You hire adults, smart people that you interview.
You choose the people that you're hiring. Don't
treat them like children once they're here. You
know, you're not running a daycare. I don't care
about your bathroom breaks. I don't give a shit
when you work, where you work, how you work.
Just do the damn work. And if you do, everybody's
good. People in their late 30s, early 40s that
are just like, I have a baby and I don't want
to tell them that I work for Meta. There's a
lot of like guilt about where they're working
now and like... what the impacts of that have
become, you know, across the planet and society.
And they just want to, like, do something that
they'll be proud of as well. I'm at a certain
age. I'm having a hard time getting jobs anymore.
It's like, ah, I'm going to start my own thing.
What should I think about? I'd be like, well,
for me, there's one thing is, can you fucking
sell? Because if you do, you're dead in the water.
Welcome to Under Embargo, the podcast that says
the quiet part out loud about PR, communications,
and the chaos in between. Hosted by two of LinkedIn's
most connected comms pros, Becca Chambers, a
no -BS corporate comms exec with raging ADHD,
and Pari Hedrick, founder of tech PR firm Crackle
PR. This show brings it all. Real talk, sharp
insights, and the kind of industry truths they
don't put in press releases. No fluff, no filters,
no f***s given. This is Under Embargo. Let's
get into it. Welcome to today's episode of Under
Embargo. I am Becca Chambers, CMO at Scale Venture
Partners, joined as always by my, I don't know,
I was going to think of a fun adjective, but
I'm just going to go with handsome, handsome
as ever, sidekick, co -host, founder of Crackle
PR, Perry Hedrick. hello today we are joined
by a product marketer which is interesting because
it is outside of our usual comms bubble but she
has a passion for disrupting the status quo and
she's worked at companies like brex ashby jasper
so you know she's legit but now she has a consultancy
that helps other people build their own fractional
businesses and to quote her Disrupt the Status
Bro, which I love. And she also started the Strategic
Pivotry Substack, which is a total mouthful,
but it helps burnt out tech workers build high
earning consultancy practices. So I am excited
to get into the pivotry with today's guest, Meg
Shedding. Welcome to the show. Thank you very
much. I'm excited to be in the presence of a
Southern Hampshire celebrity like Paris. Yes,
I'm epic in southern New Hampshire. Big, big
there. Known across the land and through the
trees. You got to move places like that so you
don't get recognized and harassed every day.
Right, Perry? That is correct. Although on the
last show, Becca, I think I mentioned that I
have been spotted in public a couple of times.
People are like. that's Barry from LinkedIn.
And my wife's like, shut the hell up. What? You
couldn't believe it. Like what? Somebody recognize
your fool ass? But occasionally I do actually
get recognized. So talk us through what you do.
What is a fractional anything? Like I know what
it is. Becca knows what it is, but our audience
may not know. Yeah. I know you guys talked to
Roberto about being a fractional CMO. I feel
like that's harder. I feel like I have a pretty
good lane in terms of like what, you know, clients
often need from me so the way i like to do it
is kind of embed at least you know three to six
months at like 20 to 25 hours so that's what
i think of as like fractional um just in terms
of like time commitment and i like to have like
one client at a time i know some people juggle
multiple clients i'm already not good at context
switching so that is that is not for me um but
essentially i usually work with early to like
high growth stage companies that have kind of
hit um a ceiling in terms of them being able
to like founder -led sales you know sell to the
y accommodator bro network and then they actually
have to sell into the wild and they actually
need to like put all of that juice into marketing
and sales material so that they can you know
give it to other sales people to other marketers
and actually kind of like do a whole foundational
um reframe of like what's working in their messaging
and positioning and what's not And a lot of times
what I do with Ashby in particular, I've been
with them in almost every series stage of their
funding. And a lot of it is like, hey, we keep
going up market. We don't understand those customers
as much. Can you go talk to 15 of them? Do they
even know who we are? What do they care about?
What does their buyer journey look like as opposed
to founder -led sales? And that's kind of like
the ecosystem I like to play in. I do a lot of
like market validation, voice of the customer
work, but it's also just tailored. my question
is what you just described 80 of comms people
are like i do that too right how is comms and
product marketing different how are they the
same how do you work with the comms people in
these early stage companies are there comms people
like tell me about all of that yeah yeah that
is it really is something that's probably lacking
in most early stage companies i don't know you
know when when you guys are consulting with certain
companies but they they might have an external
pr agency right like very specific i've listened
to your pod there's a lot of great like we're
gonna get in like you know we're gonna get in
this really great publication and with our little
tiny startup so there's a lot of expectations
there but pulling back if i think of who i'm
usually hired by is ahead of marketing they're
doing like everything um They have maybe like
a junior growth hacker, you know, who's starting
to test LinkedIn and outbound. Maybe they have
like a demand gen kind of process set up, but
no one has ever really actually looked at the
brand at a high level. I usually work with them.
And my, what I like to say is like, you need
a brand or comms person in here as soon as possible.
Cause to me. The company strategy is the brand,
is the company story, right? Thank you for saying
that, product marketer, because I feel like product
marketers don't always get that. Carry on. I
was going to say, I'm a very different product
marketer than if I was at Intuit and I was in
charge of literally one button as a product marketer,
right? And even by the time I left Brex, we had...
15 pmms right so you start to get narrow and
narrow you literally don't even care about the
brand because your brand is yeah the button or
like the experience on the credit card we're
selling and like for me it was expense management
software i got lucky because i got to do like
a category shift for them like they had only
been in credit cards they were doing sass software
which was very different and there was definitely
a learning curve of like paying some young people
in utah to like get people to sign up for credit
cards with rewards to like selling software yeah
it's very different too but yeah a lot of times
in early stage they kind of like are outsourcing
pr they don't really they they don't really they're
not connecting all the dots yeah between like
for me i always think of myself as a go -to marketer
when i'm at an early stage because part of it
is also like are these products that different
do we really need to talk internal baseball and
like call them something different or can we
just say like here's a solution yeah do people
when you latch on to a company in that capacity
do you feel that it it's important to get the
vibe that they're viewing you as a partner or
or does it really matter if it's transactional
or not like do you need to be like on the team
or are you comfortable being kind of a vendor
doing the job i can go either way personally
i talk about this in my sub stack that i am like
110 percent person. So for me, consulting is
important just because I'm looking at my hours
and I'm looking at it as somewhat of a transaction.
It just helps me like rein myself in because
I can go in there and be like, whoa, whoa, there's
a lot to work on here. But I'm like, this is
my scope. This is what I'm helping with. Right.
And this is what I'm getting paid for, frankly.
Yeah, exactly. And every time I sort of overstep
those bounds, I have to think of it as like I'm
taking money out of my own pocket. Yeah, that's
smart. It just helps me rein myself in. because
i am one of those people can i follow up speaking
of the money piece i actually wonder do you do
like a like a flat fee type thing or do you ever
do equity or like how do you structure it is
it kind of every every company's a snowflake
a little bit sadly which is a crappy answer but
i will say um for the most part i tend to do
like a monthly retainer that's tied to like you
know percentage of my time or like 20 to 30 hours
a week and that's going to be on average And
then you can tie that back into an hourly rate.
But to me, it's all about like, I have come up
with, here are the outcomes. Here's what you're
getting. And then like the hourly rate is not
important to them because - You say, I'm going
to do these, I'm going to drive these outcomes
for this amount of money. And then it doesn't
matter how much you work. Like you could work
one hour a week if you drove set out. Who gives
a shit? Yeah. I try to tell, when I coach people,
I try to tell them that. Yeah. We're sharing
a template. that spent you spent like three years
iterating on amazing companies that is not worth
a click of a button and third or 30 minutes yeah
you know bill based on value and like people
don't question it What is the Abraham Lincoln
quote? It's something like, give me eight hours
to chop down a tree and I'll spend seven hours
sharpening my axe. I think this is actually kind
of a paradigm shift. It shouldn't be a paradigm
shift because everyone should have been thinking
about outcomes when they're doing their jobs
anyways. It should have been the way everyone
approached work, but there weren't. Managers
just wanted to see your butt in seat. They just
wanted to see that you were at your computer.
They do give a shit about the outcomes, but that's
not what they're looking at. I feel like now,
empower everyone just be like here's what you
have to do here are the outcomes you have to
drive good however you want to get there do it
and then everyone will value based pricing value
based pricing like you want to do it in a tree
house you want to do it on a beach if that makes
you happy and makes you less cranky when you
have to be on a meeting totally let them do it
yeah i know and it's like if if they start shitting
the bed then you have a problem but until then
like Let adults be adults. This is like I used
to get on this soapbox and be like, you hire
adults, smart people that you interview. You
choose the people that you're hiring. Don't treat
them like children once they're here. You know,
you're not running a daycare. I write about that
same thing all the time. I'm like, look, I don't
care about your bathroom breaks. I don't give
a shit when you work, where you work, how you
work. Just do the damn work. And if you do, everybody's
good. yeah yeah i'm i'm i really got over the
like performative meetings having to be on like
a zoom happy hour no i think that is something
i think about this a lot because i have a lot
of friends who have gone like into the fractional
or even just into like pure consulting where
they have like one client for six months and
then they move on or whatever but they all have
this freedom of like, I don't have to waste my
time on just stupid ass calls all day. I mean,
they go to the meetings that they need to be
able to do their job, but it's not just all this
extra stuff that is performative things that
you have to do when you work in a larger organization.
And sometimes when I have 13 meetings back to
back, I am so jealous of my friends in that situation.
They can also turn down the meetings that aren't
relevant to them because it's like, nope. I do
that. Yeah. That's like, do you really want me
in this meeting? And that kind of reminds them
that like of my hourly rate. Yeah, exactly. I
also like the way that I pitch myself and I try
to help people pitch themselves is like people
believe you're going to be, you're being fair
on your pricing if you also tell them you're
trying to work yourself out of a job. So I will
say I'm going to be here for three to six months.
What you need is like foundational messaging.
that actually lands. So instead of just like
doing a hundred tests on a headline, like let's
do it systematically, then that's like the fuel
for your sales and marketing engine. And I will
sometimes say like, you can pay me that hourly
rate to make a sales deck, but I can also help
you hire a junior PMM or get you a designer.
Right. And it's like, they immediately know that
they're only paying for like, what is the most
valuable thing? Just like, you know, consultants
get a bad rap. It's like, it's just all about
billing or like hourly. I mean, that's why I
think that the more people that go to the outcomes
-based billing, I mean, AI has to do it now too,
right? It's going to be more productive for everybody.
And then you don't have that anxiety of, are
they just wasting their time? I don't even know
what they're working on. They haven't driven
any outcomes, but they've billed me for 40 hours.
Yeah, what are they doing? And you do have to
be more proactive in the sense that you might
not be top of mind. You might not be in every
team meeting. So just be proactive when you're,
you know, giving status updates. I feel like
this is a good segue to something else that you
do. I mean, you have said in your bio that you
help employees break out of their indentured
servitude and, you know, very dramatic language,
which I appreciate. I love well -articulated.
Drop your shackles. You've got your messaging
down. But, like, talk about that. Like, what
does that mean? What is the indentured servitude
kind of, you know? line mean for you and for
your clients yeah another way that i put it that
i've been working on in terms of testing messaging
is like corporate corporate domestication oh
yeah when you're in when you're working for a
company all the scaffolding is there for you
not just like the kombucha or like the dong insurance
or whatever but like you don't have to do your
own business development you don't have to build
You don't have to like try to find your own health
care. You don't have to do your own taxes in
the sense that like the tax is already taken
out for you. So there's all this like kind of
admin stuff. And also there's the side of the
corporation has given you a really easy like
cloak of identity and worth. You become, you
know, fractional or into you're working for yourself.
There's. pros and cons to that like i have talked
to people who have like gone through a riff or
big you know big layoff at google or meta and
they come to me and they're like the man you
know like i want to be fractional like i want
to like and then i tell them well you have to
get your own clients you have you have to be
okay selling yourself that's it's like there's
a huge sales component to running your own business
that most people have not ever done before yep
Right. So there's that. There's like, do you
have health care? What are you doing about that?
I will say, like, I'm married to a public school
teacher. We have amazing health care. That is
not like if we lived, you know, in Europe, this
would be different. Everybody could be. But I'll
talk to someone like that and I'll realize they
have Stockholm syndrome. They'll come back to
me in three months. They're like, yeah, I kind
of want you to coach me. They come back in three
months. They're like, yeah, I took a job at,
you know. netflix like they can't get out of
it they can't do it like it's they're too far
gone into like that domesticated lifestyle i
would argue that i am that that like i know my
brain knows that in theory i would succeed as
an entrepreneur and i would probably love doing
it and i would love being my own boss and whatever
and i cannot rip the band -aid to do that because
i have this like frame in my brain of what i
have to do in order for my life to continue like
at the pace and whatever that it is like it is
like i don't know just the idea of it's not even
that it's scary it's that like it's like i shouldn't
do it right like i should be i should love the
you know corporate world thing that we've always
grown up in and it's fascinating you saying that
it's literally living on the edge when you go
out on your own and obviously i've done that
i've been doing that for five years now but when
people are starting like tech pr agencies they're
like you know what i'm at a certain age i'm having
a hard time getting jobs anymore it's like ah
i'm gonna start my own thing what what should
i think about i'm like well for me there's one
thing is can you sell because if you you're dead
in the water. So like ask yourself, look in the
mirror and say, can I go out there and sell my
ass off to close business? And if I cannot get
a job in house somewhere, because you're not
going to make it. I like to think of myself as
feral. Like, you know, the whole like sales,
you know, metaphors of like what you have to,
you have to eat what you kill. You know, you're
a hunter. I like social engineering and gamifying
social connections on LinkedIn. So I'm really
good at that part. And I don't mind selling myself
because I know like all that money is coming
into my pocket. And it's like I made a job out
of nothing. I can like message a head of marketing
in a certain growth stage and like ping them
and be like, hey, do you have any PMM? I mean,
you're on the podcast because you sent me a DM,
right? Isn't that how we got? You were like,
hi, I have this perspective to offer and I like
your podcast and maybe you would like me on your
show. And I was like, yeah, sure. Because I'm
New Hampshire famous now. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean,
I'm okay with that. So many people I talk to
who are thinking about being fractional or especially
women. Yeah. So uncomfortable with that. It is
really a hurdle for them. But you know what's
interesting? It's not even just selling themselves.
It is literally sharing. I did this thing that
was good. Women have a hard time just saying
that, which isn't even trying to sell yourself.
It's literally just stating what you do well,
you know? And I was just talking about this with
somebody the other day because, oh, I was at
this event, lovable event that was very great.
And one of the... head of comms at lovable was
complimenting the woman who put on the event
and she was like no it wasn't me and whatever
and i was like take credit this is incredible
you should be proud of what you did don't downplay
it you're a marketer market your success right
and i it drives me nuts because i just want children
have no shoes well i always say like you know
why are you you can be a hype person for a product
you know you have to put the obligatory post
on like dan at a job that's like We're thrilled
to announce this feature release, which you don't
really care about and has like deadened your
soul, but you can't talk about yourself and like
your own worth. It's a whole thing. It's a whole
thing. I've actually been working on creating
like a small collective where I actually take
off some of the business development for them
because I get embedded into these startups. I
talked to a lot of VCs. I am kind of creating
this almost like roster that then I can share
out to those people who are like, i need a list
of fractionals or like i need a growth person
i can like give them someone and then of course
i still have to make money so i'm looking at
like referral fee system or like you're in the
collective i help really put together so that
you have like a polished deck and story and then
can help you like farm that out because there's
so many like i didn't think i didn't get into
this thinking like that's what people would need
right but that is what a lot of people need is
like that that container. I have a question.
Oh, go ahead. Sorry, just quickly. What do you
think the biggest draw is on the company side
for bringing in a fractional person? Is it that
they can kind of try before they buy or don't
have to commit long term or don't have the resources
necessarily? Or like, how would you characterize
the reason why the company looks for the fractional
marketer or brand person or what have you? Yeah,
I'd say most of the time it's not try before
buy because Well, I think in my case, I usually
get a lot of like warm referrals. So when I started
talking to a client, someone may have already
kind of sold me through and they asked the opposite.
They're like, gee, why don't you want to be full
time? They're like, why don't you want to join
my party? You know, this is a rocket ship. I'm
like, I've been in a lot of rocket ships. And
we're just getting started. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm
like, I don't need to be on the ground floor.
I don't, I'll take the money, not the equity.
um so there's that you know but that's like very
you know this is a warm lead if i'm really talking
to someone fresh my pitch is like again it's
sort of a bridge like you don't need a full -time
pmm yet but really strategic still hands -on
very tactical messaging to work with these kind
of disparate marketing functions that so i would
say that is a lot of it although some of them
are like very risk averse and it's actually even
more simple in the fact that like often where
how i'm getting paid is from a totally different
bucket in a cox right so this is something that
they can kind of like put in another budget maybe
they like take it from somewhere else it doesn't
have to be salary there's no benefits so a lot
of it is that too is just like they can kind
of think of this as a marketing experiment and
i try to encourage them to do that well and when
you think about the fact that i think the average
tenure of the marketer today is 18 months right
like i mean that's just crazy like i think in
our world tech anyway it's like 18 months um
and usually if you were to let go of a marketer
that you hired there's an intractable goodbye
process and severance and all the yeah and and
packages and stuff and i guess To an extent,
it's a risk mitigation thing that also makes
it less painful at that tail end of it, right?
Yeah. I mean, part of it, I think of it as like
when you're going fractional, you're sort of
de -risking your career because you can start
to become like more of a portfolioist and have
different things. And then for them, like the
startup founder or the CMO is they can say like,
I don't know if I really believe in this function.
This happens a lot with like tech heavy or like
engineering based founders. who needs marketing
the product sells itself no one can do what we
can do yeah this is an all -in -one this is an
operating system the whole platform everybody
needs it yep um and so for those people i'm really
like very straightforward right about like here's
again outcomes deliverables but i do think there's
something that um They can kind of de -risk on
their end. They can put it in a different bucket
of like funds. And then also a lot of times I
hear like my board has told me I need product
marketing, but I don't even know what it is.
Right. You probably get that too on comms. Like
we know we need comms. We don't know what it
is. You know, I tend to walk away from those
engagements, honestly, if possible, diplomatically,
because life's too short to work for somebody
that doesn't understand. Or people who think
that they understand it and want to dictate how
it works, which is also an issue. I've come up
a lot with like engineer founders or product
-focused founders because they do feel like,
well, this is my baby. I'm going to dictate how
it is. So then you're literally just a taskmaster.
And it's like, what's taskmaster? What's the
point? Like, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, I work
with founders that are still, even at like a
500 % company, are still editing a blog post.
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. You know, I have a question.
So that's like treating people as adults. Yeah.
And also don't, I mean, if that's what you want
to do, then hire junior people to do the business.
Don't hire for two reasons. One, you're wasting
money and two, you're going to drive your smart
person insane because you've hired them for their
brain. And instead you're using them for like
clicking buttons. You know, I have a question
because you are only one person and this is something
I come up against is like, i have more things
i want to do than i have time to do so do you
in your fractional role have to bring in other
people to outsource some things to are you like
growing almost like in an agency fashion how
does that work yeah i've thought about going
agency i just haven't wanted to yet like i'm
really happy being an independent yeah at the
moment but that's kind of what i'm thinking about
with this collective like so instead of having
an agency where i'm subcontracting out I'm starting
basically collecting really smart people who
can plug in and in the gaps that all has come
up, you know, in each kind of startup and then,
you know, sell them through. And then of course
they give me a referral or, you know, a cut of,
of their take. But to me, that's a better model,
at least for me right now, because I don't want
to be a full -time business owner of other people.
Cause I'm still trying to figure out like the
constellation of my own products. Yeah. writing
my sub stack coaching you know individual coaching
for people that are you know that that want to
fractionalize themselves and then like being
embedded in a startup yep for me i haven't wanted
to go the agency route yet but i do a lot of
referrals and it happens every time i go into
a company they realize oh here's just like a
generally smart helpful person and they'll say
what you know what go -to -market tech stack
should we use i'm like here we go or like we
need a demand gen person i'm like hire this person
you just become kind of like a helpful person.
And that also, again, kind of goes back to like
justifying the hourly rate or the return. Totally.
Adding value everywhere. How is your sub stack
done? Like how, how new is it? I want to hear
about what's the cadence with it. And like, have
you found that it is open doors or conversations
just like talk through that? Yeah. Yeah. I started
it in 2024. I was like, you know, a little bit
earlier on the Substack bandwagon. I feel like
2025 is when, like, everybody got a Substack.
I'm, like, very proud that it was, like, a little
bit earlier to market. And, you know, I had,
in my early career, I wrote a blog on Zanga .com,
if you remember that. It was, like, one of those.
On what Zanga? Zanga, like, LiveJournal, those
kind of, like, tumblers. I used to write, but
I, at the time, was working for the mayor of
New York, Mike Bloomberg. And I was working for
his chief of staff and he was like, you got to
shut down that blog. I wasn't talking about anything
to do with like New York city government, but
I, it was, it was during that time when like
you, if you're going to represent a company or
an organization, you can't say anything personal,
right? Like so different from today when your
personal Brown is brand can even help the company.
But at the time it was so different. So I kind
of just got like shut down. and just like i don't
know if i you know i i still wrote a lot to my
friends and you know you know in journals but
i was like i really feel like especially now
that i am fractional i've been fractional at
that point for like five years i was like i just
want to share because so many people were coming
to me and asking me those things like how do
you approach this how do you think about going
to market with yourself that i said i want to
like just put this out here um and also uh definitely
make fun of tech bros Poke the bear. I mean,
they pay my bills, so it's a slippery slope.
But, you know, most of the bros I work with are
like, you know, on the better side of good. So,
yeah, that kind of opened doors in the sense
that people started commenting, people I didn't
know. There was that wave of like, it's my friends
and family. And then there's maybe one connection
removed and then just like random people who
find it that are, you know, DMing me and are
really excited about the content. But the one
thing I have not wanted to do is make it like
a paid model, just because for me, when you get
into subscribers and paying subscribers, then
you have to have a cadence. Then you have to
start asking like what content is working, what
content isn't working. It's also guaranteed value.
You're not trying to, you are offering free value
to people and they can take it or not, but it's
not like the expectation is you have to deliver
all the time. Yeah. And I also like sometimes
like my latest one was about, going into career
day and my second graders of my son's second
grade class and like talking about what a career
really is. And some people like if, if I had
a paid subscriber base that only wants to hear
about how to fractionalize themselves, then they
would be unsubscribed. Right. And like, from
what I've seen and the feedback I'm getting is
like people like my voice and my take. the the
container is the same they're okay with it being
different verticals like i mean you have other
products right you're not like it's not like
your sub stack is the thing that's gonna like
buy your house and send your kids to college
i actually think right now like the more the
less gating people do for the stuff that is this
is me this is what i know this is how i am like
all the stuff that makes you a human like that's
that should be free you should be offering that
to everybody and then all of those specific values
that you add are the things that you charge for
but i think that the sub stack and what you're
talking about is what is going to make what is
going to be the differentiator in like a ai age
when everyone has content and blah blah blah
it's like the content that is like uniquely you
is going to for sure make you special yeah i
have a i have a question that is um I kind of
have my own take on this, but I'm curious to
know what your take is. So people that come into
my DMs a lot that are between jobs, got laid
off or whatever, they tend to be in their like
late 40s, early 50s. Disproportionately men,
actually, but some women, too. But it seems like
that age group in particular is the group that
is. trying to figure out what the hell comes
next. And my question, I guess, to you is, are
you finding that same sort of age pocket is your
sweet spot in terms of those who are going to
try to do fractional stuff? And do you think
there's a correlation or do you think that it's
coincidence or what do you think? First, I'm
going to lay down a real hot take, which is like,
I'm not a fan of Gen X. No, I just mean a lot
of the, you know, the billionaires fucking things
up all have to happen to be Gen X men. But so
my the yes and no, the population that often
comes to me are moms. So they tend to be a little
bit younger because they they've like had a baby
and they're just like, holy shit. Like my priorities
have totally shifted. I'm getting more dads now,
which is great, too, because like, why isn't
that shifting for them, too? But I also have,
I would say that's like my ICP, right? It's like
people in their late 30s, early 40s that are
just like, I have a baby and I don't want to
tell them that I work for Meta, right? Like,
you know, I don't even know how to explain my
job. I'm burnt out. There's a lot of like guilt
about where they're working now and like what
the impacts of that have become, you know, across
the planet and society. And they just want to
like do something that they'll be proud of as
well. So that's part of it. And then secondary,
there are a lot of women that are like post,
you know, like mid forties and above that are
getting aged out. Like they're, they're aging
out. And I'm like, you need to flip that on its
head instead of being like, you know, I had a
woman who I had worked with in the past and she's
probably like late forties, early fifties. And
we had a coffee a couple of weeks ago and she
said, I just can't, like, I can't impress a 27
year old tech pro founder anymore. And I'm like,
don't. First of all, don't, don't pander because
that's worse. And instead become a fractional
because then they want to pay for experience.
Right? Like if you come in and you say, I've
worked for me at Brex, Jasper, Ashby, like all
of these places. And I know the exact mistakes
you're going to make in product marketing. And
I can give it to you at half the price and half
the time. Totally. I have a rant about this.
Can I rant about something really quick? Okay.
So now we have tools like, vibe coding tool so
like perry's just vibe coded his website i've
created an app blah blah there are now use cases
of i was talking to i mentioned this lovable
event they were talking about a nurse who There
is a need for that nurse at her hospital. So
she built this app that was very specific for
this use case. And if somebody else had hired
someone to build that app, they would not have
been able to. They don't have the knowledge,
right? And that is something that AI cannot replicate.
The nuance of what your job is, the context,
the history, all of the stuff that you as an
individual have from all of your experience cannot
be... outsourced to ai or to just like a random
person that you bring in and i think that is
going to make the real experts the people who
are like super deep in things matter again and
so yeah the 50 year old can't get a job in -house
but suddenly their experience is the only thing
that's going to allow whoever to create their
new you know ai experience or agent who is trying
to do their job because there's only a handful
of people who have that many years of experience
so i'm like hopefully like allows us to put our
voice back in the well well isn't isn't it so
i think about what you're saying becca and i
agree largely but i also wonder if the ability
to have personas in your prompting almost negates
the lived real experience you have so for example
i'm not i'm not saying it does today i'm saying
but how how long will it be before that is true
where you can be like you are the world renowned
blah blah blah you've read every book on this
topic you have seen the good the bad the ups
the downs against that backdrop design an app
that does x y and z like you don't think that
the ai is going to catch up i think you can get
80 of the way there i think that like the actual
the the human who knows the nuance and the ins
and outs and the thing that always breaks every
time you try to do that like the ai will never
be able to do that unless it is like it might
be able to if the ai starts living with the humans
for a while and like literally like following
watching i know ai is good at pattern recognition
but only certain patterns and that's what i always
try to lead with as well as like i like i said
before like i've seen every b2b mark you know
SaaS company hit a cliff with selling to venture
-backed startups, and now they have to sell to
mid -market and enterprise. And I know exactly
what they do every time and what the mistakes
are. At some point, AI could know that. It's
probably looking at my blog and now telling people
how to fractionalize themselves using Claude
anyway. But the difference is that pattern recognition
is nuanced. So I actually asked one of my clients
recently because I do a lot of interviews with
customers that just they think of me as like
a third party consultant and they don't know.
So let's say I'm like working with Ashby. I might
talk to people that have never heard of Ashby.
I might talk to people who decided to turn off
of Ashby, something like that. Right. Like win
loss. They will talk to me differently, first
of all, than they'll talk to. the head of pmm
at ashby or jasper or brex and also i can tell
during a face -to -face interaction when someone
starts to get uncomfortable right or like they
pause or they're avoiding something like i don't
think an ai interviewer is there yet let's hope
yeah yeah they can't so there's a nuance there
um and if they have a set of interview guides
sure they can ask the questions but sometimes
during a podcast, during an interview, things
go sideways in a very good way. Yeah. You can
double down on something or like go off. Yeah.
Yeah. I asked my client, like, what is my moat?
Right. This is my whole talk is the human moat.
I'm so glad you just said that. I was going to
say that very thing. Go ahead, Becca. I'll let
you go first. No, that's like my whole, I do
this whole talk now. It's called the human moat.
And it's the thing that is going to differentiate
us in the age of AI is you need to build your
moat because there are things. as a human, that
AI cannot replicate. And so you need to double,
triple, quadruple down on those things because
knowledge is now infinite, right? Content creation
is infinite. You have to do the things that the
machine can't do in those infinity pools. Yeah,
so I have come at it from a different side, which
is just that technology is not your moat, right?
Because there are so many easy ways to do the
technology. But then when you really stop and
think about it, we're all saying, shades of the
same thing, which is, in my view, brand is really
your moat. Right? If you can build a brand, build
a movement, a momentum that people want to run
toward, then the technology doesn't really matter
so much because people want to feel a part of
that thing you've built, that halo effect you've
built on the brand. The technology, it doesn't
matter. It really doesn't matter anymore. So
I think we're all saying the same thing. that's
why early stage founders who are still you know
doing their pitches it's why they're so effective
because they've done like basically by default
a ton of voice of the customer work yeah they've
either figured it they either had the pain point
themselves which is very common or they've like
seen it they like get obsessed with the customer
they understand so when they pitch it's like
someone is talking straight to their heart they
are giving them the painkiller right i mean that's
why it's hard to move from like the founder -led
growth to as we say like go -to -market machine
because that person does know the like ins and
outs every once and that's their baby and blah
blah blah and now they have to outsource that
to somebody else and make it scale right that's
hard yeah you can't scale you know human things
you just have to you have to find out what really
matters to the customers that you always track
it back to that pain point totally um i want
to make sure that we have time for our um favorite
segment of the show which is my questions followed
by perry's unhinged question can we segue into
rapid fire questions meg yeah yeah okay i'm ready
fabulous okay you get to erase one corporate
buzzword from existence what is it pivot that's
your whole thing yes because every time i'm at
like a high growth startup um every three months
there's a new strategic pivot oh yes right i
wouldn't want to erase it because it's part of
my sub stack i mean but if it makes it funnier
that it's kind of like you're using it to poke
fun at it yeah you have love hate with that word
yeah it's sort of like strategery you know yeah
i like it okay you're about to give a presentation
a keynote in front of 50 000 people Very excited
to see you. What song are you walking onto the
stage to? Um, it would have to be, uh, center
field. Cause I just love the analogy. Yeah. Put
me in coach. Yep. Put me in coach. That's kind
of my motto is like, just put me in. Yeah. Amazing.
Okay. Bull Durham, which is a great movie. Great
baseball. Very quick little side story. So my
brother -in -law, when he was playing little
league baseball, he begged and begged to get
a chance pitching and he pitched, but he got
shelled. They were just hitting him all over
the place. He literally started crying and said,
take me out, coach. Take me out, coach. That's
funny. I call them the soccer team and there
are those kids. I call them the Daisy kids. Okay.
You are going to give a TED Talk on anything
but strategic pivotry or product marketing or
marketing in general. What are you giving your
TED Talk on? I think I would give it on my experience
at the Taxi and Limousine Commission in New York
City and how I was there right before Uber got
introduced to the world and what that meant for
a government -sponsored monopoly. It's very complicated,
but I swear it is a very interesting story. And
it does involve Michael Cohen, who owns a bunch
of, you know, taxis and fleets. Medallion things?
Yeah. So, like, how medallions have historically
made money for New York City. The medallion thing
is so fascinating, frankly, for anyone who has
never dug deep into the New York medallion thing.
And, like, there's, like, crime around it and,
like, mafia stuff. Yeah. So cool. Yeah. All right.
I mean, I would like to go to this talk. So you
let me know when you're ready to present because
I'm here. Okay. My last question before handing
it over to the crazy one, you get to use one
emoji, only one for the rest of your life. Which
one? Oh, I really like the person throwing up
money or I don't know if they're throwing up,
but they're like, Oh, you're the first one who's
ever used that. I think I like it. It says so
much about our society. You are 100 % the first
person that has ever said that. And I don't think
I've ever used that emoji ever, actually. I've
seen it. I don't think I've ever used it. I think
I've only ever used it for like, guess what?
I got a sponsorship. Money face. Yeah. What's
up? I think you're more of like a melting shrub,
like capitalism. Yeah. I love it. Okay, Perry,
please. All right. So some of the questions that
I ask at this point are actually ridiculously
unhinged. But the last couple, I've asked the
same question. I'm going to stick with it one
more time, which is not that unhinged. It's actually
kind of a, I think it's a fascinating study in
the human condition, which is. You get to author
whatever you consider to be your masterpiece,
a book. Okay. Maybe it's the great American novel.
Maybe it's the definitive, you know, standard
on fractional, you know, whatever. And it gets
reviewed really exceptionally well. Best reviews
you can imagine, but it doesn't sell. Like reviews
are out of control. People are like coming to
your readings, but no one's buying the book for
some reason. Okay. That's one option. The other
option is no one gives a shit about the book.
um but it sells like crazy and you wrote it under
a non -diplom so you make wild amounts of cash
it has no acclaim whatsoever but you're rich
as shit uh do you take the critically acclaimed
masterpiece accolades or do you say fuck all
y 'all i'm taking the cash what do you think
so based on the emoji i just told you about i
think you're taking the cash yes i'm taking cash
see here's the thing is that i would like to
write a book but don't want to do any of the
like pr or I mean, I just want to live my life
and then I just want to like donate a bunch of
that money to, you know, anti -fascism. There
you go. Hey, we can get on board with that message.
I hear that's a terrorist group now, however.
Yes, yes, yes. We've got a domestic terrorist
on the show, ladies and gentlemen. Sorry, I'm
not myself. I've got to add the snark. Yeah,
my friends often say I'm like a menace, so close.
All right. Take the money and run. I like it.
Becca, did you even answer the question? Did
you ever answer that one? I'm not sure if I did,
but I would for sure take the money. Like no
question. That would not be hard for me. Yeah.
I would take the, I would take the cash too.
Now, having said that I was a reporter. So writing
is important to me. Like I've always really,
really cared about that. And when I was younger,
I had this sort of idealistic, like one day I'll
write the great American novel and blah, blah,
blah, blah. But yeah, I'm taking the money, man.
But you know what? Like I've come. As an adult
who, as an ADHD person who spent the better part
of my life thinking I was an idiot and feeling
really bad about myself, like I've come to realize
that being proud of myself and my own successes
gives me way more like, I guess, pride than,
you know, my colleagues seeing it. And I do think
that like, knowing that you've done this, that
you've written the great American novel and,
you know, getting to be rich, even if nobody
else knows, you still have the pride yourself.
yeah i think about that a lot with even being
fractional like a lot of times i don't put the
logos who i'm working with i don't care yeah
because i'm just taking the money and don't and
putting that directly into and you know you're
doing good work it's not like you're feeling
bad about like i'm not contributing here yeah
yeah i mean they're really appreciative of my
work which is very different than i think being
a rank and file employee totally okay i'm gonna
give you your minute to say anything you want
or direct our audience to where they can find
you. What would you like to leave us with Meg?
I think the sub stack is best just because for
me, that's where I really just kind of like pop
off. A lot of the reason I write is for people
that feel that they can't get out of that container
and they can't get out of the corporate domestication.
And I don't do the like, I'm, you know, typing
from a laptop at the pool. Like, the whole point
is, like, be practical about this the same way
that you have to be practical about anything.
And the other thing I would say is just that
being fractional or full -time is not binary.
Like, you might be fractional sometimes. You
might be full -time sometimes. Like, ask. You
see a full -time position, you don't really want
to work full -time, ask if they're open to fractional,
right? Like, there's just so much more gray than
corporate America wants us to think, and I like
to be in that. spot like i like my mom always
says if you don't ask you don't get totally right
the worst thing that can happen is someone can
say no yeah that's it yeah he will gets the grease
and so forth yeah well just so that our audience
knows your sub stack is called strategic pivetry
so go find the sub stack and um subscribe there
for more from meg um i have really enjoyed this
conversation today so thank you for joining us
I like the fire you brought, Meg. I like it.
Me too. I know. It's the Red Sox fan in me, really.
Oh, you're the Red Sox fan too? Look at you.
All right. Thanks, guys.