There is, God willing, a quote on the screen
from a woman called Jackie Pullinger. She said
this, don't tell someone about Christ unless
you're willing to give them your bed. Jackie
Pullinger is a missionary in Hong Kong, mainly
reaching out to those who are recovering from
drug addiction. And her simple point was that
the call to follow Christ is a call to become
part of Christ's family. And so the implication
for us as Christians is to be ready to be that
family for others. And the reality is that the
bigger the differences there are between us and
the people we call, then sometimes the bigger
the demands that can place on us. Certainly different
demands are placed. on us and we want to think
together today about what it looks like to put
philippians 2 4 into practice to consider the
interests of others before our own to be people
who put hospitality into practice to welcome
others into our space so that they might become
our friends We've heard already that class is
a difficult thing to pin down, doesn't stand
still, it's elusive. And yet it is this word
that categorizes us along economic and cultural
lines. And we want to dig into some ways in which
we can navigate that. So you've heard a little
bit from Megan and from Kevin. Just say a little
bit more about what your roles involve before
we move on. So Megan, start us off. Yeah, so
I work in Camden and Islington and my role has
a special focus on working with people on council
estates and with seniors. I grew up on a council
estate myself in North London and I didn't have
a Christian influence for over 30 years. So I've
got a particular passion for reaching people
in the context like the one that I came out of.
Yeah, and as well as looking after South London,
I have the privilege of overseeing our council
state and seniors ministry. Elsewhere exists
to be igniting a movement of mission in the local
church. And so our missional teams are working
alongside other churches to help them to reach
out. onto communities like estates the two and
a half million people that are living on social
housing of some sort and yeah just being equipped
to share the gospel and to do life with people
living in those communities we want to stress
that our sins are like scarlet we are people
who've made mistakes who are still making mistakes
and yet we're here today because we believe that
Jesus has washed us whiter than snow and we want
to be part of the conversation, not because we
have got it right and always have done things
perfectly. We're learning and on a journey along
with you guys. And just putting that into practice,
I wrote this little book a couple of years ago
on crossing cultures for church leaders, talking
about class and different things. And one of
the first things I say in that is that the first
sermon I gave on a council estate to people walked
out and said they'd never come back to church
again. The first evangelistic event I put on
as I planted a church and a council estate, I
thought it'd be great to call it tiramisu. This
seemed like a really good idea. The one guy gets
the irony up there. And I guess that just shows
how I was importing a way of life that I had
inherited and learned, even without realizing
it, into my ministry. And we can all do that.
And as Matthew said earlier, we want to learn,
pick up on those blind spots. And the particular
theme that we want to think about together now
is the theme of communication and how communication
can act as an invisible barrier within church
life. And we're going to look at that through
three lenses, through the lens of personal interactions,
through the lens of the way that leaders interact
with one another. And then finally, through public
teaching. And the way that we're going to do
that is we're going to hear three fictional dramatized
dialogues. OK, so you're going to hear this fictional
dramatized dialogue. Think about the archers.
Think about EastEnders. That's what we're talking
about. But it's only three minutes and you're
going to hear it and then we're going to discuss
it. We're going to use it as a basis for our
discussion. So let's see if the technology works.
We're going to go straight into the first one.
Yeah, we might actually be in Brighton over half
-term. Yeah, a uni friend of mine lives down
there now. Said we should come down while the
kids are still, you know, young enough to enjoy
it. Nice. We'll be in Manchester. My old housemates
planted a church up there. Be good to see what
God's up to. What about you, Mark? Um, not sure
yet. Probably just staying local. Ah, nice. I
feel like there's something really grounding
about that, you know. Greg and David move on.
Mark stays where he is for a moment. Yeah, grounding.
Have you tried the oat milk? It's actually not
bad. Okay, we'll look at this example. Perhaps
you can get it. There's something about geography
here, okay? And how geographical place can cause
tension. and confusion. I want to be clear, we're
not intending to make a moral judgment about
where your friends live and whether it's okay
for them to live close or far away. We're picking
up on something that came up a little bit in
the last session, David Goodhart's somewheres
versus anywheres sort of motif. And that paradigm
basically says this, that somewheres are rooted
locally and find their identity through local
belonging, whereas anywheres are mobile. and
find their identity mainly through achievement.
Now, you can't push that too far. Matthew's already
touched on that. Another reason you can't push
it too far is thinking about diaspora communities
who have a strong sense of place locally, but
also a sense of place and connection with people
who are in another place. See, that's an example
of where this idea breaks down. But our experience
is that some communities have this hyper local
focus. So a friend of mine, Chris Rogers, is
over in East London. He says he would identify
himself as working class as a pastor. And he
says that the way that he thinks about his own
way of moving through the world is reputation
earned through reciprocity for the sake of reliability.
Reputation. So he's trying to. maintain his social
status with those around him and he does that
through reciprocity can be given take of interacting
with people locally and he does that because
he's learned over time that when the gas meter
gets to zero or you need money to buy some chips
it's people who are local who will be able to
help you out and so actually his life is focused
on being local reputation with his close colleagues
through reciprocity, what they do for one another,
for the sake of reliability. When things go wrong,
there's someone who can help you. And so we want
to move to a time of discussion. And the first
question is, how do we address this kind of lack
of rootedness that some of our congregations
can have in church life? Yeah. I think I want
to start off with just some pastoral honesty.
I think that the hyper -local focus of estates
and being there, rooting in a community, and
the difficulty that sometimes, even if you're
a little bit further away from those communities,
that can have the impact that can have on church
life and family life. So real life, I suppose,
example for us at the church that... an elder
out in Vauxhall. We had a local Eritrean family.
We had seen them wonderfully. Yeah, the mum comes
to faith, then the dad comes to faith. They're
three boys. They all live in a one bedroom flat.
It was a tight squeeze. And eventually they were
able to find another flat with a little bit more
space. It was only a mile and a half away from
where we are in Vauxhall. But that mile and a
half has just created some difficulties in them
just being involved in everyday life. Yeah, in
the church family, in all honesty, they probably
feel a little bit more separate from the church.
family and i think it's just that honesty of
understanding how much sort of the the local
focus and just being in every everyday life and
just bumping into people when you're going to
test goes does make a big difference and it and
it helps us i suppose when we think about church
life not just speak the gospel but live out the
gospel in the way that you're under the gaze
of yeah yeah watching eyes as you can in a local
focus okay so there's something about being local,
helping us to disciple one another. And I think
of a woman who we all know who came to faith
recently. I call her Rebecca. She was in prison
for a long time through the evangelistic work
that happened in that prison. She became a Christian.
She's out now. And her sense was, speaking to
her over lunch recently, was that I need, once
a week is not enough. That was her phrase, once
a week is not enough, by which she meant going
to a Bible study once a week for some kind of
discipleship wasn't enough to keep her going
and to keep her from falling back into the old
patterns that she had escaped from being liberated
from in Christ. And I know you've got a story
off the back of that, Megan. Yeah, so I have
a friend who was saved when he was in prison.
And whilst he was in prison, he was having that
kind of daily faith. support journey. There were
various prison ministries going into prison,
conducting Bible studies and small groups and
the Sunday service. He was having a Bible study
with other prisoners on his wing and it was a
daily input every day. And he was reading the
Bible avidly. He wanted to get plugged into the
church as soon as he came out. But what he found
was he had this picture of the early church in
the book of Acts, and he thought that it would
be a replication of what he had experienced in
prison. And when he came out, he just didn't
find that. And it really, yeah, it really disappointed
him. OK, and I remember having a conversation
with Matthew in the lead up to this, and he mentioned.
The wisdom that you see in morning and evening
prayer within the Anglican life of the church,
a rooted daily expression of the gospel that
people can come to, whether they can even read
or not, that is there for people. That's not
necessarily the model for everyone, but it's
just striking that there's a sense in which that
meets a need that actually is sometimes there.
Let's move on to... the practical impact that
this can have in shaping church life. I know
that midweek groups can work differently in this
kind of context, Kev. Yeah, and I think when
we use that language of midweek groups, we're
not talking just about Bible study. I suppose
that the wider ministries that some of our churches
will be able to offer as a way of... bridging
the gap just between the only thing we can invite
someone to is a Sunday service. And some of these
ministries that give the opportunity for people
to start building relationships with Christians
in their local community and sort of feeds off
the back of what Megan's saying is they need
more than just, yeah, a meeting, one meeting
a week. I suppose one of the things that we've
identified is that... There is the danger, though,
of people that are around in the week being able
to be involved in these midweek ministries, as
opposed to then some people that can, because
of work or family commitments, only be there
on a Sunday or maybe make one midweek meeting
a week in the evening. And so you end up... Sometimes
with the danger of two different congregations,
you've got the people that feel happy and more
comfortable in a midweek setting in some of the
outreach events that we'll be doing. And then
they come to church on a Sunday and then they
just see this completely new group of people
that they just have limited interaction with.
One lady said to us about one of the midweek
ministries that we run on a Friday. church for
me with me and sort of thinking that's an aspect
of what it means to belong to church but it's
not it's not sort of the whole sort of picture
it's not that when you come on a friday it's
not the whole gather church um yeah on a on a
sunday and it's we're just trying to work out
what that looks like for us in our context and
it's because the cultural gap is smaller one
of the reasons is the cultural gap is smaller
coming to that session on friday morning, afternoon
even. Lunch. Lunchtime. Coming to that session
feels like a smaller cultural leap than coming
even on a Sunday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I suppose
in one sense, there will be maybe more people
from a similar context because it's, again, more
hyper -local focused, people that are there midweek.
I suppose there is a similarity, as it were,
for quite a lot of the people that will be coming
along. Okay. Megan, you wanted to say something
about the flip side of this, how we draw people
in as a first step. Yeah, I think maybe not looking
at it as a negative that they are viewing that
as church, but viewing it more as it is a step
towards church. And that it can be an opportunity
to actually broaden that network of support,
a network of contacts that they have through
that first initial step of a group like that,
introducing them to more people from the wider
church body so that when they do make that step
into church, it's more comfortable. Yeah, thank
you. Now, one of my colleagues made a really
interesting point as we were talking about this
in the preparation. His observation was that
in his church, which is really mixed across class
and cultural lines, that there are some people
who from a middle class background have made
a commitment to be part of that church for a
number of years. And then after a period of time,
feel a real sense of emotional struggle. And
it's partly because. They feel like their closest
friends who are most like them have moved away
and they then feel a sense of loss from that.
And my colleague's observation was that this
raises the issue of us, if you're from a middle
class background, administering in an environment
where it's very cross -cultural, where maybe
reaching into a different kind of class and counting
the cost of that. counting the cost of that they're
recognizing that actually that's going to be
painful and that sometimes his observation is
that people haven't really counted the cost of
what that will mean long term to make that step,
to do that. And it raises, I guess, two questions.
You know, how do we prepare people to do that
if that's our context? But secondly, how do we
deepen relationships with the people who we are
ministering to? The reality is those people who
are in our churches should be our family. So
how do we deepen those relationships so it doesn't
feel such a wrench, such a loss? What do you
say to that, Megan? Yeah, I intend a... Central
London Church is a gathered church and most of
us travel in to church, which I think is quite
a common thing for Central London churches now.
And so I've been really thinking with the leaders
about what our small groups look like and who's
attending them, who's attending which groups,
because we've got a number of groups. Some which
meet in people's houses, some which meet online,
some are a hybrid, some meet utilizing this church
building and thinking about who's going to those
groups. What the makeup of those groups are and
what makes some of those groups more or less
accessible to people who live in social housing
or in more from a more vulnerable, marginalized
background. So we were looking at some of the
groups have a much more traditional kind of structure.
So a short time of introduction, catch up. followed
by quite a formal Bible study looking at a set
of questions that come from the text that links
to the sermon from the Sunday. And those groups
don't tend to be very diverse in their makeup.
The pastor has actually pioneered a new kind
of model from his small group. So it's much more
focused on connection. So he's flipped that.
that structure on its head really. So they meet
and the focus is on connection. So that instead
of having a 10 -minute quick catch -up, the bulk
of the small group is focused on that catch -up.
So they eat together, but it's a two -course
meal. And between the two courses, they would
then share communion. They would then maybe share
a proverb or a psalm. engaged together in conversation
about that over dessert and then they'd finish
with prayer for each other um and then we have
another quite specific small group that has taken
a bit of both and it's really interesting because
the makeup of that group is um like it's completely
the people who come from social housing and vulnerable
marginalized backgrounds um and so they actually
have have made the decision to meet twice a week
rather than just once a week and the first meet
is after the sermon on a Sunday where they just
meet to connect and then the midweek group they
follow on from that connection but they also
then look together at scripture and what they
found is that the people in that group are very
comfortable to all share together because they
all come from very similar backgrounds there's
no kind of their morals filled that group and
actually some of the people that have connected
with church but then might not be attending on
a regular basis they are attending that small
group both times a week and they're connecting
with each other outside of that group as well
so it shows that that model is really working
for those people. Fantastic okay I think I'm
going to move us on to scenario two. And the
power is in my hand. Okay, let's go. So, the
WhatsApp group. Yeah, I've been reading it. Don't
think it's all that bad. I mean, yeah, it's a
little bit messy. But at least he's saying what
he feels rather than just letting it fester.
But he said it to 60 people. I know. Let's be
honest. People tiptoe around conflict for years
in churches. He's hurt. And he's naming it. If
we clamp down now, we're teaching him honesty
just gets punished around here. Public naming
isn't the same as honesty, though. It's already
landed on people who had nothing to do with it.
I've had two messages this morning from people
who don't even know how this started. They're
just caught in it now. I'm worried that if we
let this run, we multiply the damage. Or... We
let it breathe. Trust the spirit can work for
an open conversation. Let's be honest, people
have seen worse on a WhatsApp group. But this
isn't banter that got out of hand. Someone's
been named. And the people reading it, they didn't
sign up to be an audience for this. Some conversations
need walls, not a stage. Agency matters, yeah?
But so does pastoral responsibility. If we don't
step in, we're effectively saying that... Going
public on the group is an acceptable way to handle
being hurt. Okay, what we're dealing here with
is a different scenario. It's differences in
communication style that are playing out among
the leaders who are having a conversation here,
but also playing out amongst the congregation
online. And how do we manage that? Now, of course,
you don't know all the details of the scenario,
but we're thinking about the communication and
how that... works out um there's an interesting
observation from uh one of our lcms that people
who often are pretty outspoken don't necessarily
last long in their church and i guess the question
is how do we manage that how do we navigate that
over to you kevin yeah i mean i suppose feeding
first and foremost off the of our first sort
of session or our first discussion, as we get
to know people and as we spend life with people,
we understand a little bit more about the situation
and a little bit more about their history. And
so when a scenario like this happens, the better
we know our congregants, we can sort of think,
okay, is this a hurting sheep? Is this someone
that... either intentionally or unintentionally
has been hurt by someone and this is their way
of reacting um and i think as we understand are
they are they a hurting sheep it helps us then
think okay How are we then going to deal with
this situation? Are we going to cut down on this?
Are we going to deal with patience with this
particular individual? Does it mean a one -on
-one conversation with this person? So I think
understanding the individual. yeah what they're
going through it might be something that they're
just going through at that particular point in
their life that um yeah this is a reaction to
yeah yeah a situation that is in one sense is
not a normal reaction for them so i think i think
yeah yeah are they are they wondering um or are
they hurting sorry another one is then is is
what they are communicating is this Is this sinful
in what they're communicating? Or is this heretical
in what they're communicating? And through that,
are they then going to damage the wider church
family? I think understanding that, are they
hurting or are they wandering, helps us then
think, how are we going to deal with this situation?
I've got a lovely church member who came to faith
later on in her life. And she has this wonderful
way of gossiping the gospel. And it's lovely
to see. But particularly in a state context,
gossip and talk and backstabbing is a big problem
as well. And so in this scenario, is this moaning
going on? Or is there wider gossip that we need
to sort of speak into as well? And that goes
wider than a WhatsApp communication. Yeah, if
you want to know what's going on on the estate
on a Friday, go and hang around with the people
after lunch, come having a fag outside and you
just get a different picture, as it were. But
then challenging. I think then particularly when
we've got believers that are in the community,
challenging them sometimes on actually how they're
using their words, not just on WhatsApp, but
just in general. Are they gossiping in an ungodly
way about people living in the community? I think
from, again, our experience in WhatsApp, I love
spending time with people. I love seeing people
face to face. WhatsApp, if I could do away with
it, would be my ideal. But I understand there
are blessings to it as well. So then what guidance
can we put on in our groups? And so, again, how
we've worked that out in some of our groups is
that there are limits on who can. yeah who who
can sort of put a message on the group um yeah
so on the on the members group um not just limited
to the elders but the elders would yeah would
put most of the messages on the on the members
group as opposed to our prayer channel on whatsapp
and anyone can feed into that you with me so
so helping provide some parameters to how this
communication can work well. And I think, as
I said, and you alluded to this earlier on, Jason,
is that I think people's experience of, particularly
when they vent quite publicly, sometimes their
experience, even in church context, is that they've
been told, you can't talk like that around here.
And so just not just coming down with the fun
police, as it were. Do you know what I mean?
How do we help people in the discipleship sort
of process of being a believer and working in
this area of communication rather than just closing
them down? And we've had one particular lady
that has vented in the past, but we haven't just
shunned her. And that's enabled her just to...
stick around just a little bit more and be involved
more in your church life and that's yeah i think
that i think that's that's a learning experience
for her as well not just to be ostracized for
speaking her mind megan you had an example of
someone who regularly disconnected and reconnected
yeah um thinking of somebody at my church who
will quite routinely um take offense and when
he takes offense he will storm literally storm
out He's actually a member of that particular
life group that meets twice a week. And so he
might disappear from church services for a while,
but he will stay connected with that small group.
And it just shows to me the importance of those
relationships and also for us to have grace for
each other. In those situations when that does
happen, there is a conversation between him and
the church, you know, one of the church leaders
will reach out and connect. And it's also recognizing
through those conversations what has triggered
that response. You know, it's very often something
that was said in a sermon unintentionally that
has caused offense. And so working through that
together is a real learning point for both parties.
And tell us just something of your own story
and how about your own voice you feel has changed
and been heard more over time. Yeah, so I started
working for LCM a couple of years ago. And through
that work, I was working at my church one day
a week. And through that, I was able to have
much more of a voice into church life. But what
it really showed me is actually before I'd been
behind the scenes, I was very critical and I
would notice things on the surface that I would
take offence at and I would not see reasons for
decisions. And yeah, being behind the scenes
and working more closely with the pastors. Actually
building a relationship with them away from Sunday
service really helped me to tackle my own prejudices
and my own assumptions about things. And so it's
helped us both, me to have a voice, but also
me to recognise areas where I needed to grow.
Yeah, so taking that opportunity for kind of
everyday discipleship and everyday connection
with those in our congregations can really help.
Thank you, Megan. And so we've been thinking
about the relationship communication between
congregation members and leadership. Now, just
to flip between leaders, this is a dialogue where
we're hearing leaders communicate with one another
and leaders who are from different backgrounds.
So how can we deal with those different styles
of communication better? Yeah. And I say this
with some of our fellow elders in the room. And
so I'm thankful that, yeah, over the years, as
we've got to know each other, we've got to understand
our communication styles and how we deal differently.
But also the beauty of those working together.
Are you with me? So and I think what I mean,
one of I'm a conflict avoider by nature. And
so when. when communication has been hard sometimes
within our elders meetings, for example. One
of my fellow elders now understands that if I'm,
yeah, just feeling a little bit hurt or what,
I would just stop communicating. I just, yeah,
I just want to talk. And over the years that
we've worked together, he's been able to pick
up on that. And then outside of the meeting,
just have opportunity to, yeah, to chew over
that. But that takes time. Yeah, that does take
time. I think as eldership grows, as we think
about crossing classes and crossing culture,
we want to pray that God raises up more leaders
from diverse cultural backgrounds. And that will
take time to learn different communication styles.
And I think one of the other important things
I would say is that make sure that the only time
that... that you're communicating with your fellow
elders, your fellow church leaders is not just
in meetings, do life together. So yeah, I've
enjoyed football matches with some of our elders.
We have an elders day away, once a year, but
the night before we go away, we go to a different
church to be fed by God's word. And then we just
go out and we hang out together. And I think,
yeah, just try and be... Not try and be friends.
You should be friends. But if we're going to
model in one sense, yeah, fellowship and friendship
in community, let's model that at a leadership
level as well. And that takes intentionality.
You say it should be the case. It takes intentionality,
planning, time for a lot of us. I know Adrian
Reynolds mentioned recently in a podcast, Five
Voices. It's not a resource that I've used, fivevoices
.com, but it's a way of... analyzing different
ways that people in your team speak sort of sort
of free assessment sort of thing it's not particularly
tuned to class but it is just a way of thinking
when I hear someone say these kinds of things
where do they tend to be coming from And that
can be a helpful thing for us to think about.
Again, there's some little tips in this book
as well that I'm flagging. I'm under orders,
so I'm doing that. But we are now going to go
to our final little vignette. When you let the
whole counsel of God, his whole story, not just
a verse here or there, shape your imagination,
you begin to see that Paul isn't merely addressing
behavior. He's re -narrating what it means to
be human in Christ, calling us out of the thin
stories of this age and into a spirit -breathed
life that only finds coherence under the lordship
of Jesus. For a moment, the sermon reminds Sarah
of something else entirely. Make sure you take
the full course of antibiotics, not just until
the symptoms die down. In my experience, you
should feel things resolving in a few days. When
the gospel is allowed to tell us who we are,
fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of
our creator. But Sarah's mind is elsewhere. Okay,
but what about Tuesday? There's a damp patch
on my ceiling that hasn't dried in two weeks.
And my supervisor said to me, next time I'm late,
he won't be so understanding. On my commute this
week, I was thinking about how blessed I am to
know Jesus and to walk with him day by day. I
just needed something to hold on to today, something
to get me through the week. She tries to stay
with it. When scripture retrains our imagination,
then we see more clearly the way God sees the
world. I don't think he can see me. And if he
can't, maybe God can't either. They say home
groups help, but if this is the kind of language
we use, I'll just be the one who doesn't follow.
And that's before I notice their kitchen. One
more story about house purchases. Never pay the
asking price. I thought I was coming to church,
but... Feels like I walked into a school. Okay.
Unspoken assumptions about teaching style and
content can make some people feel alienated.
In using this example, I want to be clear again,
we're not trying to make a moral judgment. There
are many different... fitting styles of teaching.
The question is always, who is our audience?
Who do we want to reach? Who's in front of us?
And we just want to remember that it's possible
to communicate deep, complex truths in ways that
aren't diluted, but are still accessible. Paul
said in my message and preaching, we're not with
wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration
of the Spirit's power. J .C. Ryle said, unless
you are simple in your sermons, you will never
be understood. And unless you are understood,
you cannot do good to those who hear you. So
this is what we're trying to dig into in this
section. So question, Megan, how have your church
been helping to maximize the understanding and
connection that goes on in sermons? Yeah, so
quite recently, my church leaders have started
to invite feedback after the sermons. So alongside
the Bibles, they'll put out a paper with some
reflection questions on them, and then they'll
collect them again at the end of the sermons.
And it gives them a chance to really evaluate
how people in the church body are really connecting
or not connecting with the sermons. And it's
enabled them to really... take on board that
feedback and be responsive to it. And yeah, I'm
just really impressed by that, by their humility
in doing that. Yeah, another LCM has said recently
in our church, we've got Jan who left school
when she was 13 and Jim, who's a director at
Golden Sacks. If both leave encouraged and convicted,
it's a world -class sermon. So there's something
to aim for. Kev, one thing that... You found
helpful is a particular tool that you've come
across tell us about that Yeah, so some of you
will have heard of an American, Brian Chappell.
He has something called the fallen condition
focus when it comes to our preaching. And what
it helps us do when we're preparing sermons is
thinking not just, okay, what does this teach
me intellectually a truth about God, but how
does this affect my heart? And because we are
all fallen and we live in a fallen world, it
helps us get under the skin. In one sense, the
world class sermon, if we ever going to preach
one of those. But it helps us think, what is
universally true about us as fallen people that
this particular passage of scripture can speak
to? So then that helps fuel our application.
It helps fuel our illustrations, as it were.
One of the things, one of the big things in those
living on council states is. You don't have to
teach them that God exists. They're quite theistic
sort of cultures. So you're not trying to, in
one sense, argue from a head nod, but actually
what difference is this part of scripture going
to make in my life when I leave church on Sunday
afternoon after we've had lunch? What difference
is this going to make for me on Monday morning
when I'm trying to wrestle with kids and get
them to school? Yeah, whatever it might be. Trying
to think, how does this speak to our hearts?
Thank you. And when we talk about fallen condition
focus, we're not discounting the fact that actually
people are also sufferers. It's not that everything
in our lives is either saintly or sinful. We
recognize that, and so does Brian Chappell. But
just to make that point, that word fallen can
take us down a route that isn't quite where he's
going. We have more to say on this, but... we
need to allow time for questions. I think we've
reached our cutoff. And so I'm going to draw
stumps there and give you a chance to respond
to some of what we've said. We're happy to talk
more, but it'd be great to give you a chance
to respond to what you've heard.