WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.419 You hire adults, smart people that you interview. 00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:06.000 You choose the people that you're hiring. Don't 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:07.860 treat them like children once they're here. You 00:00:07.860 --> 00:00:10.439 know, you're not running a daycare. I don't care 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:12.720 about your bathroom breaks. I don't give a shit 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:15.259 when you work, where you work, how you work. 00:00:15.339 --> 00:00:17.239 Just do the damn work. And if you do, everybody's 00:00:17.239 --> 00:00:19.839 good. People in their late 30s, early 40s that 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:21.719 are just like, I have a baby and I don't want 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:23.640 to tell them that I work for Meta. There's a 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:25.539 lot of like guilt about where they're working 00:00:25.539 --> 00:00:28.489 now and like... what the impacts of that have 00:00:28.489 --> 00:00:31.609 become, you know, across the planet and society. 00:00:32.149 --> 00:00:34.109 And they just want to, like, do something that 00:00:34.109 --> 00:00:36.229 they'll be proud of as well. I'm at a certain 00:00:36.229 --> 00:00:38.490 age. I'm having a hard time getting jobs anymore. 00:00:38.750 --> 00:00:41.049 It's like, ah, I'm going to start my own thing. 00:00:41.130 --> 00:00:42.789 What should I think about? I'd be like, well, 00:00:42.850 --> 00:00:45.469 for me, there's one thing is, can you fucking 00:00:45.469 --> 00:00:47.710 sell? Because if you do, you're dead in the water. 00:00:51.149 --> 00:00:54.090 Welcome to Under Embargo, the podcast that says 00:00:54.090 --> 00:00:56.750 the quiet part out loud about PR, communications, 00:00:57.030 --> 00:01:00.570 and the chaos in between. Hosted by two of LinkedIn's 00:01:00.570 --> 00:01:03.530 most connected comms pros, Becca Chambers, a 00:01:03.530 --> 00:01:06.189 no -BS corporate comms exec with raging ADHD, 00:01:06.650 --> 00:01:09.969 and Pari Hedrick, founder of tech PR firm Crackle 00:01:09.969 --> 00:01:13.390 PR. This show brings it all. Real talk, sharp 00:01:13.390 --> 00:01:15.849 insights, and the kind of industry truths they 00:01:15.849 --> 00:01:18.989 don't put in press releases. No fluff, no filters, 00:01:19.189 --> 00:01:22.760 no f***s given. This is Under Embargo. Let's 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:25.799 get into it. Welcome to today's episode of Under 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:28.700 Embargo. I am Becca Chambers, CMO at Scale Venture 00:01:28.700 --> 00:01:31.500 Partners, joined as always by my, I don't know, 00:01:31.500 --> 00:01:33.200 I was going to think of a fun adjective, but 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:35.439 I'm just going to go with handsome, handsome 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:39.959 as ever, sidekick, co -host, founder of Crackle 00:01:39.959 --> 00:01:43.689 PR, Perry Hedrick. hello today we are joined 00:01:43.689 --> 00:01:46.489 by a product marketer which is interesting because 00:01:46.489 --> 00:01:49.129 it is outside of our usual comms bubble but she 00:01:49.129 --> 00:01:52.810 has a passion for disrupting the status quo and 00:01:52.810 --> 00:01:55.150 she's worked at companies like brex ashby jasper 00:01:55.150 --> 00:01:59.209 so you know she's legit but now she has a consultancy 00:01:59.209 --> 00:02:01.450 that helps other people build their own fractional 00:02:01.450 --> 00:02:05.099 businesses and to quote her Disrupt the Status 00:02:05.099 --> 00:02:09.800 Bro, which I love. And she also started the Strategic 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:13.219 Pivotry Substack, which is a total mouthful, 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:17.280 but it helps burnt out tech workers build high 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:20.840 earning consultancy practices. So I am excited 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:23.659 to get into the pivotry with today's guest, Meg 00:02:23.659 --> 00:02:26.759 Shedding. Welcome to the show. Thank you very 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:29.259 much. I'm excited to be in the presence of a 00:02:29.259 --> 00:02:34.800 Southern Hampshire celebrity like Paris. Yes, 00:02:34.900 --> 00:02:37.639 I'm epic in southern New Hampshire. Big, big 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:40.020 there. Known across the land and through the 00:02:40.020 --> 00:02:42.439 trees. You got to move places like that so you 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:44.439 don't get recognized and harassed every day. 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:48.099 Right, Perry? That is correct. Although on the 00:02:48.099 --> 00:02:49.659 last show, Becca, I think I mentioned that I 00:02:49.659 --> 00:02:51.280 have been spotted in public a couple of times. 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:53.139 People are like. that's Barry from LinkedIn. 00:02:53.300 --> 00:02:56.419 And my wife's like, shut the hell up. What? You 00:02:56.419 --> 00:02:58.280 couldn't believe it. Like what? Somebody recognize 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:02.219 your fool ass? But occasionally I do actually 00:03:02.219 --> 00:03:05.840 get recognized. So talk us through what you do. 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:08.360 What is a fractional anything? Like I know what 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:09.979 it is. Becca knows what it is, but our audience 00:03:09.979 --> 00:03:12.180 may not know. Yeah. I know you guys talked to 00:03:12.180 --> 00:03:15.560 Roberto about being a fractional CMO. I feel 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:18.719 like that's harder. I feel like I have a pretty 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:21.669 good lane in terms of like what, you know, clients 00:03:21.669 --> 00:03:24.550 often need from me so the way i like to do it 00:03:24.550 --> 00:03:27.189 is kind of embed at least you know three to six 00:03:27.189 --> 00:03:30.169 months at like 20 to 25 hours so that's what 00:03:30.169 --> 00:03:33.530 i think of as like fractional um just in terms 00:03:33.530 --> 00:03:35.330 of like time commitment and i like to have like 00:03:35.330 --> 00:03:38.870 one client at a time i know some people juggle 00:03:38.870 --> 00:03:40.849 multiple clients i'm already not good at context 00:03:40.849 --> 00:03:44.150 switching so that is that is not for me um but 00:03:44.150 --> 00:03:46.770 essentially i usually work with early to like 00:03:46.770 --> 00:03:49.090 high growth stage companies that have kind of 00:03:49.090 --> 00:03:51.960 hit um a ceiling in terms of them being able 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:54.620 to like founder -led sales you know sell to the 00:03:54.620 --> 00:03:57.280 y accommodator bro network and then they actually 00:03:57.280 --> 00:03:59.580 have to sell into the wild and they actually 00:03:59.580 --> 00:04:03.360 need to like put all of that juice into marketing 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:06.060 and sales material so that they can you know 00:04:06.060 --> 00:04:08.479 give it to other sales people to other marketers 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:11.340 and actually kind of like do a whole foundational 00:04:11.340 --> 00:04:15.180 um reframe of like what's working in their messaging 00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:17.850 and positioning and what's not And a lot of times 00:04:17.850 --> 00:04:20.410 what I do with Ashby in particular, I've been 00:04:20.410 --> 00:04:23.550 with them in almost every series stage of their 00:04:23.550 --> 00:04:25.750 funding. And a lot of it is like, hey, we keep 00:04:25.750 --> 00:04:27.930 going up market. We don't understand those customers 00:04:27.930 --> 00:04:30.689 as much. Can you go talk to 15 of them? Do they 00:04:30.689 --> 00:04:33.629 even know who we are? What do they care about? 00:04:33.810 --> 00:04:36.129 What does their buyer journey look like as opposed 00:04:36.129 --> 00:04:38.949 to founder -led sales? And that's kind of like 00:04:38.949 --> 00:04:41.550 the ecosystem I like to play in. I do a lot of 00:04:41.550 --> 00:04:43.829 like market validation, voice of the customer 00:04:43.829 --> 00:04:48.670 work, but it's also just tailored. my question 00:04:48.670 --> 00:04:51.949 is what you just described 80 of comms people 00:04:51.949 --> 00:04:55.310 are like i do that too right how is comms and 00:04:55.310 --> 00:04:58.189 product marketing different how are they the 00:04:58.189 --> 00:05:00.129 same how do you work with the comms people in 00:05:00.129 --> 00:05:02.430 these early stage companies are there comms people 00:05:02.430 --> 00:05:05.769 like tell me about all of that yeah yeah that 00:05:05.769 --> 00:05:09.430 is it really is something that's probably lacking 00:05:09.430 --> 00:05:11.670 in most early stage companies i don't know you 00:05:11.670 --> 00:05:14.629 know when when you guys are consulting with certain 00:05:14.629 --> 00:05:17.439 companies but they they might have an external 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:21.879 pr agency right like very specific i've listened 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:24.160 to your pod there's a lot of great like we're 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:27.199 gonna get in like you know we're gonna get in 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:30.379 this really great publication and with our little 00:05:30.379 --> 00:05:32.199 tiny startup so there's a lot of expectations 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:36.120 there but pulling back if i think of who i'm 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:40.139 usually hired by is ahead of marketing they're 00:05:40.139 --> 00:05:45.759 doing like everything um They have maybe like 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:48.759 a junior growth hacker, you know, who's starting 00:05:48.759 --> 00:05:53.040 to test LinkedIn and outbound. Maybe they have 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:56.600 like a demand gen kind of process set up, but 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.160 no one has ever really actually looked at the 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:02.120 brand at a high level. I usually work with them. 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:04.399 And my, what I like to say is like, you need 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:07.300 a brand or comms person in here as soon as possible. 00:06:07.379 --> 00:06:11.040 Cause to me. The company strategy is the brand, 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:14.240 is the company story, right? Thank you for saying 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:16.779 that, product marketer, because I feel like product 00:06:16.779 --> 00:06:19.680 marketers don't always get that. Carry on. I 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:21.339 was going to say, I'm a very different product 00:06:21.339 --> 00:06:25.579 marketer than if I was at Intuit and I was in 00:06:25.579 --> 00:06:28.540 charge of literally one button as a product marketer, 00:06:28.540 --> 00:06:31.980 right? And even by the time I left Brex, we had... 00:06:33.300 --> 00:06:35.980 15 pmms right so you start to get narrow and 00:06:35.980 --> 00:06:38.579 narrow you literally don't even care about the 00:06:38.579 --> 00:06:41.639 brand because your brand is yeah the button or 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:44.000 like the experience on the credit card we're 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:45.920 selling and like for me it was expense management 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.199 software i got lucky because i got to do like 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:50.199 a category shift for them like they had only 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:52.600 been in credit cards they were doing sass software 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:54.819 which was very different and there was definitely 00:06:54.819 --> 00:06:57.910 a learning curve of like paying some young people 00:06:57.910 --> 00:07:01.129 in utah to like get people to sign up for credit 00:07:01.129 --> 00:07:04.269 cards with rewards to like selling software yeah 00:07:04.269 --> 00:07:07.189 it's very different too but yeah a lot of times 00:07:07.189 --> 00:07:09.329 in early stage they kind of like are outsourcing 00:07:09.329 --> 00:07:12.310 pr they don't really they they don't really they're 00:07:12.310 --> 00:07:14.910 not connecting all the dots yeah between like 00:07:14.910 --> 00:07:17.089 for me i always think of myself as a go -to marketer 00:07:17.089 --> 00:07:19.410 when i'm at an early stage because part of it 00:07:19.410 --> 00:07:21.050 is also like are these products that different 00:07:21.050 --> 00:07:23.959 do we really need to talk internal baseball and 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:25.360 like call them something different or can we 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.600 just say like here's a solution yeah do people 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:31.620 when you latch on to a company in that capacity 00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:35.040 do you feel that it it's important to get the 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:37.160 vibe that they're viewing you as a partner or 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:39.819 or does it really matter if it's transactional 00:07:39.819 --> 00:07:42.040 or not like do you need to be like on the team 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.360 or are you comfortable being kind of a vendor 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:47.279 doing the job i can go either way personally 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:49.740 i talk about this in my sub stack that i am like 00:07:49.740 --> 00:07:53.949 110 percent person. So for me, consulting is 00:07:53.949 --> 00:07:56.569 important just because I'm looking at my hours 00:07:56.569 --> 00:07:58.870 and I'm looking at it as somewhat of a transaction. 00:07:59.209 --> 00:08:02.050 It just helps me like rein myself in because 00:08:02.050 --> 00:08:04.329 I can go in there and be like, whoa, whoa, there's 00:08:04.329 --> 00:08:06.290 a lot to work on here. But I'm like, this is 00:08:06.290 --> 00:08:08.990 my scope. This is what I'm helping with. Right. 00:08:09.269 --> 00:08:10.970 And this is what I'm getting paid for, frankly. 00:08:10.990 --> 00:08:13.870 Yeah, exactly. And every time I sort of overstep 00:08:13.870 --> 00:08:15.470 those bounds, I have to think of it as like I'm 00:08:15.470 --> 00:08:18.230 taking money out of my own pocket. Yeah, that's 00:08:18.230 --> 00:08:20.079 smart. It just helps me rein myself in. because 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:22.100 i am one of those people can i follow up speaking 00:08:22.100 --> 00:08:24.519 of the money piece i actually wonder do you do 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:27.839 like a like a flat fee type thing or do you ever 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:30.079 do equity or like how do you structure it is 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:32.779 it kind of every every company's a snowflake 00:08:32.779 --> 00:08:36.840 a little bit sadly which is a crappy answer but 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:40.159 i will say um for the most part i tend to do 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:43.360 like a monthly retainer that's tied to like you 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:46.000 know percentage of my time or like 20 to 30 hours 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:49.019 a week and that's going to be on average And 00:08:49.019 --> 00:08:50.940 then you can tie that back into an hourly rate. 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:54.159 But to me, it's all about like, I have come up 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.320 with, here are the outcomes. Here's what you're 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:59.019 getting. And then like the hourly rate is not 00:08:59.019 --> 00:09:01.500 important to them because - You say, I'm going 00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:03.340 to do these, I'm going to drive these outcomes 00:09:03.340 --> 00:09:05.059 for this amount of money. And then it doesn't 00:09:05.059 --> 00:09:06.500 matter how much you work. Like you could work 00:09:06.500 --> 00:09:08.500 one hour a week if you drove set out. Who gives 00:09:08.500 --> 00:09:11.620 a shit? Yeah. I try to tell, when I coach people, 00:09:11.700 --> 00:09:13.720 I try to tell them that. Yeah. We're sharing 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:17.700 a template. that spent you spent like three years 00:09:17.700 --> 00:09:21.860 iterating on amazing companies that is not worth 00:09:21.860 --> 00:09:25.240 a click of a button and third or 30 minutes yeah 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:28.240 you know bill based on value and like people 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:32.139 don't question it What is the Abraham Lincoln 00:09:32.139 --> 00:09:34.580 quote? It's something like, give me eight hours 00:09:34.580 --> 00:09:36.679 to chop down a tree and I'll spend seven hours 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:39.960 sharpening my axe. I think this is actually kind 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:42.659 of a paradigm shift. It shouldn't be a paradigm 00:09:42.659 --> 00:09:44.559 shift because everyone should have been thinking 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:46.220 about outcomes when they're doing their jobs 00:09:46.220 --> 00:09:47.899 anyways. It should have been the way everyone 00:09:47.899 --> 00:09:50.899 approached work, but there weren't. Managers 00:09:50.899 --> 00:09:52.860 just wanted to see your butt in seat. They just 00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:54.179 wanted to see that you were at your computer. 00:09:54.379 --> 00:09:56.919 They do give a shit about the outcomes, but that's 00:09:56.919 --> 00:09:58.820 not what they're looking at. I feel like now, 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:02.019 empower everyone just be like here's what you 00:10:02.019 --> 00:10:03.820 have to do here are the outcomes you have to 00:10:03.820 --> 00:10:05.980 drive good however you want to get there do it 00:10:05.980 --> 00:10:09.200 and then everyone will value based pricing value 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.740 based pricing like you want to do it in a tree 00:10:11.740 --> 00:10:13.559 house you want to do it on a beach if that makes 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.080 you happy and makes you less cranky when you 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:18.480 have to be on a meeting totally let them do it 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:21.940 yeah i know and it's like if if they start shitting 00:10:21.940 --> 00:10:24.360 the bed then you have a problem but until then 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:27.899 like Let adults be adults. This is like I used 00:10:27.899 --> 00:10:30.879 to get on this soapbox and be like, you hire 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:33.659 adults, smart people that you interview. You 00:10:33.659 --> 00:10:36.120 choose the people that you're hiring. Don't treat 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:38.320 them like children once they're here. You know, 00:10:38.379 --> 00:10:41.320 you're not running a daycare. I write about that 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:42.820 same thing all the time. I'm like, look, I don't 00:10:42.820 --> 00:10:44.740 care about your bathroom breaks. I don't give 00:10:44.740 --> 00:10:47.559 a shit when you work, where you work, how you 00:10:47.559 --> 00:10:49.779 work. Just do the damn work. And if you do, everybody's 00:10:49.779 --> 00:10:53.159 good. yeah yeah i'm i'm i really got over the 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:55.840 like performative meetings having to be on like 00:10:55.840 --> 00:11:01.519 a zoom happy hour no i think that is something 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:03.460 i think about this a lot because i have a lot 00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:05.419 of friends who have gone like into the fractional 00:11:05.419 --> 00:11:07.480 or even just into like pure consulting where 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:09.940 they have like one client for six months and 00:11:09.940 --> 00:11:14.039 then they move on or whatever but they all have 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:17.039 this freedom of like, I don't have to waste my 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:19.679 time on just stupid ass calls all day. I mean, 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:22.059 they go to the meetings that they need to be 00:11:22.059 --> 00:11:23.860 able to do their job, but it's not just all this 00:11:23.860 --> 00:11:27.539 extra stuff that is performative things that 00:11:27.539 --> 00:11:29.840 you have to do when you work in a larger organization. 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:33.519 And sometimes when I have 13 meetings back to 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:36.460 back, I am so jealous of my friends in that situation. 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:38.440 They can also turn down the meetings that aren't 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:41.149 relevant to them because it's like, nope. I do 00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:43.789 that. Yeah. That's like, do you really want me 00:11:43.789 --> 00:11:45.769 in this meeting? And that kind of reminds them 00:11:45.769 --> 00:11:48.990 that like of my hourly rate. Yeah, exactly. I 00:11:48.990 --> 00:11:51.570 also like the way that I pitch myself and I try 00:11:51.570 --> 00:11:54.330 to help people pitch themselves is like people 00:11:54.330 --> 00:11:57.029 believe you're going to be, you're being fair 00:11:57.029 --> 00:11:58.970 on your pricing if you also tell them you're 00:11:58.970 --> 00:12:01.750 trying to work yourself out of a job. So I will 00:12:01.750 --> 00:12:03.490 say I'm going to be here for three to six months. 00:12:03.950 --> 00:12:07.269 What you need is like foundational messaging. 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:10.240 that actually lands. So instead of just like 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:13.399 doing a hundred tests on a headline, like let's 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:15.980 do it systematically, then that's like the fuel 00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:18.519 for your sales and marketing engine. And I will 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:20.759 sometimes say like, you can pay me that hourly 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:23.639 rate to make a sales deck, but I can also help 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:26.879 you hire a junior PMM or get you a designer. 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:29.200 Right. And it's like, they immediately know that 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:31.539 they're only paying for like, what is the most 00:12:31.539 --> 00:12:34.419 valuable thing? Just like, you know, consultants 00:12:34.419 --> 00:12:36.080 get a bad rap. It's like, it's just all about 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:39.980 billing or like hourly. I mean, that's why I 00:12:39.980 --> 00:12:42.799 think that the more people that go to the outcomes 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:45.740 -based billing, I mean, AI has to do it now too, 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:49.799 right? It's going to be more productive for everybody. 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:53.139 And then you don't have that anxiety of, are 00:12:53.139 --> 00:12:55.480 they just wasting their time? I don't even know 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:57.519 what they're working on. They haven't driven 00:12:57.519 --> 00:12:59.539 any outcomes, but they've billed me for 40 hours. 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:02.440 Yeah, what are they doing? And you do have to 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:04.580 be more proactive in the sense that you might 00:13:04.580 --> 00:13:06.220 not be top of mind. You might not be in every 00:13:06.220 --> 00:13:08.700 team meeting. So just be proactive when you're, 00:13:08.700 --> 00:13:11.100 you know, giving status updates. I feel like 00:13:11.100 --> 00:13:14.179 this is a good segue to something else that you 00:13:14.179 --> 00:13:16.659 do. I mean, you have said in your bio that you 00:13:16.659 --> 00:13:19.340 help employees break out of their indentured 00:13:19.340 --> 00:13:22.240 servitude and, you know, very dramatic language, 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:25.600 which I appreciate. I love well -articulated. 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:27.340 Drop your shackles. You've got your messaging 00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:29.980 down. But, like, talk about that. Like, what 00:13:29.980 --> 00:13:32.759 does that mean? What is the indentured servitude 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:38.360 kind of, you know? line mean for you and for 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:41.659 your clients yeah another way that i put it that 00:13:41.659 --> 00:13:43.960 i've been working on in terms of testing messaging 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:47.279 is like corporate corporate domestication oh 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:50.279 yeah when you're in when you're working for a 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:53.159 company all the scaffolding is there for you 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:56.379 not just like the kombucha or like the dong insurance 00:13:56.379 --> 00:13:59.399 or whatever but like you don't have to do your 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:01.740 own business development you don't have to build 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:04.200 You don't have to like try to find your own health 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:06.320 care. You don't have to do your own taxes in 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:08.299 the sense that like the tax is already taken 00:14:08.299 --> 00:14:11.019 out for you. So there's all this like kind of 00:14:11.019 --> 00:14:15.600 admin stuff. And also there's the side of the 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.620 corporation has given you a really easy like 00:14:18.620 --> 00:14:23.360 cloak of identity and worth. You become, you 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:25.379 know, fractional or into you're working for yourself. 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:29.820 There's. pros and cons to that like i have talked 00:14:29.820 --> 00:14:32.100 to people who have like gone through a riff or 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:34.399 big you know big layoff at google or meta and 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:36.559 they come to me and they're like the man you 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:39.019 know like i want to be fractional like i want 00:14:39.019 --> 00:14:41.740 to like and then i tell them well you have to 00:14:41.740 --> 00:14:44.379 get your own clients you have you have to be 00:14:44.379 --> 00:14:46.600 okay selling yourself that's it's like there's 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:49.019 a huge sales component to running your own business 00:14:49.019 --> 00:14:52.120 that most people have not ever done before yep 00:14:54.129 --> 00:14:56.350 Right. So there's that. There's like, do you 00:14:56.350 --> 00:14:59.049 have health care? What are you doing about that? 00:14:59.169 --> 00:15:01.269 I will say, like, I'm married to a public school 00:15:01.269 --> 00:15:03.649 teacher. We have amazing health care. That is 00:15:03.649 --> 00:15:06.470 not like if we lived, you know, in Europe, this 00:15:06.470 --> 00:15:09.809 would be different. Everybody could be. But I'll 00:15:09.809 --> 00:15:11.970 talk to someone like that and I'll realize they 00:15:11.970 --> 00:15:14.210 have Stockholm syndrome. They'll come back to 00:15:14.210 --> 00:15:15.570 me in three months. They're like, yeah, I kind 00:15:15.570 --> 00:15:17.429 of want you to coach me. They come back in three 00:15:17.429 --> 00:15:19.230 months. They're like, yeah, I took a job at, 00:15:19.309 --> 00:15:22.500 you know. netflix like they can't get out of 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:24.740 it they can't do it like it's they're too far 00:15:24.740 --> 00:15:28.360 gone into like that domesticated lifestyle i 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:32.440 would argue that i am that that like i know my 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:37.620 brain knows that in theory i would succeed as 00:15:37.620 --> 00:15:40.879 an entrepreneur and i would probably love doing 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:42.960 it and i would love being my own boss and whatever 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.500 and i cannot rip the band -aid to do that because 00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:50.149 i have this like frame in my brain of what i 00:15:50.149 --> 00:15:53.029 have to do in order for my life to continue like 00:15:53.029 --> 00:15:55.950 at the pace and whatever that it is like it is 00:15:55.950 --> 00:15:59.210 like i don't know just the idea of it's not even 00:15:59.210 --> 00:16:01.909 that it's scary it's that like it's like i shouldn't 00:16:01.909 --> 00:16:04.870 do it right like i should be i should love the 00:16:04.870 --> 00:16:08.049 you know corporate world thing that we've always 00:16:08.049 --> 00:16:10.659 grown up in and it's fascinating you saying that 00:16:10.659 --> 00:16:13.360 it's literally living on the edge when you go 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:15.480 out on your own and obviously i've done that 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:17.500 i've been doing that for five years now but when 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:19.919 people are starting like tech pr agencies they're 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:22.440 like you know what i'm at a certain age i'm having 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:25.080 a hard time getting jobs anymore it's like ah 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:27.200 i'm gonna start my own thing what what should 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:29.440 i think about i'm like well for me there's one 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:32.730 thing is can you sell because if you you're dead 00:16:32.730 --> 00:16:35.129 in the water. So like ask yourself, look in the 00:16:35.129 --> 00:16:38.169 mirror and say, can I go out there and sell my 00:16:38.169 --> 00:16:41.070 ass off to close business? And if I cannot get 00:16:41.070 --> 00:16:42.710 a job in house somewhere, because you're not 00:16:42.710 --> 00:16:44.909 going to make it. I like to think of myself as 00:16:44.909 --> 00:16:48.389 feral. Like, you know, the whole like sales, 00:16:48.450 --> 00:16:50.889 you know, metaphors of like what you have to, 00:16:50.909 --> 00:16:54.070 you have to eat what you kill. You know, you're 00:16:54.070 --> 00:16:59.059 a hunter. I like social engineering and gamifying 00:16:59.059 --> 00:17:02.259 social connections on LinkedIn. So I'm really 00:17:02.259 --> 00:17:05.000 good at that part. And I don't mind selling myself 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:07.220 because I know like all that money is coming 00:17:07.220 --> 00:17:10.259 into my pocket. And it's like I made a job out 00:17:10.259 --> 00:17:13.500 of nothing. I can like message a head of marketing 00:17:13.500 --> 00:17:16.559 in a certain growth stage and like ping them 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:20.099 and be like, hey, do you have any PMM? I mean, 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:22.539 you're on the podcast because you sent me a DM, 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:25.660 right? Isn't that how we got? You were like, 00:17:25.779 --> 00:17:28.220 hi, I have this perspective to offer and I like 00:17:28.220 --> 00:17:29.779 your podcast and maybe you would like me on your 00:17:29.779 --> 00:17:33.119 show. And I was like, yeah, sure. Because I'm 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:38.519 New Hampshire famous now. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:42.200 I'm okay with that. So many people I talk to 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:44.740 who are thinking about being fractional or especially 00:17:44.740 --> 00:17:48.779 women. Yeah. So uncomfortable with that. It is 00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:50.440 really a hurdle for them. But you know what's 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:52.660 interesting? It's not even just selling themselves. 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:57.480 It is literally sharing. I did this thing that 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:00.259 was good. Women have a hard time just saying 00:18:00.259 --> 00:18:02.720 that, which isn't even trying to sell yourself. 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:05.180 It's literally just stating what you do well, 00:18:05.380 --> 00:18:07.720 you know? And I was just talking about this with 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:09.440 somebody the other day because, oh, I was at 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.940 this event, lovable event that was very great. 00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:14.920 And one of the... head of comms at lovable was 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:16.480 complimenting the woman who put on the event 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.119 and she was like no it wasn't me and whatever 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:21.220 and i was like take credit this is incredible 00:18:21.220 --> 00:18:25.119 you should be proud of what you did don't downplay 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.940 it you're a marketer market your success right 00:18:27.940 --> 00:18:31.660 and i it drives me nuts because i just want children 00:18:31.660 --> 00:18:36.119 have no shoes well i always say like you know 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.400 why are you you can be a hype person for a product 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.720 you know you have to put the obligatory post 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:43.279 on like dan at a job that's like We're thrilled 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.180 to announce this feature release, which you don't 00:18:46.180 --> 00:18:48.559 really care about and has like deadened your 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.980 soul, but you can't talk about yourself and like 00:18:50.980 --> 00:18:53.460 your own worth. It's a whole thing. It's a whole 00:18:53.460 --> 00:18:55.900 thing. I've actually been working on creating 00:18:55.900 --> 00:18:59.220 like a small collective where I actually take 00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:01.720 off some of the business development for them 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.039 because I get embedded into these startups. I 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.299 talked to a lot of VCs. I am kind of creating 00:19:06.299 --> 00:19:09.299 this almost like roster that then I can share 00:19:09.299 --> 00:19:12.869 out to those people who are like, i need a list 00:19:12.869 --> 00:19:14.890 of fractionals or like i need a growth person 00:19:14.890 --> 00:19:17.849 i can like give them someone and then of course 00:19:17.849 --> 00:19:20.029 i still have to make money so i'm looking at 00:19:20.029 --> 00:19:22.230 like referral fee system or like you're in the 00:19:22.230 --> 00:19:25.029 collective i help really put together so that 00:19:25.029 --> 00:19:28.950 you have like a polished deck and story and then 00:19:28.950 --> 00:19:31.630 can help you like farm that out because there's 00:19:31.630 --> 00:19:33.529 so many like i didn't think i didn't get into 00:19:33.529 --> 00:19:36.069 this thinking like that's what people would need 00:19:36.069 --> 00:19:39.710 right but that is what a lot of people need is 00:19:39.710 --> 00:19:42.880 like that that container. I have a question. 00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:45.079 Oh, go ahead. Sorry, just quickly. What do you 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.000 think the biggest draw is on the company side 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.420 for bringing in a fractional person? Is it that 00:19:50.420 --> 00:19:53.279 they can kind of try before they buy or don't 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:55.440 have to commit long term or don't have the resources 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.279 necessarily? Or like, how would you characterize 00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:01.019 the reason why the company looks for the fractional 00:20:01.019 --> 00:20:04.759 marketer or brand person or what have you? Yeah, 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:07.079 I'd say most of the time it's not try before 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:10.210 buy because Well, I think in my case, I usually 00:20:10.210 --> 00:20:13.049 get a lot of like warm referrals. So when I started 00:20:13.049 --> 00:20:14.730 talking to a client, someone may have already 00:20:14.730 --> 00:20:17.269 kind of sold me through and they asked the opposite. 00:20:17.369 --> 00:20:19.430 They're like, gee, why don't you want to be full 00:20:19.430 --> 00:20:21.950 time? They're like, why don't you want to join 00:20:21.950 --> 00:20:24.930 my party? You know, this is a rocket ship. I'm 00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:29.509 like, I've been in a lot of rocket ships. And 00:20:29.509 --> 00:20:31.769 we're just getting started. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm 00:20:31.769 --> 00:20:33.069 like, I don't need to be on the ground floor. 00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:34.930 I don't, I'll take the money, not the equity. 00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:38.390 um so there's that you know but that's like very 00:20:38.390 --> 00:20:41.509 you know this is a warm lead if i'm really talking 00:20:41.509 --> 00:20:45.150 to someone fresh my pitch is like again it's 00:20:45.150 --> 00:20:48.089 sort of a bridge like you don't need a full -time 00:20:48.089 --> 00:20:52.289 pmm yet but really strategic still hands -on 00:20:52.289 --> 00:20:55.549 very tactical messaging to work with these kind 00:20:55.549 --> 00:20:59.049 of disparate marketing functions that so i would 00:20:59.049 --> 00:21:01.410 say that is a lot of it although some of them 00:21:01.410 --> 00:21:03.970 are like very risk averse and it's actually even 00:21:03.970 --> 00:21:07.380 more simple in the fact that like often where 00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:09.380 how i'm getting paid is from a totally different 00:21:09.380 --> 00:21:13.359 bucket in a cox right so this is something that 00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:16.220 they can kind of like put in another budget maybe 00:21:16.220 --> 00:21:18.359 they like take it from somewhere else it doesn't 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:21.240 have to be salary there's no benefits so a lot 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.539 of it is that too is just like they can kind 00:21:23.539 --> 00:21:25.500 of think of this as a marketing experiment and 00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:27.779 i try to encourage them to do that well and when 00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:29.440 you think about the fact that i think the average 00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:33.400 tenure of the marketer today is 18 months right 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:36.039 like i mean that's just crazy like i think in 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.200 our world tech anyway it's like 18 months um 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:40.880 and usually if you were to let go of a marketer 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:43.019 that you hired there's an intractable goodbye 00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:46.460 process and severance and all the yeah and and 00:21:46.460 --> 00:21:49.559 packages and stuff and i guess To an extent, 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:53.440 it's a risk mitigation thing that also makes 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:55.480 it less painful at that tail end of it, right? 00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:57.539 Yeah. I mean, part of it, I think of it as like 00:21:57.539 --> 00:21:59.079 when you're going fractional, you're sort of 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.200 de -risking your career because you can start 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:03.940 to become like more of a portfolioist and have 00:22:03.940 --> 00:22:07.539 different things. And then for them, like the 00:22:07.539 --> 00:22:10.579 startup founder or the CMO is they can say like, 00:22:10.700 --> 00:22:13.019 I don't know if I really believe in this function. 00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:15.359 This happens a lot with like tech heavy or like 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:19.559 engineering based founders. who needs marketing 00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:24.279 the product sells itself no one can do what we 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:27.359 can do yeah this is an all -in -one this is an 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:29.579 operating system the whole platform everybody 00:22:29.579 --> 00:22:34.519 needs it yep um and so for those people i'm really 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:37.000 like very straightforward right about like here's 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:40.559 again outcomes deliverables but i do think there's 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:44.029 something that um They can kind of de -risk on 00:22:44.029 --> 00:22:46.609 their end. They can put it in a different bucket 00:22:46.609 --> 00:22:50.109 of like funds. And then also a lot of times I 00:22:50.109 --> 00:22:52.269 hear like my board has told me I need product 00:22:52.269 --> 00:22:54.049 marketing, but I don't even know what it is. 00:22:54.869 --> 00:22:56.970 Right. You probably get that too on comms. Like 00:22:56.970 --> 00:22:58.849 we know we need comms. We don't know what it 00:22:58.849 --> 00:23:01.210 is. You know, I tend to walk away from those 00:23:01.210 --> 00:23:03.910 engagements, honestly, if possible, diplomatically, 00:23:04.009 --> 00:23:05.710 because life's too short to work for somebody 00:23:05.710 --> 00:23:08.250 that doesn't understand. Or people who think 00:23:08.250 --> 00:23:10.210 that they understand it and want to dictate how 00:23:10.210 --> 00:23:12.130 it works, which is also an issue. I've come up 00:23:12.130 --> 00:23:15.569 a lot with like engineer founders or product 00:23:15.569 --> 00:23:18.789 -focused founders because they do feel like, 00:23:18.849 --> 00:23:21.089 well, this is my baby. I'm going to dictate how 00:23:21.089 --> 00:23:23.829 it is. So then you're literally just a taskmaster. 00:23:24.089 --> 00:23:26.289 And it's like, what's taskmaster? What's the 00:23:26.289 --> 00:23:29.430 point? Like, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, I work 00:23:29.430 --> 00:23:31.450 with founders that are still, even at like a 00:23:31.450 --> 00:23:33.789 500 % company, are still editing a blog post. 00:23:33.950 --> 00:23:37.700 Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. You know, I have a question. 00:23:37.900 --> 00:23:41.039 So that's like treating people as adults. Yeah. 00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:43.559 And also don't, I mean, if that's what you want 00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.799 to do, then hire junior people to do the business. 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.740 Don't hire for two reasons. One, you're wasting 00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:51.680 money and two, you're going to drive your smart 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.259 person insane because you've hired them for their 00:23:54.259 --> 00:23:56.799 brain. And instead you're using them for like 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.200 clicking buttons. You know, I have a question 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.539 because you are only one person and this is something 00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:05.769 I come up against is like, i have more things 00:24:05.769 --> 00:24:08.569 i want to do than i have time to do so do you 00:24:08.569 --> 00:24:12.230 in your fractional role have to bring in other 00:24:12.230 --> 00:24:14.470 people to outsource some things to are you like 00:24:14.470 --> 00:24:17.690 growing almost like in an agency fashion how 00:24:17.690 --> 00:24:20.690 does that work yeah i've thought about going 00:24:20.690 --> 00:24:23.430 agency i just haven't wanted to yet like i'm 00:24:23.430 --> 00:24:27.869 really happy being an independent yeah at the 00:24:27.869 --> 00:24:29.869 moment but that's kind of what i'm thinking about 00:24:29.869 --> 00:24:31.710 with this collective like so instead of having 00:24:31.710 --> 00:24:34.710 an agency where i'm subcontracting out I'm starting 00:24:34.710 --> 00:24:37.849 basically collecting really smart people who 00:24:37.849 --> 00:24:40.549 can plug in and in the gaps that all has come 00:24:40.549 --> 00:24:43.690 up, you know, in each kind of startup and then, 00:24:43.690 --> 00:24:46.630 you know, sell them through. And then of course 00:24:46.630 --> 00:24:49.470 they give me a referral or, you know, a cut of, 00:24:49.529 --> 00:24:53.150 of their take. But to me, that's a better model, 00:24:53.210 --> 00:24:55.650 at least for me right now, because I don't want 00:24:55.650 --> 00:24:57.569 to be a full -time business owner of other people. 00:24:57.589 --> 00:25:00.849 Cause I'm still trying to figure out like the 00:25:00.849 --> 00:25:04.150 constellation of my own products. Yeah. writing 00:25:04.150 --> 00:25:06.589 my sub stack coaching you know individual coaching 00:25:06.589 --> 00:25:09.410 for people that are you know that that want to 00:25:09.410 --> 00:25:11.569 fractionalize themselves and then like being 00:25:11.569 --> 00:25:14.690 embedded in a startup yep for me i haven't wanted 00:25:14.690 --> 00:25:17.690 to go the agency route yet but i do a lot of 00:25:17.690 --> 00:25:20.049 referrals and it happens every time i go into 00:25:20.049 --> 00:25:22.190 a company they realize oh here's just like a 00:25:22.190 --> 00:25:24.470 generally smart helpful person and they'll say 00:25:24.470 --> 00:25:27.369 what you know what go -to -market tech stack 00:25:27.369 --> 00:25:29.950 should we use i'm like here we go or like we 00:25:29.950 --> 00:25:32.369 need a demand gen person i'm like hire this person 00:25:33.150 --> 00:25:35.250 you just become kind of like a helpful person. 00:25:35.329 --> 00:25:37.549 And that also, again, kind of goes back to like 00:25:37.549 --> 00:25:41.410 justifying the hourly rate or the return. Totally. 00:25:41.650 --> 00:25:46.049 Adding value everywhere. How is your sub stack 00:25:46.049 --> 00:25:50.470 done? Like how, how new is it? I want to hear 00:25:50.470 --> 00:25:53.589 about what's the cadence with it. And like, have 00:25:53.589 --> 00:25:56.170 you found that it is open doors or conversations 00:25:56.170 --> 00:25:59.009 just like talk through that? Yeah. Yeah. I started 00:25:59.009 --> 00:26:02.869 it in 2024. I was like, you know, a little bit 00:26:02.869 --> 00:26:05.009 earlier on the Substack bandwagon. I feel like 00:26:05.009 --> 00:26:07.230 2025 is when, like, everybody got a Substack. 00:26:07.269 --> 00:26:09.250 I'm, like, very proud that it was, like, a little 00:26:09.250 --> 00:26:12.490 bit earlier to market. And, you know, I had, 00:26:12.569 --> 00:26:17.269 in my early career, I wrote a blog on Zanga .com, 00:26:17.329 --> 00:26:19.150 if you remember that. It was, like, one of those. 00:26:19.150 --> 00:26:22.029 On what Zanga? Zanga, like, LiveJournal, those 00:26:22.029 --> 00:26:24.730 kind of, like, tumblers. I used to write, but 00:26:24.730 --> 00:26:28.009 I, at the time, was working for the mayor of 00:26:28.009 --> 00:26:31.349 New York, Mike Bloomberg. And I was working for 00:26:31.349 --> 00:26:33.029 his chief of staff and he was like, you got to 00:26:33.029 --> 00:26:35.609 shut down that blog. I wasn't talking about anything 00:26:35.609 --> 00:26:38.109 to do with like New York city government, but 00:26:38.109 --> 00:26:40.710 I, it was, it was during that time when like 00:26:40.710 --> 00:26:43.349 you, if you're going to represent a company or 00:26:43.349 --> 00:26:46.150 an organization, you can't say anything personal, 00:26:46.269 --> 00:26:49.210 right? Like so different from today when your 00:26:49.210 --> 00:26:51.809 personal Brown is brand can even help the company. 00:26:52.130 --> 00:26:54.349 But at the time it was so different. So I kind 00:26:54.349 --> 00:26:56.839 of just got like shut down. and just like i don't 00:26:56.839 --> 00:26:59.119 know if i you know i i still wrote a lot to my 00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.180 friends and you know you know in journals but 00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:04.799 i was like i really feel like especially now 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.019 that i am fractional i've been fractional at 00:27:07.019 --> 00:27:09.640 that point for like five years i was like i just 00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:11.720 want to share because so many people were coming 00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:13.940 to me and asking me those things like how do 00:27:13.940 --> 00:27:16.900 you approach this how do you think about going 00:27:16.900 --> 00:27:18.759 to market with yourself that i said i want to 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:23.339 like just put this out here um and also uh definitely 00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:27.289 make fun of tech bros Poke the bear. I mean, 00:27:27.309 --> 00:27:30.470 they pay my bills, so it's a slippery slope. 00:27:30.650 --> 00:27:33.930 But, you know, most of the bros I work with are 00:27:33.930 --> 00:27:37.029 like, you know, on the better side of good. So, 00:27:37.109 --> 00:27:39.490 yeah, that kind of opened doors in the sense 00:27:39.490 --> 00:27:42.250 that people started commenting, people I didn't 00:27:42.250 --> 00:27:44.650 know. There was that wave of like, it's my friends 00:27:44.650 --> 00:27:47.009 and family. And then there's maybe one connection 00:27:47.009 --> 00:27:48.869 removed and then just like random people who 00:27:48.869 --> 00:27:51.789 find it that are, you know, DMing me and are 00:27:51.789 --> 00:27:55.289 really excited about the content. But the one 00:27:55.289 --> 00:27:57.410 thing I have not wanted to do is make it like 00:27:57.410 --> 00:28:01.250 a paid model, just because for me, when you get 00:28:01.250 --> 00:28:03.670 into subscribers and paying subscribers, then 00:28:03.670 --> 00:28:05.829 you have to have a cadence. Then you have to 00:28:05.829 --> 00:28:08.289 start asking like what content is working, what 00:28:08.289 --> 00:28:09.849 content isn't working. It's also guaranteed value. 00:28:10.269 --> 00:28:13.609 You're not trying to, you are offering free value 00:28:13.609 --> 00:28:15.789 to people and they can take it or not, but it's 00:28:15.789 --> 00:28:17.589 not like the expectation is you have to deliver 00:28:17.589 --> 00:28:20.809 all the time. Yeah. And I also like sometimes 00:28:20.809 --> 00:28:24.839 like my latest one was about, going into career 00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:27.720 day and my second graders of my son's second 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:30.579 grade class and like talking about what a career 00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:33.940 really is. And some people like if, if I had 00:28:33.940 --> 00:28:35.839 a paid subscriber base that only wants to hear 00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:38.900 about how to fractionalize themselves, then they 00:28:38.900 --> 00:28:41.480 would be unsubscribed. Right. And like, from 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:43.400 what I've seen and the feedback I'm getting is 00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:46.200 like people like my voice and my take. the the 00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:48.660 container is the same they're okay with it being 00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:52.660 different verticals like i mean you have other 00:28:52.660 --> 00:28:54.380 products right you're not like it's not like 00:28:54.380 --> 00:28:56.359 your sub stack is the thing that's gonna like 00:28:56.359 --> 00:28:59.000 buy your house and send your kids to college 00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:02.660 i actually think right now like the more the 00:29:02.660 --> 00:29:06.000 less gating people do for the stuff that is this 00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:08.740 is me this is what i know this is how i am like 00:29:08.740 --> 00:29:11.380 all the stuff that makes you a human like that's 00:29:11.380 --> 00:29:14.480 that should be free you should be offering that 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:17.019 to everybody and then all of those specific values 00:29:17.019 --> 00:29:18.920 that you add are the things that you charge for 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:21.019 but i think that the sub stack and what you're 00:29:21.019 --> 00:29:23.000 talking about is what is going to make what is 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.059 going to be the differentiator in like a ai age 00:29:26.059 --> 00:29:28.480 when everyone has content and blah blah blah 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:30.740 it's like the content that is like uniquely you 00:29:30.740 --> 00:29:35.539 is going to for sure make you special yeah i 00:29:35.539 --> 00:29:40.730 have a i have a question that is um I kind of 00:29:40.730 --> 00:29:42.089 have my own take on this, but I'm curious to 00:29:42.089 --> 00:29:43.970 know what your take is. So people that come into 00:29:43.970 --> 00:29:47.109 my DMs a lot that are between jobs, got laid 00:29:47.109 --> 00:29:50.910 off or whatever, they tend to be in their like 00:29:50.910 --> 00:29:55.930 late 40s, early 50s. Disproportionately men, 00:29:56.049 --> 00:29:59.569 actually, but some women, too. But it seems like 00:29:59.569 --> 00:30:02.950 that age group in particular is the group that 00:30:02.950 --> 00:30:05.019 is. trying to figure out what the hell comes 00:30:05.019 --> 00:30:08.940 next. And my question, I guess, to you is, are 00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:12.460 you finding that same sort of age pocket is your 00:30:12.460 --> 00:30:14.819 sweet spot in terms of those who are going to 00:30:14.819 --> 00:30:16.259 try to do fractional stuff? And do you think 00:30:16.259 --> 00:30:17.819 there's a correlation or do you think that it's 00:30:17.819 --> 00:30:21.180 coincidence or what do you think? First, I'm 00:30:21.180 --> 00:30:22.779 going to lay down a real hot take, which is like, 00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:28.539 I'm not a fan of Gen X. No, I just mean a lot 00:30:28.539 --> 00:30:30.279 of the, you know, the billionaires fucking things 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:33.539 up all have to happen to be Gen X men. But so 00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:38.319 my the yes and no, the population that often 00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:41.319 comes to me are moms. So they tend to be a little 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.779 bit younger because they they've like had a baby 00:30:43.779 --> 00:30:47.960 and they're just like, holy shit. Like my priorities 00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:50.539 have totally shifted. I'm getting more dads now, 00:30:50.619 --> 00:30:53.099 which is great, too, because like, why isn't 00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:56.779 that shifting for them, too? But I also have, 00:30:56.819 --> 00:30:59.059 I would say that's like my ICP, right? It's like 00:30:59.059 --> 00:31:01.380 people in their late 30s, early 40s that are 00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:03.740 just like, I have a baby and I don't want to 00:31:03.740 --> 00:31:06.200 tell them that I work for Meta, right? Like, 00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:08.799 you know, I don't even know how to explain my 00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:13.000 job. I'm burnt out. There's a lot of like guilt 00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:15.619 about where they're working now and like what 00:31:15.619 --> 00:31:18.259 the impacts of that have become, you know, across 00:31:18.259 --> 00:31:21.640 the planet and society. And they just want to 00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:23.519 like do something that they'll be proud of as 00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.099 well. So that's part of it. And then secondary, 00:31:26.180 --> 00:31:28.460 there are a lot of women that are like post, 00:31:28.660 --> 00:31:31.019 you know, like mid forties and above that are 00:31:31.019 --> 00:31:33.839 getting aged out. Like they're, they're aging 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:36.359 out. And I'm like, you need to flip that on its 00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:38.900 head instead of being like, you know, I had a 00:31:38.900 --> 00:31:41.460 woman who I had worked with in the past and she's 00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:43.359 probably like late forties, early fifties. And 00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:45.240 we had a coffee a couple of weeks ago and she 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:49.240 said, I just can't, like, I can't impress a 27 00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:51.880 year old tech pro founder anymore. And I'm like, 00:31:51.980 --> 00:31:55.849 don't. First of all, don't, don't pander because 00:31:55.849 --> 00:31:59.970 that's worse. And instead become a fractional 00:31:59.970 --> 00:32:01.950 because then they want to pay for experience. 00:32:02.450 --> 00:32:04.930 Right? Like if you come in and you say, I've 00:32:04.930 --> 00:32:09.150 worked for me at Brex, Jasper, Ashby, like all 00:32:09.150 --> 00:32:11.190 of these places. And I know the exact mistakes 00:32:11.190 --> 00:32:13.289 you're going to make in product marketing. And 00:32:13.289 --> 00:32:15.750 I can give it to you at half the price and half 00:32:15.750 --> 00:32:18.150 the time. Totally. I have a rant about this. 00:32:18.190 --> 00:32:19.869 Can I rant about something really quick? Okay. 00:32:19.910 --> 00:32:23.329 So now we have tools like, vibe coding tool so 00:32:23.329 --> 00:32:25.730 like perry's just vibe coded his website i've 00:32:25.730 --> 00:32:30.150 created an app blah blah there are now use cases 00:32:30.150 --> 00:32:32.390 of i was talking to i mentioned this lovable 00:32:32.390 --> 00:32:34.740 event they were talking about a nurse who There 00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:37.319 is a need for that nurse at her hospital. So 00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:39.660 she built this app that was very specific for 00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:42.259 this use case. And if somebody else had hired 00:32:42.259 --> 00:32:43.900 someone to build that app, they would not have 00:32:43.900 --> 00:32:46.259 been able to. They don't have the knowledge, 00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:49.180 right? And that is something that AI cannot replicate. 00:32:49.339 --> 00:32:52.900 The nuance of what your job is, the context, 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:55.559 the history, all of the stuff that you as an 00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:58.799 individual have from all of your experience cannot 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:02.549 be... outsourced to ai or to just like a random 00:33:02.549 --> 00:33:05.369 person that you bring in and i think that is 00:33:05.369 --> 00:33:07.930 going to make the real experts the people who 00:33:07.930 --> 00:33:11.730 are like super deep in things matter again and 00:33:11.730 --> 00:33:14.450 so yeah the 50 year old can't get a job in -house 00:33:14.450 --> 00:33:17.470 but suddenly their experience is the only thing 00:33:17.470 --> 00:33:19.950 that's going to allow whoever to create their 00:33:19.950 --> 00:33:23.670 new you know ai experience or agent who is trying 00:33:23.670 --> 00:33:26.109 to do their job because there's only a handful 00:33:26.109 --> 00:33:27.890 of people who have that many years of experience 00:33:27.890 --> 00:33:32.960 so i'm like hopefully like allows us to put our 00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:37.819 voice back in the well well isn't isn't it so 00:33:37.819 --> 00:33:39.660 i think about what you're saying becca and i 00:33:39.660 --> 00:33:43.420 agree largely but i also wonder if the ability 00:33:43.420 --> 00:33:47.259 to have personas in your prompting almost negates 00:33:47.259 --> 00:33:49.859 the lived real experience you have so for example 00:33:51.589 --> 00:33:53.650 i'm not i'm not saying it does today i'm saying 00:33:53.650 --> 00:33:56.210 but how how long will it be before that is true 00:33:56.210 --> 00:33:58.089 where you can be like you are the world renowned 00:33:58.089 --> 00:34:00.329 blah blah blah you've read every book on this 00:34:00.329 --> 00:34:02.609 topic you have seen the good the bad the ups 00:34:02.609 --> 00:34:06.250 the downs against that backdrop design an app 00:34:06.250 --> 00:34:08.409 that does x y and z like you don't think that 00:34:08.409 --> 00:34:10.809 the ai is going to catch up i think you can get 00:34:10.809 --> 00:34:13.889 80 of the way there i think that like the actual 00:34:14.590 --> 00:34:17.929 the the human who knows the nuance and the ins 00:34:17.929 --> 00:34:20.150 and outs and the thing that always breaks every 00:34:20.150 --> 00:34:22.449 time you try to do that like the ai will never 00:34:22.449 --> 00:34:25.190 be able to do that unless it is like it might 00:34:25.190 --> 00:34:27.329 be able to if the ai starts living with the humans 00:34:27.329 --> 00:34:29.670 for a while and like literally like following 00:34:29.670 --> 00:34:34.710 watching i know ai is good at pattern recognition 00:34:34.710 --> 00:34:37.829 but only certain patterns and that's what i always 00:34:37.829 --> 00:34:40.690 try to lead with as well as like i like i said 00:34:40.690 --> 00:34:43.329 before like i've seen every b2b mark you know 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:50.360 SaaS company hit a cliff with selling to venture 00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:52.039 -backed startups, and now they have to sell to 00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:54.059 mid -market and enterprise. And I know exactly 00:34:54.059 --> 00:34:56.239 what they do every time and what the mistakes 00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:59.480 are. At some point, AI could know that. It's 00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:02.400 probably looking at my blog and now telling people 00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.900 how to fractionalize themselves using Claude 00:35:04.900 --> 00:35:07.900 anyway. But the difference is that pattern recognition 00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:10.860 is nuanced. So I actually asked one of my clients 00:35:10.860 --> 00:35:13.219 recently because I do a lot of interviews with 00:35:13.219 --> 00:35:15.639 customers that just they think of me as like 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:17.639 a third party consultant and they don't know. 00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:21.920 So let's say I'm like working with Ashby. I might 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:25.039 talk to people that have never heard of Ashby. 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:27.659 I might talk to people who decided to turn off 00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:30.099 of Ashby, something like that. Right. Like win 00:35:30.099 --> 00:35:34.519 loss. They will talk to me differently, first 00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:37.300 of all, than they'll talk to. the head of pmm 00:35:37.300 --> 00:35:42.440 at ashby or jasper or brex and also i can tell 00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:45.820 during a face -to -face interaction when someone 00:35:45.820 --> 00:35:48.519 starts to get uncomfortable right or like they 00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:52.239 pause or they're avoiding something like i don't 00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:54.980 think an ai interviewer is there yet let's hope 00:35:54.980 --> 00:35:59.079 yeah yeah they can't so there's a nuance there 00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:02.639 um and if they have a set of interview guides 00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:05.340 sure they can ask the questions but sometimes 00:36:05.900 --> 00:36:07.800 during a podcast, during an interview, things 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:10.639 go sideways in a very good way. Yeah. You can 00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:13.699 double down on something or like go off. Yeah. 00:36:14.019 --> 00:36:17.420 Yeah. I asked my client, like, what is my moat? 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.159 Right. This is my whole talk is the human moat. 00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:22.960 I'm so glad you just said that. I was going to 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:24.559 say that very thing. Go ahead, Becca. I'll let 00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:26.179 you go first. No, that's like my whole, I do 00:36:26.179 --> 00:36:28.039 this whole talk now. It's called the human moat. 00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:29.780 And it's the thing that is going to differentiate 00:36:29.780 --> 00:36:32.699 us in the age of AI is you need to build your 00:36:32.699 --> 00:36:35.650 moat because there are things. as a human, that 00:36:35.650 --> 00:36:38.750 AI cannot replicate. And so you need to double, 00:36:38.829 --> 00:36:41.050 triple, quadruple down on those things because 00:36:41.050 --> 00:36:44.889 knowledge is now infinite, right? Content creation 00:36:44.889 --> 00:36:47.750 is infinite. You have to do the things that the 00:36:47.750 --> 00:36:52.050 machine can't do in those infinity pools. Yeah, 00:36:52.050 --> 00:36:56.190 so I have come at it from a different side, which 00:36:56.190 --> 00:36:58.250 is just that technology is not your moat, right? 00:36:58.349 --> 00:37:00.869 Because there are so many easy ways to do the 00:37:00.869 --> 00:37:03.110 technology. But then when you really stop and 00:37:03.110 --> 00:37:05.130 think about it, we're all saying, shades of the 00:37:05.130 --> 00:37:07.829 same thing, which is, in my view, brand is really 00:37:07.829 --> 00:37:11.769 your moat. Right? If you can build a brand, build 00:37:11.769 --> 00:37:13.989 a movement, a momentum that people want to run 00:37:13.989 --> 00:37:15.909 toward, then the technology doesn't really matter 00:37:15.909 --> 00:37:17.969 so much because people want to feel a part of 00:37:17.969 --> 00:37:21.070 that thing you've built, that halo effect you've 00:37:21.070 --> 00:37:25.130 built on the brand. The technology, it doesn't 00:37:25.130 --> 00:37:27.349 matter. It really doesn't matter anymore. So 00:37:27.349 --> 00:37:28.980 I think we're all saying the same thing. that's 00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:31.820 why early stage founders who are still you know 00:37:31.820 --> 00:37:34.019 doing their pitches it's why they're so effective 00:37:34.019 --> 00:37:36.480 because they've done like basically by default 00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:38.760 a ton of voice of the customer work yeah they've 00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.199 either figured it they either had the pain point 00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:43.960 themselves which is very common or they've like 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:46.860 seen it they like get obsessed with the customer 00:37:46.860 --> 00:37:49.739 they understand so when they pitch it's like 00:37:49.739 --> 00:37:52.679 someone is talking straight to their heart they 00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:56.389 are giving them the painkiller right i mean that's 00:37:56.389 --> 00:37:58.289 why it's hard to move from like the founder -led 00:37:58.289 --> 00:38:00.889 growth to as we say like go -to -market machine 00:38:00.889 --> 00:38:04.670 because that person does know the like ins and 00:38:04.670 --> 00:38:06.309 outs every once and that's their baby and blah 00:38:06.309 --> 00:38:08.070 blah blah and now they have to outsource that 00:38:08.070 --> 00:38:11.210 to somebody else and make it scale right that's 00:38:11.210 --> 00:38:14.510 hard yeah you can't scale you know human things 00:38:14.510 --> 00:38:16.789 you just have to you have to find out what really 00:38:16.789 --> 00:38:19.030 matters to the customers that you always track 00:38:19.030 --> 00:38:21.949 it back to that pain point totally um i want 00:38:21.949 --> 00:38:24.610 to make sure that we have time for our um favorite 00:38:24.610 --> 00:38:28.250 segment of the show which is my questions followed 00:38:28.250 --> 00:38:32.289 by perry's unhinged question can we segue into 00:38:32.289 --> 00:38:37.489 rapid fire questions meg yeah yeah okay i'm ready 00:38:37.489 --> 00:38:41.010 fabulous okay you get to erase one corporate 00:38:41.010 --> 00:38:46.829 buzzword from existence what is it pivot that's 00:38:46.829 --> 00:38:50.789 your whole thing yes because every time i'm at 00:38:50.789 --> 00:38:54.429 like a high growth startup um every three months 00:38:54.429 --> 00:38:56.909 there's a new strategic pivot oh yes right i 00:38:56.909 --> 00:38:58.909 wouldn't want to erase it because it's part of 00:38:58.909 --> 00:39:02.010 my sub stack i mean but if it makes it funnier 00:39:02.010 --> 00:39:04.230 that it's kind of like you're using it to poke 00:39:04.230 --> 00:39:06.550 fun at it yeah you have love hate with that word 00:39:06.550 --> 00:39:12.730 yeah it's sort of like strategery you know yeah 00:39:12.730 --> 00:39:16.869 i like it okay you're about to give a presentation 00:39:16.869 --> 00:39:20.829 a keynote in front of 50 000 people Very excited 00:39:20.829 --> 00:39:24.070 to see you. What song are you walking onto the 00:39:24.070 --> 00:39:29.469 stage to? Um, it would have to be, uh, center 00:39:29.469 --> 00:39:35.889 field. Cause I just love the analogy. Yeah. Put 00:39:35.889 --> 00:39:38.730 me in coach. Yep. Put me in coach. That's kind 00:39:38.730 --> 00:39:43.510 of my motto is like, just put me in. Yeah. Amazing. 00:39:44.750 --> 00:39:48.449 Okay. Bull Durham, which is a great movie. Great 00:39:48.449 --> 00:39:51.929 baseball. Very quick little side story. So my 00:39:51.929 --> 00:39:53.510 brother -in -law, when he was playing little 00:39:53.510 --> 00:39:56.909 league baseball, he begged and begged to get 00:39:56.909 --> 00:39:59.349 a chance pitching and he pitched, but he got 00:39:59.349 --> 00:40:01.289 shelled. They were just hitting him all over 00:40:01.289 --> 00:40:02.929 the place. He literally started crying and said, 00:40:02.969 --> 00:40:08.329 take me out, coach. Take me out, coach. That's 00:40:08.329 --> 00:40:12.010 funny. I call them the soccer team and there 00:40:12.010 --> 00:40:15.730 are those kids. I call them the Daisy kids. Okay. 00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:22.079 You are going to give a TED Talk on anything 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:26.860 but strategic pivotry or product marketing or 00:40:26.860 --> 00:40:28.780 marketing in general. What are you giving your 00:40:28.780 --> 00:40:32.739 TED Talk on? I think I would give it on my experience 00:40:32.739 --> 00:40:35.099 at the Taxi and Limousine Commission in New York 00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:38.380 City and how I was there right before Uber got 00:40:38.380 --> 00:40:41.739 introduced to the world and what that meant for 00:40:41.739 --> 00:40:45.610 a government -sponsored monopoly. It's very complicated, 00:40:45.789 --> 00:40:48.550 but I swear it is a very interesting story. And 00:40:48.550 --> 00:40:51.070 it does involve Michael Cohen, who owns a bunch 00:40:51.070 --> 00:40:54.489 of, you know, taxis and fleets. Medallion things? 00:40:54.769 --> 00:40:58.030 Yeah. So, like, how medallions have historically 00:40:58.030 --> 00:41:00.070 made money for New York City. The medallion thing 00:41:00.070 --> 00:41:02.690 is so fascinating, frankly, for anyone who has 00:41:02.690 --> 00:41:05.489 never dug deep into the New York medallion thing. 00:41:05.570 --> 00:41:08.650 And, like, there's, like, crime around it and, 00:41:08.670 --> 00:41:14.510 like, mafia stuff. Yeah. So cool. Yeah. All right. 00:41:15.010 --> 00:41:17.570 I mean, I would like to go to this talk. So you 00:41:17.570 --> 00:41:19.170 let me know when you're ready to present because 00:41:19.170 --> 00:41:24.309 I'm here. Okay. My last question before handing 00:41:24.309 --> 00:41:27.710 it over to the crazy one, you get to use one 00:41:27.710 --> 00:41:31.070 emoji, only one for the rest of your life. Which 00:41:31.070 --> 00:41:34.630 one? Oh, I really like the person throwing up 00:41:34.630 --> 00:41:35.969 money or I don't know if they're throwing up, 00:41:35.969 --> 00:41:38.389 but they're like, Oh, you're the first one who's 00:41:38.389 --> 00:41:42.429 ever used that. I think I like it. It says so 00:41:42.429 --> 00:41:46.349 much about our society. You are 100 % the first 00:41:46.349 --> 00:41:47.750 person that has ever said that. And I don't think 00:41:47.750 --> 00:41:50.989 I've ever used that emoji ever, actually. I've 00:41:50.989 --> 00:41:52.230 seen it. I don't think I've ever used it. I think 00:41:52.230 --> 00:41:54.570 I've only ever used it for like, guess what? 00:41:54.630 --> 00:41:59.550 I got a sponsorship. Money face. Yeah. What's 00:41:59.550 --> 00:42:03.289 up? I think you're more of like a melting shrub, 00:42:03.309 --> 00:42:07.690 like capitalism. Yeah. I love it. Okay, Perry, 00:42:07.849 --> 00:42:10.849 please. All right. So some of the questions that 00:42:10.849 --> 00:42:13.610 I ask at this point are actually ridiculously 00:42:13.610 --> 00:42:16.090 unhinged. But the last couple, I've asked the 00:42:16.090 --> 00:42:17.269 same question. I'm going to stick with it one 00:42:17.269 --> 00:42:19.929 more time, which is not that unhinged. It's actually 00:42:19.929 --> 00:42:22.469 kind of a, I think it's a fascinating study in 00:42:22.469 --> 00:42:25.860 the human condition, which is. You get to author 00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:28.500 whatever you consider to be your masterpiece, 00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:31.619 a book. Okay. Maybe it's the great American novel. 00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:34.519 Maybe it's the definitive, you know, standard 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:38.440 on fractional, you know, whatever. And it gets 00:42:38.440 --> 00:42:41.519 reviewed really exceptionally well. Best reviews 00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:44.099 you can imagine, but it doesn't sell. Like reviews 00:42:44.099 --> 00:42:47.099 are out of control. People are like coming to 00:42:47.099 --> 00:42:48.960 your readings, but no one's buying the book for 00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:51.280 some reason. Okay. That's one option. The other 00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:53.659 option is no one gives a shit about the book. 00:42:54.349 --> 00:42:57.510 um but it sells like crazy and you wrote it under 00:42:57.510 --> 00:43:01.010 a non -diplom so you make wild amounts of cash 00:43:01.010 --> 00:43:03.949 it has no acclaim whatsoever but you're rich 00:43:03.949 --> 00:43:07.050 as shit uh do you take the critically acclaimed 00:43:07.050 --> 00:43:10.050 masterpiece accolades or do you say fuck all 00:43:10.050 --> 00:43:12.090 y 'all i'm taking the cash what do you think 00:43:12.090 --> 00:43:14.909 so based on the emoji i just told you about i 00:43:14.909 --> 00:43:17.110 think you're taking the cash yes i'm taking cash 00:43:17.110 --> 00:43:19.269 see here's the thing is that i would like to 00:43:19.269 --> 00:43:21.429 write a book but don't want to do any of the 00:43:21.429 --> 00:43:26.409 like pr or I mean, I just want to live my life 00:43:26.409 --> 00:43:28.309 and then I just want to like donate a bunch of 00:43:28.309 --> 00:43:32.269 that money to, you know, anti -fascism. There 00:43:32.269 --> 00:43:35.050 you go. Hey, we can get on board with that message. 00:43:35.090 --> 00:43:37.349 I hear that's a terrorist group now, however. 00:43:37.610 --> 00:43:42.929 Yes, yes, yes. We've got a domestic terrorist 00:43:42.929 --> 00:43:46.030 on the show, ladies and gentlemen. Sorry, I'm 00:43:46.030 --> 00:43:49.090 not myself. I've got to add the snark. Yeah, 00:43:49.130 --> 00:43:52.570 my friends often say I'm like a menace, so close. 00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:56.139 All right. Take the money and run. I like it. 00:43:56.559 --> 00:43:58.480 Becca, did you even answer the question? Did 00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:01.380 you ever answer that one? I'm not sure if I did, 00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:04.159 but I would for sure take the money. Like no 00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:07.480 question. That would not be hard for me. Yeah. 00:44:07.579 --> 00:44:09.039 I would take the, I would take the cash too. 00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:12.000 Now, having said that I was a reporter. So writing 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:13.599 is important to me. Like I've always really, 00:44:13.659 --> 00:44:15.300 really cared about that. And when I was younger, 00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:17.139 I had this sort of idealistic, like one day I'll 00:44:17.139 --> 00:44:18.639 write the great American novel and blah, blah, 00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:20.460 blah, blah. But yeah, I'm taking the money, man. 00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:23.639 But you know what? Like I've come. As an adult 00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:27.380 who, as an ADHD person who spent the better part 00:44:27.380 --> 00:44:29.360 of my life thinking I was an idiot and feeling 00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:32.179 really bad about myself, like I've come to realize 00:44:32.179 --> 00:44:35.079 that being proud of myself and my own successes 00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:39.059 gives me way more like, I guess, pride than, 00:44:39.139 --> 00:44:42.219 you know, my colleagues seeing it. And I do think 00:44:42.219 --> 00:44:44.639 that like, knowing that you've done this, that 00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:46.500 you've written the great American novel and, 00:44:46.519 --> 00:44:48.559 you know, getting to be rich, even if nobody 00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:50.699 else knows, you still have the pride yourself. 00:44:52.210 --> 00:44:56.110 yeah i think about that a lot with even being 00:44:56.110 --> 00:44:57.969 fractional like a lot of times i don't put the 00:44:57.969 --> 00:45:00.769 logos who i'm working with i don't care yeah 00:45:00.769 --> 00:45:02.829 because i'm just taking the money and don't and 00:45:02.829 --> 00:45:04.510 putting that directly into and you know you're 00:45:04.510 --> 00:45:06.190 doing good work it's not like you're feeling 00:45:06.190 --> 00:45:08.449 bad about like i'm not contributing here yeah 00:45:08.449 --> 00:45:11.070 yeah i mean they're really appreciative of my 00:45:11.070 --> 00:45:13.170 work which is very different than i think being 00:45:13.170 --> 00:45:16.849 a rank and file employee totally okay i'm gonna 00:45:16.849 --> 00:45:21.380 give you your minute to say anything you want 00:45:21.380 --> 00:45:23.920 or direct our audience to where they can find 00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:26.500 you. What would you like to leave us with Meg? 00:45:27.900 --> 00:45:31.940 I think the sub stack is best just because for 00:45:31.940 --> 00:45:34.320 me, that's where I really just kind of like pop 00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:38.980 off. A lot of the reason I write is for people 00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:42.139 that feel that they can't get out of that container 00:45:42.139 --> 00:45:45.320 and they can't get out of the corporate domestication. 00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:49.119 And I don't do the like, I'm, you know, typing 00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:51.519 from a laptop at the pool. Like, the whole point 00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:54.099 is, like, be practical about this the same way 00:45:54.099 --> 00:45:55.260 that you have to be practical about anything. 00:45:55.900 --> 00:45:57.920 And the other thing I would say is just that 00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:00.860 being fractional or full -time is not binary. 00:46:00.980 --> 00:46:03.500 Like, you might be fractional sometimes. You 00:46:03.500 --> 00:46:06.480 might be full -time sometimes. Like, ask. You 00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.119 see a full -time position, you don't really want 00:46:08.119 --> 00:46:10.579 to work full -time, ask if they're open to fractional, 00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.780 right? Like, there's just so much more gray than 00:46:13.780 --> 00:46:16.699 corporate America wants us to think, and I like 00:46:16.699 --> 00:46:19.260 to be in that. spot like i like my mom always 00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:21.440 says if you don't ask you don't get totally right 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:23.559 the worst thing that can happen is someone can 00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:27.460 say no yeah that's it yeah he will gets the grease 00:46:27.460 --> 00:46:31.260 and so forth yeah well just so that our audience 00:46:31.260 --> 00:46:34.579 knows your sub stack is called strategic pivetry 00:46:34.579 --> 00:46:39.139 so go find the sub stack and um subscribe there 00:46:39.139 --> 00:46:44.059 for more from meg um i have really enjoyed this 00:46:44.059 --> 00:46:46.599 conversation today so thank you for joining us 00:46:47.289 --> 00:46:50.210 I like the fire you brought, Meg. I like it. 00:46:50.329 --> 00:46:54.570 Me too. I know. It's the Red Sox fan in me, really. 00:46:55.389 --> 00:46:57.429 Oh, you're the Red Sox fan too? Look at you. 00:46:58.510 --> 00:46:59.949 All right. Thanks, guys.