WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.139 I want you to picture a very specific kind of 00:00:05.139 --> 00:00:07.120 morning anxiety. Oh, I think I know where this 00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:09.820 is going. Yeah, you probably do. So it's Saturday 00:00:09.820 --> 00:00:12.919 morning. You are standing in a line that wraps 00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:15.060 all the way around the block. Right. You can 00:00:15.060 --> 00:00:18.000 smell the yeast, the sugar, that distinct hot 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:21.660 dough smell of a classic New York style bakery. 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:24.339 Best smell in the world. It really is. And you 00:00:24.339 --> 00:00:26.140 finally get to the front of the line. The person 00:00:26.140 --> 00:00:28.320 behind the counter is holding the tongs, looking 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:30.980 at you with absolutely zero patience. Naturally. 00:00:31.420 --> 00:00:35.079 And you just freeze. Bakery paralysis. It happens 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:37.039 to the best of us. Right. Because you look at 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:39.179 the poppy seed and you think, well, that's too 00:00:39.179 --> 00:00:41.179 simple. You look at the sesame and you're like 00:00:41.179 --> 00:00:43.020 too boring. You look at the garlic and you think, 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:45.240 I have a meeting later. I really can't smell 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:48.000 like a vampire today. You want all of it, but 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:51.219 you have to pick one. Exactly. It is a high -stakes 00:00:51.219 --> 00:00:53.859 decision for 9 a .m. It's the classic paradox 00:00:53.859 --> 00:00:56.659 of choice, you know? When you're presented with 00:00:56.659 --> 00:01:01.560 five genuinely good options, the fear of missing 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:05.159 out the FOMO just kicks in hard. Oh, completely. 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:07.480 You don't want to commit to the salt bagel because 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:09.420 you're already mourning the loss of the onion 00:01:09.420 --> 00:01:12.680 bagel. Which is exactly why, for the indecisive 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:15.120 and the greedy among us, and I definitely include 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:18.680 myself in that category, there is a savior. The 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:20.900 ultimate cheat code. The cheat code of the bakery 00:01:20.900 --> 00:01:23.750 world, the everything bagel. Yes. Today, we are 00:01:23.750 --> 00:01:25.810 not just talking about a breakfast food. We're 00:01:25.810 --> 00:01:29.390 doing a deep dive into how a pile of bakery trash, 00:01:29.530 --> 00:01:31.349 and I mean, that literally became the defining 00:01:31.349 --> 00:01:33.930 flavor of a generation. It really is a wild trajectory. 00:01:34.030 --> 00:01:36.609 It is. And just to give you an overview of where 00:01:36.609 --> 00:01:39.150 we're pulling all this from, our deep dive today 00:01:39.150 --> 00:01:42.090 is based on a really fascinating collection of 00:01:42.090 --> 00:01:44.750 sources. We've gone through Wikipedia archives, 00:01:45.109 --> 00:01:47.689 deep cut culinary articles, historical bakery 00:01:47.689 --> 00:01:50.569 records. And we are on a mission. to unpack how 00:01:50.569 --> 00:01:52.469 this happened because we're going to look at 00:01:52.469 --> 00:01:54.950 the science of why this specific combination 00:01:54.950 --> 00:01:58.489 of seeds hits our brains like a drug. Oh, yeah. 00:01:58.629 --> 00:02:01.450 We're also getting into the surprisingly vicious 00:02:01.450 --> 00:02:05.329 legal and historical battle over who actually 00:02:05.329 --> 00:02:09.270 invented it. So much drama. And finally, how 00:02:09.270 --> 00:02:13.270 it ended up as a literal symbol of nihilism in 00:02:13.270 --> 00:02:16.639 an Oscar winning movie. It's a fascinating case 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:19.300 study in what we call culinary convergence. You 00:02:19.300 --> 00:02:22.199 know how multiple people often stumble upon the 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:24.719 exact same great idea at the exact same time. 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:27.740 Nihilism and cream cheese. Just a perfect Saturday. 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:30.419 Truly. So let's just start with the basics here. 00:02:30.539 --> 00:02:32.539 I feel like we take the everything bagel for 00:02:32.539 --> 00:02:34.300 granted. It's just you know the one with the 00:02:34.300 --> 00:02:36.599 stuff on it. Right. But our sources for this 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:38.500 deep dive suggest that the actual definition 00:02:38.500 --> 00:02:42.629 is pretty rigid. It is surprisingly strict. If 00:02:42.629 --> 00:02:45.110 you look at the culinary archives, and everything 00:02:45.110 --> 00:02:47.490 bagel isn't just a random assortment of whatever 00:02:47.490 --> 00:02:49.969 happens to be in the pantry. A very specific 00:02:49.969 --> 00:02:53.289 chemical balance. And a key point here, it is 00:02:53.289 --> 00:02:55.490 strictly about the toppings, the crust. Meaning 00:02:55.490 --> 00:02:57.889 you can't stuff it with jalapenos and cheddar 00:02:57.889 --> 00:03:00.629 and call it an everything bagel. Correct. Everything 00:03:00.629 --> 00:03:02.430 is the exoskeleton. It has nothing to do with 00:03:02.430 --> 00:03:04.590 the fillings. Interesting. And the canonical 00:03:04.590 --> 00:03:07.710 list of ingredients is actually a master class 00:03:07.710 --> 00:03:10.030 in flavor layering. Okay, lay it out for me. 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:12.240 You start with the base, which is your standard 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:14.360 wheat dough, boiled and baked. Wait! Then you 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:16.439 have the aromatics. That's the garlic flakes 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:18.560 and the onion flakes. Okay, stop right there 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:20.680 for a second, because I have always wondered 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:24.139 this. What's that? Why flakes? Why not fresh 00:03:24.139 --> 00:03:27.099 garlic? If I'm making pasta or chicken, I use 00:03:27.099 --> 00:03:30.340 fresh garlic. Why are we using this dehydrated 00:03:30.340 --> 00:03:32.919 stuff that looks like fish food? That is a great 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:35.020 question, and it really comes down to the science 00:03:35.020 --> 00:03:38.340 of the bake. Okay. Think about it. If you put 00:03:38.340 --> 00:03:41.219 fresh minced garlic or raw onion on the outside 00:03:41.219 --> 00:03:43.960 of a piece of dough and threw it in a 500 degree 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:46.419 commercial oven, what happens? Well, it burns. 00:03:46.699 --> 00:03:49.919 It incinerates. It turns bitter and acrid almost 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.520 instantly. Yeah. But the dehydrated flakes, they 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:56.139 are fascinating. Oh, so. They start out bone 00:03:56.139 --> 00:03:58.879 dry. Yeah. All right. But as the bagel bakes, 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:02.000 the dough itself releases steam. Oh, I see. So 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.539 those flakes actually rehydrate slightly from 00:04:04.539 --> 00:04:07.199 the steam of the bread while simultaneously toasting 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.460 on the outside from the ambient heat of the oven. 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:13.620 That is so clever. It creates that very specific, 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:17.300 chewy, crunchy texture that you just cannot get 00:04:17.300 --> 00:04:20.759 with fresh vegetables. It's a savory umami bomb 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:23.620 that is chemically distinct from fresh garlic. 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:26.259 So it's basically reanimating the garlic. In 00:04:26.259 --> 00:04:28.480 a way, yeah. You're bringing it back to life 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:31.240 with bread steam. I love that. Then, moving down 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:34.519 the list, you have the seeds. Poppy and sesame. 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:37.379 Right. And this isn't just for decoration. Sesame 00:04:37.379 --> 00:04:39.860 adds oil and nuttiness to the flavor profile. 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:43.019 And the poppy. Poppy adds that earthy, slightly 00:04:43.019 --> 00:04:45.540 bitter crunch that inevitably gets stuck in your 00:04:45.540 --> 00:04:47.600 teeth. The little souvenir you take with you 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:49.500 for the rest of the day. Unfortunately, yes. 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:51.779 you'll be picking that out at 3 p .m. Always. 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:54.259 Then you have the coarse kosher salt. Crucial, 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:56.579 absolutely crucial. It's the flavor amplifier. 00:04:56.620 --> 00:04:58.980 Yeah. It literally wakes up the receptors on 00:04:58.980 --> 00:05:01.740 your tongue so you can actually taste the garlic 00:05:01.740 --> 00:05:04.560 in the onion. Okay, so that's dough, garlic, 00:05:05.100 --> 00:05:07.579 onion, poppy, sesame, salt. Right, but then... 00:05:07.579 --> 00:05:09.120 So there we go. Then there is the controversial 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:11.819 one. The ingredient that I bet 50 % of our listener 00:05:11.819 --> 00:05:14.560 don't even realize is there, and the other 50 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:17.430 % actively hate. I was reading the ingredient 00:05:17.430 --> 00:05:19.430 list in the source material, and I actually had 00:05:19.430 --> 00:05:21.709 to go to my kitchen and double check my own pantry. 00:05:22.290 --> 00:05:25.350 It is the dark horse of the bagel world. You 00:05:25.350 --> 00:05:27.730 are talking about caraway seeds. Caraway. Now, 00:05:27.730 --> 00:05:30.350 I only know caraway from exactly one place. Rye 00:05:30.350 --> 00:05:32.610 bread. Exactly, rye bread. The stuff you use 00:05:32.610 --> 00:05:35.750 for a Reuben sandwich, it tastes like, kind of 00:05:35.750 --> 00:05:38.889 like licorice or innis. Yeah, it has a compound 00:05:38.889 --> 00:05:41.629 in it called carvone. It's very distinct, very 00:05:41.629 --> 00:05:44.939 polarizing. It is what... gives rye bread that 00:05:44.939 --> 00:05:49.540 unmistakable rye taste. But in the original 1970s, 00:05:49.819 --> 00:05:52.899 everything bagel, caraway, was a non -negotiable 00:05:52.899 --> 00:05:55.040 element. But why? It seems like it would clash 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:57.120 horribly with the garlic and the onion. You would 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:58.959 think so, but think about what you usually put 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:02.439 on a bagel. Green cheese. Exactly. Fatty, rich, 00:06:02.699 --> 00:06:06.129 heavy cream cheese. Caraway acts as a cut. Oh, 00:06:06.129 --> 00:06:09.209 interesting. That sharp, slightly minty licorice 00:06:09.209 --> 00:06:11.670 flavor cuts right through the fat of the dairy 00:06:11.670 --> 00:06:13.870 and cleanses the palate. So you don't just get 00:06:13.870 --> 00:06:16.689 bogged down in the heaviness. Exactly. It prevents 00:06:16.689 --> 00:06:19.089 the bagel from just tasting like a heavy lump 00:06:19.089 --> 00:06:22.410 of dough and grease. So it's functional architecture. 00:06:22.589 --> 00:06:25.550 It's load -bearing flavor. It really is. But 00:06:25.550 --> 00:06:28.509 because it is so polarizing, a lot of modern 00:06:28.509 --> 00:06:30.970 supermarket versions, you know, ones you buy 00:06:30.970 --> 00:06:33.689 in the plastic sleeves, they quietly remove it. 00:06:33.829 --> 00:06:36.730 No way. Yeah. They don't think the mass consumer 00:06:36.730 --> 00:06:38.889 can handle the caraway. They're dumbing down 00:06:38.889 --> 00:06:41.490 our bagels. They are streamlining them for sure. 00:06:41.529 --> 00:06:44.629 Yeah. But if you go to an authentic old school 00:06:44.629 --> 00:06:47.550 New York bagel shop, the caraway is usually still 00:06:47.550 --> 00:06:49.649 there fighting for its life against the onion. 00:06:49.790 --> 00:06:51.709 I am definitely checking for caraway next time. 00:06:51.910 --> 00:06:54.870 You should. OK, so we have this perfect chemical 00:06:54.870 --> 00:06:57.970 weapon of a breakfast food. The Voltron of carbs. 00:06:58.189 --> 00:07:01.350 Yes. But where did it actually come from? Because 00:07:01.350 --> 00:07:04.009 this is where the story gets really messy. Very 00:07:04.009 --> 00:07:05.949 messy. You'd think someone just accidentally 00:07:05.949 --> 00:07:08.449 dropped a plain bagel into a bin of mixed seeds 00:07:08.449 --> 00:07:10.670 and went, oops, well, let's bake it anyway. Right. 00:07:10.790 --> 00:07:13.329 But apparently people are fiercely fighting over 00:07:13.329 --> 00:07:16.370 this legacy. Oh, it is a full blown custody battle 00:07:16.370 --> 00:07:19.279 in the culinary world. I love it. We have multiple 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:23.100 claimants, inconsistent timelines, and some very 00:07:23.100 --> 00:07:26.860 bruised egos. And the geography for all of this 00:07:26.860 --> 00:07:29.300 is highly specific. Where are we talking? We 00:07:29.300 --> 00:07:31.620 are talking exclusively about the Jewish bakery 00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:35.100 scene in New York and Long Island in the 1970s 00:07:35.100 --> 00:07:37.699 and 80s. OK, let's meet the contestants. In the 00:07:37.699 --> 00:07:40.040 red corner, we have a guy we'll call the teenager. 00:07:40.459 --> 00:07:43.939 That would be Brandon Steiner. Right. Now. You 00:07:43.939 --> 00:07:46.540 might actually know that name. He became a huge 00:07:46.540 --> 00:07:49.079 sports marketing mogul much later in life. Oh, 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:52.139 the Steiner Sports Guy. Exactly. But back in 00:07:52.139 --> 00:07:55.540 1973, he was just a 14 -year -old care, working 00:07:55.540 --> 00:07:58.079 the night shift at a bakery in Brooklyn. I just 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.120 love the image of a 14 -year -old being given 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:02.660 free rein in a commercial bakery overnight. That 00:08:02.660 --> 00:08:06.540 feels very 1973. Different times. Very much so. 00:08:06.620 --> 00:08:08.720 Just like, here kid, watch the ovens, try not 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.699 to burn the burro down. Pretty much. And Steiner's 00:08:11.699 --> 00:08:14.139 story is essentially one of boredom. Which is 00:08:14.139 --> 00:08:16.740 the mother of invention. Truly. He claims he 00:08:16.740 --> 00:08:18.379 was just screwing around. He was making braids, 00:08:18.459 --> 00:08:21.480 making onion flats, just testing the limits of 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:24.699 the dough to pass the time. And one night, he 00:08:24.699 --> 00:08:28.480 has a light bulb moment. He says, and I'm quoting 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.519 his own blog post directly here, I had the thought 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:34.320 to throw all the toppings on a bagel at once. 00:08:34.570 --> 00:08:36.889 That's how I invented the everything bagel. So 00:08:36.889 --> 00:08:39.590 it's the maximalist approach. Just why choose 00:08:39.590 --> 00:08:42.710 one flavor when I can literally have them all? 00:08:42.850 --> 00:08:45.789 It's a deliberate artistic creation in his mind. 00:08:45.870 --> 00:08:48.929 Exactly. He positions himself as a genuine inventor, 00:08:49.549 --> 00:08:52.049 a culinary disruptor, basically. OK, I buy that. 00:08:52.470 --> 00:08:55.629 Kids do weird stuff with food. They do. But then 00:08:55.629 --> 00:08:58.389 in the blue corner, we have a story that is much 00:08:58.389 --> 00:09:01.049 less flattering. Yes. This is the one that frankly 00:09:01.049 --> 00:09:02.809 kind of grosses me out. It's a little rough. 00:09:02.990 --> 00:09:04.950 This is the story of David Gusson. Right, David 00:09:04.950 --> 00:09:08.909 Gusson. Now his claim dates to around 1980, so 00:09:08.909 --> 00:09:10.889 a bit later than Steiner's. Okay, seven years 00:09:10.889 --> 00:09:12.909 later. He was working at a bagel shop in Howard 00:09:12.909 --> 00:09:16.090 Beach, Queens. And his story isn't about artistic 00:09:16.090 --> 00:09:18.450 inspiration at all. It's about cleaning up. He 00:09:18.450 --> 00:09:20.710 was the sweeper, right? He was. Now you have 00:09:20.710 --> 00:09:22.909 to picture the inside of these huge industrial 00:09:22.909 --> 00:09:25.879 bakeries. They have these massive tunnel ovens 00:09:25.879 --> 00:09:28.220 where the bagels travel through on conveyor belts. 00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:31.279 Like a car wash for bread. Exactly. And as they 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:34.240 bake, seeds fall off, burnt onions fall off, 00:09:34.419 --> 00:09:37.019 salt falls off. Right. And it all just accumulates 00:09:37.019 --> 00:09:38.500 at the bottom of the oven over the course of 00:09:38.500 --> 00:09:41.639 the day. It's debris. It's charred bakery dandruff. 00:09:41.860 --> 00:09:45.120 Well, Guson calls it sweepings. Sweepings. He 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:47.600 was literally sweeping out the oven. And instead 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:50.039 of throwing this huge mix of burnt seeds into 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:52.960 the trash, he scooped it all into a bin. OK, 00:09:53.019 --> 00:09:54.960 hold on. I really need to pause here for a second. 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:57.580 Go ahead. Are you seriously telling me that the 00:09:57.580 --> 00:10:01.039 most popular bagel flavor in America, the one 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:04.559 I willingly pay extra for, is literally based 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:08.000 on the concept of eating trash? Trash is a very 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:10.460 harsh word. Let's call it reclaimed resources. 00:10:10.700 --> 00:10:13.559 It's floor sweepings. Oven floor. Is there a 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:15.929 difference? Yes. It's sterile. It's been sitting 00:10:15.929 --> 00:10:18.610 at 500 degrees all day. I guess that's true. 00:10:18.750 --> 00:10:20.669 But yes, Gustin's claim is that he took this 00:10:20.669 --> 00:10:23.870 bin to the owner and suggested, hey, why don't 00:10:23.870 --> 00:10:26.429 we roll some fresh dough in this bin of leftovers 00:10:26.429 --> 00:10:30.210 and sell it? Pure profit. Exactly. And the most 00:10:30.210 --> 00:10:32.889 crucial part of his claim is that he says he 00:10:32.889 --> 00:10:35.830 coined the name Everything Bagel right then and 00:10:35.830 --> 00:10:38.340 there. See, this is the difference between marketing 00:10:38.340 --> 00:10:41.519 and reality. How so? If he had called it the 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:44.799 trash bin bagel or the sweepings bagel, it never 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:46.720 would have taken off. Oh, absolutely not. Dead 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.299 on arrival. But calling it everything sounds 00:10:49.299 --> 00:10:52.340 abundant. Right. And Guson is adamant about this. 00:10:52.419 --> 00:10:54.899 He actually admits that other people might have 00:10:54.899 --> 00:10:58.019 mixed seeds together before he did. OK. But he 00:10:58.019 --> 00:11:00.340 explicitly insists that he invented the name. 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:03.360 To him, the branding is the actual invention. 00:11:03.529 --> 00:11:07.669 Okay, so we have the artist Steiner in 73 and 00:11:07.669 --> 00:11:10.990 the sweeper Gusson in 80. Yes. It feels like 00:11:10.990 --> 00:11:14.750 a classic he said he said situation. And usually 00:11:14.750 --> 00:11:16.309 in these historical deep dives, we just have 00:11:16.309 --> 00:11:18.129 to shrug and say, well, we'll never know for 00:11:18.129 --> 00:11:21.169 sure. Yes, it's last time. Yeah. But this time 00:11:21.169 --> 00:11:24.389 we have a smoking gun. I love a good smoking 00:11:24.389 --> 00:11:27.389 gun. Or a smoking toaster in this case. Nice. 00:11:27.610 --> 00:11:30.909 Our sources dug up a newspaper column. from Newsday, 00:11:31.029 --> 00:11:33.450 which is a big Long Island paper. And this article 00:11:33.450 --> 00:11:36.769 is dated January 19th, 1977. OK, let's look at 00:11:36.769 --> 00:11:40.610 the timeline here. Steiner is 73. Guson is 80. 00:11:41.029 --> 00:11:44.009 This article is 77. Smack in the middle. Interesting. 00:11:44.230 --> 00:11:46.549 What does it say? The article is a dining review 00:11:46.549 --> 00:11:49.710 of a place called Bagel Master in Siset, New 00:11:49.710 --> 00:11:54.210 York. OK. and the writer explicitly mentions 00:11:54.210 --> 00:11:56.850 a bagel designed for, and I'll quote this directly, 00:11:57.549 --> 00:11:59.909 those who can never decide if they want plain, 00:12:00.230 --> 00:12:03.649 salt, poppy seed, sesame seed, garlic, or onion. 00:12:04.269 --> 00:12:06.450 Okay, that describes the exact problem we talked 00:12:06.450 --> 00:12:08.470 about earlier. Right, and then the article says, 00:12:08.490 --> 00:12:10.870 quote, there's something called the everything 00:12:10.870 --> 00:12:13.409 bagel, which is topped with all of them. Oh. 00:12:13.789 --> 00:12:16.549 Something called the Everything Bagel. Yes. That's 00:12:16.549 --> 00:12:18.429 definitive. It's right there in print. It proves, 00:12:18.629 --> 00:12:21.590 without a shadow of a doubt, that the name and 00:12:21.590 --> 00:12:24.289 the concept were already public knowledge and 00:12:24.289 --> 00:12:27.190 being sold commercially three full years before 00:12:27.190 --> 00:12:29.330 David Gusson claims to have invented the name. 00:12:29.629 --> 00:12:32.409 So sorry, David Gusson, but the timeline just 00:12:32.409 --> 00:12:34.610 doesn't work for your story. It really doesn't. 00:12:34.850 --> 00:12:37.090 But wait, does that mean Steiner is the definitive 00:12:37.090 --> 00:12:42.049 winner then? Because 73 is before 77? Not necessarily. 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:44.980 because there are actually other claimants too. 00:12:45.340 --> 00:12:48.220 Really? Who else? Well, the marketing guru Seth 00:12:48.220 --> 00:12:51.179 Godin claims on his blog that he worked in a 00:12:51.179 --> 00:12:53.259 bagel factory producing them two years before 00:12:53.259 --> 00:12:56.960 Guson. Okay. And even Joe Bastianich. The famous 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.179 restaurateur. The very same. Yeah. He has thrown 00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:02.360 his hat in the ring as a potential inventor. 00:13:02.700 --> 00:13:05.000 Though our sources note that his claim is highly 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:07.559 disputed. This is wild. It's like everyone wants 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:09.899 to be the father of the everything bagel. But 00:13:09.899 --> 00:13:13.700 our expert synthesis of all these sources suggests 00:13:13.700 --> 00:13:16.720 something else entirely. Which is? The theory 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:19.200 of culinary convergence. Culinary convergence. 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:21.500 Right. The idea that maybe the exact date, whether 00:13:21.500 --> 00:13:25.659 it's 73, 77, or 80, matters a lot less than the 00:13:25.659 --> 00:13:28.299 geography and the culture. OK. Break that down 00:13:28.299 --> 00:13:30.600 for me. Think about the environment in New York 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:33.389 and Long Island at that time. You have hundreds 00:13:33.389 --> 00:13:36.169 of independent Jewish bakeries all operating 00:13:36.169 --> 00:13:39.309 in the same area. They all have the exact same 00:13:39.309 --> 00:13:42.649 five or six ingredients sitting in bins right 00:13:42.649 --> 00:13:44.629 next to each other on the prep tables. Yeah. 00:13:44.970 --> 00:13:47.149 And they all have the same indecisive customers. 00:13:47.230 --> 00:13:49.750 And I'm guessing they all have that same thriftiness, 00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:53.909 right? Exactly. This is deeply rooted in Ashkenazi 00:13:53.909 --> 00:13:57.269 Jewish baking culture. OK. This is a culture 00:13:57.269 --> 00:14:00.409 born from generations of scarcity and hardship 00:14:00.409 --> 00:14:03.029 in Eastern Europe. which was then brought to 00:14:03.029 --> 00:14:05.309 the tenements of New York City. You do not waste 00:14:05.309 --> 00:14:08.870 food. You never throw things away. You make kugel 00:14:08.870 --> 00:14:11.649 out of leftover noodles. You make matzo brie. 00:14:12.110 --> 00:14:14.549 You make croutons out of stale bread. So the 00:14:14.549 --> 00:14:16.990 idea of sweeping up leftover seeds and finding 00:14:16.990 --> 00:14:19.490 a way to sell them? It wasn't just one genius 00:14:19.490 --> 00:14:22.149 guy having a eureka moment. Right. It was probably 00:14:22.149 --> 00:14:24.450 happening in 50 different bakery basements at 00:14:24.450 --> 00:14:26.909 the exact same time. That makes so much sense. 00:14:27.450 --> 00:14:29.710 Everything bagel was just inevitable. It was 00:14:29.710 --> 00:14:32.309 destiny in dough form. The ingredients wanted 00:14:32.309 --> 00:14:34.509 to be together. It just took a few decades for 00:14:34.509 --> 00:14:36.570 us to realize we could market it. So it starts 00:14:36.570 --> 00:14:39.049 as this hyper local way to save money on seeds 00:14:39.049 --> 00:14:41.570 in the 1970s. Right. But then as we get into 00:14:41.570 --> 00:14:44.149 the modern era, something really weird happens. 00:14:44.309 --> 00:14:47.090 The flavor escapes the bagel. It completely goes 00:14:47.090 --> 00:14:49.549 rogue. It does. It stopped being just a bread 00:14:49.549 --> 00:14:51.750 topping and became a standalone seasoning category. 00:14:51.899 --> 00:14:54.539 I remember seeing this shift happen in real time. 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.159 First it was bagel chips, which makes total sense. 00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:59.679 That's literally just a hard sliced bagel. Logical 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:03.559 extension. But then, I mean, have you walked 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:05.840 down the snack aisle of a Trader Joe's lately? 00:15:06.019 --> 00:15:08.039 Oh, it's out of control. It is everywhere. We 00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:10.879 have everything bagel dip, everything bagel mixed 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:14.360 nuts. Pasta. OK, we need to address the crimes, 00:15:14.620 --> 00:15:17.500 though. The crimes. Because there are culinary 00:15:17.500 --> 00:15:19.759 crimes being committed in the name of this seasoning. 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:22.879 I was at a trendy coffee shop the other day, 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:27.659 and I saw an everything croissant. Ah, yes. The 00:15:27.659 --> 00:15:30.659 fusion pastry. It felt deeply wrong to me. Why? 00:15:30.980 --> 00:15:33.639 A croissant's about butter, right? It's about 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:36.779 delicacy, laminating the dough, the flaky layers. 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.259 It's French. True. Putting pungent, rehydrated 00:15:40.259 --> 00:15:43.259 garlic and onion on a delicate croissant. Isn't 00:15:43.259 --> 00:15:45.980 that basically a declaration of war against France? 00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:48.340 It might be considered a hostile act in Paris, 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:52.379 yes. But from a purely flavor perspective, it 00:15:52.379 --> 00:15:54.500 actually makes a lot of sense. Explain yourself. 00:15:54.659 --> 00:15:57.159 Think about the profile. A croissant is basically 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:00.600 just fat and simple carbs. Right. Everything 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.659 seasoning provides the coarse salt. and the sharp, 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:06.840 savory punch that cuts through all that butter. 00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:08.799 Like the caraway. Exactly, like the caraway. 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:10.740 It's the exact same principle as the bagel, just 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:13.120 using a much flakier vehicle. I still say it 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:16.100 feels aggressive, but I think the ultimate decoupling 00:16:16.100 --> 00:16:19.059 of the flavor from the bread is the jar. The 00:16:19.059 --> 00:16:21.440 shaker jars. Yeah. You can just buy the seasoning 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:24.240 by itself now. That was the massive game changer. 00:16:24.379 --> 00:16:28.360 Once you could buy a little glass jar of everything 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:31.389 but the bagel seasoning, the bagel itself became 00:16:31.389 --> 00:16:33.769 totally irrelevant. Which is crazy to think about. 00:16:33.889 --> 00:16:36.090 It is. But you could put it on avocado toast, 00:16:36.370 --> 00:16:40.570 on fried eggs, on popcorn. We collectively realized 00:16:40.570 --> 00:16:42.789 that we didn't actually want the 400 calories 00:16:42.789 --> 00:16:45.070 of dense bread. We just wanted the salt and the 00:16:45.070 --> 00:16:47.090 garlic. We wanted the dopamine hit of the seasoning 00:16:47.090 --> 00:16:51.129 without the chew. That is so true. But this massive 00:16:51.129 --> 00:16:53.909 commercialization, this idea that everything 00:16:53.909 --> 00:16:57.570 can literally be on everything. It leads us to 00:16:57.570 --> 00:17:00.009 a really fascinating pop culture moment. Yes, 00:17:00.009 --> 00:17:02.590 it does. Because the everything bagel isn't just 00:17:02.590 --> 00:17:05.730 a snack anymore. Recently, it became a profound 00:17:05.730 --> 00:17:07.950 metaphor. We have to talk about that movie. We 00:17:07.950 --> 00:17:11.130 do. Everything, everywhere, all at once. The 00:17:11.130 --> 00:17:14.190 2022 Oscar winner. If you haven't seen it, first 00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:16.579 of all, Pause this deep dive and go watch it 00:17:16.579 --> 00:17:18.839 immediately. Highly recommend. But the central 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:21.980 plot device of this massive sci -fi multiverse 00:17:21.980 --> 00:17:26.200 movie is, of all things, a bagel. And everything 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:29.339 bagel. But the villain of the movie, Jobu Dupaki. 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.200 She takes the name completely literally. Right. 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:34.640 She doesn't just put poppy seeds and coarse salt 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:36.700 on it. No, she puts literally everything on it. 00:17:36.819 --> 00:17:39.279 Every thought, every dimension. Old report cards, 00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.460 dog breeds, Craigslist ads, hopes, dreams, receipts. 00:17:42.539 --> 00:17:45.240 All of it. And the result in the film is that 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:47.640 the bagel becomes so dense that it collapses 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.980 in on itself and creates a literal black hole. 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.759 It becomes this ultimate symbol of total nihilism. 00:17:53.950 --> 00:17:57.009 The character's core philosophy is if you put 00:17:57.009 --> 00:17:59.690 everything on a bagel, then nothing matters. 00:18:00.190 --> 00:18:03.569 The weight of it destroys meaning. It's pure 00:18:03.569 --> 00:18:06.539 sensory overload. Yes. Which honestly, if you 00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:09.319 think about it, brings us full circle right back 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:11.299 to that feeling in the bakery line. It really 00:18:11.299 --> 00:18:13.740 does. It's a brilliant critique of modern life. 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:15.920 We currently have access to everything, right? 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.400 All the time. All the information, all the streaming 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.980 content, all the global flavors all at once. 00:18:21.619 --> 00:18:23.599 And instead of making us incredibly happy and 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:26.059 fulfilled, it sometimes just feels like a black 00:18:26.059 --> 00:18:27.839 hole. It's paralyzing. It feels like nothing 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:30.440 matters because there's just too much of it to 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:32.779 process. That is incredibly deep for a conversation 00:18:32.779 --> 00:18:35.400 that literally started with onions on an oven 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:38.019 floor. I think that's the genuine power of food 00:18:38.019 --> 00:18:42.059 history. Everything bagel started as a humble, 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:45.000 practical solution to scarcity. You know, let's 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.259 use up these scraps so we don't lose money. And 00:18:47.259 --> 00:18:50.220 now, 50 years later, it has evolved into a symbol 00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:53.740 of overwhelming excess. We have too much and 00:18:53.740 --> 00:18:55.740 we're frantically trying to consume it all in 00:18:55.740 --> 00:18:58.519 one single bite. It went from waste not want 00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:01.220 not to just everything all the time. Exactly. 00:19:01.420 --> 00:19:03.819 And I think that is ultimately why it endures 00:19:03.819 --> 00:19:06.339 as a flavor. It speaks directly to that part 00:19:06.339 --> 00:19:08.759 of human nature that just wants it all. We are 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:10.940 greedy. We are. We don't want to choose. We don't 00:19:10.940 --> 00:19:12.940 want to sacrifice the savory onion just to get 00:19:12.940 --> 00:19:15.960 the salty crunch. We want the full maximalist 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.460 experience, even if it leaves us with terrible 00:19:18.460 --> 00:19:20.740 breath and poppy seeds stuck in our teeth. So 00:19:20.740 --> 00:19:23.490 true. All right. So let's wrap this up. We have 00:19:23.490 --> 00:19:26.109 gone from the chemistry of rehydrated garlic 00:19:26.109 --> 00:19:29.309 flakes to the disputed sweepings of David Gusson 00:19:29.309 --> 00:19:31.769 all the way to the philosophy of the multiverse. 00:19:31.930 --> 00:19:34.849 A journey. Truly. What is the big takeaway for 00:19:34.849 --> 00:19:36.990 you from all these sources? For me, it's really 00:19:36.990 --> 00:19:39.029 about the value of looking at everyday things 00:19:39.029 --> 00:19:41.470 differently. How so? Well, whether it was Brandon 00:19:41.470 --> 00:19:43.349 Steiner playing around on the night shift or 00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:46.250 David Gusson sweeping the floor or some anonymous 00:19:46.250 --> 00:19:49.710 baker in Seacet, they all looked at a pile of 00:19:49.710 --> 00:19:52.819 separate totally standard ingredients and saw 00:19:52.819 --> 00:19:54.819 something greater than the sum of his parts. 00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:57.859 Right. They saw synergy in the chaos. And they 00:19:57.859 --> 00:20:01.740 created an icon out of leftovers. It's the ultimate 00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:04.839 culinary remix. It is. Innovation isn't always 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.539 about inventing a brand new molecule in a lab. 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:10.579 Sometimes it's just about taking what is already 00:20:10.579 --> 00:20:13.500 on the table or on the floor and mixing it together 00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:15.700 in a way no one else has quite dared to do yet. 00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:18.400 I love that. Which actually brings me to a final 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:20.480 thought for our listeners to mull over today. 00:20:20.619 --> 00:20:23.160 Let's hear it. Next time you're feeling indecisive 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.279 or you feel like your skills or your interests 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:27.559 are just completely all over the place, maybe 00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:29.799 your accountant who also loves death metal and 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:31.819 community gardening, don't try to separate them. 00:20:31.900 --> 00:20:33.700 Don't force yourself to pick the plain bagel. 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.000 Exactly. Look at the leftovers of your own lives. 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:40.420 The random hobbies, the weird disconnected skills, 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:42.660 the things that don't seem to fit together on 00:20:42.660 --> 00:20:45.960 paper. Maybe, just maybe, if you throw them all 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:47.700 into one pot and give it a catchy name, you're 00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:49.519 not making a mess. You're making an everything 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:53.039 bagel. And that, I think, is a recipe for success. 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:55.319 Thanks for diving in with us today. Now go brush 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:56.480 your teeth. See you next time.