The following is a bonus episode recorded in
question and answer format with Michaela in 2020.
Your host Paul Robbins is currently serving in
Israel, but will return on February 10th. Welcome
to Journey from Jacob. From our first breath
to our last heartbeat, we are all on a journey.
Jacob was a biblical character whose journey
is documented for our benefit. Like all of us,
there were unforgettable moments along the way,
which required decisiveness. One of those decisions
determined his destination. We will not only
discuss Jacob's journey, but Israel's as well,
right up to date. May this podcast inspire you
to make choices along your way that will benefit
others and guide you to the destination we all
long for. The last podcast we talked about the
struggle and needless to say it was a struggle.
I don't know that it came across that way to
listeners but... After that podcast, we went
to go ahead and move on and we're listening to
it over again at the end. And we came upon this
issue that was it sounded like I was saying the
struggle was equal to salvation, that that was
a salvation moment. And that led us into a lot
of questions and struggles. And we ended up talking
for about three hours about this. And I think
at the end of it, we came to. this moment of
realizing that the way that I'm talking about
this thing and the way that my grandfather who
was with us and Paul was talking about this thing
are a very different way of talking, or at least
that we have different views. So I'm going to
kind of get into that here now, which is the
idea that I was struggling with was this idea
of testimony theology is how I've been phrasing
it for myself. And what I mean by that is that
the testimony is the paramount of the Christian
faith. Testimony is I was bad, I had an experience
with Jesus, then I was good. Good meaning I'm
supposed to be all of these things at this point,
almost like a religious good. I'm good enough
now that I need to do all of these correct things.
I've had this conversation with a lot of people
since then because I've been struggling through
it myself, maybe very similar to Jacob's struggle.
And as I've had this conversation, I've been
dismissed by more adults than I can possibly
count. Mostly, I feel that as I've had this conversation,
adults have heard me and said, no, no, no. Like,
you're wrong. Testimonies are correct. Whatever.
And as I've spoken to kids my age and to youth,
I. lead and work with quite a few different youth
in my area. And one specific time with a group
of about 10 ninth to 10th grade girls, I was
speaking to them about this idea and some of
the stuff that I was struggling with even as
a leader. I don't know if you're supposed to
do that, but I was. And they all agreed with
the same struggle that I had, which was this
idea that a testimony is faith. Testimony is
Jesus, the idea that you're bad and then you're
supposed to be good. and this supposed to be
good, as far as I've kind of digested it, leads
to two separate paths. I call it the bad kid
-good kid path. So you are bad, you have an experience
with Jesus, and you say yes to him, and then
you choose the bad kid or the good kid path,
which is... you hear Jesus saves me, I'm fine.
You're supposed to mess up at this point. I don't
say all the time like it's fine. You're going
to mess up after you're good now, but you're
going to mess up and there's going to be struggle.
And what they're trying to talk about is sanctification,
discipleship. But what the bad kid hears, this
has been me, is I'm good now and I'm going to
keep messing up and Jesus is going to keep forgiving
me. So I will just go ahead and do the bad thing.
because I'm good now, so it's fine. The good
kid, I've also been this kid, I just got so mad
with it that I became a bad kid. The good kid
mentality from this point on is, okay, so I was
bad, then I found Jesus, now I'm supposed to
be good, so what does that good look like? I'm
supposed to go to church, I'm supposed to read
my Bible, I'm supposed to be loving, I'm supposed
to be caring, all these supposed to's. And they
know, I knew that I wasn't. good, like I was
supposed to be. But I faked it because I felt
like that's what everyone else around me was
doing. It's like everyone else is putting on
this good face as well. And clearly, because
I can't manage to do this on my own, it must
be a face for all of them. So I'm just going
to join the Christian church mask, the Christian
church masquerade, and I'm going to stand up
when I'm supposed to stand up and raise my hands
and I'm supposed to raise my hands. And then
I'm going to feel. incredibly guilty because
I can't read my Bible or pray like I'm supposed
to, and I don't have enough scriptures in my
Bible highlighted, and it becomes this whole
competition of who can be more spiritual. And
you're trying your best to be the good that you're
supposed to be, and then you finally hit this
point of existential crisis, as is actually very
common for people my age and younger of, wait,
what is the whole point? There is no purpose
in this. There's no life in this. So I'm done.
Jesus saved me and I know that so I'm just gonna
go to bad kid theology because it works a lot
better It's quite a bit easier to just go like
drink and party and do whatever I want and know
that like I'm going to heaven So it's fine It's
it's kind of it's easier than like trying so
hard to be good So I'll just do that which leads
to more suffering and existential crises because
once you found God sin doesn't feel so good anymore
And so it just gets real messy So Paul, this
is kind of what I've come to from our conversations
as far as that's the place in the mentality and
the theology that I feel in some ways that I've
been raised in. Maybe inadvertently, most adults
get really mad at me when I say that I was raised
in that theology because they were the ones that
raised me and they don't agree that I was raised
that way. But I think that's what I was inadvertently
taught. And I'm wondering what you have to say
about it. Well, that's quite simple, huh? Easy
answer. Yeah, really. You've really left nothing
much to talk about. So let me ask you a question,
then. Yeah, of course. Are you happy where you
are in Jesus? Mostly. And how do you describe
yourself now? Without any previous teaching,
how would you make up your brand new Michaela?
At this point in time? I would say that As of
now, branding my Kayla is mostly good, mostly
resting in Christ, mostly peaceful, mostly doing
what's right, but also greatly not okay, greatly
still a sinner and greatly still quite confused
about what this whole thing is supposed to look
like. Okay. So where do we go from here? Good
question. I think that the Bible has a lot to
say about this. And I agree with you, there's
a lot that has not been said. And so we rest
on certain portions of scripture to give us credence
to what we believe of ourselves. Everyone struggles
with the same thing as a human being, you know,
because we are very complex beings. And I think
when we try to look for this experience centered
testimony theology that you're talking about,
We have a problem when we go into the Old Testament
to find enough illustration to say, oh, this
is very defining point for certain individuals
in the Old Testament, including Jacob. Last time
we spoke, we spoke about his wrestling match,
which is a really important part of the scripture,
because Jacob wrestles with the God of the universe
and God leaves him with this blessing that he
was longing for. So he knew inside of him there
was something missing. That's a critical element
of the story. There was something missing in
his humanity that he knew was offered to him
because God gave the promise to his grandfather
Abraham and then to Isaac that you would be blessed
and through you all the families of the earth
would be blessed. So there was some component
that was going to be human in nature but come
from God. So it was going to be inserted from
the God of the universe into the being of a human
Adam Abraham first then Isaac But then he promised
it that it was going to come through Jacob the
blessing was going to come through Jacob We know
this at the point where we talked about last
week that God had said it was going to come through
Jacob not Esau But Jacob didn't have it at this
point in the story last week when he wrestles
with God That was his whole point. God was said.
Hey, let's just quit Jacob, we've been wrestling
all the way into the break of day. Let's stop
now." And he said, not until you bless me. So
he wanted it so much. Is that what made him save
that he wanted it so much, that he struggled
so hard, that he lasted through the night? Is
that a salvation story? I don't think that's
really what is the real primary purpose of that
story. Whether he got saved that night or not
is really not clear. if that was his moment in
time. So what I want to say to you and to your
generation is that there doesn't have to be a
moment in time that defines when you become a
Christian, when you become saved, when you become
born again. I think that's a really helpful thing
that we need to hear almost a couple of times
because a lot of kids of my age that are even
interested in a podcast like this are kids that
have grown up in the church. I would like to
be blunt and say most kids who haven't grown
up in the church probably won't listen to this
and also haven't stepped foot in the church probably
ever. But kids who have are the ones that would
be interested and the ones who are struggling
with this. And so... You're talking at least
with my age and below to a generation of kids
who probably don't have a moment really Because
they accepted Christ when they were five Accepted
Christ if we're talking about that salvation
moment that's supposed to be this big testimony
That happened when they were five and they've
also probably started wondering why the heck
things weren't different and then if They were
a good kid. They probably didn't do anything
quite wrong through high school, but if they
were a bad kid you know, air quotes on both of
these. They probably ran off and did all this
bad stuff. And so now they feel like they maybe
have a secondary testimony. And what does that
mean? There's a lot of things that start coming
into issue when you are raised in a church and
you're like, I wasn't 30 on the floor of my own
house when I had kids and decided to find Christ.
I've grown up in this. So what do you mean a
testimony that is when I was saved? I don't have
that. Am I wrong? Was I not saved? What's going
on? This whole schizophrenic thing you've kind
of mentioned a couple of times, not on the podcast,
but to me personally, of the questions start
getting schizophrenic. It's like, what does this
mean? Am I saved? Is everything OK? Start twitching
a little bit. So I mean, these are really valid
questions. I would say that, number one, the
Old Testament is not going to teach us moments
of salvation. So if we're looking for that in
characters in the Old Testament, we won't find
it that way. It might seem that way, and sometimes,
but not. But the second thing, but this is even
actually the primary thing, is that Jesus came
to save sinners, right? That's clear. From the
New Testament on, it becomes very clear. But
Jesus is introducing concepts that were confusing
to them. Now remember, the first time he said
anything about being born again was to Nicodemus,
who was a teacher of Israel. He was a member
of the Sanhedrin. He was supposed to know things
that most people didn't because he was trained
in not only Jewish thought, but biblical thought.
So he had the background of the Commonwealth
of Israel, but also this Strong biblical teaching
that his whole life was centered around and when
Jesus told him that you must be born from above
You must be born of the spirit because that which
is of the spirit is spiritual in nature So it's
born of the spirit and that which is born of
the flesh is flesh So he was talking about a
human being being two different natures right
away not two different natures, but two different
parts So without going to details at this point
Jesus does say to him that you must be born again.
And he says that as a general, wide open conversation
to all of humanity from that point on, Nicodemus
had trouble understanding it because it was never
that black and white before. And so to think
in terms of black and white is a mistake for
us. So to say. To say that a person has to have
an experience in order to be saved is not valid.
It's not biblical. There are people that have
an experience that is identifiable in time and
there are others that don't. So like you're talking
about this five -year -old who had this love
affair with God from that age and doesn't remember
it ever stopping, always loving and respecting,
wanting to please God because there was something
inside of her or him that was geared in that
direction is a good, to me, that would be a factor
in saying, well, this child has come to faith
at an early age when, you know, we don't know
for sure, but certainly has lived underneath
this banner of relationship. from that point
in time or from the earliest we could ever tell.
Jacob, he had an experience with God. He got
as close. And this is really, I think, much more
the conversation is that Jacob got as close to
God as he can get because God began the match
with Jacob. God's the one that started the wrestling
match. And just think of wrestling. It's an embrace.
You can't get closer to another person than in
a wrestling match. It's just your sweat is his
sweat, et cetera. It's very messy human experience
between two people, but it's intimate. And so
in order for a relationship with God to start,
it has to be relational. And so if we're going
to talk about salvation, the experience is secondary
to the relationship that we witness as a result
of some point in time. So you would then say
with the whole Nicodemus example that God saying
you have to be rebirthed in spirit is also being
born again into that spiritual relationship with
God. Mm hmm. Yes. So then that kid who was been
raised in the church, you know, had that relationship
start basically when they were little and has
always lived in that even though they don't have
this big moment are obviously clearly saved or.
Right. OK. And they can have the confidence.
I think that's what's missing. is the confidence,
because as far as I can see in my generation,
kids who have always had Christ eventually have
to get to this point of weight. this has been
happening since the beginning. But every single
time I go to church or youth group or a big conference,
they're telling me to rededicate my life or get
saved again. And that's all I hear is get saved
again, get saved again, or rededicate or get
saved or whatever. And all these kids are like,
but what comes next? And there's no teaching
of what comes next as far as I've seen. in my
limited experience. There's not much teaching
for these kids about what comes next. So they
eventually start to question if it ever happened.
I started to question if it ever happened. And
I remember specifically throughout my years in
high school, crying literally because I wanted
God so badly, but I had no clue how to get to
him. And people say, you know, read your Bible,
pray. And I say, but they're just empty words
on a page. Like I try, I read, I do whatever
I can. I talk to them if I can, but there's nothing
there. There's no breakthrough. I don't know
what I'm supposed to be doing. And all I'm hearing
from church people is, well, you're saved, it's
fine. You're good. Or get saved, and then you'll
be better. The Bible makes it very clear that
there's none righteous but God, there's none
good but God. And those are conversations that
the prophets had. Those are the conversations
that the New Testament records and repeats. There
is none good but God. So if we are trying to
say that I am good, and we have the expression,
how are you doing? Oh, I'm good. You want a cup
of coffee? No, I'm good. I'm like, I didn't ask
you if you're good. I asked you if you want a
cup of coffee, but you brought in the conversation
that you're good. So we have this very casual
conversation about what good means. But a very
interesting thing happened in to Jesus when he
was met by this rich young ruler who had everything
going for him. The disciples were like, wow,
this dude is coming. He wants to be part of our
team. You know, this is amazing. He's got everything
in life. Welcome him, Jesus. And he comes to
Jesus and he said, hey, you know, we kind of
recognize there's something very special about
you, good teacher. What must I do to please God?
What good thing do I have to do? And he goes,
why do you call me good? There's none good but
God. Now, was Jesus saying that he wasn't good?
Or was he saying that he was God? Because there's
none good but God. He never said I'm not good,
but he did say that there's none good but God.
So in essence, he is literally saying that Hey,
I'm God. Well, if I'm good, I'm God. Exactly.
So that's in math, right? If A equals B and B
equals C, then A equals C. So we learned that
right in algebra. If you call me good, then you're
calling me God. Exactly. And there's no one else
but God that's good. So what do you mean when
you say good? Right. But everyone thought of
him as being good. But at the same time, he went
away sad. So why would a good man go away sad?
Because Jesus kind of put into the test, you
know, have you really done all the things that
Moses commanded you like you said you have since
you're a kid? So he was saying that I'm good.
I've always been in the church, quote unquote,
air quote, as you say. So he was one of those
kids thinking that he was good, but still he
came to Jesus because he knew that there was
something missing inside of him. And this is
the point that we're trying to make, is that
when you recognize, no one has to tell somebody
that they're born again. So there's something
inside of you that is qualifying you in a relationship
with the God of the universe that you know is
your own, that no one could take from. because
we're products of our environment, we're products
of our teaching, our growing up experience, many,
many things, we're complex, our lives are very
complex, then it's easy to get confused along
the way. Being a Christian also has the added
element of you have an enemy that the world does
not have, and that's Satan, the serpent. He shows
up in the beginning of the story. We can never
dismiss him from our story because he was given
a place from the beginning because of the fall
of man to be able to bruise the heel of the seed
of the woman, which is Eve. So it's hard not
to go back to the beginning, but in order to
understand the story properly, we do have to
go back to the beginning because they're all
products of what happened in the beginning. So
when God, when they didn't do what they were
supposed to do was one thing, there was only
one do not. do, which was to eat from the tree
of the knowledge of good and evil. So because
they took a bite of that fruit, both of them,
they were both there together, they took a bite
of that, then the cause of their consequence
was their disobedience. They didn't choose their
consequence because God didn't really delineate
it. He just said, you will die. In dying, you
will die. It literally means that if you eat
of the fruit of this tree, you will die. Now
it sounds like they were going to fall down dead,
but that's not what the word means. It means
that in dying, you will die. So they didn't die.
They didn't physically die. So what part of them
died? Well, the part of them died is their spiritual
nature. It didn't die spiritually. not have a
spirit anymore because the body without a spirit
is dead, the body is dead, but their spirit began
to die. Spiritually, the New Testament calls
it, you're spiritually dead. So the spirit cannot
function anymore in communication with God like
it once did. That's what happened to Adam and
Eve. Remember that God made all the creatures
of the world, fish, birds, everything. But there's
only one of his created genius that was breathed
into, and that was Adam, and from Adam, Eve.
So Eve was within Adam. God breathed into Adam
and gave life to them. It was spiritual life.
That's what made the difference between Adam
and Eve and the animal world. They had a spirit.
The animals have a soul, but not a spirit. When
I'd look in my dog's eyes, I'm looking deep into
my dog, but I'm not looking into his spirit.
When I look into your eyes, I see there's something
spiritual there that my dog does not have. Now
people get upset with that, but I love dogs,
but he still doesn't have a spirit. You know,
he has a sweet soul, and sometimes not that sweet,
but he does not have a spirit. So when Jesus,
when God delineated man from the beast, it's
because he breathed into him. That's what made
the difference. When we understand Hebrew, the
Hebrew word for spirit is Ruach. The same word
means wind. So when we start to listen to the
voice of Jesus with Nicodemus, we hear him talking
spiritual words when he uses the word wind and
spirit. Same word. So man has the spirit, but
the spirit becomes a problem because when he
said that you shall surely die, it's the spirit
that began to die. Adam and Eve knew it instantly.
They felt like, oh my God, what happened to us?
We're missing something. We're naked. Why did
they not know they were naked before? Because
God was their covering. It was a spiritual relationship
they had with God that was a covering. They never
felt naked. All of a sudden they felt naked and
ashamed because they no longer had a covering.
Their spirit was exposed to things it never was
exposed to before and it was beginning to fall
apart for them. And so we all fall into that
same category. There was a problem that began
in the garden that we all are experiencing the
consequences from. Go ahead. I was going to say
this all feels fairly basic to me. I'm like,
yeah, yeah, got it. Spiritual death, dah, dah,
dah, dah, dah. Like, I don't know. It all has
made sense to me until now. And I'm sure there's
a certain extent where people don't feel like
that makes sense. I think what doesn't make sense
to me is Okay, I'm supposed to have this point
where I get spiritual life. I'm supposed to be
born again, like Jesus said to Nicodemus. That's
supposed to happen. Then what? Because that's
where everyone stops. This is why everyone's
confused, though, because you want... Look, let's
get over the Old Testament stuff. It's full of
stories. No, I'm not trying to say get over it
or jump ahead. What I'm trying to say is... That's
what that's all I've ever been told. Oh, I know
my whole life All I've been told is there's this
big long story that ends with you getting saved
and being born again, ta -da Right, but see this
we this is this is really the problem. We take
a javelin and we throw it as far as we can over
the Old Testament into the New Testament, and
with both feet on the ground like a high jumper,
a pole vaulter would be better, and we just jump
into the New Testament. Jesus is just born in
the manger. Let's go for it. And now it starts.
But we miss the whole story that builds up to
this, which is a story of struggle. It's a consistent
story of human struggle. And so to think that
that struggle ends in the New Testament, this
is what unfortunately has been portrayed in churches
too often is that, hey, you're good to go now.
You came to the altar. Didn't you come to the
altar? I saw you here like six months ago. Weren't
you? You're born again. Go for it. You know,
you're good to go. That's like saying, cast out
the entire story of the Old Testament and say
it's invalid, it's irrelevant because now we
have Jesus and we're good to go. But then we
have this, it's like if we saw spiritually when
we came to church, we'd see all these people
coming in wheelchairs and crutches and walkers
and spiritually that's what they look like in
God's eyes. They're limp, they're blaming and
they can't hear and they can't see because we
don't have the same discipleship experience.
which you talked about briefly, that the disciples,
the original, the first time we hear about disciples
is with Jesus' disciples. And they had an experience
with him. What was that all about? And so did
Jesus say, OK, you're born again, next. You're
born again, next. You're born again. You're born
again. And just go through all of Israel. Everyone
just comes to the altar. They hear this Middle
Eastern music behind them. And they get saved.
And now fill out this card. We'll contact you
sometime in the future. Clearly not. is often
what it feels like the church has presented me
with. But that's that's the church that I've
been given. OK, so now here's the real thing
for you and your generation is let's skip the
blame game anymore, because, yeah, that is what
I was handed. So I got a bad I got a bad package
of information. It's not all bad, but some of
it is really has caused me confusion. So now
the responsibility is on your side. This is what
we really want to convey. So, yeah, you've been
given some a mixed bag of understanding of what
this life is as a believer. But I have to go
back to the beginning when Adam and Eve, we're
going to say that they were the first human beings,
but we're also going to say they're the first
disciples because now they have to learn a new
way of living. in the struggle. They didn't have
the struggle before. So this is where we all
identify with the first Adam and the first Eve.
They began the struggle. And God introduces the
struggle with Adam. He says, OK, Adam, you're
going to struggle. with making a living. It's
going to be tough for you. These roses that you
used to give Eve all the time, now they're going
to have thorns on them. When you pick a rose,
it's going to make you bleed, Adam. When you
pull garden vegetables out of your garden, you're
going to fight mosquitoes that bite and weeds
that are overgrown, things like that you never
had before. It's going to be a struggle for you,
Adam. Eve, you're going to have a struggle giving
birth. What's birth? I never had it. baby before,
what's that all about? You're going to see it's
going to be a struggle. It wasn't intended to
be, but it will be. And so she starts learning
things about the struggle when she first has
her first child. But he says one other thing
when he says to the serpent that you are cursed.
He doesn't curse Adam, he doesn't curse Eve.
He curses the ground because of their sake, and
he curses the serpent. To the serpent he says
you are going to have access to the heel of the
woman. the seed of the woman, not to the woman
herself, the seed, her descendants. What are
you going to have access to? You're going to
be able to bruise that heel. But the seed of
the woman is going to crush your head. So there's
a huge conflict that is introduced in the garden
between the serpent and the seed of the woman.
Now, without knowing all the details of that,
we do know that history is going to be marked
by this conflict. The serpent will be able to
prove the seed of the woman who we don't know
that is yet, but that we know it means Zerah
is the Hebrew word. It means descendant or offspring.
So we know that her descendants at some point
are going to be bruised by the serpent. He's
going to have that access. What does the heel
represent? Well, it's the back of your foot.
And so it represents a person walking, but every
now and then something is going to grab that
heel and make it hard to walk. So the walk is
going to be painful at times. So that's talking
about a struggle. Right away we're introduced
to the struggle of humanity. All of humanity?
Well, so far it is. It's the seed of Eve. She's
the only woman. But yet there's no children yet,
but we can expect these things. Expect the struggle
of the man as separate from the struggle of the
woman, and then separately altogether a curse
that allows the serpent to... mess with the walk
of those that will come after. Right. And so
we don't know who those are yet, but as the story
goes on, we see the struggle immediately in the
next episode, which is two brothers, both descendants
of Eve and Cain and Abel. One kills the other
and the one who does the murderer, Cain, it goes
into exile and Eve is left with no sons. And
the next story we see that shows up, the major
episode, is that she's pregnant again, and she's
going to give birth to a boy. She realizes he's
a boy, and she names him Seth. And she says,
perhaps he is the appointed one, because it wasn't
Cain or Abel. Abel died, and it wasn't Cain.
But God said I would have an offspring, a child
would come from me, that would crush the head
of the serpent. And he has done so much damage
so far, I'm ready for my son to crush his head.
And I'm going to name him Seth, because Seth
means appointed. He is appointed to do it. Well,
it wasn't Seth. We don't see the enemy crushed.
But we do follow from that point on all of the
offspring of Seth. It just goes from Seth on.
Well, it gets almost humorous at this point when
you're reading the Bible, if you kind of have
any context. If you're reading at that point
and she's like, maybe this is the one and you're
like, haha, sweetie, do you see how big this
book is? He's not the one. It's not him. And
then we move on. time after time after time from
Noah to Abraham to Isaac to Jacob. And every
single time, I mean, as a reader of the Bible,
if you didn't know what was happening further
on, you were probably even kind of saying, is
this the one that's finally going to end this
struggle? Because it's clearly throughout the
whole Old Testament a struggle. We could go from
person to person to person to person and see
that struggle. You're right, we can. And as we
travel through the Old Testament, that's what
we're seeing, a huge amount of struggle. Yeah,
like you mentioned in Noah's day, by that time
the hearts of men were wicked continuously. So
God had to start over. So the struggle is there,
but is the struggle from man to man, from woman
to woman, from man to woman, woman to man? It's
a human struggle in a degree, but it's a spiritual...
rooted struggle, because the serpent, we learn
later, is a spirit. He's an angel. He's an angel
that fell, just like Adam fell, and he's getting
back at God for God casting him out of heaven.
And his vision is to get to God through his creation.
The creation that he said was good, incidentally,
right from the beginning. didn't stay good. So
we do have a big issue about what good means,
but it's a spiritual conversation that we have
to have in order to understand what it is in
the very foundation of it, the root of good.
So we see that man and God can have a relationship.
We see that happening with Enoch. He walked with
God and and We see that the serpent is out to
create a havoc in the world Through the heart
of man to make it wicked and he's successful
at it. So He's not he's got limited capabilities,
but he does have capabilities And we could discuss
that in another point. I'm sure we will. But
I think it's very important to keep in mind right
from the beginning what this discipleship thing
we're calling about. It has to maintain its spiritual
level in order for it to be understood in its
fullest context, because the spirit of man is
the problem. Because remember, he said, you won't
die immediately. Adam lived till he's like 900
something. So obviously that guy did not mean
he'd have instinct, he wouldn't have a heart
attack and die. But in dying, you shall die is
what it says. So his spirit is dying as his spirit
is dying, his body is dying. There was no death
before that. Death came after sin. So Adam starting
to die, the dying process, the process of dying
is the same thing that we experience at a much
more limited level in our time than Adam did.
What do you mean by limited? We don't have as
much time. That makes sense. One thing that or
thought that's coming to me out of all of this
is first off, it feels like this in no way answers
my questions. And I feel like that's how God
works. Anyway, oftentimes the question that you
have, the answer is a lot longer, a lot more
complex and a lot less of a seeming answer than
it. It doesn't seem like the answer. as you're
listening. And I feel like that's what this is.
I'm like, this isn't the answer. That's not what
I'm saying. I'm trying to say what next? And
you're saying you have to understand that you're
spiritually broken first. You have to get to
that point. And as you're speaking and talking
about all of these characters in the Bible, I'm
immediately like, but jump to me. Jump to Jesus.
What do you mean? Like, like this part doesn't
matter as much, which is what you were saying
earlier, that we just keep getting taught to
kind of throw the spear over the Old Testament
and get to the New Testament. Um, but I keep
coming to this thought of, wait, you mean these
people post Adam and Eve had spiritual life with
God. And in my context of church right now, I'm
like, wait, you mean they're going to heaven?
They didn't have Jesus. How does that work? How
could, how could Noah go to heaven? How could
Enoch go to heaven? I mean, it says that Enoch
didn't die, but he went to heaven. But he didn't
have Jesus. OK, David, he's, you know, this good
king, you know, both horrible and good. But of
course, we're not none of us are good. But the
Bible says he was a man after God's own heart.
And I'm like, but he doesn't have Jesus. Could
he have gone to heaven? And it's this continual
concept that I think is quite flawed of the end
goal being heaven. Yeah, and. So, you know, when
Jesus was asked a question, he rarely answered
it. Very rarely answered it. He answered it with
a question. And there's reason for that. And
I think it's a really good way. It's his method
of discipling. So you want answers. You want
answers that are going to satisfy you. You want
a drive -by Jesus. You want a 2 % Jesus. You
know, milk used to be measured in percentages.
We don't do that much anymore. So there's like
4 % was like really close to being milk, which
isn't much milk at all. It's only 4 % cream.
And two percent became the acceptable one. But
skim milk was the one that if you were, you know,
if you if you just wanted to like a little dab
of milk to look like milk, but it really didn't
taste like milk. So you're talking about a two
percent Jesus, basically, is what you're looking
for. I'm wanting a social media Jesus, I think.
OK, I read one of his posts. I'm like, oh, cool.
He's doing pretty good. Just scroll right past.
Yeah, right. You drive by Jesus. And so that's
where we've come come to the age of that. But
it's unacceptable to God. So. We can't expect
to get the full Jesus when we have a drive by
mentality. I'm wanting to sit with you for half
an hour and to have my questions and all the
questions of those who are listening and probably
as frustrated as me or more frustrated by how
frustrated I am to just have the answer that
we're all going to have to just chill us all
out. Well, I think that it has to be rooted in
this fact that either you're made spiritually
new or you're not yet spiritually new. So there's
two different kinds of beings in this world.
Not so much Christian and non -Christian, but
have you been made spiritually alive? Because
in Adam we are spiritually dead. If you're made
spiritually alive, that means you have a capability
of having this relationship with God that is
enormous, that is endless, ceaseless, there's
no limitations to it. It's the experience that
we talked about initially about being born again.
The legitimacy of that comes from the spiritual
life that proceeds from that experience. And
the same thing with the young child. Like I have
a granddaughter, I'll say specifically, that
is... I know that I have fellowship with her
since she's like three years old. Fellowship,
I mean. Worshiping together since she's three.
Now, I can't say that with all of my grandchildren,
but I had that same kind of fellowship with her,
which is very unique. I'm not saying that my
other grandchildren are not born again, but it
just... it just with her specifically, it was
something very unique at a very early age that
was identifiable that this girl is in touch with
God. I want to have fellowship with her. She's
not just cute, you know, I just want to be around
her because she has this love for God that is
sincere and real. So will she ever be able to
say, oh, I got saved when I was, you know, I
was on the, you know, I was, I was in the bathroom
one day and I just I was two and a half years
old, you know, and, and I just had this experience,
you know, probably not. But that doesn't make
her any less a child of God. And now she's eight
years old and I still see this life in her and
I expect to see it on into eternity. But that
doesn't mean she doesn't struggle. See, this
is an interesting thing. I see now the struggles
because the human side and the enemy, which we
can never forget about, is out to bruise the
heel. What does the heel mean? It signifies your
walk. Remember Jacob? God touched his hip. And
what happened to Jacob? It says that he never
walked the same again. He walked with a limp.
So literally, he didn't walk the same again.
When we're walking as a human being, we're walking
as fallen creatures. We always fall. Not every
day, not every moment. We don't limp through
life in a sense, but we have fallen capacity
because of that nature. But when Jesus touches
us, we don't walk the same anymore. We don't
walk with this spiritual limp anymore. We take
a different step. We have a high step. Our chin
is up from now on. There's a difference in the
way we live and move because of Him, not because
we're good. It's because of Him and He is good.
So I think so to get back to to the story It's
rather than pole vaulting You know into the cradle
where Jesus was born and see how cute he was
and say I want to be cute like Jesus You know,
he was so sweet and every kind and never did
anything wrong so I want to be like him and I
want him to always be my friend, you know and
go to heaven together and And then and then let's
go on we got we'll settle that we'll go on living
and doing whatever that takes to be as good as
I can be and be settled in that way. And to me,
I think what you're saying isn't the thing that
anyone actually wants. No, that's the problem.
I think we keep getting told that that's what
we want, but it's wrong. That's not what I want.
I don't want an easy life. I don't want everything
to be perfect. I'm just told that's how it's
supposed to be. And why is it not? And I think
what you said answered that fairly well, which
was there's a difference between spiritual life
and spiritual death and you who are spiritually
alive and you who are spiritually dead but being
spiritually alive means generally a struggle
or that there will be struggles there always
are struggles in life but specifically a struggle
that makes you not walk the same again that you
won't walk the same and you will continue to
experience struggle as in the struggle doesn't
ever quite end, is at least the way that I'm
hearing it. But there is a difference in the
way that you walk. Definitely. So let me make
something else a little bit more clear. So if
we are a spirit being, we got this down, right?
All humanity, because we proceed from Adam. So
we have this spirit God has given to us and that
spirit Needs redemption right because it's it's
spiritually dark and that's why we see good and
evil, you know, but Where does it come that some
people seem to be wicked or badder than other
people and some people just seem to be They should
be good enough to go to heaven. It should just
because of their behavior. I mean we measure
by the way we see people So the the the confusion
I think takes on maybe a new level of education,
something we need to learn about this struggle.
Because how do we go from the spirit to the natural?
Because we all live in the natural, right? We
live in this world. We see each other, touch
each other. So this is the world we live in.
We don't see the spirit. The things that are
spiritual are not seen. And the Bible makes that
very clear. It says that. What is man then? If
he's a spirit and he's natural, how does one,
the natural part, affected by the spiritual part?
Well, there's one other element of the human
nature that needs to be discussed, and that is
the soul. So the New Testament says that we're
to be sanctified body, soul, and spirit. So there's
three parts to us. Some would say there's only
two. I would disagree. I think it's really important.
The Bible says about us and stick to it. It says
that we are body, soul and spirit. So then we
have to say, OK, well, what is this soul thing
about then? If it's different than the spirit.
Well, the soul and the spirit are very close
in nature. The body is clearly different. It's
our mechanism. We take away the heart of the
brain and the body doesn't function. It looks
the same momentarily, but it's soon to decay
completely. So, what then is the function of
this third piece of information that you're telling
me? This third mechanism, if you will. What does
it do? What is the soul's function? Well, the
soul, like the spirit, is capable of thinking,
it's capable of feeling, and it's capable of
making decisions. So, within our soul is what
we would call heart and soul. We kind of separate
the two, but really the heart of the man is within
the soul. So we are capable of feeling and thinking
and making decisions with our soul. If we are
made of spirit, soul, and body, then the body
is the part that's really the least important
because it fades and dies. The soul of man, we're
told later on, returns to God. It's the spirit
that becomes made alive when we're born again.
So the spirit is what God is tending to. When
he speaks to this Nicodemus at night, he said,
you must be born of the spirit. And why is that?
Because your spirit needs to come alive in order
for you to have a clear communication, conversation
and way of living. So we are going to end really
soon. Yeah. But I think this is really a good
place to end because what happens next is really
what's critical to who we are. Is it a matter
of becoming good? Is it a matter of being good?
Is it a matter of that God is good and God lives
within me and therefore I am good? These are
questions I think that may still need to be answered,
but I'm going to leave with - Yeah, what gets
me to the place that I'm good. I often don't
even struggle with that. I just struggle with
what's next. Okay, I'm good. Fine. I guess I
had that moment that I was supposed to have,
and I'm spiritually born again or not, or what
does that exactly look like? But how do I move
forward if I believe this? You know, the Bible
says that if you believe in your heart that Jesus
is Lord and... I'm struggling with scripture
now, I love that. Believe that Jesus is Lord
and say that God raised him from the dead and
basically believe in who he is, that you will
be saved. And I'm like, got it, I did that. I
know that. Not even just a check marked box.
That's not what that means to me, it's something
deeper. But I don't know how to move forward,
period. Nobody's taught me how. And I'm. I haven't
found much basis in the Bible personally beyond
you will struggle and you have to become XYZ
to really help me move forward. So what's next?
That's my question. We bless you for taking the
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