WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.660 Imagine you're an FBI agent. OK, I'm picturing 00:00:02.660 --> 00:00:05.160 it. You're stationed at the Guantanamo Bay Detainment 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:10.509 Camps. down in Cuba, and it's 2004. Right. So 00:00:10.509 --> 00:00:12.789 right in the thick of it. Exactly. And you're 00:00:12.789 --> 00:00:15.650 sitting in this sterile designated observation 00:00:15.650 --> 00:00:18.609 room, looking through a viewing window at an 00:00:18.609 --> 00:00:20.629 interrogation that's currently underway. Just 00:00:20.629 --> 00:00:22.449 doing your job, observing. It's doing your job. 00:00:22.710 --> 00:00:25.550 But suddenly, the door to that interrogation 00:00:25.550 --> 00:00:29.070 room opens up. An American military interrogator 00:00:29.070 --> 00:00:31.530 walks in. OK. And the very first thing she does 00:00:31.530 --> 00:00:34.990 is order a Marine in the room to take a heavy 00:00:34.990 --> 00:00:38.469 curtain and literally duct tape it entirely over 00:00:38.469 --> 00:00:41.270 your observation window. Wow. So just completely 00:00:41.270 --> 00:00:43.469 blocking you out. Effectively blinding you, yeah. 00:00:44.170 --> 00:00:46.350 So what do you do? Welcome to the Deep Dive. 00:00:46.729 --> 00:00:49.649 Today we're unpacking a really specific, brief, 00:00:49.950 --> 00:00:52.270 but honestly incredibly heavy piece of history 00:00:52.270 --> 00:00:54.429 centered around that exact moment. And centered 00:00:54.429 --> 00:00:57.009 around a figure known to the public only by her 00:00:57.009 --> 00:00:59.670 rank and her last name, which is Sergeant Lacey. 00:01:00.049 --> 00:01:02.700 Right. But before we get into the leads of how 00:01:02.700 --> 00:01:05.640 that single piece of duct tape sparked this massive 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:08.719 interagency conflict, we really need to set some 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:11.079 parameters for this deep dive. Yeah, that is 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:13.659 crucial here. We are essentially looking at the 00:01:13.659 --> 00:01:16.780 mechanics of what was recorded. This deep dive 00:01:16.780 --> 00:01:19.439 isn't just about what allegedly happened in one 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:21.980 specific interrogation room. No, not at all. 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:25.200 It's really about the intersection of observation, 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.599 documentation, and the whole bureaucratic aftermath 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:31.439 of alleged abuse. Exactly. It's about how institutions 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:33.780 talk to each other or, you know, fail to talk 00:01:33.780 --> 00:01:35.980 to each other when things get dark. Right, and 00:01:35.980 --> 00:01:38.379 just a quick disclaimer to be crystal clear with 00:01:38.379 --> 00:01:40.819 you, the listener, right out of the gate. The 00:01:40.819 --> 00:01:43.340 sources we are working from today contain highly 00:01:43.340 --> 00:01:45.959 politically charged content. regarding military 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:48.799 interrogation. We're looking at declassified 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:51.959 FBI reports reporting from CNN, the Boston Globe, 00:01:52.459 --> 00:01:55.359 the Sydney Morning Herald, and an excerpt from 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:58.180 author Joseph Margulies. And we should stress, 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:01.670 we are not here to endorse any viewpoints. Absolutely 00:02:01.670 --> 00:02:04.390 not. We are not taking any political sides and 00:02:04.390 --> 00:02:06.989 we're not here to pass judgment. Our sole mission 00:02:06.989 --> 00:02:10.569 today is to impartially report and explore the 00:02:10.569 --> 00:02:13.669 contents, the allegations, and those bureaucratic 00:02:13.669 --> 00:02:16.750 memos precisely as they're documented in this 00:02:16.750 --> 00:02:19.400 provided source material. Just stick into the 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:22.280 record. Exactly. Okay, let's unpack this. We 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:25.520 have this core mystery that kicks off a huge 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:28.300 paper trail between the FBI and the Department 00:02:28.300 --> 00:02:30.360 of Defense. Right, back to the observation room. 00:02:30.500 --> 00:02:32.699 Yeah, you have the FBI agent sitting there, the 00:02:32.699 --> 00:02:35.639 window is taped up. To me, I mean this immediately 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.539 feels like a scene straight out of an espionage 00:02:38.539 --> 00:02:41.270 thriller. Oh, totally. Like a heist a movie right 00:02:41.270 --> 00:02:43.590 the operative sneaks in they cut the wire to 00:02:43.590 --> 00:02:45.509 the main camera feed so they can operate in the 00:02:45.509 --> 00:02:47.909 dark But this is the crazy part. They completely 00:02:47.909 --> 00:02:50.710 forget. There's a secondary monitor still broadcasting 00:02:50.710 --> 00:02:53.650 It's huge oversight because the FBI agent sitting 00:02:53.650 --> 00:02:56.030 behind this taped -up window simply looks over 00:02:56.030 --> 00:02:59.110 at a monitor showing the view From a closed -circuit 00:02:59.110 --> 00:03:02.110 surveillance camera inside that exact same room. 00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:04.590 They blocked the glass but forgot the camera 00:03:04.590 --> 00:03:06.810 Yeah, but wait, I have to ask if the camera feed 00:03:06.810 --> 00:03:09.129 is active. What is she actually doing in this? 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.199 that she didn't want the FBI to see through the 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:13.800 glass. Well, that's the thing. Yeah. I mean, 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:16.840 why go through the very deliberate, aggressive 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:19.819 act of concealment with the duct tape, but seemingly 00:03:19.819 --> 00:03:22.800 ignore the overhead camera monitor? It really 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:27.460 speaks to the chaotic, hyper -pressurized environment 00:03:27.460 --> 00:03:30.139 of these facilities at the time. It's a classic 00:03:30.139 --> 00:03:32.419 case of tunnel vision. Tunnel vision, okay. Okay, 00:03:32.419 --> 00:03:35.759 how so? Well, when personnel are hyper -focused 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:38.810 on the physical space of the room... you know, 00:03:39.110 --> 00:03:40.729 controlling the detainee, blocking the window, 00:03:40.949 --> 00:03:42.569 managing the immediate people in there. They 00:03:42.569 --> 00:03:45.110 can just become completely blind to the systemic 00:03:45.110 --> 00:03:47.909 surveillance overhead. Oh, so they manage the 00:03:47.909 --> 00:03:50.530 immediate physical threat to their secrecy. Right, 00:03:50.530 --> 00:03:52.629 but they completely forget the digital one. And 00:03:52.629 --> 00:03:55.449 what's fascinating here is the juxtaposition 00:03:55.449 --> 00:03:58.310 of actions seen on that monitor. What it actually 00:03:58.310 --> 00:04:00.930 revealed to the FBI agent is a study in profound 00:04:00.930 --> 00:04:03.509 psychological manipulation. Walk us through the 00:04:03.509 --> 00:04:05.770 actual mechanics of what the agent is watching 00:04:05.770 --> 00:04:08.180 on that closed -circuit screen. According to 00:04:08.180 --> 00:04:11.280 the CNN report that details the FBI memo, the 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:14.080 agent watched Sergeant Lacey leaning in, apparently 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:16.339 whispering directly into the detainee's ear. 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:19.300 Okay. And at the exact same time, she was caressing 00:04:19.300 --> 00:04:21.860 his arms and applying lotion to them. Which, 00:04:21.939 --> 00:04:24.579 I mean, if you strip away the context of Guantanamo 00:04:24.579 --> 00:04:27.360 Bay, sounds almost clinical. Or even soothing. 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:29.800 On the surface, yeah, absolutely. But the FBI 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:32.500 agent's report notes a really stark juxtaposition. 00:04:33.290 --> 00:04:35.350 Simultaneously, as she's applying this lotion 00:04:35.350 --> 00:04:38.449 and making intimate physical contact, the detainee 00:04:38.449 --> 00:04:41.370 appeared to be grimacing in pain. Wait, grimacing? 00:04:42.209 --> 00:04:45.160 From lotion? Well... On more than one occasion, 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:47.240 the report explicitly notes that it was clear 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:50.000 her hands making contact were the direct cause 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.800 of physical distress. Wow. So she is simultaneously 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:54.939 soothing the skin and inflicting acute pain. 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:58.000 Exactly. I really want to dig into why an interrogator 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.560 would use that specific combination because it's 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:02.879 not just blunt force, you know. It feels like 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:05.540 a highly calculated tactic designed to completely 00:05:05.540 --> 00:05:08.399 disorient the subject. It is precisely that. 00:05:08.670 --> 00:05:12.149 When the brain receives signals of care and severe 00:05:12.149 --> 00:05:15.910 pain at the same time, it fails to form a predictable 00:05:15.910 --> 00:05:17.870 pattern of threat. Because it doesn't know how 00:05:17.870 --> 00:05:21.569 to react. Right. The human mind is essentially 00:05:21.569 --> 00:05:24.089 a prediction engine. It wants to know where the 00:05:24.089 --> 00:05:26.449 next threat is coming from so it can build defenses. 00:05:26.550 --> 00:05:29.610 Makes sense. But when you provide two completely 00:05:29.610 --> 00:05:33.069 conflicting inputs, soothing lotion and physical 00:05:33.069 --> 00:05:36.689 pain, that predictive engine just breaks down. 00:05:36.689 --> 00:05:39.310 It overloads. It completely strips the detainee 00:05:39.310 --> 00:05:41.689 of their psychological defenses because they 00:05:41.689 --> 00:05:44.529 literally cannot anticipate the next move. This 00:05:44.529 --> 00:05:47.009 kind of cognitive overload accelerates a mental 00:05:47.009 --> 00:05:49.730 breakdown much faster and much more thoroughly 00:05:49.730 --> 00:05:53.370 than just blunt physical force alone. It's sensory 00:05:53.370 --> 00:05:56.310 disorientation weaponized. Exactly. But the camera 00:05:56.310 --> 00:05:58.930 only captures the visual of this disorientation, 00:05:59.029 --> 00:06:01.149 right? I mean, closed -circuit feeds like this 00:06:01.149 --> 00:06:03.689 usually don't have audio, or the audio is totally 00:06:03.689 --> 00:06:05.810 muffled. Right, the FBI agent could only see 00:06:05.810 --> 00:06:08.430 the visuals. So it's what happens after the interrogation 00:06:08.430 --> 00:06:10.709 session ends that takes this from a disturbing 00:06:10.709 --> 00:06:13.529 psychological observation into a formal allegation 00:06:13.529 --> 00:06:16.209 of physical assault. Because the FBI agent didn't 00:06:16.209 --> 00:06:19.370 just passively write down what they saw on the 00:06:19.370 --> 00:06:21.829 screen and file it away. No, they actually investigate 00:06:21.829 --> 00:06:24.350 the blind spot. Because a good investigator knows 00:06:24.350 --> 00:06:26.149 that what people do when they think they aren't 00:06:26.149 --> 00:06:28.529 being watched is usually the most important part 00:06:28.529 --> 00:06:31.649 of the story. Right. So the agent actually tracked 00:06:31.649 --> 00:06:35.129 down the Marine who had been inside the room. 00:06:35.250 --> 00:06:38.750 Wait, the exact same Marine who was ordered to 00:06:38.750 --> 00:06:41.129 duct tape the curtain in the first place? The 00:06:41.129 --> 00:06:44.529 very same one. Wow. Okay, so the agent directly 00:06:44.529 --> 00:06:47.209 asks him what happened during the time the view 00:06:47.209 --> 00:06:49.550 through the glass was blocked. Which transitions 00:06:49.550 --> 00:06:52.089 our source material from visual surveillance 00:06:52.089 --> 00:06:54.800 to verbal testimony. And the Marine's answer 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:57.199 is what truly escalates the severity of these 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.879 reports, because the Marine claimed that behind 00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:02.779 that curtain, out of clear view, Sergeant Lacy 00:07:02.779 --> 00:07:06.139 grabbed the detainee's thumbs and bent them backwards. 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:09.000 And that's not all. No. Furthermore, he indicated 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:11.199 that she also grabbed the detainee's genitals. 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:14.040 The implication being that the lotion and the 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.379 whispering seen on the monitor were essentially 00:07:16.379 --> 00:07:19.740 a prelude. or a cover. Right, a cover for acute 00:07:19.740 --> 00:07:22.519 physical assault occurring just out of the camera's 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:25.220 clear line of sight. Or perhaps in the moments 00:07:25.220 --> 00:07:27.500 not fully captured by the frame. Here's where 00:07:27.500 --> 00:07:30.040 it gets really interesting, though. The Marine's 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.620 answer actually flips this whole story on its 00:07:32.620 --> 00:07:35.500 head. How so? Well, he didn't just confess to 00:07:35.500 --> 00:07:38.300 what happened in that specific room. He provided 00:07:38.300 --> 00:07:41.459 his own entirely unprompted context to the FBI 00:07:41.459 --> 00:07:44.300 agent. Oh, right. He implied that this specific 00:07:44.300 --> 00:07:46.680 treatment, bending the detainee's thumbs backward 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:48.699 to the point of pain and grabbing his genitals, 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:51.319 was actually less harsh than how he had seen 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:53.939 Sergeant Lacey treat other detainees. Less harsh. 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:56.240 That's a staggering thing to say. They know. 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:58.899 The source notes highlight other sessions where 00:07:58.899 --> 00:08:01.500 detainees were left curling into a fetal position 00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:04.279 on the floor and crying in pain. The phrase less 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:07.300 harsh is the linchpin of this entire file. It 00:08:07.300 --> 00:08:09.339 really is. I want you, the listener, to pause 00:08:09.339 --> 00:08:11.339 and just think about the environment that produces 00:08:11.339 --> 00:08:13.259 that kind of statement. It says a lot about the 00:08:13.259 --> 00:08:16.040 baseline. Right. The chilling takeaway here isn't 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:18.519 just about one interrogator having a bad day 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:21.480 or going rogue. It points to a concept called 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:24.870 institutional drift. Institutional drift is exactly 00:08:24.870 --> 00:08:27.329 the right framework for this. Because over a 00:08:27.329 --> 00:08:29.750 very short period of time, the environment in 00:08:29.750 --> 00:08:33.029 that camp recalibrated so drastically that a 00:08:33.029 --> 00:08:35.929 Marine genuinely believed bending a man's thumbs 00:08:35.929 --> 00:08:38.929 backwards and grabbing his genitals was an example 00:08:38.929 --> 00:08:41.590 of going easy on someone. Which is terrifying. 00:08:41.750 --> 00:08:44.090 What is the standard operating procedure if that 00:08:44.090 --> 00:08:46.590 is considered the baseline of leniency? Well, 00:08:46.730 --> 00:08:49.330 a system rapidly recalibrates its baseline for 00:08:49.330 --> 00:08:51.690 extreme behavior. Someone pushes a boundary, 00:08:51.690 --> 00:08:54.730 and when nothing happens, that new extreme just 00:08:54.730 --> 00:08:57.009 becomes the center. It becomes normal. Exactly. 00:08:57.710 --> 00:09:01.029 The Marines casual comparison acts as an unintentional 00:09:01.029 --> 00:09:04.450 metric for the entire camp. It takes the allegation 00:09:04.450 --> 00:09:07.009 from an isolated incident and turns it into a 00:09:07.009 --> 00:09:09.909 massive systemic issue. Right. This single snapshot, 00:09:10.250 --> 00:09:11.970 which was captured only because someone forgot 00:09:11.970 --> 00:09:15.710 about a TV monitor, implies a much wider completely 00:09:15.710 --> 00:09:18.389 undocumented pattern of extreme behavior. Behavior 00:09:18.389 --> 00:09:20.389 that was just simply accepted as the everyday 00:09:20.389 --> 00:09:22.409 norm by the people operating in those rooms. 00:09:22.490 --> 00:09:25.110 Yes. But because the military simply shuffled 00:09:25.110 --> 00:09:28.110 these interrogators around, the FBI realized 00:09:28.110 --> 00:09:30.490 ground level observation just wasn't going to 00:09:30.490 --> 00:09:32.809 fix this. Right, they couldn't just keep watching 00:09:32.809 --> 00:09:35.830 monitors. That forced the issue out of the dark 00:09:35.830 --> 00:09:38.190 and up the chain of command. We have to look 00:09:38.190 --> 00:09:40.590 at the bureaucratic level to see how these ground 00:09:40.590 --> 00:09:43.149 -level allegations were handled by the massive 00:09:43.149 --> 00:09:45.350 institutions involved. If we connect this to 00:09:45.350 --> 00:09:47.710 the bigger picture, this is where we see the 00:09:47.710 --> 00:09:50.070 profound friction between the two agencies. The 00:09:50.070 --> 00:09:54.149 FBI and the DOD. Exactly. You have an FBI agent 00:09:54.149 --> 00:09:56.710 taking meticulous notes, which is essentially 00:09:56.710 --> 00:09:59.179 raw data. Yeah. But it requires someone with 00:09:59.179 --> 00:10:02.419 significant authority way up the chain to turn 00:10:02.419 --> 00:10:05.899 that data into institutional action. Enter Thomas 00:10:05.899 --> 00:10:08.159 Harrington. Yes, Harrington. He was the deputy 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:10.340 assistant director for counterterrorism at the 00:10:10.340 --> 00:10:13.059 FBI. The source notes show that Harrington took 00:10:13.059 --> 00:10:15.159 these ground level reports and compiled them 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:17.440 into a formal follow -up letter. Who does he 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:20.389 send it to? He addresses this letter to Major 00:10:20.389 --> 00:10:22.649 General Donald Ryder. Now, to understand the 00:10:22.649 --> 00:10:24.750 friction here, you have to realize this isn't 00:10:24.750 --> 00:10:27.029 too mid -level manager squabbling over office 00:10:27.029 --> 00:10:29.360 policy, you know? I know. Not at all. Thomas 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.340 Harrington is a top -tier FBI counterterrorism 00:10:33.340 --> 00:10:36.419 official, essentially stepping into the military's 00:10:36.419 --> 00:10:38.860 house and telling a two -star general that his 00:10:38.860 --> 00:10:41.080 people are crossing the line. And Ryder was a 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.980 military official already conducting an investigation 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:47.039 into allegations of detainee abuse. Right. That 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:50.600 is an explosive interagency conflict. It really 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:53.440 highlights the conflicting DNA of the two institutions. 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:56.419 I mean, the FBI is fundamentally a law enforcement 00:10:56.419 --> 00:10:59.539 agency. Right. Cops. The mandate is about observation, 00:10:59.879 --> 00:11:02.039 gathering evidence, building an airtight case, 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:03.899 and ultimately bringing it to trial. They need 00:11:03.899 --> 00:11:06.740 paper trails. Exactly. They document everything 00:11:06.740 --> 00:11:10.139 meticulously because in their world, if it isn't 00:11:10.139 --> 00:11:12.220 documented on paper, it literally didn't happen. 00:11:12.539 --> 00:11:14.500 They are the observing and reporting entity. 00:11:14.700 --> 00:11:16.580 Well, on the other side, you have the military 00:11:16.580 --> 00:11:18.879 intelligence apparatus. Precisely. They are the 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:21.299 operating entity. Their mandate, especially in 00:11:21.299 --> 00:11:24.299 Guantanamo in 2004, was purely intelligence gathering. 00:11:24.460 --> 00:11:27.539 So it's about speed and results. The goal was 00:11:27.539 --> 00:11:30.559 actionable information to prevent future threats, 00:11:31.059 --> 00:11:34.820 not necessarily trial ready evidence. So when 00:11:34.820 --> 00:11:38.139 the FBI begins documenting the operational abuses 00:11:38.139 --> 00:11:41.340 of the military, it creates a massive structural 00:11:41.340 --> 00:11:43.980 collision. And Harrington's memo didn't just 00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:46.279 send over the Sergeant Lacey incident in isolation 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:49.059 either. The scope of his letter is critical here. 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:51.850 Right. It was much broader. It highlighted four 00:11:51.850 --> 00:11:55.090 specific examples of abuse. Crucially, the memo 00:11:55.090 --> 00:11:57.029 noted that three of these incidents occurred 00:11:57.029 --> 00:11:59.529 while a man named Jeffrey Miller had overall 00:11:59.529 --> 00:12:02.169 authority over the detainees. So the FBI is pointing 00:12:02.169 --> 00:12:04.789 a finger very high up the military chain of command. 00:12:04.929 --> 00:12:07.149 Oh, yeah. But the most striking detail in this 00:12:07.149 --> 00:12:09.889 bureaucratic exchange isn't the accusation itself. 00:12:09.950 --> 00:12:13.029 It's the consequence or, I guess, the complete 00:12:13.029 --> 00:12:15.289 lack of it. Right. The source states that all 00:12:15.289 --> 00:12:16.950 of those alleged to have committed the abuse 00:12:16.950 --> 00:12:19.309 simply moved on to other assignments. They were 00:12:19.309 --> 00:12:21.809 relocated. The bureaucracy essentially solved 00:12:21.809 --> 00:12:24.629 its internal problem without addressing the actual 00:12:24.629 --> 00:12:27.409 behavior. It's exactly like how a massive corporation 00:12:27.409 --> 00:12:31.309 handles a highly toxic executive. You know, they 00:12:31.309 --> 00:12:33.970 don't fire them because firing them creates a 00:12:33.970 --> 00:12:36.850 public paper trail of admitted fault. It invites 00:12:36.850 --> 00:12:39.490 a massive lawsuit. Exactly. It invites public 00:12:39.490 --> 00:12:42.669 scrutiny. By quietly transferring that executive 00:12:42.669 --> 00:12:45.669 to a branch in another state, the corporation 00:12:45.669 --> 00:12:48.809 diffuses the liability. The military did the 00:12:48.809 --> 00:12:51.330 exact same thing here. It's liability management. 00:12:51.909 --> 00:12:54.570 Right. Transferring personnel to other assignments 00:12:54.570 --> 00:12:57.490 diffuses immediate accountability. It breaks 00:12:57.490 --> 00:13:00.070 the chain of evidence, removes the interrogator 00:13:00.070 --> 00:13:03.350 from the FBI's direct view, and deeply complicates 00:13:03.350 --> 00:13:06.350 any future investigative trail. They manage their 00:13:06.350 --> 00:13:08.519 liability instead of managing their personnel. 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:10.879 And that strategy of managing liability brings 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:13.620 us directly to how this story eventually leaks 00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:16.139 into the public record. Because eventually it 00:13:16.139 --> 00:13:18.240 did. Because while internal memos can be ignored, 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:21.080 public promises carry a different weight. The 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:22.720 public was eventually made aware that something 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:25.080 was happening even if they didn't have the granular 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.259 details of the observation room with the duct 00:13:27.259 --> 00:13:31.460 tape. Right. On December 8, 2004, Lieutenant 00:13:31.460 --> 00:13:33.940 Colonel Gerard Healy gives a statement to CNN. 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.440 He publicly promises that Sergeant Lacy's conduct 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:41.039 is actively under investigation. A formal public 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:43.039 acknowledgement. Furthermore, the Department 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.559 of Defense backs this up with a public assurance. 00:13:46.019 --> 00:13:48.240 They categorically state that the results of 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.820 the investigations into these specific incidents 00:13:50.820 --> 00:13:53.139 will be made public once they are completed. 00:13:53.620 --> 00:13:56.200 They promise daylight to the press and the public. 00:13:56.539 --> 00:13:59.059 But bureaucracy relies on the reality of time 00:13:59.059 --> 00:14:01.980 to erode the promise of transparency. Yeah. And 00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:04.000 the source material hits us with a very stark 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.519 fact regarding that timeline. Fast forward over 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:09.419 two years later. Two whole years. As of February 00:14:09.419 --> 00:14:13.019 18th, 2007, absolutely no results had ever been 00:14:13.019 --> 00:14:15.120 made public. Nothing. The promise was broken. 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:17.080 Total silence from the Department of Defense 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:19.740 regarding Sergeant Lacy's investigation. If it 00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:22.379 were left up to the internal military investigations 00:14:22.379 --> 00:14:24.980 alone, that silence would likely have been permanent. 00:14:25.059 --> 00:14:27.299 But it wasn't permanent because the FBI's paper 00:14:27.299 --> 00:14:29.740 trail still existed. Right. This brings us to 00:14:29.740 --> 00:14:33.460 author Joseph Margulies and his 2007 book, Guantanamo 00:14:33.460 --> 00:14:36.100 and the Abuse of Presidential Power. A key source 00:14:36.100 --> 00:14:38.659 for this deep dive. Exactly. Through Margulies 00:14:38.659 --> 00:14:41.000 work, we learn that the American Liberties Union, 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:44.340 the ACLU, eventually obtained an unredacted version 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:46.820 of Thomas Harrington's original memo. The one 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:49.639 sent to the Major General? Yes. It was in this 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:51.919 unredacted document that Sergeant Lacy's full 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:54.820 name was finally spelled out, pulled from the 00:14:54.820 --> 00:14:57.399 shadows of a redacted black bar. The paperwork 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:00.440 survived the institutional silence. So what does 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:03.240 this all mean? I look at the missing investigation 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:06.360 results and the broken promises to CNN, and the 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:09.009 immediate instinct is to yell, cover up. Right. 00:15:09.070 --> 00:15:10.830 It feels like a conspiracy. But I want to look 00:15:10.830 --> 00:15:13.210 at the mechanics of this. I mean, is it truly 00:15:13.210 --> 00:15:16.350 a malicious smoky room cover up if the paperwork 00:15:16.350 --> 00:15:18.870 meticulously detailing the abuse did exist the 00:15:18.870 --> 00:15:21.070 whole time? That's a fair point. The FBI wrote 00:15:21.070 --> 00:15:23.389 it down. It was formally filed. It was sent to 00:15:23.389 --> 00:15:25.929 a major general. It wasn't like burned in a barrel. 00:15:26.009 --> 00:15:28.850 It was sitting in a system until the ACLU acquired 00:15:28.850 --> 00:15:32.210 it. Isn't the real issue here not a lack of documentation, 00:15:32.210 --> 00:15:35.590 but a profound lack of systemic follow through? 00:15:35.669 --> 00:15:38.019 The machine recorded the error perfectly. but 00:15:38.019 --> 00:15:40.960 the machine simply refused to correct it. This 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:42.700 raises an important question, and it's really 00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:45.279 the most sobering realization of this entire 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:47.879 deep dive. It changes how we understand complicity. 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:52.139 Oh, so... Joseph Margulies, in his book, arrives 00:15:52.139 --> 00:15:54.820 at a very dark conclusion based on these documents. 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:57.860 He concluded that while the description of this 00:15:57.860 --> 00:16:00.940 specific kind of abuse... You know, the lotion, 00:16:01.139 --> 00:16:03.899 the sensory disorientation, the bent thumbs was 00:16:03.899 --> 00:16:06.519 rarely offered to the public. The abuse itself 00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:10.019 was, in fact, extremely common. Wow. So it was 00:16:10.019 --> 00:16:12.059 standard operating procedure hidden in plain 00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:14.399 sight. Exactly. A bureaucracy doesn't always 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:16.580 have to destroy documents to hide the truth. 00:16:16.779 --> 00:16:19.179 That requires active conspiracy, which is risky. 00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:20.919 Right. That leaves a different kind of trail. 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:23.159 Instead, they just have to ensure those documents 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:25.559 never reach the light of day unprompted. They 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:28.019 rely on bureaucratic inertia. Just letting it 00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:30.299 sit in a filing cabinet. Yeah. The military didn't 00:16:30.299 --> 00:16:33.059 deny the FBI wrote the memo. They just chose 00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:35.620 not to act publicly on the investigation it triggered. 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:39.100 If the ACLU hadn't legally forced the unredacted 00:16:39.100 --> 00:16:41.679 memo into the public sphere, Sergeant Lacey would 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.379 have remained a ghost in a redacted file. Because 00:16:44.379 --> 00:16:47.139 secrecy by omission is far more effective than 00:16:47.139 --> 00:16:50.059 secrecy by destruction. Well said. Because the 00:16:50.059 --> 00:16:52.639 sheer volume of the bureaucracy protects it. 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:54.460 I mean, let's look back at the chain of events 00:16:54.460 --> 00:16:56.850 that actually forced this into the light. It's 00:16:56.850 --> 00:16:59.909 quite a change. We started in a sterile observation 00:16:59.909 --> 00:17:03.330 room in Guantanamo Bay staring at a window physically 00:17:03.330 --> 00:17:06.480 covered by a duct taped curtain. But because 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:08.900 a secondary closed -circuit monitor was left 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:12.440 on, an FBI agent witnessed a deeply unsettling 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:14.980 psychological tactic designed to break a human 00:17:14.980 --> 00:17:17.539 mind. The lotion and the pain. Right. And that 00:17:17.539 --> 00:17:20.339 visual led to a Marine's testimony, which revealed 00:17:20.339 --> 00:17:22.819 the terrifying institutional drift of the camp, 00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:25.599 where severe physical abuse was categorized as 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:28.660 going easy. Less harsh. Because the FBI documented 00:17:28.660 --> 00:17:31.559 that reality, it sparked a massive interagency 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.220 conflict between top counterterrorism officials 00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:38.059 and which led to the quiet reassignments. Exactly. 00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:40.619 The military buried the accountability and other 00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:42.859 assignments to manage their liability and broke 00:17:42.859 --> 00:17:45.160 their public promises of transparency to CNN. 00:17:45.619 --> 00:17:48.720 And finally, years later, an ACLU lawsuit dragged 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:51.079 an unredacted memo back into the public record. 00:17:51.420 --> 00:17:54.140 It is a perfect case study in how history is 00:17:54.140 --> 00:17:57.000 actually recorded. It isn't recorded by grand 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.799 public declarations. No. It is recorded by the 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:02.720 stubborn persistence of an observer taking notes 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.180 when they are told to look away. And as we wrap 00:18:05.180 --> 00:18:07.599 up, we want to reiterate our promise to you from 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.559 the beginning. Every detail we unpack today, 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.700 the physical abuse, the psychological tactics, 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:17.359 the high level memos between Thomas Harrington 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:21.039 and Donald Reiter, the broken promises of transparency. 00:18:21.259 --> 00:18:24.180 Oh, wait, no ellipses? Ah, right. All of these 00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:26.180 are presented to you exactly as they exist in 00:18:26.180 --> 00:18:28.720 the public record and the media reports from 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:31.680 CNN, the Boston Globe and the Sydney Morning 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.130 Herald. We present the architecture of the event 00:18:34.130 --> 00:18:36.230 so you can weigh the facts and the historical 00:18:36.230 --> 00:18:38.710 record for yourself. Exactly. But as we close, 00:18:38.789 --> 00:18:40.589 there's one final thought I want you to consider. 00:18:40.910 --> 00:18:43.910 OK, let's hear it. It's about the bizarre permanence 00:18:43.910 --> 00:18:46.789 of record keeping in a digital age. Oh, I like 00:18:46.789 --> 00:18:48.509 where this is going. Think about the physical 00:18:48.509 --> 00:18:51.130 act that started all of this. An interrogator 00:18:51.130 --> 00:18:53.970 ordered a Marine to tape a curtain over a window. 00:18:54.650 --> 00:18:57.710 In a pre -digital era, that physical barrier 00:18:57.710 --> 00:19:00.059 would have been absolute. The dark room would 00:19:00.059 --> 00:19:03.440 have remained entirely dark. Yes. And on a macro 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.299 level, the military bureaucracy successfully 00:19:06.299 --> 00:19:10.559 buried the internal investigation. The DOD never 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.839 voluntarily released the final results to the 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:16.059 public. So by all institutional measures, the 00:19:16.059 --> 00:19:18.119 curtain worked perfectly. But the monitor was 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.539 on. The monitor was on. An FBI agent chose to 00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:24.059 watch it, chose to investigate the blind spot, 00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:27.109 and chose to write down what he heard. Despite 00:19:27.109 --> 00:19:29.309 the physical cover -up, and despite years of 00:19:29.309 --> 00:19:31.309 institutional silence and bureaucratic inertia, 00:19:31.970 --> 00:19:34.650 the meticulous note -taking of one single agent 00:19:34.650 --> 00:19:37.049 ensured that Sergeant Lacey would permanently 00:19:37.049 --> 00:19:40.569 exist in the historical record. It forces you 00:19:40.569 --> 00:19:43.009 to wonder in the long, dark corridors of history 00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:45.490 how many other pivotal events, how many other 00:19:45.490 --> 00:19:48.329 truths, only exist today simply because one person 00:19:48.329 --> 00:19:50.349 decided to keep watching the secondary monitor 00:19:50.349 --> 00:19:52.789 when the curtain was drawn. It's a really heavy 00:19:52.789 --> 00:19:54.670 thought to carry with you. Thank you for joining 00:19:54.670 --> 00:19:57.329 us on this custom tailored deep dive. We hope 00:19:57.329 --> 00:19:59.470 it gave you some clarity on a dense and complex 00:19:59.470 --> 00:20:02.150 piece of history. Until next time, keep exploring 00:20:02.150 --> 00:20:03.369 the hidden corners of the record.