WEBVTT 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.339 Okay, let's unpack this, because usually when 00:00:03.339 --> 00:00:06.860 we think of war, we think of the absolute breakdown 00:00:06.860 --> 00:00:09.439 of law. Right, total chaos. Exactly. It's force. 00:00:10.060 --> 00:00:13.500 It's the end of the rules. But there is this 00:00:13.500 --> 00:00:16.120 whole other universe, this fascinating, slightly 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:19.539 obsessive universe, where war is actually a bureaucracy. 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:23.359 Yes. Where an occupying army isn't just a conqueror. 00:00:23.539 --> 00:00:26.300 They are something much stranger. They are a... 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:28.539 A caretaker. A caretaker with a tank division, 00:00:28.699 --> 00:00:30.940 essentially. Yeah, exactly. Tank division. And 00:00:30.940 --> 00:00:34.039 that specific kenshin is what we are diving into 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:38.039 today. We are looking at the career of Eyal Benvenisti. 00:00:38.299 --> 00:00:41.240 A huge name in this field. Massive. And look, 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:43.560 if you are studying international law or you 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:45.420 just doom -scroll international news on a daily 00:00:45.420 --> 00:00:48.070 basis, you might already know the name. Yeah. 00:00:48.289 --> 00:00:49.950 Because he isn't just a guy who wrote a textbook 00:00:49.950 --> 00:00:52.509 on the subject. He is the guy who wrote the definitive 00:00:52.509 --> 00:00:54.689 textbook on the international law of occupation. 00:00:54.890 --> 00:00:57.609 He really is. And what makes this deep dive so 00:00:57.609 --> 00:01:00.490 compelling for us today is that we have this 00:01:00.490 --> 00:01:03.729 almost perfect narrative arc in the sources we're 00:01:03.729 --> 00:01:06.030 looking at. Oh, for sure. We have his biographical 00:01:06.030 --> 00:01:08.980 data, right? born in Jerusalem, educated at Yale. 00:01:09.780 --> 00:01:12.280 We have his publication lists, which read like 00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:15.620 a masterclass bibliography on how to manage military 00:01:15.620 --> 00:01:19.439 occupation legally. Right. And then we have the 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:22.040 recent career history. His departure from one 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:24.260 of the most prestigious academic chairs in the 00:01:24.260 --> 00:01:26.920 entire world at Cambridge to return to Israel 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:29.200 and actually stand before the International Court 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:31.680 of Justice. It's basically a classic hero's journey, 00:01:31.939 --> 00:01:34.480 just with a lot more footnotes and legal briefs. 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:37.040 Yeah, a lot more footnotes. But our mission here 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:39.519 today is to see how a legal scholar moves from 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:42.640 the ivory tower, from writing theories to the 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:45.400 actual mud of a courtroom in the Hague. And more 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:46.659 importantly, I really want to understand his 00:01:46.659 --> 00:01:49.159 big concept. Sovereignty is trusteeship. Yes, 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:51.900 sovereignty is trusteeship. Because on paper, 00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:54.959 it sounds incredibly noble. But in practice, 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:57.379 it sounds almost impossible to actually enforce. 00:01:57.819 --> 00:02:00.819 It is incredibly difficult. But that has been 00:02:00.819 --> 00:02:03.000 Viniste's life work. He's been trying to impose 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:06.420 legal order on the absolute chaotic reality of 00:02:06.420 --> 00:02:08.979 military control. He is trying to answer that 00:02:08.979 --> 00:02:11.400 core question. When the shooting stops but the 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:14.039 army stays, What are the rules? So let's get 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:15.939 into it. Where does a mind like this actually 00:02:15.939 --> 00:02:18.500 come from? Because looking at the source material, 00:02:18.900 --> 00:02:21.979 he was born right into the thick of it. Israel, 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:25.259 February 18th, 1959. Right. And you really cannot 00:02:25.259 --> 00:02:28.680 ignore the family lineage here. He is the son 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:31.110 of Marin Benveniste. Which is a big deal. It 00:02:31.110 --> 00:02:33.650 is. For anyone who might not be deep into Israeli 00:02:33.650 --> 00:02:36.750 political history, Marin Ben -Denisti was a deputy 00:02:36.750 --> 00:02:39.150 mayor of Jerusalem. He was a very prominent political 00:02:39.150 --> 00:02:41.729 scientist. Right. And he was famously pragmatic, 00:02:42.009 --> 00:02:44.389 sometimes pessimistic about the Israeli -Palestinian 00:02:44.389 --> 00:02:46.849 conflict. He dealt directly with the nitty gritty 00:02:46.849 --> 00:02:49.669 of municipal administration in a heavily divided 00:02:49.669 --> 00:02:53.550 city. So that is crucial context for us. AL grows 00:02:53.550 --> 00:02:55.909 up in an environment where conflict isn't just 00:02:55.909 --> 00:02:58.110 a news segment you watch on TV. It's literally 00:02:58.110 --> 00:03:01.080 a dinner table conversation about zoning laws, 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.439 water rights, municipal borders. Exactly. He 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:07.360 is breathing the stuff in way before he ever 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:09.599 steps foot in a law school. It grounds him in 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:11.979 the reality of it. It really does. So he gets 00:03:11.979 --> 00:03:14.360 his LLB from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:17.560 in 1984. But then he makes the move that a lot 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:20.240 of very ambitious legal minds make. He heads 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:22.919 to the U .S. He heads to the U .S. He lands at 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:24.979 Yale Law School. And this is where we see the 00:03:24.979 --> 00:03:27.759 first major pivot in his trajectory. He earns 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:30.520 his master's in law there in 1988, and then he 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:32.979 finishes his JSD, which is the Doctor of the 00:03:32.979 --> 00:03:36.180 Science of Law, in 1990. Now, I want to just 00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:38.659 pause for a second on that specific year, 1990. 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:40.800 It's a very pivotal year to be writing about 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:44.340 this. Think about the global vibe in 1990. The 00:03:44.340 --> 00:03:46.500 Berlin Wall has just come down. The Soviet Union 00:03:46.500 --> 00:03:48.979 is crumbling. You have scholars talking about 00:03:48.979 --> 00:03:51.060 the end of history, the ultimate triumph of liberal 00:03:51.060 --> 00:03:53.889 democracy. Everyone is celebrating peace. And 00:03:53.889 --> 00:03:56.110 what is Ben Veniste writing his doctoral thesis 00:03:56.110 --> 00:03:58.750 on? He is writing a thesis titled Conflict of 00:03:58.750 --> 00:04:01.669 Laws and Belligerent Occupationist Study in International 00:04:01.669 --> 00:04:04.389 and Comparative Law. Belligerent occupation? 00:04:04.590 --> 00:04:07.289 Yes! I mean, it feels almost counterintuitive 00:04:07.289 --> 00:04:11.169 for the overwhelming optimism of 1990. It's like 00:04:11.169 --> 00:04:13.490 showing up to a wedding in a hazmat suit. It 00:04:13.490 --> 00:04:15.889 really does feel that way. But looking back at 00:04:15.889 --> 00:04:18.759 the sources, it was incredibly prescient. While 00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:20.720 the rest of the world was throwing a party for 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:23.060 the end of the Cold War, Benvenis was looking 00:04:23.060 --> 00:04:26.040 hard at the legal structures of military control. 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:28.879 He was looking at the cracks. Yes. He was asking 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:30.740 a question that most people honestly thought 00:04:30.740 --> 00:04:34.240 was becoming obsolete. When an army takes over 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:37.860 a territory, what law actually applies? Is it 00:04:37.860 --> 00:04:40.740 the law of the occupied state? Is it the law 00:04:40.740 --> 00:04:44.019 of the occupier? Or is it international law? 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.160 And the fascinating thing is... He didn't just 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.160 leave that theory sitting on a shelf in the Yale 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:50.259 Library. He takes all that expertise and goes 00:04:50.259 --> 00:04:52.519 right back home. He returns to Jerusalem to teach 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:54.860 at Hebrew University. Right. And looking at his 00:04:54.860 --> 00:04:57.079 CV from the sources, he wasn't just lecturing. 00:04:57.279 --> 00:04:59.019 He was the director of the Minerva Center for 00:04:59.019 --> 00:05:02.100 Human Rights from 2000 to 2002. And that role 00:05:02.100 --> 00:05:04.839 is so important because it shows he wasn't purely 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:07.439 what you'd call a state lawyer. The Minerva Center 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:09.860 focuses heavily on human rights, so that suggests 00:05:09.860 --> 00:05:11.740 he was already looking at how the dry letter 00:05:11.740 --> 00:05:14.660 of international law impacts actual flesh and 00:05:14.660 --> 00:05:16.399 blood people on the ground. He's making that 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:19.199 connection early. Very early. He was bridging 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:22.939 that massive gap between state security and individual 00:05:22.939 --> 00:05:25.399 rights. Which leads us perfectly into what I 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:27.680 think is the real meat and potatoes of this deep 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:30.379 dive. We have to talk about his big idea. The 00:05:30.379 --> 00:05:33.500 sources specifically list his notable idea as 00:05:33.500 --> 00:05:36.420 sovereignty as trusteeship. This is the crucial 00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:39.100 concept. If you take one single thing away from 00:05:39.100 --> 00:05:41.899 Benveniste's work today, it should be this idea. 00:05:42.139 --> 00:05:44.480 Okay, but let's be real for a second. Sovereignty 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:46.339 as trusteeship sounds like something you'd hear 00:05:46.339 --> 00:05:48.980 a professor drone on about in a dusty lecture 00:05:48.980 --> 00:05:51.819 hall, and you would immediately zone out. Can 00:05:51.819 --> 00:05:54.319 we translate that? What does it actually mean 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:56.240 in plain English for you and me? Okay, let's 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.620 break it down. It represents a radical shift 00:05:58.620 --> 00:06:01.920 in how we view state power. Traditionally, the 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:04.819 old Westphalian view of sovereignty is all about 00:06:04.819 --> 00:06:08.600 ownership. If a state is sovereign over a territory, 00:06:09.100 --> 00:06:12.600 it's the king in his castle. My land, my rules, 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:16.220 get off my lawn. Right. absolute unchecked authority 00:06:16.220 --> 00:06:19.459 over a space. Exactly. But Ben Viniste challenges 00:06:19.459 --> 00:06:23.139 that entirely. He argues for sovereignty as trusteeship. 00:06:23.579 --> 00:06:26.300 So think of a trustee handling an inheritance 00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:29.439 for a child. The trustee holds the money. They 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:31.500 have the power to spend it. They sign all the 00:06:31.500 --> 00:06:33.720 checks. They make the investment decisions. But... 00:06:33.870 --> 00:06:36.389 And this is the absolute key. They do not own 00:06:36.389 --> 00:06:38.329 it for themselves. Right. They hold it for the 00:06:38.329 --> 00:06:40.129 benefit of the child. Precisely. They have a 00:06:40.129 --> 00:06:42.870 fiduciary duty. So Benveniste is saying that 00:06:42.870 --> 00:06:45.329 a government holding territory, and this is especially 00:06:45.329 --> 00:06:47.689 true for occupied territory, isn't the owner. 00:06:48.089 --> 00:06:50.589 They are just the caretaker. Oh, wow. I see. 00:06:50.629 --> 00:06:52.569 So you are telling an occupying power, you're 00:06:52.569 --> 00:06:54.389 telling a general, that they are essentially 00:06:54.389 --> 00:06:57.050 just the executor of an estate. That is exactly 00:06:57.050 --> 00:06:59.589 what he's arguing. It completely redefines power 00:06:59.589 --> 00:07:02.720 as a responsibility instead of a right. If you 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:05.060 are an occupying power acting as a temporary 00:07:05.060 --> 00:07:07.300 sovereign, you hold that power and trust for 00:07:07.300 --> 00:07:09.060 the benefit of the local people living there. 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:12.480 That is a massive conceptual shift. It is. It 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.360 means you can't just exploit the local resources 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:17.819 for your own economic gain. You can't settle 00:07:17.819 --> 00:07:20.360 your own citizens there at the expense of the 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:22.620 local population. You are essentially just keeping 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.939 the seat warm until the beneficiary, the occupied 00:07:25.939 --> 00:07:28.839 people can take over and rule themselves. That 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:31.040 is such a heavy burden to place on a government, 00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:32.980 especially right in the middle of a conflict 00:07:32.980 --> 00:07:36.259 zone. You're telling an army they have a fiduciary 00:07:36.259 --> 00:07:38.040 duty to the people they might have just been 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.410 fighting. It is a heavy burden, and that is exactly 00:07:41.410 --> 00:07:44.269 why his work is so incredibly influential. It 00:07:44.269 --> 00:07:47.329 attempts to add a very stripped moral and legal 00:07:47.329 --> 00:07:50.529 constraint to raw military power. And he didn't 00:07:50.529 --> 00:07:52.269 just toss this out in a blog post somewhere, 00:07:52.449 --> 00:07:55.269 he codified this entire framework in what is 00:07:55.420 --> 00:07:57.639 or you believe the definitive text on the subject. 00:07:57.899 --> 00:07:59.920 Right. The International Law of Occupation. This 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:02.240 book pops up everywhere in our sources. Originally 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:05.060 published by Princeton University Press in 1993. 00:08:05.339 --> 00:08:07.399 Then there was a paperback edition with a new 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:10.579 preface in 2004. And our sources mention a second 00:08:10.579 --> 00:08:13.019 edition forthcoming from Oxford University Press. 00:08:13.449 --> 00:08:17.110 This book is the Bible for anyone studying this 00:08:17.110 --> 00:08:20.189 specific field. It really cemented his status 00:08:20.189 --> 00:08:23.470 globally. Absolutely. If you are a military lawyer, 00:08:23.689 --> 00:08:26.370 a diplomat, or a commander dealing with a prolonged 00:08:26.370 --> 00:08:29.089 occupation anywhere in the world, you have likely 00:08:29.089 --> 00:08:32.639 read Benveniste. And he didn't stop there. The 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.919 sources show he also wrote legal dualism, the 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:38.220 absorption of the occupied territories into Israel 00:08:38.220 --> 00:08:41.860 back in 1989. Plus, another highly specific work 00:08:41.860 --> 00:08:44.059 on the legal status of lands acquired by Israelis 00:08:44.059 --> 00:08:47.220 before 1948 in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and 00:08:47.220 --> 00:08:50.120 East Jerusalem. He has really examined every 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.179 single square inch of this legal territory. He 00:08:52.179 --> 00:08:54.940 has. And what might stand out to you is the specificity 00:08:54.940 --> 00:08:57.100 of those topics. But what stands out to me when 00:08:57.100 --> 00:08:59.299 I read through his publication list is the consistency. 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:03.279 From 1989 all the way to the present day, he 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:05.960 has been arguing that the law matters even in 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:09.019 the absolute chaos of an occupation. He insists 00:09:09.019 --> 00:09:11.320 that there are rules and those rules are based 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:14.600 on this core idea of trusteeship. You cannot 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:16.820 simply erase the rights of the people living 00:09:16.820 --> 00:09:19.240 under your control. But let's play devil's advocate 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:22.039 here for a minute. Is this actually enforceable 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:24.960 in the real world or is it just a really nice 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:27.960 academic theory? Because the sources show he 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:30.440 knows the reality on the ground better than almost 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.379 anyone. He knows that temporary occupations can 00:09:33.379 --> 00:09:36.580 last for decades. That is the main critique he 00:09:36.580 --> 00:09:39.179 often faces, and honestly it's a critique he 00:09:39.179 --> 00:09:41.980 actively engages with in his work. He knows very 00:09:41.980 --> 00:09:44.600 well that the label of trusteeship can be used 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:47.029 as a mask. Right, like a cover story. Exactly. 00:09:47.090 --> 00:09:49.350 If you call yourself a trustee, you can try to 00:09:49.350 --> 00:09:51.009 justify staying there forever, just claiming, 00:09:51.070 --> 00:09:53.169 oh, the beneficiary isn't ready to rule themselves 00:09:53.169 --> 00:09:56.090 yet. That is the old colonial mindset, the white 00:09:56.090 --> 00:09:58.470 man's burden. Yeah. We're just here helping you 00:09:58.470 --> 00:10:00.730 out until you're ready. And meanwhile, 50 years 00:10:00.730 --> 00:10:03.909 pass by. Right. But Benveniste's counter argument 00:10:03.909 --> 00:10:06.429 is that without the legal framework of trusteeship, 00:10:06.809 --> 00:10:09.840 all you have left is naked conquest. Which is 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:12.259 why it makes right. Exactly. At least with the 00:10:12.259 --> 00:10:14.259 trusteeship model, there is a legal standard 00:10:14.259 --> 00:10:16.799 you can hold the occupier to. You can drag them 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:19.639 into a court and say, you breached your fiduciary 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:22.360 duty. It gives the international community a 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:24.659 vocabulary to actually challenge that power. 00:10:25.419 --> 00:10:27.200 Speaking of things you can drag people to court 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:29.700 over, let's shift gears slightly and talk about 00:10:29.700 --> 00:10:33.409 physical stuff. Resources. Because Ben Benesty 00:10:33.409 --> 00:10:36.070 didn't just stay in the lane of war and occupation, 00:10:36.490 --> 00:10:38.710 the sources highlight another major focus of 00:10:38.710 --> 00:10:41.129 his. Yes, his work on shared resources. Right. 00:10:41.330 --> 00:10:43.850 He wrote Sharing Transboundary Resources, International 00:10:43.850 --> 00:10:46.870 Law, and Optimal Resource Use, published by Cambridge 00:10:46.870 --> 00:10:49.789 University Press in 2002. This is where he broadens 00:10:49.789 --> 00:10:52.379 his scope significantly. But if we connect this 00:10:52.379 --> 00:10:54.460 to the bigger picture of his career, it is the 00:10:54.460 --> 00:10:57.360 exact same underlying philosophy. The trusteeship 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:00.440 idea again. Yes. Just as a state is a trustee 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:02.620 for the people living in a territory, states 00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:05.179 that share a river or an aquifer are trustees 00:11:05.179 --> 00:11:07.779 for that resource. Which sounds incredibly relevant 00:11:07.779 --> 00:11:10.480 today. I mean, you look at water wars, climate 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:13.740 change. Usually, a country's attitude is, well, 00:11:13.860 --> 00:11:16.080 the river flows through my land. I can build 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.240 a dam if I want to. Right. That's known as the 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.500 Harmon Doctrine, total absolute territorial sovereignty. 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:24.620 But Benveniste completely rejects that approach. 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:28.139 He argues that international law dictates cooperation 00:11:28.139 --> 00:11:31.159 and optimal shared use. So you don't own the 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.120 water. You don't own the molecules of water, 00:11:33.259 --> 00:11:36.220 no. You manage the flow. You have a legal duty 00:11:36.220 --> 00:11:38.679 to your neighbor downstream. It is that theme 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:40.940 of responsibility coming up again. You can't 00:11:40.940 --> 00:11:43.220 just take your ball and go home. It's fascinating 00:11:43.220 --> 00:11:46.080 how consistent his worldview is. Whether he's 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:47.700 talking about a soldier managing a conquered 00:11:47.700 --> 00:11:50.000 town or a government managing a shared river, 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:53.679 he is entirely obsessed with the idea that power 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:56.289 has limits and neighbors have rights. It really 00:11:56.289 --> 00:11:58.330 is a philosophy of total interdependence. And 00:11:58.330 --> 00:12:00.590 he extends this to legal institutions as well. 00:12:00.929 --> 00:12:02.870 We see in the sources that he's written extensively 00:12:02.870 --> 00:12:05.169 on global governance, articles like national 00:12:05.169 --> 00:12:07.309 courts, domestic democracy, and the evolution 00:12:07.309 --> 00:12:09.370 of international law. Break that down for us 00:12:09.370 --> 00:12:12.429 a bit, because national courts and domestic democracy 00:12:12.429 --> 00:12:14.990 sounds a little dry, but I feel like there's 00:12:14.990 --> 00:12:16.950 something really important hiding in there. There 00:12:16.950 --> 00:12:19.470 is. It's actually fascinating. He looks at how 00:12:19.470 --> 00:12:22.029 domestic judges, so say a Supreme Court judge 00:12:22.029 --> 00:12:25.070 in Israel or in the UK or Canada, how they interact 00:12:25.070 --> 00:12:27.669 with international rules. OK. He argues that 00:12:27.669 --> 00:12:29.889 national courts are increasingly becoming the 00:12:29.889 --> 00:12:32.669 actual enforcers of international law. They are 00:12:32.669 --> 00:12:34.350 the ones who have to check their own domestic 00:12:34.350 --> 00:12:37.190 governments. He wants a dialogue between courts 00:12:37.190 --> 00:12:39.649 across borders. So he doesn't want international 00:12:39.649 --> 00:12:41.929 law to just be a bunch of diplomats whispering 00:12:41.929 --> 00:12:44.669 in a room in Geneva. Exactly. He wants it cited 00:12:44.669 --> 00:12:47.049 in local courtrooms to stop government overreach 00:12:47.049 --> 00:12:50.049 right at the source. He is empowering the local 00:12:50.049 --> 00:12:53.210 judges to be the guardians of these massive international 00:12:53.210 --> 00:12:55.950 standards. He is, and he had the perfect platform 00:12:55.950 --> 00:12:58.470 to push these ideas out into the world. He was 00:12:58.470 --> 00:13:00.730 the founding co -editor and later editor -in 00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:04.129 -chief of Theoretical Inquiries in Law. He also 00:13:04.129 --> 00:13:06.070 served on the editorial board of the American 00:13:06.070 --> 00:13:08.769 Journal of International Law. Which is huge. 00:13:09.129 --> 00:13:12.149 Being an editor that level means you are a gatekeeper 00:13:12.149 --> 00:13:15.220 of ideas. You are shaping the entire direction 00:13:15.220 --> 00:13:17.559 of legal scholarship. So by the time we get to 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:20.820 the mid 2010s, Ben Finiste isn't just a participant 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:23.740 in the conversation, he is practically hosting 00:13:23.740 --> 00:13:26.519 the conversation. Which brings us to the next 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:29.159 major chapter in his life. Let's call it the 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:32.960 Cambridge era. In May 2015, he gets the big call. 00:13:33.379 --> 00:13:36.000 He is appointed the Weedwell Professor of International 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.909 Law at the University of Cambridge. We really 00:13:38.909 --> 00:13:42.070 need to pause on this because the We Well Professorship 00:13:42.070 --> 00:13:45.970 isn't just a job title. It is an absolute institution 00:13:45.970 --> 00:13:48.009 in the legal world. Right. It goes way back. 00:13:48.230 --> 00:13:50.250 Established in the 19th century. And look at 00:13:50.250 --> 00:13:52.850 who he succeeded. He took over from James Crawford. 00:13:52.929 --> 00:13:55.009 Who was James Crawford for the listener who might 00:13:55.009 --> 00:13:57.629 not know? James Crawford was an absolute titan 00:13:57.629 --> 00:14:00.049 in international law. He literally drafted the 00:14:00.049 --> 00:14:03.230 articles on state responsibility. And then when 00:14:03.230 --> 00:14:05.850 Ben Veniste eventually left the chair, he was 00:14:05.850 --> 00:14:08.409 succeeded by Jan Clavers. These are the biggest 00:14:08.409 --> 00:14:10.509 names in the business. So to be selected for 00:14:10.509 --> 00:14:13.110 this chair is essentially the academic equivalent. 00:14:13.100 --> 00:14:15.879 of being knighted. It really is. And while he 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.299 was there, the sources note he also served as 00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:21.019 the director of the Lodder Pat Center for International 00:14:21.019 --> 00:14:24.320 Law. So he really settled into the British academic 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:26.879 aristocracy, but he didn't just stay in the UK. 00:14:27.779 --> 00:14:30.240 The sources list this massive global footprint 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.840 of visiting professorships. Oh, he was everywhere. 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:36.899 Harvard, Columbia, Michigan, Penn, Toronto, Hamburg, 00:14:37.580 --> 00:14:40.320 the Max Planck Institute in Heidelberg. The man 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:42.820 was in incredibly high demand. And the major 00:14:42.820 --> 00:14:46.340 awards followed him too. In 2012, he won an advanced 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:48.279 grant from the European Research Council. That 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:50.860 is not small change. Not at all. Those grants 00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:53.620 are specifically for leading researchers to pursue 00:14:53.620 --> 00:14:56.440 groundbreaking, high -risk projects. It really 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:58.919 confirms that his work on sovereignty and occupation 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.480 was considered vital research for Europe and 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:04.059 for the world. So picture this. It is the early 00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:06.960 2020s. Eyal Benveniste is at the absolute top 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:10.070 of his game. We well professor it came. Director 00:15:10.070 --> 00:15:12.129 of a prestigious center, books on the shelves 00:15:12.129 --> 00:15:14.370 everywhere. He has the golden ticket. He does. 00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:16.429 He could have just stayed there, right? Sipping 00:15:16.429 --> 00:15:18.669 key, writing the third edition of his book, and 00:15:18.669 --> 00:15:21.009 retiring in absolute glory. He certainly could 00:15:21.009 --> 00:15:23.149 have. He had reached the absolute tentacle of 00:15:23.149 --> 00:15:26.330 the ivory tower. But this is where the story 00:15:26.330 --> 00:15:29.429 in Our Sources takes a very sharp turn back to 00:15:29.429 --> 00:15:31.730 the real world. The return. Let's talk about 00:15:31.730 --> 00:15:35.190 the return. In 2023, we see him getting deeply 00:15:35.190 --> 00:15:37.870 involved in domestic issues back in Israel. He 00:15:37.870 --> 00:15:40.269 becomes a member of the Israeli Law Professor's 00:15:40.269 --> 00:15:43.149 Forum for Democracy. Context is really key here. 00:15:43.629 --> 00:15:46.830 2023 was an incredibly tumultuous year in Israel 00:15:46.830 --> 00:15:49.629 domestically. There were massive public protests 00:15:49.629 --> 00:15:52.169 and huge debates regarding the government coalition's 00:15:52.169 --> 00:15:54.830 plans for changes in the legal system. And Ben 00:15:54.830 --> 00:15:57.490 Veniste, despite sitting comfortably in Cambridge, 00:15:58.110 --> 00:16:01.190 engaged directly with this. The forum was established 00:16:01.190 --> 00:16:03.649 specifically to respond to those coalition plans. 00:16:03.889 --> 00:16:05.470 It connects right back to his work on national 00:16:05.470 --> 00:16:07.929 courts, doesn't it? He spent years writing about 00:16:07.929 --> 00:16:10.269 how local courts protect democracy and enforce 00:16:10.269 --> 00:16:13.049 international standards. And now he felt that 00:16:13.049 --> 00:16:15.110 protection was under threat in his own country. 00:16:15.350 --> 00:16:17.309 Exactly. It wasn't just a theoretical exercise 00:16:17.309 --> 00:16:19.610 in a journal anymore. He saw the guardrails he 00:16:19.610 --> 00:16:22.070 wrote about being actively tested. So in 2024, 00:16:22.070 --> 00:16:24.590 he makes a massive move. He resigns from the 00:16:24.590 --> 00:16:27.330 way wall chair. Which is huge. You just do not 00:16:27.330 --> 00:16:29.590 walk away from the way wall chair. No, you don't. 00:16:29.610 --> 00:16:33.370 But he does. He leaves Cambridge and moves back 00:16:33.370 --> 00:16:35.950 to live in Israel. He dives right back into the 00:16:35.950 --> 00:16:39.090 domestic fray. But then, as we know, the scope 00:16:39.090 --> 00:16:42.230 of the region widens even further. The war in 00:16:42.230 --> 00:16:45.509 Gaza begins. Right. And suddenly, Ayel Ben Venisti 00:16:45.509 --> 00:16:48.330 is back in the global spotlight. But this time, 00:16:48.730 --> 00:16:52.149 not as a professor grading papers. The ICJ appearance. 00:16:52.190 --> 00:16:53.889 We have to talk about this because it feels like 00:16:53.889 --> 00:16:55.950 the climax of the story. It is the culmination 00:16:55.950 --> 00:16:57.429 of everything we have discussed today. Think 00:16:57.429 --> 00:16:59.809 about it. The young student who wrote his thesis 00:16:59.809 --> 00:17:03.409 on belligerent occupation in 1990 finds himself 00:17:03.409 --> 00:17:05.609 standing before the International Court of Justice 00:17:05.609 --> 00:17:08.990 in The Hague more than 30 years later. The sources 00:17:08.990 --> 00:17:11.269 confirm he represented Israel in the case brought 00:17:11.269 --> 00:17:13.890 by South Africa, the application of the Convention 00:17:13.890 --> 00:17:15.809 on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:18.559 Yes. And just to give context without taking 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:21.259 any sides, this case arose out of Israel's conduct 00:17:21.259 --> 00:17:24.240 concerning the war in Gaza. It is arguably the 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.079 most high profile, emotionally charged, and legally 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:30.119 complex case of the entire decade. And regardless 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:32.420 of where you, the listener, stand on the politics 00:17:32.420 --> 00:17:34.359 of that conflict, just think about the weight 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:37.359 of that moment for him personally as a scholar. 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:40.750 It is profound. He has spent his entire life 00:17:40.750 --> 00:17:43.390 studying the theoretical limits of power. He 00:17:43.390 --> 00:17:45.630 defined the modern laws of war. He literally 00:17:45.630 --> 00:17:49.230 wrote the textbook on occupation. And now he 00:17:49.230 --> 00:17:51.849 is standing in the Great Hall of Justice applying 00:17:51.849 --> 00:17:54.450 those exact theories in real time defense of 00:17:54.450 --> 00:17:57.640 his country during an active brutal conflict. 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.640 It feels like the ultimate test of his sovereignty 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.319 as trusteeship idea, doesn't it? Because when 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:05.299 you are in a courtroom, you aren't a neutral 00:18:05.299 --> 00:18:07.619 trustee anymore. You aren't just an academic 00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:10.440 observing from above. You are a partisan advocate. 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:12.759 You have to win for your client. That is the 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:15.000 ultimate tension here. When you are an academic, 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:18.059 you deal in hypotheticals. If state A does X, 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:21.539 then law Y applies. It's clean. But the ICJ is 00:18:21.539 --> 00:18:24.119 not a hypothetical. Far from it. Standing there, 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:25.920 representing a nation accused of the gravest 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.480 crime in international law, that is messy reality. 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:31.039 He had to take his highly nuanced theories about 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:33.279 the duties of a commander and the rights of civilians 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:35.700 and apply them to an incredibly complex war. 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.539 It really brings the whole journey full circle, 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:41.799 from being the son of Marin Benvidisti in the 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:44.339 municipal politics of Jerusalem to the halls 00:18:44.339 --> 00:18:47.039 of Yale, the cloisters of Cambridge, and finally, 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:50.039 arguing in the courtroom in The Hague. It creates 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:53.000 a completely fascinating narrative arc. He started 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:55.140 his career by defining the rules of the game, 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:57.640 and he ended up as a key player on the field 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.099 during the championship match, so to speak. Yeah. 00:19:00.500 --> 00:19:03.440 And regardless of the outcome, his presence there 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.200 signals something important. It shows that the 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:08.039 state was engaging with the international court 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:10.920 on the basis of law. They didn't just ignore 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:13.839 the court. They sent their absolute heavyweight 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:16.900 scholar to argue the technicalities of the convention. 00:19:17.130 --> 00:19:20.349 So looking back at this entire deep dive, we 00:19:20.349 --> 00:19:22.390 have a scholar who didn't just watch history 00:19:22.390 --> 00:19:25.230 happen from the sidelines, he actively tried 00:19:25.230 --> 00:19:27.619 to build the guardrails for it. That is a beautiful 00:19:27.619 --> 00:19:29.960 way to put it. Guardrails. He built concepts 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:32.599 like trusteeship, the specific duties of the 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:35.160 occupant, the legal management of shared resources. 00:19:35.420 --> 00:19:37.660 He spent a career trying to ensure that when 00:19:37.660 --> 00:19:40.680 nations clash, which they inevitably will, the 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:43.759 law doesn't just vanish. He insists that we must 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:46.420 have a vocabulary to criticize power, because 00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:48.720 without concepts like sovereignty as trusteeship, 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.039 we wouldn't even have the legal tools to say 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:53.400 an occupation is unjust. We would just look at 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:55.099 it and say, well, they won the war too bad. But 00:19:55.099 --> 00:19:56.950 guardrails are only ever as good as the drivers. 00:19:57.309 --> 00:20:00.130 Indeed. And that is the tension he lives in every 00:20:00.130 --> 00:20:03.130 day. The tension between the elegant, clean logic 00:20:03.130 --> 00:20:06.349 of international law and the incredibly messy, 00:20:06.690 --> 00:20:09.970 brutal reality of war. Benveniste knows better 00:20:09.970 --> 00:20:12.710 than anyone that the law often fails. He knows 00:20:12.710 --> 00:20:16.230 occupiers rarely act like perfect trustees. But 00:20:16.230 --> 00:20:18.690 the persistence of the attempt to create order 00:20:18.690 --> 00:20:22.329 out of that chaos. That is his true legacy. We've 00:20:22.329 --> 00:20:24.529 covered a lot today. His origins in Jerusalem, 00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:27.190 his big ideas on sovereignty, his global tour 00:20:27.190 --> 00:20:29.369 of the finest universities, and his dramatic 00:20:29.369 --> 00:20:31.970 return to the legal front lines. Ale Benvenisi 00:20:31.970 --> 00:20:34.089 isn't just a name in a footnote somewhere. He 00:20:34.089 --> 00:20:36.490 is a pivotal figure in understanding how the 00:20:36.490 --> 00:20:39.049 world actually tries to maintain order. And he 00:20:39.049 --> 00:20:41.569 reminds us that international law isn't static. 00:20:41.829 --> 00:20:44.589 It's not just a dusty treaty. It evolves through 00:20:44.589 --> 00:20:46.829 people like him, through their books, their teaching, 00:20:46.930 --> 00:20:49.349 and their real world arguments in court. Exactly. 00:20:49.390 --> 00:20:51.829 It's a living, breathing thing. It really is. 00:20:52.049 --> 00:20:53.930 Well, we've reached the end of this deep dive. 00:20:54.289 --> 00:20:57.869 We've gone from 1959 to 2024, from pure theory 00:20:57.869 --> 00:21:00.390 to the harshest practice. It's been quite a journey. 00:21:00.930 --> 00:21:03.450 But before we go, I want to leave you, the listener, 00:21:04.029 --> 00:21:06.369 with something to think about. We talked a lot 00:21:06.369 --> 00:21:09.089 today about Ben Venisti's core philosophy sovereignty 00:21:09.089 --> 00:21:12.230 as trusteeship, this idea that a government holds 00:21:12.230 --> 00:21:14.269 power and trust for the benefit of the people. 00:21:14.369 --> 00:21:17.200 It's a very noble ideal. It is. But here's the 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:19.380 question you have to ask yourself. Right. If 00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:23.220 sovereignty is indeed a trustee ship, what happens 00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:26.200 when that trust is tested in the absolute crucible 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:29.259 of modern conflict? Right. When the nation feels 00:21:29.259 --> 00:21:32.960 its very survival is on the line, can international 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:36.059 law truly enforce that responsibility? Or does 00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:38.859 the trustee inevitably revert to being just the 00:21:38.859 --> 00:21:41.119 owner when the chips are down? That is the question 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:43.539 that will likely define the next century of international 00:21:43.539 --> 00:21:46.279 law. Something for you to mull over. Thanks for 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:47.859 joining us on this deep dive. We'll see you next 00:21:47.859 --> 00:21:48.019 time.