WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.740 Imagine standing on a stage, right? You open 00:00:02.740 --> 00:00:04.780 your mouth and you are singing a hit song that 00:00:04.780 --> 00:00:07.179 you literally wrote 30 years ago. Yeah, a song 00:00:07.179 --> 00:00:10.060 that defined your entire career. Exactly. You 00:00:10.060 --> 00:00:11.900 were using the exact same vocal chords. You're 00:00:11.900 --> 00:00:13.900 hitting the exact same harmonies that made that 00:00:13.900 --> 00:00:16.399 song famous around the entire world. Right. But 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:18.899 then you step off the stage and you are handed 00:00:18.899 --> 00:00:22.320 a court order. A piece of paper telling you that, 00:00:22.420 --> 00:00:25.199 legally speaking, your voice and your history 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:27.859 belong to someone else. It's wild. Someone who 00:00:27.859 --> 00:00:29.600 wasn't even in the room when you wrote the song. 00:00:30.199 --> 00:00:34.079 Right. Welcome to the Deep Dive. Today, we are 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:37.520 taking you on a mission to explore a truly mind 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:41.000 -bending story about rock and roll, human identity, 00:00:41.380 --> 00:00:44.600 and, well, what happens when the legal entity 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:47.939 of a band actually outlives its original creators? 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:50.539 It is the ultimate collision between biological 00:00:50.539 --> 00:00:53.549 reality and corporate law. Because, you know, 00:00:53.869 --> 00:00:55.929 you cannot physically separate a singer from 00:00:55.929 --> 00:00:58.049 their vocal cords. But as we're about to see 00:00:58.049 --> 00:01:01.329 today, on paper, you absolutely can sever an 00:01:01.329 --> 00:01:03.590 artist from their own identity. Yeah, it's pretty 00:01:03.590 --> 00:01:06.469 bleak. So our source today is a Wikipedia article 00:01:06.469 --> 00:01:09.769 detailing a 2002 Federal Court of Australia decision. 00:01:10.129 --> 00:01:14.290 The case is called We Too Peta Ltd v Shore Rock. 00:01:14.810 --> 00:01:17.090 And I know at first glance, that sounds like 00:01:17.090 --> 00:01:19.769 a dispute over, I don't know, commercial office 00:01:19.769 --> 00:01:21.890 furniture or something. It sounds incredible. 00:01:21.769 --> 00:01:24.609 just a boilerplate corporate lawsuit between 00:01:24.609 --> 00:01:27.349 two unrecognizable entities. But it is actually 00:01:27.349 --> 00:01:29.989 a vicious battle for the soul and the very name 00:01:29.989 --> 00:01:32.469 of one of the most successful pop rock groups 00:01:32.469 --> 00:01:35.260 in Australian history. OK, let's untack this. 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:37.659 Let's do it. To understand how a group of original 00:01:37.659 --> 00:01:39.980 founding singers got sued over the use of their 00:01:39.980 --> 00:01:42.219 own name, we have to travel back to Melbourne, 00:01:42.260 --> 00:01:45.060 Australia. Right, back to March of 1975. Exactly. 00:01:45.140 --> 00:01:47.219 This is the birth of the globally successful 00:01:47.219 --> 00:01:49.739 group Little River Band. And that foundational 00:01:49.739 --> 00:01:52.799 moment in 75, it really establishes the core 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:55.579 creative engine of Little River Band, or LRB. 00:01:55.620 --> 00:01:58.299 Right. For our purposes, the key names you need 00:01:58.299 --> 00:02:01.420 to track are B. Birtles, who was actually born 00:02:01.420 --> 00:02:04.319 Gerard Birtlecamp. Graham Goble, and Glenn Shorrock. 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:07.420 The primary vocalists. Exactly. There were a 00:02:07.420 --> 00:02:09.979 few other instrumentalists, like Derek Palichy, 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:12.960 Graham Davidge, and Dave Orams, but Bertels, 00:02:13.539 --> 00:02:17.639 Goble, and Shorrock are the primary vocal and 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:20.460 creative forces driving that early success. They're 00:02:20.460 --> 00:02:23.199 the guys sweating in the studio, writing the 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:25.400 hits, singing the harmonies, doing those grueling 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:28.240 promotional tours, and they bring on a manager 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:30.360 named Glenn Wheatley. Which is pretty standard. 00:02:30.539 --> 00:02:33.439 Right, and as is incredibly common, when a band 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.280 starts making real international money, they 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:38.819 realize they can't just operate out of a shoebox 00:02:38.819 --> 00:02:40.780 under a bed, you know, and they have to form 00:02:40.780 --> 00:02:43.180 a company. Because the music business is, first 00:02:43.180 --> 00:02:45.960 and foremost, a business. When royalties start 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:48.800 pouring in from radio play, record sales, merchandise, 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:51.740 you need a legal bucket to hold and distribute 00:02:51.740 --> 00:02:54.300 that money. And pay the tax man. Exactly. You 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:56.979 also need a shield for personal liability. So 00:02:56.979 --> 00:03:00.599 in 1975, Goble and their manager Wheatley form 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:02.840 a holding company. They call it the Little River 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:05.620 Band Ploedy LTD. And for anyone listening who 00:03:05.620 --> 00:03:07.599 isn't familiar with Australian business terms, 00:03:07.819 --> 00:03:10.740 Ploedy LTD is basically the equivalent of a private 00:03:10.740 --> 00:03:13.379 limited company, or like an LLC in the States. 00:03:13.780 --> 00:03:15.539 Right, it's a standard corporate structure. So 00:03:15.539 --> 00:03:17.639 if you've ever started a small business or an 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:19.960 LLC with friends, you know how this works. In 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:21.699 the beginning, everyone is storing their energy 00:03:21.699 --> 00:03:24.319 in, the paperwork feels like a formality, and 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:25.879 you're just focused on building the product. 00:03:26.090 --> 00:03:29.289 And for a while, their product is flawless. I 00:03:29.289 --> 00:03:31.389 mean, they achieve massive commercial success 00:03:31.389 --> 00:03:34.169 in Australia, and they break huge into the United 00:03:34.169 --> 00:03:37.449 States. But bands are like living organisms. 00:03:37.610 --> 00:03:40.210 They mutate. Oh, constantly. People get exhausted 00:03:40.210 --> 00:03:42.949 from touring, creative differences pop up, and 00:03:42.949 --> 00:03:46.330 members cycle in and out. Fast forward to August 00:03:46.330 --> 00:03:50.330 of 1981, a guitarist named Stephen Hausden joins 00:03:50.330 --> 00:03:52.889 the band. Keep your eye on Stephen Hausden. When 00:03:52.889 --> 00:03:56.020 he joins in 81, he is stepping into a highly 00:03:56.020 --> 00:03:58.900 lucrative, well -oiled machine. Right, the heavy 00:03:58.900 --> 00:04:01.319 lifting has been done. Exactly. He joins a lineup 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:03.819 that still includes founders like Bertels, Goble, 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:06.300 Policci, and Shorrock, plus a couple of newer 00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:09.500 guys. Housden is essentially the new employee. 00:04:09.699 --> 00:04:11.680 But the shifting accelerates pretty quickly after 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:15.680 that. Bertels leaves the band in 1983. the manager, 00:04:15.939 --> 00:04:18.920 Glenn Wheatley, he resigns in 1987. Yeah, big 00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:21.519 changes. And that same year, the Remain members 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:23.759 decide to completely restructure the business 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:26.420 side of things. They establish a brand new holding 00:04:26.420 --> 00:04:29.139 company for the Little River Band, and they call 00:04:29.139 --> 00:04:32.399 it We Too Putty LTD. And the structure of We 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:35.660 Too Putty LTD is crucial to everything that follows. 00:04:35.930 --> 00:04:38.990 How so? Well, the directors of this new company 00:04:38.990 --> 00:04:42.170 are simply the current active band members at 00:04:42.170 --> 00:04:45.910 that exact moment in 1987. So that's Graham Goebel, 00:04:46.269 --> 00:04:49.149 Stephen Hausden, Wayne Nelson, Derek Palicci, 00:04:49.350 --> 00:04:51.990 and Glenn Shorrock. Okay. They are all directors, 00:04:52.009 --> 00:04:54.670 and they all hold equal shares. Which, you know, 00:04:54.750 --> 00:04:57.269 seems perfectly fair on paper. Whoever is currently 00:04:57.269 --> 00:04:59.689 sweating on stage gets an equal slice of the 00:04:59.689 --> 00:05:01.810 corporate pie. It does seem fair. But corporate 00:05:01.810 --> 00:05:04.810 shares are tied to active participation. If you 00:05:04.810 --> 00:05:06.610 quit the band, you don't get to take your slice 00:05:06.610 --> 00:05:08.529 of the pie home and just sit on your couch and 00:05:08.529 --> 00:05:10.930 collect money. You resign your directorship, 00:05:11.290 --> 00:05:13.230 and your shares stay with the active company. 00:05:13.329 --> 00:05:15.810 Right. That is standard corporate operating procedure. 00:05:16.629 --> 00:05:19.329 But the fatal error, the move that seals their 00:05:19.329 --> 00:05:22.180 fate, entirely happens the very next year. In 00:05:22.180 --> 00:05:26.860 1988? Yes. In 1988, founder Graham Goble and 00:05:26.860 --> 00:05:29.680 former manager Glenn Wheatley officially transfer 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.199 the ownership of the band name Little River Band 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:34.660 along with all the associated trademarks and 00:05:34.660 --> 00:05:37.600 logos. Oh no. Yeah. They move all of it from 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:41.220 the original 1975 holding company into this new 00:05:41.220 --> 00:05:44.459 company, We Too Play LTD. They basically took 00:05:44.459 --> 00:05:48.199 the title to the car, so to speak, and signed 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:50.939 it over to the new LLC. That's exactly what they 00:05:50.939 --> 00:05:53.019 did. To put this into perspective for you, it's 00:05:53.019 --> 00:05:54.740 like building a beautiful custom home with your 00:05:54.740 --> 00:05:57.019 best friends. You design the architecture, you 00:05:57.019 --> 00:05:59.120 lay the foundation, you put your blood and sweat 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:02.240 into it. Yep. But over the years, as people slowly 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:04.639 move out to pursue other things or, you know, 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:07.160 start families, the guy who rented the guest 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:09.939 room six years later ends up holding the sole 00:06:09.939 --> 00:06:12.480 deed to the property. That is a perfect analogy, 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:14.879 because that is exactly how the attrition played 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:17.800 out here. It's just wild. After that 1988 transfer, 00:06:18.139 --> 00:06:20.459 the original members slowly bleed out of the 00:06:20.459 --> 00:06:23.959 organization. Graham Webber leaves in 1992. Wayne 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:27.060 Nelson and founder Glenn Shorrock leave in 1996. 00:06:27.660 --> 00:06:30.579 Derek Polici leaves in 1998. And every single 00:06:30.579 --> 00:06:33.000 time one of them walks out the door, they surrender 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:35.879 their active stake in We Too Betty LTD. Leaving 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:37.740 Stephen Hausden sitting alone in the boardroom? 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:41.120 Exactly. By 1998, Stephen Hausden is the sole 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:44.079 remaining director. He becomes the 100 % owner 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:47.040 of We Too Betty LTD. Wow. He is the last man 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:49.759 standing. And because We Too owns the trademarks, 00:06:50.100 --> 00:06:51.980 Hausden essentially is the Little River Band. 00:06:52.250 --> 00:06:55.009 Legally speaking. Legally speaking. Right. Any 00:06:55.009 --> 00:06:57.290 new or returning musicians from that point forward 00:06:57.290 --> 00:06:59.730 are not joining a creative brotherhood. They're 00:06:59.730 --> 00:07:02.430 contracted employees working for Stephen Housden. 00:07:02.910 --> 00:07:05.910 So Housden is sitting on this quiet, massive 00:07:05.910 --> 00:07:08.709 legal goldmine. Yeah. But a trademark is really 00:07:08.709 --> 00:07:10.750 only as good as the threat to its power, right? 00:07:10.829 --> 00:07:13.449 No. And that threat arrived in early 2002 because 00:07:13.449 --> 00:07:15.550 eventually the original voices actually missed 00:07:15.550 --> 00:07:17.509 singing together. They wanted to get back out 00:07:17.509 --> 00:07:20.759 there. Exactly. Bertles, Shorrock, and Goble 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:23.680 reunite. They form a trio. They bring back their 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:26.180 old manager, Glenn Wheatley, and they actually 00:07:26.180 --> 00:07:29.079 revive their original 1975 holding company. They 00:07:29.079 --> 00:07:30.819 want to get back on stage. Right. And they plan 00:07:30.819 --> 00:07:34.180 to perform as Bertles, Shorrock, Goble, and they 00:07:34.180 --> 00:07:37.300 specifically capitalize the L, R, and B in their 00:07:37.300 --> 00:07:39.879 names on the posters. Clever. Yeah, very clever. 00:07:40.420 --> 00:07:42.339 They also want to build themselves using phrases 00:07:42.339 --> 00:07:45.899 like the original Little River Band or the voices 00:07:45.899 --> 00:07:48.720 of Little River Band. Which biologically and 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:50.959 historically is completely accurate. It is a 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:53.300 factual description of who they are. It is. But 00:07:53.300 --> 00:07:55.839 Housden discovers this plan and immediately drops 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:58.319 the hammer. He hits them with a legal injunction 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:00.899 to cease and desist, demanding they stop using 00:08:00.899 --> 00:08:03.779 the name Little River Band in any capacity. Zero 00:08:03.779 --> 00:08:05.740 tolerance. And just like that, they're dragged 00:08:05.740 --> 00:08:08.000 into the Federal Court of Australia. So the written 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.019 submissions began on June 17th, 2002, before 00:08:11.019 --> 00:08:14.879 Justice Raymond Finkelstein. WE2 Plitty LTD, 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:18.220 representing Housden, is the applicant. Shorrock, 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:20.899 Bertels, and Goebel are the respondents. But 00:08:20.899 --> 00:08:23.199 the founders fight back, right? They do. They 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.379 launch a cross -claim. They argue that the trademark 00:08:26.379 --> 00:08:29.199 should be returned to them based on... prior 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:31.680 ownership. Okay. They argue that a trademark's 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:34.740 value comes from the cultural goodwill it generates. 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:37.620 And they were the actual human beings who generated 00:08:37.620 --> 00:08:40.080 that goodwill in the 1970s. Here's where it gets 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:42.000 really interesting because I have to push back 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.500 on the legal reality here. Okay, go for it. As 00:08:44.500 --> 00:08:47.139 someone looking at this from the outside, common 00:08:47.139 --> 00:08:50.370 sense screams that the founders are right. I 00:08:50.370 --> 00:08:53.129 mean, if they are singing the exact songs they 00:08:53.129 --> 00:08:55.850 wrote with the exact voices that made those songs 00:08:55.850 --> 00:08:58.850 famous, how does a piece of administrative paperwork 00:08:58.850 --> 00:09:01.950 defeat the actual physical voices of the people 00:09:01.950 --> 00:09:05.009 who built the legacy? I get it. It is deeply 00:09:05.009 --> 00:09:07.570 counterintuitive to how we view art. We view 00:09:07.570 --> 00:09:09.950 art romantically, right? Of course. But trademark 00:09:09.950 --> 00:09:12.950 law does not care about romance. And it does 00:09:12.950 --> 00:09:15.350 not care about historical authorship. It cares 00:09:15.350 --> 00:09:19.019 about the rules. Exactly. Trademark law is fundamentally 00:09:19.019 --> 00:09:21.940 about consumer protection and identifying the 00:09:21.940 --> 00:09:24.399 commercial origin of a product. The law looks 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:26.799 at the paper trail. And Stephen Housden didn't 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:29.240 just walk into court with a gentleman's agreement. 00:09:29.980 --> 00:09:32.519 He came with international receipts. Right. He 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:35.379 had the official documentation showing the 1988 00:09:35.379 --> 00:09:39.039 assignment of the trademarks to We Too. And crucially, 00:09:39.259 --> 00:09:41.059 he showed that this trademark was officially 00:09:41.059 --> 00:09:43.480 registered with the United States Patent and 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.960 Trademark Office back in 1989. And that international 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.159 registration made it completely bulletproof. 00:09:49.819 --> 00:09:52.000 Now, the founders also tried to argue that we, 00:09:52.139 --> 00:09:53.740 too, should lose the trademark due to a lack 00:09:53.740 --> 00:09:56.600 of use. What does that mean? Well, in trademark 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.340 law, there is a concept of a statutory period, 00:09:59.700 --> 00:10:01.700 meaning if you own a trademark, but you don't 00:10:01.700 --> 00:10:03.639 actively use it in commerce for a set number 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:06.259 of years, it can be considered abandoned. Oh, 00:10:06.259 --> 00:10:09.279 I see. But Housen completely dismantled this 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.620 argument. He provided concrete evidence that 00:10:11.620 --> 00:10:13.919 we, too, have been actively touring and using 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:17.200 the trademark the entire time. But the most devastating 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:20.320 piece of evidence. The part that really highlights 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:22.779 how disconnected the artists had become from 00:10:22.779 --> 00:10:25.139 the business side of things involved the internet. 00:10:25.620 --> 00:10:28.480 Oh, this part is brutal. It really is. Housden 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.000 presented a record showing that in the year 2000, 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:33.700 B. Birtles himself had transferred the ownership 00:10:33.700 --> 00:10:38.620 of the URL littleriverband .com directly to We2PD 00:10:38.620 --> 00:10:41.440 LTD. Just two years before the lawsuit. Yeah. 00:10:41.580 --> 00:10:43.620 From a psychological standpoint, it's just tragic. 00:10:43.940 --> 00:10:46.460 Birtles likely viewed it as simple administrative 00:10:46.460 --> 00:10:49.980 cleanup. He probably thought, well, WE2 handles 00:10:49.980 --> 00:10:52.320 the band's current logistics, so they should 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:54.860 manage the website registry. Makes total sense. 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:57.120 He had no idea he was handing housing the final 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.159 piece of ammunition for an upcoming trademark 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:01.460 war. So the founders are sitting in a federal 00:11:01.460 --> 00:11:03.899 courtroom staring at this mountain of paperwork 00:11:03.899 --> 00:11:06.320 that they themselves had signed over the decades. 00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:09.259 Paperwork explicitly stating they do not own 00:11:09.259 --> 00:11:11.799 the very thing they created. Yeah, and on the 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:14.659 second day of the trial, the reality finally 00:11:14.659 --> 00:11:17.090 sets in. They see the writing on the wall. They 00:11:17.090 --> 00:11:19.830 do. The original company withdraws their counterclaim, 00:11:20.029 --> 00:11:22.289 but they surrender, essentially, and seek a settlement 00:11:22.289 --> 00:11:25.470 with We Too PDLTD. And the immediate fallout 00:11:25.470 --> 00:11:29.009 in court is harsh. Justice Finkelstein accepts 00:11:29.009 --> 00:11:31.730 the settlement, but he has to rule on the financial 00:11:31.730 --> 00:11:34.470 fallout. He orders the founders to pay half of 00:11:34.470 --> 00:11:37.669 We Too's taxed costs. And for anyone unfamiliar 00:11:37.669 --> 00:11:41.070 with Australian legal jargon. taxed costs doesn't 00:11:41.070 --> 00:11:43.190 mean government taxes. Right. It means the court 00:11:43.190 --> 00:11:46.850 officially calculates and itemizes the reasonable 00:11:46.850 --> 00:11:49.409 legal fees incurred during the dispute. So the 00:11:49.409 --> 00:11:52.269 founders had to foot half of Housden's legal 00:11:52.269 --> 00:11:54.450 bill just for taking them to court. Exactly. 00:11:55.049 --> 00:11:57.470 And adding insult to injury, Justice Ficklesand 00:11:57.470 --> 00:11:59.490 makes a point to express his deep disappointment 00:11:59.490 --> 00:12:01.940 on the record. He says it's regrettable that 00:12:01.940 --> 00:12:03.480 the parties couldn't resolve this privately. 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:06.019 But the financial penalty pales in comparison 00:12:06.019 --> 00:12:08.419 to the actual terms of the settlement outlined 00:12:08.419 --> 00:12:11.539 on July 12, 2002. Yeah, the terms are absolutely 00:12:11.539 --> 00:12:14.899 crushing. Bertels, Goebel, and Shorrock are strictly 00:12:14.899 --> 00:12:17.720 banned from using the band name, the trademarks, 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:20.179 or the logos as their name, or even as part of 00:12:20.179 --> 00:12:22.379 their name. They cannot call themselves Little 00:12:22.379 --> 00:12:24.659 River Band. They cannot call themselves the original 00:12:24.659 --> 00:12:26.820 Little River Band. The only concession granted 00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:29.279 to them is descriptive use. Which means what, 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:31.620 exactly? In promotional and advertising material, 00:12:32.200 --> 00:12:34.620 they are allowed to describe themselves factually. 00:12:35.179 --> 00:12:37.639 They can say, we are the original members of 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:41.179 Little River Band, but they cannot bill their 00:12:41.179 --> 00:12:43.779 actual performing act under that name. What's 00:12:43.779 --> 00:12:46.080 fascinating to me is how aggressively this settlement 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:48.659 is enforced in the years that follow. It wasn't 00:12:48.659 --> 00:12:50.840 just about the name on a concert marquee. No, 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:53.840 it went much further. In 2004, the founders try 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:56.980 to release a retrospective DVD titled Little 00:12:56.980 --> 00:12:59.600 River Band. It's a long way there. It features 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:01.840 historical concert footage from their prime in 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:06.019 the 1970s and it gets blocked. Housden challenges 00:13:06.019 --> 00:13:07.759 the manner in which they describe their link 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.259 to the band in the promotional materials. He 00:13:10.259 --> 00:13:12.539 was rigorously protecting the corporate asset, 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.600 ensuring no consumer confusion. What's fascinating 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:18.340 here is the psychological toll. You have the 00:13:18.340 --> 00:13:20.940 creators of this massively successful cultural 00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:25.340 export legally forced to operate as former members 00:13:25.340 --> 00:13:28.259 of their own life's work. They are treated like 00:13:28.259 --> 00:13:31.179 alumni of a university they built, rather than 00:13:31.179 --> 00:13:34.100 the ongoing soul of the music. And the absurdity 00:13:34.100 --> 00:13:36.879 of this legal gag order reaches its absolute 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:40.669 peak in October 2004. the Australian Recording 00:13:40.669 --> 00:13:43.730 Industry Association, A -R -I -A, which is basically 00:13:43.730 --> 00:13:46.210 the Australian equivalent of the Grammy board 00:13:46.210 --> 00:13:48.470 or the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Right. They 00:13:48.470 --> 00:13:51.389 decide to induct the classic lineup of Little 00:13:51.389 --> 00:13:54.029 River Band into their Hall of Fame. Which is 00:13:54.029 --> 00:13:57.210 a massive lifetime achievement honor. the kind 00:13:57.210 --> 00:13:59.690 of moment that validates an entire career. But 00:13:59.690 --> 00:14:02.309 because of the 2002 settlement, when Bertels, 00:14:02.529 --> 00:14:04.970 Goble, and Shore Rock get together to perform 00:14:04.970 --> 00:14:08.070 their early hit, Help Is On Its Way, at the broadcast 00:14:08.070 --> 00:14:10.470 ceremony, they can't just be introduced to the 00:14:10.470 --> 00:14:12.730 crowd as the Little River Band. Right, they legally 00:14:12.730 --> 00:14:15.470 can't. The national TV broadcast literally has 00:14:15.470 --> 00:14:18.429 to bill them specifically as the classic lineup 00:14:18.429 --> 00:14:20.450 of the Little River Band. It's unbelievable. 00:14:20.549 --> 00:14:24.190 It is a bizarre, carefully negotiated legal loophole 00:14:24.190 --> 00:14:26.139 just so they can stand on stage and play play 00:14:26.139 --> 00:14:28.399 their own song at their own lifetime achievement 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:30.720 award. And the friction continued to simmer, 00:14:30.980 --> 00:14:34.220 leading to another round in court in 2005. This 00:14:34.220 --> 00:14:37.980 one was known as We Too PDLTDV Shore Rocks No. 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:40.620 2. Back to court. Back to court. Once again, 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:43.639 just as Finkelstein presided, both sides threw 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:45.460 claims and counterclaims at each other regarding 00:14:45.460 --> 00:14:48.120 trademark infringement and misleading conduct. 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.259 But they were eventually dismissed. OK. They 00:14:52.259 --> 00:14:54.240 reached the final comprehensive settlement in 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.539 July 2005 that essentially reaffirmed the status 00:14:57.539 --> 00:15:00.759 quo. The founders could explicitly refer to their 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:03.100 heritage as the singers, songwriters and former 00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:05.879 members of LRB, but Housen retained the absolute 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:08.379 right to the name. So the legal battles finally 00:15:08.379 --> 00:15:10.639 stopped, but the emotional damage was permanent. 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.080 And the founders channeled their frustration 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:14.980 the only way musicians know how, right? They 00:15:14.980 --> 00:15:16.659 went into the studio. They went into the studio 00:15:16.659 --> 00:15:18.700 and wrote music about it. But we aren't talking 00:15:18.700 --> 00:15:22.299 about protest songs tackling war or poverty or, 00:15:22.299 --> 00:15:24.659 you know, political corruption. We are talking 00:15:24.659 --> 00:15:28.200 about literal protest songs railing against contract 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:30.720 law and corporate shell games. Which has to be 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:33.120 one of the rarest subgenres in all of music history. 00:15:33.700 --> 00:15:36.860 passionate, emotionally raw rock anthems about 00:15:36.860 --> 00:15:39.860 intellectual property assignments. It is a hilarious 00:15:39.860 --> 00:15:44.019 and sad contrast. In 2006, Graham Goble releases 00:15:44.019 --> 00:15:46.460 a track called Someone's Taken Our History, which 00:15:46.460 --> 00:15:49.039 is as literal a title as you can get. Very literal. 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:52.919 In 2012, B. Birtles releases a song called Revolving 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:55.840 Door using the corporate turnstile of band members 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.860 as a metaphor for their loss. And then in 2016, 00:15:59.059 --> 00:16:01.669 Glenn Shorrock puts out a song titled perfectly 00:16:01.669 --> 00:16:05.149 hear my voice. They are using classic rock instrumentation 00:16:05.149 --> 00:16:08.809 to scream into the void about the cold, emotionless 00:16:08.809 --> 00:16:11.269 machinery of the legal system. Yeah. But meanwhile, 00:16:11.450 --> 00:16:13.500 the machinery kept right on humming. It sure 00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:16.179 did. Because according to our sources, as of 00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:19.220 October 2020, Stephen Houston's Little River 00:16:19.220 --> 00:16:22.200 Band continues to tour. Wow. They play largely 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.600 in the United States, performing the massive 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.879 hits that were written, composed and made famous 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:28.899 by the very men who were legally banned from 00:16:28.899 --> 00:16:31.980 using the name. Houston hires contracted musicians 00:16:31.980 --> 00:16:34.600 to play the parts and the corporate entity continues 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:37.460 to generate revenue from its assets. It perfectly 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:40.620 distills the strange duality of art and commerce. 00:16:40.889 --> 00:16:43.750 The legal entity of the Little River Band is 00:16:43.750 --> 00:16:46.370 alive and well. Functioning exactly as a holding 00:16:46.370 --> 00:16:49.309 company is designed to function. So what does 00:16:49.309 --> 00:16:52.590 this all mean? Why should you, listening to this, 00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:56.529 care about an obscure 2002 Australian court case? 00:16:56.590 --> 00:17:00.049 Good question. It matters because it is a glaring 00:17:00.049 --> 00:17:02.909 warning beacon for anyone who creates anything. 00:17:03.210 --> 00:17:06.150 Whether you are starting an LLC, coding an app 00:17:06.150 --> 00:17:08.849 with your college roommate, launching a podcast, 00:17:09.049 --> 00:17:12.309 or forming an indie band in your garage, you 00:17:12.309 --> 00:17:14.750 have to care about the boring administrative 00:17:14.750 --> 00:17:17.369 holding company paperwork. Because when the creative 00:17:17.369 --> 00:17:19.569 honeymoon ends and push comes to shove, the law 00:17:19.569 --> 00:17:21.829 doesn't care about nostalgia. It really doesn't. 00:17:21.950 --> 00:17:23.809 The law doesn't care who wrote the lyrics, who 00:17:23.809 --> 00:17:25.890 sang the high harmony, or who had the original 00:17:25.890 --> 00:17:28.829 dream. The law only cares about who signed the 00:17:28.829 --> 00:17:30.789 trademark assignment and who holds the shares. 00:17:31.049 --> 00:17:33.890 It's a harsh truth. A legendary group of artists 00:17:33.890 --> 00:17:36.650 accidentally signed away their identity in 1988 00:17:36.650 --> 00:17:38.970 because they just didn't understand the mechanics 00:17:38.970 --> 00:17:41.309 of corporate attrition. And that led to a bizarre 00:17:41.309 --> 00:17:44.869 reality in 2002 where the legal owner of the 00:17:44.869 --> 00:17:47.410 band isn't an original member and the original 00:17:47.410 --> 00:17:49.920 members aren't legally the band. It truly is 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:52.359 one of the strangest corporate shell games in 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:55.359 music history, a paper trail that managed to 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:57.839 completely overpower the human voice. And this 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.279 raises an important question, one that goes far 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:03.140 beyond just trademark law and actually gets into 00:18:03.140 --> 00:18:05.720 ancient philosophy. Oh, here we go. It's essentially 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:08.279 the musical version of the ship of Theseus. The 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:10.599 old thought experiment, like if you have a famous 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:13.289 wooden ship. And over the years, you replace 00:18:13.289 --> 00:18:15.769 every single rotting wooden plank with a new 00:18:15.769 --> 00:18:18.230 one. Until absolutely none of the original wood 00:18:18.230 --> 00:18:20.670 remains, is it still the same ship? Exactly. 00:18:20.829 --> 00:18:23.509 Apply that to this deep dive. If a legal holding 00:18:23.509 --> 00:18:26.009 company slowly replaces every single original 00:18:26.009 --> 00:18:28.569 human member of a creative group with contracted 00:18:28.569 --> 00:18:31.349 employees, but that entity legally retains the 00:18:31.349 --> 00:18:34.210 trademark and the logo, is it still the same 00:18:34.210 --> 00:18:36.490 band? That is the question. When you buy a ticket 00:18:36.490 --> 00:18:39.569 to go see a legacy act play at a theater, what 00:18:39.569 --> 00:18:42.059 are you actually paying for? Are you paying to 00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:45.579 stand in the presence of a legally trademarked 00:18:45.579 --> 00:18:48.240 corporate asset, or are you paying to connect 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.740 with the soul of the original creators? It makes 00:18:50.740 --> 00:18:53.559 you wonder. If you can legally sever a singer's 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:55.740 voice from their public identity, and you hand 00:18:55.740 --> 00:18:57.880 that identity over to a corporate filing whose 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:00.059 fingerprint is really on the music you're listening 00:19:00.059 --> 00:19:02.940 to, something to mull over the next time you 00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:06.039 hear a classic hit on the radio, or the next 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:07.920 time someone asks you to sign a partnership agreement. 00:19:08.780 --> 00:19:10.839 Thanks for joining us on this deep dive. We'll 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:11.460 catch you next time.