WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.500 PR people need to step up to the plate and be 00:00:02.500 --> 00:00:05.179 able to say like podcasts and sub stacks and 00:00:05.179 --> 00:00:08.160 newsletters are really taking off. They're highly 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:11.300 engaged, highly opted in folks who will reach 00:00:11.300 --> 00:00:13.220 your audience. You're never going to get on the 00:00:13.220 --> 00:00:15.980 top tier podcast if you haven't done shitty podcasts. 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:17.920 You're never going to get on the best page if 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:21.870 you haven't been on smaller stages. You have 00:00:21.870 --> 00:00:24.670 to go do these small things in order to get the 00:00:24.670 --> 00:00:27.109 bigger things. AI has actually proven to be kind 00:00:27.109 --> 00:00:29.850 of a boom for PR and comms generally, I think, 00:00:29.870 --> 00:00:31.929 because there's so much slop out there. These 00:00:31.929 --> 00:00:34.070 really heavy titles that people are paying a 00:00:34.070 --> 00:00:36.590 ton of money for, head of content, head of comms, 00:00:36.590 --> 00:00:38.929 head of, you know, because they need a quality 00:00:38.929 --> 00:00:41.090 human being overseeing what the machines are 00:00:41.090 --> 00:00:44.429 putting out. Welcome to Under Embargo, the podcast 00:00:44.429 --> 00:00:47.869 that says the quiet part out loud about PR, communications, 00:00:47.929 --> 00:00:51.479 and the chaos in between. Hosted by two of LinkedIn's 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:54.439 most connected comms pros, Becca Chambers, a 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:57.100 no BS corporate comms exec with raging ADHD, 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:00.920 and Pari Hedrick, founder of tech PR firm Crackle 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:04.280 PR. This show brings it all. Real talk, sharp 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:06.760 insights, and the kind of industry truth they 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:09.920 don't put in press releases. No fluff, no filters, 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:13.680 no f***s given. This is Under Embargo. Let's 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:16.890 get into it. Hello, everybody, and welcome back 00:01:16.890 --> 00:01:19.849 to another episode of the Under Embargo podcast. 00:01:20.189 --> 00:01:22.090 I'm Perry Hedrick, founder of Crackle, and as 00:01:22.090 --> 00:01:25.290 always, I'm joined by the indefatigable Becca 00:01:25.290 --> 00:01:28.810 Chambers, who is CMO of Scale Ventures. Today, 00:01:28.909 --> 00:01:31.709 we have a pretty cool guest. I'm excited to meet 00:01:31.709 --> 00:01:34.549 in person or, I guess, face -to -face with Meredith 00:01:34.549 --> 00:01:36.689 Klein, who I have known, and she has been in 00:01:36.689 --> 00:01:38.829 my circle on LinkedIn for years and years and 00:01:38.829 --> 00:01:41.859 years, and we've been... uh fangirling and fanboying 00:01:41.859 --> 00:01:43.900 with each other and cheering each other on through 00:01:43.900 --> 00:01:46.620 a bunch of different iterations but uh marith 00:01:46.620 --> 00:01:49.260 comes from a really storied background she was 00:01:49.260 --> 00:01:51.640 let's see here she was director of public relations 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:55.079 at walmart which is no small little entity She 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.280 later was head of consumer and product comms 00:01:57.280 --> 00:01:59.620 at Pinterest, another like banging, ridiculous 00:01:59.620 --> 00:02:03.299 brand. And then very recently, she has started 00:02:03.299 --> 00:02:05.299 out on her own venture, which we're going to 00:02:05.299 --> 00:02:07.319 get into a little bit more. But Meredith in the 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:10.020 media is a substack that she writes, and she's 00:02:10.020 --> 00:02:12.900 also a contributor to publications like Inc. 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:14.900 Magazine. So there's just a lot going on there. 00:02:14.939 --> 00:02:18.800 So with that said, welcome, Meredith. Thank you 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:21.439 so much for having me. I respect and adore you 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:24.560 both. So this is the hat. Like, I love that. 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:27.680 That is the brand. Like I, that's how I know 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:29.960 you from not knowing you, but like, you know, 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:34.039 seeing you out there and very on brand. Cause 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:37.939 we're talking about it now. What's the deal with 00:02:37.939 --> 00:02:42.479 the hat? Let's talk about the hat first. So it's 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:45.099 it's I wish it was a better story as a PR person. 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:47.419 But basically, like a few years ago, I was speaking 00:02:47.419 --> 00:02:49.960 at a Reagan conference in Austin, Texas, and 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:52.080 very basic. I was like, I have to have a cowboy 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:54.620 hat to do that. Turns out I got a great profile 00:02:54.620 --> 00:02:58.090 picture, made it, you know. few years and then 00:02:58.090 --> 00:03:02.569 in april 2025 after about six months of trying 00:03:02.569 --> 00:03:05.569 really hard to land a corporate job i said no 00:03:05.569 --> 00:03:08.629 more i said uh i'm going to launch a sub stack 00:03:08.629 --> 00:03:10.710 i've been talking about it on this platform people 00:03:10.710 --> 00:03:12.650 are interested like i'm gonna you know throw 00:03:12.650 --> 00:03:14.370 it like spaghetti to the wall and see what sticks 00:03:14.370 --> 00:03:17.289 so i took the profile picture with the hat not 00:03:17.289 --> 00:03:19.919 thinking anything of it uploaded it into chat 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:23.719 gpt said you know make an animated you know image 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:26.199 and call it meredith in the media spits it out 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:32.400 i said oh come on it gives back some images finally 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:35.259 land on one and then as i was doing the sub tabs 00:03:35.259 --> 00:03:39.710 i kept using that same kind of hat image. Meredith 00:03:39.710 --> 00:03:42.509 in the media, media news, media moves, media 00:03:42.509 --> 00:03:44.289 happy hours, media collabs, just kind of came 00:03:44.289 --> 00:03:46.990 synonymous. And I honestly, at that point, still 00:03:46.990 --> 00:03:49.110 didn't think anything of it. And I went to a 00:03:49.110 --> 00:03:52.250 Forbes Power Women's Summit, and I had three 00:03:52.250 --> 00:03:54.610 different people come up to me and say, are you 00:03:54.610 --> 00:03:58.110 Meredith from Meredith in the media? And I was 00:03:58.110 --> 00:04:01.840 humbled. Yeah. Why? How'd you know? And they're 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:05.340 like, the hat. I'm like, oh, not me, the hat. 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:07.900 So I was like, wait a second. This might be making 00:04:07.900 --> 00:04:11.060 fetch stick, if you will. Then a few weeks later, 00:04:11.139 --> 00:04:12.780 I went to the Fast Company Innovation Festival. 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:14.740 Same thing. People were coming up to me with 00:04:14.740 --> 00:04:17.959 the hat. And Brian Sazi, who's the executive 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:20.339 editor at Yahoo Finance and a good friend of 00:04:20.339 --> 00:04:22.740 mine, texted me. He's like, the brown hat is 00:04:22.740 --> 00:04:25.360 becoming synonymous with Steve Jobs' Black Turtle 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.139 deck and Bill Gates' glasses. And I'm like, oh, 00:04:28.180 --> 00:04:31.019 my God. Like that's the recognition. Otherwise, 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:33.300 I'm just another PR girl that happens to have 00:04:33.300 --> 00:04:35.899 blonde hair or brown hair or red hair. So it 00:04:35.899 --> 00:04:38.699 became a thing. And people were commenting like 00:04:38.699 --> 00:04:41.620 the iconic outfit, the iconic outfit. And what 00:04:41.620 --> 00:04:44.199 I didn't realize was I was every time I was putting 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:46.819 out a post, I was putting it out with that brand, 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:50.019 the brown blazer, the hat, all of that. So it 00:04:50.019 --> 00:04:52.319 became a thing. And now at this point, I posted 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:54.259 the other week without the hat. And I got a lot 00:04:54.259 --> 00:04:55.699 of comments. I didn't even know what you looked 00:04:55.699 --> 00:04:58.160 like without the hat. I'm like, well, I better 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:00.819 get an endorsement. I better get an endorsement 00:05:00.819 --> 00:05:02.720 from hers or something because I'm going to have 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:05.939 some serious hat head going on. Do we know what 00:05:05.939 --> 00:05:07.899 the brand of the hat is? Does the brand that 00:05:07.899 --> 00:05:09.699 makes the hat know that you wear it and you made 00:05:09.699 --> 00:05:12.930 it your thing? You know, they, this is actually 00:05:12.930 --> 00:05:15.550 from Urban Outfitters. It's like something that 00:05:15.550 --> 00:05:17.949 I had just bought, like to be kind of like cool 00:05:17.949 --> 00:05:21.709 Ranchero hat. I have since worked with a few 00:05:21.709 --> 00:05:24.050 actual cowboy hat makers, like the millinery, 00:05:24.290 --> 00:05:27.149 um, Carly Lamanna, who made me a custom cowboy 00:05:27.149 --> 00:05:29.350 hat that literally says Meredith in the media. 00:05:29.430 --> 00:05:31.689 And she like steamed it and did whatever else 00:05:31.689 --> 00:05:35.149 I'm up to about seven hats now. So, uh, you know, 00:05:35.149 --> 00:05:36.850 cause I got to change it. Does part of you think 00:05:36.850 --> 00:05:38.610 like, God damn it. Now I have to wear a hat everywhere 00:05:38.610 --> 00:05:42.689 I go. Or are you embracing it? A little bit of 00:05:42.689 --> 00:05:45.430 both. That's why I have so many different... 00:05:45.430 --> 00:05:48.069 As long as I stay within the brown, black, cream, 00:05:48.110 --> 00:05:51.350 and leopard print, that's within the brand of 00:05:51.350 --> 00:05:54.269 the image, I'm good. Getting a few different 00:05:54.269 --> 00:05:57.350 partnerships. I partnered with Shein, who gave 00:05:57.350 --> 00:05:59.949 me a whole bunch of brown and black dresses that 00:05:59.949 --> 00:06:01.649 I can wear, and having different conversations 00:06:01.649 --> 00:06:04.389 with brands, just so that I can show up on brand, 00:06:04.490 --> 00:06:07.310 but not look like I'm in the complete same thing. 00:06:07.410 --> 00:06:09.649 I have had some agencies ask me if I'm coming. 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:12.300 in the outfit and i will wear the traditional 00:06:12.300 --> 00:06:15.079 calvin klein you know brown jacket which like 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:16.899 my dry cleaner bill at this point she's like 00:06:16.899 --> 00:06:18.899 you wear this all the time you have any other 00:06:18.899 --> 00:06:21.139 clothes i'm like yeah it's hard to explain uh 00:06:21.139 --> 00:06:24.519 but yeah so a rotation of outfits but trying 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:26.699 to trying to stay on the brand create the brand 00:06:26.699 --> 00:06:30.060 um and i think it's really helpful uh in terms 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:34.139 of just like as a person i i like have to scream 00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:37.360 about this because people always say like you 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:40.420 know say Say we were having this conversation 00:06:40.420 --> 00:06:43.339 as a strategy a year ago and I said to you, hey, 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:44.959 you should wear the hat. And you're an executive 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.699 at a company saying, how is that going to help 00:06:47.699 --> 00:06:53.100 us get any leads? And me describing a year from 00:06:53.100 --> 00:06:56.879 now and state is something that nobody seems 00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:59.459 to be able to comprehend. But like you just lived 00:06:59.459 --> 00:07:01.379 it and you are a perfect example of why that 00:07:01.379 --> 00:07:04.009 matters, because it doesn't. it's not your hat 00:07:04.009 --> 00:07:05.930 isn't additive to your intelligence it's not 00:07:05.930 --> 00:07:09.290 making you a smarter person but it is making 00:07:09.290 --> 00:07:12.230 you more recognizable and distinguished from 00:07:12.230 --> 00:07:15.069 a sea of sameness and so that your ideas then 00:07:15.069 --> 00:07:17.110 can be the thing that stand out because people 00:07:17.110 --> 00:07:18.930 are ready to listen to you because they remember 00:07:18.930 --> 00:07:22.329 and um acknowledge who you are based on these 00:07:22.329 --> 00:07:24.569 brand signals and i just i just needed to stop 00:07:24.569 --> 00:07:26.509 and say that because it grinds my gears that 00:07:26.509 --> 00:07:30.610 people don't seem to understand this Spoken like 00:07:30.610 --> 00:07:32.870 a true CMO, and I take your advice on anything. 00:07:32.949 --> 00:07:35.370 We have our thing. Becca is Becca from LinkedIn. 00:07:35.410 --> 00:07:37.889 I am the this is the way guy, and you are the 00:07:37.889 --> 00:07:40.889 how guy. We're all crushing it in our own ways. 00:07:40.970 --> 00:07:42.790 But to the point you guys are both making, it 00:07:42.790 --> 00:07:44.670 makes us instantly recognizable. People read 00:07:44.670 --> 00:07:45.949 my post and they're like, oh, I know who that 00:07:45.949 --> 00:07:48.329 is because I see his little sign off. That 100 00:07:48.329 --> 00:07:51.689 % has separated me, as Becca says, from the sea 00:07:51.689 --> 00:07:55.649 of sameness out there. And you are the fist guy 00:07:55.649 --> 00:07:59.829 now. Every time I use it, I think of you. Yeah, 00:07:59.850 --> 00:08:01.449 well, I have people constantly, like literally 00:08:01.449 --> 00:08:03.250 five times a day, somebody will write a post 00:08:03.250 --> 00:08:05.449 and like, and as Perry Hendrick says, this is 00:08:05.449 --> 00:08:09.170 the way. At least they're giving you the credit 00:08:09.170 --> 00:08:11.170 and not trying to whip it because we got a lot 00:08:11.170 --> 00:08:15.430 of... Boy, a lot of people who are inspired by 00:08:15.430 --> 00:08:17.829 your posts yet rip it. I actually, it was funny. 00:08:17.910 --> 00:08:21.050 I did a post today with your friend, Becca, Corporate 00:08:21.050 --> 00:08:23.290 Natalie, who I adore. She did this hilarious 00:08:23.290 --> 00:08:26.850 spoof on interviewing for Bad Bunny Super Bowl. 00:08:26.930 --> 00:08:29.069 And she had like a headband with like the trees. 00:08:29.170 --> 00:08:32.470 And I actually did like a relatable post on, 00:08:32.490 --> 00:08:34.690 you know, interviewing in today's corporate world. 00:08:34.789 --> 00:08:38.909 And it's so true in terms of just, you know, 00:08:38.909 --> 00:08:41.450 the copying and whatever. And I was very clear, 00:08:41.509 --> 00:08:44.799 like, original video by you know corporate natalie 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:48.200 on tick tock link to it because like i know better 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:50.059 than to kind of rip it now was her video that 00:08:50.059 --> 00:08:52.200 i was showing with my contacts but i gave the 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:54.379 credit there and that just doesn't happen it 00:08:54.379 --> 00:08:58.700 doesn't again like you can have ideas that piggyback 00:08:58.700 --> 00:09:00.659 off somebody else's ideas and it doesn't take 00:09:00.659 --> 00:09:02.860 away from yours and so i don't understand why 00:09:02.860 --> 00:09:04.759 people wouldn't give credit you know what i mean 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:07.159 i mean there is the copy paste plagiarist which 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:10.320 is a different story but like you know You can 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:13.220 still rip people's ideas and like put a little 00:09:13.220 --> 00:09:15.460 bit of your own original spin on it and not be 00:09:15.460 --> 00:09:17.679 called a plagiarist. And I don't see why. Attribution, 00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:20.639 baby. It's easy. Why in 2025 are people so lazy 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:22.519 that they're copying and pasting people's content? 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:26.480 Like I cannot get over that. Like you have tools 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:28.460 at your disposal to hide your plagiarism at this 00:09:28.460 --> 00:09:33.080 point. Like at least try a little bit. So I want 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:35.480 to talk a little bit about the pivot that you've 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:38.279 made from being, you know, within a big, large 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:40.879 corporate entity to now striking off on your 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:43.679 own with Substack and the Meredith Media thing. 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:45.259 And you got your hat and you got your whole jam 00:09:45.259 --> 00:09:47.799 going. Talk to me about how that's going. Talk 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:49.639 to me about like what subscribers are looking 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:52.220 like. Like, give me a sense for what the cadence 00:09:52.220 --> 00:09:54.600 of your every day is like relative to the world 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:58.190 that you used to live in. Yeah. So Meredith in 00:09:58.190 --> 00:10:00.370 the media is something that just felt supernatural. 00:10:00.509 --> 00:10:03.549 Obviously I had done 20 years in PR. So my media 00:10:03.549 --> 00:10:05.809 Rolodex was pretty strong. You know, I'm on text 00:10:05.809 --> 00:10:08.799 basis with a lot of the reporters. And with the 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:11.139 state of journalism, I was like, hmm, we could 00:10:11.139 --> 00:10:13.460 really use a spotlight on journalists. And as 00:10:13.460 --> 00:10:15.879 great as it is, as comms folks being like, here's 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:18.120 how you pitch, here's what you do. I'm like, 00:10:18.139 --> 00:10:20.860 what if we heard it directly from the journalist's 00:10:20.860 --> 00:10:22.860 mouth, right? Like, you know, every comms person 00:10:22.860 --> 00:10:24.580 is great and has their own formula and there's 00:10:24.580 --> 00:10:27.320 some tried and true practices. But I really wanted 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:29.820 to shine a spotlight on what journalists were 00:10:29.820 --> 00:10:32.860 focused on, their careers, how to pitch them. 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:35.120 I mean, I'm still doing some consulting with 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:37.240 brands and like dying to get into some of these. 00:10:37.259 --> 00:10:39.519 these major New York Times corner office type 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.500 things that are coming back. And I'm like, let's 00:10:41.500 --> 00:10:43.659 pull the onion back on how actually that would 00:10:43.659 --> 00:10:46.720 work, but not from me having placed a few corner 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.580 office columns, but from Jordan directly, right? 00:10:49.620 --> 00:10:52.340 We're still working on her. So I really started 00:10:52.340 --> 00:10:54.500 saying, understanding that I've been in PR for 00:10:54.500 --> 00:10:57.399 20 years, I know the media landscape, but I want 00:10:57.399 --> 00:11:00.600 to help PR folks better in the media landscape. 00:11:00.860 --> 00:11:03.740 I launched Meredith in the Media. Every Monday, 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:07.460 I do a media interview. with a leading journalist. 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.419 I'm up to about 42 interviews since I launched 00:11:11.419 --> 00:11:15.659 in May 2025. I also, throughout the week, try 00:11:15.659 --> 00:11:19.929 to launch... media roundups and media news roundups. 00:11:19.970 --> 00:11:22.049 So if there's media moves and people have new 00:11:22.049 --> 00:11:24.649 beats or new outlets, I like to cover that. I 00:11:24.649 --> 00:11:27.169 also like to cover the media news. Like when 00:11:27.169 --> 00:11:29.570 Fast Company comes out with a new podcast by 00:11:29.570 --> 00:11:32.570 design with Mark Wilson and Liz Stinson, I want 00:11:32.570 --> 00:11:34.490 to make sure folks are covering that. I adore 00:11:34.490 --> 00:11:36.529 Mark. He does great work and it's an opportunity 00:11:36.529 --> 00:11:40.990 for PR folks. I also am trying to be really innovative. 00:11:41.269 --> 00:11:43.169 I'm not the first and only person that's ever 00:11:43.169 --> 00:11:46.720 posted interviews with journalists. So I... recently 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:50.059 launched live from the newsroom where I went 00:11:50.059 --> 00:11:53.500 to Business Insider for a full day with a videographer, 00:11:53.620 --> 00:11:57.039 sat in the 9 .30 meeting, went through all the 00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:59.740 editorial meetings, got to sit with Jamie Heller, 00:11:59.919 --> 00:12:02.080 who's the editor -in -chief, who's been absolutely 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:05.200 transformative there. And in the coming weeks, 00:12:05.259 --> 00:12:07.600 once I've had about 10 hours to sift through 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:10.320 the content and pull it together, I'll be giving 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:12.580 that behind -the -scene peek. And it's really 00:12:12.580 --> 00:12:15.759 meant to answer the questions of what is happening 00:12:15.690 --> 00:12:18.190 happening in a newsroom are folks actually getting 00:12:18.190 --> 00:12:20.210 your pitches turning and being like did you just 00:12:20.210 --> 00:12:22.370 get becca's pitch too my god she's pitching everyone 00:12:22.370 --> 00:12:24.309 right like i want to know all that kind of stuff 00:12:24.309 --> 00:12:28.230 um and uh really an inside look and then i also 00:12:28.230 --> 00:12:31.500 try to do spotlight so uh it's a lot of work 00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:33.840 to do an interview. It's about five hours start 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:37.059 to finish for a single interview. So I also try 00:12:37.059 --> 00:12:39.179 to do spotlights, whether it's sub stacks or 00:12:39.179 --> 00:12:41.360 independent folks and just ask them a few questions, 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:45.879 drive some subscription for them. And the other 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:49.159 thing would just be really focusing on new and 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:52.200 interesting ways to bring PR folks insights that 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:54.559 they're just not getting. I mean, 20 years ago, 00:12:54.620 --> 00:12:57.080 which is not so long ago, but I was going into 00:12:57.080 --> 00:12:59.500 newsrooms. I was making calls. Perry, I know 00:12:59.500 --> 00:13:02.580 we did the whole call exchange. I 100 % have 00:13:02.580 --> 00:13:05.860 been roasted. on calls from producers when I 00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:08.120 called them at the wrong time trying to get it 00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:09.539 in. I didn't know better, but that certainly 00:13:09.539 --> 00:13:12.639 shaped me. And I think, you know, with the pandemic 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:14.620 and folks working from home and remote work, 00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:18.080 which I think is great, there's a one side of 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:20.320 it where you're not getting that shadowing expertise 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:23.299 where you're truly seeing how your boss who's 00:13:23.299 --> 00:13:26.659 kind of been through it is doing PR and you're 00:13:26.659 --> 00:13:28.700 not going into the newsroom as much. People are 00:13:28.700 --> 00:13:31.220 scared of their own shadow. Nevertheless, they 00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:33.120 don't want, you know, we had this conversation. 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.960 You know, Monica Earle from Duolingo did a post 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:38.340 about, you know, not finding contact information. 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:40.700 Yeah, people are not including their phone numbers 00:13:40.700 --> 00:13:42.700 because they're terrified of getting that phone 00:13:42.700 --> 00:13:46.419 call. Yeah, I love it. And it's so true. And 00:13:46.419 --> 00:13:50.320 I have had so many opportunities and instances 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:52.779 where I've had to call a reporter and talk them 00:13:52.779 --> 00:13:56.259 off the ledge of a bad story. And PR people now, 00:13:56.519 --> 00:13:58.179 I mean, I don't want to, it's not a monolith. 00:13:58.220 --> 00:14:00.330 I don't want to say all, but. a little bit more 00:14:00.330 --> 00:14:02.450 scared too. So Meredith in the media is really 00:14:02.450 --> 00:14:05.230 like, okay, I'm trying to hit folks across sector, 00:14:05.370 --> 00:14:07.950 across publication to really be like, what's 00:14:07.950 --> 00:14:09.889 the best way to get on your radar? Tell me about 00:14:09.889 --> 00:14:12.429 the new columns. How do we pitch you? We don't 00:14:12.429 --> 00:14:14.269 have the relationship. Like, how do we get that 00:14:14.269 --> 00:14:16.169 relationship? And I've gotten a lot of great 00:14:16.169 --> 00:14:18.169 feedback on it really being transformative. So 00:14:18.169 --> 00:14:22.370 we're at 70 ,000 monthly views, over 3 ,500 subscribers. 00:14:23.330 --> 00:14:25.330 And we're just a baby less than a year. I have 00:14:25.330 --> 00:14:29.259 a question, I guess, you know, you're, doing 00:14:29.259 --> 00:14:31.419 all of this work that nobody's really doing anymore 00:14:31.419 --> 00:14:33.340 to your point like everything has changed over 00:14:33.340 --> 00:14:37.879 the past half a decade let's say what what is 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:41.299 different like other than like the you know interactions 00:14:41.299 --> 00:14:46.779 as far as you know face to face and how has obviously 00:14:46.779 --> 00:14:48.720 the media landscape has changed a lot how has 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.779 that changed the role of the pr person based 00:14:51.779 --> 00:14:53.559 on what you're seeing and based on what journalists 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:58.700 are saying um i guess that's my question Yeah, 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:00.860 no, it's a good question. I mean, I totally understand. 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:04.399 You know, there's a lot of the rise of Substack. 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.700 It's really more a resurgence. Like Substacks 00:15:06.700 --> 00:15:09.120 have been around for a very long time, like Casey 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:12.059 Newton, the platformer, super early on years 00:15:12.059 --> 00:15:15.500 ago. We're just seeing a resurgence of it because 00:15:15.500 --> 00:15:18.039 we're either seeing reporters getting forced 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:21.019 into it through layoffs, like Jeffrey Fowler 00:15:21.019 --> 00:15:24.120 very sadly got laid off at the Washington Post. 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.080 Within the same breath of saying he got laid 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:29.279 off, he announced a new sub stack. Like it was 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:32.120 an immediate like switch to that. Joanna Stern, 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:35.299 one of like the legacy reporters for personal 00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:37.740 tech at Wall Street Journal, just announced she's 00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:39.659 going to be starting her own media company to 00:15:39.659 --> 00:15:41.779 be determined if it's, you know, Beehive or, 00:15:41.779 --> 00:15:44.539 you know, something else. But but super, you 00:15:44.539 --> 00:15:46.740 know, exciting nonetheless. So what's different 00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:50.750 is. this need for PR folks to understand and 00:15:50.750 --> 00:15:53.210 be able to clearly articulate to their clients 00:15:53.210 --> 00:15:56.649 the importance of an integrated media mix. And 00:15:56.649 --> 00:15:59.950 I know that's not new either. I was trying to 00:15:59.950 --> 00:16:03.389 pitch newsletters back in 2020 like, hey, we 00:16:03.389 --> 00:16:05.129 got any information. They're like, not on the 00:16:05.129 --> 00:16:07.710 website. I'm like, in the newsletter where people 00:16:07.710 --> 00:16:10.809 opt in and want to get this feedback. Don't actually 00:16:10.809 --> 00:16:14.570 go to the information. backslash weekend, but 00:16:14.570 --> 00:16:17.629 get it into their inbox, right? So it's not that 00:16:17.629 --> 00:16:20.750 it's new. It's that PR people need to step up 00:16:20.750 --> 00:16:24.350 to the plate and be able to say like, okay, podcasts 00:16:24.350 --> 00:16:27.649 and sub stacks and newsletters are really taking 00:16:27.649 --> 00:16:30.929 off. They're highly engaged, highly opted in 00:16:30.929 --> 00:16:33.509 folks who will reach your audience. And it's 00:16:33.509 --> 00:16:36.590 a more action oriented audience. I'd rather reach. 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:40.019 3 000 people with the majority taking action 00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:44.440 on that then maybe get a circ or uvm of 2 .78 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:46.679 million point five six seven eight i'm so tired 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:48.659 of like those numbers that's it though right 00:16:48.659 --> 00:16:50.799 you have to be in more places now except for 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:53.799 those places have people who are actually the 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:56.340 people who want to engage with your stuff so 00:16:56.340 --> 00:16:58.700 it's two sides of a coin but to your point like 00:16:58.700 --> 00:17:01.570 that is far more effective to be speaking to 00:17:01.570 --> 00:17:03.090 a small group of people that care about what 00:17:03.090 --> 00:17:04.690 you're talking about than to a massive group 00:17:04.690 --> 00:17:07.730 of people who probably don't. So, yeah. Yeah. 00:17:07.869 --> 00:17:10.009 And I've got two reporters who told me this. 00:17:10.069 --> 00:17:12.130 So Kaya Uriaf, who used to be at The Information, 00:17:12.369 --> 00:17:14.230 now she's got her own, you know, publication, 00:17:14.529 --> 00:17:19.230 Scalable. She said to me, the billion follower 00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:22.470 era is over. Like folks are less concerned with 00:17:22.470 --> 00:17:24.329 like massive amounts of followers, which is still 00:17:24.329 --> 00:17:26.529 important in some degree, but more concerned 00:17:26.529 --> 00:17:28.470 with like, where can they like authentically 00:17:28.470 --> 00:17:31.630 relate to folks too, which is why you two have 00:17:31.630 --> 00:17:34.450 been so huge following, but so successful because 00:17:34.450 --> 00:17:37.349 you're so relatable. I'm like, I feel like. We're 00:17:37.349 --> 00:17:40.069 speaking the same language. And then, you know, 00:17:40.109 --> 00:17:41.750 I've had other reporters and now I'm blanking 00:17:41.750 --> 00:17:43.509 out, but like other reporters who have literally 00:17:43.509 --> 00:17:47.220 told me the dynamic shift is different. Right. 00:17:47.299 --> 00:17:49.380 Like it's all about the audience. It's all about 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:51.980 who you're reaching. It's all about the relatability 00:17:51.980 --> 00:17:55.319 to that. And the concept of content creator and 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.480 influencer is blurring a little bit. Right. So 00:17:58.480 --> 00:17:59.859 I think that's really interesting, too. And I 00:17:59.859 --> 00:18:02.500 talk about this a lot. Everybody is quick to 00:18:02.500 --> 00:18:04.579 point out that traditional media is kind of withering 00:18:04.579 --> 00:18:06.400 on the vine to some extent, which it is. There's 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:08.400 layoffs everywhere. That is definitely a thing. 00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:11.000 But against that backdrop, there's been this 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:12.960 sort of atomization of all these people where 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:14.640 they've gone to these different locations, the 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.640 different platforms, the beehives. Pubstacks, 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:18.759 the podcast. So I'd argue there's actually probably 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.480 more opportunity than there was in the past. 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:23.619 It just takes a hell of a lot more individualization 00:18:23.619 --> 00:18:27.259 and targeting and authenticity when you're doing 00:18:27.259 --> 00:18:29.579 your outreach to get to those people to in aggregate 00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:31.619 build that halo effect for the brand you rep. 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:33.599 So what does that mean? It means it's fucking 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.240 hard. I mean, it takes a lot more work. and a 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.180 lot more time and it's uncomfortable for the 00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:40.839 big giant agencies who maybe aren't used to that 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:43.279 and are still trying to get paid by the hour 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.099 to go out there and infiltrate these little pockets 00:18:46.099 --> 00:18:48.559 of influence it's a difficult world but it doesn't 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.960 mean sorry it doesn't mean you have to work harder 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:52.359 it just means you have to shift your strategy 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:54.680 right it means stop doing some of the stuff that 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:57.359 doesn't work anymore and i like that's the problem 00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.859 is we're in this transitional phase where everybody's 00:18:59.859 --> 00:19:02.720 adding sub stacks and podcasts and all of these 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:06.519 you know non -traditional media as kind of extras 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:08.980 to their comms plan when really they should be 00:19:08.980 --> 00:19:11.700 focused on that. And the like old media strategy 00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:14.039 should be the extra that they do when they have 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:17.279 time. Right. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And that's the thing 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.680 too. And so there's, there's the, the maturation 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:23.119 phase of like PR folks that are like for sub 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:25.920 stack or kind of, you know, anti sub stack, just 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.940 place them with their ways. It is like, woo, 00:19:29.180 --> 00:19:31.400 like major scales. Like people ask me all the 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:33.680 time, how do I work with a sub stack journalist? 00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:35.920 And I'm like, exactly the same way that you'd 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.240 work with a legacy journalist. You take someone 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.339 like Alex Conrad, who was at Forbes for 12 years 00:19:41.339 --> 00:19:44.920 and now has Upstarts Media. He breaks a story, 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:49.220 breaks an embargo. That news is out there. He 00:19:49.220 --> 00:19:51.299 still has the same background. He's still got 00:19:51.299 --> 00:19:54.059 the same journalist integrity. He's still got 00:19:54.059 --> 00:19:56.319 the same audience and influence. He's just doing 00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.930 it on his platform. Alex Conrad, Upstarts Media, 00:20:00.150 --> 00:20:02.769 Jason Del Rey, The Aisle, Alex Heath Sources, 00:20:02.950 --> 00:20:07.069 Rich DeMuro. The list goes on of folks who have 00:20:07.069 --> 00:20:10.630 come from massive legacy publications, who have 00:20:10.630 --> 00:20:12.490 the classical journalism training, who've got 00:20:12.490 --> 00:20:14.869 the ethics, who've got the following now doing 00:20:14.869 --> 00:20:17.490 their own thing. So I even have some clients 00:20:17.490 --> 00:20:19.490 who are like, well, we'd still like to be in 00:20:19.490 --> 00:20:22.309 Forbes and Fortune. I'm like, OK, great. Right. 00:20:22.390 --> 00:20:25.210 But like. We're going to also get you in like 00:20:25.210 --> 00:20:27.490 the Sunday setup, which is a great newsletter 00:20:27.490 --> 00:20:29.650 on leadership. And you should be in there. And 00:20:29.650 --> 00:20:31.369 the folks that read it are probably going to 00:20:31.369 --> 00:20:33.970 be interested in being part of what you've got 00:20:33.970 --> 00:20:36.250 going on. And I think, you know, Becky, you were 00:20:36.250 --> 00:20:38.269 going to say something, but that's the difference. 00:20:38.430 --> 00:20:41.569 You've got to work smarter, but you've also got 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:44.190 to be able to articulate that. PR folks have 00:20:44.190 --> 00:20:46.170 to be able to say to the client who's like, but 00:20:46.170 --> 00:20:50.279 I want Wall Street Journal. Hey, like. But actually, 00:20:50.380 --> 00:20:53.779 you're going to get more traction by getting 00:20:53.779 --> 00:20:58.400 your content. As an in -house comms lady, which 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:00.380 I know you were for many years, but I want to 00:21:00.380 --> 00:21:06.779 raise the pickle that I think most in -house 00:21:06.779 --> 00:21:08.799 comms people are in, which is that their leadership 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:10.619 is saying, I want to be in the Wall Street Journal. 00:21:10.819 --> 00:21:15.420 I want to be in Forbes. And the comms person 00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:19.299 knows, actually, you need to focus on. these 00:21:19.299 --> 00:21:22.559 independent journalists, podcasts, newsletters, 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:25.640 blah, blah, blah. But there is a massive disconnect 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:30.039 and a junior comms person or even a senior comms 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:33.740 person doesn't always have the ability to convince 00:21:33.740 --> 00:21:39.380 said executive that. the new media strategy is 00:21:39.380 --> 00:21:42.559 more important. So like, how do we arm the communications 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:45.579 people with whatever it is they need to be able 00:21:45.579 --> 00:21:47.839 to convince their executives that they should 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:50.180 be going on podcasts and they should be spending 00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:53.410 their time. doing interviews that are going to 00:21:53.410 --> 00:21:56.049 end up in independent media rather than in... 00:21:56.049 --> 00:21:57.369 One thing to add to that, it's not even just 00:21:57.369 --> 00:21:59.670 the executives, it's the board that the executives 00:21:59.670 --> 00:22:01.930 are important to. Because ultimately that's who 00:22:01.930 --> 00:22:03.250 they're trying to impress. Non -coms people. 00:22:03.690 --> 00:22:06.490 It's the people who don't have their finger on 00:22:06.490 --> 00:22:09.650 the pulse of this, who aren't, you know, they 00:22:09.650 --> 00:22:12.890 themselves subscribe to newsletters and sub stacks, 00:22:13.009 --> 00:22:15.450 but still somehow don't understand that that's 00:22:15.450 --> 00:22:16.869 where they need to reach their audience, you 00:22:16.869 --> 00:22:18.750 know? So I don't know how we help with that mind 00:22:18.750 --> 00:22:22.259 shift because that's a real problem. That's it's 00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:25.240 a real problem. So the way that I used to, you 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:27.440 know, do this when newsletters first became a 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.140 big thing and like they're like, we're not on 00:22:29.140 --> 00:22:30.440 Wall Street Journal. I'm like, but you're in 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:32.240 the newsletter that gets emailed to everyone. 00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:35.220 I mean, I think one of the biggest things you'll 00:22:35.220 --> 00:22:37.380 remember as a junior person, whenever you're 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:39.339 vetting something, it's like who's already been 00:22:39.339 --> 00:22:42.259 on. So like minded examples of executives that 00:22:42.259 --> 00:22:44.539 have been on sample of coverage, tone of whatever 00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:47.059 else. I think one of the new metrics that I've 00:22:47.059 --> 00:22:49.200 started sharing with clients is shareability. 00:22:49.500 --> 00:22:53.240 So like might have. 3 ,500 subscribers, right? 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:56.359 Might have three likes on it. Let's please stop 00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:58.599 measuring anything by like number of likes. Look 00:22:58.599 --> 00:23:00.680 at the engagement, look at the impressions, but 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:03.380 saves and shareability. Like when I was at Pinterest, 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:05.799 saves was a huge metric because it meant like 00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:08.440 saving it to take action on afterwards. That's 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:11.500 the same for, you know, I will bookmark a podcast 00:23:11.500 --> 00:23:13.259 and I'm like, I got to listen to this for later, 00:23:13.339 --> 00:23:15.039 right? So like people should be looking at - 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:16.859 That's what my kid is doing with this algo, by 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:18.940 the way. Saves and shares, same thing, but go 00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:21.609 ahead. Yeah, it's huge. So I think we should 00:23:21.609 --> 00:23:23.470 be looking at that. So like, if you look at some, 00:23:23.509 --> 00:23:27.269 like, I remember when Parisa Cavillans left CNN 00:23:27.269 --> 00:23:30.490 after 24 years being there, had worked with her 00:23:30.490 --> 00:23:33.450 for years, you know, part of, you know, restructuring 00:23:33.450 --> 00:23:36.130 being done, she launched Bagable. which is a 00:23:36.130 --> 00:23:38.410 shopping sub stack. And I remember saying to 00:23:38.410 --> 00:23:39.950 clients, oh, I'm going to pitch you for this 00:23:39.950 --> 00:23:42.369 sub stack. It wasn't until I was like, look, 00:23:42.589 --> 00:23:46.769 she's interviewed PacSun CEO, Brianna, and she's 00:23:46.769 --> 00:23:50.109 interviewing Elf Beauty. Elf Beauty is one who 00:23:50.109 --> 00:23:52.549 I would say is. always impressed me with their 00:23:52.549 --> 00:23:54.670 level of media. They're always in Puck News and 00:23:54.670 --> 00:23:56.690 they're always doing whatever else. And unfortunately, 00:23:56.849 --> 00:23:59.730 what happens is those that are the trailblazers, 00:23:59.750 --> 00:24:02.269 like, you know, are first to feast, if you will. 00:24:02.430 --> 00:24:04.650 And then once everyone else figures it out, it's 00:24:04.650 --> 00:24:06.930 like the water's muddy and it's much harder. 00:24:07.369 --> 00:24:09.829 So I try to use those as examples. So the first 00:24:09.829 --> 00:24:12.269 thing I say is I look at, look at the background. 00:24:12.529 --> 00:24:14.849 Parisha started Bagable, but she's got 24 years 00:24:14.849 --> 00:24:18.650 at CNN interviewing major CEOs. She's also just 00:24:18.650 --> 00:24:21.039 done an interview with the CEO of PAC. Sun. Yes, 00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:24.059 at the time, followers wasn't big. But imagine 00:24:24.059 --> 00:24:26.279 the folks that are opting into this, reading 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:28.720 this. That's who you want to see your news, see 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.319 the thing. Easier said than done. It's still 00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:33.539 a forever battle. I'm still chasing the tale 00:24:33.539 --> 00:24:35.839 of Wall Street Journal and traditional news ever 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.400 after having gotten lots of, you know, it's not 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:39.759 even new media anymore. I can't even call it 00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:43.660 integrated media. But, you know, Emma Hinchcliffe 00:24:43.660 --> 00:24:49.539 at Fortune, who writes the MPW daily newsletter 00:24:49.539 --> 00:24:53.660 and is a good friend said to me, you are going 00:24:53.660 --> 00:24:58.299 to see traditional media looking at the independent, 00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:01.380 seeing how they can be more scrappy and innovative 00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:03.319 and creative. And you're going to see the independent 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:07.059 folks looking to try to emulate what's in traditional 00:25:07.059 --> 00:25:09.740 media, which is so true, right? Like none, no 00:25:09.740 --> 00:25:11.859 doubt that I have my eye on what are different 00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:15.319 ways that I can bring a cheddar style, you know, 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:17.589 vignette. to meredith in the media because right 00:25:17.589 --> 00:25:19.650 now i'm doing a lot of written texts right like 00:25:19.650 --> 00:25:22.269 and and there's things that inspire me in the 00:25:22.269 --> 00:25:25.230 newsroom that i want to be doing um from from 00:25:25.230 --> 00:25:27.470 legacy they're trying to do more you're seeing 00:25:27.470 --> 00:25:29.970 fast company and inc forbes has had contributor 00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:32.309 model forever you're going to see more and more 00:25:32.309 --> 00:25:34.089 of those lines blurred where they're bringing 00:25:34.089 --> 00:25:37.109 folks of influence who they want to attract their 00:25:37.109 --> 00:25:40.740 audiences onto legacy publications can i ask 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:42.480 you talk a lot about people that you've known 00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.440 forever and you've been in this business for 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.660 a while and we all have and you know i have my 00:25:46.660 --> 00:25:48.380 my friends sound like you have a lot of friends 00:25:48.380 --> 00:25:51.440 in the media obviously um what would you say 00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:54.019 to people that still think relationships are 00:25:54.019 --> 00:25:57.960 the most important thing about um getting good 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:00.680 placements good articles good uh newsletters 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:03.240 is it is the relationship the thing or is the 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.640 story the thing or is it both before you answer 00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:08.590 i would just say my take has always been that 00:26:08.590 --> 00:26:10.670 relationships will get you a fair hearing because 00:26:10.670 --> 00:26:12.369 you've earned the right to have someone listen. 00:26:12.950 --> 00:26:15.650 But ultimately, it depends on the story because 00:26:15.650 --> 00:26:17.650 your best friend is not going to just do you 00:26:17.650 --> 00:26:20.470 a solid because you know him or her. But I want 00:26:20.470 --> 00:26:21.789 to hear what you say because you know a lot of 00:26:21.789 --> 00:26:23.710 really, really important folks in this industry. 00:26:24.460 --> 00:26:27.579 Yeah. So I think relationships are important, 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:31.319 but I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever send 00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:34.079 a relationship a nothing burger and waste their 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.539 time with it. So I do think the story is paramount. 00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:39.759 You've got to have a good story. You could not 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:42.079 have a relationship and have a great story and 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:44.059 make a relationship because you have a great 00:26:44.059 --> 00:26:48.539 story. That said, I also think it's easier to 00:26:48.539 --> 00:26:51.160 get some feedback. So I will reach out to folks 00:26:51.160 --> 00:26:53.200 that are friendlies and say like, hey, I've got 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:55.180 this story. Like, I think this could be great 00:26:55.180 --> 00:26:57.460 for, you know, chip cutter. Like, what do you 00:26:57.460 --> 00:26:59.680 think? Who should I send it to? And they'll respond 00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:01.319 and be like, actually, this is better for Vanessa. 00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:03.640 Like, do you want me to introduce you? So I will 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:07.920 use relationships to either say like, hey, inbound, 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:10.440 got an embargo, coming in, check your inbox at 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:13.299 12 and like tip folks off. And they're more likely 00:27:13.299 --> 00:27:15.359 to respond to me. Even if they're like, hey, 00:27:15.420 --> 00:27:17.319 this isn't a fit or whatever. But I will never 00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:20.619 send a media, especially a friendly, something 00:27:20.619 --> 00:27:23.599 that's an absolute nothing burger. They're going 00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:25.660 to take when I do have a story less seriously. 00:27:26.099 --> 00:27:27.720 And I don't want to burn that. So I'm really 00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:29.920 big on like you have two clients, like you're 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.819 paying client at the moment and the media who 00:27:32.819 --> 00:27:34.680 hopefully will be your client forever, no matter 00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:37.579 where they go. So I'm really big on not burning 00:27:37.579 --> 00:27:39.660 those media relationships. I do think relationships 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:42.079 are important. It's the reason why I just got 00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:44.420 a story. I had a great story that was perfect 00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:46.099 for TechCrunch, but I had never worked with the 00:27:46.099 --> 00:27:48.980 editor. Basically sent out a pigeon carrier. 00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:51.079 Couldn't get in touch with her. I'm like, I don't 00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:53.950 know. Reached out. texted someone i worked with 00:27:53.950 --> 00:27:56.569 at forbes hey got a story right up your alley 00:27:56.569 --> 00:27:58.950 think it could be you if not you could be your 00:27:58.950 --> 00:28:02.029 colleague immediately connected me via email 00:28:02.029 --> 00:28:03.950 to the colleague work with them we ended up getting 00:28:03.950 --> 00:28:06.730 a story same exact story was totally relevant 00:28:06.730 --> 00:28:09.329 for tech crunch totally relevant for forbes that 00:28:09.329 --> 00:28:11.329 was an instance where having the relationship 00:28:11.329 --> 00:28:14.460 mattered but it was a good story So it's like 00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:16.720 a hard, you know, I see a lot of posts on LinkedIn, 00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:19.779 like hard against relationships or hard for relationships. 00:28:20.259 --> 00:28:22.279 You do have to have a good story no matter what, 00:28:22.420 --> 00:28:24.759 but the relationship will help a little. Isn't 00:28:24.759 --> 00:28:27.140 it the same idea as like having a warm intro 00:28:27.140 --> 00:28:29.880 to like a job that's open? Like they're not going 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:31.720 to hire a shitty person just because their friend 00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:34.500 recommended them, but they might take the call, 00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:36.440 right? They might say, okay, I'll interview that 00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:39.839 person or because I trust you, you know, there 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.660 is some trust put on whatever. But I think this 00:28:42.660 --> 00:28:45.019 idea that like, yeah like journalists are just 00:28:45.019 --> 00:28:47.460 doing like favors for their friends and like 00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:51.940 especially in this time when like they already 00:28:51.940 --> 00:28:54.140 have 9 ,000 things they need to cover that they 00:28:54.140 --> 00:28:55.500 don't have time to cover. Like they're going 00:28:55.500 --> 00:28:58.839 to just add your crappy favor into the mix is 00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:00.839 such a. Well, it's kind of funny. A lot of people 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:03.180 just don't know that everybody has access to 00:29:03.180 --> 00:29:05.480 lists of reporters. Like anybody can get access 00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:07.779 to a database of reporters. You can pitch them. 00:29:07.819 --> 00:29:09.160 It's just, you don't know how to do it. Yeah. 00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:10.900 Right. It's not like we're in the mafia. We call 00:29:10.900 --> 00:29:12.660 them these favors. I'm like, Nunzio is going 00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:15.420 to slip you a, you know, $50 milk and get that 00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:19.180 story. hey tony i got something i also think 00:29:19.180 --> 00:29:23.019 with the fishes this goes back to the like being 00:29:23.019 --> 00:29:26.519 in more places like most of the thing most of 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:29.279 the media that i've been quoted in almost all 00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:31.180 of it has been because a journalist has found 00:29:31.180 --> 00:29:33.880 me because of my content that is out in the ether 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:36.460 or my thoughts or my thought leadership or my 00:29:36.460 --> 00:29:39.700 podcast or whatever so it goes to the like flywheel 00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:43.390 of yeah maybe doing this crappy podcast does 00:29:43.390 --> 00:29:46.150 have value because six months from now, somebody 00:29:46.150 --> 00:29:49.730 from the Washington Post is going to watch it 00:29:49.730 --> 00:29:51.390 and be like, oh, she has a perspective on the 00:29:51.390 --> 00:29:52.950 thing I want to talk about. And I swear that 00:29:52.950 --> 00:29:56.109 is where I've gotten my best media coverage is. 00:29:56.509 --> 00:29:58.130 almost all of the coverage that I've had, like 00:29:58.130 --> 00:30:00.529 personal coverage, is because people have found 00:30:00.529 --> 00:30:03.849 my thought leadership out in the internet world, 00:30:03.990 --> 00:30:07.450 LinkedIn, podcast, whatever. So it's not me pitching 00:30:07.450 --> 00:30:10.009 the media. It's them finding their sources because 00:30:10.009 --> 00:30:11.589 they're like, oh, this person has an interesting 00:30:11.589 --> 00:30:15.309 perspective that I want to include in my article 00:30:15.309 --> 00:30:19.170 or whatever. So I don't remember where I was 00:30:19.170 --> 00:30:23.750 going with that. No, just so I think you're right 00:30:23.750 --> 00:30:26.349 in terms of the importance of doing content, 00:30:26.630 --> 00:30:29.670 no matter if it's a big podcast or a small one, 00:30:29.769 --> 00:30:32.349 it's where you place and disseminate that content, 00:30:32.549 --> 00:30:34.789 which is to your earlier point, meeting readers 00:30:34.789 --> 00:30:36.710 where they are in their content journey. So, 00:30:36.710 --> 00:30:39.710 for example, Andy Incencio, who's been a reporter 00:30:39.710 --> 00:30:43.009 at the Associated Press for 24 years, actually 00:30:43.009 --> 00:30:45.369 told me that one of the ways she finds new sources 00:30:45.369 --> 00:30:47.910 is through LinkedIn comments. So she might work 00:30:47.910 --> 00:30:51.529 six months on a story for AP. sit on LinkedIn 00:30:51.529 --> 00:30:56.069 and a brand, a CEO might write great story, but 00:30:56.069 --> 00:30:58.569 you didn't think about XYZ angle. And she's like, 00:30:58.630 --> 00:31:01.069 that's really interesting. I then reach out to 00:31:01.069 --> 00:31:03.690 them, like, tell me more about XYZ angle. And 00:31:03.690 --> 00:31:05.950 all of a sudden she has a new source, a new story 00:31:05.950 --> 00:31:08.490 through LinkedIn where she published her work. 00:31:08.789 --> 00:31:11.609 Another example is clients are often asking me, 00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:14.569 you know, we want to get on Guy Raz, how I built 00:31:14.569 --> 00:31:17.130 this. That's kind of like the Mecca. Awesome. 00:31:17.390 --> 00:31:21.000 Super hard to get, right? If and when you do 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.440 get Guy Raz, where are you posting it? You're 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:25.700 posting it on LinkedIn. You're posting it on 00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:28.599 your Facebook, X, Instagram, whatever you're 00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:31.019 doing. So you're taking that content and then 00:31:31.019 --> 00:31:33.000 putting it on different channels to be found. 00:31:33.220 --> 00:31:37.400 How people find content is the key takeaway here. 00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:39.920 It's not that you got on Guy Raz. That's great. 00:31:40.569 --> 00:31:43.549 but but where are they seeing it my i know when 00:31:43.549 --> 00:31:46.589 i post on facebook it's like all of my like aunts 00:31:46.589 --> 00:31:49.430 from you know florida and all over my mom and 00:31:49.430 --> 00:31:51.690 dad's friends it's usually kid pictures but they're 00:31:51.690 --> 00:31:54.809 like wow mary are you a journalist is she a journalist 00:31:54.809 --> 00:31:57.829 cindy right so it's like you know you got to 00:31:57.829 --> 00:31:59.470 kind of manipulate a little bit for the channels 00:31:59.470 --> 00:32:02.000 but they wouldn't have seen my Guy Raz podcast 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:03.980 if I didn't post it on Facebook because they're 00:32:03.980 --> 00:32:06.839 not going to Guy Raz. Or if I'm posting on Instagram, 00:32:07.019 --> 00:32:08.680 that's where I'm like, I'm like feeling myself 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:10.900 a little bit. I got my best picture and I'm posting 00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:13.140 it for my friends who are like, slay girl, go 00:32:13.140 --> 00:32:16.019 after it, right? Like you're meeting folks at 00:32:16.019 --> 00:32:18.160 different, you know, areas of where they're doing 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:21.180 the content. So to the PR folks and the executives 00:32:21.180 --> 00:32:23.259 and the boards who are like, Wall Street Journal 00:32:23.259 --> 00:32:27.859 or bust, well, you're busting. You busted because 00:32:27.859 --> 00:32:30.200 like, actually you're not, if you're not going 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:31.700 to get on that, you're not going to be found 00:32:31.700 --> 00:32:33.480 elsewhere. And then your content is just not 00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:35.180 on there. You might as well just like post a 00:32:35.180 --> 00:32:37.799 corporate blog. Exactly. And there's two things 00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:40.200 I want to double down on with that one going 00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:42.960 on a shitty podcast where you still get video 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.920 clips of you saying intelligent things is still 00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:49.359 very useful, usable content, right? Go make some 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:51.960 clips and go share it and all of the places and 00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:56.369 go be. out there um the second thing being you're 00:32:56.369 --> 00:32:59.109 never going to get on the top tier podcast if 00:32:59.109 --> 00:33:00.569 you haven't done shitty podcasts you're never 00:33:00.569 --> 00:33:03.430 going to get on the best if you haven't been 00:33:03.430 --> 00:33:07.890 on smaller stages so like you have to go do these 00:33:07.890 --> 00:33:09.990 small things in order to get the bigger things 00:33:09.990 --> 00:33:13.369 anyway so like look at it as practice i don't 00:33:13.369 --> 00:33:16.170 know but against that backdrop too is the llm 00:33:16.170 --> 00:33:19.359 thing we keep talking about becca The way that, 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:23.019 you know, ChatGPT, Perplexity, Claude, Gemini, 00:33:23.140 --> 00:33:26.019 they are using in their citations all these instances 00:33:26.019 --> 00:33:28.319 of earned media across podcasts and Substack 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:30.720 and Reddit and you name it. And so in aggregate, 00:33:30.779 --> 00:33:33.079 the recency of those things is what elevates 00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:35.019 you to the answer section when people are looking 00:33:35.019 --> 00:33:37.019 for your stuff at the point of need. So like 00:33:37.019 --> 00:33:39.880 your practice is actually very beneficial in 00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:41.880 real time to you being found and discovered for 00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:45.319 more opportunities. There's also a whole brand, 00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:49.799 personal brand. executive brand founder brand 00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:53.460 conversation in this, which is if I Google Becca 00:33:53.460 --> 00:33:57.000 chambers now, what comes up is like a description 00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:00.160 of me that I have written about myself and put 00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:02.839 out into the world. So like I have curated the, 00:34:02.900 --> 00:34:05.859 who is Becca chambers response from LLMs because 00:34:05.859 --> 00:34:07.880 I've put enough of who is Becca chambers out 00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:10.119 into the world. If everyone just spent more time 00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:12.280 doing that as individuals, as brands, whatever 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:17.059 you can kind of. create the story, the answer 00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:19.280 response that people are getting from LLMs in 00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:22.440 a much more packaged paragraph answer than it 00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:24.320 used to be with a bunch of random links, right? 00:34:24.460 --> 00:34:26.500 And I just think like people are underestimating 00:34:26.500 --> 00:34:29.340 how important that is when someone says, you 00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:31.880 know, who is Perry Hedrick? And it just says, 00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:35.440 Perry is blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's exactly 00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:37.360 the description you want it to be. Well, I do 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:40.429 that too, Becca. And I start with... Often confused 00:34:40.429 --> 00:34:42.949 for Brad Pitt. Yes. Perry Hedrick is, and I just 00:34:42.949 --> 00:34:45.389 go deeper and deeper. That's what I got. Yeah. 00:34:47.489 --> 00:34:52.630 I knew you looked familiar. Yeah. I get Ronald 00:34:52.630 --> 00:34:58.730 Reagan quite a bit. I want to switch gears a 00:34:58.730 --> 00:35:02.110 little bit quickly. So two things I want to talk 00:35:02.110 --> 00:35:03.929 about. One is community, which I'll get to next. 00:35:04.030 --> 00:35:06.059 But the first thing I want to say is. I think 00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:08.760 you in some ways have flipped the model, Meredith, 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.659 in the sense that the majority of folks travel 00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:15.280 from being a reporter, journalist over into the 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.000 dark side PR land. And you've kind of zigged 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:21.119 when other people are zagging and become a little 00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:24.199 more of a sort of citizen journalist almost about 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:26.179 the journalists, even though you still do PR 00:35:26.179 --> 00:35:30.099 and you still have brands. I'm wondering. Do 00:35:30.099 --> 00:35:31.940 you attribute the success you're having to the 00:35:31.940 --> 00:35:34.059 fact that it's such an unusual thing that no 00:35:34.059 --> 00:35:37.559 one is doing that? Or to some other thing, just 00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:39.780 like namely your love of inside baseball when 00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:42.380 it comes to the media? Is doing the opposite 00:35:42.380 --> 00:35:45.099 of what most people do helping you stand out 00:35:45.099 --> 00:35:47.380 in this sea of sameness we always talk about? 00:35:49.009 --> 00:35:53.349 I would say yes. You know, I get a lot of pitches 00:35:53.349 --> 00:35:57.289 from comms folks wanting me to interview their 00:35:57.289 --> 00:36:00.610 CEO or executive. I'm like, hey, thanks for the 00:36:00.610 --> 00:36:02.849 pitch. Super interesting. Only interview media. 00:36:03.050 --> 00:36:06.110 Meredith and the media. Right. Like and I'm I'm 00:36:06.110 --> 00:36:08.610 I'm true to sticking to that niche. You've got. 00:36:09.500 --> 00:36:12.380 Axios. You've got PR Week. You've got PR News. 00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:14.880 You've got Provoke. You've got tons of comms 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.860 communications. There's tons of amazing comms 00:36:17.860 --> 00:36:19.900 newsletters, great comms folks that have stuff 00:36:19.900 --> 00:36:22.300 that they're putting out there. And that's important. 00:36:22.619 --> 00:36:25.219 And they're interviewing comms professionals 00:36:25.219 --> 00:36:27.900 and getting the take. And there's a need for 00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:31.239 that. And it's interesting. But less and less 00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:33.320 folks are interviewing journalists. Again, I'm 00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:36.360 not the first and I'm not the last. Can't forget 00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:38.679 folks like Chris Rauch, who launched Talking 00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:41.019 Biz News years and years ago. And it used to 00:36:41.019 --> 00:36:43.179 be the Bible for me when he'd come out with media 00:36:43.179 --> 00:36:46.280 news. And I still keep in touch with him. And 00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:48.860 now he actually covers my news, which is surreal 00:36:48.860 --> 00:36:52.320 and interesting. He's a great guy. But, you know, 00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:56.780 it's it's really unique. And oftentimes reporters 00:36:56.780 --> 00:37:01.289 say to me. Thank you for doing this. This is 00:37:01.289 --> 00:37:04.590 so fun. No one's ever wanted to interview me. 00:37:04.650 --> 00:37:06.150 No one's ever wanted to spotlight me. I'm always 00:37:06.150 --> 00:37:10.789 behind the pen, right? So I think... One, journalists, 00:37:11.050 --> 00:37:12.769 first of all, they see the landscape and they 00:37:12.769 --> 00:37:15.010 understand how important their personal brand 00:37:15.010 --> 00:37:17.010 is. It's the reason Business Insider launched 00:37:17.010 --> 00:37:20.090 a follow button. They recognize we want people 00:37:20.090 --> 00:37:22.409 to follow the voice, follow the talent. It's 00:37:22.409 --> 00:37:24.289 also why you're seeing more multimedia where 00:37:24.289 --> 00:37:25.610 Twitter's like, I'm not going to work on the 00:37:25.610 --> 00:37:27.550 story for nine months and then not shout it for 00:37:27.550 --> 00:37:28.909 the rooftop. I'm going to have to figure out 00:37:28.909 --> 00:37:31.769 how to do the TikTok model. So me being able 00:37:31.769 --> 00:37:34.150 to say like, hey, I want to shine a spotlight. 00:37:34.710 --> 00:37:37.550 on your work on the new column on the new format 00:37:37.550 --> 00:37:39.309 like congrats wall street journal you just hit 00:37:39.309 --> 00:37:42.030 1 million followers on tick tock i reached out 00:37:42.030 --> 00:37:43.769 to julia i'm like it's actually really interesting 00:37:43.769 --> 00:37:45.630 let me know if you can get approval within three 00:37:45.630 --> 00:37:47.389 minutes she's like that was quick they want you 00:37:47.389 --> 00:37:50.210 to cover it like there is this hunger to not 00:37:50.210 --> 00:37:53.110 only put a spotlight on the journalists um but 00:37:53.110 --> 00:37:54.889 on the work that they're doing because as much 00:37:54.889 --> 00:37:56.809 as like you know there's an independent boom 00:37:56.809 --> 00:37:59.610 journalism is so important and we can't lose 00:37:59.610 --> 00:38:01.869 sight of the fact like we can't have more wall 00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:06.199 washington post situations happen we need Wall 00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:08.760 Street Journal. We need New York Times. We need 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:11.420 these legacy folks and all the talented staff 00:38:11.420 --> 00:38:14.500 behind them. But we need to kind of bifurcate 00:38:14.500 --> 00:38:17.559 what's happening with kind of the integrated 00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:20.980 media mix. And what I'm trying to do is shine 00:38:20.980 --> 00:38:23.099 a spotlight on those reporters, their career, 00:38:23.300 --> 00:38:25.599 their hard work, you know, what they're trying 00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:29.239 to do, as well as give the traditional folks 00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:31.860 like a chance to really succeed. So when the 00:38:31.860 --> 00:38:34.380 Fast Company does come out with a by design podcast 00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:37.869 or Business Insider comes out with First Trade, 00:38:38.010 --> 00:38:40.849 which is their new financial newsletter. I want 00:38:40.849 --> 00:38:42.550 folks to know about that because I want them 00:38:42.550 --> 00:38:44.929 to succeed. I want PR folks to succeed and get 00:38:44.929 --> 00:38:49.219 their clients coverage. And I want the... publications 00:38:49.219 --> 00:38:52.920 to be rewarded for continually innovating and 00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:55.320 coming up with new and innovative ways to reach 00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:57.559 their audience so i think why it's working really 00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:00.820 well pr people benefit and are learning and getting 00:39:00.820 --> 00:39:03.800 coverage for their clients and publications are 00:39:03.800 --> 00:39:05.760 getting a spotlight shown on the work and the 00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:07.059 journalists that are doing i think it's more 00:39:07.059 --> 00:39:09.260 important now than ever also by the way like 00:39:09.260 --> 00:39:12.880 just given how fractured the media landscape 00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:17.639 is how shit on the media are right now how fast. 00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:20.000 It's all changing all the time. Like you need 00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:23.380 people who are just focused on that. And so I 00:39:23.380 --> 00:39:26.320 think it's both admirable and timely that you're 00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:28.900 doing this, uh, helpful for lots of folks. So 00:39:28.900 --> 00:39:33.059 very awesome. So I want to kind of parlay what 00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:35.300 we're talking about here into a question about 00:39:35.300 --> 00:39:38.460 what's next for what you're doing. So I know 00:39:38.460 --> 00:39:40.719 you're a year, a year young. Um, you're still, 00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:43.199 uh, what are we in baby, baby years? You're still, 00:39:43.219 --> 00:39:46.980 Oh, you're only 12, 12 months. Um, But but is 00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:49.260 there a longer term play that you have in mind? 00:39:49.300 --> 00:39:51.880 In particular, I'm thinking you would be uniquely 00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:54.099 qualified to do what some folks have begun doing, 00:39:54.219 --> 00:39:56.619 which is to build a community around what you've 00:39:56.619 --> 00:39:59.820 done, like a subscription type model for, you 00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:03.730 know, comms pros. And maybe it's also a. a journalism 00:40:03.730 --> 00:40:06.969 thing where you have, you know, two sort of partitions 00:40:06.969 --> 00:40:09.190 and there's interplay between the two and like 00:40:09.190 --> 00:40:11.750 maybe it becomes a lead sharing thing or a story 00:40:11.750 --> 00:40:14.530 pitching thing or is that at all in your product 00:40:14.530 --> 00:40:19.570 roadmap? And if not, is it now? Yeah, it definitely 00:40:19.570 --> 00:40:22.190 is more and more. It started out as just something 00:40:22.190 --> 00:40:25.190 where I was like. I love the media. I've got 00:40:25.190 --> 00:40:26.989 a lot of friends there. This would be really 00:40:26.989 --> 00:40:29.869 cool to do. It was born out of my own curiosity 00:40:29.869 --> 00:40:32.969 on what Substack was and how to work with it 00:40:32.969 --> 00:40:35.550 and became really good. But now that I've grown 00:40:35.550 --> 00:40:40.070 again, 3 ,500 subscribers, 70 ,000 monthly views 00:40:40.070 --> 00:40:44.639 and really. journalist pitching me, you know, 00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:46.579 hey, do you want to break my news? Or, you know, 00:40:46.579 --> 00:40:48.019 we've got this new podcast. Like, do you want 00:40:48.019 --> 00:40:50.260 to be the one to scoop it? That's super cool. 00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:53.179 And that's been like my like, you know, 360 moment 00:40:53.179 --> 00:40:56.360 where I'm like, I don't think I've realized like 00:40:56.360 --> 00:41:00.159 how. big this has become so quickly. So I have 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.980 thought about ways to monetize. I mean, it's 00:41:02.980 --> 00:41:06.400 largely free. I do have paid subscribers. So 00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:08.780 I've got about like 180 paid subscribers out 00:41:08.780 --> 00:41:10.719 of the lot. I've done the math and I'm like, 00:41:10.780 --> 00:41:13.699 wait a second, I could be making $1 million if 00:41:13.699 --> 00:41:16.679 I did paid. But I think it's kind of part and 00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:19.619 parcel. I'm in hyper growth mode. I need to give 00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:22.280 some of that content for free. Some of it will 00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:27.000 be behind a paywall. I want to always give the 00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:29.500 media interviews for free because I want to encourage 00:41:29.500 --> 00:41:31.300 the shareability. We talked about that being 00:41:31.300 --> 00:41:33.739 an important metric. I wouldn't paywall something 00:41:33.739 --> 00:41:36.219 and be like, hey, now share that with your family 00:41:36.219 --> 00:41:38.539 and friends. Like I talked to Josh Schaefer at 00:41:38.539 --> 00:41:40.880 Barron's and we talked about like the you're 00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:42.739 writing for the fridge. And we talked about the 00:41:42.739 --> 00:41:44.139 importance of like, you know, when you get a 00:41:44.139 --> 00:41:45.880 news article, you know, your mom puts it on the 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:47.840 fridge. Like this is the same thing. People are 00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:50.079 still really excited to get coverage on them. 00:41:50.139 --> 00:41:52.199 They want to share it with others. So the media 00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:54.840 interviews will always be free. Auto paywalled 00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:56.780 after three weeks when like, you know, the kind 00:41:56.780 --> 00:41:59.039 of everything sizzled down. And if PR folks are 00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:00.840 like, hey, I'm interested in that interview with 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:03.139 Steve Bertoni for September. Now you got to pay 00:42:03.139 --> 00:42:06.219 a whopping nine dollars to get access to it. 00:42:06.519 --> 00:42:09.099 But, you know, I think the other thing I'm thinking, 00:42:09.179 --> 00:42:12.280 too, as, you know, more and more media are looking 00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:15.019 to integrate. For example, I'm on Inc. Magazine 00:42:15.019 --> 00:42:17.639 and it links to Meredith in the media. That's 00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:20.059 a huge get for both of us. Right. And I will 00:42:20.059 --> 00:42:24.219 talk about it and cross post about it. And in 00:42:24.219 --> 00:42:28.059 terms of the next steps for that, I think. maybe, 00:42:28.059 --> 00:42:30.400 maybe waiting to have the right conversations. 00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:31.980 Like, you know, I don't want to be like, what's 00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:33.900 my exit strategy. I'm not that big of a deal. 00:42:33.940 --> 00:42:36.039 And I I'm in PR. I still can't do math, but it's 00:42:36.039 --> 00:42:38.480 like, uh, how do I, how do I figure out what, 00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:41.440 you know, operationally this looks like, because 00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:43.980 I would like this to be my full -time gig. I 00:42:43.980 --> 00:42:46.980 would love to exclusively focus on this and, 00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:50.059 you know, have it be paid. I just, I'm one person 00:42:50.059 --> 00:42:52.840 right now outside of hiring a former ad week 00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:55.860 editor, David Cohen, who's incredible and helps 00:42:55.860 --> 00:42:58.920 me with my editing. and gives me that real journalism 00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:01.039 kind of overlay, which I think is really important. 00:43:02.119 --> 00:43:05.820 It's really only me and it's a ton of work in 00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:08.699 addition to my day job. So I think until I can 00:43:08.699 --> 00:43:11.420 kind of free up some of that capital or, you 00:43:11.420 --> 00:43:13.519 know, get an investor who's interested in me 00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:16.780 or, you know, like get some type of proposition 00:43:16.780 --> 00:43:18.599 where it's like, hey, you should think about 00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:20.380 like scaling this and here's how you would do 00:43:20.380 --> 00:43:24.349 it. Right now I'm riding this wave of. one of 00:43:24.349 --> 00:43:26.110 the first folks to be doing something cool and 00:43:26.110 --> 00:43:29.329 unique. I'm having a ton of fun. Um, it's, it's 00:43:29.329 --> 00:43:32.309 bringing me joy and purpose. Um, and I'm truly 00:43:32.309 --> 00:43:35.250 helping people like the amount of emails and 00:43:35.250 --> 00:43:38.150 texts and DMS I get of like, honestly, you're, 00:43:38.150 --> 00:43:40.309 this is awesome, Meredith. Like it's transformative. 00:43:40.469 --> 00:43:43.070 I've landed so much coverage that to me is so 00:43:43.070 --> 00:43:45.449 worth it now that doesn't pay my bills or my 00:43:45.449 --> 00:43:48.010 kids, you know, sports tuition. But, um, for 00:43:48.010 --> 00:43:51.980 now I'm just loving it. And I think, um, Good 00:43:51.980 --> 00:43:54.719 things come to those who wait. And right now 00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:57.519 I'm going to wait for kind of the next big moment 00:43:57.519 --> 00:43:59.639 while still spending the time doing the great 00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:01.619 work. Love it. Fighting the good fight. And just 00:44:01.619 --> 00:44:03.719 for the record, I've seen you more since you've 00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:05.659 kind of ventured out on your own than I ever 00:44:05.659 --> 00:44:07.679 did prior. So you're doing something right. I 00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:11.809 see you all of the time and it's great. I've 00:44:11.809 --> 00:44:14.409 been called indefatigable about six times in 00:44:14.409 --> 00:44:17.570 the past few weeks. I'm like, I'd say so. You 00:44:17.570 --> 00:44:19.730 might have been one of the six. I am very tired 00:44:19.730 --> 00:44:23.110 for what it's worth. And it is a lot. But I mean, 00:44:23.130 --> 00:44:24.489 I think that's another thing. And I think you 00:44:24.489 --> 00:44:26.710 can both agree on this. Perception is really 00:44:26.710 --> 00:44:30.030 important. Right. So you've got to be, you know, 00:44:30.030 --> 00:44:32.590 everywhere and appearing everywhere. And, you 00:44:32.590 --> 00:44:34.869 know, it can seem a little ick or cringe or folks 00:44:34.869 --> 00:44:38.519 like. you got to keep doing it. Like go unabashedly 00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:41.719 all in for me. Like this is my job, right? Like 00:44:41.719 --> 00:44:44.179 if T -Mobile is going to fly me out, which they 00:44:44.179 --> 00:44:46.800 did and pay me money to, you know, speak to their 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:48.739 incredible comms team and make them even smarter 00:44:48.739 --> 00:44:51.019 than they already are. Like I got to be pumping 00:44:51.019 --> 00:44:52.960 that content out and posting about that because 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:55.500 now I want others to reach out to me and do the 00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:59.139 same. So advice for folks is just like. Don't 00:44:59.139 --> 00:45:00.920 worry about what other people are thinking. In 00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:03.159 your former life, when you're like, oh, I don't 00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:04.880 want to be posting this picture of my face or 00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:06.679 this or that, you've got to let all of that go. 00:45:07.059 --> 00:45:10.559 I have a, dare I say, stronger LinkedIn fam community 00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:12.900 of folks that I haven't really ever met in person 00:45:12.900 --> 00:45:16.760 than when I post on Insta or Facebook and I get 00:45:16.760 --> 00:45:19.159 a little bit of that backhanded compliment of 00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:21.619 like, she's doing what? You can't worry about 00:45:21.619 --> 00:45:23.500 that kind of stuff. You've got to keep focused 00:45:23.500 --> 00:45:25.860 on what you're doing. And Becca, to your earlier 00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:28.579 point, put it everywhere because everywhere will 00:45:28.579 --> 00:45:31.079 then place you also like is your goal to impress 00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:33.099 the people you went to high school with or your 00:45:33.099 --> 00:45:36.579 current like co -workers or is your goal to like 00:45:36.579 --> 00:45:39.139 open opportunities for yourself because if it's 00:45:39.139 --> 00:45:41.460 the latter then like yeah sorry they can call 00:45:41.460 --> 00:45:43.849 you cringe all day but like They can call you 00:45:43.849 --> 00:45:45.849 cringe all the way to the bank or whatever that 00:45:45.849 --> 00:45:49.369 term is. Whatever that, yeah, right. No, it's 00:45:49.369 --> 00:45:52.110 so true. And again, like this has become, you 00:45:52.110 --> 00:45:54.369 know, what I hope to be a business and it's going 00:45:54.369 --> 00:45:56.670 to go from what I hope would be just, you know, 00:45:56.670 --> 00:45:59.789 a sub stack newsletter to truly building, you 00:45:59.789 --> 00:46:02.360 know. A media entity, a media empire. So last 00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:04.199 question for me, and then we go do a little rapid 00:46:04.199 --> 00:46:08.360 round thing. I'm just really curious to hear 00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:09.800 what you're going to say about this. I get asked, 00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:12.340 as does we all get asked the same kind of question, 00:46:12.380 --> 00:46:14.840 like to talk to college classes and all that. 00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:19.860 I do it. I love it. And lately, I have been thinking 00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:21.500 about the question of what would I tell somebody 00:46:21.500 --> 00:46:23.980 who said, should I or should I not get into public 00:46:23.980 --> 00:46:26.969 relations or communications? I'm not going to 00:46:26.969 --> 00:46:28.269 answer that question. I'm curious to see what 00:46:28.269 --> 00:46:30.449 you would say to a young college person thinking 00:46:30.449 --> 00:46:33.030 about getting into this space that we've been 00:46:33.030 --> 00:46:36.690 in for so long now. What would you say? Yeah, 00:46:36.690 --> 00:46:41.170 I would say. Yes. I think that communications 00:46:41.170 --> 00:46:45.369 is the epicenter of every single business, no 00:46:45.369 --> 00:46:48.949 matter the industry, if it's gas and oil, financial 00:46:48.949 --> 00:46:52.809 service, healthcare, clear communication is paramount. 00:46:52.869 --> 00:46:55.530 And we've seen it when it's gone really awry 00:46:55.530 --> 00:46:58.650 and hasn't worked. And we've seen when it's worked 00:46:58.650 --> 00:47:02.250 really well. So I think the up and coming generation 00:47:02.250 --> 00:47:06.150 who, you know, wasn't raised on newspapers and 00:47:06.150 --> 00:47:08.590 having inky hands, but rather is seeing everything 00:47:08.590 --> 00:47:11.469 through what we're calling new media, but for 00:47:11.469 --> 00:47:13.989 them is just media, podcasts, subsects, social 00:47:13.989 --> 00:47:19.389 media. I think it's incredibly... interesting 00:47:19.389 --> 00:47:22.389 for folks to get into. I think it's going to 00:47:22.389 --> 00:47:26.190 be even more important. I think the skill set, 00:47:26.369 --> 00:47:29.190 like my daughter is nine years old and will still 00:47:29.190 --> 00:47:32.989 help me using CoverStar, social media, this, 00:47:33.050 --> 00:47:35.469 that, the other. And I talk to her all the time 00:47:35.469 --> 00:47:37.889 about the importance of clear communications 00:47:37.889 --> 00:47:40.289 and being able to do it. Right now, we're working 00:47:40.289 --> 00:47:42.409 on really hard homework where she has to dissect 00:47:42.409 --> 00:47:45.329 thesis. I'm like, this is even hard for me. So 00:47:45.329 --> 00:47:47.349 I think that the communications role, I would 00:47:47.349 --> 00:47:49.599 still encourage. it because I think businesses 00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:52.920 are always going to need a communicator at the 00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:55.579 table to help them through the good, the bad 00:47:55.579 --> 00:47:59.420 and the ugly. I think we've seen, you know, obviously 00:47:59.420 --> 00:48:02.250 everyone saw the Katie Deaton, you know. desperately 00:48:02.250 --> 00:48:05.610 seeking storytellers. And you've got Duolingo 00:48:05.610 --> 00:48:08.710 had like 425 ,000 for like a head of comms role. 00:48:08.769 --> 00:48:10.929 And we're like, oh my God, right? Like it's incredibly 00:48:10.929 --> 00:48:13.570 lucrative and people are paying more and bigger 00:48:13.570 --> 00:48:17.130 bucks to get good comms folks in here. Jobs are 00:48:17.130 --> 00:48:20.110 obviously harder, but I think that I would encourage 00:48:20.110 --> 00:48:23.690 folks to do it, whether they end up going in 00:48:23.690 --> 00:48:26.230 -house agency or on their own, because someone's 00:48:26.230 --> 00:48:27.929 always looking for someone, the amount of inbounds, 00:48:27.969 --> 00:48:30.110 like, hey, I'm looking for kind of a freelance 00:48:30.110 --> 00:48:33.969 publicist. The media engine will always be humming. 00:48:34.090 --> 00:48:36.590 It's just going to look different. And the tools 00:48:36.590 --> 00:48:39.110 that you bring to fix the car are going to look 00:48:39.110 --> 00:48:42.110 different. And this next generation has the advantage 00:48:42.110 --> 00:48:44.250 growing up as digital media. I think there is 00:48:44.250 --> 00:48:47.090 a value to being more of a generalist than a 00:48:47.090 --> 00:48:49.489 specialist these days as well, right? Like having 00:48:49.489 --> 00:48:52.489 a broader tool set rather than just going really 00:48:52.489 --> 00:48:55.650 super deep into like one niche, even within like 00:48:55.650 --> 00:49:00.599 comms. So anyway. Just my quick. addition to 00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:02.780 what you said meredith is that a year or two 00:49:02.780 --> 00:49:04.539 ago i might have been like i don't know if it 00:49:04.539 --> 00:49:06.760 makes sense to get in now because the media ecosystem 00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:10.690 is shrinking so rapidly etc etc but AI has actually 00:49:10.690 --> 00:49:14.349 proven to be kind of a boom for PR and comms 00:49:14.349 --> 00:49:16.469 generally, I think, because there's so much slop 00:49:16.469 --> 00:49:18.789 out there. And to your point about these really 00:49:18.789 --> 00:49:20.690 heavy titles that people are paying a ton of 00:49:20.690 --> 00:49:22.949 money for head of content, head of comms, head 00:49:22.949 --> 00:49:26.289 of, you know, all those areas because they need 00:49:26.289 --> 00:49:29.030 a quality human being overseeing what the machines 00:49:29.030 --> 00:49:30.969 are putting out. Here's my question. Is it they 00:49:30.969 --> 00:49:34.079 need one quality human being? And so like. all 00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:35.820 of the junior roles are going to go away because 00:49:35.820 --> 00:49:38.739 that's what I feel like is happening. That's 00:49:38.739 --> 00:49:40.800 a different topic and it's a big one. It's like 00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:45.840 they're making this one super comms role where 00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:47.559 they're paying a lot and they want the best of 00:49:47.559 --> 00:49:51.360 the best, but that person and AI at the expense 00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:54.179 of... you know the rest of it yeah it's not gonna 00:49:54.179 --> 00:49:55.960 work though because like think about like the 00:49:55.960 --> 00:49:58.800 most senior role you were in back -to -back meetings 00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:01.940 non -stop even if you had ai like when are you 00:50:01.940 --> 00:50:04.679 going through when are you prompting ai spitting 00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:07.639 that out reviewing it fact like i understand 00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:11.559 i actually in one thing like i use ai often because 00:50:11.559 --> 00:50:14.159 as a one -person band like i literally am like 00:50:14.510 --> 00:50:16.210 need to quickly create something, need to pull 00:50:16.210 --> 00:50:19.230 something. I will use it. For example, I pulled 00:50:19.230 --> 00:50:21.289 together like, you know, who are the media that 00:50:21.289 --> 00:50:23.530 would cover this? Half the media, like no longer 00:50:23.530 --> 00:50:25.829 at that outlet or cover that beat. I had to physically 00:50:25.829 --> 00:50:28.469 go, which I always do. And PR, good PR people 00:50:28.469 --> 00:50:30.929 will always go to the website, physically look 00:50:30.929 --> 00:50:33.130 and see when was our last article, go to their 00:50:33.130 --> 00:50:34.590 LinkedIn, which isn't always up to, I'm looking 00:50:34.590 --> 00:50:37.269 at like three different sources before I even 00:50:37.269 --> 00:50:41.219 do the outreach. You know, Alana Samuels at time 00:50:41.219 --> 00:50:45.380 was like, I enlisted in one of the great media 00:50:45.380 --> 00:50:47.500 databases as a health care reporter. She's like, 00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:50.239 I literally only cover, you know, family, this, 00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:52.300 this and this. I don't cover and I get pitched 00:50:52.300 --> 00:50:54.440 on everything because it literally just says. 00:50:55.150 --> 00:50:58.030 healthcare reporter. So I think that you're still 00:50:58.030 --> 00:50:59.670 going to need folks that are going to get in 00:50:59.670 --> 00:51:02.289 there, do the work, make it happen, maybe less, 00:51:02.369 --> 00:51:04.050 but then there's going to be different roles. 00:51:04.469 --> 00:51:06.550 10 years ago, they didn't have a social media 00:51:06.550 --> 00:51:09.530 coordinator. 2010 was like 20, 2009, Twitter 00:51:09.530 --> 00:51:13.059 came out, 2010, Pinterest came out. We didn't 00:51:13.059 --> 00:51:15.480 have social media coordinators. Now there's chief 00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:19.719 content officers. There's chief. I think there's 00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:22.420 just going to be a shift in the title and the 00:51:22.420 --> 00:51:25.400 skill sets. I still think there's a huge role 00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:29.659 for PR. Tons of jobs by way of will be actual 00:51:29.659 --> 00:51:32.559 job. Shit market now. No doubt. One of my posts 00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:35.320 today. Shit market. But I do think it's just 00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:37.079 going to change. And the roles that you didn't 00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:39.000 have before, you now have. And now if they're 00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:42.059 calling them storytellers versus account executives, 00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:44.159 okay, you're a storyteller. I think if you're 00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:46.380 positioned right and you're ahead of kind of, 00:51:46.380 --> 00:51:49.360 or at least with the curve, then like I'm hiring 00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:52.159 like crazy right now. I've been hiring up. storm. 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.199 My biggest challenge is finding quality candidates, 00:51:54.380 --> 00:51:57.579 which I know is unfortunate. Praise Jesus. But 00:51:57.579 --> 00:51:59.679 the market is a little rocky out there. But if 00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:01.179 you're doing it right in your position properly, 00:52:01.340 --> 00:52:04.199 I think for 2026, then it can be fantastic. All 00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:06.860 right. Enough about me, Becca. It's on to the 00:52:06.860 --> 00:52:09.159 most fascinating part of our show. Rapid fire. 00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:13.199 Are you ready for some questions? You get to 00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:15.760 erase one corporate buzzword from existence. 00:52:15.940 --> 00:52:22.429 What is it? Unprecedented. Good one. Nice. Yeah. 00:52:22.570 --> 00:52:26.929 Okay. It's just trauma from 2020. Yes. And like 00:52:26.929 --> 00:52:30.150 AI, like the last five years is unprecedented. 00:52:30.329 --> 00:52:33.809 It is unprecedented times. You're about to give 00:52:33.809 --> 00:52:37.489 a presentation in front of 50 ,000 people. What 00:52:37.489 --> 00:52:44.719 song do you walk out on the stage to? I live 00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:48.300 for the applause, applause, applause. Lady Gaga, 00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:50.639 I live for the applause, applause. I get down 00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:52.920 with that. I like it. I don't think anybody's 00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:55.559 chosen that before. She's the first guest that's 00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:59.539 actually sung the song. That's true. Yeah. Walk 00:52:59.539 --> 00:53:01.760 the walk, sing the song. Gold stars for you. 00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:07.820 If you had to do a TED Talk on anything but journalism, 00:53:08.019 --> 00:53:11.559 communications, PR, what would the topic be? 00:53:16.460 --> 00:53:18.599 The importance of playing sports when you're 00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:21.239 younger. I just think it's transformative. I 00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:24.440 think it teaches you discipline, collaboration, 00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:27.599 creativity, camaraderie, and that helps you in 00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:31.500 all aspects of your life. My last question before 00:53:31.500 --> 00:53:34.699 I hand it over to Perry's unhinged madness is 00:53:34.699 --> 00:53:36.900 you get to use one emoji for the rest of your 00:53:36.900 --> 00:53:43.880 life. Which emoji? Probably the tilted, like 00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:46.139 hysterically crying one because you can't take 00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:48.179 it too seriously. Crying or laughing. This is 00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:51.239 like a Rorschach test. Like crying, laughing, 00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:54.420 crying, laughing. Yeah, I've made mistakes a 00:53:54.420 --> 00:53:57.420 few times, but the side crying, laughing, sobbing 00:53:57.420 --> 00:54:01.519 forward is. I'm going to give the ridiculous 00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:03.679 question of the day. And I'm actually going to 00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:05.539 go to the throwback question because I'm genuinely 00:54:05.539 --> 00:54:08.179 curious, Meredith, what you would say. I think 00:54:08.179 --> 00:54:10.159 I know what your answer is going to be. Becca, 00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:12.039 you might have a guess too, but. I'm going to 00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:13.599 ask the question now. Let's see if I'm right. 00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:17.800 All right. You have to have hiccups around the 00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:20.679 clock for six months straight. You cannot avoid 00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:22.659 them. No matter what you do, you will be sleeping 00:54:22.659 --> 00:54:24.800 with hiccups. You'll shower with hiccups. You 00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:26.880 will do workouts with hiccups, hiccups, hiccups, 00:54:26.900 --> 00:54:28.900 hiccups. Six months. Can't get rid of them. Or 00:54:28.900 --> 00:54:31.239 to alleviate this, you have to chop off your 00:54:31.239 --> 00:54:34.119 pinky. Do you keep the six months of hiccups 00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:42.159 around the clock or do you sever the pinky? I 00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:44.079 could have never predicted that question in a 00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:49.139 million years. What a crazy. It's kind of like, 00:54:49.139 --> 00:54:53.000 do you, do you, it's like a few seconds. I probably 00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:55.980 would do the hiccups for six months because you 00:54:55.980 --> 00:54:59.860 know, like you, there's a lot of challenges and 00:54:59.860 --> 00:55:01.940 hard times that you're going to go through, but 00:55:01.940 --> 00:55:03.880 it's temporary and it's all about your mindset 00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:06.380 and getting through. Whereas your pinky, that's 00:55:06.380 --> 00:55:09.019 going to be forever. And it's going to hamper 00:55:09.019 --> 00:55:13.369 my ability to. cook for my family, go skiing 00:55:13.369 --> 00:55:17.329 with my kids, be able to type and make a living. 00:55:17.510 --> 00:55:21.449 So I think that people are so focused on vanity 00:55:21.449 --> 00:55:25.130 and what will people think if I'm pinkiless with 00:55:25.130 --> 00:55:28.449 whatever else. But I think that I would endure 00:55:28.449 --> 00:55:32.690 the hiccups, figure out ways to have conversations 00:55:32.690 --> 00:55:36.170 with folks on why I have the hiccups and kind 00:55:36.170 --> 00:55:38.750 of normalize the conversation. Normalizing hiccups, 00:55:38.769 --> 00:55:42.710 ladies and gentlemen. And then kind of get through 00:55:42.710 --> 00:55:46.289 it and laugh about it afterwards. I'm actually 00:55:46.289 --> 00:55:47.750 very shocked. I thought for sure you were going 00:55:47.750 --> 00:55:50.809 to chop your pinky off. Because you seem like 00:55:50.809 --> 00:55:52.550 you just like you want to get this shit over 00:55:52.550 --> 00:55:54.570 with, like get it done. I thought you would go 00:55:54.570 --> 00:55:57.050 with the severing of the pinky. I'm relieved, 00:55:57.150 --> 00:55:59.650 though, because there's no chance in a million 00:55:59.650 --> 00:56:01.650 years I would chop my pinky off or any digit 00:56:01.650 --> 00:56:03.969 ever, ever, ever. I would do hiccups for a year 00:56:03.969 --> 00:56:07.289 if I had to to keep my digits. Becca, on the 00:56:07.289 --> 00:56:09.389 other hand, has a different take on that. I would. 00:56:09.739 --> 00:56:15.219 Chop, chop. We chop it. Yeah. That's a hard question. 00:56:15.260 --> 00:56:18.280 Cause like the, the, the, the Aries firstborn 00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:20.380 daughter born and raised in New Jersey definitely 00:56:20.380 --> 00:56:23.619 wants to Tony Soprano chop it and move on with 00:56:23.619 --> 00:56:26.139 my life. But I feel like I've gotten so much 00:56:26.139 --> 00:56:28.860 more deep and philosophical that I'm kind of 00:56:28.860 --> 00:56:30.400 like, well, wait a second. Right. Like, cause 00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:33.260 I've gone through so many like ups and downs 00:56:33.260 --> 00:56:37.800 where I'm like, okay, what's the lesson. I get 00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:40.860 it now. Right. Like, and I just feel like everything's 00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:44.320 kind of a test. So for me, like, I think I would 00:56:44.320 --> 00:56:47.900 want to try to barrel through the hiccups knowing 00:56:47.900 --> 00:56:50.780 that like, eventually they're gone, but the pinky's 00:56:50.780 --> 00:56:54.159 gone forever. And just to be fair, I said this 00:56:54.159 --> 00:56:56.400 to Becca before, but I would hate to be around 00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:58.719 someone that like, if my wife had hiccups for 00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:00.920 six months, I'd be like, I think I'm moving out 00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:03.360 for several months because I cannot stand being 00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:06.300 in the midst of you. There's that. Kudos to you. 00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:09.019 All right. I think that concludes the program. 00:57:09.219 --> 00:57:11.039 Thanks so much for coming on, Meredith. We had 00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:12.599 a great time. Where can people find you if they 00:57:12.599 --> 00:57:16.340 want to follow along, participate, pitch you? 00:57:16.420 --> 00:57:19.380 Where can they find you? Absolutely. You can 00:57:19.380 --> 00:57:22.400 follow me on Meredith in the Media on Substack. 00:57:22.820 --> 00:57:25.780 Catch me on LinkedIn and follow my byline on 00:57:25.780 --> 00:57:28.280 Inc. Magazine. Let's go. All right, buddy. Thanks 00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:28.659 for coming on.