WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.540 I want you to imagine something for a second. 00:00:01.639 --> 00:00:04.960 Okay. Picture a grassroots youth group. It's 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:09.060 the early 90s, right? So there's no widespread 00:00:09.060 --> 00:00:11.339 internet yet. Right, no social media campaigns. 00:00:11.460 --> 00:00:13.699 Exactly, no smartphones, just a collection of 00:00:13.699 --> 00:00:17.199 young people navigating this really rapidly changing 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:19.480 world. Now imagine this group was founded by 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:21.960 a poet. A poet and a songwriter, yeah. Right. 00:00:22.269 --> 00:00:24.690 And then I want you to imagine this exact same 00:00:24.690 --> 00:00:28.589 grassroots group growing so influential, so relentlessly 00:00:28.589 --> 00:00:31.649 organized over the years that they managed to 00:00:31.649 --> 00:00:34.689 help rewrite a nation's constitution. Which is 00:00:34.689 --> 00:00:37.549 just staggering. It is. And years later, they 00:00:37.549 --> 00:00:40.649 force major global tech giants to completely 00:00:40.649 --> 00:00:43.109 change their e -commerce practices. Yeah, it 00:00:43.109 --> 00:00:44.869 really does sound like the plot of an indie movie. 00:00:45.070 --> 00:00:47.149 It totally does, right? But it is absolutely 00:00:47.149 --> 00:00:50.200 real. Welcome to today's Deep Dive. I am so glad 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:51.979 you're here with us. Today we are looking at 00:00:51.979 --> 00:00:54.600 the anatomy of a truly fascinating social movement. 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:57.579 It's a remarkable trajectory. It really is. We 00:00:57.579 --> 00:01:00.200 are going to be diving into the history, the 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:04.019 methodology, and the widespread activities of 00:01:04.019 --> 00:01:08.560 the Never Again Association, or in Polish, Starcy 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:11.700 Szyn Nigdziwych. Starcy Szyn Nigdziwych. Yes. 00:01:11.939 --> 00:01:14.879 They are widely recognized as Poland's leading 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:18.390 anti -racist organization. And our mission today 00:01:18.390 --> 00:01:21.150 is to trace how this group actually works from 00:01:21.150 --> 00:01:23.450 the inside out. We've got a comprehensive history 00:01:23.450 --> 00:01:26.450 of their operations here, basically tracing from 00:01:26.450 --> 00:01:29.310 their informal beginnings to their massive modern 00:01:29.310 --> 00:01:31.489 day campaigns. Yeah, we're going to look at how 00:01:31.489 --> 00:01:34.430 they tackle systemic issues across some wildly 00:01:34.430 --> 00:01:35.849 different battlegrounds. I mean, we're talking 00:01:35.849 --> 00:01:38.870 culture, sports, the law and obviously the Internet. 00:01:39.010 --> 00:01:41.010 But before we jump into the timeline, it's probably 00:01:41.010 --> 00:01:43.629 important to establish the context of where they 00:01:43.629 --> 00:01:45.500 operate and how they're structured. Absolutely. 00:01:45.620 --> 00:01:48.180 So the Never Again Association is based in Warsaw, 00:01:48.420 --> 00:01:51.599 Poland. OK. And their area of service covers 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:54.120 Poland, but also the broader central and eastern 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:56.540 European region. But I'd say perhaps the most 00:01:56.540 --> 00:01:59.340 crucial foundational detail about them is their 00:01:59.340 --> 00:02:02.519 status. They are a strictly independent organization, 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:05.879 meaning they are completely unlinked to any political 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:07.760 party, which. Which gives them a very unique 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:10.199 type of leverage. Precisely. It gives them credibility. 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:12.659 That independence really is the bedrock of what 00:02:12.659 --> 00:02:15.659 they do. Now, just a quick note for you listening 00:02:15.659 --> 00:02:18.240 out there. Our material today deals with some 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:20.340 pretty heavy and politically charged themes. 00:02:20.659 --> 00:02:22.560 Yes, it does. We're going to be talking about 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.060 the organization's work combating far -right 00:02:25.060 --> 00:02:29.060 extremism, fascism, racism, xenophobia, and anti 00:02:29.060 --> 00:02:32.500 -Semitism. And as always on this show, our goal 00:02:32.500 --> 00:02:35.139 here isn't to take political sides or endorse 00:02:35.139 --> 00:02:37.479 specific viewpoints. Right. We're simply acting 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:39.860 as guides. Exactly. We are here to report the 00:02:39.860 --> 00:02:42.639 facts, the history, and the ideas exactly as 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:44.939 they are documented in our sources. We're essentially 00:02:44.939 --> 00:02:46.680 just here to understand the mechanics of this 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:48.800 movement, nothing more. We're looking at the 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:51.680 how and the why of their operations, analyzing 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:54.620 the actual strategies that took them from a local 00:02:54.620 --> 00:02:57.539 collective to an internationally recognized non 00:02:57.539 --> 00:02:59.879 -governmental organization. OK, let's unpack 00:02:59.879 --> 00:03:01.939 this. Let's go all the way back to the beginning. 00:03:02.219 --> 00:03:05.719 Because the origin story of Never Again, it doesn't 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:08.439 start in some corporate boardroom. No, it doesn't. 00:03:08.500 --> 00:03:11.259 Or a polished political office either. It starts 00:03:11.259 --> 00:03:14.319 with a man named Marcin Kornak. Yes, Marcin Kornak 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:17.960 is the architect here. And his background is 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:20.180 not at all what you might expect for the founder 00:03:20.180 --> 00:03:23.219 of a major national NGO. Right. You'd expect 00:03:23.219 --> 00:03:25.270 a lawyer, maybe. Or a traditional politician. 00:03:25.389 --> 00:03:27.650 But no, he was a social activist and a public 00:03:27.650 --> 00:03:31.750 life commentator. But at his core, he was a poet. 00:03:31.870 --> 00:03:34.289 A poet. A poet and a songwriter who collaborated 00:03:34.289 --> 00:03:36.909 really closely with independent rock bands in 00:03:36.909 --> 00:03:39.810 Poland at the time. See, that leap from collaborating 00:03:39.810 --> 00:03:42.990 with indie rock bands to building a massive organizational 00:03:42.990 --> 00:03:45.949 structure, that is just fascinating to me. How 00:03:45.949 --> 00:03:48.650 does a poet actually build that kind of operational 00:03:48.650 --> 00:03:51.159 machinery? Well, I think it comes down to understanding 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:54.020 networks. In the early 90s, the independent music 00:03:54.020 --> 00:03:56.180 scene was essentially a pre -internet social 00:03:56.180 --> 00:03:58.280 network. Oh, that's a great way to put it. Right. 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:02.020 Kornak understood how to mobilize passionate 00:04:02.020 --> 00:04:05.319 young people around a shared ethos. And it's 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:08.020 also really crucial to understand his personal 00:04:08.020 --> 00:04:11.229 context here. Go on. From the age of 15, due 00:04:11.229 --> 00:04:14.009 to an accident, Marcin Kornak lived with a physical 00:04:14.009 --> 00:04:17.089 disability. Wow. So he navigated building this 00:04:17.089 --> 00:04:19.750 massive dynamic social movement, one that... 00:04:19.930 --> 00:04:22.149 obviously required immense logistical coordination 00:04:22.149 --> 00:04:24.790 and a huge public presence while living with 00:04:24.790 --> 00:04:26.769 a physical disability from his teenage years. 00:04:26.910 --> 00:04:29.730 Exactly. It really speaks volumes about his personal 00:04:29.730 --> 00:04:32.610 resilience and just his overall vision for a 00:04:32.610 --> 00:04:35.329 more inclusive society. It does. And the organization 00:04:35.329 --> 00:04:38.589 itself, it was a gradual evolution into a formal 00:04:38.589 --> 00:04:41.449 entity. It didn't happen overnight. No. The group 00:04:41.449 --> 00:04:43.829 first became active as an informal youth collective 00:04:43.829 --> 00:04:47.129 in 1992. OK, so that's the early 90s content. 00:04:47.250 --> 00:04:49.069 Right. And they spent a few years operating in 00:04:49.069 --> 00:04:52.389 that grassroots community level capacity, essentially 00:04:52.389 --> 00:04:54.670 figuring out what worked and what didn't before 00:04:54.670 --> 00:04:56.769 they officially and formally founded the Never 00:04:56.769 --> 00:05:00.089 Again Association in 1996. So 96 is the official 00:05:00.089 --> 00:05:03.889 start date. Yes. And Marcin Kornak led the organization 00:05:03.889 --> 00:05:07.050 with incredible drive for years until his passing 00:05:07.050 --> 00:05:10.360 in 2014. Following his death, the leadership 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:13.240 transitioned to Rafa Pankowski. He's a Polish 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:15.759 sociologist, right? Yes, a sociologist and political 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:18.560 scientist, and he continues to head the organization 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:21.620 today. So they formalized the group in 1996, 00:05:21.939 --> 00:05:25.519 and their big goal was breaking the silence on 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:29.120 xenophobia, which is a massive, somewhat abstract 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:31.790 goal. Did they have a specific... demographic 00:05:31.790 --> 00:05:34.970 they targeted first to actually move the needle? 00:05:35.170 --> 00:05:37.569 They were highly strategic about that. The overarching 00:05:37.569 --> 00:05:40.029 mission was to promote multicultural understanding 00:05:40.029 --> 00:05:42.370 and to contribute to the development of a democratic 00:05:42.370 --> 00:05:45.189 civil society. Sure. But they recognized almost 00:05:45.189 --> 00:05:48.170 immediately that to eliminate or marginalize 00:05:48.170 --> 00:05:50.689 xenophobic tendencies, you have to engage the 00:05:50.689 --> 00:05:52.269 next generation. You have to reach the kids. 00:05:52.529 --> 00:05:54.829 Exactly. A primary concern for them has always 00:05:54.829 --> 00:05:57.670 been education against racial and ethnic prejudices, 00:05:57.810 --> 00:06:00.810 specifically aimed at young people. They weren't 00:06:00.810 --> 00:06:02.410 just preaching to the choir. They were trying 00:06:02.410 --> 00:06:04.470 to shape the foundational values of the youth. 00:06:04.610 --> 00:06:08.110 And whatever framework they built clearly resonated 00:06:08.110 --> 00:06:10.889 on a global scale. Because to understand the 00:06:10.889 --> 00:06:13.290 gravity of their work, you just have to look 00:06:13.290 --> 00:06:15.269 at who has officially endorsed them over the 00:06:15.269 --> 00:06:17.870 years. We are talking about historical giants 00:06:17.870 --> 00:06:20.189 here. We really are. People like Jan Karski, 00:06:20.269 --> 00:06:23.629 Merrick Edelman, and Simon Wiesenthal. Holocaust 00:06:23.629 --> 00:06:26.870 survivors who have a profound lived understanding 00:06:26.870 --> 00:06:30.029 of what happens when prejudice goes unchecked 00:06:30.029 --> 00:06:33.189 in a society. And receiving validation from figures 00:06:33.189 --> 00:06:36.189 of that historical magnitude. I mean, that isn't 00:06:36.189 --> 00:06:38.759 just a PR win. No, definitely not. It's a testament 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:41.439 to the rigor and the necessity of their methodology. 00:06:41.660 --> 00:06:44.000 It signals that what Never Again is doing is 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.620 recognizing those early warning signs that these 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:49.019 historical figures knew all too well. But they 00:06:49.019 --> 00:06:51.120 also bridge the gap into the modern era, which 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:53.399 is interesting. They've been endorsed by contemporary 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:56.480 global figures like Barack Obama and even Kate 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:58.180 Middleton, the Duchess of Cambridge. That's quite 00:06:58.180 --> 00:07:00.779 the range, right? Getting a nod from both Simon 00:07:00.779 --> 00:07:03.220 Wiesenthal and the British royal family shows 00:07:03.220 --> 00:07:06.220 just an incredible breadth of influence. It demonstrates 00:07:06.220 --> 00:07:09.000 that their approach transcends localized political 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:12.240 squabbles. It resonates on a universal global 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:15.120 human rights level. Yeah. But to understand why 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:17.339 these figures endorse them, we have to look at 00:07:17.339 --> 00:07:19.680 what actually gives them their power. And their 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:23.120 most potent tool isn't rhetoric. It's documentation. 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:25.160 Exactly. Right. They don't just talk about the 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:28.519 problem. They track it. Which brings us to a 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:31.899 massive pillar of their operations. The Brown 00:07:31.899 --> 00:07:35.579 Book. Yes. The Brown Book. And we really shouldn't 00:07:35.579 --> 00:07:38.220 think of this as just a metaphorical ledger or 00:07:38.220 --> 00:07:40.800 some casual list of complaints. It's serious 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:44.079 data. It is the most extensive, rigorous register 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:47.420 of racist incidents and xenophobic crimes committed 00:07:47.420 --> 00:07:50.319 in Poland. It is a strictly empirical database. 00:07:50.500 --> 00:07:52.740 So they took hate, which is usually treated as 00:07:52.740 --> 00:07:55.079 this vague social ill, and they turned it into 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:58.459 a trackable metric. Yes. And in the 1990s, building 00:07:58.459 --> 00:08:00.930 a database like that meant... actual physical 00:08:00.930 --> 00:08:03.670 legwork. It meant tracking local news clippings, 00:08:03.670 --> 00:08:05.829 taking phone calls, and physically verifying 00:08:05.829 --> 00:08:08.250 incidents without the luxury of just doing a 00:08:08.250 --> 00:08:10.029 quick internet search. Right, it was labor intensive. 00:08:10.329 --> 00:08:12.629 But once you have the most reliable data, you 00:08:12.629 --> 00:08:16.069 become the definitive source. And that data pipeline 00:08:16.069 --> 00:08:18.750 is exactly what gave them international reach. 00:08:19.339 --> 00:08:21.879 never again has provided their expertise and 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:24.379 consulted for major television networks. Like 00:08:24.379 --> 00:08:28.920 the BBC and CNN. The BBC, CNN, Euronews, RTE. 00:08:29.399 --> 00:08:31.740 They've assisted in writing heavily researched 00:08:31.740 --> 00:08:34.559 articles for The New York Times, Guardian, Le 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:38.320 Monde, Die Tage Zeitung, and major Polish outlets 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:40.639 like Gazeta Wyborcza. So when the international 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:43.059 press corps needs to understand the actual landscape 00:08:43.059 --> 00:08:45.659 of extremism in Central and Eastern Europe. They 00:08:45.659 --> 00:08:47.720 don't just ask for opinions. No, they ask for 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:49.860 the Brown Book. Exactly. Here's where it gets 00:08:49.860 --> 00:08:52.240 really interesting. They didn't just use this 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:54.799 data to get quoted in The New York Times. They 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:56.879 used it to physically alter the foundational 00:08:56.879 --> 00:08:59.840 law of their country. Yes. This is a huge turning 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:02.960 point. In 1996, the exact same year they formally 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:06.000 established the organization, never again initiated 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:08.379 a campaign that actually resulted in a constitutional 00:09:08.379 --> 00:09:11.320 change. The leap from an informal youth group 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:13.740 to successfully lobbying for a constitutional 00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:16.559 amendment in their first official year is just 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:19.110 staggering. It's almost unheard of. They successfully 00:09:19.110 --> 00:09:22.490 pushed to have a ban on fascist and racist organizations 00:09:22.490 --> 00:09:25.590 included directly into the Polish Constitution. 00:09:25.809 --> 00:09:28.509 How did they actually pull off that kind of legal 00:09:28.509 --> 00:09:30.509 maneuvering so early on? I mean, they were so 00:09:30.509 --> 00:09:33.480 young. By weaponizing their data. They didn't 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.279 just stand outside government buildings with 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.919 protest signs. They provided undeniable empirical 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:41.059 evidence to institutions like the Parliamentary 00:09:41.059 --> 00:09:43.200 Committee on Ethnic Minorities. They showed lawmakers 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.600 the Brown Book. Exactly. They proved that this 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.220 wasn't an abstract fear, but a documented statistical 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:53.179 reality that required a constitutional safeguard. 00:09:53.500 --> 00:09:56.620 Wow. It is a textbook example of how localized, 00:09:56.860 --> 00:10:00.179 ground -level data collection can scale up to 00:10:00.179 --> 00:10:02.120 influence the highest levels of legislation. 00:10:02.409 --> 00:10:04.690 It's an incredible aha moment. You change the 00:10:04.690 --> 00:10:06.950 Constitution, you change the country. Yes. But 00:10:06.950 --> 00:10:09.210 they didn't stop at courtrooms and parliaments. 00:10:09.309 --> 00:10:11.570 They took the fight directly into the cultural 00:10:11.570 --> 00:10:14.230 battlegrounds. Which circles perfectly back to 00:10:14.230 --> 00:10:16.450 Marcin Kornak's origins in the independent music 00:10:16.450 --> 00:10:19.250 scene. Right. They launched a high -profile educational 00:10:19.250 --> 00:10:22.450 campaign in popular culture called Music Against 00:10:22.450 --> 00:10:25.409 Racism. And they were also producing a regular 00:10:25.409 --> 00:10:28.889 publication since 1994, The Never Again Magazine, 00:10:29.269 --> 00:10:31.610 which eventually transitioned into an e -zine. 00:10:32.350 --> 00:10:34.309 The music campaign is brilliant because they 00:10:34.309 --> 00:10:37.350 didn't just hand out dry academic pamphlets to 00:10:37.350 --> 00:10:40.629 teenagers. They embedded their message into the 00:10:40.629 --> 00:10:43.309 actual culture the youth were consuming. What's 00:10:43.309 --> 00:10:45.809 fascinating here is the underlying strategy of 00:10:45.809 --> 00:10:48.629 territory. Territory. Yeah. They didn't just 00:10:48.629 --> 00:10:51.049 pick music and sports because they were popular. 00:10:51.169 --> 00:10:54.629 In the 1990s, far right and extremist groups 00:10:54.629 --> 00:10:58.169 were actively using the punk, skinhead, and football 00:10:58.169 --> 00:11:00.750 hooligan scenes as their primary recruitment 00:11:00.750 --> 00:11:03.120 grounds. Oh, wow. I didn't realize that. Yes. 00:11:03.259 --> 00:11:05.700 These subcultures were the literal front lines 00:11:05.700 --> 00:11:08.460 of a culture war, so never again went into these 00:11:08.460 --> 00:11:11.000 specific arenas to contest that exact ground. 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:13.039 They were fighting for the same territory, and 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:15.179 they didn't stop at music either. They targeted 00:11:15.179 --> 00:11:17.879 the most volatile cultural arena in Europe, which 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:20.879 is football. Right. In 1996, they organized a 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:23.179 campaign with a very direct directive. Let's 00:11:23.179 --> 00:11:25.299 kick racism out of the stadiums. That's a bold 00:11:25.299 --> 00:11:29.000 move. Very bold. This was aimed squarely at imploring 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:31.519 the Polish Football Association to take definitive 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.700 action. They recognized that stadiums were highly 00:11:34.700 --> 00:11:37.720 visible platforms where extremist behavior was 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:40.899 often normalized or just ignored entirely. And 00:11:40.899 --> 00:11:42.960 they knew they needed backup to tackle something 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:45.240 as massive as European football, right? So they 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:47.120 became a founding member of the FAIR network. 00:11:47.480 --> 00:11:50.419 Yes, the Football Against Racism in Europe network. 00:11:51.100 --> 00:11:54.059 By co -founding FAIR, they helped institutionalize 00:11:54.059 --> 00:11:56.659 this fight across the entire continent, sharing 00:11:56.659 --> 00:11:58.960 tactics and resources with other organizations 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:01.960 in different countries. And this groundwork culminated 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:05.419 in a massive way in 2012 when Poland and Ukraine 00:12:05.419 --> 00:12:08.919 co -hosted the UEFA Euro 2012 tournament. Which 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:10.539 is one of the largest sporting events on the 00:12:10.539 --> 00:12:12.440 planet. Yeah, the eyes of the entire world were 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:14.299 on those stadiums. And ahead of that tournament, 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:16.519 Never Again, operating under the FAIR umbrella, 00:12:16.899 --> 00:12:20.019 launched one of the most extensive anti -racist 00:12:20.019 --> 00:12:21.970 campaigns. in the history of the sport. That's 00:12:21.970 --> 00:12:24.929 huge. They utilized the massive platform of the 00:12:24.929 --> 00:12:27.549 Euro tournament to force a conversation about 00:12:27.549 --> 00:12:30.169 inclusivity that reached millions of fans globally. 00:12:30.470 --> 00:12:32.710 You know, it's worth noting here that Emmanuel 00:12:32.710 --> 00:12:35.960 Elissadebi... Poland's first black international 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:38.759 football player threw his weight behind this 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:41.480 and explicitly endorsed their work. Yes, he did. 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:44.600 That kind of validation from a player who actually 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:47.019 lived the reality of being a minority on those 00:12:47.019 --> 00:12:50.539 very pitches, it carries so much weight. It proves 00:12:50.539 --> 00:12:53.059 their campaigns weren't just administrative exercises. 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:55.940 They mattered to the people actually playing 00:12:55.940 --> 00:12:59.330 the game. Exactly. By embedding themselves in 00:12:59.330 --> 00:13:02.070 music and football, they integrated their message 00:13:02.070 --> 00:13:04.850 into the daily passions of the youth. They made 00:13:04.850 --> 00:13:07.210 anti -racism a part of the cultural fabric, a 00:13:07.210 --> 00:13:09.870 lived experience, rather than just a legal obligation 00:13:09.870 --> 00:13:13.009 mandated by the Constitution. But as we know, 00:13:13.129 --> 00:13:15.210 the places where people gather, where they trade 00:13:15.210 --> 00:13:17.970 ideas and culture, began to fundamentally shift. 00:13:18.149 --> 00:13:20.350 We moved out of the physical stadiums and off 00:13:20.350 --> 00:13:22.590 the physical streets, and we moved onto the Internet. 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.320 and never again had to completely evolve their 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:27.639 operational playbook to keep up with that shift. 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:31.480 The digital era presented an entirely new, highly 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:34.179 decentralized battleground. The organization 00:13:34.179 --> 00:13:36.740 adapted by launching the Delete Racism Project, 00:13:37.100 --> 00:13:40.259 which was aimed specifically at combating online 00:13:40.259 --> 00:13:43.929 hate, racism, and anti -Semitism. But what is 00:13:43.929 --> 00:13:45.809 crucial here is that they didn't just put up 00:13:45.809 --> 00:13:48.909 educational websites. They went after the structural 00:13:48.909 --> 00:13:51.549 infrastructure of online commerce. Yes. Let's 00:13:51.549 --> 00:13:53.909 talk about the 2018 victory with Allegro, because 00:13:53.909 --> 00:13:56.110 this is wild. For those who don't know, Allegro 00:13:56.110 --> 00:13:58.809 is a massive e -commerce platform. It's huge 00:13:58.809 --> 00:14:02.730 in Poland. For over a decade. Never again. actively 00:14:02.730 --> 00:14:04.470 lobbied this company. I mean, you just have to 00:14:04.470 --> 00:14:08.470 admire the sheer stubborn endurance of lobbying 00:14:08.470 --> 00:14:11.190 a tech company for 10 years. Most people can't 00:14:11.190 --> 00:14:12.950 get customer service on the phone for 10 minutes. 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.200 And these volunteers spent a decade meticulously 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.659 fighting this battle. It requires men's grinding 00:14:18.659 --> 00:14:21.320 persistence. It really does. The core issue was 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:24.200 the widespread sale of items bearing Nazi symbols 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:27.259 on the platform. Now, legally speaking, these 00:14:27.259 --> 00:14:29.879 items are illegal in Poland. Furthermore, they 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:32.200 were actually prohibited by Allegro's own terms 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:34.919 of use. But there is a massive difference between 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:37.940 having a rule and enforcing it, especially when 00:14:37.940 --> 00:14:40.720 platforms hide behind the gray area of historical 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:43.480 memorabilia. So the rules were on the books, 00:14:43.580 --> 00:14:46.600 but the platform's self -regulation was completely 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:49.700 failing. What does the never -again playbook 00:14:49.700 --> 00:14:52.039 look like in that kind of scenario? They mobilize 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:54.649 their network. A dedicated team of volunteers 00:14:54.649 --> 00:14:57.649 from the association meticulously tracked down, 00:14:57.769 --> 00:15:01.850 documented, and reported sales of over 1 ,000 00:15:01.850 --> 00:15:04.769 of these specific illegal auctions to Allegro. 00:15:04.889 --> 00:15:07.789 Over 1 ,000. Yes. They didn't just complain about 00:15:07.789 --> 00:15:10.750 a general trend. They provided an undeniable 00:15:10.750 --> 00:15:13.590 itemized data set proving the platform's failure 00:15:13.590 --> 00:15:16.049 to moderate its own space. They essentially built 00:15:16.049 --> 00:15:18.370 a digital brown book just for Allegro. That's 00:15:18.370 --> 00:15:20.009 a perfect way to describe it. And it worked. 00:15:20.409 --> 00:15:23.190 After that massive influx of flag data and a 00:15:23.190 --> 00:15:26.210 decade of relentless pressure, they finally forced 00:15:26.210 --> 00:15:29.149 the platform's hand, halting the sales and taking 00:15:29.149 --> 00:15:32.049 those thousands of auctions down. It is a massive, 00:15:32.070 --> 00:15:34.669 tangible victory for accountability in the digital 00:15:34.669 --> 00:15:37.509 space. It really is. Yeah. And they used that 00:15:37.509 --> 00:15:40.789 momentum to evolve their strategy from reactive 00:15:40.789 --> 00:15:44.779 to proactive. In 2021, they formed a partnership 00:15:44.779 --> 00:15:47.480 with OLX, which is the largest classified ad 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:50.340 platform in Poland. Now, think about that. How 00:15:50.340 --> 00:15:54.000 does an NGO actually partner with a massive tech 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.320 platform's algorithm? Yeah, how does that work? 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:58.879 Instead of just lobbying from the outside as 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.059 an external watchdog, they integrated their expertise 00:16:02.059 --> 00:16:04.639 with the platform's internal moderation teams. 00:16:04.820 --> 00:16:07.120 Oh, wow. They actively partnered together to 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:10.960 monitor, flag, and delete sales of racist, fascist, 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:12.919 and anti -Semitic propaganda. propaganda before 00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:14.720 it could proliferate. So they were getting ahead 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.259 of it. Exactly. It marks a significant shift 00:16:17.259 --> 00:16:19.740 from merely reporting on the internet's failings 00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:22.679 to actively sanitizing the digital spaces where 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:25.139 millions of people conduct daily business. And 00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:27.639 while cleaning up the digital space stops the 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:30.679 spread of propaganda, Never Again recognizes 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:33.200 that algorithms don't change hearts. No, they 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:35.100 don't. You still have to deal with the individuals 00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:37.779 who are already radicalized. Which brings us 00:16:37.779 --> 00:16:39.840 to a part of their work that is profoundly human 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:42.480 and deeply challenging. If we connect this to 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:44.500 the bigger picture, this might be one of their 00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:47.000 most significant, yet least publicized contributions. 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.659 Yeah. The organization actively works within 00:16:49.659 --> 00:16:52.399 the penitentiary system, engaging with prison 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:55.039 personnel and inmates to promote diversity and 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.259 respect in highly volatile environments. And 00:16:58.259 --> 00:17:00.360 it goes beyond just educational seminars, too. 00:17:00.830 --> 00:17:03.529 Since the mid -90s, the Never Again Association 00:17:03.529 --> 00:17:06.410 was the very first organization in Poland to 00:17:06.410 --> 00:17:09.430 offer non -material support to individuals who 00:17:09.430 --> 00:17:12.069 actively desired to leave far -right circles. 00:17:12.410 --> 00:17:14.650 Leaving an extremist group is psychologically 00:17:14.650 --> 00:17:18.369 and socially devastating. It is akin to leaving 00:17:18.369 --> 00:17:20.309 a cult. Because you're cutting off everyone you 00:17:20.309 --> 00:17:22.549 know. Right. You are often abandoning your entire 00:17:22.549 --> 00:17:25.049 social safety net, your friends, and your ingrained 00:17:25.049 --> 00:17:28.430 worldview. Never again recognize that simply 00:17:28.430 --> 00:17:30.269 telling these people they're wrong isn't a... 00:17:30.250 --> 00:17:32.650 enough, you have to provide an off -ramp. What 00:17:32.650 --> 00:17:34.970 does that non -material support actually look 00:17:34.970 --> 00:17:37.769 like in practice? It looks like counseling, guidance, 00:17:38.029 --> 00:17:40.670 and providing a safe, non -judgmental space to 00:17:40.670 --> 00:17:43.650 ideologically transition. It is dangerous, tedious, 00:17:43.769 --> 00:17:46.329 day -to -day work. I can imagine. It requires 00:17:46.329 --> 00:17:48.690 an immense amount of empathy to sit down with 00:17:48.690 --> 00:17:51.190 someone who has held abhorrent views and help 00:17:51.190 --> 00:17:53.029 them rebuild their psychological foundation. 00:17:53.730 --> 00:17:56.950 But it represents a profound commitment to true 00:17:56.950 --> 00:17:59.349 de -radicalization and human rehabilitation. 00:18:00.089 --> 00:18:02.170 It's treating the underlying disease, not just 00:18:02.170 --> 00:18:04.990 treating the symptoms by deleting an online auction 00:18:04.990 --> 00:18:08.289 or banning a chant in a stadium. Precisely. It 00:18:08.289 --> 00:18:10.430 acknowledges that combating systemic intolerance 00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:13.049 requires offering a path back to society for 00:18:13.049 --> 00:18:14.869 those who have lost their way. So what does this 00:18:14.869 --> 00:18:17.130 all mean? When you step back and look at the 00:18:17.130 --> 00:18:19.230 entire scope of the Never Again Association. 00:18:20.539 --> 00:18:23.240 You see a masterclass in how a social movement 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:25.960 actually achieves lasting change. You really 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:27.980 do. To you, the listener out there, if you take 00:18:27.980 --> 00:18:29.880 away anything from this deep dive, let it be 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.559 this. Combating complex systemic issues requires 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:36.700 a fiercely multi -pronged approach. You cannot 00:18:36.700 --> 00:18:39.539 just rely on one tactic. No single tactic is 00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:41.740 enough. Right. You need the meticulous, irrefutable 00:18:41.740 --> 00:18:43.920 data collection like the Brown Book to prove 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.380 the problem exists and change the laws. You need 00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:49.319 the cultural presence, too. Yes, you have to 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:51.539 be in the football stadiums and the underground 00:18:51.539 --> 00:18:54.200 rock clubs fighting for the same territory as 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:57.299 the extremists to reach the youth. You need the 00:18:57.299 --> 00:19:01.140 relentless digital vigilance to hold global e 00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:03.240 -commerce giants accountable. And perhaps most 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:06.099 importantly, you need the profound human empathy 00:19:06.099 --> 00:19:09.140 to walk into a prison system or to reach out 00:19:09.140 --> 00:19:11.680 to someone trapped in an extremist circle and 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:13.990 actually help them change their life. It is a 00:19:13.990 --> 00:19:16.750 comprehensive, deeply integrated strategy that 00:19:16.750 --> 00:19:20.170 spans the legal, the cultural, the digital, and 00:19:20.170 --> 00:19:22.930 the deeply personal spheres of a society. It 00:19:22.930 --> 00:19:25.230 really is. And we want to leave you with a final 00:19:25.230 --> 00:19:27.309 thought today, something to chew on after you 00:19:27.309 --> 00:19:29.490 finish listening. This raises an important question. 00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:32.559 Consider the incredible evolution of the Never 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:35.259 Again Association that we've just unpacked. They 00:19:35.259 --> 00:19:37.299 transitioned from manually recording physical 00:19:37.299 --> 00:19:39.819 incidents in a physical ledger in the 90s to 00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:42.339 utilizing teams of digital volunteers to hunt 00:19:42.339 --> 00:19:45.079 down illegal e -commerce auctions and partnering 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.019 with complex algorithms today. It's a huge leap. 00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:51.240 It is. As our lives continue to move increasingly 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:54.299 online, the nature of tracking and combating 00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:57.720 hate has to continually evolve. When the stadiums 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:00.019 and streets of tomorrow are entirely virtual, 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:02.579 when communities gather in sprawling digital 00:20:02.579 --> 00:20:04.980 metaverses rather than physical city squares, 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:07.819 how must the strategies of organizations like 00:20:07.819 --> 00:20:10.539 Never Again adapt to ensure that the message 00:20:10.539 --> 00:20:13.259 of inclusivity survives the leap into the virtual 00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:16.019 world? That is a massive question, and it is 00:20:16.019 --> 00:20:18.480 the exact challenge waiting for the next generation 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.920 of activists and digital citizens. Thank you 00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:22.700 so much for joining us on this deep dive. We 00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:24.859 loved unpacking this history with you, and we 00:20:24.859 --> 00:20:26.900 hope you walk away today with a much deeper perspective 00:20:26.900 --> 00:20:29.440 on how a social movement actually operates, scales, 00:20:29.460 --> 00:20:31.920 and sustains itself across decades. Until next 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:34.279 time, keep learning and keep asking questions.