WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.540 So, uh, imagine for a second that you are stranded. 00:00:03.899 --> 00:00:07.379 Like... deep in a punishing completely unforgiving 00:00:07.379 --> 00:00:10.060 jungle right a total nightmare scenario exactly 00:00:10.060 --> 00:00:12.359 and you are starving and i don't mean you know 00:00:12.359 --> 00:00:13.800 not just the kind of starving where you wanted 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:16.199 to skip a meeting to grab lunch i mean genuinely 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:18.839 physically depleting to the point where your 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:21.579 body is literally consuming its own muscle mass 00:00:21.579 --> 00:00:24.219 just absolute desperation yeah you're so desperate 00:00:24.219 --> 00:00:27.280 for sustenance that you resort to foraging for 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:31.039 ferns chewing on bark and eventually uh you actually 00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:33.659 find yourself choking down completely rotten 00:00:33.659 --> 00:00:36.520 fish just to keep your heart beating. It sounds 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.170 horrifying, right? But what if I told you that 00:00:39.170 --> 00:00:41.929 this exact brutal crucible of human suffering 00:00:41.929 --> 00:00:45.229 is directly responsible for the creation of one 00:00:45.229 --> 00:00:48.390 of the most defining genre -shifting video games 00:00:48.390 --> 00:00:50.369 of an entire generation? It's a crazy connection. 00:00:50.670 --> 00:00:52.929 It really is. Welcome to the Deep Dive. We are 00:00:52.929 --> 00:00:55.149 thrilled to have you joining us today as we explore 00:00:55.149 --> 00:00:57.810 the life of Dean Hall, who the gaming community 00:00:57.810 --> 00:01:00.670 mostly knows as Rocket. The creator of DayZ. 00:01:01.009 --> 00:01:03.869 That's the one. He's the New Zealand game designer 00:01:03.869 --> 00:01:07.599 who basically birthed an entire genre. And our 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:10.040 mission today isn't just to read off his resume. 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:13.120 We are going to look at how intense real -world 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:17.159 physical extremes and a pretty massive rebellious 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:20.569 streak fundamentally disrupted a billion -dollar 00:01:20.569 --> 00:01:23.189 entertainment industry. It is such a fascinating 00:01:23.189 --> 00:01:25.709 trajectory. When you look at his life, I mean, 00:01:25.730 --> 00:01:29.049 the analytical takeaway here is how deeply personal 00:01:29.049 --> 00:01:33.189 and profoundly painful experiences can completely 00:01:33.189 --> 00:01:36.090 rewire the way we interact with digital media. 00:01:36.250 --> 00:01:39.390 You have this constant duality with Hall, the 00:01:39.390 --> 00:01:41.849 mud -soaked survivalist on one hand and the high 00:01:41.849 --> 00:01:44.769 -tech meticulous coder on the other. It is exactly 00:01:44.769 --> 00:01:47.189 what makes his impact so unique because he brought 00:01:47.189 --> 00:01:49.950 the raw... trauma of the physical world directly 00:01:49.950 --> 00:01:52.049 into the safety of our living rooms. OK, let's 00:01:52.049 --> 00:01:53.590 unpack this because we have to start at the beginning. 00:01:53.769 --> 00:01:56.329 Let's look at his early days growing up in Oamaru, 00:01:56.450 --> 00:01:58.670 New Zealand. Right. Small town life. Yeah. Attending 00:01:58.670 --> 00:02:01.250 Waitaki Boys High School. Now, you might picture 00:02:01.250 --> 00:02:04.030 this quiet, remote upbringing, but there was 00:02:04.030 --> 00:02:06.989 a massive concentration of future gaming talent 00:02:06.989 --> 00:02:09.469 brewing right there at a single table. That's 00:02:09.469 --> 00:02:11.789 almost unbelievable. Hall spent his time playing 00:02:11.789 --> 00:02:14.090 tabletop role playing games with another kid 00:02:14.090 --> 00:02:16.800 named Chris Butcher. And if you play video games, 00:02:16.939 --> 00:02:19.900 that name is huge. Oh, absolutely. Butcher later 00:02:19.900 --> 00:02:23.039 became the technical director at Bungie. He worked 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:26.259 on absolute juggernauts like Halo and Destiny. 00:02:26.500 --> 00:02:29.039 It is a remarkable coincidence. He was essentially 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:32.539 rolling dice and playing RPGs with the guy who 00:02:32.539 --> 00:02:34.719 would go on to build the technical architecture 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:38.120 for Halo. Talk about a crazy butterfly effect 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:41.460 in a small New Zealand town. But it also speaks 00:02:41.460 --> 00:02:43.759 to the environment of creative problem solving 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:46.939 they were immersed in. For Hall, his technical 00:02:46.939 --> 00:02:49.340 journey didn't just stay on the tabletop. His 00:02:49.340 --> 00:02:51.560 foundational coding skills actually started on 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:54.030 an Amiga personal computer. His parents bought 00:02:54.030 --> 00:02:55.729 that for him, right? Yeah, when he was just a 00:02:55.729 --> 00:02:58.789 kid. And the Amiga in the late 80s and early 00:02:58.789 --> 00:03:01.030 90s, it was essentially a dream machine for a 00:03:01.030 --> 00:03:03.990 kid wanting to tinker with digital worlds. I 00:03:03.990 --> 00:03:05.750 always hear developers of a certain generation 00:03:05.750 --> 00:03:08.849 rave about the Amiga. Because unlike standard 00:03:08.849 --> 00:03:11.930 PCs of the era, it had incredible graphics and 00:03:11.930 --> 00:03:14.430 sound capabilities right out of the box. It was 00:03:14.430 --> 00:03:17.289 a creative sandbox. It allowed someone like Hall, 00:03:17.490 --> 00:03:20.090 at a very young age, to get hands -on with programming. 00:03:20.539 --> 00:03:22.919 to understand the architecture of digital spaces. 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:26.020 He could actually see his ideas come to life 00:03:26.020 --> 00:03:28.900 on a screen without needing a massive studio 00:03:28.900 --> 00:03:31.939 backing him. It planted that seed early on. Exactly. 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:33.960 He realized he could build his own worlds. But 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:36.419 he didn't just graduate and jump straight into 00:03:36.419 --> 00:03:39.000 indie game development. This is where his career 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:41.520 trajectory takes a massive, really surprising 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:44.020 pivot. He goes the complete opposite direction. 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:46.379 He does. Instead of heading off to a tech hub 00:03:46.379 --> 00:03:49.500 or a major studio, Hall joins the Royal New Zealand 00:03:49.500 --> 00:03:51.620 Air Force. Right. He serves as a commissioned 00:03:51.620 --> 00:03:54.560 officer for five years. And during that time, 00:03:54.580 --> 00:03:56.240 he even completes his degree at the University 00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:59.300 of Otago under a defense scholarship. So you 00:03:59.300 --> 00:04:02.539 have this creative world building kid who suddenly 00:04:02.539 --> 00:04:05.520 transitions into a highly disciplined, rigid 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:08.479 military structure. And that tension, that push 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:11.680 and pull between rigid structure and creative 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:14.419 freedom that becomes the defining theme of his 00:04:14.419 --> 00:04:17.420 entire life. You see a deeply restless career 00:04:17.420 --> 00:04:20.199 pattern emerge from here on out. Because he doesn't 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:22.600 stay in the Air Force. No. After his five years, 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:25.019 he leaves the military and finally enters the 00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:27.600 gaming industry. He gets a job as a producer 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:29.740 at Sight Interactive in Wellington. This is around 00:04:29.740 --> 00:04:33.660 2008. And he's working on a licensed title, Speed 00:04:33.660 --> 00:04:37.300 Racer, the video game. Which is such massive 00:04:37.300 --> 00:04:39.500 whiplash. Oh, totally. You go from being a commission 00:04:39.500 --> 00:04:42.420 officer in the Air Force to producing a colorful 00:04:42.420 --> 00:04:45.639 high -speed arcade racing game tied to a family 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:47.980 movie. It's jarring. But it seems the gaming 00:04:47.980 --> 00:04:49.899 industry at that moment just wasn't enough to 00:04:49.899 --> 00:04:52.259 hold him. Or maybe he missed the physical demands 00:04:52.259 --> 00:04:54.579 and the high stakes of the military. Because 00:04:54.579 --> 00:04:56.899 very briefly, after the Speed Racer project in 00:04:56.899 --> 00:04:59.939 2009, he feels the pullback to the armed forces. 00:05:00.019 --> 00:05:03.279 He re -enlists. He re -enlists, this time in 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:05.769 the New Zealand Army. as a commissioned officer 00:05:05.769 --> 00:05:08.750 in the Royal New Zealand Corps of Signals. And 00:05:08.750 --> 00:05:11.649 if we connect this to the bigger picture, this 00:05:11.649 --> 00:05:14.189 constant ping -ponging between the strict life 00:05:14.189 --> 00:05:16.250 -and -death stakes of military service and the 00:05:16.250 --> 00:05:19.029 imaginative world of game development perfectly 00:05:19.029 --> 00:05:21.689 set the stage for his masterpiece. Because he 00:05:21.689 --> 00:05:24.170 was gathering a very specific set of skills. 00:05:24.470 --> 00:05:26.949 Exactly. Skills needed to build something no 00:05:26.949 --> 00:05:29.100 one else had even thought of yet. And that brings 00:05:29.100 --> 00:05:31.680 us back to that terrifying jungle scenario I 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:33.480 asked you to imagine at the start of our deep 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:35.519 dive. Here's where it gets really interesting. 00:05:35.980 --> 00:05:39.779 In 2009, while serving in the Army, Hall is posted 00:05:39.779 --> 00:05:42.259 on an exchange program with the Singapore Armed 00:05:42.259 --> 00:05:44.660 Forces. Right. And as part of this exchange, 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.220 he is sent to complete a survival training course 00:05:47.220 --> 00:05:49.949 in Brunei. And this was not just a weekend camping 00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:52.970 trip with a safety net. Not even close. We really 00:05:52.970 --> 00:05:55.610 need to emphasize the grueling nature of this 00:05:55.610 --> 00:05:58.029 deployment. This wasn't a simulated exercise 00:05:58.029 --> 00:06:00.610 where a helicopter comes to grab you the second 00:06:00.610 --> 00:06:02.589 you feel a little uncomfortable. No, the stakes 00:06:02.589 --> 00:06:05.050 were very real. Paul was not used to the local 00:06:05.050 --> 00:06:07.129 diet during his deployment. And as the training 00:06:07.129 --> 00:06:09.189 progressed, that became a massive liability. 00:06:09.949 --> 00:06:12.009 During the survival component of the training, 00:06:12.209 --> 00:06:15.279 he completely ran out of food. He was pushed 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:17.540 to the absolute brink of human endurance. To 00:06:17.540 --> 00:06:19.879 the point where he's eating raw ferns. Trying 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:22.740 to, anyway. And eventually resorting to rotten 00:06:22.740 --> 00:06:26.680 fish. The physical toll was devastating. By the 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:30.000 time the training concluded, Hall had lost 25 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.160 kilograms. That is roughly 55 pounds of body 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.370 mass. Just gone. In a matter of weeks. Furthermore, 00:06:36.589 --> 00:06:38.769 he suffered injuries during this time that were 00:06:38.769 --> 00:06:41.050 so severe they literally required surgery to 00:06:41.050 --> 00:06:43.709 repair once he was finally out. That is horrifying. 00:06:44.209 --> 00:06:46.589 I can't even fathom losing that much weight that 00:06:46.589 --> 00:06:48.730 quickly while trying to survive in a jungle. 00:06:48.889 --> 00:06:51.509 Your body just starts eating itself. It's a level 00:06:51.509 --> 00:06:53.430 of physical depletion most of us will thankfully 00:06:53.430 --> 00:06:56.569 never experience. But the core takeaway here 00:06:56.569 --> 00:06:59.329 isn't just the bodily harm. It's the psychological 00:06:59.329 --> 00:07:01.730 insight that was born from it. His perspective 00:07:01.730 --> 00:07:04.610 completely changed. This was Hall's profound 00:07:04.610 --> 00:07:07.990 aha moment. While starving in the jungle, he 00:07:07.990 --> 00:07:09.970 realized that the true challenge of survival 00:07:09.970 --> 00:07:12.889 wasn't merely a physical test of enduring hunger 00:07:12.889 --> 00:07:15.689 or pain. It was primarily an emotional test. 00:07:15.930 --> 00:07:18.129 Because the mind breaks before the body does. 00:07:18.290 --> 00:07:21.009 Exactly. It was about desperation. paranoia, 00:07:21.009 --> 00:07:23.810 decision making under severe duress, and the 00:07:23.810 --> 00:07:26.589 raw emotional reactions a human being experiences 00:07:26.589 --> 00:07:29.269 when they are pushed to the absolute edge. Right. 00:07:29.449 --> 00:07:31.569 Because when you are starving, your brain doesn't 00:07:31.569 --> 00:07:33.750 work the same way. The person next to you isn't 00:07:33.750 --> 00:07:35.589 just a fellow soldier anymore. There might be 00:07:35.589 --> 00:07:37.930 competition for the last piece of food. You lose 00:07:37.930 --> 00:07:41.069 all societal norms. He realized that existing 00:07:41.069 --> 00:07:43.470 military training didn't actually capture that 00:07:43.470 --> 00:07:46.649 specific unhinged panic. So he wanted to use 00:07:46.649 --> 00:07:49.430 video games as a method to train soldiers for 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:51.839 these exact unpredictable emotional reactions 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:55.139 to severe stress. It's brilliant, really. You 00:07:55.139 --> 00:07:57.680 use the immersive power of a video game to simulate 00:07:57.680 --> 00:07:59.660 the emotional weight of a life or death survival 00:07:59.660 --> 00:08:03.240 situation. A virtual pressure cooker? Yeah. So 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:05.680 Hall takes this concept, which was literally 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.060 born in the mud of Brunei, and he pitches this 00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:11.699 emotional survival simulator directly to the 00:08:11.699 --> 00:08:14.100 leadership within the New Zealand Army as a training 00:08:14.100 --> 00:08:17.860 tool. And what happens? Irony of ironies. The 00:08:17.860 --> 00:08:21.339 army completely rejected the pitch. They showed 00:08:21.339 --> 00:08:24.120 zero interest. None. And you have to wonder why 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:26.319 they rejected it. From an analytical standpoint, 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:29.259 traditional military doctrine is built on structure, 00:08:29.399 --> 00:08:32.750 following orders, maintaining discipline. Hall 00:08:32.750 --> 00:08:35.269 was pitching a simulator about what happens when 00:08:35.269 --> 00:08:37.450 discipline completely breaks down. He was pitching 00:08:37.450 --> 00:08:40.429 chaos. Yes, a simulation of desperation and chaos. 00:08:40.809 --> 00:08:43.669 It was probably just too unstructured and emotionally 00:08:43.669 --> 00:08:45.929 chaotic for a rigid military training program 00:08:45.929 --> 00:08:49.110 to adopt at that time. So the Army says no, but 00:08:49.110 --> 00:08:50.669 he doesn't just give up and go back to his day 00:08:50.669 --> 00:08:52.929 job. What's fascinating here is his reaction 00:08:52.929 --> 00:08:55.230 to that rejection. A lot of people would have 00:08:55.230 --> 00:08:57.049 just shelved the idea, maybe considered it a 00:08:57.049 --> 00:08:59.289 failed experiment. But Hall had just survived 00:08:59.289 --> 00:09:02.110 starvation in Brunei. A bureaucratic no wasn't 00:09:02.110 --> 00:09:03.990 going to stop him. Not a chance. Instead of giving 00:09:03.990 --> 00:09:06.649 up on the simulation, he decided to take this 00:09:06.649 --> 00:09:09.730 hyper -realistic, emotionally taxing survival 00:09:09.730 --> 00:09:13.129 model, add zombies to it, and release it directly 00:09:13.129 --> 00:09:15.250 to the public. And that decision birthed the 00:09:15.250 --> 00:09:17.679 mod that changed everything. Hall eventually 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:20.120 took a contract job at Bohemia Interactive to 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:22.279 work as a playable content designer on their 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:25.720 military simulator game, Arma 3. Right. But while 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:28.120 he was there, he started working on a side project 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:32.220 using the previous game's engine, Arma 2. This 00:09:32.220 --> 00:09:36.320 side project was Daisy. Now, for anyone who might 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:39.480 not be deep into PC gaming terminology, What 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:42.340 exactly do we mean when we say he built a mod? 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:45.379 So a mod, which is short for modification, is 00:09:45.379 --> 00:09:47.940 when a developer or a fan essentially hacks into 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:50.080 the existing code of an already released game 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:52.740 to change the rules, the graphics, or the mechanics. 00:09:52.940 --> 00:09:55.600 You're remixing the game. Exactly. Hall took 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:58.200 the very dry, realistic military shooting mechanics 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:00.580 of Arma 2, stripped out all the standard military 00:10:00.580 --> 00:10:03.139 objectives, dropped players into a massive 2 00:10:03.139 --> 00:10:05.820 .25 square kilometer map, and added zombies. 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:07.840 But the zombies weren't even the scariest part. 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:10.659 Not at all. The scariest part was the other players. 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:13.139 I want you to imagine the gaming landscape at 00:10:13.139 --> 00:10:16.399 that time. Most games were highly polished power 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:18.960 fantasies. They held your hand, they gave you 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:21.919 clear objectives, and if you died, you just respawned 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:23.919 at a checkpoint five seconds earlier with all 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:26.539 your gear. There was no real consequence. None. 00:10:27.179 --> 00:10:30.820 Then along comes Hall's Day Z mod. It was raw. 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:33.679 It was punishing. He introduced something called 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:36.929 permadeath. If your character died, you lost 00:10:36.929 --> 00:10:39.389 absolutely everything you had gathered over hours 00:10:39.389 --> 00:10:41.929 or days of playing. Every single item. Gone. 00:10:42.169 --> 00:10:44.250 You had to worry about starvation, blood loss, 00:10:44.289 --> 00:10:47.509 and disease. It was the exact emotional simulation 00:10:47.509 --> 00:10:49.990 he had pitched to the army repackaged for gamers. 00:10:50.289 --> 00:10:53.210 It completely rewired player psychology. Gaming 00:10:53.210 --> 00:10:55.549 moved from a power fantasy to a vulnerability 00:10:55.549 --> 00:10:57.929 simulator. You could be walking through the woods 00:10:57.929 --> 00:11:00.279 for three hours. finally find a can of beans, 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:02.559 accidentally break your leg falling off a small 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:04.860 ledge, and have to beg a passing player for a 00:11:04.860 --> 00:11:07.000 bandage. And that passing player might help you, 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:08.580 or they might just shoot you to take your beans. 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:12.080 The paranoia was intensely real. Hall had successfully 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:14.940 digitized the desperation he felt in Brunei. 00:11:15.179 --> 00:11:17.960 And the cultural impact was immediate and massive. 00:11:18.379 --> 00:11:22.860 Released in February 2012 as a mod, it just skyrocketed 00:11:22.860 --> 00:11:25.840 to mainstream success. People were buying Arma 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.899 2 solely to play Hall's DayZ mod. It was driving 00:11:28.899 --> 00:11:32.019 the sales of the base game. It was. It was even 00:11:32.019 --> 00:11:34.419 nominated for the Online Innovation Award at 00:11:34.419 --> 00:11:38.200 the 2012 GDC Online Awards. This overwhelming 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:42.159 grassroots success effectively forced Bohemia 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:56.629 Interactive's hand. He went from a rejected military 00:11:56.629 --> 00:11:59.009 pitch to leading the development of a game that 00:11:59.009 --> 00:12:01.190 had millions of players obsessed with the sheer 00:12:01.190 --> 00:12:04.190 brutality of his design. It's an incredible vindication 00:12:04.190 --> 00:12:06.230 of his idea. But Hall wasn't just disrupting 00:12:06.230 --> 00:12:08.330 game mechanics. He was actively challenging the 00:12:08.330 --> 00:12:10.549 business status quo of the gaming industry at 00:12:10.549 --> 00:12:13.649 the time. Around 2012, he was very outspoken. 00:12:13.710 --> 00:12:15.870 He publicly stated that the seventh generation 00:12:15.870 --> 00:12:18.309 of consoles were at the end of their lives. He 00:12:18.309 --> 00:12:20.929 was calling out the hardware stagnation. Yes. 00:12:21.149 --> 00:12:24.210 He argued that this hardware stagnation had resulted 00:12:24.210 --> 00:12:27.169 in the PC platform providing the actual innovative 00:12:27.169 --> 00:12:30.730 games for the market. Because PC developers could 00:12:30.730 --> 00:12:33.490 push updates instantly and experiment with crazy 00:12:33.490 --> 00:12:37.129 ideas like DayZ without going through slow console 00:12:37.129 --> 00:12:40.090 approval processes. And his critiques didn't 00:12:40.090 --> 00:12:42.730 stop at hardware. He was equally critical of 00:12:42.730 --> 00:12:45.509 the traditional publishing model. He turned down 00:12:45.509 --> 00:12:48.029 multiple offers from major publishers who wanted 00:12:48.029 --> 00:12:51.490 to take control of DayZ. many offers. He bluntly 00:12:51.490 --> 00:12:53.970 questioned what actual value publishers provide 00:12:53.970 --> 00:12:56.350 in a modern context. Now, I have to play devil's 00:12:56.350 --> 00:12:58.129 advocate here for a second. Isn't that incredibly 00:12:58.129 --> 00:13:00.809 risky? Publishers provide quality assurance, 00:13:01.129 --> 00:13:04.049 massive marketing budgets, funding. Was he just 00:13:04.049 --> 00:13:06.950 being arrogant or did he actually have a viable 00:13:06.950 --> 00:13:08.990 alternative strategy? Why would he turn down 00:13:08.990 --> 00:13:11.110 guaranteed money? It's a very fair question. 00:13:11.250 --> 00:13:13.250 And it looks like arrogance if you don't understand 00:13:13.250 --> 00:13:15.470 his underlying philosophy. Halls wasn't being 00:13:15.470 --> 00:13:18.309 reckless. He was being fiercely protective. Protective 00:13:18.309 --> 00:13:21.360 of the vision. Exactly. He saw a direct -to -consumer 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:24.600 value where the community and the creator interact 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:28.480 without a corporate middleman. If a major publisher 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.320 had taken over DayZ, their first instinct would 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:33.559 likely have been to make it easier. Oh, for sure. 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:35.440 Make it more accessible. They would have wanted 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:38.440 to remove permadeath to appeal to a broader audience. 00:13:38.860 --> 00:13:41.179 They would have watered down the harshness of 00:13:41.179 --> 00:13:43.600 his vision to guarantee a safe return on their 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.620 investment. By rejecting them, he ensured the 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:49.379 game remained authentic and uncompromised. He 00:13:49.379 --> 00:13:51.519 wanted things authentic and challenging, and 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:54.019 that desire for extreme challenges wasn't confined 00:13:54.019 --> 00:13:56.960 to digital worlds or industry debates. Hall's 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:59.100 pursuit of extremes spilled right back out into 00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:01.139 the real world. He's not just a guy behind a 00:14:01.139 --> 00:14:03.559 keyboard. No, we're talking about actual, literal 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:06.320 mountains. Hall is an accomplished mountaineer. 00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:08.539 He had already climbed Mount Cook in New Zealand, 00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:12.549 but he didn't stop there. in may 2013 right as 00:14:12.549 --> 00:14:14.850 daisy was cementing its legacy and completely 00:14:14.850 --> 00:14:17.909 consuming his professional life he took a sabbatical 00:14:17.909 --> 00:14:20.710 and successfully summited mount everest becoming 00:14:20.710 --> 00:14:23.710 the 42nd new zealander to ever achieve that feat 00:14:23.710 --> 00:14:25.870 which is mind -blowing it's a perfect synthesis 00:14:25.870 --> 00:14:29.230 of his passions really hall explicitly states 00:14:29.230 --> 00:14:31.669 that his mountaineering experiences form a huge 00:14:31.669 --> 00:14:34.250 part of the inspiration for his game design work 00:14:34.250 --> 00:14:36.730 when you really break it down the psychology 00:14:36.730 --> 00:14:39.350 of climbing everest and the psychology of playing 00:14:39.350 --> 00:14:42.429 a game like DayZ are incredibly similar. High 00:14:42.429 --> 00:14:45.809 stakes, low margin for error. Both require intense 00:14:45.809 --> 00:14:49.230 preparation. Both demand a grueling commitment 00:14:49.230 --> 00:14:52.419 to a singular task. And most importantly, Both 00:14:52.419 --> 00:14:55.340 require the psychological fortitude to face harsh, 00:14:55.539 --> 00:14:58.000 unforgiving environments where a single mistake, 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.759 a misstep on a ridge, or trusting the wrong person 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:03.059 in a game can cost you absolutely everything. 00:15:03.379 --> 00:15:05.340 The mechanics of survival on Everest are the 00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:07.620 exact same mechanics of survival in his digital 00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:09.860 worlds. The mountain does not care about you, 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:11.799 and neither does the code. So what does this 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:14.000 all mean? You have a guy who has survived starvation 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:16.480 in the jungle, disrupted the multi -billion dollar 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.220 game industry, challenged the necessity of publishers, 00:15:19.500 --> 00:15:22.330 and climbed the highest mountain on Earth. What 00:15:22.330 --> 00:15:24.389 do you do for an encore? You start your own company. 00:15:24.690 --> 00:15:27.649 Naturally. In November 2014, Hall decided to 00:15:27.649 --> 00:15:30.090 leave Bohemia Interactive. He struck out on his 00:15:30.090 --> 00:15:31.970 own, returning to his roots in New Zealand to 00:15:31.970 --> 00:15:34.750 found his very own game studio, Rocketworks. 00:15:35.090 --> 00:15:37.590 Moving from a project lead under another company 00:15:37.590 --> 00:15:40.409 to the head of his own studio allowed him to 00:15:40.409 --> 00:15:43.190 finally build a portfolio of profound ambition 00:15:43.190 --> 00:15:45.769 without anyone looking over his shoulder. Total 00:15:45.769 --> 00:15:48.960 creative control. And Rocketworks has an eclectic, 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.039 fascinating history. They didn't just stick to 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:54.700 zombies. They announced a debut title called 00:15:54.700 --> 00:15:58.500 Ion at E3 in 2015, which was eventually canceled. 00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:01.269 But that didn't slow them down at all. In December 00:16:01.269 --> 00:16:04.570 2017, they released Stationeers. And Stationeers 00:16:04.570 --> 00:16:07.529 is a wild game. It draws heavy inspiration from 00:16:07.529 --> 00:16:10.029 the cult classic Space Station 13. It's not just 00:16:10.029 --> 00:16:12.169 a game where you shoot aliens in space. You have 00:16:12.169 --> 00:16:13.970 to literally manage the atmospheric pressure, 00:16:14.110 --> 00:16:16.070 the gas mixes, and the electrical grids of a 00:16:16.070 --> 00:16:18.289 space station. Incredibly deep. If you wire a 00:16:18.289 --> 00:16:20.690 battery wrong, your station burns down. It is 00:16:20.690 --> 00:16:24.809 insanely complex. Exactly. It requires the player 00:16:24.809 --> 00:16:27.389 to learn actual systems, not just press buttons. 00:16:27.629 --> 00:16:30.379 They also explored the virtual realities. space 00:16:30.379 --> 00:16:34.100 with titles like Out of Ammo. And then in December 00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:37.159 2021, they released a major survival title called 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:40.600 Icarus. Icarus is a perfect evolution of his 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:43.279 philosophy. It's a session -based survival game. 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:46.519 You drop down to a hostile alien planet to mine 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:49.379 exotic matter, but you have a strict timer. And 00:16:49.379 --> 00:16:51.960 the timer is unforgiving. If you don't get back 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:54.179 to your dropship before that timer hits zero, 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.700 the ship leaves without you, and your character, 00:16:56.740 --> 00:16:58.889 along with all their progression, is... Gone 00:16:58.889 --> 00:17:00.990 forever. There's that Everest mentality again. 00:17:01.129 --> 00:17:03.269 Exactly. The dropship doesn't wait for you, just 00:17:03.269 --> 00:17:04.789 like the mountain doesn't care if you're tired. 00:17:04.990 --> 00:17:07.150 It's that constant threat of severe consequences. 00:17:07.589 --> 00:17:10.170 But what's truly exciting is a very recent development 00:17:10.170 --> 00:17:13.569 from October 2024. This shows Hall is still operating 00:17:13.569 --> 00:17:16.470 exactly the way he always has. He sees a massive 00:17:16.470 --> 00:17:19.970 void and decides to fill it himself. Right. Following 00:17:19.970 --> 00:17:22.609 the reported closure of Intercept Games and the 00:17:22.609 --> 00:17:24.609 development freeze of the highly anticipated 00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:27.930 Kerbal Space Program 2, Hall stepped up to the 00:17:27.930 --> 00:17:30.440 plate. He announced that Rocketworks had started 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:32.859 work on a brand new game titled Kitten Space 00:17:32.859 --> 00:17:36.039 Agency. And this move is monumental for fans 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:39.279 of the genre. For context, Kerbal Space Program 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.559 is a beloved game about building rockets and 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:44.660 flying them into space. But it uses actual punishing 00:17:44.660 --> 00:17:47.960 orbital mechanics and real physics. It is notoriously 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.079 difficult. Yes. And with its sequel Frozen, that 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:53.339 entire dedicated community was left stranded. 00:17:53.769 --> 00:17:55.809 Hall specifically stated the Kitten Space Agency 00:17:55.809 --> 00:17:58.190 is designed as a spiritual successor to Kerbal 00:17:58.190 --> 00:18:00.789 Space Program. His stated goal is to replicate 00:18:00.789 --> 00:18:03.430 the exact same feeling, commitment, and challenge 00:18:03.430 --> 00:18:05.589 of the original. It's such a massive undertaking. 00:18:05.950 --> 00:18:08.329 Making a spiritual successor to a game based 00:18:08.329 --> 00:18:10.589 on literal rocket science is not for the faint 00:18:10.589 --> 00:18:13.369 of heart. No, it's not. But when Hall sees a 00:18:13.369 --> 00:18:16.430 gap in the market, specifically a gap where an 00:18:16.430 --> 00:18:18.930 intense, complex challenge is desperately needed, 00:18:19.089 --> 00:18:21.450 he doesn't wait for a major publisher to fix 00:18:21.450 --> 00:18:24.569 it. He builds it himself. He saw the void left 00:18:24.569 --> 00:18:27.950 by KSP2 and immediately pivoted his studio to 00:18:27.950 --> 00:18:31.089 ensure that specific, unforgiving brand of physics 00:18:31.089 --> 00:18:34.279 -based challenge wouldn't die out. It's an incredible 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:36.119 timeline when you step back and look at it from 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.859 start to finish. We've traced the journey of 00:18:38.859 --> 00:18:42.339 a kid rolling dice in Oamaru to a starving soldier 00:18:42.339 --> 00:18:45.779 in the jungles of Brunei losing 55 pounds to 00:18:45.779 --> 00:18:48.500 a visionary modder who took that trauma and accidentally 00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:51.079 created the modern survival gaming genre. The 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.099 whole path is extraordinary. And now he's an 00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:55.220 Everest climbing studio head building spiritual 00:18:55.220 --> 00:18:59.000 successors to beloved space simulators. One person's 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:01.900 absolute commitment to authentic, brutal survival 00:19:01.900 --> 00:19:04.460 mechanics. completely changed the landscape of 00:19:04.460 --> 00:19:06.559 modern gaming. Without a doubt. Without that 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:09.480 horrific experience in Brunei, the entire survival 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:11.640 genre as we know it today, games where you genuinely 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.119 fear for your digital life, might look completely 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.099 different or might not exist at all. It is a 00:19:16.099 --> 00:19:18.640 profound legacy of turning pain into innovation. 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:21.680 And it leaves us with a fascinating, somewhat 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:24.960 provocative thought to ponder. Hall's greatest 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.240 digital achievements were directly forged in 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:30.279 the fires of extreme, real -world physical suffering. 00:19:30.500 --> 00:19:33.220 Starvation in Brunei and freezing on Everest. 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:36.339 Exactly. So in an era where creators are living 00:19:36.339 --> 00:19:38.700 increasingly comfortable, purely digital lives, 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.819 it raises an important question. Are we at risk 00:19:42.819 --> 00:19:45.500 of losing the raw, uncomfortable human experiences 00:19:45.500 --> 00:19:48.460 required to create truly groundbreaking virtual 00:19:48.460 --> 00:19:50.869 worlds? That is a brilliant question for you 00:19:50.869 --> 00:19:52.930 to mull over as we wrap up today's deep dive. 00:19:53.069 --> 00:19:55.049 We want to warmly thank you for joining us on 00:19:55.049 --> 00:19:56.990 this exploration into the incredible life and 00:19:56.990 --> 00:19:59.869 mind of Dean Hall. Keep asking questions, stay 00:19:59.869 --> 00:20:02.009 curious, and keep exploring the hidden stories 00:20:02.009 --> 00:20:04.289 behind the things you love. Until next time.