WEBVTT

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Welcome to today's deep dive. We're really glad

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you are here with us today because, well, our

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mission today is to explore how a self -described

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late developer managed to break the centuries

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-old rules of his field to forge an entirely

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brand new national identity. Yeah, it is quite

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the story. It really is. We're looking at the

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life and the music of the English composer Ralph

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Vaughan Williams. And I have to tell you, the

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deeper you look into his letters, his biographies,

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and, you know, his actual music, the more you

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realize this is a life completely full of surprising

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contradictions. Right. Absolutely. I mean, we

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are talking about a man who was an agnostic,

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but who wrote some of the most famous church

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hymns of all time. A late bloomer who didn't

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really find his footing until he was, what, almost

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40 years old? I think 40, yeah. Right. Yet he

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composed right into his mid -80s. A man who,

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from the outside, seemed like the ultimate British

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traditionalist, but who actually led a radically

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unconventional domestic life behind closed doors.

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It really is a remarkable story. The reason this

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matters to you listening right now is that his

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journey is essentially a masterclass in how to

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synthesize diverse, unexpected influences. We

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are going to see how mixing seemingly opposite

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things like avant -garde French modernism with

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rural English folk songs can help anyone find

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their unique voice, no matter what their age

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is. It's just a brilliant reminder that you do

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not have to have your entire life and career

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figured out in your 20s. OK, let's unpack this

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because his upbringing. sets the stage for all

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these contradictions. He was born in 1872 in

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a place called Down Ampney in Gloucestershire.

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But his family tree is where it gets... Really

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wild. Oh, it's fascinating. Right. He was the

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great nephew of Charles Darwin, and he was also

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related to the famous Wedgwood pottery family.

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So he grows up in this very well -to -do, progressive

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-minded environment. But how did being related

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to someone as controversial as Darwin actually

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shape his worldview as a kid? Well, it gave him

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a remarkably open and inquisitive foundation.

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There is a great anecdote from his childhood

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that perfectly illustrates this. Oh, I love this

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one. Yeah, so young Vaughn Williams, growing

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up in a very traditional Victorian era, asked

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his mother about the clash between the Bible

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and his great uncle's highly controversial book

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on the origin of species. A heavy question for

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a kid. Exactly. But instead of shutting the conversation

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down, his mother simply replied, The Bible says

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that God made the world in six days. Great Uncle

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Charles thinks it took longer. But we need not

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worry about it, for it is equally wonderful either

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way. i love that it is such a calm measured way

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to handle what was at the time just a massive

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culture war what's fascinating here is how that

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exact parental attitude shaped his entire life

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That specific environment created a man who later

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described himself as a cheerful agnostic. The

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cheerful agnostic. Yeah, yet because he wasn't

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forced to reject religion outright, he never

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lost his love for the beauty of the authorized

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version of the Bible. He became this natural

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nonconformist who still held a deep, profound

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respect for the best parts of tradition. Which

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is such a tricky balance to strike. It really

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is. Yeah. But it allowed him to engage with religious

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music later in life, not from a place of strict

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dogma, but from a place of emotional and communal

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resonance. And he was going to need that kind

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of inner resilience, wasn't he? Because looking

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at his early musical career, it was definitely

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not a rocket ship to start him. Not at all. When

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he went to the Royal College of Music and later

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Cambridge, it seems like even his own family

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doubted he was talented enough to actually make

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a career out of composing. They basically let

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him go just because they felt it would break

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his heart to say no. Ouch. And once he gets there,

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he immediately clashes with his main composition

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teacher, Charles Villiers, Stanford. What was

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Stanford's problem with him? While Stanford was

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deeply conservative, he was a huge champion of

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composers like Brahms and Wagner, which meant

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he believed music should follow strict, established

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classical rules. Stanford kept trying to correct

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his students' music, particularly Vaughn Williams'

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love for what is called modal music. OK, for

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those of us who aren't classical musicians, what

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exactly is modal music and why did it upset his

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teacher so much? Think of it this way. Classical

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music usually relies on the standard major and

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minor scales, you know, your basic do -re -mi.

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Right. Modal music uses older, slightly different

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scales. If you listen to medieval church chants

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or very old traditional folk songs, they often

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sound a bit haunting, slightly unresolved or

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earthy. Okay, I can hear that in my head. That

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is the modal sound. Stanford thought it was incorrect

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and unrefined. He was trying to force his student

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into a very specific traditional German mold,

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which was the dominant style in Britain at the

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time. which takes a lot of guts for a young student.

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If he isn't getting the validation or the exact

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guidance he needs from his official teachers,

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how does he survive that environment? Does he

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just figure it out on his own? He looks laterally.

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He finds a fellow student named Gustav Holst.

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Oh, the planets guy. Exactly, who would go on

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to be a legendary composer himself, famous for

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writing the planets. They formed a bond that

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became absolutely crucial to this story. The

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Holst friendship. Looking at the historical records

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of their relationship, it's just amazing. Instead

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of just relying on the official curriculum, Vaughn

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Williams and Holst became each other's most brutal

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and most valued lifelong critics. They really

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do. They would play their unfinished compositions

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for each other. They discussed literally everything

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under the sun, from the lowest note of the double

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bassoon to the philosophy of Thomas Hardy's novel

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Jude the Obscure. I think the takeaway for you,

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the listener, is so powerful here. Success does

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not have to be solitary, and it doesn't have

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to be instantaneous. If you are struggling in

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your field and your mentors just don't get what

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you're trying to do, finding a trusted peer to

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critique your work, someone who is in the trenches

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with you, is completely invaluable. You learn

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the rules from your teachers, but you learn who

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you are from your peers. And for Vaughn Williams,

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figuring out who he was took a very long time.

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Which brings us to a really interesting crossroads.

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By the time he reaches his late 30s, he still

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hasn't truly found his own voice. In the classical

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music world, isn't your late 30s practically

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retirement age for a prodigy? For a prodigy,

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yes. Mozart was dead by 35. But Vaughn Williams

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was a late developer. He is writing music. He

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is working as a church organist, which he apparently

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disliked, even though it paid him 50 pounds a

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year. Hey, 50 pounds was 50 pounds back then.

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True. But he knows he's missing something. He

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desperately wants to escape this heavy Teutonic

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shadow that dominated British music. He wants

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English music to sound English. So what is his

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solution? Because he doesn't just sit in a room

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and try to invent a new style from scratch. He

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actually goes out into the English countryside,

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right? He does. In 1903, he starts physically

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going out to rural villages to collect vanishing

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English folk songs. He would find these elderly

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laborers, fishermen, and farmers and note down

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the melodies they sang, preserving them before

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that oral tradition died out entirely. And around

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the same time, from 1904 to 1906, he took on

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the massive job of being the music editor for

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a brand new church hymnal called the English

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Hymnal. Getting his hands dirty with the music

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of the people. And he loved that experience.

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He later said that two years of close association

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with some of the best and some of the worst hymn

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tunes in the world was a better musical education

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than any amount of sonatas and fugues. Yeah,

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a great quote. But even with all these folk songs

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and hymns, he still felt he lacked the technical

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chops to put it all together. So he makes a pretty

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radical move in the winter of 1907. He packs

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up and goes to Paris to study with the French

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composer Maurice Ravel. Why Ravel? He decides

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he needs to completely shake up his technique.

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Ravel was a modernist, much less dogmatic than

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the teachers back in London. This is a bold move

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because Ravel was known as a very demanding taskmaster

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who took very few pupils. Ravel was slightly

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younger than Vaughn Williams, too, which shows

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a lot of humility on Vaughn Williams's part.

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So how did these sessions actually go? What did

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a French modernist teach an English traditionalist?

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Well, they worked together four or five times

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a week for three months. And what Ravel really

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helped him do was strip away that heavy contrapuntal

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style. Contrapuntal. Let's translate that for

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a second. Sure. Contrapuntal music is when you

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have many different independent melodies playing

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at the exact same time. When done in the traditional

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German style, it creates this incredibly dense,

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overlapping wall of sound. Nice. It is heavy,

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it is thick, and it can be quite majestic. But

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Vaughn Williams felt it was suffocating his ideas.

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Ravel helped him clarify his textures. He taught

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him how to let the music breathe, how to use

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instruments to create clear, shimmering colors

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rather than a dense wall of sound. Did Ravel

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just turn him into a French composer then? Not

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at all. Ravel's quote about this experience is

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legendary. He said Vaughn Williams was my only

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pupil who does not write my music. Oh, that's

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high praise. Very high praise. Ravel didn't turn

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him into a French impressionist. Writing music

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that sounds... like a blurry, hazy watercolor

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painting, Ravel gave him the technical tools

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to express his own ideas. If we look at the music

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that comes right after this Paris trip, it is

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lighter, sharper, and distinctly his own. He

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finally had the ability to weave those earthy

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English folk songs and modal scales into massive

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orchestral works. And the result of this wild

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synthesis? Tudor church music? Rural English

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folk songs and French modernist lightness was

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his first massive wave of hits in 1910. Huge

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hits. He premieres the Fantasia on a theme by

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Thomas Tallis at Gloucester Cathedral and a sea

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symphony at the Leeds Festival. The critics were

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completely floored. One wrote about the Fantasia

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that you are never quite sure whether you are

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listening to something very, very old or something

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entirely new. Yeah. He had finally arrived. He

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was pushing 40 and he was officially a star in

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the British music scene. But just as he achieves

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this long -awaited success, world events completely

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derail his trajectory. In August 1914, the First

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World War breaks out. And this is something that

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really stopped me in my tracks when I was reading

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his biography. Vaughn Williams was approaching

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his 42nd birthday. He was an established, successful

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composer. He did not have to go. No, not at all.

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But he volunteers for military service as a private.

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He joins the Royal Army Medical Corps, serving

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as a stretcher bearer in an ambulance crew. It

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is hard to overstate how grueling that was. We

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were talking about the backbreaking labor of

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doing dangerous nighttime journeys through the

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mud, the rain, and the unimaginable carnage of

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France and later in Greece. Just horrific conditions.

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He was considerably older than almost all of

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his comrades. He eventually gets commissioned

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as a lieutenant in the Royal Artillery, and the

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continual deafening noise of the massive guns

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actually damages his hearing, which leads to

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severe deafness in his later years. And beyond

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the physical damage, the emotional toll must

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have been unbearable. Devastating. He lost so

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many close friends and comrades in the trenches.

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One of the most painful losses was a brilliantly

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talented young composer named George Butterworth,

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who was a dear friend. Oh, that's heartbreaking.

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That level of prolonged trauma fundamentally

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altered Vaughn Williams. During the war years,

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he stopped writing music entirely. He just couldn't

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do it. Here's where it gets really interesting,

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because when the war ends, he eventually returns

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to civilian life. He feels ready to compose a

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major new work again. And in 1922, he premieres

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his third symphony, which he titles A Pastoral

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Symphony. And the public reaction is completely

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baffling. They completely misunderstood it. They

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really did. Because of the title, Pastoral, and

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because of the generally quiet tone and slow

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tempos, English critics and audiences, many of

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whom had not fought on the front lines, thought

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it was just a nice, rustic idol. Like a picnic

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in the country. Exactly. They thought he was

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just painting a musical picture of cows grazing

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in a meadow. The fellow composer Peter Warlock

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famously sneered that the symphony sounded like

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a cow looking over a gate. They missed the point

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entirely. It wasn't about the peaceful English

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countryside at all, was it? Not even slightly.

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It was actually a war requiem. It was evoking

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the desolate, ruined landscapes of the French

00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:26.000
countryside that he had seen completely ravaged

00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.899
by artillery fire and death. Wow. The second

00:12:28.899 --> 00:12:31.860
movement features this haunting spectral last

00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:34.240
post played on a bugle remembering the fallen.

00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:37.580
And the finale includes a wordless female solo

00:12:37.580 --> 00:12:40.500
voice floating over the orchestra, which is meant

00:12:40.500 --> 00:12:43.320
to be a lament for the dead. It wasn't until

00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.659
well after the Second World War that audiences.

00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:49.000
broadly began to recognize the profound grief

00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:51.960
and the Requiem -like character hidden in that

00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:54.399
music. I want you, the listener, to really think

00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:56.679
about that for a second. Imagine pouring the

00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:58.940
deepest trauma of your life, the grief of losing

00:12:58.940 --> 00:13:01.399
your closest friends in the mud of a world war,

00:13:01.580 --> 00:13:04.539
into a piece of art or a major project, and then

00:13:04.539 --> 00:13:06.240
you present it to the world and people dismiss

00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:09.179
it as a cow looking over a gate. It's just crushing.

00:13:09.580 --> 00:13:12.340
Think about a time when your own public perception,

00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:15.059
how people viewed your work, your mood, your

00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:18.740
output, wildly missed the actual lived experience

00:13:18.740 --> 00:13:20.820
or the true intent behind what you were doing.

00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:24.399
It is a profoundly isolating experience to be

00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.000
misunderstood on that level. But the amazing

00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:29.419
thing about Vaughn Williams is that he didn't

00:13:29.419 --> 00:13:32.159
let those misinterpretations stop him. He kept

00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:34.340
moving forward and he kept pushing the boundaries

00:13:34.340 --> 00:13:36.980
of his field. he certainly pushed them with his

00:13:36.980 --> 00:13:39.960
middle symphonies by the 1930s he is seen as

00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:42.580
the grand old man of british music especially

00:13:42.580 --> 00:13:45.159
after his peers like holst and elgar pass away

00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:47.980
audiences expect a certain comforting nostalgic

00:13:47.980 --> 00:13:51.250
sound from him But his Fourth Symphony, completed

00:13:51.250 --> 00:13:54.529
in 1935, completely astonished listeners because

00:13:54.529 --> 00:13:57.210
it was so shockingly violent, angry, and dissonant.

00:13:57.330 --> 00:13:59.990
The Fourth Symphony was so discordant, especially

00:13:59.990 --> 00:14:01.789
coming during a time of rising international

00:14:01.789 --> 00:14:04.750
tension in the 1930s, that critics started throwing

00:14:04.750 --> 00:14:07.269
incredibly heavy political labels at it. One

00:14:07.269 --> 00:14:09.389
critic called it the Romantic, while another

00:14:09.389 --> 00:14:11.529
actually used the word fascist to describe his

00:14:11.529 --> 00:14:14.059
brutal energy. Yeah, the press went wild. And

00:14:14.059 --> 00:14:16.039
to be clear to you listening, those were just

00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:18.740
the chaotic labels of the 1930s press trying

00:14:18.740 --> 00:14:21.320
to make sense of the noise. We aren't endorsing

00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:23.639
any of those viewpoints. Vaughn Williams himself

00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.860
absolutely rejected all of it. He firmly denied

00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:29.419
that the symphony had any political program whatsoever.

00:14:29.659 --> 00:14:33.100
He insisted it was just absolute music. He refused

00:14:33.100 --> 00:14:35.039
to let critics dictate what his music meant.

00:14:35.139 --> 00:14:37.480
And then he pivots again, completely defying

00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:40.279
expectations. During the absolute height of the

00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:42.320
Second World War, when everyone expects him to

00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:45.370
write something military, He writes the Fifth

00:14:45.370 --> 00:14:48.049
Symphony. And it's so different. It is incredibly

00:14:48.049 --> 00:14:52.039
serene, luminous. And consoling. It was exactly

00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:54.700
what the frightened, exhausted British public

00:14:54.700 --> 00:14:58.080
needed during all -out war in the Blitz. One

00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.200
critic wrote that it contained the most benedictory

00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.259
and consoling music of our time. And then just

00:15:03.259 --> 00:15:05.759
when you think he's settled into being a benign,

00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:08.639
tranquil old man, the war ends, the Cold War

00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:11.000
begins, and he drops the Sixth Symphony in 1948.

00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:14.299
This piece opens with what critics called a primal

00:15:14.299 --> 00:15:17.120
scream of aggression and impending chaos. It's

00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:18.919
intense. But the craziest part is the ending.

00:15:19.309 --> 00:15:22.269
The final movement is 10 to 12 minutes long,

00:15:22.429 --> 00:15:25.409
and it is played entirely pianissimo, meaning

00:15:25.409 --> 00:15:28.769
super, super quiet. It never rises above a whisper.

00:15:29.370 --> 00:15:31.450
Listeners and critics were utterly convinced

00:15:31.450 --> 00:15:34.789
it was a depiction of a nuclear -scorched wasteland,

00:15:34.889 --> 00:15:38.100
a dead planet after an atomic bomb. If we connect

00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:40.279
this to the bigger picture, you see a master

00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:43.740
artist simply refusing to be boxed in by anyone's

00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:47.080
expectations. People constantly push these programmatic

00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:49.279
theories onto his symphonies, saying they were

00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:53.179
about fascism or the Blitz or nuclear war. And

00:15:53.179 --> 00:15:55.120
Vaughn Williams was totally dismissive of it.

00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.299
He really was. He responded to the theories about

00:15:57.299 --> 00:15:59.399
the Sixth Symphony by saying, it never seems

00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:01.259
to occur to people that a man might just want

00:16:01.259 --> 00:16:03.610
to write a piece of music. I love that bluntness.

00:16:03.769 --> 00:16:06.370
But behind all these sonic extremes and public

00:16:06.370 --> 00:16:09.129
debates, there was a radical secret life happening

00:16:09.129 --> 00:16:11.450
that I think is just as surprising as his music

00:16:11.450 --> 00:16:14.529
because as traditional as he seemed in his tweeds

00:16:14.529 --> 00:16:16.730
and flat caps, his personal life in his later

00:16:16.730 --> 00:16:19.779
years was deeply unconventional. It was. He had

00:16:19.779 --> 00:16:22.019
been devotedly married to his wife Adeline since

00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:25.759
1897. But as they grew older, Adeline became

00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.200
increasingly immobilized by severe arthritis.

00:16:28.779 --> 00:16:30.679
It got to the point where they had to move out

00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:32.879
of London to a house in Dorking just to manage

00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:35.860
her care. He was fiercely devoted to her, and

00:16:35.860 --> 00:16:37.700
his dedication to making sure she was comfortable

00:16:37.700 --> 00:16:41.539
never faltered. But then in 1938, when he is

00:16:41.539 --> 00:16:44.720
66 years old, he meets a 27 -year -old poet named

00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:47.450
Ursula Wood. She was married to an army officer,

00:16:47.590 --> 00:16:49.769
and she approached the composer with a scenario

00:16:49.769 --> 00:16:52.330
for a ballet. Despite the fact that they were

00:16:52.330 --> 00:16:54.690
both married, and despite a nearly 40 -year age

00:16:54.690 --> 00:16:57.870
gap, they fell in love almost immediately. And

00:16:57.870 --> 00:16:59.750
they maintained a secret love affair for more

00:16:59.750 --> 00:17:02.820
than a decade. She essentially became his muse,

00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:05.440
his helper, and his companion whenever he traveled

00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.500
into London. And here's where the story shifts

00:17:07.500 --> 00:17:09.559
from a conventional secret affair into something

00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:13.660
incredibly unique and complex. In 1942, Ursula's

00:17:13.660 --> 00:17:16.079
husband died suddenly of heart failure. And it

00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:18.640
was Adeline, Vaughn Williams' wife, who is largely

00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.299
housebound, who invited the newly widowed Ursula

00:17:21.299 --> 00:17:23.140
to come and stay with them at their home in Dorking.

00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:25.359
The arrangement they came to is honestly the

00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:27.380
most surprising detail in his entire biography.

00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:30.480
The relations between the two women were apparently

00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:34.400
extremely warm. Adeline essentially adopted Ursula

00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:36.960
in the most amicable way. It's really quite beautiful.

00:17:37.339 --> 00:17:39.920
During the heavy air raids of World War II, when

00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:42.299
London and the surrounding areas were being bombed,

00:17:42.380 --> 00:17:44.539
things were so dangerous that the three of them

00:17:44.539 --> 00:17:46.900
actually slept in the same room in adjacent beds,

00:17:47.140 --> 00:17:49.779
holding hands for comfort in the dark while the

00:17:49.779 --> 00:17:53.380
sirens blared. It highlights a capacity for profound

00:17:53.380 --> 00:17:55.519
emotional generosity from all three of them.

00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:58.539
It wasn't a scandal. It was a chosen family built

00:17:58.539 --> 00:18:01.839
on deep affection. Ursula later helped Vaughn

00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:04.940
Williams care for the ailing Adeline until Adeline

00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:08.519
passed away in 1951 at the age of 80. Wow. Two

00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:10.359
years later, Vaughn Williams and Ursula were

00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:12.859
married. She remained fiercely protective of

00:18:12.859 --> 00:18:15.160
his legacy, and she openly admitted later in

00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:17.099
life that while she had been jealous of Adeline

00:18:17.099 --> 00:18:19.980
early on, Adeline's place in his life and affections

00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:22.859
was completely unchallengeable. It is a deeply

00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:26.000
human situation that completely defies the stiff

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:28.539
upper lip stereotype of mid -century England.

00:18:28.779 --> 00:18:31.279
So what does this all mean? When we look back

00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:33.480
at the legacy of Ralph Vaughn Williams, we see

00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:35.839
a man who fundamentally changed the landscape

00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:38.240
of his culture without ever losing his humility.

00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.099
He actually refused a knighthood, preferring

00:18:41.099 --> 00:18:43.480
to just be known as Dr. Vaughn Williams. Yeah,

00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:45.380
he never cared for the fancy titles. He never

00:18:45.380 --> 00:18:48.279
stopped exploring either. He composed right up

00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:50.819
to the morning he died in 1958 at the age of

00:18:50.819 --> 00:18:54.240
85. He left a legacy that completely emancipated

00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:57.039
English music from its German constraints, allowing

00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:59.759
the composers of succeeding generations to write

00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:02.920
freely in their own native language. And he did

00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:05.519
it by trusting his own vision, even when it wasn't

00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.700
popular. This raises an important question, and

00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:10.240
it brings us to a final thought I want to leave

00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:12.769
with the listener today. It concerns an opera

00:19:12.769 --> 00:19:15.369
he wrote called The Pilgrim's Progress. Vaughn

00:19:15.369 --> 00:19:17.329
Williams had worked on this piece off and on

00:19:17.329 --> 00:19:20.470
for 45 years. It was a massive labor of love.

00:19:20.589 --> 00:19:23.049
45 years. That is literally half a lifetime.

00:19:23.529 --> 00:19:26.269
Exactly. And when it finally premiered at Covent

00:19:26.269 --> 00:19:30.519
Garden in 1951. The public and the critics didn't

00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:32.079
really like it. It wasn't a hit at all. They

00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:34.420
didn't understand it because it lacked traditional

00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:37.460
operatic tropes. There were no conventional heroines

00:19:37.460 --> 00:19:41.019
and there were no swooning love duets. It was

00:19:41.019 --> 00:19:44.799
a deeply personal spiritual morality play. So

00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.880
how did he react to that? When he talked to his

00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:49.000
wife about the bad reviews, his response was

00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.839
simply, they don't like it, they won't like it,

00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:52.920
they don't want an opera with no heroine and

00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.259
no love duets, and I don't care, it's what I

00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:57.299
meant, and there it is. It's what I meant, and

00:19:57.299 --> 00:19:59.339
there it is. So I want to ask you, the listener,

00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.200
at what point in your own life, in your career,

00:20:02.299 --> 00:20:05.720
or in your creative journey, do you stop caring

00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:08.880
about public reception? When do you finally look

00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.079
at the work you spent your life doing, shrug

00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:12.680
off the critics, and say, it's what I meant,

00:20:12.779 --> 00:20:13.279
and there it is?
