Would you take $20 million, Brooke, except every
time you laugh from now on, you laugh exactly
like a donkey. As loud as a donkey. Totally fine.
Totally fine. That's funny. Oh, my God. She is
so rich. She just has this weird. laugh yeah
but look at her jewelry look at her clothes who's
the donkey now welcome to under embargo the podcast
that says the quiet part out loud about pr communications
and the chaos in between Hosted by two of LinkedIn's
most connected comms pros, Becca Chambers, a
no -BS corporate comms exec with raging ADHD,
and Pari Hedrick, founder of tech PR firm Crackle
PR. This show brings it all. Real talk, sharp
insights, and the kind of industry truths they
don't put in press releases. No fluff, no filters,
no f***s given. This is Under Embargo. Let's
get into it. Hello, and welcome to today's episode
of the Under Embargo podcast. I am your host,
Becca Chambers, CMO of Scale Venture Partners,
and I am joined as always by my co -host, Perry
Hedrick, founder of Crackle PR. Hello. Today,
we are welcoming somebody who I think many of
you listening probably know because she is one
of the most prolific communications recruiters
out there. For the past 20 years, Brooke has
been recruiting PR and comms professionals for
tech companies, for startups, for PR agencies,
pretty much anywhere that comms person is, Brooke
is there. And I am happy to say that she's even
working with me right now to help me find the
perfect person to join my team. So I'm really
excited to bring Brooke to the show. today. Welcome
Brooke Kruger, founder of Casey Partners. Hi,
thanks for having me. All right. So I'm going
to kick off with just the most obvious question
that I know is on every single person's mind
who is listening and how is the comms job market
these days and is it getting better? Great question.
So the good news, it is getting better. We've
been in a kind of standstill since probably the
summer, fall of 2022 after the big boom during
the COVID years. It has been really steady since
I would say for about a year. It's been steady
hiring. And right now we're seeing more and more
positions opening up. We're seeing more candidates
leave jobs and take new jobs, which means their
positions will open up. And then we're also seeing
an opportunity for a lot of people to consult
right now because there's a lot of business to
go around. So why, why, why, why, why, why are
things going so well? Explain. Well, we don't
going so well, we don't want to be like over
eager, but going well, I think is a good way
to put it. I think that for so long, these positions,
you know, for the past two years have been on
hold. And finally, you know, teams have been
told to do more. more with less and headcount
will, you know, be around the corner and it's
finally around the corner. So companies are feeling
more confident to open up headcount and candidates
are feeling more confident to take risk and leave
their current roles. For a while, people didn't
even want to leave their current role because,
you know, they could have been miserable in the
known, but the unknown was even trickier. Though
I have heard about this like job hugging phenomenon
people are talking about now, which is the opposite
of quite quitting, which is just hanging on to
a shitty job, doing whatever you need to do to
like make sure you don't get laid off in the
current situation, I guess. because of all of
the insecurity but you're saying that is happening
too there are candidates who are like you know
what i've been here for a while i have good benefits
i have good equity i'm not happy at all but making
a change is just too um disruptive right now
for my life i think there is a contributing factor
to the robustness if we can use that word for
the comms market and that is the bouquet that
has been thrown at pr and communications via
ai And by that, I mean the importance of earned
media in delivering answers on LLMs like ChachiDBT.
I just wrote today, I was quoting the guy from
Gregory Gallant of MuckRack, the CEO. He put
out a study that said more than 89 % of links
cited from AI come from earned media, according
to this big report they put out. That's an incredible.
statistic and incredibly beneficial for those
of us in PR. And recent earned media at that
parry. So what you earned a year ago is not what's
ranking you in the LLMs. I just wanted to clarify
because to your point, that makes timely communications
ever more important. It's ongoing. So are you
hearing or seeing anything along those lines,
Brooke, when you look at the comms market writ
large? Well, I mean, that's an interesting point.
I mean, there are AI is going to take away some
jobs in communications because of if I think
of what I did when I started on the PR agency
side, AI would be so helpful in writing and tracking
coverage and things like that. But then people
using AI to their benefit is also happening.
And then earned media has never been more important.
However, the shrinking pool of journalists makes
it. in publications makes it so much harder to
get that earned media. So I don't know if you
guys feel this way. But when I see, you know,
my candidates and clients, and I see these like
major placements, I'm just I'm like, so proud
for them. Because I think like how hard that
must have been to get that story in today's climate.
Yeah, there is no doubt that there is a vanishing
number of the marquee sort of publications that
we've all come to love. And most of the people
that we as opposed to build relationships with,
have been fired, laid off, switched papers, switched
publications over and over and over again. So
PR teams literally have to reinvent relationships
over and over and over. And against that backdrop,
there's a whole new swath of different outlets
and mediums that we have to be proficient, if
not excellent in now, including podcasts and
Substack, like Beehive and all this kind of stuff.
So I would argue that there's... There's probably
more people publishing right now than ever before,
but it's just so atomized and little tiny pockets
across the ecosystem. So it makes it a lot more
work, a lot more challenging to infiltrate all
of these places. And it's a different muscle,
right? As the media landscape is adapting and,
to your point, atomizing all over, we all have
to learn how we then... pitch those stories to
those people is it one -to -one is it they're
finding you through your thought leadership on
social media which is definitely a thing now
right like is it um uh podcast publicity like
i don't know what the answer is but i know that
it's changing and i know that it's probably making
what is valuable in communications professionals
different so actually that is a question for
brooke two questions Are hiring managers changing
what they're looking for in general as far as
specific skills? And then are the employees or
the comms leaders that you're talking to, are
they kind of targeting different types of roles
as things are changing? So to answer the first
question, yes, things are changing. The skill
set is changing. It's getting bigger. If you
have news, it's now how many different ways can
we skin a cat? How many different ways can we
get this out there? Are we going to try to get
earned media? Are we going to do thought leadership?
Are we going to do a podcast? Are we going to
do a video? How are we going to get that? So
I think. As a communications professional, you
need to be able to always upping your skills
in your game and you need to be a good storyteller
and know how to tell that story and where it's
going to resonate. Hiring managers are also a
couple trends or what I'm seeing in new searches
I'm doing, creativity, curiosity, storytelling.
You know, storytelling has always been there,
but, you know, you need to be more creative telling
it. And then the second part of your question
was are you repeat that candidates themselves?
Yeah. Are they changing their. the way that they
are either what they're targeting or how they're
presenting themselves, given the changing? So
I think, yes, I think it's always good to be
evolving and changing. I think when I left PR,
it was 2005 and there were no blogs really to
pitch. So like my skill set in 2005 is completely
different than the comms person of today. So
I think candidates, yes, they need to always
be upping their game and be interested. And again,
I mean, it goes back to simple things, storytelling,
creativity, curiosity. One thing I hear from
hiring managers frequently now is like, I don't
want someone with the same playbook that thinks
it's going to work for every single company they've
been to. And so, which is, I mean, so honest
and simple. Yes. I'm so relieved to hear that
because it used to be the opposite where like
you went in and they would be like, so. how have
you done X, Y, and Z? And it's like, well, this
is how I've done it, but that doesn't really
apply to your scenario. It needs to be totally
different because you can't just rinse and repeat
if you go somewhere else. So I actually think
that's refreshing to hear that hiring managers
are looking for somebody who can think outside
of the playbook. Yes, I do too. But the other
thing, those questions are still important in
the interview process because the other thing
I'm hiring managers want to know, like when,
what happened when, when the problem happened,
were you the call? And what did you do to answer
it? And so also thinking quick on your feet and
being able to, you know, you always have to be
good at strategy, but there is no room now for
not executing. A comms leader needs to be able
to pick up the phone and execute. So a couple
of things about this. This is fascinating. So
I would have thought you would have said when
it comes to what the hiring managers are looking
for and what the candidates themselves are. presenting
is is ai a big piece of ai so like we're looking
for ai proficient people that know how to streamline
workflows and how to make shorter work of you
know all these redundant repetitive tasks that
would be one thing because everybody's looking
to cut head count and maximize revenue per employee
on the hiring side and then from the job candidate
standpoint everybody i know just about is trying
to you know, pop up their chest a little bit
on the AI front saying like, hey, I put the work
in, I put the time in. Yes, we're all learning,
but I'm really trying actively to do X, Y, and
Z to make myself look marketable for the future,
to future -proof myself. You're not seeing the
AI piece being bandied about? I have a different
outlook on that. I mean, if you're not using
AI to improve your job right now, like that is,
I mean, that's a mistake. you know, it's like
saying, you know, Excel, you know, you need to
know chat GPT. You need to know Excel. That is
the, we, the, it is moving so quickly that the
playing field has completely changed. Everyone
should be using AI in their job, in their daily
life, you know, to do better. So I think, you
know, what you're saying is table six, but candidates
who can. who can market themselves as being even
a more proven expert? Yes, but I think it's expected
that you know how to use AI and you're constantly
trying to improve efficiency in your work and
the work around you. Sorry, Becca, I thought
on the hiring side, it would be even more pronounced
just because everybody's trying to get more efficient
and do more with fewer people. I thought that
would be a big ask. And you're not seeing that,
it sounds like. I think it's just expected. Huh,
okay. That is interesting, actually, especially
because I don't think everybody I mean, most
of the people that I work with and in my like
professional networks are using AI, but I don't
think everybody is using it in their everyday
job. You know, like I don't think it's not yet.
Not yet. No, I know. But that's why I'm like
Perry. I'm surprised if it's not like one of
the top questions that. hiring managers are asking
of people is like how are you applying ai to
your job and how is it making it better because
even if it's just like you know i use chat gpt
for research or whatever like at least you're
like showing that you're moving i mean that's
a fair question but i um i again i just go back
to being it's so expected in my at my son's high
school um uh back to school night for spanish
the spanish teacher said we are not doing any
we're never grading homework or doing tests at
home everything graded will be in class because
otherwise you would just use ai so they are fully
expecting everybody to be using ai for things
and i felt like that was a very um interesting
statement um because it's just expected super
interesting when you see candidates come in that
aren't talking about AI as part of their sort
of package they put forth. Do you counsel them
to include something like that? Or again, it
just sounds like to you, this is expected. I
would counsel everyone to say, yes, this needs
to be your daily work. And then I also, if you
do have the creative ways you're using AI, I
think that would be something to elaborate. But
if you're using AI to edit your work, I mean.
You still, you know, that's not, I think, a selling
point. I think everyone should be using that.
Yeah, I'm thinking more like share a voice and
like share a voice on LLMs and like all the stuff.
Yeah, I mean, again, that stuff, absolutely.
And if you can market yourself in that, but I
also think we're turning where it's expected.
Can I ask one more thing about the skill sets?
So can you break down kind of what the universe
of candidates you deal with is? comms what's
the percentage of like pr like how does it what's
the mix okay for yes for me so i i place you
know top comms talent we work with agencies corporations
startups and bc firms most of our positions are
pre -post ipo high growth companies whether that's
the head of comms chief comms officer um head
of corporate communications and then the positions
that layer up into those roles So, for example,
I worked with the Instacart CCO and we placed
30 people on their comms team to build that out
during the up into COVID. But I also do kind
of one off positions where it's like I had a
comms at an early stage company. And then I also
work with venture firms like Becca at Scale Ventures
to find them a comms hire as well. And I still
work with corporations as well to build out their
comms team. But the most of my candidate level
are mid to senior level. Got it. And so I have
been arguing for a long while. And Becca knows
this. She reads my constant ranting on LinkedIn.
I think that most organizations, especially B2B
organizations, once they get over a certain threshold
of revenue, whether it's 10 million or 15 million,
whatever it is, once you get to a certain point,
I think it's. incumbent upon those companies
to have some kind of a chief communications officer
title. For sure, just like that's it. And a lot
of companies are still resistant to that, relying
too heavily on marketing in my estimation. So
I guess what I'm just looking for you to say
is, what are you seeing? Are you seeing more
of a trend toward people embracing what I'm talking
about and advocating for? Or do you still see
companies actively pushing back and trying to
throw everything under the marketing bucket?
Um, I see both. I do think communications has
a seat at the table now more than ever. And I
think most companies are doing a full communications
track that reports into the, the C suite or C
level, uh, CEO. Then there are companies that
still have the comps position under marketing.
Now this, this is not, we're not talking about
venture. We're talking about corporations or,
you know, earlier stage companies pre pre post
IPO, but many are. having comms be a separate
loop and that is recognized and um you know that's
that's what candidates essentially want however
i have placed many candidates under a great cmo
and it is it works out so i would say it just
depends on who the who the marketing organization
is who's running it and if if if comms is valued
there as well i feel like the The value that
communications brings has always been extreme,
but now that it's becoming more fragmented and
we just have to be in more places, I do think
it continues to make less sense to have comms
report into marketing. I say that as head of
marketing, but that's because in venture, like
we are not running demand gen programs, right?
We are brand content. PR events. It is that stuff
that I would argue, let's call it corporate marketing,
should be a separate wing because they are not
trying to drive in -quarter revenue. They are
storytelling, they are changing perceptions,
they are finding where we need to be and making
sure we are in those places. And if those people
are reporting to a head of marketing who has
revenue, quota or mql quotas then then what like
how how does the comms person do their job if
their goals have nothing to do with the goals
of the organization that they serve so i'm happy
to hear that you are seeing the comms loop starting
to become its own thing but i am still sad about
the state of communications rolling into marketing
myself I agree with everything you're saying.
And I do, you know, more and more comms is reporting
it to the CEO. I had a conversation with a, like
a series E company yesterday afternoon, and they
were looking for a head of comms and they're
like, well, then it's going to report. We think
it's going to report in the marketing, the head
of marketing who reports to the COO, who reports
to the CEO. And I said, I don't think that is
a good sell, you know, that the three lines away
from the CEO. um it doesn't make sense and so
well you can't do your job Like you just can't,
like you cannot have the access that you need,
the understanding, the nuance, everything. If
you are a senior level communications leader
who is expected to do the things a senior level
communications leader is expected to do. And
in my mind, I was just thinking, okay, there's
a crisis. So then they called the CMO, then the
CMO calls the CMO, then the CMO. It's like a
game of telephone. It gets sillier when you look
at the longevity math. So the average tenure
for a CMO is 18 months. I know. 18 months. Like
by the time you learn the actual company inside
and out, you're already like at six months. And
then you get, you know, maybe another year if
you're lucky and according to the averages. And
I think that, I don't know what the number is
for the head of comms or whatever, but I would
argue that it's probably a lot longer than that.
I think so. For sure. And there are amazing CMOs,
people I've placed candidates as head of comms
at, you know. Series C, D, E companies are reporting
to the CMO and it works out. It really does depend
upon the person and how the CMO values communications
and if they will let the head of comms stay in
their own lane. So there's always exceptions,
but the preferred method for me from candidates,
from companies is the comms is a separate track.
Yeah. If, if it reports into marketing, that's
fine. As to your point, the marketing leader
has to understand what comms is and what comms
is not and let the comms leader do their job.
Like, don't be like, I'm the, I'm the head of
marketing. So I'm going to tell comms leader
how to do their job. It's like what you're, you're
focused on, you know. It's a ban, Jen. I've had
a couple candidates, a trend I've heard in the
last couple of weeks is, because I do a lot of
these head of comms jobs with early stage companies,
and they're like, I don't want to spend my day
having to educate somebody what comms actually
does. I want to be able to do the actual comms
work. And I can put up with a lot, because as
you guys probably know, we're kind of in this
big boss era of not a lot of culture. Have you
guys heard of the... Nine, nine, six. Yeah. You
know, where people are. It's back. It's back.
You could tell the audience what nine, nine,
six is in case they are unaware. Nine, nine,
six is the principle that you would work nine
to nine, six days a week. And when I do new business
screens, I actually ask my potential clients
if they operate in that model. And, you know.
The answer, hopefully, is no, we don't. We work
really hard. We don't do that. So because that's
not an attractive thing to candidates right now.
Yeah. We go with 997 around here. No breaks,
no lunch. One thing that I've been seeing, noticing,
whatever, is a proliferation of chief of staff
roles that sound an awful lot like a communications
leader, right? Without the kind of. PR element.
It's not that they don't have that. It's just
that it's not the focus, but they are this right
hand to the CEO to the point that they are able
to act as a strategic advisor, but then also
be the person who is telling them what they need
to say, where they need to say it. And I'm not
saying that... chief of staff should run a comms
organization. I'm more thinking, should comms
leaders be looking at chief of staff roles if
they want to go to the C -suite and not have
to deal with this whole marketing comms? Well,
yeah. And what's the pay differential? I'm curious
about that. That's interesting. That is a good
question. I think that there are some excellent
chief of staffs and I've worked with two of them
and they were my contacts in the hire as almost
served as a hiring manager, you know, kind of
protecting their CEO. you're running the process
and pulling the ceo in and they were great and
they will work in parallel with the head of comms
and i think i'm thinking of two in my mind who
are amazing amazing and that the head of comms
i placed there are so lucky that they get to
work in parallel but there are other chief of
staffs um i'm sure that are you know just it's
it's it's you know butting heads or Exactly.
I mean, you know, I have been told I've never
placed a chief of staff, but I've been told it's
like the McKenzie Bain model. You know, you're
a consultant and you become a chief of staff,
which could work and it could. But what if you're
the CEO who is a modern CEO who now sees I need
to build my brand online, right? While I need
to manage my internal. brand and messaging and
whatever you're gonna your chief of staff is
who you're gonna rely on for that you're not
gonna go two levels down to your comms person
to say hey do this thing when you have the person
who's already right there i feel like you could
i don't know i just think that there is this
kind of it's not just operational right it's
like so much more than operational that i think
that I just think that it's a it's a strong next
step for a lot of communications leaders. And
I continue to tell when I read the job descriptions,
I'm like, this does not sound like the chief
of staff from 10 years ago. So, no, I don't think
so at all. And I also think like, I mean, I love
a pivot, like a strong comms person pivoting
to a chief of staff role. based on your comment
before would be great. I don't know the discrepancy
or the differences in pay, but I don't think
that's a bad pivot if you're looking to take
a little break from the stressful comms world.
Not that the chief of staff would be less stressful,
but - Pay is a great topic to pivot because I
wanted to ask you, I think that the comms - pay
pendulum swung very high and has swung way back.
And now maybe there's a correction. What are
you seeing as far as like where com salaries
are landing these days? So I am seeing a correction
in the market. They were very high and they swung
way low and now they're coming back. There's
most companies, um, and let's talk about, you
know, uh, non -agency roles. Uh, most companies
offer base plus equity bonuses have gone away.
There are. companies that do offer bonuses um
some companies uh almost you know you could also
like play with the comp so you can have um you
know keep the base salary down and then add a
bonus that's all but guaranteed but most salaries
right now are starting to shift back now there
are you know, for series C, D, E companies I
deal with, you know, there's set ranges. There's
not much flexibility. So for people, you know,
some people will have to take a pay cut to take
those jobs, but they will hopefully pick that
up in equity. And then some people are at bigger
companies that have, you know, more perks and
more bonus plan and they're, you know, they can
stay up with the golden handcuffs. Are the big
company salaries going down or are they kind
of remaining what they have been the past few
years? They're kind of remaining what they have.
I think their bonuses may have been lower for
a while. Because I know that in like smaller
tech companies, it was almost like it wasn't
just the salaries got lower. They just got rid
of the senior leadership so that like everybody
had a lower salary because they just got rid
of the higher paid people, which is what I saw
for the past couple of years. But kind of seems
like we're starting to see senior leadership
hired again. Are those senior leaders being hired
at? rates that you think would have been comparable
three years ago? I think it would have been rates
that would be, I look like kind of before COVID
because that was a boom. So I think the rates
would have been comfortable before COVID. I think
there was a lot of salary inflation during those,
those, you know, busy years to try to land people
and build teams. And comms is still the least
paid function in marketing. Do we agree with
that? I think that's probably true. I mean, you
know, it could be. It just depends on the organization.
Do we agree it should be that way? Hell no. Do
we agree that it should not be that way? I don't
like to make those, you know, those big blanket
statements because there's always exceptions
in different companies. And analyst relations
pays a ton compared to many marketing roles.
And that usually falls within the communications
bucket. I still see social media being paid like
pennies on the dollar when it's like, we are,
this is the most important channel for a lot
of you. And you're like, let's just get the intern.
Right. Yeah. With that strategy. Cause you know,
the social media positions tend to hire younger
because they've kind of grown up in. the social
media era versus us dinosaurs. I guess. But now
the like younger social people that they're 35,
like they were, they, you know, like real salaries
too. Yeah. I was just going to ask you something
on that. Of course, I forgot what I was going
to say. Social media brings up a LinkedIn topic
for me. So, so, you know, Becca and I spend a
lot of time on LinkedIn. I know you probably
do for your job, but in a different way. You
use it for a much more of a utilitarian function
and less of a personal branding function. But
to what extent have you seen or do you see candidates
who are in the comms world using LinkedIn to
sort of improve their own stock on the marketplace,
essentially? Are you seeing any premium attached
to people who are doing a great job on that platform
in particular or other platforms generally? Yes.
So I love LinkedIn. I think everybody should
be on LinkedIn. I think everyone's job seeking
or not. Their LinkedIn needs to be up to date.
It needs to be tracked. You always want to have
a resume ready and a LinkedIn that tracks to
that. I think there are certain people who are
going to be more comfortable posting on LinkedIn,
that leadership, including the three of us. And
there's going to be other people who just that's
just not their thing. And I totally respect that.
How they can stay active on LinkedIn would be
too common and to like post and just be an active
user. i also always advise people to constantly
be tweaking their linkedin tweaking their bio
tweaking their words you know it's a um a way
to present yourself um you know make sure you
have a good headshot if you don't want to hire
a professional photographer you could Send some
pictures to AI for $20 and get one. Make sure
you have a good banner behind your LinkedIn profile.
And I think, you know, having all that stuff
and being active on LinkedIn will have you present
well. But I do think if you are interviewing
at a job, you should expect the hiring manager
to be going through your LinkedIn. So whatever
you are putting out there represents you. If
it looks like you've been asleep for five or
six years, I don't think that's a good look either.
When you talk about tweaking your profile, do
you mean, is it important algorithmically? In
other words, if you're tweaking your profile.
Yes, it's important algorithmically. In my data,
from my mind, I have lots of times when I reach
out to a candidate and they say, that's so interesting.
I just updated my LinkedIn, which means you appeared
in a search for me. I always recommend people
do that. My data that I collect from 20 years
of reaching out to comms candidates, but I do,
you know, you, you want to be active on LinkedIn.
That's like, similarly, when you post and comment,
you are telling LinkedIn, hi, I'm here, I'm awake.
And so it shows, I think like when I don't comment
a lot, but I'll go and post. my reach is totally
impacted because I really do think it's like
priming the pump, right? You're telling LinkedIn,
Hey, I'm here. pay attention to me, I'm active.
So if you make those tweaks to your profile,
it's telling the recruiters this person wants
to be hired, right? Because they are actively
changing it. What's the downside? Like even if
you just went and like rearranged the way that
you're - I never thought about tweaking your
profile as a way to wake up the algorithm. That's
never entered my mind and largely because I'm
secure in my profession, I don't really have
to get a job. But what great advice for someone
who's considering making a switch or even just
passively looking. But, but I do want to say
like, some people are not comfortable doing thought
leadership and that is fine. You know, self -promotion,
you know, that's fine if you don't want to do
that, but you can still be active on LinkedIn.
And I was just going to say, this is just my
data. And obviously it's skewed differently than
other people's because I do brand building on
LinkedIn. But if you go look at how I'm discovered
on LinkedIn. less than 1 % is through search.
So if people are looking for a communications
leader or whatever, less than 1 % of the people
who find me are doing it through a search bar.
People are finding me, it's like 30 % through
comments. So me commenting on other people, that's
how they are ending up landing on my profile.
And then obviously my posting and then other
people sharing my posts and whatever, which is
really like, okay, take the posting out of it.
30 % of my views come from just comments, people
seeing my comments. So to your point, you don't
want to be a thought leader. Fine. You do have
a perspective. Go start commenting on people's
posts because you will be more discoverable.
If you're looking for a job that will like help
people land on your profile. And they'll be like,
not only do I see what this person, what their
professional experience is, I also can get a
sense of who they are because I can read what.
their voice sounds like in their comments or
what their perspective is, or if they have a
good idea and blah, blah, blah. So I'm with you.
I think if, even if you don't want to post on
LinkedIn, go just start commenting because you
will be way more discoverable. And if you're
looking for opportunities, whether it's a job
or something else, like show up. For all those
people listening to this podcast right now, it's
critically important that you spend most of your
time commenting on my post. That's how you really
juice the algorithm. That is the secret to success.
It is, 100%. Yeah, so yeah, no, I'm a huge fan
of LinkedIn. I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn.
I think it's a great tool. I was an early user
and I would encourage everyone to constantly
update, tweak their LinkedIn. I actually pitched
Reid Hoffman in the very earliest, like I think
maybe the first year or second year of LinkedIn's
existence, pitched him twice with my then team
at Shift Communications in San Francisco. So
I was super, super early on and I just did not
get what the power or what the vision was of
LinkedIn. We didn't win. We came in second place
twice and I deserved to come in second place
because I really, it was a glorified Rolodex
to me and I just, I couldn't see the larger.
plan and uh boy boy has that changed and now
i'm probably one of the biggest evangelists on
the planet for this thing yeah crazy i mean it
was a rolodex for a long time like that is what
it was boring as hell do you remember you used
to go to restaurants my friend who was in sales
said he would go to like restaurants and they'd
have like a a fishbowl they'd do a drawing with
business cards and he used to like take take
the business cards and that's how he got sales
leads oh my god modernized um you know the rolodex
We had a competition at Shift Communications
to try to get the most connections. And I remember
I was the first person to get to 500. I was like,
yes, I have 500 movers and shakers I'm connected
to in Silicon Valley, baby. And now I can't take
any more connections because 35 ,000 is the limit.
And I maxed out like five years. That's amazing.
That's amazing. What are you going to do if you
find someone really good that wants to connect
with you? I will delete people who are kind of
dead weight in my feed. I go through and prune
that every now and then. I haven't hit mine yet.
I haven't hit mine either. But it's good to know,
Becca, we know that we're going to be cut off.
And you know what's so annoying about that, just
to go off on a little tangent, is like every
time someone sends me a connection request and
I'm maxed out, I have to be like. I'm sorry,
I cannot accept your connection request. Unfortunately,
LinkedIn limits me to 35. Can't they just automatically
do that so I don't have to do that? Or worse,
if I want to ignore the people, that's worse.
Why am I in that situation? You cut me off. Can
you please explain for me? You know what? Becca
has some contacts at LinkedIn. No, no, no. I
have a theory. LinkedIn hates its users. That's
why Perry, this is my theory. And if you ask
me or any of the content creators on LinkedIn,
we've got like side chats going where we all
come and gripe about X, Y, or Z. And the conclusion
we always come to is LinkedIn hates its content
creators. So here we are. I don't think I defend
LinkedIn. I don't think that's true, but well,
they are monetizing. not content creators. They
are paying non -LinkedIn users to come to LinkedIn
and use LinkedIn. Why not pay your content creators
who have been here for years? Now, I fully agree
with that. And I know this is a little far afield
from what we were talking about initially, but
I will say though they do not. do transactional
stuff by paying people like me, I will say that
I've enjoyed millions and millions and millions
of dollars of revenue derived from my presence
on this platform. So is it direct? No, but -
Absolutely. But man, what a correlation. Absolutely.
Yeah. I got some sweet brand sponsorships that
are not worth millions of dollars in revenue.
We'll pay you $40 per post. No, my floor price
now, I've become very a stickler on it. I'm like,
look, if LinkedIn's not going to pay me, you
are. All right. Now that we're getting close
to time, we have to go to our rapid fire questions,
Brooke, which are my favorite part of the show
because we ask the same questions to everybody,
but we're doing a different format. Than we used
to. So I'm going to ask you the same questions
I ask everybody. And then Perry is going to come
in with a new unhinged. Great. We all have to
answer a question that I don't even know what
the question is. So I'm excited to hear it, but
we're going to start with the easy ones. So Brooke,
you get to erase one corporate buzzword from
existence. What is it? My God, that's such a
good question. Let's circle back. Ooh, nice.
Okay. Well, let's circle back on that one. You're
about to give a presentation in front of 50 ,000
people, like a stadium style. What song do you
walk to the stage on? Let's see. I would probably
do the killer song. Mr. Brightside. Nice. All
right. You're Mr. Brightside. Mrs. Brightside.
You're Mrs. Brightside. If you had to do a TED
Talk, Mrs. Brightside, on anything but recruiting,
marketing, communications, whatever, what would
your topic be? I would talk about how to raise
resilient children, because I think that is so
important. And I think that how to not helicopter
parent and how to you know, have give children
the right values. I mean, I would have to do
a lot of research to do that. I was going to
say, I mean, are you already an expert? Can you
give us? I'm not at all, but I want to have Brazilian
children. So I love it. All right. And this fun,
my final question, you get to only use one emoji
for the rest of your life. Which one? I mean,
I would probably do, um, I would do the one where
the, the head is like cracking like an egg and
like melting. Oh, the melty face. Yeah. Melty
face. Number one. Yeah. We all love the melty.
Yeah. I think a lot of us are using that far
too often these days, but it's like, it can mean
so much. You can good day, bad day. I'm embarrassed.
I'm ashamed. I hate this. I hate my life. Anyway.
carry on perry time for some unhinged madness
all right brand new question i cooked up today
um all right a lot of these have to do with cash
like what would you do for cash basically so
brooke you are given an opportunity to pocket
20 million free and clear interest -free tax
-free today 20 million dollars okay that's that's
walking that's right riding off into the sunset
money All you have to do in exchange for that
is take one bunny rabbit and throw it into a
wood chipper. Do you throw the bunny into the
wood chipper and take the $20 million? No, I
would never kill an animal or hurt an animal.
One bunny into the wood chipper. It's over instantly.
I don't think I could do it. Okay. You're saying
no? $20 million. I'm taking this $20 million
right back. You have a few more seconds. What
about $100 million? I just, I don't, I don't,
I don't like violence. I'm not asking you to
like violence. I'm asking you, would you pay
$20 million? I honestly don't think I would because
I would have to live with myself every day of
hurting an animal. And that's not the right way
to make money. Now, how about a frog? I mean,
again, it's, I don't, I don't like these questions.
I don't want to promote animals or people. I
promote kindness. What about a frog? 20 million,
one frog. I cannot see myself like literally
intentionally killing a human or an animal in
any way. Okay. What about a spider? The last
one. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, spiders, I would take
them back. These are really strange questions.
Unhinged. Perry, it's really unhinged. I just
thought of it. The reason I'm going back on that
is because when I see a spider, I take a piece
of Kleenex and then I flush it, you know, wash
it down the throat. I just scream and then somebody
comes and kills it for me. I'll tell you the
other one I thought of today that I think is
less sort of insane. Would you take $20 million,
Brooke, except every time you laugh from now
on, you laugh exactly like a donkey. As loud
as a donkey. Totally fine. Totally fine. That's
funny. Oh, my God. She is so rich. She just has
this weird. Laugh. Yeah, but look at her jewelry.
Look at her clothes. Who's the donkey now? Look
at all our homes. What about you, Perry? Would
you kill a bunny? I think I would. I'm sorry
to say. For $20 million, I think I would. And
I say that because I've shot animals like a brown
dog in my yard. I think I would do it. I'd be
very unhappy, very sad with myself. I would not
like anything about it, but I would like all
the things I could do with $20 million. Here's
the thing. A lot of people, bunnies are a nuisance.
My neighbor just told me that he traps squirrels
and takes them off and drops them 30 miles away
because he doesn't want to kill them. But in
the county I live in, if you trap a squirrel,
you have to kill it. That's the rule. I live
in southern New Hampshire. All of my neighbors,
for real, are killing squirrels, bunnies, chipmunks.
It's really dark. Every day. you guys said this
podcast was called under embargo not talking
about killing animals i warned you that was unhinged
that's all perry sign up for no note for the
future no murder questions perry yes but that's
gonna be like would you rather like well but
we have time to give you one of the original
ones which was would you rather have hiccups
first but how what was the question would you
rather have hiccups for six months or chop up
your own pinky i would have hiccups for six months
um Guess what Becca would do? Speaking of chopping,
you said chopping off my own finger. No, she
would have hiccups. Oh, wait, I would not have
hiccups. Yeah, Becca would chop off her finger.
I watched a show last night, a new Netflix show,
and that was a punishment. What's the show? It's
called Under Embargo. It's called Under Embargo.
No, it's called Black Rabbit. It's with Jason
Bateman. Oh, right. Is it good? I heard it's
good. Black Rabbit? It's really great to watch
right before bed if you're like a comms pro or
recruiter and you just want to like, you know,
take a load off. You're like at the edge of your
seat. It's how I unwind every night with a little
anxiety inducing. True crime. Well, you need
to, right? It's the only way you can like normalize.
Yes. So to recap for our listeners at home, Brooke
would throw a rabbit into a wood chipper. Thank
you. And she loves murder shows before bed. Thank
you for coming to this show. I do like true crime.
I don't know what that says about me. I think
it says you're normal. My kid asked me one day
in the car because we listened to like podcasts.
He's like, mom, if I like murder shows, does
that mean I'm going to be a murderer? And I was
like, it does not because I love murder shows
and I would not kill a bunny. So there you go.
I was just going to say, Perry, do you like true
crime? Do you mean the show? oh just true crime
shows yeah i like that okay because you would
kill a bunny so we're just trying to figure out
the profile i mean reluctantly but yes i mean
yeah he's not going to celebrate it the wood
chipper part really makes it instantaneous that's
the thing that's good about it there's nothing
good about it honestly all right well brooke
i'm gonna give you an opportunity to share anything
you would like with our listeners or with us
or whatever. Is there anything that you would
like to share? I mean, I could share a lot of
things. One, I don't kill animals. I think what
I would want to share is that it has been a really
frustrating job market for comms people for quite
some time. And I can see that and I hear that.
And I do believe it's getting better. and i do
believe more opportunities are being created
and i do believe we are on an upward swing i'm
very direct but i'm also optimistic and i i do
think things are getting better i love the optimism
how can how can people find you brooke um a great
way to find me becca is on linkedin um under
uh brooke krueger and then you can also learn
more about my company casey partners on my website
which is www .kc -partners .com And I'll give
you the endorsement that Brooke knows everybody
because anytime I ask anyone if they know Brooke,
they're like, yeah, obviously I know Brooke.
So there you go. If you're in the comms world,
get on Brooke's radar. Perry, any final thoughts?
I'm just really disappointed in Brooke's choice
to kill rabbits. That's it. That's going to be
like, that's going to be like. We promise that
won't be the clip, Brooke. Brooke Kruger, recruiter,
kills bunnies, bunny killer. BK, bunny killer.
Brooke Kruger or Freddy Kruger? Am I right? Sorry,
Brooke. We really brought your crazy level to
a whole new one today. This is good. You guys
got me out of my head for the past hour, so I
love it. We had a blast. It was great. It really
was fascinating to hear about what your world
is like and how it relates to ours. It's really
a fascinating time. Yes. Thank you for coming,
Brooke. Thanks a lot.