WEBVTT 00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:04.440 Apple podcast title. The deep dive. The James 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:07.259 Norris Memorial Trophy and the NHL's greatest 00:00:07.259 --> 00:00:11.480 defenseman. Apple podcast description. What does 00:00:11.480 --> 00:00:14.199 it take to be the absolute best at playing defense 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:17.179 in the National Hockey League? In this deep dive, 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:19.660 we unpack the history, legends, and criteria 00:00:19.660 --> 00:00:22.800 of the James Norris Memorial Trophy. From Bobby 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:24.920 Orr's untouchable records to the voting secrets 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:26.519 of the Professional Hockey Writers Association, 00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:29.140 we break down everything you need to know about 00:00:29.140 --> 00:00:31.850 the NHL's top defensive honor. Whether you're 00:00:31.850 --> 00:00:33.890 a diehard hockey fan or just love learning about 00:00:33.890 --> 00:00:36.170 the peak of athletic achievement, this episode 00:00:36.170 --> 00:00:38.189 gives you the ultimate shortcut to being well 00:00:38.189 --> 00:00:40.729 -informed. Tune in to explore the rare crossover 00:00:40.729 --> 00:00:43.350 between the Norris and Hart trophies, the dominance 00:00:43.350 --> 00:00:45.229 of the Boston Bruins and Montreal Canadiens, 00:00:45.229 --> 00:00:46.909 and what it truly means to have the greatest 00:00:46.909 --> 00:00:50.649 all -round ability on the ice. Keywords, NHL, 00:00:50.670 --> 00:00:53.429 James Norris Memorial Trophy, best NHL defenseman, 00:00:53.509 --> 00:00:56.399 hockey history. Bobby Orr and Nicholas Lindstrom, 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:58.759 Hart Trophy Hockey Awards. Welcome to the Deep 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:01.259 Dive. I'm really glad you decided to join us 00:01:01.259 --> 00:01:03.140 today because we have a fantastic mission ahead 00:01:03.140 --> 00:01:05.560 of us. We really do. Today we're exploring a 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:08.260 Wikipedia article detailing the history and legacy 00:01:08.260 --> 00:01:11.280 of the James Norris Memorial Trophy. And, I mean, 00:01:11.299 --> 00:01:13.819 if you spend any time watching the NHL, you know 00:01:13.819 --> 00:01:15.980 that the guys on the blue line really dictate 00:01:15.980 --> 00:01:17.959 the pace of the entire game. Oh, absolutely. 00:01:18.140 --> 00:01:20.859 They're the foundation. Right. But what separates 00:01:20.859 --> 00:01:23.579 a top -pairing regular from a historical icon? 00:01:24.620 --> 00:01:27.000 Our goal today is to give you a comprehensive 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:30.480 shortcut to understanding the absolute pinnacle 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:33.340 of defensive excellence in the National Hockey 00:01:33.340 --> 00:01:35.319 League. We're talking the best of the best. Exactly. 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:38.700 We're going to look at the history, the voting 00:01:38.700 --> 00:01:41.480 mechanics, and the really elite criteria that 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:44.900 define this award. And to set the stakes right 00:01:44.900 --> 00:01:46.760 out of the gate, I want to give you a stat that 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:49.400 perfectly frames how high the bar is set here. 00:01:49.579 --> 00:01:52.239 This is wild. It is. Think about this. Almost 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:54.879 every single eligible player who has ever won 00:01:54.879 --> 00:01:56.840 the Norris Trophy is currently sitting in the 00:01:56.840 --> 00:01:59.090 Hockey Hall of Fame. Out of the entire history 00:01:59.090 --> 00:02:01.829 of this award stretching way back to the 1950s, 00:02:01.829 --> 00:02:04.370 there are only two exceptions among eligible 00:02:04.370 --> 00:02:07.390 players. That is the caliber of athlete we are 00:02:07.390 --> 00:02:10.189 discussing today. Winning this trophy is essentially 00:02:10.189 --> 00:02:13.759 a golden ticket to hockey immortality. I've got 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:15.699 my resident expert here with me, and together 00:02:15.699 --> 00:02:18.860 we are going to decode the criteria, analyze 00:02:18.860 --> 00:02:21.539 the legends who basically monopolize the award, 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:24.439 and explore some of the specific voting quirks 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:26.740 that shape the history of the NHL. Yeah, there's 00:02:26.740 --> 00:02:29.180 a lot to dig into. Okay, let's unpack this. Where 00:02:29.180 --> 00:02:31.479 does the James Norris Memorial Trophy... actually 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:33.979 originate, and I guess who was James Norris? 00:02:34.099 --> 00:02:35.740 Well, it takes us right back to the foundational 00:02:35.740 --> 00:02:38.479 eras of the National Hockey League. The trophy 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:40.939 is named in honor of James E. Norris, who was 00:02:40.939 --> 00:02:43.039 the longtime owner of the Detroit Red Wings. 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:46.819 Okay. His tenure spanned two full decades, from 00:02:46.819 --> 00:02:51.000 1932 all the way to 1952. And right after his 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:54.000 era ended, the NHL decided to establish an award 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:56.520 in his name. Makes sense. Yeah. The trophy was 00:02:56.520 --> 00:02:59.180 first awarded at the conclusion of the 1953 -54 00:02:59.180 --> 00:03:02.879 NHL season. And fittingly, that very first James 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.240 Norris Memorial Trophy went to a player from 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:07.759 the Detroit Red Wings, Red Kelly. Oh, wow. Keeping 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:10.419 it in the family right away. Exactly. Yeah. But 00:03:10.419 --> 00:03:12.860 what really sets this award apart isn't just 00:03:12.860 --> 00:03:16.120 its namesake. It's the specific language the 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:19.020 league used to define the criteria. Right. The 00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:21.680 actual rulebook definition. Yeah. The award is 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:24.879 officially given to the defense player who demonstrates 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:27.719 throughout the season the greatest all -round 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:30.120 ability in the position. Greatest all -round 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:32.539 ability. Right. What's fascinating here is that 00:03:32.539 --> 00:03:36.580 the NHL deliberately avoided tying the award 00:03:36.580 --> 00:03:40.379 to a specific statistical metric. So no hard 00:03:40.379 --> 00:03:43.039 numbers. None. They didn't mandate that it goes 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:44.800 to the defenseman with the highest plus minus 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:47.060 or the most points or the most blocked shots. 00:03:47.379 --> 00:03:50.240 The phrase greatest all -around ability requires 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.300 a player to be a complete master of their craft 00:03:53.300 --> 00:03:56.319 in all three zones of the ice. That wording leaves 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:58.360 a lot of room for interpretation, though, which 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:00.560 places a heavy burden on the people actually 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:02.620 casting the vote. Oh, yeah, it's a huge debate 00:04:02.620 --> 00:04:05.080 every year. Because it isn't a fan vote. or a 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:07.199 general manager's poll. The voting is actually 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.000 handed over to the members of the Professional 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:10.960 Hockey Writers Association at the end of the 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:14.400 regular season. The PHWA. Right. These are the 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:16.899 journalists analyzing the shifts, the underlying 00:04:16.899 --> 00:04:19.500 metrics, and the nightly performances. But they 00:04:19.500 --> 00:04:21.500 don't just pick one winner. No, it's much more 00:04:21.500 --> 00:04:25.100 complicated than that. The PHWA uses a weighted 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:27.779 system where each voter ranks their top five 00:04:27.779 --> 00:04:30.439 candidates. They assign 10 points for a first 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:32.860 place vote. Seven for second, five for third, 00:04:33.019 --> 00:04:35.500 three for fourth, and one for fifth. It's a very 00:04:35.500 --> 00:04:38.259 specific breakdown. It is. How does that specific 00:04:38.259 --> 00:04:41.360 mathematical breakdown impact who actually walks 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:44.079 away with the hardware at the NHL awards ceremony? 00:04:44.420 --> 00:04:46.959 It heavily influences the outcome because it 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.319 effectively neutralizes polarizing players. What 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:52.199 do you mean by polarizing? Let's say you have 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:54.620 a defenseman who puts up massive offensive numbers 00:04:54.620 --> 00:04:57.759 but is a known liability in his own end. A fraction 00:04:57.759 --> 00:04:59.819 of the writers might give him a first place vote 00:04:59.819 --> 00:05:02.680 purely for his scoring. Because points are flashy. 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:06.300 Exactly. But the writers who prioritize traditional 00:05:06.300 --> 00:05:09.060 defensive metrics, the guys looking at blocked 00:05:09.060 --> 00:05:11.500 shots and positioning, they might leave him off 00:05:11.500 --> 00:05:14.000 their ballots entirely. Ah, so he gets zero points 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:16.620 from them. Right. And getting zero points on 00:05:16.620 --> 00:05:19.300 a large chunk of ballots will completely tank 00:05:19.300 --> 00:05:22.079 a player's overall score. To accumulate enough 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:25.259 points to win under that 10 -7 -5 -3 -1 system, 00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:28.860 a defenseman has to consistently appear at the 00:05:28.860 --> 00:05:31.480 very top of ballots across the entire association. 00:05:31.819 --> 00:05:34.379 I need everyone on board. It forces a consensus. 00:05:34.620 --> 00:05:37.319 You have to convince the analytics crowd, the 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:39.939 traditional eye test crowd, and the local beat 00:05:39.939 --> 00:05:41.839 writers across all the different markets that 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:44.639 you possess that all -round ability. When you 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:47.279 realize how mathematically difficult it is to 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:49.920 get all those writers to agree on one name using 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.600 that specific point system, it makes the record 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.240 set by certain historical players look completely 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:57.439 fictional. It really does. Getting that consensus 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:00.180 once is a career -defining achievement. Right. 00:06:00.259 --> 00:06:02.639 But we need to talk about Bobby Orr of the Boston 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:04.800 Bruins, who managed to get that consensus eight 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:06.860 consecutive times. Eight times in a row. It's 00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:10.319 unbelievable. From the 1967 -68 season all the 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:13.740 way through the 1974 -75 season. No... Other 00:06:13.740 --> 00:06:15.420 defensemen in the National Hockey League touched 00:06:15.420 --> 00:06:17.740 that trophy. How does a player even do that? 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:20.300 How do you maintain a grip on a subjective, writer 00:06:20.300 --> 00:06:22.639 -voted award for almost a decade? What makes 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:25.540 Orr's eight -year streak so insightful isn't 00:06:25.540 --> 00:06:28.240 just the sheer number of wins. It's that he fundamentally 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:31.620 forced the writers to change how they viewed 00:06:31.620 --> 00:06:34.399 the position. He rewrote the criteria. Completely. 00:06:34.500 --> 00:06:37.339 Before Orr, all -round ability heavily favored 00:06:37.339 --> 00:06:39.800 players who cleared the crease, threw heavy hits, 00:06:39.939 --> 00:06:42.680 and made safe outlet passes. Stay -at -home defensemen. 00:06:42.819 --> 00:06:45.360 Right. Or proved that controlling the offensive 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:47.839 zone and driving transition at an elite level 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:50.879 was just as vital to defense. He was putting 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:54.019 up 100 plus point seasons. Yeah. Including an 00:06:54.019 --> 00:06:58.060 astronomical 139 points in the 1970 -71 season. 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:02.300 139 points for a defenseman. It's absurd. He 00:07:02.300 --> 00:07:03.779 wasn't just joining the rush, he was leading 00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:06.680 it. But he also had the skating ability to recover 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:09.279 and defend his own net. He broke the curve. So 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:11.720 the writers couldn't ignore him even if they 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.339 wanted to? The writers essentially had no choice 00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:16.360 but to give him the first place vote every single 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:18.699 year because his impact on the game's outcome 00:07:18.699 --> 00:07:21.040 was undeniable. It effectively rendered all those 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:24.180 traditional voting biases moot. OK, so Orr is 00:07:24.180 --> 00:07:26.860 the obvious outlier with that consecutive streak. 00:07:27.540 --> 00:07:30.300 But if we look at sustained excellence over a 00:07:30.300 --> 00:07:32.980 whole career, who else managed to consistently 00:07:32.980 --> 00:07:35.480 beat that rigorous voting system and stay at 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:37.319 the top of the ballots? That is where you have 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:39.540 to examine the careers of guys like Doug Harvey 00:07:39.540 --> 00:07:42.279 and Nicholas Lidstrom. They both won the award 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:45.420 seven times. Seven times each. Incredible. But 00:07:45.420 --> 00:07:47.860 what is truly engaging about these two is how 00:07:47.860 --> 00:07:50.339 differently they achieved that sustained excellence. 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:53.500 Doug Harvey was a master of positional dominance 00:07:53.500 --> 00:07:56.079 in the 1950s and early 60s. He was with Montreal, 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:58.259 right? Yes. He won it back to back to back to 00:07:58.259 --> 00:08:01.139 back from 1954 to 1958 with the Montreal Canadiens. 00:08:01.300 --> 00:08:04.160 Took a one -year break, won two more with Montreal, 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:06.120 and then grabbed his seventh with the New York 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:09.540 Rangers in 1961 -62. So what was his secret? 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:12.379 Harvey controlled the tempo of the game. He was 00:08:12.379 --> 00:08:14.420 famous for literally just holding onto the puck 00:08:14.420 --> 00:08:16.399 to slow down the play. Just freezing the game. 00:08:16.579 --> 00:08:19.000 Exactly. He'd dictate the pace and frustrate 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:21.199 the opposition's forecheck. He commanded the 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:23.860 ice through sheer hockey IQ. And then you contrast 00:08:23.860 --> 00:08:26.839 that with Nicholas Lidstrom in the modern era, 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:29.959 who won all seven of his Norris trophies with 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:32.639 the Detroit Red Wings between 2001 and 2011. 00:08:33.740 --> 00:08:36.139 Lidstrom wasn't known for throwing massive hits 00:08:36.139 --> 00:08:38.639 or fighting, which used to be hallmarks of the 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.570 position. Exactly. Lindstrom earned the nickname 00:08:41.570 --> 00:08:44.590 the perfect human because his game was built 00:08:44.590 --> 00:08:47.990 on flawless geometry and anticipation. Geometry. 00:08:48.129 --> 00:08:51.370 I love that. It's true, though. He rarely had 00:08:51.370 --> 00:08:53.850 to throw a massive punishing hit because his 00:08:53.850 --> 00:08:55.850 stick positioning and gap control meant he was 00:08:55.850 --> 00:08:57.730 already intercepting the pass before the play 00:08:57.730 --> 00:08:59.429 even developed. He was just always in the right 00:08:59.429 --> 00:09:01.990 place. Always. He was a modern analytics darling 00:09:01.990 --> 00:09:05.190 before those metrics were even mainstream. Writers 00:09:05.190 --> 00:09:07.509 gave Lidstrom seven Norris trophies because his 00:09:07.509 --> 00:09:09.970 presence on the ice almost guaranteed a clean 00:09:09.970 --> 00:09:12.210 breakout and a suppression of high -danger scoring 00:09:12.210 --> 00:09:14.830 chances. So both Harvey and Lidstrom defined 00:09:14.830 --> 00:09:17.149 all -around ability for their respective eras. 00:09:17.149 --> 00:09:19.389 They just used entirely different toolkits. Sawed 00:09:19.389 --> 00:09:22.309 -on. We also have to mention Ray Bork. The Wikipedia 00:09:22.309 --> 00:09:24.970 article notes that Bork won the trophy five times, 00:09:25.049 --> 00:09:27.049 which is obviously phenomenal. Huge achievement. 00:09:27.309 --> 00:09:29.470 But it's the secondary step that really puts 00:09:29.470 --> 00:09:32.200 his career into perspective. In addition to those 00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:35.600 five wins, Bork was in the top three vote -getters 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:38.840 an additional 10 times. That is the crazy part. 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.320 10 more times. That means for 15 different seasons, 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:44.879 the collective hockey media considered Ray Bork 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.039 to be one of the three best defensemen on the 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:50.080 planet. The longevity and consistency required 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:52.799 to not age out of that top tier for a decade 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:55.539 and a half is staggering. If we connect this 00:09:55.539 --> 00:09:58.559 to the bigger picture. you start to see undeniable 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.519 patterns of franchise dominance. Oh, so? Well, 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:04.080 because Bobby Orr, Ray Bork, and later as Dino 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.980 Chara all played for the Boston Bruins. That 00:10:06.980 --> 00:10:09.620 single organization holds the record for the 00:10:09.620 --> 00:10:13.139 most Norris trophies in NHL history with 14 wins. 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:15.480 14 for one team. They practically built their 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:17.940 historical identity around elite defensive play. 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:20.039 And sitting right behind them in second place 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:23.279 are the Montreal Canadiens with 12 Norris trophies. 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:25.700 Also an insane number. Yeah, built on the legacies 00:10:25.700 --> 00:10:28.279 of Doug Harvey, Jacques Le Perriere, Larry Robinson, 00:10:28.659 --> 00:10:31.799 Chris Chelios, and later P .K. Subban. For massive 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:34.480 stretches of NHL history, the road to the Norris 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:37.419 Trophy ran squarely through those two original 00:10:37.419 --> 00:10:39.519 six franchises. It's really interesting you point 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.860 out the Bruins and Canadians' historical dominance 00:10:41.860 --> 00:10:44.799 because when you look at the modern era, that 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:48.000 centralization seems to be fracturing. It's definitely 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:50.340 spreading out. The standards set by guys like 00:10:50.340 --> 00:10:53.639 Orr, Harvey, and Lidstrom are still the measuring 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:55.480 sticks, but the geography has shifted. We're 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.100 seeing winners from all over the map. You have 00:10:58.100 --> 00:11:00.299 Kale McCarr of the Colorado Avalanche winning. 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.720 multiple times alongside Quinn Hughes taking 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:05.759 it for the Vancouver Canucks. Don't forget Eric 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:07.440 Carlson. Right, Eric Carlson, who has won it 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:10.419 three times, twice with Ottawa, and most recently 00:11:10.419 --> 00:11:13.179 with the San Jose Sharks in the 2022 -23 season. 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:15.720 The Carlson win in San Jose is actually a perfect 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:18.879 case study of how the PHWA voting criteria is 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:23.059 shifting. How so? In that 2022 -23 season, Carlson 00:11:23.059 --> 00:11:26.000 put up over 100 points. He became the first defenseman 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:29.519 to do that since Brian Leach in 1992. Offensively, 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:31.779 he was historically brilliant. But defensively, 00:11:31.779 --> 00:11:34.019 his underlying metrics and traditional stats 00:11:34.019 --> 00:11:36.980 like plus minus were heavily debated. It caused 00:11:36.980 --> 00:11:39.340 a massive rift among the voters. Right. There 00:11:39.340 --> 00:11:41.700 is an ongoing debate among fans today regarding 00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:44.820 exactly that. When a guy like Carlson wins with 00:11:44.820 --> 00:11:47.259 massive offensive numbers, but maybe lacks in 00:11:47.259 --> 00:11:50.279 his own defensive zone, how strictly do the voters 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.299 actually adhere to that all -round ability mandate 00:11:53.299 --> 00:11:56.200 today compared to the 1950s? It reveals that 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.919 the interpretation of all -round ability is fluid. 00:11:59.379 --> 00:12:02.639 In today's NHL, which emphasizes speed, puck 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:05.279 possession and transition, many voters believe 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:07.480 that the best defense is simply never letting 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:09.740 the other team have the puck. The best defense 00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:13.100 is a good offense. Exactly. If a defenseman is 00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:15.759 generating so much offense that the puck is constantly 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:18.200 in the opponent's zone, it is viewed by many 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:20.779 as a highly effective form of defense. So the 00:12:20.779 --> 00:12:22.700 voters are changing their minds on what defense 00:12:22.700 --> 00:12:25.379 even is. The Carlson vote showed that historical 00:12:25.379 --> 00:12:27.919 traditionalists who demand heavy corner battling 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:30.639 and crease clearing are slowly being outnumbered 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:32.960 by voters who prioritize transition metrics and 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.690 offensive generation from the blue line. Here's 00:12:35.690 --> 00:12:38.529 where it gets really interesting, because as 00:12:38.529 --> 00:12:41.549 nuanced as the Norris Trophy voting is, there 00:12:41.549 --> 00:12:44.730 is an even higher, more elusive tier of greatness 00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:47.049 that we have to discuss. Oh, yeah. The double. 00:12:47.149 --> 00:12:49.370 I'm talking about the crossover between the Norris 00:12:49.370 --> 00:12:52.190 Trophy and the Hart Memorial Trophy. Winning 00:12:52.190 --> 00:12:54.870 the Hart as a blue liner is almost unthinkable. 00:12:54.950 --> 00:12:57.669 Very rare. Given the writer's historical bias 00:12:57.669 --> 00:13:00.830 toward high scoring forwards for the MVP, a defenseman 00:13:00.830 --> 00:13:03.029 taking home both the Norris and the Hart in the 00:13:03.029 --> 00:13:06.399 exact same year. a completely transcendent season. 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:09.100 In the entire history of the Norris Trophy dating 00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:12.460 back to 1953, only two players have ever pulled 00:13:12.460 --> 00:13:14.879 off that dual crown. Two players across seven 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:16.960 decades of hockey. Naturally, the first name 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.559 on that list is Bobby Orr. Of course. During 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:21.419 his eight -year streak of winning the Norris, 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.740 he also captured the Hart Trophy three separate 00:13:23.740 --> 00:13:27.440 times. In the 69 -70 season, the 70 -71 season, 00:13:27.620 --> 00:13:31.320 and the 71 -72 season. He was so far ahead of 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:33.480 his peers that he wasn't just the best defenseman, 00:13:33.580 --> 00:13:36.299 he was undeniably the most valuable asset in 00:13:36.299 --> 00:13:38.419 the entire sport. Which is saying something in 00:13:38.419 --> 00:13:41.360 that era. But who was the second player? It took 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.960 almost 30 years for it to happen again. In the 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:47.360 1999 -2000 season, Chris Pronger of the St. Louis 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:51.639 Blues put together a season so suffocating that 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:54.279 the writers awarded him both the Norris and the 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:57.700 Hart. Or and Pronger. That is the entire list. 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.639 And Pronger's win is fascinating because it came 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.440 during the heart of the dead puck era, a time 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:06.600 when scoring was heavily suppressed. across the 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:09.539 league. Pronger's dual crown season is the antithesis 00:14:09.539 --> 00:14:12.440 of Bobby Orr's offensive revelation, yet it was 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:14.899 equally dominant in its own context. How did 00:14:14.899 --> 00:14:17.000 Pronger do it without the points? Well, Pronger 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:19.259 wasn't putting up 100 points. Instead, he was 00:14:19.259 --> 00:14:21.360 playing nearly 30 minutes a night, acting as 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:23.940 an absolute physical force and shutting down 00:14:23.940 --> 00:14:26.460 the opposing team's top forwards shift after 00:14:26.460 --> 00:14:28.539 shift. Just a wall. He commanded the defensive 00:14:28.539 --> 00:14:31.000 zone so thoroughly that the writers recognized 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.460 his impact was just as valuable as a 50 -goal 00:14:33.460 --> 00:14:35.940 scorer. And that leads us to a highly specific 00:14:35.940 --> 00:14:38.039 rule of thumb that emerges from the statistics 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:42.860 of these two awards. As of 2025, no defenseman 00:14:42.860 --> 00:14:45.580 has ever won the Hart Trophy without also winning 00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:48.000 the Norris Trophy in that same season, at least 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:50.179 since the Norris was introduced. That makes logical 00:14:50.179 --> 00:14:52.419 sense, though. If you are a defenseman having 00:14:52.419 --> 00:14:55.399 a season spectacular enough to be voted the most 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:58.039 valuable player in the league, then by definition, 00:14:58.059 --> 00:15:00.259 you have to be the best defenseman in the league 00:15:00.259 --> 00:15:03.000 that year. Exactly. The writers have never split 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.480 their logic. They have never looked at the ballots 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:07.639 and said, well, this defenseman is the MVP, but 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:10.200 this other guy gets the Norris. It's a package 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:12.759 deal. Precisely. Although we should note that 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:16.019 prior to 1953, before the Norris even existed, 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:19.320 defensemen did win the Hart. Oh, right. Legends 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.279 like Herb Gardner, Babe Seabird, Ebby Goodfellow, 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:25.440 Tommy Anderson, and Babe Pratt all took home 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:28.799 MVP honors. And you have to highlight Eddie Shore 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:31.360 of the Boston Bruins, who won the Hart trophy 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:34.799 four times in the 1930s. Four MVPs for a defenseman. 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:37.460 Had the Norris existed during his era, Shore 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:39.659 would undoubtedly have a massive collection of 00:15:39.659 --> 00:15:42.590 them. That history. Really underscores the point 00:15:42.590 --> 00:15:44.509 I made at the very beginning of this deep dive. 00:15:44.610 --> 00:15:47.590 Let's bring that back around because the Hall 00:15:47.590 --> 00:15:50.429 of Fame guarantee attached to this award is unparalleled 00:15:50.429 --> 00:15:52.889 in professional sports. It's the ultimate predictor. 00:15:52.929 --> 00:15:56.309 If you look at the list of retired eligible players 00:15:56.309 --> 00:15:58.809 who have won the James Norris Memorial Trophy. 00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:01.559 Every single one of them has been inducted into 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:03.899 the Hockey Hall of Fame, save for exactly two 00:16:03.899 --> 00:16:06.320 players. The two exceptions. Randy Carlisle, 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:09.080 who won it with Pittsburgh in the 1980 -81 season, 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.100 and P .K. Saban, who won it with Montreal in 00:16:12.100 --> 00:16:15.100 the 2012 -13 season. The exceptions of Carlisle 00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:17.539 and Saban actually add important context to what 00:16:17.539 --> 00:16:19.700 the voters value long term. Why are they the 00:16:19.700 --> 00:16:22.639 exceptions? Carlisle had one massive Norse winning 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.080 season, whereas offensive numbers spiked. But 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.299 he didn't sustain that elite top -tier production 00:16:28.299 --> 00:16:30.460 for the rest of his career. Ah, so it was a peak 00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:32.899 versus longevity issue. Exactly. And Sibban was 00:16:32.899 --> 00:16:35.500 an incredibly dynamic and brilliant player who 00:16:35.500 --> 00:16:38.960 had a very high peak. But injuries and a changing 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:41.759 game shortened his window of absolute dominance 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.480 compared to the guys who put in 15 years at the 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:46.740 top. The Hall of Fame wants a decade of dominance. 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:49.039 Right. The Hall of Fame voters look for that 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.500 sustained, decade -long excellence. But aside 00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:55.879 from those two... The Norris has a 100 % success 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.059 rate in predicting Hall of Famers. That's a staggering 00:16:59.059 --> 00:17:01.500 hit rate. Obviously, active players like McCarr, 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:04.539 Hughes, Carlson, Roman Josie, and Anna Fox aren't 00:17:04.539 --> 00:17:07.440 eligible yet. But for the retired guys, the historical 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:10.500 record is ironclad. So what does this all mean 00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:13.380 when we compile the history of James E. Norris, 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:17.880 the rigorous 10 -7, 5 -3 -1 voting system, the 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:20.480 back -to -back records of guys like Orr and Lidstrom 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.900 and the MVP crossovers? What is the real takeaway 00:17:23.900 --> 00:17:26.539 for you as a hockey fan? Ultimately, it means 00:17:26.539 --> 00:17:28.619 that the James Norris Memorial Trophy operates 00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:31.519 as the ultimate filter for greatness. It separates 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:33.819 the highly skilled from the historically significant. 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:36.079 I like that. When the Professional Hockey Writers 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.420 Association cast their ballots, they were actively 00:17:38.420 --> 00:17:41.759 curating the pantheon of the sport. The criteria 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:44.640 of greatest all -around ability demands a level 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:46.940 of completeness that exposes any weakness in 00:17:46.940 --> 00:17:49.240 a player's game. There's nowhere to hide. Exactly. 00:17:49.819 --> 00:17:52.990 To win it? A defenseman has to transcend their 00:17:52.990 --> 00:17:56.529 own system, overcome voter biases, and prove 00:17:56.529 --> 00:17:58.690 that they can influence the outcome of the game 00:17:58.690 --> 00:18:02.380 in all 200 feet of the ice rink. It is the definitive 00:18:02.380 --> 00:18:05.720 stamp of a legendary career. Separates the highly 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:08.359 skilled from the historically significant. Yeah. 00:18:08.420 --> 00:18:11.099 That perfectly encapsulates why this specific 00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:14.000 piece of silver hardware is so revered. It's 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.099 the pinnacle. So the next time you turn on a 00:18:16.099 --> 00:18:19.180 modern NHL game and you are watching a star defenseman 00:18:19.180 --> 00:18:22.099 walk the blue line, execute a flawless breakout 00:18:22.099 --> 00:18:25.680 pass, or shut down a two -on -one rush, you are 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:27.960 equipped with the context of what they are actually 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:30.279 chasing. You see the history behind it. You understand 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:46.440 the math. This raises an important question, 00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:48.200 though, and it's something fascinating to track 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:50.380 as the sport continues to evolve over the next 00:18:50.380 --> 00:18:52.319 decade. What's the question? The foundational 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:54.599 text of the award still demands the greatest 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:57.369 all -round ability. But as we discuss with the 00:18:57.369 --> 00:18:59.950 modern winners, the geometry and speed of the 00:18:59.950 --> 00:19:02.690 NHL are dramatically different now. Defensemen 00:19:02.690 --> 00:19:05.329 are frequently expected to act as a fourth forward, 00:19:05.589 --> 00:19:08.329 seamlessly activating into the offensive zone. 00:19:08.490 --> 00:19:11.190 Right. The game is just faster. So as the NHL 00:19:11.190 --> 00:19:13.589 continues to prioritize speed and transition 00:19:13.589 --> 00:19:17.980 over a heavy physical stationary defense. How 00:19:17.980 --> 00:19:21.960 will the voters of 2030 or 2040 redefine what 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:24.700 all -round ability truly entails? That's a great 00:19:24.700 --> 00:19:26.960 point. Will the perfect Norris -winning defenseman 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.279 of tomorrow look more like a roving center than 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:32.160 a traditional blue liner? The game never stops 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.759 changing. which means the criteria will have 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:37.279 to constantly adapt to the realities of the ice. 00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:39.500 That is such a provocative thought to leave you 00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:41.819 with. How does the definition of defensive greatness 00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:44.700 change when the concept of defense itself is 00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:47.180 shifting toward pure puck possession? It's going 00:19:47.180 --> 00:19:49.119 to be a while to watch. Keep an eye on that the 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:51.119 next time you're watching your favorite team's 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:53.859 top pairing go to work. Thank you so much for 00:19:53.859 --> 00:19:56.200 joining us on this deep dive into the James Norris 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:58.319 Memorial Trophy. We love breaking down these 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:00.599 sources to find the mechanics and the history 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:03.180 driving the sports we watch every day. We hope 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:05.359 this gave you a brilliant shortcut to understanding 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:07.700 the minds of the voters and the legacies of the 00:20:07.700 --> 00:20:10.599 players on the ice. Keep asking those big questions. 00:20:10.619 --> 00:20:13.240 Keep looking for those aha moments. And we'll 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.160 catch you on the next deep dive.