Welcome to Pawprint Academy, your blueprint to
raising better dogs. My name is Ryan, and I'll
be your host for this journey. I've got my trusty
co -host here, Brianna. Hello. And together,
we're bringing you real -world training insights
built on leadership, structure, and proven methods.
We record this podcast with live clients on the
line in one take with live, unscripted questions
and answers. At the end of the day, this podcast
is a lot more than just teaching your dog to
sit or stay. creating calmness, and becoming
the kind of leader your dog truly needs. We do
that with our three pillar method of trust, obey,
and perform. Together, we'll show you how these
three pillars shape every step of training. Thanks
for being here. Let's get started. Episode 22,
Countersurfing and Food Stealing. It's going
to be great. Yeah. Stopping the habit at its
source. So, unmuting that one. All right, we'll
try this. So, today we are talking about countersurfing
and the age old, the dog ate the steak. and ran
off with it right as you're getting ready to
go out for a grilling extravaganza and the the
dog runs off with your food and you're like oh
here we go i've even seen the ones where they
eat the steak and they like turn around and they're
like where did it go and the dog's already gone
right it's already swallowed it too so i don't
know not gonna not getting that one back um so
the ah i was this this week has been crazy and
so i i have no crazy statistics or crazy announcements
for you tonight we're gonna jump right into it
uh i do have the uh for the people that are dialed
in and um joined on the zoom call i've got the
chat window open so if you have questions throughout
the time if there's something that's popped up
but you don't want to like interrupt just go
ahead and throw something into the chat and I'll
try to answer it on the fly and then if I think
on the we're going to open it up for questions
and story time somewhere in the middle of this
this one can in the right frame of mind can be
a funny subject matter right if you're past every
right yeah and not at the moment right but afterwards
uh everybody's got a good story of when they
turned around and their dog made out with their
uh yeah with the steak yep all of those stories
or the i don't know the burgers or whatever tacos
yeah anything i'm out of here um for sure uh
would be one of our dogs um But then not the
other. But here we go. Yeah, go ahead and shake
your head at me. You want to get started. Countersurfing
and food stealing are a learned behavior. But
it's one of those behaviors that gets reinforced
instantaneously, real quick, because it's self
-rewarding. So it's driven by opportunity. it
has one of those immediate payoffs. So as soon
as the dog does it once, they're like, oh, that
was awesome. I'm for sure going to wait to do
that again. So dogs steal food because it works.
And ending the behavior requires both removal
of the reinforcement event as well as controlling
access and then teaching kind of those calm alternatives
instead of relying on. Like a late correction,
which is usually yelling and screaming at the
dog as it runs off with your steak. Right. Because
you don't usually catch them in the moment. And
sometimes you're even later than that. Right.
Because if you did, if you did, you probably
would have just put your hand out and like prevented
it from happening. Right. That's usually the
problem is that you're you're not fast enough.
Yeah. Usually there's too much distance involved
there. Right. So let's we'll jump right into
it. um will you jump right into it i'm trying
to fix this chat window here yeah so um our major
point number one is going to be why dogs counter
surf and steal food which we've already kind
of gone over right it's shaped by success and
repetition so most of the time when you have
a dog that ends up stealing something off the
counter the very first time they pretty much
learn immediately that they can keep doing it
it's not that difficult and And there's a lot
of cool stuff up there on the counter that they
can't see all the time. Dogs that jump immediately
kind of go to jumping on the counter. And so
some of those things. And that's a learned behavior
too, by the way. Yeah. Like just to call it what
it is. Right. Dogs don't learn to stand on their
rear paws just by themselves just because they
balanced on it and it was cool. Right. They learned
it because of something. Yeah. And that was either
to get access to pets and hands and get closer
to a person when they first started jumping or.
to climb or to try to get closer to something
that they wanted. Right. And when it comes to
counter surfing specifically, like dogs are naturally
like scavengers, right? They're born to just
hunt and find their food. And so with that comes
like a strong food motivation. That's why when
we work with dogs, we always tell people. Cool.
We are going to use treats and food primarily
to teach behaviors because it's the number one
way that dogs learn. Now, there's some dogs out
there that aren't really food motivated. You
guys probably aren't going to have a problem
with counter serving unless you keep their toys
or something that they really enjoy up there.
They watch you put it up there. Right. And it's
like, oh, I see where it is. I'm going to get
that. So I would. But I want to also. Bring attention
to the other side of counter surfing, which is
it's not all about food. Right. Right. It's about
whatever they find valuable. So you're right.
So what you're talking about is a dog who's not
food motivated. They might not steal your food,
but a dog that finds something of value. Maybe
they they find a they they see a pill bottle
or something that you that they see you interact
with on a daily basis. They have already determined
because they've seen it over and over. They've
determined that that thing is valuable. And then
maybe they determine that if they were to take
ownership of that thing, you would be very interested.
Right. And so they do it out of engagement. Yep.
That is another another big one for why dogs
do it for sure. Because if you raise a big scene
because your dog stole something off the counter,
then they're like, well, that was kind of exciting.
Yeah. So we've had a client deal with this with
eyeglasses where the dog, it wasn't really counter
surfing, but it was, it was couch surfing. It
was side table surfing. The dog would even jump
up on like the mantle of the fireplace. And it
was a little, a little dog and would be able
to jump up there in order to get it because it
would immediately incite violence, a riot in
the, in the house. And it was like, ah, you get
back here. And, And that was fun. Yeah. That
was really exciting. And so moving on to that,
it's like inconsistent management a lot of the
times teaches the dog that they can steal when
you're not around because then there's basically
no punishment. And if there is, it's so delayed
that they're not connecting the punishment of
whatever you're doing, yelling, telling them
to get in their crate, kennel, whatever. to them
stealing off the counter it's the same way that
we talk about if your dog has an accident inside
while you're gone and you come back and punish
them for it by yelling at them putting them in
their crate whatever it is the dog's not relating
that punishment to them going to the bathroom
on the floor an hour ago or whatever it was and
dogs are naturally going to find and identify
easy access points whether that's food or toys
or whatever it is Whatever is easy. I mean, it's
just like in the mammals, like second nature
is to be lazy. Right. And every time they get
it, they win. This is fun. This is easy. Right.
It's easy access and it's very rewarding. Yeah.
Just like barking when we talk about barking.
Through multiple things. Through multiple pathways,
I guess, is what I'm trying to draw attention
to. It's not just rewarding to the dog because
they got something. cool or potentially tasty
they also got a huge reaction out of you right
and the more that you build that value in you
the more they get your attention the better in
their mind Yeah. So that self -rewarding, just
like we talk about with barking and things like
that, instantly kind of strengthens and creates
that habit for the long term. So then you kind
of have some backpedaling to do as soon as the
first instance sort of happens. Which brings
us to major point number two. How? Right. Yeah.
About how corrections don't. Corrections. Corrections
are usually late in this frame. And they don't
really fix the problem because they're just following.
You're just in a reactionary frame of mind. Right,
because inevitably the dog learns to do it all
the time when you're not around. Because if you
are going to punish the dog right then and there,
then they're going to learn to do it if they
can. when you're just not there and so then it
becomes this sneaky thing where it's like well
I only took my eyes off of them for two seconds
and they ran in there or well I was you know
in the bathroom and they went into the kitchen
and I just like I can't have them next to me
all the time right and that's where it comes
down to cool but we always advocate for if you're
if you can't keep your eyes on your dog they've
got to be somewhere you need a management strategy
yeah Yeah. And a management strategy. So I don't
want to jump ahead too much. Let's still frame
the problem. But a management strategy is going
to help you avoid that whole process. Yeah, absolutely.
So we've kind of determined and just by this
layout, we're kind of cruising through this.
But most corrections. Pretty much everyone who's
dealing with this issue before they really get
involved and treat it as a dog training issue.
They're almost always just chasing the problem.
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And it's just it's a very
natural thing to chase your steak as it exits
the house. And I think a lot of times people
sometimes I say sometimes I feel like a lot of
the times. Owners fix it themselves by just going,
well, I'm just never going to leave anything
out on the counter. Right. That is a management
strategy. That's the management strategy that
most people go with. But then every once in a
while they go, oh, dang it. I left that out and
they destroyed it. I did that. And then it's
like they put it on themselves, which to be fair,
like, cool. If you want your dog to like free
roam and do all the things and you're going to
take responsibility for every now and then for
getting something and your dog takes advantage
of it. then cool like i i have no problem with
it if you have no problem with it that's where
we always come down to like your house is your
house and your dog is your dog and you get to
treat it however you want right but if it becomes
a problem where you're like i need this fixed
then there's several strategies that we can kind
of go with right and Other than putting all your
stuff away. Right. And the more that you make
it a negative situation for the dog, the more
that the dog kind of adapts to stealing the things
quietly and secretively. Right. And then it's
even harder. And they get faster because they
learn. Right. That's where they're vacuuming
the whole steak down and they don't even like
chew it. And it's like, oh my goodness. That's
also a learned behavior. Yeah. Is because most
dogs would like. go and take it into the corner
and then kind of chew on it and like work through
it. The, the dogs that like gulp it down real
fast. They know they're about to get it taken.
They're like, I'm not supposed to have this.
I gotta eat it. I gotta eat it now. Hurry. So
true. Yeah. Um, the, what was I going to say?
Um, right. Hold on. Who even knows? Who even
knows? When it comes back down to, we talk about
the yelling and getting upset at your dog, right?
And that just drawing attention back to it. Because
we always say negative attention is still attention
to a dog. And at no point does it matter whether
you're upset or not. The dog thinks that it's
fun and exciting and that they got your attention
somehow. Yeah. Whether they wanted the item off
the counter or not. Yeah. yeah and it just puts
you at odds with your dog yeah and your dog is
like i'm gonna be sneaky yeah and then unfortunately
you get the the the next version of owners that
are like oh it's they're being sneaky about it
oh it's cute oh it's funny oh it's this oh it's
that and then that just continues to to ramp
up yeah Okay, so we talked about yelling. The
next one to talk about is inconsistency, right,
with our consequences. Sometimes we, you know,
this is where it kind of goes into what I was
just talking about, where there's sometimes when
people, like, laugh about it. Some people are
like, oh, my gosh, that's, they. They came out
of nowhere or they did something and it was like
cute. It was funny. Well, now there's a time
or two that is happening and the dog's not getting
corrected for it or the dog's not getting the
same negative reinforcement. And it only takes
an inch to then want to squeeze it out a mile.
Yeah. And then the dog's like, this is inconsistent.
I'm going to keep doing this. Right, because
if sometimes you get upset and you put them in
their kennel, or sometimes you get upset and,
I don't know, just yell at them, or the next
time you just don't do anything because whatever
they got into wasn't important, then you're just
telling the dog, like, yeah, it's okay. Oh, nope,
it's not okay. And the dog doesn't understand
whether the item they stole is okay or not okay,
or whether them jumping up on the counter was
okay or not okay. So there's always the differences
of that as well. And then the punishment is,
I'm trying to think of how I can say it. So punishment
can, we can go down a couple of different roads
with punishment, but the congruency behind punishment
is really, really important. I don't think that
you can ethically punish your dog inconsistently.
And so I was trying to think of how I can say
that. Punishing your dog by yelling at them in
this instance and then by throwing something
at them in this instance and then by grabbing
them and trying to wrestle things out of their
mouth in this instance creates confusion. It's
not consistent and it doesn't create clear communication.
And so what we want to do is we want to really
create some significant management that can lead
to clear communication and defined consequence.
Right, and setting your dog up for success. Because
if you're just going to let your dog free roam
and leave a steak on the counter and think that
your dog's just going to have the self -control.
To be like, no, no, I'm not supposed to eat that.
They don't think that way. They're not in any
way, shape, or form going, I don't actually want
that steak on the counter. It's fine. I don't
need that. I don't want it. Right. Yeah, it's
a losing strategy to set your dog up with some
of the most exciting or most rewarding things
that they could have in their mind and then be
like, I'm fine. We're going to train for you
to not choose those things. That usually loses.
Yeah. So we'll jump into management here in just
a second. What I want to do is I want to just
take a moment and open it up for anybody who
has had a experience like that. What types of,
so we've talked about food. We talked about toys.
We talked about the eyeglasses or just other
things that people have found are not people,
but dogs have found important. What are some
things that any of you listening have dealt with?
Does anybody want to share? Hey, this is Jenny
with cash. Hey, Jenny. Hey, Jenny. Hey. We're
struggling with toilet paper, whether it's on
the roll, in the toilet, on a counter, in a basket,
a trash can. He just seems to really love toilet
paper, used or clean, whether we're using it
to blow our nose or just, and I'm pretty sure
you can hear him in his crate right now, but
we're really struggling on toilet paper. Okay.
And that's just something that he like steals
and helps himself to around the house. Yeah,
he eats it. He takes it in the backyard. We've
tried the treat, you know, trying to find something
with a higher value. But whether it's clean or
used for makeup wipe off for the kids, he just
loves it. Right, because at that point you're
trying to trade him and he's like, well, no,
no, what I have must be valuable. It's way better.
And it's just Charmin. It's not like it's anything
with fragrance. Nice. Sorry. We found tampons,
kitchen utensils. Yeah. The randomness thing
is he never takes our food off the counter. It
is like one time he did, but really it's more
paper products. Okay. Interesting. We thought
that was pretty interesting because we do like
a lot of ground beef and chickens and dinners
and stuff. No issue. But toiletry is our big
thing. Right. Didn't you say that before he came
to you that he was with college kids and they
kept him in the bathroom a lot? Yes. So that's
why we're thinking there's a correlation in regards
to that, because that's maybe one thing he could
always get his hands on. Right. Yeah. And shred.
And it's kind of like fun. We just don't know
how to keep it out of the way of him. We try
putting it underneath the sink, but he also knows
how to open doors very well. Right. But I can't
not keep Tulip in the bathroom. All right. Well,
let's put a pin in that just temporarily, and
we're going to talk about some different management
strategies, and then we can open it back up and
be like, cool, did we give you any ideas? Perfect.
dial that in even a little more does anybody
else have anything that they've dealt with toilet
paper is a good one yeah that's a good one um
hey guys it's me fatima hey fatima i don't i
already told you this story so um with bubba
he is super food driven um so we i have like
as i told you some shrimp on the counter in the
kitchen and i walked away for like A few seconds,
just a few seconds. And I come back and he's
already like jumped up, took the shrimp, put
it down. He was munching on it. And he was enjoying
the heck out of that shrimp. And I was making
it for dinner for friends. And I was so mad.
I didn't even know what to do at that point.
If I should laugh, you know, scream at him. And
he just he just sat there when he saw me looking
at him and just. Just stop. Like, damn, I know
I'm caught. It's like, what? I thought it was
for both of us. Right. So he's just super food
driven. Like, even if I'm sitting down at the
dining table and eating, he will just either
jump up to try to sniff and take a bite or sit
there waiting for me. Like, he's looking at me
like, mom, could you just drop some food? Like
anything. But that was one of. The encounters
I had with him, I was devastated. Oh, yeah. That's
the moment where it's like, I'm just going to
walk away. Right. I'm just going to take a minute.
I had to calm down. I had to calm myself. Shrimp
is expensive. Right? Shrimp is not a cheap one
to steal. No, it's not. I was like, you know
how much this is? This is like 30 bucks, dude.
You just throw it down the drain. No, I can't
use it. But yeah, that was that was one of the
encounters with him over the counter. He loves
to jump up on there and look if there's food.
But hopefully now with the training, he's doing
better and not going into the kitchen as much.
But he still has like those little moments where
he doesn't like he sees me distracted for one
second. Then he runs and I'm just like, no. And
then he runs back. he's like right that's the
that was the getting sneaky thing that I was
talking about right they start they're like they're
watching I'm gonna be sneaky they start being
ornery right I think our Dutch Shepherd is one
of the main offenders of like, oh, mom and dad
aren't watching. I'm going to do something crazy.
He's like, oh, I'm going to go bother that dog.
Or if we have the kids working with him, he's
like, oh, I'm going to try to wrestle. And then
we come out of nowhere and he's like, oh, oh,
my parents are here. Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. Right.
Right. Accountability has entered the building.
Yeah. That's pretty much him. Hopefully he gets
out of that habit because I do not want to be
losing any more shrimp. Well, we will talk about
how to. Thanks for sharing. Awesome. So let's
jump into that. I'm going to bring this guy back
up. Before we even touch on that, though, I want
to mention like one more thing that we haven't
even touched on that. I mean, I've seen videos
of is when. You get a dog that counter surfs
and you have the stoves with the knobs on the
front and dogs have accidentally turned those
on. Right. And it's like caught things on fire.
There's been like things on top of the stove,
whatever, whatever you may have. But those are
instances that people don't think of either where
it's like that's a safety issue. It's not even
it doesn't even come down to like, oh, my dog
ate something off the counter. It's like, oh,
my dog set my house on fire. Right. You know,
that happened recently. There was. i don't know
i'm trying to remember different i just watched
a video recently where a dog accidentally um
caught something on fire right there's a bunch
of them right now with the batteries going around
where the dogs there was one with like an electric
like a heated glove and the dog was chewing on
the glove and it had the battery thing in it
and it combusted and like caught on fire and
the dogs are all like ah we gotta get out of
here right But there are a lot of those instances
that like we don't think of right off the bat.
Like we talk about counter -serving and we're
like, oh, well, it steals the steak off the counter.
But there are definitely like safety issues that
we, you know, didn't touch on yet that can happen
for sure if you're not, you know, careful in
managing. Yeah. No, for sure. Okay. So let's
jump into that. So stopping the stealing part.
Definitely requires like management, but it also
requires clear alternatives. It's similar to
in one of the ways we stop jumping is by teaching
a dog a pattern or a behavior that is literally
impossible for them to do that and jump at the
same time. Yeah. Right. By teaching a behavior
that's inversely proportional to the issue that
you're having, it's kind of a management strategy
in and of itself. The first one, let's hit the
low -hanging fruit or those really close targets
first. Remove the food access and remove it from
those counters and tables and things that the
dogs can jump on. A close eye on things is great
right up until you can't keep an eye on it. Right.
And that's usually when these problems, you know,
inject themselves into your life. So how I would
apply that concept to managing a dog who gets
access to those things. I'm thinking of a solution.
Sorry. And I said that wrong. Let me back up
a second. How I would apply that to cash specifically
with a dog who is rating the toilet paper is.
And this might be tricky because he can close.
Right. Because he can open the doors. Right.
Different. Different. Waste baskets that are
more difficult to get into. Right. Something
with a top to it or something that requires like
actually using fingers and hands in order to
open and then to deposit something into that
waste basket can. potentially and i'm not trying
to insult your intelligence whatsoever on on
this subject but we're just going to talk about
it in uh in general with those the easiest solutions
and the hardest totally uh expect that you've
worked through some of these things right um
being able to open doors being able to open doors
is tricky yeah um and they're uh things that
um replacing um just popping out one of the hinges
with a hinge that is spring loaded um you could
safety those little knobs that cover your doorknob
depending on the door depending on the type of
doorknob either replacing um the doorknob with
something that can't be opened as easy or there
are multiple child proofing types of um covers
and things that can go on there. And then looking
at the cabinets themselves, if that's something
that can be opened, there are different types
of cabinet hardware that ideally could be just
unscrewed with one or two screws in the back
and swapped out. Or there are numerous child
proof uh proofing type things that um you can
put those little clips um you like screw them
into the inside of the cabinet and then they
create kind of like a little pressure switch
you gotta like reach your fingers in there and
push down on in order to open up the cabinets
little things like that um can be one way that
we can handle those things um okay so That's
just removing access or controlling access to
the actual items. Then the next thing is let's
talk a impossible, a differential behavior that
is impossible or incongruent. So place. Place
is a great one. Place can be held either voluntarily
or involuntarily with a dog. You can, when we're
first training a dog to stay on place, we will
use a tether. And we did a podcast with, we talked
about tethered place, but we'll just hash it
out real fast. Tethered place is where you take
a place bed and you're in the process of teaching
your dog to place. But you need accountability.
So you put the dog on a leash, you tie said leash
with a couple of feet of extra to spare so that
the dog can, I'm sorry, you tie the leash to
something that's very heavy or immovable. Now
the dog has a option of only going a couple of
feet around the place bed. And what will inevitably
happen is that you create a space where the place
bed is the most comfortable and the most advantageous
option for them. So they could lay down on the
hard floor if they want to be obstinate or they
could lay on this nice place bed. Well, it doesn't
take very long for a dog to choose to, hey, I'm
actually going to lay on this place bed. It's
more comfortable. by them just making that decision
you start to build that in their head and now
they're like i want to lay on this place bed
rather than the floor yeah now you've increased
the value of that place bed and now we continue
to like build value in that it's not it's not
as simple as just just do this but We'll bring
it up as this is a training method that we can
use in order to hold our dogs accountable. This
is the strategy that we use in our house. Our
dogs, when they, a lot of times we let them run
around and do whatever in the house. But at the
point where they're not making appropriate decisions,
well now they're either going to place or they're
going in a crate. And those are our two management
strategies for our house. If you're not going
to make a responsible, mature decision and not,
you know, mess with your brother over there.
Well, then you're going to lay on your place
bed. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. And then I'm going
to hold you accountable through multiple different
means, either through a tether, through a leash,
through an e -collar or. at the end of all of
that hierarchy i'm gonna put you in a crate yeah
because you're not listening yeah and i mean
i think that's a lot of the times like what helps
dogs is like oh well i don't even get to be out
if i don't like behave right they learn a level
of respect where if you can't if you can't participate
in how we're gonna act then you're gonna you're
gonna go to your room By the time I've told you
three times to go back to your place. Yeah. I
don't have time for that. I don't have time for
that. You're going in a crate. Yeah. I have stuff
to do. Like I'm an adult. Like we have to move
on. I can't just be like, no place, no place,
no place. Right. And I can do it very emotionless.
Yeah. Like I don't have to get mad about it.
I don't, I'm not going to waste my time with
it. Yeah. I've asked you three times. You're
not staying on your place. Cool. All right. Kennel.
Yeah. And then you, and then they go to their
kennel. Right. And you close the door. And then
I move on with my day. Yeah. And that's that's
the end of it. There's no there's no like I don't
set a timer. I don't set anything. They go in
there until the next time in which I'm like,
hey, I want to have my dogs out. Yeah. But there's
no like, oh, well, I only put them in there for
20 minutes. They're going to go in there until
until I'm ready. Yeah. And and it's it's not
a it's not abuse. It's not mean. It's not I'm
not. Even giving them an attitude about it. I'm
just like, all right, cool. Right. And dogs being
on place for however long isn't a problem for
dogs. Like we will let our dogs out and not give
them anything to do. And eventually they just
end up going on their places because they're
like, well, I don't know what else to do. But
like misbehaving is not an option. So I'm just
going to like go over here and lay down or take
a nap or do whatever. And inevitably it's like
we let the dogs out of their kennels. We put
them on place and then. They immediately like
fall asleep. And to the point where it's like,
cool, like that's their habit and their pattern
that we've instilled in them is like when you
go to your place, you're going there to chill
until I tell you to get up otherwise. So they
just go there and they check out. They're like,
cool, let me know when I'm done. And inevitably
an hour or so later, however long it is until
I'm done, you know, doing my laptop work or whatever.
And then we go outside and then usually we go
into our kennels. So it's not a crazy like structure,
but I'm telling them where to move and when to
move. And that's what most people don't see it
as. They're like, well, I have to do this, this,
then this. You just have to guide your dog and
tell them where you want them to go next. Yep.
All right. So the next one is let's teach the
dog some impulse control behavior around the.
The variable, whatever the variable is that they
are trying to get. Yeah. In the case of our examples,
it's food. In the case of cash, that would be
that would be teaching him impulse control around
toilet paper. Yeah. In the case of the eyeglasses,
it would be we introduce those eyeglasses while
a dog is on place and I just handle the eyeglasses
or I. Have the dog in a down. And I work with
the dog. With sit and down. While I'm holding
the eyeglasses. Or Jenny in your case. While
a roll of toilet paper is sitting on the counter.
And then it's in your hand. And then it's on
the ground. And then it's on the right. We introduce.
That trigger. Progressively. Starting way away.
Starting. With distance, because that distance
decreases the volume in that dog's mind. Of the
distraction, yeah. Of the distraction. And then
we slowly incorporate more and more distraction
with that inciting variable. Right, and the process
of it isn't to be like, cool, he's not going
to eat the toilet paper because he's in a down.
It's teaching him that just because toilet paper
is there doesn't mean that he gets to eat it.
So it's not always like, cool, if he goes after
toilet paper, you tell him to lay down or something
like that. It's just desensitizing dogs to the
item that's there, right? Very good. That's what
we were going for. We're not just training for
the toilet paper. You're continuing to train,
but with the presence of. The variable that seems
to. Right. And that can apply to so many different
things. It's like, well, if your dog's barking
at other dogs, you start at a distance and you
bring the dogs closer, but you're working the
dog through things and engaging with them through
those triggers. Yep. You know what time it is?
What time? It's time for the science lesson.
Oh, goodness. I thought you didn't have one of
those. Oh, you just. Oh, my goodness. I didn't
have an update. Right. You have science. Okay.
Okay. Pull up your chairs. Quick science lesson.
I have the last like four podcasts I've done
really good at getting a quick science lesson
in. Okay. And the words have fallen on the floor.
All right. Okay. This science lesson is on classical
conditioning. I want to refresh and talk about
classical condition with toilet paper. Okay.
Okay. Classical conditioning is that concept
that we have instilled or installed a reaction
in a dog that is uncontrollable in the dog. And
we've related it to something either on purpose
or accidentally. So classical conditioning, that
concept of The dogs were salivating, the Ivan
Pavlov experiment, the dogs were salivating because
the food was presented. That salivating because
the food was presented was never conditioned
in the dogs. It just happened naturally. The
dogs were just, they were like, oh, there's food.
Okay, I'm going to, and they naturally salivated.
But by ringing the bell, then giving the food.
then ringing the bell then giving the food doing
that a few times you started to condition the
dog to the bell even though the bell before the
experiment had nothing to do with the dogs and
the dogs were not conditioned to it so the bell
became the conditioned stimulus and the conditioned
response to that was the salivating the dog can
become and in this case talking about the exact
issue was this dog was uh potentially allegedly
stored in and lived in a bathroom where it may
have had access to toilet paper and when it was
stimulated to do anything It had access to toilet
paper. The toilet paper can become the bell.
Yeah. And so now the dog sees the toilet paper
and goes through a stimulus type response to
the toilet paper. Like this is highly valuable
to me. But really initially it was probably because
it was something else. Yeah. But now it's been
conditioned to. reacting to the toilet paper
yep and i want to draw attention to the fact
that the toilet paper and his response to the
toilet paper is not a controlled response he's
not necessarily if if this is a classical conditioning
issue he has no control over it this is something
that gets built in and then the dog just reacts
to this happens to the doorbells this happens
to the the sound of the mailman coming to the
door this happens to all of these different things
initially there was no reaction and now there
is so what i'm getting at is the way that we
break down that concept is by getting the dog
to start to relate The fact that there's toilet
paper there and they're being held accountable
to this other like set of stimulus. Yeah. Or
this other concept. So I'm doing sit, I'm doing
down, I'm doing crate, I'm doing all of these
other things that I'm giving food and the toilet
paper is right there and I'm not interacting
with it. And we start to lower the value of the
toilet paper. Yeah. There you go. Science lesson
for the day. Right. Okay. Nice. Um, Where was
I? We're being called to disengagement consistently.
There you go. So that comes down to, right, you
see the dog, you know, walking by the counter
with food on it. You can calmly reward that and
catch the moments where they are doing a good
job. And then you also have to, have to, have
to, have to ensure that stealing never pays off.
because just like we tell owners if the dog pulls
on a leash and gets to where it's going you're
20 steps back the same applies to to stealing
things if the dog gets paid one time for stealing
they're going to do it again and again and again
and they're going to try harder each and every
time And that's that variable ratio reward schedule.
Right. Science lesson from like two or three
things back. I'll touch on like extreme circumstances
real quick before we like move on to I think
listener projects are next, which is crazy. We're
cruising. Yeah. But one big thing I want to talk
about is we always inevitably get the call or
get to the point where the owner is like, well,
they're only doing it when I'm not there. What
do I do or how do I handle something if I'm not
there? One, crate your dog. Right? Put them in
a crate when you're gone. And not only so that
they don't steal something, right? It's a hazard
to the dog. The dogs do not have the brain capacity
or knowledge to know what is going to kill them
and what is not. A dog sees a grape. Grapes are
toxic. They're going to eat it. It doesn't matter.
They don't know. Just like a dog's going to eat
something chocolate, right? They don't know that
it's dangerous to them and they don't care. They
can consume it. They're going to, even if it's
inconsumable, they might try to consume it. Toilet
paper. Right. And so one, it's a danger to the
dog. And two, I already touched on like, it comes
down to, they could turn on your stove or. anything
else your water they could flood your house there's
a lot of different things that we don't think
about on the front end that can go horribly wrong
by leaving our dogs out free one when they're
not mature or responsible enough to handle so
and a lot of times regardless of their age or
maturity like it's just a safety hazard sometimes
um most of the time and so that's one of the
main things and then two When it comes down to
the ultimate like sneaky dog, we look at, and
is this the most convenient for you? But no,
it's not. And it can get kind of tricky, but
you have to put the tools to work that you have
available. And it's 2026. And what are those
tools? So one, setting up a camera, whether that
be. your phone an extra phone a ring camera they
sell cheap cameras on on amazon i'm sure that
you can just like set up on your counter um and
using an e -collar and i don't necessarily mean
that you have to electronically stem your dog
which is not shocking them it's a muscle stimulator
um so A lot of times we go to e -collar because
if you can't be in the presence of your dog and
your dog has learned that every time you leave,
they have access to whatever it is, then there's
nothing there to reinforce that. And so you have
to be able to have vision of what the dog is
doing and you have to have the ability to hold
the dog accountable without being present, which
comes down to. There's no option outside of an
e -collar where you can hold a dog accountable
without a collar or a leash on. Right. And so
what we're not going to be able to go into is
all of the methods and ways that we can train
a dog on an e -collar for tonight. However, an
electronic collar, a remote collar, there are
many, many, many different. versions and and
things out there and uh inevitably people immediately
go right to oh you mean a shock collar no we
mean a collar that you have a remote control
to and that you can somehow one way or another
get your dog's attention and hold your dog accountable
from a distance but also if you buy a $20 e -collar
off amazon it is going to shock your dog so don't
do that for sure for sure yeah don't If you need
a recommendation, yeah, we can give you some,
but it is not going to be the $20 ones off Amazon
because nobody that is a trainer or in that category
is going to trust one of those devices. Nope.
I prefer equipment that your dog responds to
that is so low that I can't even feel it. Right.
We put e -collars on ourselves and owners when
we talk about e -collars. But just because you
put an e -collar on your dog does not mean also
that you have to use the e -stem setting. With
the collars that we use, there's a tone setting.
Some dogs don't like it. And there's also a vibrate
setting, which is really, really popular among
owners that are like, well, no, no, I'm not going
to do that. Yeah, 100%. So vibrate is also an
option that dogs are highly responsive to a lot
of the times. The concept is simply that you
can... reach out yeah and touch your dog yep
from a distance right right the same concept
as being able to put a leash on them and it goes
50 feet into the other room yeah and then you
have a video camera it'd be the same concept
except you're like thinking through the logistics
here you're like well that would never work exactly
50 feet away where you have a camera in your
you know, your kitchen. And when the dog jumps
up on the counter, you can give them leash pressure
and say no. Yeah. Well, that's all we're doing
with a leash, with a, with a knee collar. Right.
But dogs are smart enough to where eventually
they're not going to do it with you standing
right there. So then you have to move on and
you have to like outsmart the dog. And that's
why we're talking about the super sneaky dog.
Yeah. And it's not every dog. We, I mean, Dexter's
almost two and one. He's never even had human
food outside of, I've now, Given him one blueberry
that he dissected and a strawberry that he loved.
So I will every now and then cut something up
for myself. And I'm like, I'm going to give these
to the dogs to try. But he's always like, this
is really weird. I don't I don't know what this
is. This is not dog food. But he's the height
of our counters. And he is never like. I'm going
to jump up and try to get that. Because he's
never been able to. Right. He's never been able
to. Not even one time. Yeah. If you've never
tried steak, you're not going to be like, well,
that's delicious. Right. He doesn't know what
it tastes like. Yeah. He smells it. Yeah. He'll
put his nose up there. He'll put his nose up
there and be like, oh, something smells good.
Yeah, there's something up there. But that's
the end of it. Yeah. Because he's never been
able to learn that behavior. Yep. Yep. All right.
Um, right. And then there's other dogs we haven't
been as, uh, successful with because, you know,
they, they, when, when I say, I have no idea
what you're talking about. No, no, no, no. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Um, and there's other, uh, are like,
um, I got nothing. Your words fell. I know they
fell out and they, they fell on the floor. Um,
the other, other dogs. So we have four dogs.
Uh, let me just jump into this one. So we have,
we have four dogs and, uh, Dexter is the one
that has never like tasted human food. So we
don't have that issue. Well, we have other dogs
that have tasted human food and they're like,
Hey, I, I want up there. So like our little Frenchie,
she'll like climb your leg and be like, Hey,
what do you got there? I want it. I want some
of that. Right, that's all I was getting at.
Right, and then also Nala before has had eggs,
which we didn't know, but every time we crack
an egg, she like comes around the corner and
it's like, what are you looking at? And it's
like, oh, right, I have eggs. Because she used
to get fed. Right, we've never given her eggs,
but she used to, yeah. Yeah, and they would crack
an egg and give it to her. In her food, yeah.
And so now she hears the eggs and she's like
right there. Right, it's been like so many years
since she's had eggs, but she still hears an
egg and she's like, what is that? What is that
an egg you're cracking over there? I know what
that is. Right. But also like, we didn't even
touch on the fact that like our management strategy
alone also is like, no dogs are allowed in the
kitchen because like, why, why would they be?
You're not going to help me put dishes away or
cook this food. So why are you even in the kitchen?
So we have like boundaries where the dogs like
step to the edge of the counter and they don't
go past it. Nala likes to lay right there in
the middle of the walkway. But it's the boundary
of like, nope, go, go. I'm a big fan of go. And
I know that that's not like an official command,
but it's a cue that dogs can understand, especially
when you do the like mom hand wave of like get
back. And I always do the snap. I'm a snapper.
But dogs can learn boundary lines. And you just
teach them where they're allowed to go and where
they're not allowed to go. And then it's like,
cool, we're not even going to step foot in the
kitchen. We're not even allowed in the kitchen.
I don't even know what's over there. yeah i just
didn't want to make it sound like we have such
amazing dogs right we don't our dogs are awful
some days we've never had to deal with any issues
right oh yeah for sure we have and dexter still
like every now and then he'll jump up on a kennel
to be like is there something good up here and
it's like no off right and he's very good about
like oh okay here's no and he's like oh sorry
okay but he's opportunistic he's still a little
puppy right he's less than two getting close
but less than two very large right and he just
like he doesn't even jump right he just steps
up it's like it's outrageous um but we're paying
attention to him right and he's not just out
of our sight doing whatever he wants and so yeah
we we don't have perfect dogs there are some
days where i'm like you know you know there's
somebody else that would like to have you i would
never but We don't have easy dogs. And when you
have four, there's never moments at all times
where you're like, man, these dogs are all so
great. They pick their days of battles and violence.
There's good days and bad days. Yeah. Everybody
has good days and bad days. Today, they were
all perfect angel babies. Perfect angels. No
problem. We took hard naps on our place beds.
I took a video of Dexter sleeping upside down.
Love that. They did great. But. He tested me
at first when he didn't have a collar or leash
or anything on. I was like, oh, you got any accountability
here? You going to tell me to go back? But after
one time of being like, no, go back. I'm not
playing around. He's like, okay, I'm just going
to lay down. Right. But results are not always
typical. Right. Those results are not always
typical. Right. And sometimes it depends on the
time of day, right? They get up and they choose
violence. Right. And they're like, I don't know.
He chooses violence every morning at 7 a .m.,
if not a little bit before. he's one of those
dogs. Like we, we knew the dog that we got and
we knew he wasn't going to be an easy dog. There's
easy dogs and there's not easy dogs. And it really
just depends on the type of dog that you have.
Yeah. But you have to be willing to figure out
your dog and what works for them and what doesn't
because every dog is managed differently and
every dog has a different strategy that works.
Love that. All right. Let's open it up for questions.
So, um, If you have a question, now is your chance
to ask it. Give you 10 seconds. all right no
questions moving on to listener projects pulling
it up and go place during meal prep so when you
start working on a meal you can start to reinforce
this concept of of guided like timelines in your
house so when you go uh it is not impossible
to train a dog that whenever you go into the
kitchen and start working with food that they
go to their place bed or they go into their crates
or they go in the other room or whatever it is
right dogs are pattern based so teach them through
that that when you go into the kitchen you start
working with food that they go to their place
right because half of the people On this call
and listening to the podcast afterwards, you
didn't teach your dog that when you pick up the
leash, you're going for a walk, but that your
dog doesn't get excited when you pick up a leash.
Yeah. Yep. So reward that calm holding on that
place. So send your dog to place as soon as you
start the food prep and then reward them intermittently.
through those continuation markers. So we use
yes and we use good as continuation markers.
Continue to reward them intermittently as you're
working through your food prep. And then release
only after the food activities end. Listener
project number two, kitchen boundaries. Just
like we can teach a dog to stay off of or out
from in front of a door that we're going to then
open, we can also teach the dog that the kitchen
is a boundary and that they don't enter it when
you're doing things in the kitchen. So you can
keep the counters clear and you can enforce a
specific boundary. either putting a um like a
a rug or a mat or a blanket or a towel or something
down and that is now the new like line in the
sand so to speak where hey you don't cross this
line and just hold them accountable calmly and
without emotion and teach them that hey This
is the boundary. Supervise and manage that dog
and their attention. Give them those other things
to do. Go to your place. Go to a crate. Go chew
on this bone over there in the living room. Whatever
it is. And reward that common disengagement from
trying to get into the kitchen. All right. That's
all I got for tonight. Cool. No questions at
all. All right. That is all I've got for tonight,
so we will close it out. You got time for one
more question? I sure do. I sure do. I wasn't
sure how to ask it. I've been mulling it over
while you did your little extra bit there. So
let me just word vomit it, and then you guys.
Tell me how I screwed this up. Have you heard
most of this podcast? That's what I've been doing.
That's my strategy most of the time. I can't
find the words I dropped on the floor yet, okay?
So here it goes. All right. You guys said earlier
we don't have time to correct passe three times
and we put them in the crate. Yeah. Who's got
time for that, right? Yep. Do it, do it, do it.
Don't do it. Okay. Punishment, right? I'm putting
them in the crate for a punishment. but we're
training the crate to be the safe space, the
feeding space. Yep. Now we're using the crate
as a punishment or when we leave a year dog to
choose on something, I don't trust you. How do
I reinforce punishment versus safe space? I gotcha.
Right. Remember my dog without, I don't even
know what the punishment is other than kicking
it or. Never. I know. I know. I know you don't
kick. I know you don't kick your dog. So, yeah,
I get it. But what is what is a punishment versus
like a reward if I'm using the same space as
both? Yep. Let me let me read. So I had was talking
to Brianna about this actually earlier today.
Because I think that one way that I sometimes
word this in my head versus the way that it comes
across might have created some of this confusion.
Okay, so when you say that now, you know me and
you know how I like to try to overthink and dissect
and think forward. Am I doing that again instead
of just thinking simple -minded that the dog
is too stupid to know punishment versus reward?
Because we know Cash is a smart dog. Right. But
he's pushed every boundary we've put upon him
trying to train him. And then some. Yeah, so
I think for me, I don't know what Ryan's answer
will be, but for me, it comes down to your attitude
when you're putting him in the crate. So just
like I know we had talked about off on the couch,
right? And if you just go silent and just guide
him off the couch, there's a difference in conflict
there between your attitude with the dog, right?
If the dog gets something or... you know, you're
in the process of cooking dinner and they keep
crossing the boundary, then you're not going
to go, no, I told you not to go past that boundary
and like correct the dog or anything, which when
we talk about punishment, most of the time we
either talk about correcting the dog in some
way, whatever way people do it is entirely up
to them. We teach. fair corrections with leashes
and collars and things like that but we don't
correct the dog for it we simply change the variable
and the situation that we're putting the dog
in but without emotion or any type of really
punishment involved you're just changing the
situation on them and super neutrally like it's
like hey cool go to your place no place no place
he breaks again and it's like cool now i'm just
going to silently guide you to your crate And
so what I was going to include on that is that
what we have done by feeding the dog in their
crate and by giving them treats in their crate
and things like that is that we have created
a neutral space. It's not about it being a rewarded,
fun place to hang out that the dog will always
want to go. It's just about removing the negativity.
surrounding it so that it can be kind of a neutral
zone then we can use that as once again a neutral
type of stimulus so dog won't listen dog won't
listen dog won't listen well okay then let's
go over here and we'll go to this space instead
yeah that is not the same as You'll see a lot
of people grabbing them by the collar and just
tossing their dog into the crate. Dragging them
in there or trying to muscle them in and all
of those things. That's not going to work with
Cash, right? He's treat motivated to get into
that crate. So I'm struggling with the fact that
I'm rewarding him to get into the crate versus
teaching him that it's a punishment for not following
what we asked him to do. I gotcha. Is Cash on
a leash or a lead or anything while he's in this
space where you may need to interact with him?
Are we still using those? No, right? We're not
using the pinch caller 24 -7, but I'm thinking
that it might be something that needs to go longer.
It could, but... So ideally, we can use leash
pressure, turning that pressure on and off to
to kind of communicate with the dog, whether
they're wearing, you know, a prong collar or
a star mark collar or whatever kind of collar
that they're wearing. We should still be able
to use that leash pressure and guide the dog.
That's that's the goal. And so if we're having
an issue with that process, then that's a communication
thing that we need to bolster up regardless of
whether we're using the treat. Or like if he's
only going in there for the treat, then I would
say we've got a little more work that we can
do whether we're involved with the crate or not,
if that makes sense. It does. And I think that's
something that maybe you and I need to work on
next time you're here is to actually see the
interaction between dinnertime versus the treat
to go in the crate and the free to come out of
it. Awesome. Yeah. So as we build more of that
clear communication, we should see a decrease
in that. reliance on treats in order to get in
and out of the crate but i do see the confusion
with we uh what i was not trying to say was that
cool then i'm going to reward the dog with a
treat to go in their crate like instead of going
on their place so i can see that confusion No,
I don't know. I appreciate it. I just was, again,
you know how my brain functions. So I instantly
start thinking 27 steps ahead. Yeah, no problem.
Awesome. I love the interaction and I love the
questions. I always prefer to talk through all
the things. So thanks, Michael. Thanks for. No,
we appreciate you guys so much. It's been such
a valuable resource. We're almost there. We're
just not quite. We're having a glass of wine
tonight. Maybe two. I got it. You guys have a
unique household dynamic. Yes, yes. All right.
Well, with that, we will close out tonight. Thank
you, everybody, for joining us. Thank you. And
I appreciate everybody for tuning in and jumping
on the call tonight. And if you are listening,
thanks for making it all the way to episode 22.
So thank you and good night. Good night.