WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.419 Okay, so I want you to picture a Venn diagram 00:00:03.419 --> 00:00:05.320 in your head. Okay, I'm picturing. Right, so 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:07.879 in the first circle you have hardcore theoretical 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:10.500 physics, and we're talking thermodynamics, quantum 00:00:10.500 --> 00:00:12.939 mechanics, the literal laws of the universe. 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:15.679 That is a heavy first circle. Yeah, and then 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:18.280 in the second circle you have secular international 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:22.000 law, you know, constitutions, human rights, the 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:24.399 actual nuts and bolts of how a democracy functions. 00:00:24.899 --> 00:00:27.300 Right. And in the third circle, and this is really 00:00:27.300 --> 00:00:30.160 where it gets wild, you have high -ranking Islamic 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:33.880 theology. We are talking about the kind of religious 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:37.560 pedigree that makes you essentially royalty in 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:39.320 the Shia world. I mean, honestly, it sounds like 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:40.979 you just described three completely different 00:00:40.979 --> 00:00:42.460 people. Sounds like a whole committee, right? 00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:45.939 But today, we're gonna dive into the life of 00:00:45.939 --> 00:00:49.179 one man who somehow sits right in that tiny sliver 00:00:49.179 --> 00:00:52.179 where all three of those circles overlap. We 00:00:52.179 --> 00:00:54.939 are unpacking the life and the strategy of Hassan 00:00:54.939 --> 00:00:57.479 Shariat Madari. And... If you're someone who 00:00:57.479 --> 00:01:00.299 follows Middle Eastern history or Iranian politics, 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:03.179 that name probably rings a bell. He is currently 00:01:03.179 --> 00:01:05.379 one of the most prominent opposition figures 00:01:05.379 --> 00:01:08.980 in exile today. But his backstory is really what 00:01:08.980 --> 00:01:11.000 makes him such an incredibly fascinating case 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:13.299 study for us. It really is. Because usually when 00:01:13.299 --> 00:01:15.480 we talk about opposition leaders, they kind of 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.750 fit a specific type, don't they? It's the. the 00:01:18.750 --> 00:01:21.989 student radical or maybe a defected general or 00:01:21.989 --> 00:01:23.849 an activist writer. Exactly. There's a mold. 00:01:24.150 --> 00:01:26.590 Right. But Shariaat Madari is the son of a grand 00:01:26.590 --> 00:01:28.989 ayatollah who just decided to become a physicist 00:01:28.989 --> 00:01:31.989 and then a lawyer and is now actively trying 00:01:31.989 --> 00:01:36.069 to engineer a secular democracy for Iran from 00:01:36.069 --> 00:01:38.390 his home base in Germany. He really represents 00:01:38.390 --> 00:01:41.590 this road not taken for the Iranian revolution 00:01:41.590 --> 00:01:43.950 because I think we tend to look back at 1979 00:01:43.950 --> 00:01:47.030 and just assume that the theocracy that we see 00:01:47.030 --> 00:01:49.629 today was just inevitable. But when you actually 00:01:49.629 --> 00:01:52.170 dig into Shariat Madari's career, you see this 00:01:52.170 --> 00:01:55.170 completely different vision that was absolutely 00:01:55.170 --> 00:01:57.890 present right from the start. He spent the last 00:01:57.890 --> 00:02:01.609 40 years trying to bridge this massive gap between 00:02:01.609 --> 00:02:05.150 traditional theology and modern democratic values. 00:02:05.349 --> 00:02:07.510 And that is exactly our mission for this deep 00:02:07.510 --> 00:02:10.189 dive. We are going straight into the biographical 00:02:10.189 --> 00:02:12.310 records, the political history of the revolution 00:02:12.310 --> 00:02:15.090 and the various charters he's written over the 00:02:15.090 --> 00:02:17.949 decades to figure out how does a man born into 00:02:17.949 --> 00:02:21.229 religious royalty end up leading the call for 00:02:21.229 --> 00:02:24.039 a secular republic? And does his strategy of 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:26.460 non -violent transition actually stand a chance 00:02:26.460 --> 00:02:29.120 against a regime that is, well, very clearly 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.860 not afraid to use force. Right. But before we 00:02:31.860 --> 00:02:33.520 get totally into the weeds here, I do want to 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:35.620 make a quick note for you listening. We are pulling 00:02:35.620 --> 00:02:37.879 all of this from historical documents and political 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:40.879 text, and obviously this involves highly charged 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:43.460 political movements. Very charged. Yeah, so just 00:02:43.460 --> 00:02:46.419 a reminder that we are simply here to impartially 00:02:46.419 --> 00:02:48.580 report on the content provided in these sources. 00:02:49.180 --> 00:02:51.419 We aren't endorsing any viewpoints left -wing 00:02:51.419 --> 00:02:53.979 or right -wing. We're just trying to convey the 00:02:53.979 --> 00:02:57.020 ideas exactly as they exist in the original material. 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:00.599 Absolutely. It's all about unpacking the history 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:03.960 and the strategy objectively. So should we rewind 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:06.280 to the very beginning? Let's do it. Because to 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:08.240 really understand Hassan, you have to understand 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:10.360 the shadow he was born under. He was born in 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:14.919 Tabriz, Iran, in May of 1947. And his father 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:17.379 was not just, you know, a local preacher. No, 00:03:17.419 --> 00:03:20.620 far from it. Right. His father was Grand Ayatollah 00:03:20.620 --> 00:03:23.659 Muhammad Kazim Shariat Madari. And for anyone 00:03:23.659 --> 00:03:26.620 who isn't super deep into the hierarchy of Shia 00:03:26.620 --> 00:03:30.479 Islam, A grand ayatollah or a marja is literally 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:32.780 the top of the pyramid. It translates to source 00:03:32.780 --> 00:03:35.240 of emulation. So is that like a cardinal in the 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:37.569 Catholic Church? Or is it higher than that? Oh, 00:03:37.629 --> 00:03:39.270 it's bigger than that. Think about it this way. 00:03:39.270 --> 00:03:41.409 In the Catholic Church, you have one pope, right? 00:03:41.830 --> 00:03:44.490 But in Shia Islam, there are a handful of grand 00:03:44.490 --> 00:03:47.550 ayatollahs at any given time, and believers actually 00:03:47.550 --> 00:03:49.870 choose which one they want to follow. Yeah, and 00:03:49.870 --> 00:03:53.229 Hassan's father had millions of followers, particularly 00:03:53.229 --> 00:03:56.889 in the Azerbaijan region of Iran. He was an absolute 00:03:56.889 --> 00:03:59.050 heavyweight in the religious establishment. OK, 00:03:59.129 --> 00:04:01.949 so Hassan is born into this environment. He's 00:04:01.949 --> 00:04:04.449 the son of a pope, essentially. You would just 00:04:04.449 --> 00:04:06.629 naturally assume his entire path is paid for 00:04:06.629 --> 00:04:08.810 him. You go to the seminary, you put on the robes, 00:04:08.909 --> 00:04:10.969 you inherit the family influence. And he does 00:04:10.969 --> 00:04:13.490 start down that path. He goes to the comm seminary. 00:04:13.550 --> 00:04:15.969 He studies theology and philosophy. He learns 00:04:15.969 --> 00:04:18.370 the highly specific language of the clergy. Right. 00:04:18.670 --> 00:04:21.670 But then he takes this incredibly sharp left 00:04:21.670 --> 00:04:25.029 turn. He heads to Ariemer University, which is 00:04:25.029 --> 00:04:28.310 now Sharif University, basically the MIT of Iran. 00:04:28.470 --> 00:04:31.730 And he gets a master's degree in physics. See, 00:04:31.730 --> 00:04:34.209 I have to stop you there. Because physics, I 00:04:34.209 --> 00:04:36.730 mean, I totally get wanting a well -rounded education, 00:04:37.009 --> 00:04:39.389 but that just seems so incredibly specific. Why 00:04:39.389 --> 00:04:41.470 on earth does a potential religious leader need 00:04:41.470 --> 00:04:44.370 to understand fluid dynamics or quantum mechanics? 00:04:44.670 --> 00:04:46.569 It's a great question, and I really think it 00:04:46.569 --> 00:04:49.470 speaks to how his mind works. Theology is heavily 00:04:49.470 --> 00:04:51.910 about interpretation, tradition, and morality. 00:04:52.689 --> 00:04:55.689 But physics... Physics is about systems. Right, 00:04:55.829 --> 00:04:58.509 cause and effect. Exactly. It's about laws that 00:04:58.509 --> 00:05:01.089 simply cannot be broken, no matter how much you 00:05:01.089 --> 00:05:03.930 might pray for them to be. And that scientific 00:05:03.930 --> 00:05:06.629 analytical training is so crucial to understanding 00:05:06.629 --> 00:05:08.990 his political strategy later on. Oh, so. Because 00:05:08.990 --> 00:05:12.550 he looks at society as a system. If the foundational 00:05:12.550 --> 00:05:15.490 structure of a building is unstable, it is going 00:05:15.490 --> 00:05:17.990 to collapse. It's essentially an engineering 00:05:17.990 --> 00:05:20.730 mindset, but applied to the governance of a country. 00:05:20.990 --> 00:05:22.750 That makes a lot of sense. And he doesn't even 00:05:22.750 --> 00:05:25.170 stop there with the degrees. He then goes and 00:05:25.170 --> 00:05:27.149 gets a master's in law from the University of 00:05:27.149 --> 00:05:29.490 Tehran. Right. So now, if you look at his toolkit, 00:05:29.949 --> 00:05:32.189 he understands the moral code through theology, 00:05:32.629 --> 00:05:35.509 the physical code through science, and the social 00:05:35.509 --> 00:05:38.029 code through secular law. It is a combination 00:05:38.029 --> 00:05:41.189 that is almost unheard of. It really is. But 00:05:41.189 --> 00:05:43.589 there is one other thing on his resume from the 00:05:43.589 --> 00:05:47.230 1970s that honestly I found completely baffling 00:05:47.230 --> 00:05:50.420 at first glance. The editing job. Yes, between 00:05:50.420 --> 00:05:54.319 1973 and 1980, while he's busy accumulating all 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:57.300 these intense high -level degrees, he's working 00:05:57.300 --> 00:06:00.860 as an editor. But he isn't editing a prestigious 00:06:00.860 --> 00:06:03.600 law review or a theoretical physics journal. 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:06.079 He's the chief editor of two magazines called 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.240 Payami Shadi and Nasal Now. Which, for our listeners, 00:06:09.660 --> 00:06:12.220 are monthly magazines specifically for children 00:06:12.220 --> 00:06:14.360 and youth. Right. I mean, he's the son of Grand 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:16.360 Ayatollah, he's a physicist, a legal scholar, 00:06:16.740 --> 00:06:19.279 and he's running a kids magazine. Was this just 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:21.480 a hobby for him? I really don't think so. I think 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.199 it was highly strategic, whether he fully realized 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:26.620 it at the time or not. Just think about the unique 00:06:26.620 --> 00:06:28.699 challenge of writing for children. You can't 00:06:28.699 --> 00:06:31.610 use jargon. Exactly. You absolutely cannot hide 00:06:31.610 --> 00:06:34.829 behind complex academic language. You can't use 00:06:34.829 --> 00:06:37.569 massive theological words or dense legal terms. 00:06:37.649 --> 00:06:40.110 You have to take a really complex moral lesson 00:06:40.110 --> 00:06:43.550 or a big idea and distill it down to its absolute 00:06:43.550 --> 00:06:46.029 bare essence. And it has to be engaging or they 00:06:46.029 --> 00:06:48.009 just won't read it. Right. It taught him how 00:06:48.009 --> 00:06:51.029 to communicate incredibly broad structural ideas 00:06:51.029 --> 00:06:54.629 to a mass audience in a way that resonates. And 00:06:54.629 --> 00:06:57.209 that specific skill became a matter of life and 00:06:57.209 --> 00:07:00.980 death very, very quickly. Because we hit 1979 00:07:00.980 --> 00:07:03.800 the Iranian Revolution happens the Shah's overthrow 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:06.560 and the monarchy is totally gone and from what 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:09.480 the historical records show Initially, this wasn't 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:11.500 guaranteed to become a theocratic dictatorship. 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:14.500 Was it there was a huge scramble for power It 00:07:14.500 --> 00:07:17.899 was a chaotic vacuum different factions everywhere 00:07:17.899 --> 00:07:20.540 and Hassan Sharif Madari steps right into the 00:07:20.540 --> 00:07:23.300 arena He co -founds the Muslim People's Republic 00:07:23.300 --> 00:07:27.019 Party or the NPRP now just based on that name 00:07:27.019 --> 00:07:29.300 the Muslim People's Republic It kind of sounds 00:07:29.300 --> 00:07:31.740 like he's on the exact same side as the Islamists 00:07:31.740 --> 00:07:33.480 who eventually took total control. It sounds 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:35.439 similar on the surface, but the nuance there 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:37.980 is everything. The NPRP was a massive party. 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:40.259 They had the backing of his father's millions 00:07:40.259 --> 00:07:43.180 of followers. And their vision was an Islamic 00:07:43.180 --> 00:07:45.680 state in terms of its cultural identity, but 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:48.300 a democratic state in terms of its actual political 00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:50.620 structure. Oh, I see. Yeah. They wanted a system 00:07:50.620 --> 00:07:52.759 where different political parties could actually 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:55.779 compete, where minorities had guaranteed rights, 00:07:55.860 --> 00:07:59.220 where the power wasn't centralized. in one unelected 00:07:59.220 --> 00:08:02.339 body. So they basically wanted a republic that 00:08:02.339 --> 00:08:05.480 just happened to be Muslim rather than a theocracy 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:07.740 that was only pretending to be a republic. That 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:10.079 is a perfect way to put it. And this right here 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:12.649 brings us to the ultimate collision point. This 00:08:12.649 --> 00:08:15.129 is the moment the road not taken was violently 00:08:15.129 --> 00:08:18.670 blocked off. And it all revolves around one specific 00:08:18.670 --> 00:08:21.529 theological and political concept called valayat 00:08:21.529 --> 00:08:24.589 -faki. OK, let's unpack valayat -faki because 00:08:24.589 --> 00:08:26.529 you see this term thrown around a lot in the 00:08:26.529 --> 00:08:29.050 sources, but I really want to know what it actually 00:08:29.050 --> 00:08:33.269 meant on the ground back in 1979. Sure. So valayat 00:08:33.269 --> 00:08:36.350 -faki translates to guardianship of the Islamic 00:08:36.350 --> 00:08:39.230 jurist. Now, traditionally, and this is exactly 00:08:39.230 --> 00:08:41.860 how Hassan's father, the Grand Ayatollah, viewed 00:08:41.860 --> 00:08:44.840 it, it simply meant that the clergy had a spiritual 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:46.879 role in protecting the faith and looking out 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:49.120 for the most vulnerable people in society. Like 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:51.080 charity work, looking after widows and orphans. 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.100 Exactly. It was a spiritual and social guardianship. 00:08:54.460 --> 00:08:57.200 Okay, that sounds fairly standard for most religious 00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:59.860 hierarchies. Right, but Ayatollah Khomeini, who 00:08:59.860 --> 00:09:02.139 emerged as the primary leader of the revolution, 00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:05.259 completely changed the definition. He argued 00:09:05.259 --> 00:09:07.580 that it meant the jurist, which was himself, 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:10.990 should have absolute supreme political authority 00:09:10.990 --> 00:09:14.350 over the entire state. Wow. Yeah. He was saying 00:09:14.350 --> 00:09:16.470 the top cleric should be the commander in chief 00:09:16.470 --> 00:09:18.929 of the armed forces, the absolute head of the 00:09:18.929 --> 00:09:22.450 judiciary, and have the final veto power on every 00:09:22.450 --> 00:09:25.570 single law. So he basically took a spiritual 00:09:25.570 --> 00:09:28.330 pastoral role and turned himself into a king 00:09:28.330 --> 00:09:31.649 in clerical robes. Precisely. And Hassan Shariat 00:09:31.649 --> 00:09:35.090 Madari and the NPRP looked at this new constitution 00:09:35.090 --> 00:09:37.129 that Khomeini was writing. They saw this clause 00:09:37.129 --> 00:09:39.669 and they said, absolutely not. They recognized 00:09:39.669 --> 00:09:41.830 it immediately for what it was the blueprint 00:09:41.830 --> 00:09:43.830 for a dictatorship. And this wasn't just some 00:09:43.830 --> 00:09:46.549 polite academic disagreement in a debating society 00:09:46.549 --> 00:09:48.830 somewhere, was it? Not at all. And this is a 00:09:48.830 --> 00:09:50.669 part of the history that often gets completely 00:09:50.669 --> 00:09:54.950 erased. In late 1979 and early 1980, the supporters 00:09:54.950 --> 00:09:57.529 of Shariat Madari's father actually rose up. 00:09:57.730 --> 00:10:00.230 Yes, in Tabriz, they took over the radio station. 00:10:00.370 --> 00:10:02.269 They occupied government buildings. There were 00:10:02.269 --> 00:10:04.690 literal tanks in the streets. It was a genuine 00:10:04.690 --> 00:10:08.090 massive counterrevolution against this emerging 00:10:08.090 --> 00:10:10.789 tyranny. But they didn't win. No, they were crushed. 00:10:11.269 --> 00:10:13.570 The new regime sent in the Islamic Revolutionary 00:10:13.570 --> 00:10:16.309 Guard Corps and the Basij militia. They didn't 00:10:16.309 --> 00:10:18.889 just defeat the NPRP politically, they destroyed 00:10:18.889 --> 00:10:21.929 it violently. And then they went after the family 00:10:21.929 --> 00:10:23.690 directly. And this is the part of the source 00:10:23.690 --> 00:10:26.590 material that is just truly shocking to me, especially 00:10:26.590 --> 00:10:29.210 given this strict religious hierarchy we talked 00:10:29.210 --> 00:10:32.210 about. They actually placed Hassan's father, 00:10:32.990 --> 00:10:35.090 a sitting Grand Ayatollah, under house arrest. 00:10:35.269 --> 00:10:37.929 Which was a massive, unthinkable taboo. You just 00:10:37.929 --> 00:10:41.029 do not lock up a Marja. But by doing that... 00:10:40.809 --> 00:10:43.629 Khomeini sent a chilling, unmistakable message 00:10:43.629 --> 00:10:47.690 to everyone else in Iran. Nobody is safe. Exactly. 00:10:47.929 --> 00:10:49.870 If he can lock up a grand ayatollah, he can do 00:10:49.870 --> 00:10:52.289 anything to anyone. Hassan's father eventually 00:10:52.289 --> 00:10:55.009 died while under house arrest. He was intentionally 00:10:55.009 --> 00:10:57.809 denied proper medical care. It was a very slow, 00:10:57.870 --> 00:11:00.809 very public humiliation. That is brutal. And 00:11:00.809 --> 00:11:02.610 what about Hassan? What happens to him at this 00:11:02.610 --> 00:11:05.529 point? He had to run. He was forced into exile. 00:11:05.850 --> 00:11:08.669 And that is really where the first major chapter 00:11:08.669 --> 00:11:12.269 of his life ends. That inclusive democratic vision 00:11:12.269 --> 00:11:15.679 of the revolution was dead. So now... You have 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.559 a man in his 30s. He has completely lost his 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:20.840 country. His father is a political prisoner. 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:23.220 His political party has been banned and crushed. 00:11:23.580 --> 00:11:26.500 He's living in exile in Europe. I feel like most 00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:28.559 people in that exact situation would just, you 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.080 know, check out. Absolutely. Like just go teach 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:32.899 physics at some quiet university in Germany, 00:11:33.299 --> 00:11:35.480 write a bitter memoir and call it a day. But 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:38.169 he doesn't do that. No, he doesn't. He regroups. 00:11:38.190 --> 00:11:39.970 And this is where we really start to see that 00:11:39.970 --> 00:11:42.490 physicist brain kicking into gear again. He doesn't 00:11:42.490 --> 00:11:44.490 just want to sit around and be angry. He wants 00:11:44.490 --> 00:11:46.769 to actually solve the structural problem. He 00:11:46.769 --> 00:11:49.330 starts asking two questions. Why did we lose? 00:11:49.610 --> 00:11:51.730 And how do we build a system that can effectively 00:11:51.730 --> 00:11:54.370 replace this regime? So how does his strategy 00:11:54.370 --> 00:11:56.450 evolve from there? Because he has been at this 00:11:56.450 --> 00:11:59.679 for over 40 years now. Well, in the 1980s, it 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:02.360 was mostly about sheer survival and rallying 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:05.440 the immediate opposition forces. He helped form 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:09.039 the National Republicans of Iran in 1983, trying 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.919 to unite secular and nationalist groups. But 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:14.820 the real intellectual shift, his major aha moment, 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:18.440 comes a bit later on. Let's jump ahead to 2004. 00:12:18.740 --> 00:12:22.320 OK, 2004. This is when he becomes a founding 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.309 member of the United Republicans of Iran. or 00:12:25.309 --> 00:12:27.889 the URI. Right. And if you actually read their 00:12:27.889 --> 00:12:30.909 platform from that time, there is a very specific, 00:12:31.090 --> 00:12:34.470 deliberate pivot in his language. They stop arguing 00:12:34.470 --> 00:12:37.169 about interpretations of Islamic law entirely, 00:12:37.169 --> 00:12:39.909 and they start arguing for a republic based strictly 00:12:39.909 --> 00:12:42.009 on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 00:12:42.309 --> 00:12:43.990 Why is that shift so important, though? Is it 00:12:43.990 --> 00:12:46.830 just a rebranding exercise? It is highly strategic. 00:12:46.929 --> 00:12:48.730 Think about it. If you argue with a theocracy 00:12:48.730 --> 00:12:50.909 about theology, you're going to lose. Because 00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:53.279 they have the power. Right. They hold the microphone. 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:55.519 They control the courts. They can always find 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:58.820 some obscure scripture to justify their power. 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:01.539 But by pivoting to the Universal Declaration 00:13:01.539 --> 00:13:04.139 of Human Rights, Shariat Madari is purposefully 00:13:04.139 --> 00:13:06.740 stacking outside of their framework. He's saying, 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:09.679 we are not playing your game anymore. We are 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:13.080 operating on global universal standards. It also 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:15.220 seems like a really smart way to build a much 00:13:15.220 --> 00:13:18.230 bigger team. Because if you base your opposition 00:13:18.230 --> 00:13:21.950 movement solely on Islamic reform, you are going 00:13:21.950 --> 00:13:24.169 to alienate all the secularists. Exactly. And 00:13:24.169 --> 00:13:26.129 if you base it purely on hardline secularism, 00:13:26.309 --> 00:13:29.309 you alienate the religious folks. But human rights, 00:13:29.450 --> 00:13:31.309 that's a concept that covers everyone. That's 00:13:31.309 --> 00:13:33.789 the Big Tent approach. You need everyone. And 00:13:33.789 --> 00:13:36.490 he pairs this broad ideology with a very strict 00:13:36.490 --> 00:13:39.070 methodology, which is nonviolent civil resistance. 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:41.620 I have to play devil's advocate here for a second. 00:13:42.220 --> 00:13:44.500 Nonviolence sounds incredibly noble. It sounds 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:46.259 great when you're giving a seminar in Berlin. 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:49.539 But when you are dealing with a regime that routinely 00:13:49.539 --> 00:13:52.259 shoots protesters in the street, isn't strict 00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:56.059 nonviolence a little bit naive? That is the number 00:13:56.059 --> 00:13:59.700 one criticism he faces constantly. But... Sharia 00:13:59.700 --> 00:14:01.879 Menare would argue, and he actually uses a lot 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:04.679 of historical data to back this up, that violent 00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:07.480 revolutions almost always just replace one dictatorship 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:10.200 with another dictatorship. Right. It's that physics 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:13.360 concept coming back. Violent energy is inherently 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.580 unstable. If you want a stable lasting democracy, 00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:18.620 you have to build it through sustained civil 00:14:18.620 --> 00:14:22.460 pressure, strikes, boycotts, civil disobedience. 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:24.620 You have to build the democratic institutions 00:14:24.620 --> 00:14:28.120 before you actually take power, not after. Speaking 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:30.090 of building those institutions. I absolutely 00:14:30.090 --> 00:14:32.809 love this detail from the sources about his work 00:14:32.809 --> 00:14:35.690 with Tavana. Oh, yes. So Tavana is an e -learning 00:14:35.690 --> 00:14:38.730 institute for Iranian civil society. And in June 00:14:38.730 --> 00:14:41.750 of 2013, he's literally conducting online seminars 00:14:41.750 --> 00:14:44.250 for them. He is. And do you remember the topic 00:14:44.250 --> 00:14:46.830 of the course he taught? Yeah, it was on electoral 00:14:46.830 --> 00:14:49.110 integrity and democratic transitions. Right. 00:14:49.389 --> 00:14:51.590 It honestly sounds like he is trying to train 00:14:51.590 --> 00:14:55.029 an entire generation of bureaucrats and civil 00:14:55.029 --> 00:14:57.629 servants for a government that doesn't even exist 00:14:57.629 --> 00:14:59.809 yet. But that is exactly what he's doing. He 00:14:59.809 --> 00:15:02.730 is treating the revolution like a massive engineering 00:15:02.730 --> 00:15:05.549 project. He's teaching young people inside Iran. 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:08.980 How do you actually monitor a ballot box? How 00:15:08.980 --> 00:15:11.740 do you officially document voter fraud? How do 00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:14.519 you organize a local political coalition without 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.440 getting arrested? Wow. He's trying to professionalize 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.460 the opposition because his logic is if the regime 00:15:20.460 --> 00:15:23.200 does suddenly fall and nobody knows how to actually 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:25.679 run a municipality or count a vote, you just 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:27.919 end up with total chaos. Which brings us to the 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:33.200 modern era, 2019 to the present day. He steps 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:35.299 up to become the Secretary General of the Iran 00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:38.480 Transition Council, the ITC. Yes. This is his 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.860 current major project. The ITC is explicitly 00:15:41.860 --> 00:15:44.539 designed to be a broad coalition, basically a 00:15:44.539 --> 00:15:46.659 government in waiting. And looking at their official 00:15:46.659 --> 00:15:48.879 platform, there are the usual suspects you'd 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:51.559 expect. Secular democracy, the total separation 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:53.860 of religion and state. Yeah. But there was one 00:15:53.860 --> 00:15:56.299 very specific phrase that keeps popping up in 00:15:56.299 --> 00:15:58.200 the source material, and I really want to understand 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:01.009 why it's given so much weight. They heavily emphasize 00:16:01.009 --> 00:16:03.450 the preservation of Iran's territorial integrity. 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:06.580 That is a massive, massive point. And honestly, 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:09.620 you cannot understand modern Iranian politics 00:16:09.620 --> 00:16:11.960 without understanding that phrase. Why is that? 00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:14.080 I mean, is there a looming threat of someone 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:17.240 invading Iran? No, it's not about an outside 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:19.620 invasion. The fear is that Iran will break apart 00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:22.419 from the inside because Iran isn't just made 00:16:22.419 --> 00:16:26.019 up of Persians. It's a vast, multi -ethnic empire, 00:16:26.019 --> 00:16:29.200 essentially. You have large populations of Kurds, 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:32.100 Azeris, Baluchis, Arabs. And the current regime 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:33.919 has spent the last 40 years years telling the 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.500 Persian majority, listen, if we get overthrown, 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:38.820 the whole country turns into Yugoslavia in the 00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:41.299 90s. They say the Kurds will violently break 00:16:41.299 --> 00:16:44.120 away. The Baluchis will secede. It'll be a total 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:47.080 bloodbath. So it's the classic us or chaos argument. 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.779 Keep us in power or the map dissolve. Exactly. 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:52.519 And it is a very, very effective fear tactic. 00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:55.440 So Shariat Madari is actively trying to neutralize 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.759 that specific fear. By putting territorial integrity 00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:01.860 right at the top of the ITC charter, he is signaling 00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:04.549 to the to the majority, we're going to keep the 00:17:04.549 --> 00:17:06.569 map together. We are not going to let the country 00:17:06.569 --> 00:17:09.569 shatter. Right. But, and this is the Vital Balancing 00:17:09.569 --> 00:17:12.549 Act, he's simultaneously promising decentralization 00:17:12.549 --> 00:17:14.529 and equal rights for all those ethnic minorities 00:17:14.529 --> 00:17:16.529 so they stay in the coalition. And when you think 00:17:16.529 --> 00:17:19.349 about his background, he is kind of the perfect 00:17:19.349 --> 00:17:21.789 guy to sell that exact message, isn't he? He 00:17:21.789 --> 00:17:24.230 really is. Remember, he's an Azeri from Tabriz. 00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:27.170 So he's not a Persian nationalist looking down 00:17:27.170 --> 00:17:30.109 on the provinces. But he is also the son of a 00:17:30.109 --> 00:17:32.890 revered Grand Ayatollah, which gives him this 00:17:32.890 --> 00:17:35.430 undeniable traditional credibility with the conservative 00:17:35.430 --> 00:17:38.789 center. He is, simply in his own person, a walking 00:17:38.789 --> 00:17:41.390 bridge between the minority ethnicities and the 00:17:41.390 --> 00:17:43.509 religious establishment. But the big question 00:17:43.509 --> 00:17:46.180 from all of this is, does it actually work? I 00:17:46.180 --> 00:17:48.619 mean, he is in his late 70s now. He has been 00:17:48.619 --> 00:17:51.819 living in Germany for decades. Does a Gen Z protestor 00:17:51.819 --> 00:17:54.400 in the streets of Tehran today, you know, a kid 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.539 who is listening to underground rap music and 00:17:56.539 --> 00:17:58.779 actively fighting the morality police, do they 00:17:58.779 --> 00:18:01.039 actually care what a 77 -year -old intellectual 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:03.700 in Hamburg has to say? That is the million dollar 00:18:03.700 --> 00:18:06.480 question for the opposition because there is 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:08.980 always going to be a disconnect between the diaspora 00:18:08.980 --> 00:18:11.740 in Europe or America and the people actually 00:18:11.740 --> 00:18:14.069 bleeding on the street. And the kids on the street 00:18:14.069 --> 00:18:17.089 right now are chanting slogans that are often 00:18:17.089 --> 00:18:20.289 incredibly anti -religion, not just anti -regime. 00:18:20.569 --> 00:18:22.349 Right. They're just totally done with the clergy 00:18:22.349 --> 00:18:25.789 entirely. Many of them are. So Sharia Madari's 00:18:25.789 --> 00:18:28.690 deeply nuanced message of, hey, let's have a 00:18:28.690 --> 00:18:31.049 secular republic, but one that still culturally 00:18:31.049 --> 00:18:33.950 respects our religious heritage, that might feel 00:18:33.950 --> 00:18:36.349 way too soft or out of touch for someone who 00:18:36.349 --> 00:18:38.289 just had their friend beaten by the morality 00:18:38.289 --> 00:18:40.150 police. Yeah, they might just want to burn the 00:18:40.150 --> 00:18:42.799 whole system down entirely. They might. Shariat 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.640 Madari's counter -argument, rooted in his sociological 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:48.519 and historical study, is that you simply cannot 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:51.259 delete religion from Iranian society by force. 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:54.680 It is too deeply embedded. If you try to enforce 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:57.259 aggressive, militant secularism from the top 00:18:57.259 --> 00:18:59.400 down, you don't achieve peace. You just create 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:01.319 a brand new conflict. So he's arguing for a middle 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.369 ground. He argues that the only political container 00:19:04.369 --> 00:19:07.470 big enough to safely hold both the radical skater 00:19:07.470 --> 00:19:10.369 kid in Caron and the deeply conservative grandmother 00:19:10.369 --> 00:19:13.490 in Coombe is a secular democracy that genuinely 00:19:13.490 --> 00:19:16.750 respects both of their rights to exist. It's 00:19:16.750 --> 00:19:19.289 the physicist looking for equilibrium again, 00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:21.930 balancing the pressure in the system so it doesn't 00:19:21.930 --> 00:19:24.829 explode. Precisely. And Honestly, despite his 00:19:24.829 --> 00:19:27.009 age, the sources show he is working harder than 00:19:27.009 --> 00:19:29.730 ever right now. He's constantly building coalitions. 00:19:30.089 --> 00:19:32.049 He's holding high level meetings with European 00:19:32.049 --> 00:19:34.609 parliaments. He's basically trying to force the 00:19:34.609 --> 00:19:37.230 international community to legitimately prepare 00:19:37.230 --> 00:19:41.200 for a post Islamic Republic Iran. It's an incredible 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:44.259 testament to his patience. He has been systematically 00:19:44.259 --> 00:19:46.920 grinding away at this exact problem for over 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.339 four decades. It really makes you rethink the 00:19:49.339 --> 00:19:51.980 entire nature of what leadership in exile actually 00:19:51.980 --> 00:19:54.400 looks like. It's not always about, you know, 00:19:54.500 --> 00:19:56.640 leading the charge on a white horse with a sword. 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.940 No, rarely. Sometimes it's just about doing the 00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:02.059 quiet homework. It's about writing the legal 00:20:02.059 --> 00:20:04.480 charters, running the online seminars, doing 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:07.819 the tedious organizing so that when that window 00:20:07.819 --> 00:20:10.809 of opportunity finally opens, the people aren't 00:20:10.809 --> 00:20:12.950 starting from scratch. Absolutely. It's all about 00:20:12.950 --> 00:20:16.150 being structurally ready for the moment. So as 00:20:16.150 --> 00:20:19.130 we wrap this up, when we look at this whole complex 00:20:19.130 --> 00:20:22.170 picture, the physics, the high theology, the 00:20:22.170 --> 00:20:25.990 secular law, the 40 years of exile, what is the 00:20:25.990 --> 00:20:28.349 really big takeaway for you from Hassan Sharia 00:20:28.349 --> 00:20:30.380 Vardari's life? I think the biggest takeaway 00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:32.680 is the sheer power of synthesis. You know, we 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:35.579 live in a global political climate that is incredibly 00:20:35.579 --> 00:20:38.140 stubbornly polarized. We're constantly told that 00:20:38.140 --> 00:20:40.420 you have to be one thing or the other. You are 00:20:40.420 --> 00:20:42.759 either deeply religious or you are strictly secular. 00:20:42.900 --> 00:20:44.900 You're a nationalist or a globalist. You represent 00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:47.700 tradition or you represent modernity. Pick a 00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:50.240 side and fight the other side. And he just totally 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:54.140 refuses to pick. Exactly. He says, I am all of 00:20:54.140 --> 00:20:56.920 these things. He is a man of hard science who 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.099 fundamentally respects faith. He is a legal scholar 00:21:00.099 --> 00:21:02.059 who believes in the necessity of revolution. 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:04.880 He's an exile who is completely obsessed with 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:08.420 fixing his homeland. He represents the very rare 00:21:08.420 --> 00:21:10.859 idea that you don't actually have to burn down 00:21:10.859 --> 00:21:13.319 your entire history to build a modern future. 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:15.400 That your heritage can actually be the bridge 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.039 rather than the barrier. Right. And that maybe, 00:21:18.180 --> 00:21:21.220 just maybe, the cold, systems -level thinking 00:21:21.220 --> 00:21:23.980 of a physicist is exactly the kind of mind you 00:21:23.980 --> 00:21:26.160 need to untangle a mess as deeply complex as 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:28.460 a 40 -year theocracy. It's a completely fascinating 00:21:28.460 --> 00:21:30.240 way to look at it. And it actually leaves us 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:32.000 with a provocative thought for you listening 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.099 to them all over today. Let's hear it. We so 00:21:34.099 --> 00:21:37.119 often assume that to defeat a deeply entrenched 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:40.200 religious dictatorship, you need the exact opposite 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:43.380 force, right? Like an aggressive, uncompromising 00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:46.789 secularism that just sweeps it all away. But 00:21:46.789 --> 00:21:49.009 looking closely at Sherriette Madari's approach, 00:21:49.509 --> 00:21:51.750 is it possible that the only person who can truly 00:21:51.750 --> 00:21:54.410 dismantle the master's house is someone who actually 00:21:54.410 --> 00:21:57.529 knows exactly how it was built? Can only a man 00:21:57.529 --> 00:22:00.230 who fluently speaks the very specific language 00:22:00.230 --> 00:22:03.190 of the Ayatollahs effectively convince a nation 00:22:03.190 --> 00:22:05.470 to finally leave them behind? That is a great 00:22:05.470 --> 00:22:07.109 question. It's really the question of whether 00:22:07.109 --> 00:22:10.470 a successful democratic transition needs a demolition 00:22:10.470 --> 00:22:13.210 expert or an architect. A demolition expert or 00:22:13.210 --> 00:22:15.380 an architect. I really like that. Well, thank 00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:17.460 you for joining us on this deep dive into the 00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:20.279 records and life of Hasan Sharat Madari. It was 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:22.640 a pleasure to unpack it all. Keep questioning 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:24.740 the systems around you, and we'll catch you on 00:22:24.740 --> 00:22:25.599 the next deep dive.