WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.560 Welcome to today's Deep Dive, everyone. I am 00:00:02.560 --> 00:00:05.879 really excited about this one because we're looking 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:09.480 at a story that is just wild. Oh, it's absolutely 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:11.460 fascinating. Right. So we are digging into this 00:00:11.460 --> 00:00:14.480 really detailed source material today, specifically 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:17.100 a Wikipedia article outlining the history of 00:00:17.100 --> 00:00:21.120 the American OI and street punk band The Antiheroes. 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:23.480 Which is such a specific and intense subculture 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:26.019 to explore. It really is. And the mission for 00:00:26.019 --> 00:00:28.300 today's Deep Dive is to explore how an independent 00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:32.859 band navigates the incredibly treacherous waters 00:00:32.859 --> 00:00:35.340 of the music industry. We're gonna look at how 00:00:35.340 --> 00:00:37.899 they fought a major Hollywood studio to protect 00:00:37.899 --> 00:00:40.539 their identity and how they managed to maintain 00:00:40.539 --> 00:00:43.520 a legacy that spans literally decades. Yeah, 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:45.320 and to really understand the mechanics of this 00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:48.829 story, we need to... established the foundational 00:00:48.829 --> 00:00:50.869 facts from the source. So the anti -heroes formed 00:00:50.869 --> 00:00:53.509 in Georgia back in 1984. Which, just right off 00:00:53.509 --> 00:00:55.969 the bat, Georgia in the 80s is a very specific 00:00:55.969 --> 00:00:58.409 scene. Exactly. And the original lineup consisted 00:00:58.409 --> 00:01:01.869 of Mark Noah on vocals, Mike Jones on bass, Tim 00:01:01.869 --> 00:01:04.849 Spear on drums, and Joe Winograd on guitar. Okay, 00:01:04.950 --> 00:01:06.650 let's unpack this. Because when you say they're 00:01:06.650 --> 00:01:11.090 an oi and street punk band... Some people listening 00:01:11.090 --> 00:01:13.469 might not know exactly what that means. Right, 00:01:13.569 --> 00:01:15.790 that's fair. For you listening, even if you aren't 00:01:15.790 --> 00:01:17.629 a punk rock fan, this is a totally universal 00:01:17.629 --> 00:01:20.189 story. It's really about the struggle to maintain 00:01:20.189 --> 00:01:23.230 ownership over your hard work and your personal 00:01:23.230 --> 00:01:25.750 reputation. Yeah, it's about control. Exactly. 00:01:26.290 --> 00:01:29.430 But to answer your question, OI is a sub -genre 00:01:29.430 --> 00:01:33.099 that started in the UK. in the late 70s. It was 00:01:33.099 --> 00:01:35.620 essentially a working -class reaction to mainstream 00:01:35.620 --> 00:01:38.439 punk, which a lot of kids felt was getting too 00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:40.480 commercialized. Like it was losing its edge. 00:01:40.900 --> 00:01:43.340 Yeah, getting disconnected from everyday reality. 00:01:43.939 --> 00:01:46.659 Musically, it's very raw, very aggressive, lots 00:01:46.659 --> 00:01:49.640 of driving rhythms and these huge stadium -style 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:51.640 sing -along choruses. Oh, like football chants? 00:01:52.060 --> 00:01:55.120 Spot on. And street punk is just the closely 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:57.700 related American derivative of that. the whole 00:01:57.700 --> 00:02:00.140 ethos is just rooted in working class solidarity 00:02:00.140 --> 00:02:03.599 and like really fierce independence. Which brings 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:06.700 us to the late 1980s because that independence 00:02:06.700 --> 00:02:08.719 got tested pretty much immediately. It really 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:12.020 did. So the band releases two records on a label 00:02:12.020 --> 00:02:14.460 called Link Records. You've got the album that's 00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:18.759 right in 1987 and then Don't Tread on Me in 1988. 00:02:19.500 --> 00:02:21.300 Both of these were produced by John Blackwell, 00:02:21.460 --> 00:02:23.819 right? Correct. And it's also worth noting that 00:02:23.819 --> 00:02:26.699 right around this time, in 1988, Phil Solomon 00:02:26.699 --> 00:02:29.539 actually stepped in to replace Tim Spear on drums. 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:32.439 OK, got it. But I really want to focus on the 00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:34.939 business side of those two Link Records releases, 00:02:35.419 --> 00:02:37.599 because the source material points out something 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:40.780 that is just infuriating. Oh, the financial arrangement. 00:02:40.979 --> 00:02:43.639 Yes. The band members actually paid to produce 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:46.240 these recordings themselves. out of their own 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:48.599 pockets. But the manager of Link Records, Mark 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:50.620 Brennan, never paid the band for them. Yeah, 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:52.879 they got completely stiffed. It's unbelievable. 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:56.620 When I read that, it felt like an unpaid internship 00:02:56.620 --> 00:02:59.080 where you actually pay the company to work there. 00:02:59.219 --> 00:03:00.979 That's a great way to put it. Right. It's like 00:03:00.979 --> 00:03:03.020 you go to the store, you buy all the ingredients, 00:03:03.139 --> 00:03:05.219 you spend hours baking a cake, and then you just 00:03:05.219 --> 00:03:07.699 hand it over to a bakery. And then you have to 00:03:07.699 --> 00:03:09.460 stand there and watch them sell it to customers 00:03:09.460 --> 00:03:12.219 without giving you a single dime. What's fascinating 00:03:12.219 --> 00:03:15.659 here is just the severe imbalance of power between 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:18.060 independent artists and record labels in the 00:03:18.060 --> 00:03:20.259 1980s. I mean, we really have to put ourselves 00:03:20.259 --> 00:03:22.259 in that era. Because it wasn't like today where 00:03:22.259 --> 00:03:25.539 you just upload an mp3. Exactly. Making a record 00:03:25.539 --> 00:03:28.840 in 1987 required pure dedication. You had to 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.159 buy expensive analog tape. pay for studio time, 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:35.099 hire an engineer, and then pay a manufacturing 00:03:35.099 --> 00:03:37.620 plant to physically press the vinyl. Which is 00:03:37.620 --> 00:03:39.840 a massive financial risk for a working class 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.020 band. A huge risk. And the labels knew that they 00:03:43.020 --> 00:03:45.300 held the keys to the castle. If you didn't have 00:03:45.300 --> 00:03:47.219 a label to physically distribute your record 00:03:47.219 --> 00:03:49.979 to stores, nobody was going to hear it. So the 00:03:49.979 --> 00:03:51.900 labels could afford to be predatory. Which makes 00:03:51.900 --> 00:03:54.419 what happens next make a lot of sense. The story 00:03:54.419 --> 00:03:57.259 organically shifts here, from the band being 00:03:57.259 --> 00:03:59.560 exploited to them just taking control of their 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:01.199 own destiny. Yeah, if you can't trust the suits, 00:04:01.259 --> 00:04:04.000 you become the boss. Exactly. So Mark Noah, the 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:07.120 vocalist, he ends up owning GMM Records. And 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:09.659 GMM didn't just release anti -heroes material, 00:04:09.780 --> 00:04:12.560 they became this massive hub. They really did. 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.259 They released early recordings for the Dropkick 00:04:15.259 --> 00:04:17.720 Murphys, which is a huge deal. Oh yeah, massive 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:20.220 band. And also legendary acts in the scene like 00:04:20.220 --> 00:04:23.879 Iron Cross, Oxymoron, Agnostic Front, the Ducky 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:27.040 Boys, the Templars, and One Way System. So what 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.209 does this all mean? We know Noah got burned by 00:04:30.209 --> 00:04:33.350 Link Records. Is it safe to assume that Sting 00:04:33.350 --> 00:04:36.470 was the exact catalyst for him starting GMM Records, 00:04:36.829 --> 00:04:39.389 ensuring other punk bands had a fair platform? 00:04:39.550 --> 00:04:41.329 I think that's absolutely the case. It's a classic 00:04:41.329 --> 00:04:43.889 pivot. You move from being a victim of a broken 00:04:43.889 --> 00:04:46.029 industry to becoming a facilitator for others. 00:04:46.189 --> 00:04:49.350 He built his own supply chain. Exactly. GMM Records 00:04:49.350 --> 00:04:52.029 became a crucial incubator for the street punk 00:04:52.029 --> 00:04:54.709 and noise scene. Noah gave these bands a way 00:04:54.709 --> 00:04:57.389 to distribute their music without having to navigate 00:04:57.389 --> 00:04:59.750 these sketchy, exploitative middlemen. That is 00:04:59.750 --> 00:05:02.329 so smart. But, you know, taking control of your 00:05:02.329 --> 00:05:04.310 business is one thing, controlling your physical 00:05:04.310 --> 00:05:07.310 distribution. But how do you control your image 00:05:07.310 --> 00:05:09.709 when Hollywood steps in and misrepresents you 00:05:09.709 --> 00:05:12.269 to millions of people? Ah, yeah. This is where 00:05:12.269 --> 00:05:14.230 the story takes a really dramatic turn. Here's 00:05:14.230 --> 00:05:16.050 where it gets really interesting, because in 00:05:16.050 --> 00:05:19.569 1998 New Line Cinema releases the film American 00:05:19.569 --> 00:05:23.589 History X. A huge, very intense movie. Very intense. 00:05:23.810 --> 00:05:26.269 And without the band's permission, their logo 00:05:26.269 --> 00:05:28.730 was used in the film. And we need to be very 00:05:28.730 --> 00:05:30.910 clear about the context here. based strictly 00:05:30.910 --> 00:05:33.550 on what the sources tell us. Right. So the film 00:05:33.550 --> 00:05:36.410 deals heavily with neo -Nazi and white supremacist 00:05:36.410 --> 00:05:40.310 characters. And the studio used the anti -heroes 00:05:40.310 --> 00:05:42.889 logo on one of those characters. Which was a 00:05:42.889 --> 00:05:45.350 massive issue. Yeah. Because the band had a very 00:05:45.350 --> 00:05:47.910 vocal admonishment of racism. Right. They were 00:05:47.910 --> 00:05:51.019 strictly against it. Completely. But the issue 00:05:51.019 --> 00:05:53.879 was that some fans and some outside observers 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:57.680 associated oy music with white supremacist ideals. 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:01.500 The scene had a history of these groups trying 00:06:01.500 --> 00:06:03.759 to infiltrate and co -opt the music. But the 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:06.060 band strictly did not want to be associated with 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:08.959 that. Exactly. They hated it. So to have a major 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:12.399 Hollywood studio broadcast, that false association 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:14.600 to the entire world was a worst case scenario. 00:06:14.819 --> 00:06:17.420 Imagine you design a logo for your local neighborhood 00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:19.319 watch, right? You're trying to protect your community. 00:06:19.529 --> 00:06:22.529 and suddenly a massive movie studio uses that 00:06:22.529 --> 00:06:26.009 exact logo on the villain's uniform in a blockbuster 00:06:26.009 --> 00:06:28.689 film. It completely perverts your original intent. 00:06:28.889 --> 00:06:30.990 Exactly. So what do they do? Most people would 00:06:30.990 --> 00:06:33.029 just write an angry zine article or complain 00:06:33.029 --> 00:06:37.269 at a show. But the anti -heroes sued New Line 00:06:37.269 --> 00:06:39.629 Cinema. Which is just incredible. This raises 00:06:39.629 --> 00:06:42.449 an important question about the tension between 00:06:42.449 --> 00:06:45.689 an artist's true intent and how their art is 00:06:45.689 --> 00:06:48.069 co -opted. Yeah, whether by a toxic fan base 00:06:48.069 --> 00:06:51.350 or a massive media entity. Right. And you really 00:06:51.350 --> 00:06:53.769 have to highlight the incredible bravery here. 00:06:54.149 --> 00:06:57.170 This is a small punk band from Georgia. taking 00:06:57.170 --> 00:07:00.230 on a giant studio like New Line Cinema in federal 00:07:00.230 --> 00:07:02.290 court. And they actually won. That's the best 00:07:02.290 --> 00:07:04.889 part. They won. The lawsuit resulted in their 00:07:04.889 --> 00:07:07.350 logo being removed from all subsequent releases 00:07:07.350 --> 00:07:09.670 of the film. Which means New Line had to physically 00:07:09.670 --> 00:07:12.629 go back and alter the movie for future VHS and 00:07:12.629 --> 00:07:15.629 DVD releases. It's a huge victory for independent 00:07:15.629 --> 00:07:18.110 artists everywhere. It really is. But I mean, 00:07:18.310 --> 00:07:20.810 fighting industry exploitation in the 80s, running 00:07:20.810 --> 00:07:23.149 a label and then battling Hollywood in the 90s, 00:07:23.170 --> 00:07:25.329 that is a grueling trajectory. Oh, the burnout 00:07:25.329 --> 00:07:27.209 must have been intense. Yeah, and it makes sense 00:07:27.209 --> 00:07:29.310 that the band's timeline gets a bit fragmented. 00:07:29.490 --> 00:07:31.649 Like, the sources show they took an early hiatus 00:07:31.649 --> 00:07:34.930 from 1989 to 1993. Right, they needed a break 00:07:34.930 --> 00:07:37.410 pretty early on. And then there are lineup changes. 00:07:37.509 --> 00:07:39.810 We mentioned Phil Solomon joined on drums in 00:07:39.810 --> 00:07:42.509 88. Well, in 1997, he actually left the band. 00:07:42.589 --> 00:07:44.110 And he was replaced by Mark McCloskey, right? 00:07:44.230 --> 00:07:46.430 Yep. Mark McCloskey took over. And then later 00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:49.149 on, Don Schumet took over percussion. So there's 00:07:49.149 --> 00:07:51.449 this constant shuffling, which is pretty normal 00:07:51.449 --> 00:07:53.550 for underground bands. Absolutely. Touring in 00:07:53.550 --> 00:07:55.680 a van takes a toll. But the biggest... This gap 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.759 in their history is staggering. They took a massive 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:02.680 21 -year hiatus from live performances. Two decades 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:05.620 away from the stage. Yeah. Which finally ended 00:08:05.620 --> 00:08:10.220 with a comeback show on May 27, 2023. And not 00:08:10.220 --> 00:08:12.779 just a show, they released a new album, Devil 00:08:12.779 --> 00:08:15.899 at My Heels, in 2024. That is true longevity. 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.699 But I have to push back a little here. Stepping 00:08:18.699 --> 00:08:21.360 onto a stage to play aggressive street punk after 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:24.439 21 years away isn't exactly like riding a bicycle. 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:26.660 No, definitely not. It's incredibly physical 00:08:26.660 --> 00:08:29.519 music. Right. So what keeps a band's fire burning 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:31.860 for two decades off the stage? If we connect 00:08:31.860 --> 00:08:34.080 this to the bigger picture, it really speaks 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:37.580 to the enduring nature of punk rock. For these 00:08:37.580 --> 00:08:40.100 guys, it wasn't just a youthful phase or a fashion 00:08:40.100 --> 00:08:43.110 statement. It's an identity. Exactly. It's a 00:08:43.110 --> 00:08:45.789 lifelong commitment to those ideals. The fact 00:08:45.789 --> 00:08:49.370 that they dropped devil at my heels in 2024 proves 00:08:49.370 --> 00:08:52.110 their creative engine never fully shut down. 00:08:52.549 --> 00:08:55.340 The world might have changed. But their perspective 00:08:55.340 --> 00:08:57.639 and their drive didn't. That is so well said. 00:08:57.779 --> 00:08:59.720 It really brings the whole journey into focus. 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:01.600 Because if we recap what we've covered today, 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:04.580 the anti -hero story is just unbelievable. It 00:09:04.580 --> 00:09:06.879 covers so much ground. They go from paying to 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:08.980 produce their own music and getting stiffed in 00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:11.340 1987 to saying, you know what, we'll just build 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:13.980 our own label. Right. Starting GMM records and 00:09:13.980 --> 00:09:16.519 lifting up other bands. Exactly. And then they 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:19.480 sue a Hollywood juggernaut over their anti -racist 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:22.220 convictions and force them to edit a blockbuster 00:09:22.220 --> 00:09:24.830 movie? And then, after all that, they return 00:09:24.830 --> 00:09:27.490 to the stage after a 21 -year absence to drop 00:09:27.490 --> 00:09:30.590 new music. For you listening, this story is a 00:09:30.590 --> 00:09:33.509 literal masterclass in resilience. Whether you're 00:09:33.509 --> 00:09:36.350 in business, making art, or just navigating your 00:09:36.350 --> 00:09:38.610 personal life, protecting your brand and standing 00:09:38.610 --> 00:09:40.929 by your principles is always worth the fight. 00:09:41.370 --> 00:09:43.110 Nobody is going to protect your work for you. 00:09:43.309 --> 00:09:45.470 You have to be willing to throw the punches yourself. 00:09:45.830 --> 00:09:47.830 And before we wrap up this deep dive, I want 00:09:47.830 --> 00:09:49.610 to leave you with a final thought to ponder. 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:53.100 We talked a lot about that 1999 lawsuit against 00:09:53.100 --> 00:09:55.779 New Line Cinema. Right, the logo removal. Yeah. 00:09:56.220 --> 00:09:59.179 In 1999, you could sue a studio to edit a logo 00:09:59.179 --> 00:10:02.399 out of future VHS and DVD releases because media 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:05.840 was physical. But think about today's era of 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.120 instant streaming, viral screenshots, and permanent 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.440 Internet archives. Oh, that's a wild thought. 00:10:11.580 --> 00:10:14.360 Right. If a movie wrongly used an independent 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:17.399 artist's logo today, would a lawsuit ever truly 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:19.840 be able to erase that association from the public 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:22.240 consciousness? Even if you win in court, can 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:24.139 you ever really scrub something from the internet 00:10:24.139 --> 00:10:26.720 once it goes viral? That is a terrifying question 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:29.059 for any creator today. Something for you to mull 00:10:29.059 --> 00:10:30.919 over. Thank you all for joining us on this deep 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:31.100 dive.