would notice things on the surface that I would 00:28:49.990 --> 00:28:53.690 take offence at and I would not see reasons for 00:28:53.690 --> 00:28:57.670 decisions. And yeah, being behind the scenes 00:28:57.670 --> 00:29:01.750 and working more closely with the pastors. Actually 00:29:01.750 --> 00:29:05.589 building a relationship with them away from Sunday 00:29:05.589 --> 00:29:09.670 service really helped me to tackle my own prejudices 00:29:09.670 --> 00:29:14.630 and my own assumptions about things. And so it's 00:29:14.630 --> 00:29:18.150 helped us both, me to have a voice, but also 00:29:18.150 --> 00:29:21.589 me to recognise areas where I needed to grow. 00:29:22.250 --> 00:29:24.490 Yeah, so taking that opportunity for kind of 00:29:24.490 --> 00:29:26.950 everyday discipleship and everyday connection 00:29:26.950 --> 00:29:29.369 with those in our congregations can really help. 00:29:30.220 --> 00:29:32.420 Thank you, Megan. And so we've been thinking 00:29:32.420 --> 00:29:35.180 about the relationship communication between 00:29:35.180 --> 00:29:40.599 congregation members and leadership. Now, just 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:44.519 to flip between leaders, this is a dialogue where 00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:46.480 we're hearing leaders communicate with one another 00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:49.160 and leaders who are from different backgrounds. 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:52.720 So how can we deal with those different styles 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.859 of communication better? Yeah. And I say this 00:29:56.859 --> 00:29:58.740 with some of our fellow elders in the room. And 00:29:58.740 --> 00:30:02.460 so I'm thankful that, yeah, over the years, as 00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:04.660 we've got to know each other, we've got to understand 00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:08.299 our communication styles and how we deal differently. 00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:13.160 But also the beauty of those working together. 00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:17.299 Are you with me? So and I think what I mean, 00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:21.819 one of I'm a conflict avoider by nature. And 00:30:21.819 --> 00:30:24.779 so when. when communication has been hard sometimes 00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:28.460 within our elders meetings, for example. One 00:30:28.460 --> 00:30:32.259 of my fellow elders now understands that if I'm, 00:30:32.259 --> 00:30:35.099 yeah, just feeling a little bit hurt or what, 00:30:35.220 --> 00:30:38.180 I would just stop communicating. I just, yeah, 00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:41.720 I just want to talk. And over the years that 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:44.000 we've worked together, he's been able to pick 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.700 up on that. And then outside of the meeting, 00:30:46.779 --> 00:30:49.839 just have opportunity to, yeah, to chew over 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:54.299 that. But that takes time. Yeah, that does take 00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:57.400 time. I think as eldership grows, as we think 00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:01.359 about crossing classes and crossing culture, 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:06.900 we want to pray that God raises up more leaders 00:31:06.900 --> 00:31:09.359 from diverse cultural backgrounds. And that will 00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:12.299 take time to learn different communication styles. 00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:15.539 And I think one of the other important things 00:31:15.539 --> 00:31:19.579 I would say is that make sure that the only time 00:31:19.579 --> 00:31:23.329 that... that you're communicating with your fellow 00:31:23.329 --> 00:31:25.990 elders, your fellow church leaders is not just 00:31:25.990 --> 00:31:30.849 in meetings, do life together. So yeah, I've 00:31:30.849 --> 00:31:33.309 enjoyed football matches with some of our elders. 00:31:33.390 --> 00:31:38.750 We have an elders day away, once a year, but 00:31:38.750 --> 00:31:41.029 the night before we go away, we go to a different 00:31:41.029 --> 00:31:44.369 church to be fed by God's word. And then we just 00:31:44.369 --> 00:31:47.029 go out and we hang out together. And I think, 00:31:47.029 --> 00:31:50.259 yeah, just try and be... Not try and be friends. 00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:55.259 You should be friends. But if we're going to 00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:59.059 model in one sense, yeah, fellowship and friendship 00:31:59.059 --> 00:32:02.039 in community, let's model that at a leadership 00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:04.759 level as well. And that takes intentionality. 00:32:04.759 --> 00:32:07.460 You say it should be the case. It takes intentionality, 00:32:07.460 --> 00:32:10.220 planning, time for a lot of us. I know Adrian 00:32:10.220 --> 00:32:12.440 Reynolds mentioned recently in a podcast, Five 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:15.380 Voices. It's not a resource that I've used, fivevoices 00:32:15.380 --> 00:32:19.799 .com, but it's a way of... analyzing different 00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:23.519 ways that people in your team speak sort of sort 00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:27.119 of free assessment sort of thing it's not particularly 00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:29.900 tuned to class but it is just a way of thinking 00:32:29.900 --> 00:32:32.759 when I hear someone say these kinds of things 00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:35.980 where do they tend to be coming from And that 00:32:35.980 --> 00:32:38.359 can be a helpful thing for us to think about. 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.180 Again, there's some little tips in this book 00:32:41.180 --> 00:32:43.759 as well that I'm flagging. I'm under orders, 00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:47.839 so I'm doing that. But we are now going to go 00:32:47.839 --> 00:33:02.329 to our final little vignette. When you let the 00:33:02.329 --> 00:33:05.390 whole counsel of God, his whole story, not just 00:33:05.390 --> 00:33:08.089 a verse here or there, shape your imagination, 00:33:08.509 --> 00:33:11.849 you begin to see that Paul isn't merely addressing 00:33:11.849 --> 00:33:15.230 behavior. He's re -narrating what it means to 00:33:15.230 --> 00:33:19.470 be human in Christ, calling us out of the thin 00:33:19.470 --> 00:33:23.190 stories of this age and into a spirit -breathed 00:33:23.190 --> 00:33:25.930 life that only finds coherence under the lordship 00:33:25.930 --> 00:33:29.269 of Jesus. For a moment, the sermon reminds Sarah 00:33:29.269 --> 00:33:33.069 of something else entirely. Make sure you take 00:33:33.069 --> 00:33:36.089 the full course of antibiotics, not just until 00:33:36.089 --> 00:33:39.349 the symptoms die down. In my experience, you 00:33:39.349 --> 00:33:42.930 should feel things resolving in a few days. When 00:33:42.930 --> 00:33:45.170 the gospel is allowed to tell us who we are, 00:33:45.309 --> 00:33:47.829 fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of 00:33:47.829 --> 00:33:52.150 our creator. But Sarah's mind is elsewhere. Okay, 00:33:52.349 --> 00:33:57.250 but what about Tuesday? There's a damp patch 00:33:57.250 --> 00:33:59.529 on my ceiling that hasn't dried in two weeks. 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.859 And my supervisor said to me, next time I'm late, 00:34:03.019 --> 00:34:09.059 he won't be so understanding. On my commute this 00:34:09.059 --> 00:34:12.219 week, I was thinking about how blessed I am to 00:34:12.219 --> 00:34:17.019 know Jesus and to walk with him day by day. I 00:34:17.019 --> 00:34:19.820 just needed something to hold on to today, something 00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:22.780 to get me through the week. She tries to stay 00:34:22.780 --> 00:34:25.960 with it. When scripture retrains our imagination, 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:29.280 then we see more clearly the way God sees the 00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:35.340 world. I don't think he can see me. And if he 00:34:35.340 --> 00:34:40.239 can't, maybe God can't either. They say home 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:42.679 groups help, but if this is the kind of language 00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:45.059 we use, I'll just be the one who doesn't follow. 00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:49.780 And that's before I notice their kitchen. One 00:34:49.780 --> 00:34:52.820 more story about house purchases. Never pay the 00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:57.820 asking price. I thought I was coming to church, 00:34:57.940 --> 00:35:10.269 but... Feels like I walked into a school. Okay. 00:35:12.849 --> 00:35:16.510 Unspoken assumptions about teaching style and 00:35:16.510 --> 00:35:20.130 content can make some people feel alienated. 00:35:20.989 --> 00:35:23.269 In using this example, I want to be clear again, 00:35:23.329 --> 00:35:26.170 we're not trying to make a moral judgment. There 00:35:26.170 --> 00:35:29.730 are many different... fitting styles of teaching. 00:35:29.989 --> 00:35:32.650 The question is always, who is our audience? 00:35:32.989 --> 00:35:35.849 Who do we want to reach? Who's in front of us? 00:35:36.250 --> 00:35:39.909 And we just want to remember that it's possible 00:35:39.909 --> 00:35:45.250 to communicate deep, complex truths in ways that 00:35:45.250 --> 00:35:49.670 aren't diluted, but are still accessible. Paul 00:35:49.670 --> 00:35:51.650 said in my message and preaching, we're not with 00:35:51.650 --> 00:35:53.769 wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration 00:35:53.769 --> 00:35:56.860 of the Spirit's power. J .C. Ryle said, unless 00:35:56.860 --> 00:35:59.159 you are simple in your sermons, you will never 00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:01.760 be understood. And unless you are understood, 00:36:02.179 --> 00:36:05.980 you cannot do good to those who hear you. So 00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:08.460 this is what we're trying to dig into in this 00:36:08.460 --> 00:36:13.619 section. So question, Megan, how have your church 00:36:13.619 --> 00:36:17.659 been helping to maximize the understanding and 00:36:17.659 --> 00:36:20.900 connection that goes on in sermons? Yeah, so 00:36:20.900 --> 00:36:24.420 quite recently, my church leaders have started 00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:29.400 to invite feedback after the sermons. So alongside 00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:32.059 the Bibles, they'll put out a paper with some 00:36:32.059 --> 00:36:34.619 reflection questions on them, and then they'll 00:36:34.619 --> 00:36:36.519 collect them again at the end of the sermons. 00:36:36.539 --> 00:36:38.780 And it gives them a chance to really evaluate 00:36:38.780 --> 00:36:42.699 how people in the church body are really connecting 00:36:42.699 --> 00:36:46.519 or not connecting with the sermons. And it's 00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:49.900 enabled them to really... take on board that 00:36:49.900 --> 00:36:53.559 feedback and be responsive to it. And yeah, I'm 00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:56.159 just really impressed by that, by their humility 00:36:56.159 --> 00:37:01.599 in doing that. Yeah, another LCM has said recently 00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:04.039 in our church, we've got Jan who left school 00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:06.480 when she was 13 and Jim, who's a director at 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:09.139 Golden Sacks. If both leave encouraged and convicted, 00:37:09.260 --> 00:37:11.699 it's a world -class sermon. So there's something 00:37:11.699 --> 00:37:16.889 to aim for. Kev, one thing that... You found 00:37:16.889 --> 00:37:19.190 helpful is a particular tool that you've come 00:37:19.190 --> 00:37:22.130 across tell us about that Yeah, so some of you 00:37:22.130 --> 00:37:24.369 will have heard of an American, Brian Chappell. 00:37:24.489 --> 00:37:26.170 He has something called the fallen condition 00:37:26.170 --> 00:37:29.949 focus when it comes to our preaching. And what 00:37:29.949 --> 00:37:33.070 it helps us do when we're preparing sermons is 00:37:33.070 --> 00:37:35.449 thinking not just, okay, what does this teach 00:37:35.449 --> 00:37:37.869 me intellectually a truth about God, but how 00:37:37.869 --> 00:37:41.289 does this affect my heart? And because we are 00:37:41.289 --> 00:37:44.090 all fallen and we live in a fallen world, it 00:37:44.090 --> 00:37:50.440 helps us get under the skin. In one sense, the 00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:52.500 world class sermon, if we ever going to preach 00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:55.840 one of those. But it helps us think, what is 00:37:55.840 --> 00:38:00.139 universally true about us as fallen people that 00:38:00.139 --> 00:38:02.739 this particular passage of scripture can speak 00:38:02.739 --> 00:38:05.760 to? So then that helps fuel our application. 00:38:06.500 --> 00:38:10.719 It helps fuel our illustrations, as it were. 00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:15.340 One of the things, one of the big things in those 00:38:15.340 --> 00:38:18.739 living on council states is. You don't have to 00:38:18.739 --> 00:38:22.739 teach them that God exists. They're quite theistic 00:38:22.739 --> 00:38:26.320 sort of cultures. So you're not trying to, in 00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:29.579 one sense, argue from a head nod, but actually 00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:32.440 what difference is this part of scripture going 00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:36.219 to make in my life when I leave church on Sunday 00:38:36.219 --> 00:38:38.920 afternoon after we've had lunch? What difference 00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:40.739 is this going to make for me on Monday morning 00:38:40.739 --> 00:38:42.739 when I'm trying to wrestle with kids and get 00:38:42.739 --> 00:38:46.170 them to school? Yeah, whatever it might be. Trying 00:38:46.170 --> 00:38:47.889 to think, how does this speak to our hearts? 00:38:48.309 --> 00:38:50.670 Thank you. And when we talk about fallen condition 00:38:50.670 --> 00:38:54.610 focus, we're not discounting the fact that actually 00:38:54.610 --> 00:38:59.570 people are also sufferers. It's not that everything 00:38:59.570 --> 00:39:02.869 in our lives is either saintly or sinful. We 00:39:02.869 --> 00:39:05.590 recognize that, and so does Brian Chappell. But 00:39:05.590 --> 00:39:07.369 just to make that point, that word fallen can 00:39:07.369 --> 00:39:10.869 take us down a route that isn't quite where he's 00:39:10.869 --> 00:39:14.690 going. We have more to say on this, but... we 00:39:14.690 --> 00:39:17.429 need to allow time for questions. I think we've 00:39:17.429 --> 00:39:21.389 reached our cutoff. And so I'm going to draw 00:39:21.389 --> 00:39:25.809 stumps there and give you a chance to respond 00:39:25.809 --> 00:39:29.050 to some of what we've said. We're happy to talk 00:39:29.050 --> 00:39:31.150 more, but it'd be great to give you a chance 00:39:31.150 --> 00:39:33.530 to respond to what you've heard.