WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.480 I want you to start off today by closing your 00:00:01.480 --> 00:00:05.320 eyes just for a second. Imagine an object that 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:08.220 is incredibly small. Like really small. Yeah, 00:00:08.259 --> 00:00:10.859 exactly. We're talking about something that is 00:00:10.859 --> 00:00:15.359 precisely 3 .56 centimeters by 3 .53 centimeters. 00:00:15.660 --> 00:00:18.579 So basically a tiny square. Right. And it is 00:00:18.579 --> 00:00:21.600 a mere 7 .6 millimeters thick. If you are trying 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.719 to picture that, it is actually smaller than 00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:26.559 a standard matchbook. Barely the size of a postage 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:29.859 stamp, honestly. Yeah. But yet, this tiny, unassuming 00:00:29.859 --> 00:00:33.000 little square has managed to spark almost a century 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:35.979 of intense, sometimes downright fiery academic 00:00:35.979 --> 00:00:38.719 debate. Oh, absolutely fiery. It has fundamentally 00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:41.179 influenced how we understand the historical development 00:00:41.179 --> 00:00:43.539 of a major world religion, and it even became 00:00:43.539 --> 00:00:45.939 a literal geopolitical prize. Which is wild, 00:00:46.020 --> 00:00:48.600 a point of serious contention between two newly 00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:51.240 formed nations. Welcome to today's Deep Dive. 00:00:51.640 --> 00:00:53.820 Our mission today is to thoroughly explore this 00:00:53.820 --> 00:00:57.679 tiny 4 ,000 -year -old carving known as the Pashupati 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:59.899 seal. Also known as the Mahayuki or the Proto 00:00:59.899 --> 00:01:02.219 -Shiva seal. Exactly. It was uncovered in the 00:01:02.219 --> 00:01:04.200 ancient ruins of the Indus Valley civilization 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:07.760 city of Mohenjo -daro. And we are going to examine 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:10.659 the physical artifact itself, trace its rather 00:01:10.659 --> 00:01:13.579 dramatic modern history, and really dig into 00:01:13.579 --> 00:01:16.540 the fiercely debated and, frankly, completely 00:01:16.540 --> 00:01:19.099 contradictory interpretations of what exactly 00:01:19.099 --> 00:01:21.439 the figure on this stone represents. And as we 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:23.420 get into this, I want you to imagine the visual 00:01:23.420 --> 00:01:25.560 backdrop for our conversation today, transitioning 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:28.980 from the dusty, ancient, sun -baked brick ruins 00:01:28.980 --> 00:01:31.680 of the Indus Valley to the towering, endlessly 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:34.739 complex bookshelves of modern academic institutions. 00:01:35.159 --> 00:01:37.000 I love that image. Because for you, the listener, 00:01:37.140 --> 00:01:40.480 understanding this seal is deeply relevant. I 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:42.640 mean, we live in a world of constant information 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:45.480 overload. We are bombarded with data every single 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:47.939 day. After data. Right. And this tiny stone seal 00:01:47.939 --> 00:01:50.500 serves as an absolute masterclass in how different 00:01:50.500 --> 00:01:52.959 people looking at the exact same piece of evidence 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:55.140 can come to entirely contradictory conclusions. 00:01:55.700 --> 00:01:58.540 It is a phenomenal case study in human perception, 00:01:58.859 --> 00:02:02.129 bias, and the stories we tell ourselves. Okay, 00:02:02.170 --> 00:02:03.969 let's unpack this. Let's start with the physical 00:02:03.969 --> 00:02:06.230 artifact itself, because the amount of detail 00:02:06.230 --> 00:02:09.490 squeezed into this tiny piece of stone is frankly 00:02:09.490 --> 00:02:11.949 mind -boggling. It really is a masterpiece. It 00:02:11.949 --> 00:02:14.889 dates back to around 2200 BC, and it is made 00:02:14.889 --> 00:02:17.789 of steatite. Which is a type of easily carved 00:02:17.789 --> 00:02:21.210 soapstone. Right, soapstone. So carved right 00:02:21.210 --> 00:02:24.210 in the center is a human figure. This figure 00:02:24.210 --> 00:02:28.270 is seated on a dais, or a raised platform, facing 00:02:28.270 --> 00:02:31.689 straight forward. And the posture is incredibly 00:02:31.689 --> 00:02:34.650 specific. The legs are bent at the knees, the 00:02:34.650 --> 00:02:36.830 heels are touching, and the toes are pointing 00:02:36.830 --> 00:02:39.169 straight downward. It's a very deliberate pose. 00:02:39.449 --> 00:02:42.229 Very. The arms are extended outward, resting 00:02:42.229 --> 00:02:44.430 very lightly on the knees, with the thumbs facing 00:02:44.430 --> 00:02:47.110 away from the body. And the adornments, the arms 00:02:47.110 --> 00:02:49.310 are completely covered in bangles. Like, entirely 00:02:49.310 --> 00:02:51.710 covered. Yeah. Eight small ones and three large 00:02:51.710 --> 00:02:54.150 ones. The chest is draped in what appear to be 00:02:54.150 --> 00:02:56.310 elaborate necklaces, and there's a double band 00:02:56.310 --> 00:02:58.680 wrapping right around the waist. But the most 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:00.900 striking feature has to be the headdress. Oh, 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:03.460 the headdress is iconic. It's this tall, intricate 00:03:03.460 --> 00:03:06.039 fan -shaped structure right in the middle, flanked 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:09.300 by two massive striated animal horns. The level 00:03:09.300 --> 00:03:12.039 of craftsmanship required to carve those details 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:15.979 into a piece of steatite that small is remarkable. 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:18.280 And you really have to look at the periphery 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:21.000 to understand the full scope of the image. There's 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:23.120 more going on than just the central figure. Way 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:25.780 more. Surrounding the central figure are four 00:03:25.780 --> 00:03:29.199 very distinct wild animals. On one side, you 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:31.900 have an elephant and a tiger. On the other side, 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:34.979 a water buffalo and an Indian rhinoceros. It's 00:03:34.979 --> 00:03:38.599 a whole menagerie. Exactly. And just below the 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:40.539 platform the figure is sitting on, there are 00:03:40.539 --> 00:03:43.900 two smaller animals, deer or ibexes, and they 00:03:43.900 --> 00:03:46.400 are looking backward over their shoulders so 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:48.919 that their curved horns almost meet in the center. 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:52.319 That is so specific. It is. Finally, squeezed 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:54.319 in at the very top of the seal, there are seven 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:57.300 distinct symbols of the Indus script. The final 00:03:57.300 --> 00:03:59.840 symbol is actually slightly displaced. Oh, right. 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.060 Pushed downward. Yeah, pushed down seemingly 00:04:02.060 --> 00:04:04.240 because the carver just ran out of horizontal 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:06.969 space. It is like an An ancient high stakes game 00:04:06.969 --> 00:04:09.409 of Tetris trying to fit all that in before you 00:04:09.409 --> 00:04:11.030 hit the edge of the stone. That's a great way 00:04:11.030 --> 00:04:13.090 to put it. Now, fast forward a few millennia. 00:04:13.210 --> 00:04:15.289 How did this thing actually see the light of 00:04:15.289 --> 00:04:18.209 day again? Well, the discovery takes us to 1928 00:04:18.209 --> 00:04:21.709 or 1929. The seal was uncovered by an excavation 00:04:21.709 --> 00:04:24.430 team directed by Ernest McKay and Mohenjo -Daro, 00:04:24.629 --> 00:04:27.129 which is located in modern day Pakistan. Deep 00:04:27.129 --> 00:04:29.389 underground. Quite deep, yeah. At a depth of 00:04:29.389 --> 00:04:32.569 3 .9 meters below the surface. They documented 00:04:32.569 --> 00:04:36.639 it. and numbered it 420 in McKay's official report. 00:04:36.860 --> 00:04:38.639 Which is why you will sometimes hear it referred 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:42.680 to simply as Seal 420. Precisely. But the story 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:45.100 gets incredibly tense after it was pulled from 00:04:45.100 --> 00:04:47.639 the earth. The finds were initially moved to 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:49.819 the Archaeological Survey of India headquarters 00:04:49.819 --> 00:04:53.079 in Nideli. But as we know, the partition of India 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.199 was approaching in 1947. A hugely turbulent time. 00:04:56.279 --> 00:04:58.790 Extremely. And a massive logistical and cultural 00:04:58.790 --> 00:05:01.649 dispute arose over who got to keep what. Right, 00:05:01.709 --> 00:05:03.889 because Pakistan naturally requested the return 00:05:03.889 --> 00:05:06.670 of the Harappan artifacts excavated on their 00:05:06.670 --> 00:05:08.689 territory. But the collection had already been 00:05:08.689 --> 00:05:11.189 moved to Delhi. How do you even begin to divide 00:05:11.189 --> 00:05:13.550 up a collection of that magnitude? It was an 00:05:13.550 --> 00:05:16.170 arduous process. They had to negotiate an agreement 00:05:16.170 --> 00:05:20.029 to split roughly 12 ,000 excavated objects equally 00:05:20.029 --> 00:05:22.290 between the two new countries. 12 ,000 objects. 00:05:22.430 --> 00:05:25.339 Yeah. And I want you to really picture how literal 00:05:25.339 --> 00:05:27.519 this division was. It wasn't just you take this 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:29.759 crate, we'll take that one. It was so strictly 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.639 enforced that in some cases, individual bead 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:35.259 necklaces and girdles were literally taken apart. 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:38.399 Wait, really? Yes. With the beads separated into 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.959 two piles, one for India, one for Pakistan. That 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:44.600 is wild to think about. A 4 ,000 -year -old piece 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.959 of jewelry being dismantled bead by bead just 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.459 to satisfy modern borders. It highlights how 00:05:50.459 --> 00:05:53.050 much cultural weight these artifacts carry. When 00:05:53.050 --> 00:05:55.430 it came to the most celebrated sculpted figures 00:05:55.430 --> 00:05:58.069 from the excavation, they couldn't just cut them 00:05:58.069 --> 00:06:00.209 in half, so they had to make hard choices. Who 00:06:00.209 --> 00:06:02.889 got what? Pakistan asked for and received the 00:06:02.889 --> 00:06:06.209 famous Priest King figure. India, in turn, retained 00:06:06.209 --> 00:06:08.589 the bronze Dancing Girl statue, and they kept 00:06:08.589 --> 00:06:11.350 the Pashupati seal. It resides today in the National 00:06:11.350 --> 00:06:14.230 Museum of India in Delhi. So the artifact itself 00:06:14.230 --> 00:06:17.439 survives the split intact. But let's dive into 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:19.879 the core of the debate, the interpretation. Because 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:22.000 for generations, there was essentially one theory 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:24.819 that absolutely ruled the academic landscape. 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:27.800 The paradigm. Right. This theory came from John 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:29.939 Marshall, the director general of the Archaeological 00:06:29.939 --> 00:06:33.680 Survey of India. He looked at this seal and declared 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:36.379 it an early prototype of the major Hindu god 00:06:36.379 --> 00:06:40.399 Shiva, specifically his Vedic predecessor, Rudra. 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:43.240 What's fascinating here is how methodical Marshall's 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:46.360 argument was. He built a very compelling case 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.259 resting on four main pillars. Brink those down 00:06:49.259 --> 00:06:51.639 for us. First, Marshall looked at the face. He 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:53.779 argued the figure was three -faced, with the 00:06:53.779 --> 00:06:56.389 possible fourth face implied in the back. In 00:06:56.389 --> 00:06:58.649 historical portrayals, Shiva is commonly depicted 00:06:58.649 --> 00:07:00.990 with three or five faces. Okay, that makes sense. 00:07:01.170 --> 00:07:03.750 Second, he pointed to the horned headdress. He 00:07:03.750 --> 00:07:06.350 saw a resemblance there to the trizula or trident, 00:07:06.430 --> 00:07:09.050 as well as to bullhorns, both of which are classic 00:07:09.050 --> 00:07:11.930 emblems of Shiva. Okay, three faces and a trident 00:07:11.930 --> 00:07:14.709 -like hat, I get. But how does sitting cross 00:07:14.709 --> 00:07:16.970 -legged immediately jump to a definitive identification 00:07:16.970 --> 00:07:19.769 of Shiva? That brings us to Marshall's third 00:07:19.769 --> 00:07:23.449 pillar, the posture. It is a highly specific, 00:07:23.670 --> 00:07:27.370 typical yoga attitude. Later scholars, like Thomas 00:07:27.370 --> 00:07:31.110 McEvely, specifically identified it as Mulabandhasana. 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:35.139 Yes. This is critical to the argument because 00:07:35.139 --> 00:07:38.300 Shiva is traditionally revered as the Mahayogi, 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.399 the absolute prince of yogis. Finally, the fourth 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:45.060 pillar revolves around the animals. The central 00:07:45.060 --> 00:07:47.800 figure is completely surrounded by wild beasts. 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:50.639 Right. The tiger, the rhino, the elephant. Exactly. 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:53.480 Historically, one of Shiva's primary epithets 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:56.920 is Pashupati, which literally translates to the 00:07:56.920 --> 00:07:59.660 lord of animals. So Marshall puts the faces, 00:07:59.740 --> 00:08:02.170 the horns, the... yoga pose and the animals together 00:08:02.170 --> 00:08:05.329 and concludes this is definitively a proto -Shiva. 00:08:05.509 --> 00:08:07.509 But Marshall also pointed out something else 00:08:07.509 --> 00:08:09.550 that sparked a whole separate debate regarding 00:08:09.550 --> 00:08:12.350 the anatomy of the figure. The anatomical ambiguity. 00:08:12.730 --> 00:08:14.649 Yeah. He observed that the figure appeared to 00:08:14.649 --> 00:08:17.709 be ethyphallic, meaning it had an erect phallus. 00:08:17.870 --> 00:08:20.269 This creates a very strong connection to Shiva, 00:08:20.389 --> 00:08:23.430 who is deeply associated with the Linga in later 00:08:23.430 --> 00:08:25.730 Hindu traditions. Though, to be fair to Marshall, 00:08:25.829 --> 00:08:28.850 he did concede a bit of doubt here. He did. He 00:08:28.850 --> 00:08:31.550 admitted that what looked like a phallus could 00:08:31.550 --> 00:08:34.629 potentially just be a tassel hanging down from 00:08:34.629 --> 00:08:36.889 that double waistband we mentioned earlier. Despite 00:08:36.889 --> 00:08:39.909 that slight anatomical ambiguity, his overall 00:08:39.909 --> 00:08:43.649 theory became the absolute paradigm. For at least 00:08:43.649 --> 00:08:46.269 two full generations, this interpretation was 00:08:46.269 --> 00:08:48.370 universally accepted. It was essentially treated 00:08:48.370 --> 00:08:51.029 as fact. It deeply influenced scholarly understanding 00:08:51.029 --> 00:08:54.389 of the historical development of Hinduism. Any 00:08:54.389 --> 00:08:56.389 subsequent scholar writing about the religion 00:08:56.389 --> 00:08:59.190 of the Indus Valley civilization basically had 00:08:59.190 --> 00:09:01.809 to start their work by referencing Marshall's 00:09:01.809 --> 00:09:04.570 Proto -Shiva theory. It was the definitive lens 00:09:04.570 --> 00:09:07.190 through which this entire ancient culture was 00:09:07.190 --> 00:09:09.570 viewed. Here's where it gets really interesting. 00:09:09.980 --> 00:09:12.179 Because in academia, paradigms are made to be 00:09:12.179 --> 00:09:14.320 challenged and are the skeptics, bringing a wave 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:17.240 of entirely competing interpretations. And the 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:20.039 first major rebellion flips the entire script 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:22.379 on its head. Oh, completely. We move into what 00:09:22.379 --> 00:09:24.759 we could call the anatomical skeptics. Herbert 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:27.100 Sullivan came along and argued that the figure 00:09:27.100 --> 00:09:30.299 isn't a male god at all. He proposed it is actually 00:09:30.299 --> 00:09:33.080 a female goddess. Sullivan zeroed right in on 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:35.139 that anatomical ambiguity you just mentioned. 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:38.460 He argued that the so -called erect phallus is 00:09:38.460 --> 00:09:41.580 unmistakably just the dangling end of a waistband 00:09:41.580 --> 00:09:44.299 or girdle. Just a tassel. Just a tassel. And 00:09:44.299 --> 00:09:46.659 his reasoning was comparative. He pointed out 00:09:46.659 --> 00:09:49.100 that this exact same feature is found on many 00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:51.620 terracotta figurines from the region that are 00:09:51.620 --> 00:09:54.570 undoubtedly female. That's a strong point. Furthermore, 00:09:54.789 --> 00:09:56.549 in the art of the Indus Valley civilization, 00:09:57.009 --> 00:09:59.970 male figures are almost exclusively depicted 00:09:59.970 --> 00:10:03.610 nude. But our figure on the seal is covered in 00:10:03.610 --> 00:10:06.610 heavy jewelry, those bangles and necklaces. In 00:10:06.610 --> 00:10:08.850 the context of Indus art, that kind of heavy 00:10:08.850 --> 00:10:11.409 ornamentation is highly characteristic of female 00:10:11.409 --> 00:10:15.230 figures, not male ones. A goddess. That's a massive 00:10:15.230 --> 00:10:18.450 pivot from the supreme male yogi. But the anatomical 00:10:18.450 --> 00:10:21.429 scrutiny doesn't stop there. By the 1970s, Doris 00:10:21.429 --> 00:10:24.149 Srinivasan brings a whole new perspective. She 00:10:24.149 --> 00:10:26.049 takes a much closer look at those three faces 00:10:26.049 --> 00:10:27.750 Marshall saw. And she sees something entirely 00:10:27.750 --> 00:10:29.690 different. She essentially says, wait a minute, 00:10:29.730 --> 00:10:31.789 those lateral projections on the sides aren't 00:10:31.789 --> 00:10:34.210 human faces at all. Those are cow -like ears. 00:10:34.429 --> 00:10:36.850 She argues that the central face itself has incredibly 00:10:36.850 --> 00:10:40.230 predominant bovine features. Srinivasan built 00:10:40.230 --> 00:10:43.250 an excellent iconological assessment. She didn't 00:10:43.250 --> 00:10:45.289 look at the seal in isolation. She connected 00:10:45.289 --> 00:10:48.090 it to the broader material culture. She drew 00:10:48.090 --> 00:10:50.610 parallels between the figure on seal 420 and 00:10:50.610 --> 00:10:54.090 a horned mask discovered in Mahanjodaro, a terracotta 00:10:54.090 --> 00:10:56.789 bull from Kalabangan, and a water pitcher from 00:10:56.789 --> 00:11:00.090 Katdiji that also depicts a horned deity. Looking 00:11:00.090 --> 00:11:02.990 at the wider context. Exactly. Her conclusion 00:11:02.990 --> 00:11:05.809 was that this central figure is not a human god 00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:08.980 or goddess. but a divine buffalo man. A buffalo 00:11:08.980 --> 00:11:12.220 man. Which naturally leads us straight into another 00:11:12.220 --> 00:11:14.460 layer of this debate, where scholars start looking 00:11:14.460 --> 00:11:17.100 at the cultural and linguistic roots. Because 00:11:17.100 --> 00:11:19.799 Alf Hildebeitel expanded on this buffalo imagery 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:22.639 and suggested something fascinating. The demon 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:25.200 theory. Yes. He argued this figure might be a 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:27.440 prototype of Mahishasura, the famous buffalo 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:30.200 demon, who is the archenemy of the Hindu goddess 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:32.860 Durga. Hildebeitel's logic relies on a very keen 00:11:32.860 --> 00:11:35.970 observation of the local fauna. He is emphatic 00:11:35.970 --> 00:11:37.809 that the people of the Indus Valley civilization 00:11:37.809 --> 00:11:40.190 were intimately familiar with both bulls and 00:11:40.190 --> 00:11:42.250 water buffaloes. They knew the difference. They 00:11:42.250 --> 00:11:43.970 weren't just drawing generic horned animals. 00:11:44.149 --> 00:11:47.269 No, not at all. The horns carved onto the headdress 00:11:47.269 --> 00:11:49.950 of our figure are definitively buffalo horns. 00:11:50.110 --> 00:11:53.129 They are sweeping and striated, not the horns 00:11:53.129 --> 00:11:55.460 of a bull. Why does it matter so much if it's 00:11:55.460 --> 00:11:57.620 a bull or a buffalo? That seems like such a minor 00:11:57.620 --> 00:11:59.519 distinction to hang a whole religious theory 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:02.299 on. It matters immensely because it is a massive 00:12:02.299 --> 00:12:05.379 blow to Marshall's proto -Shiva theory. Shiva's 00:12:05.379 --> 00:12:08.500 traditional mount, his Vahana, is Nandi, the 00:12:08.500 --> 00:12:11.580 bull. If this is an early Shiva, why would he 00:12:11.580 --> 00:12:13.940 be wearing the horns of a buffalo? Ah, I see. 00:12:14.220 --> 00:12:16.600 Hiltabedl argues it would require too many logical 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:19.240 leaps to retain credibility. Furthermore, he 00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:21.799 points out the prominent tiger on the seal, which 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:24.639 could very well relate to the goddess Durga herself, 00:12:24.779 --> 00:12:27.620 who is classically depicted riding a tiger or 00:12:27.620 --> 00:12:30.100 a lion. So if it's not a god, not a goddess, 00:12:30.220 --> 00:12:32.299 and maybe not even a demon, what else could it 00:12:32.299 --> 00:12:34.379 possibly be? Did anyone look outside of religion 00:12:34.379 --> 00:12:37.379 entirely? Actually, yes. This is where we see 00:12:37.379 --> 00:12:39.580 scholars attempting to decode the seal through 00:12:39.580 --> 00:12:42.879 a secular or purely linguistic lens. The American 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:45.320 archaeologist Walter Fair Service viewed the 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:47.659 script on the seal as an early Dravidian language. 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:50.980 Okay, focusing on the text. Yes, and he interpreted 00:12:50.980 --> 00:12:54.340 the central figure not as a deity, but as a paramount 00:12:54.340 --> 00:12:58.220 human chief named Anil. According to Fair Service, 00:12:58.460 --> 00:13:00.919 the four wild animals simply represented four 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:04.090 distinct clans that this chief ruled over. That 00:13:04.090 --> 00:13:06.330 brings it completely down to earth. A political 00:13:06.330 --> 00:13:09.259 leader rather than a religious icon. Then you 00:13:09.259 --> 00:13:12.159 have the Finnish Indologist Asko Parpola, who 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:14.220 offers yet another Dravidian interpretation. 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:17.259 Parpola suggested that the yogic pose itself 00:13:17.259 --> 00:13:19.919 might not be native to the region, but rather 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:22.559 an imitation of the Proto -Elamite way of representing 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:25.820 seated bulls in art. So, borrowing artistic styles. 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:28.899 Right. After attempting to translate the inscription, 00:13:29.340 --> 00:13:31.919 Parpola concluded the figure represents a servant 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:34.799 of an aquatic deity. He noted that the animals 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.139 shown best resemble those associated with the 00:13:37.139 --> 00:13:39.450 Hindu god Varuna. aligning with the prominent 00:13:39.450 --> 00:13:41.950 aquatic themes we know existed in the Indus religion, 00:13:42.210 --> 00:13:44.970 given their massive public baths. Okay, we have 00:13:44.970 --> 00:13:46.850 to mention one more theory, the Vedic interpretation 00:13:46.850 --> 00:13:50.269 by MVN Krishna Rao, because it is just quite 00:13:50.269 --> 00:13:52.509 the mental gymnastic routine. It really is something. 00:13:52.750 --> 00:13:54.950 It's like a modern -day conspiracy theorist standing 00:13:54.950 --> 00:13:57.049 in front of a corkboard connecting random photos 00:13:57.049 --> 00:14:01.250 with red string. Rao looked at the seal and decided 00:14:01.250 --> 00:14:04.450 it represents the Hindu god Indra. But to make 00:14:04.450 --> 00:14:06.850 this work, he essentially had to edit the physical 00:14:06.850 --> 00:14:09.250 evidence on the fly. Just ignore what doesn't 00:14:09.250 --> 00:14:12.149 fit. Exactly. He argued that we should just ignore 00:14:12.149 --> 00:14:14.470 the tiger because it is carved much larger than 00:14:14.470 --> 00:14:17.309 the other animals. Then he said we should also 00:14:17.309 --> 00:14:19.389 ignore the two deer at the bottom because they 00:14:19.389 --> 00:14:21.710 are sitting under the table. So convenient. Right. 00:14:21.870 --> 00:14:24.690 So having arbitrarily removed three of the animals 00:14:24.690 --> 00:14:27.250 from the equation, he took the first phoneme, 00:14:27.250 --> 00:14:29.639 the starting sound. of the remaining animals, 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:32.440 combined them with the word Nara, meaning man, 00:14:32.620 --> 00:14:35.899 and spelled out Makhanasana, which happens to 00:14:35.899 --> 00:14:38.740 be an epithet for Indra. It is a textbook example 00:14:38.740 --> 00:14:41.379 of confirmation bias. You have a theory, and 00:14:41.379 --> 00:14:43.779 you selectively prune the data until it fits 00:14:43.779 --> 00:14:46.539 your desired outcome, discarding whatever contradicts 00:14:46.539 --> 00:14:49.299 you. You can't just ignore the giant tiger in 00:14:49.299 --> 00:14:51.720 the room because it ruins your acronym. That 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.580 is not how archaeology works. So what does this 00:14:54.580 --> 00:14:57.549 all mean? How are you, the listener, supposed 00:14:57.549 --> 00:15:00.769 to make sense of a male god, a female goddess, 00:15:01.070 --> 00:15:04.409 a divine buffalo demon, a human gland chief, 00:15:04.610 --> 00:15:07.370 and an aquatic servant all supposedly existing 00:15:07.370 --> 00:15:09.870 within the exact same three and a half centimeter 00:15:09.870 --> 00:15:12.350 carving? If we connect this to the bigger picture, 00:15:12.610 --> 00:15:14.629 it requires us to pause and listen to the more 00:15:14.629 --> 00:15:17.649 cautious voices in modern academia. Scholars 00:15:17.649 --> 00:15:20.250 like the American Indologist Wendy Doniger have 00:15:20.250 --> 00:15:22.789 pointed out a crucial reality check. We need 00:15:22.789 --> 00:15:25.629 one of those. Yes. There are undeniable general 00:15:25.629 --> 00:15:28.110 resemblances between the figure on the seal and 00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:31.049 much later Hindu images of Shiva. And yes, the 00:15:31.049 --> 00:15:32.950 Indus people might have had a symbolism of the 00:15:32.950 --> 00:15:35.789 divine phallus. But as Doniger writes, we simply 00:15:35.789 --> 00:15:37.940 cannot know it. Because the distance in time 00:15:37.940 --> 00:15:41.059 is just too great. Exactly. A visual resemblance 00:15:41.059 --> 00:15:43.320 does not automatically mean the Indus images 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:45.519 are the historical source of those later Hindu 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:48.000 images, nor does it guarantee they held the same 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:49.679 cultural meaning. Right. It's like finding a 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.860 modern stop sign 4 ,000 years from now and assuming 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:55.139 it was an object of religious worship simply 00:15:55.139 --> 00:15:57.139 because it's red and octagonal and placed at 00:15:57.139 --> 00:15:59.740 crossroads. The context is entirely missing. 00:15:59.940 --> 00:16:02.360 And the scholar Jeffrey Samuel hits the nail 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:04.919 completely on the head. When looking at this 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:07.960 massive pile of competing theories, he plainly 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:10.779 states that they certainly cannot all be right. 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:15.320 There is no obvious, objective method for choosing 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:17.899 one interpretation over the other. Because we 00:16:17.899 --> 00:16:20.159 know so little with absolute certainty about 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:22.539 the actual religious practices of the Indus Valley 00:16:22.539 --> 00:16:25.460 civilization, interpreting this seal has become 00:16:25.460 --> 00:16:28.740 an exercise in projection. As Samuel warns, the 00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:31.440 evidence is so dependent on modern viewers reading 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.940 later practices backward into the ancient material 00:16:33.940 --> 00:16:36.840 that it makes constructing a definitive, factual 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:39.600 history nearly impossible. It's essentially a 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:42.860 century -long academic Rorschach test. A scholar 00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:45.080 trained in Vedic traditions looks at the seal 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:48.019 and sees a Vedic god. A feminist historian looks 00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:50.759 at it and sees a goddess. A linguist sees a linguistic 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:53.139 puzzle. They're all projecting their own expertise 00:16:53.139 --> 00:16:55.700 onto this blank slate of a stone. This raises 00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:57.940 an important question for anyone trying to learn 00:16:57.940 --> 00:17:00.539 about history, or really anyone analyzing data 00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:04.200 in their daily lives. For nearly 100 years, brilliant, 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:06.859 dedicated scholars have looked into that tiny 00:17:06.859 --> 00:17:10.200 piece of carved steatite and seen their own academic 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:13.119 backgrounds reflected back at them. The seal 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:16.140 absorbs it all. A mirror for the academics. Truly. 00:17:16.650 --> 00:17:19.730 It shows us that when the context is lost, the 00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:22.849 human mind will inevitably rush in to fill the 00:17:22.849 --> 00:17:25.309 vacuum with its own stories, its own biases, 00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:27.930 and its own desired outcomes. It really is a 00:17:27.930 --> 00:17:30.369 fascinating testament to human curiosity and 00:17:30.369 --> 00:17:32.609 our desperate need to find patterns and meaning, 00:17:32.730 --> 00:17:35.990 even when the data is incomplete. A massive thank 00:17:35.990 --> 00:17:38.069 you for joining us on this deep dive into the 00:17:38.069 --> 00:17:40.529 Pashupati seal. We've explored the incredible 00:17:40.529 --> 00:17:42.750 artistic detail of the Indus Valley civilization, 00:17:43.109 --> 00:17:44.910 the chaotic history of its modern discovery, 00:17:45.190 --> 00:17:48.170 and the passionate, sometimes completely contradictory 00:17:48.170 --> 00:17:50.349 nature of how we try to understand our past. 00:17:50.549 --> 00:17:53.210 But I want to leave you with one final, provocative 00:17:53.210 --> 00:17:55.650 thought to mull over on your own. Something to 00:17:55.650 --> 00:17:57.650 keep you awake tonight. We just spent all this 00:17:57.650 --> 00:18:00.230 time debating the faces, the horns, the posture, 00:18:00.329 --> 00:18:02.930 and the specific animals. We debated cow ears 00:18:02.930 --> 00:18:05.210 versus human faces and bull horns versus buffalo 00:18:05.210 --> 00:18:08.329 horns. But remember... Those seven indescript 00:18:08.329 --> 00:18:10.250 symbols squeezed at the very top of the seal, 00:18:10.369 --> 00:18:12.650 the ones the carver had to squish down just to 00:18:12.650 --> 00:18:15.930 fit them in, that entire language, that script, 00:18:16.089 --> 00:18:18.569 remains completely undeciphered to this very 00:18:18.569 --> 00:18:21.990 day. What if, after almost a century of experts 00:18:21.990 --> 00:18:24.470 projecting their own beliefs, their own complex 00:18:24.470 --> 00:18:26.829 theories, and their own cultural biases onto 00:18:26.829 --> 00:18:29.509 this tiny stone, the actual creator of the seal 00:18:29.509 --> 00:18:32.130 carved the definitive simple answer right there 00:18:32.130 --> 00:18:33.890 at the top, and we just don't know how to read 00:18:33.890 --> 00:18:35.920 it? Thank you for listening, and we'll catch 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:37.960 you on the next deep dive. Thanks, everyone.