WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.200 Okay, I want you to picture two completely different 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:05.559 scenes for a second. Scene one, you are flipping 00:00:05.559 --> 00:00:07.900 through channels late at night and you land on 00:00:07.900 --> 00:00:10.900 a local wrestling show. Right. There is a guy 00:00:10.900 --> 00:00:15.400 in the ring and he is technically flawless. He 00:00:15.400 --> 00:00:17.559 is following every single rule. He's grappling 00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:20.079 with honor. He just looks like a pure, dedicated 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:22.820 athlete. Okay, got it. Scene one is purely a 00:00:22.820 --> 00:00:25.739 sport. Right. Now scene two, you flip the channel 00:00:25.739 --> 00:00:28.160 over to a major cable news network. I'm talking 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:32.109 CNN. Fox News, the big leagues. The prime time 00:00:32.109 --> 00:00:35.090 slots. Exactly. And there is a guy in a sharp 00:00:35.090 --> 00:00:37.729 suit and tie sitting across from a very serious 00:00:37.729 --> 00:00:40.729 anchor debating state immigration policy. Yeah. 00:00:40.789 --> 00:00:43.590 He is intense. He is highly polarizing. And the 00:00:43.590 --> 00:00:45.729 chyron right at the bottom of the screen identifies 00:00:45.729 --> 00:00:48.149 him as the son of a state governor. Two very, 00:00:48.210 --> 00:00:50.049 very different worlds. One is pure entertainment 00:00:50.049 --> 00:00:53.250 and one is, well, supposedly serious real world 00:00:53.250 --> 00:00:55.490 political discourse. Right. But here is the kicker. 00:00:55.710 --> 00:00:58.509 It is the exact same guy. And that right there 00:00:58.509 --> 00:01:00.810 is the hook for today. That is the paradox we 00:01:00.810 --> 00:01:02.789 are unpacking. Welcome back to the Deep Dive. 00:01:02.810 --> 00:01:05.030 Today, we are looking at the absolutely wild 00:01:05.030 --> 00:01:07.569 career of John Stagikis. Now, depending on who 00:01:07.569 --> 00:01:10.689 you ask, he is either a technical wrestling wizard 00:01:10.689 --> 00:01:14.469 known as John Walters, or he is one of the most 00:01:14.469 --> 00:01:16.790 hated political villains of the last decade, 00:01:17.310 --> 00:01:20.739 R .J. Brewer. And just to set the stage for you 00:01:20.739 --> 00:01:22.739 listening, the sources we have for this deep 00:01:22.739 --> 00:01:25.239 dive are fascinating. We aren't just looking 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:28.120 at old wrestling match results or fan forums. 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:31.260 We are looking at actual broadcast clips from 00:01:31.260 --> 00:01:33.659 ABC Nightline. We have articles from the L .A. 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:36.219 Times and even Harper's Magazine. Which are definitely 00:01:36.219 --> 00:01:39.349 not the places you usually find. No, usually 00:01:39.349 --> 00:01:41.689 you find them in the sports section or, sadly, 00:01:41.849 --> 00:01:44.730 the obituary column. But Stajica's managed to 00:01:44.730 --> 00:01:46.849 break out of the wrestling bubble, what people 00:01:46.849 --> 00:01:49.489 in the industry call kayfabe, and he actually 00:01:49.489 --> 00:01:52.629 infiltrated the real -world news cycle. And that 00:01:52.629 --> 00:01:55.030 is exactly what I want to figure out today. How 00:01:55.030 --> 00:01:57.170 does a guy go from being an anonymous silent 00:01:57.170 --> 00:02:00.569 druid holding a torch for The Undertaker to debating 00:02:00.569 --> 00:02:03.390 seasoned pundits on national television? It just 00:02:03.390 --> 00:02:05.049 feels like a glitch in the matrix. It really 00:02:05.049 --> 00:02:07.030 does. But when you look closely at the timeline, 00:02:07.170 --> 00:02:09.569 it is actually a masterclass in psychology and 00:02:09.569 --> 00:02:12.050 media manipulation. But to really get it, we 00:02:12.050 --> 00:02:14.629 have to go way back to understand the raw material 00:02:14.629 --> 00:02:16.870 he was working with. Because before he was a 00:02:16.870 --> 00:02:19.460 villain or a ring general. He was just a kid 00:02:19.460 --> 00:02:21.580 in Framingham, Massachusetts. Yeah, looking at 00:02:21.580 --> 00:02:24.259 the biographical data here, he wasn't one of 00:02:24.259 --> 00:02:26.539 those kids doing backyard wrestling backflips 00:02:26.539 --> 00:02:29.120 off the couch. He was strictly a football player. 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:31.680 A very dedicated one, too. He was a wide receiver 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:35.300 at Framingham High. He graduated in 97 and went 00:02:35.300 --> 00:02:37.620 straight on to play at Assumption College in 00:02:37.620 --> 00:02:40.080 Worcester. By all accounts, he was building his 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:42.580 entire life around the gridiron. So what actually 00:02:42.580 --> 00:02:44.520 happened there? Did he just wake up one day and 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:46.479 decide he liked spandex better than shoulder 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:48.560 pads? No, it wasn't a choice at all, actually. 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:51.080 It was a completely forced pivot. In his junior 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:53.400 year life, threw a massive flag on the play. 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:57.180 He developed a cyst on his neck. A cyst? That 00:02:57.180 --> 00:02:59.680 sounds pretty uncomfortable, but is that really 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:02.340 career -ending? For a wide receiver taking hits, 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:04.939 this one absolutely was. It required significant 00:03:04.939 --> 00:03:07.900 surgery. And just like that, the whole football 00:03:07.900 --> 00:03:10.879 dream was over. Man, that is just rough. I mean, 00:03:10.900 --> 00:03:12.599 you spend your whole teenage life identifying 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.360 as one single thing. You wake up every day saying, 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:18.159 I am a football player. And then a doctor just 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:19.860 looks at you and tells you, no, you aren't anymore. 00:03:20.060 --> 00:03:21.960 It's the kind of identity crisis that breaks 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.960 a lot of people. But Stajica's graduated with 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:27.479 a communications degree in 2001 and immediately 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:30.159 shifted all that athletic drive into something 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:33.120 else. Right. And he didn't just join some low 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:36.000 -level backyard wrestling league either. He went 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:39.379 to basically the Harvard of wrestling schools. 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:42.219 Which is? Killer Kowalski School over in Malden, 00:03:42.300 --> 00:03:44.020 Massachusetts. Okay, I definitely know that name. 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:46.689 Killer Kowalski. Just the name sounds terrifying. 00:03:47.150 --> 00:03:50.569 He was a total legend, a real golden era villain. 00:03:50.810 --> 00:03:53.370 And training under Kowalski meant you weren't 00:03:53.370 --> 00:03:55.189 just learning how to fall down on a mat without 00:03:55.189 --> 00:03:56.889 getting hurt. You're learning the psychology. 00:03:57.210 --> 00:03:59.250 Exactly. You are learning the old school way. 00:03:59.810 --> 00:04:02.509 Respect, discipline, and most importantly, storytelling 00:04:02.509 --> 00:04:06.370 in the ring. It gave Sajika a classic foundation 00:04:06.370 --> 00:04:09.009 that, quite frankly, a lot of modern guys just 00:04:09.009 --> 00:04:11.569 don't have. So he trains there for, what, five 00:04:11.569 --> 00:04:14.229 months? Yeah. Which seems really fast, doesn't 00:04:14.229 --> 00:04:17.519 it? It is extremely fast, but you have to remember 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:19.819 he was already a high -level conditioned athlete, 00:04:20.060 --> 00:04:23.819 so he adopts the ring named John Walters as a 00:04:23.819 --> 00:04:27.019 direct tribute to Kowalski. John Walters. It 00:04:27.019 --> 00:04:29.060 just sounds so reliable, like a tax accountant 00:04:29.060 --> 00:04:32.040 or a third baseman. It is a very solid babyface 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:34.920 name, a good guy name, but he added a nickname 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:36.899 to it that I absolutely love just because of 00:04:36.899 --> 00:04:40.699 how utterly meaningless it was. Hurricane John 00:04:40.699 --> 00:04:44.920 Walters. Was his style super fast? Was he destructive 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:47.370 in the ring? Not at all. His college roommate 00:04:47.370 --> 00:04:49.490 just told him it sounded cool. That is the most 00:04:49.490 --> 00:04:51.870 college thing I've ever heard. Dude, you should 00:04:51.870 --> 00:04:54.170 totally be a hurricane. Exactly. Just a random 00:04:54.170 --> 00:04:56.810 suggestion, but it stuck. And this really kicks 00:04:56.810 --> 00:04:59.569 off the first major phase of his career, what 00:04:59.569 --> 00:05:02.149 we can call the technician phase. Right. He starts 00:05:02.149 --> 00:05:04.370 working for Chaotic Wrestling, which was the 00:05:04.370 --> 00:05:06.410 really big indie promotion in New England at 00:05:06.410 --> 00:05:08.250 the time. And looking at our notes here, he wasn't 00:05:08.250 --> 00:05:10.069 just a background participant either. He was 00:05:10.069 --> 00:05:13.089 actively winning titles. He was their heavyweight 00:05:13.089 --> 00:05:15.329 champion, their television champion. He was the 00:05:15.329 --> 00:05:17.769 exact kind of guy you could build an entire regional 00:05:17.769 --> 00:05:21.069 company around. But there is one specific detail 00:05:21.069 --> 00:05:23.689 from his time in chaotic wrestling that I think 00:05:23.689 --> 00:05:26.449 perfectly foreshadows his future genius for character 00:05:26.449 --> 00:05:29.250 work. What's that? He formed a tag team. Let 00:05:29.250 --> 00:05:32.600 me guess. The Hurricanes. No, they were called 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:35.500 12 -pack. 12 -pack. Please tell me that is a 00:05:35.500 --> 00:05:38.240 beer reference. It is, but it is a clever double 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:41.360 entendre. See, Steadicus, or Walters at this 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:44.420 point, was the extreme fitness nut. He had the 00:05:44.420 --> 00:05:47.759 literal six -pack abs. That was a super strict 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:51.040 diet. His partner was a guy named Good Time Vince 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:53.860 Vicolo. Let me guess, Vakala was the 12 -pack 00:05:53.860 --> 00:05:56.699 of beer in the cooler. Precisely. It was the 00:05:56.699 --> 00:05:59.740 absolute classic odd -couple dynamic. You have 00:05:59.740 --> 00:06:02.600 the straight -laced, intense athlete right next 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:05.459 to the beer -drinking party animal. That is actually 00:06:05.459 --> 00:06:07.139 pretty brilliant for an indie wrestling show. 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:09.000 It really is, and it shows that even way back 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:11.120 then, Sticktick has fully understood that wrestling 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:13.019 isn't just about the physical moves. It is about 00:06:13.019 --> 00:06:14.899 contrast. It is about those character dynamics. 00:06:15.220 --> 00:06:18.500 Yeah. But he clearly wanted more than just local 00:06:18.500 --> 00:06:21.259 New England fame. He set his sights on Ring of 00:06:21.259 --> 00:06:23.790 Honor. Okay, I have definitely heard of Ring 00:06:23.790 --> 00:06:27.720 of Honor. R -O -H. Back in the early 2000s, that 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:29.980 was the cool underground place to be right. It 00:06:29.980 --> 00:06:33.339 was the absolute mecca for the purists. If WWE 00:06:33.339 --> 00:06:36.220 was a loud blockbuster movie with giant explosions, 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:40.160 ROH was a gritty, serious, independent film. 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:42.680 Right. It was all about what they call work rate, 00:06:42.819 --> 00:06:46.360 pure athleticism. If you couldn't actually wrestle, 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:49.000 the fans there would literally eat you alive. 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:51.839 They were merciless. So how did our friend Hurricane 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:54.529 John get... His foot in the door. Did he just 00:06:54.529 --> 00:06:56.470 walk in and ask for a match? He really had to 00:06:56.470 --> 00:06:58.910 chase them down. He sent VHS tapes that got completely 00:06:58.910 --> 00:07:01.370 ignored. He finally met a ring announcer at a 00:07:01.370 --> 00:07:03.649 show, sent another tape through him, and eventually 00:07:03.649 --> 00:07:05.889 got a call from the main booker, Gabe Sapolsky, 00:07:05.970 --> 00:07:08.790 in 2003. And once he finally got in, he just 00:07:08.790 --> 00:07:11.629 found his niche perfectly. Yeah, he did. And 00:07:11.629 --> 00:07:14.230 that niche was pure wrestling. I'm looking at 00:07:14.230 --> 00:07:16.889 this term right here in the sources. ROH, pure 00:07:16.889 --> 00:07:19.009 champion. What does that actually mean in practice? 00:07:19.470 --> 00:07:21.850 Is it just regular wrestling without hitting 00:07:21.850 --> 00:07:24.550 people with steel chairs? It is much, much more 00:07:24.550 --> 00:07:27.410 specific than that. The Pure Championship had 00:07:27.410 --> 00:07:30.490 a very unique set of rules specifically designed 00:07:30.490 --> 00:07:33.709 to simulate a legitimate, real -world sport. 00:07:34.069 --> 00:07:36.569 Okay. For example, you know how in standard wrestling, 00:07:36.689 --> 00:07:38.769 if you get put in a painful submission hold, 00:07:38.949 --> 00:07:41.449 you can just reach out and grab the ring ropes 00:07:41.449 --> 00:07:43.509 to force the referee to break the hold? Yeah, 00:07:43.550 --> 00:07:45.810 the classic rope break. Right. Well, in a Pure 00:07:45.810 --> 00:07:47.949 match, you were only allowed three of those for 00:07:47.949 --> 00:07:50.350 the entire match. Wait, only three total. So 00:07:50.350 --> 00:07:52.149 what happens if you panic and use them all up 00:07:52.149 --> 00:07:54.819 early? if you use all three and then later in 00:07:54.819 --> 00:07:57.199 the match you get put in a submission hold you 00:07:57.199 --> 00:07:59.279 can grab those rogues all you want the referee 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:01.579 will not break the hold you either have to figure 00:08:01.579 --> 00:08:04.550 out how to escape You tap out or you pass out. 00:08:04.649 --> 00:08:06.850 Oh, wow. That changes everything. That adds a 00:08:06.850 --> 00:08:09.089 whole layer of chess -like strategy to the match. 00:08:09.209 --> 00:08:11.329 You can't just rely on the ropes to save you. 00:08:11.410 --> 00:08:14.629 Exactly. And on top of that, closed fist punches 00:08:14.629 --> 00:08:17.870 to the face were totally illegal. If you lost 00:08:17.870 --> 00:08:19.509 your temper and punched someone in the face, 00:08:19.550 --> 00:08:21.550 you automatically lost one of your rope breaks 00:08:21.550 --> 00:08:24.050 as a penalty. So it literally forces you to be 00:08:24.050 --> 00:08:26.550 a technician. You have to actively out -wrestle 00:08:26.550 --> 00:08:28.569 the other guy. You can't just turn into a street 00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:31.970 brawl. And Stajikas was the absolute master of 00:08:31.970 --> 00:08:35.990 this style. In August 2004, he defeated Doug 00:08:35.990 --> 00:08:38.250 Williams, who was this incredible British technical 00:08:38.250 --> 00:08:41.450 wizard, to win that pure title. Wow. And look 00:08:41.450 --> 00:08:44.350 at the list of guys he defended it against. Nigel 00:08:44.350 --> 00:08:46.710 McGuinness, Homicide Jay Lethal. Those are some 00:08:46.710 --> 00:08:49.529 incredibly huge names in the industry. They really 00:08:49.529 --> 00:08:51.570 are. So at this point in his career, John Walpers 00:08:51.570 --> 00:09:03.840 is known as the wrestler's wrestler. Which makes 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:06.279 what comes later in his career so completely 00:09:06.279 --> 00:09:08.679 shocking. It really does. But before we get to 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:11.000 his big villain arc, we have to talk about the 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:13.600 grind of the business. Because even if you are 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.980 the respected champion in ROH, you still want 00:09:16.980 --> 00:09:19.960 that mainstream WWE paycheck. Right, you have 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:22.299 to make a living. And he did the hard work. He 00:09:22.299 --> 00:09:24.080 took the extra bookings. But usually when you 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:27.779 go to WWE as an uncontracted outsider, you aren't 00:09:27.779 --> 00:09:30.509 there to showcase your skills and win. You are 00:09:30.509 --> 00:09:32.909 there to make their established stars look like 00:09:32.909 --> 00:09:36.149 monsters. Yeah, I see a note here about a television 00:09:36.149 --> 00:09:38.330 match he had with the big show on SmackDown. 00:09:38.490 --> 00:09:41.049 Yeah, just picture it. Imagine a guy who is maybe 00:09:41.049 --> 00:09:43.970 six foot something, very technically sound, standing 00:09:43.970 --> 00:09:46.409 across the ring from a legitimate seven foot, 00:09:46.450 --> 00:09:49.470 400 pound giant. It went exactly how you think 00:09:49.470 --> 00:09:51.649 it went. It got completely squashed. Like a bug 00:09:51.649 --> 00:09:54.429 on a windshield. But you know that is the job. 00:09:54.490 --> 00:09:56.929 That is how you pay your dues. Right. But there 00:09:56.929 --> 00:10:00.210 is one very specific moment. from his time doing 00:10:00.210 --> 00:10:02.710 extra work for WWE that I think is just delicious 00:10:02.710 --> 00:10:06.509 irony. WrestleMania 20, Madison Square Garden, 00:10:06.669 --> 00:10:09.110 literally the biggest show of the year. Sterikis 00:10:09.110 --> 00:10:10.669 was there. Wait, he was actually on the card 00:10:10.669 --> 00:10:12.629 at WrestleMania? He was definitely on the television 00:10:12.629 --> 00:10:16.110 screen, but you would never, ever know it. He 00:10:16.110 --> 00:10:18.490 was a druid. A druid? What does that mean? You 00:10:18.490 --> 00:10:22.029 know, the Undertaker's iconic entrance, the smoke, 00:10:22.250 --> 00:10:25.370 the dramatic music, the fire, and those anonymous 00:10:25.370 --> 00:10:28.230 hooded figures standing perfectly still holding 00:10:28.230 --> 00:10:31.269 the flaming torches. What you are telling me, 00:10:31.269 --> 00:10:33.210 this technical wrestling wizard, this guy we 00:10:33.210 --> 00:10:35.470 have been building up as a serious pure athlete, 00:10:35.730 --> 00:10:38.210 his big WrestleMania break was standing there 00:10:38.210 --> 00:10:40.940 holding a stick. He wasn't even wrestling. Zero 00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:43.220 wrestling involved. He was essentially human 00:10:43.220 --> 00:10:46.159 furniture. He was atmospheric lighting. That 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:48.259 is just incredibly humbling. You were standing 00:10:48.259 --> 00:10:50.779 in the middle of Madison Square Garden listening 00:10:50.779 --> 00:10:53.159 to 20 ,000 people scream their lungs out and 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:54.659 you were wearing a hood so you can't even show 00:10:54.659 --> 00:10:56.840 your own face. It really shows you the strict 00:10:56.840 --> 00:10:58.899 hierarchy of the wrestling business. You can 00:10:58.899 --> 00:11:00.779 be an absolute king in the independent scene 00:11:00.779 --> 00:11:03.179 and turn into a literal stage prop in the big 00:11:03.179 --> 00:11:05.740 leagues. And I really think that massive contrast, 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:08.320 being so talented but being treated as totally 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:10.610 anonymous, might have... really fueled what he 00:11:10.610 --> 00:11:12.990 decided to do next. OK, so let's jump forward 00:11:12.990 --> 00:11:16.409 to 2010, the massive shift. This is where the 00:11:16.409 --> 00:11:19.669 story just completely goes off the rails. He 00:11:19.669 --> 00:11:22.409 joins a brand new promotion called Lucha Libre 00:11:22.409 --> 00:11:26.580 USA. Now, context is extremely key here. Lucha 00:11:26.580 --> 00:11:29.700 Libre USA was an MTV -backed show specifically 00:11:29.700 --> 00:11:33.039 designed to bring Mexican lucha libre, which 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.659 means the masks, the high -flying acrobatics, 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:39.200 the heavy cultural traditions to a mainstream 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.679 American audience. So why on earth would they 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:45.820 bring in a guy like Stajekis? He is a grounded 00:11:45.820 --> 00:11:48.299 technical wrestler from Massachusetts. He doesn't 00:11:48.299 --> 00:11:50.600 wear a colorful mask. He doesn't do crazy flips 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:52.779 off the top rope. That is exactly why they brought 00:11:52.779 --> 00:11:55.460 him in. They desperately needed a foil. Every 00:11:55.460 --> 00:11:57.899 great cultural hero needs a terrifying villain. 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:00.720 And in a promotion entirely celebrating Mexican 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.799 culture, the ultimate villain is the ugly American. 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:06.240 But he didn't just go out there and play a generic 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:09.029 USA chanting bad guy. He went incredibly specific 00:12:09.029 --> 00:12:11.129 with it. He completely transformed. He became 00:12:11.129 --> 00:12:13.549 R .J. Brewer. And who exactly is R .J. Brewer 00:12:13.549 --> 00:12:15.490 in the context of this show? In the storyline 00:12:15.490 --> 00:12:17.409 they created, R .J. Brewer claimed to be the 00:12:17.409 --> 00:12:20.049 actual son of Jan Brewer. Jan Brewer as in the 00:12:20.049 --> 00:12:21.889 real -life governor of Arizona? The very same. 00:12:22.049 --> 00:12:24.830 The governor who, at that exact moment in 2010, 00:12:25.049 --> 00:12:27.990 was the national face of SB 1070. Oh, wow. Okay. 00:12:28.070 --> 00:12:30.149 I remember that. Just show me your paper's law. 00:12:30.269 --> 00:12:33.190 Just to give you listening some context, if you 00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:35.909 don't remember, it was a massive nationwide controversy. 00:12:36.389 --> 00:12:39.769 It was real -world legislation dealing with illegal 00:12:39.769 --> 00:12:43.570 immigration, and critics argued it heavily encouraged 00:12:43.570 --> 00:12:47.129 racial profiling. We're talking intense national 00:12:47.129 --> 00:12:50.500 debates on... Every news channel. It was a total 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:54.539 political powder keg. Right. And Stajica's walked 00:12:54.539 --> 00:12:56.720 right into the wrestling ring carrying the lit 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:59.879 match. He wore wrestling tights with SB 1070 00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:02.600 printed right on the side and big letters. He 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:04.519 walked out to the ring with the Arizona state 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:06.659 flag draped over his shoulders like a superhero 00:13:06.659 --> 00:13:08.960 cape. Doing that in a company literally called 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:12.480 Lucha Libre USA. That is nuclear heat from the 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:14.919 crowd. It was entirely visceral. He wasn't just 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:16.960 being booed because he broke a rule or cheated 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.480 to win a match. He was genuinely hated because 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:21.659 he represented a very real -world legislative 00:13:21.659 --> 00:13:23.440 threat to the audience sitting in the front row 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:25.860 and the other wrestlers in the back. He even 00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:27.700 formed a villainous stable called The Right. 00:13:28.139 --> 00:13:31.320 The Right. Subtle. Very subtle. Subtlety was 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:34.419 absolutely not the goal here. He teamed up with 00:13:34.419 --> 00:13:37.460 Petey Williams and John Reckon, and their stated 00:13:37.460 --> 00:13:39.779 storyline mission was to clean up the company 00:13:39.779 --> 00:13:42.320 and forcibly remove the Mexican influence from 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:44.500 American television. It's basically the classic 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:47.019 foreign invader wrestling trope, but completely 00:13:47.019 --> 00:13:49.519 turned upside down. Usually in American wrestling, 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:52.080 it is the scary foreigner coming over to destroy 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:54.440 American values. Right. But here it is, the scary 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:57.340 right -wing American actively trying to sanitize 00:13:57.340 --> 00:14:00.360 a Mexican cultural space. Exactly. And because 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:02.419 he was such an incredibly good technician in 00:14:02.419 --> 00:14:04.639 the ring, remember all that rigorous ROH training, 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.460 he could actually back up his words. He cleanly 00:14:07.460 --> 00:14:10.080 beat the heroes. He beat Liz Mark Jr. He beat 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:12.840 Marco Corleone. He actually won the Lucha Libre 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:15.440 USA Championship. But here is where I get really 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.679 stuck on this story. of stuff stays safely inside 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:21.059 the wrestling bubble. The fans in the arena know 00:14:21.059 --> 00:14:23.559 it is a show they get mad they go home. But RJ 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:26.899 Brewer somehow broke out into the real world. 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.720 And this is the true genius part of the performance. 00:14:29.899 --> 00:14:32.580 The character was so triggering and the real 00:14:32.580 --> 00:14:35.480 world political climate was so incredibly tense 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:38.320 that the mainstream media completely took the 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:40.820 bait. Wow. They saw this guy claiming to be the 00:14:40.820 --> 00:14:43.460 son of the governor physically wrestling illegal 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:46.159 immigrants on TV and they simply couldn't resist 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:48.899 covering it. And we are talking about major big 00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:51.360 time outlets, right? Huge outlets. He was booked 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:56.679 on ABC Nightline. He was on Fox News, CNN. The 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:59.860 Geraldo Rivera radio show. He was literally featured 00:14:59.860 --> 00:15:01.879 on the front page of the LA Times. Okay, so he 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:04.679 goes on these serious news shows. Does he drop 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:06.799 the act? Does he sit down and say, hey guys, 00:15:06.940 --> 00:15:09.299 I'm just an actor playing character for MTV? 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:11.940 No. And this is where it gets genuinely kind 00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:14.440 of terrifying. He treated those mainstream news 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:16.899 interviews exactly like a wrestling promo. He 00:15:16.899 --> 00:15:19.960 stayed 100 % in character as R .J. Brewer. But 00:15:19.960 --> 00:15:22.019 surely the news anchors doing the interviews 00:15:22.019 --> 00:15:24.889 knew it was a bit right. They had to know he 00:15:24.889 --> 00:15:27.370 wasn't really Jan Brewer's son. That is the fascinating 00:15:27.370 --> 00:15:30.549 thing about kayfabe. Back in the 80s, everyone 00:15:30.549 --> 00:15:32.730 in wrestling protected the secret that it was 00:15:32.730 --> 00:15:36.309 scripted. But by 2010, everyone watching already 00:15:36.309 --> 00:15:38.730 knew wrestling was scripted entertainment. Right, 00:15:38.789 --> 00:15:41.269 obviously. But Brewer played the character so 00:15:41.269 --> 00:15:43.649 incredibly straight with no winks to the camera 00:15:43.649 --> 00:15:47.190 that he essentially gaslit the interviewers. 00:15:47.350 --> 00:15:50.409 He forced the anchors to treat him as a legitimate 00:15:50.409 --> 00:15:53.590 political activist simply because he f***ed. 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:56.279 flat out refused to blink. That takes unbelievable 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:59.279 nerve. Yeah. You were sitting across from seasoned 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:01.639 journalists on Nightline. They're asking you 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:03.919 complex, porny questions about actual immigration 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.600 law. If you stumble even once, or if you accidentally 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.500 use wrestling jargon, the entire jig is up. Right, 00:16:10.539 --> 00:16:13.200 you look foolish. But he realized something really 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:15.620 profound about the media landscape. Cable news 00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:17.940 functions almost exactly like professional wrestling. 00:16:18.100 --> 00:16:21.179 It desperately needs conflict. It needs a polarizing 00:16:21.179 --> 00:16:23.679 heel to drive up the ratings. So he just gave 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:25.960 them the exact heel they were looking for. He 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:30.899 argued passionately for SB 1070. He spewed the 00:16:30.899 --> 00:16:34.039 nativist rhetoric perfectly. And the news networks 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:36.019 ate it up because whether they agreed with him 00:16:36.019 --> 00:16:38.659 or not, it made for incredibly compelling television. 00:16:38.980 --> 00:16:41.059 It really heavily blurs the line, doesn't it? 00:16:41.139 --> 00:16:44.629 Right. He literally used real world. political 00:16:44.629 --> 00:16:48.389 polarization to sell tickets to a predetermined, 00:16:48.389 --> 00:16:50.870 scripted fight. And it absolutely worked. The 00:16:50.870 --> 00:16:53.289 crowd heat was incredibly real. It all finally 00:16:53.289 --> 00:16:56.210 culminated in a massive Lucha Estiapuestas match 00:16:56.210 --> 00:16:58.309 down in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Translate that 00:16:58.309 --> 00:16:59.990 term for me. What is that? It means a betting 00:16:59.990 --> 00:17:02.169 match. It is the absolute highest stakes you 00:17:02.169 --> 00:17:04.190 can have in traditional lucha libre. This was 00:17:04.190 --> 00:17:08.990 in January 2011. R .J. Brewer versus Magno. Magno 00:17:08.990 --> 00:17:11.410 puts his legendary mask on the line, which represents 00:17:11.410 --> 00:17:13.809 his identity and his entire culture. And what 00:17:13.809 --> 00:17:15.549 does Brewer put up? Brewer puts his hair on the 00:17:15.549 --> 00:17:17.710 line. Pair versus mask. Yeah. The ultimate classic 00:17:17.710 --> 00:17:20.170 stipulation. And the building was just ready 00:17:20.170 --> 00:17:22.910 to riot. The atmosphere was electric. And in 00:17:22.910 --> 00:17:25.630 the very end, Brewer finally lost. So he actually 00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:27.490 had to sit there and shave his head. Completely 00:17:27.490 --> 00:17:29.630 bald, right in the middle of the ring. It is 00:17:29.630 --> 00:17:33.180 the ultimate public humiliation for the... Arrogant, 00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:36.400 untouchable villain. The crowd finally got their 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:39.119 emotional catharsis. The evil governor's son 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:42.720 was humbled. It is just perfect traditional storytelling. 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:45.200 But it's just amazing to me that he could balance 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:47.920 that mentally. Because let's be very clear here. 00:17:48.490 --> 00:17:50.589 And we absolutely have to be neutral reporting 00:17:50.589 --> 00:17:53.970 this. These views he was shouting on CNN weren't 00:17:53.970 --> 00:17:56.769 necessarily John Stagikas' actual personal views. 00:17:56.950 --> 00:17:59.269 He was playing a deeply controversial part. And 00:17:59.269 --> 00:18:01.549 that is the big man behind the curtain reveal 00:18:01.549 --> 00:18:03.789 of this whole deep dive. If you dig into John 00:18:03.789 --> 00:18:06.430 Stagikas, the actual person, the contrast to 00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:08.470 his character is almost hilarious. Yeah, looking 00:18:08.470 --> 00:18:10.869 at his bio here, he literally owns a villa down 00:18:10.869 --> 00:18:13.690 in Costa Rica. Right. The guy who was on national 00:18:13.690 --> 00:18:16.569 television constantly preaching isolationism 00:18:16.569 --> 00:18:19.730 and America first. Frederick literally owns vacation 00:18:19.730 --> 00:18:22.529 property in Central America. And he also actively 00:18:22.529 --> 00:18:25.710 works with shelter dogs. He trains them. He has 00:18:25.710 --> 00:18:28.789 worked a regular job in real estate. By all accounts, 00:18:28.890 --> 00:18:31.470 from people who know him, he is a very quiet, 00:18:31.569 --> 00:18:34.789 compassionate, normal guy. Which honestly just 00:18:34.789 --> 00:18:37.069 makes the performance of R .J. Brewer even more 00:18:37.069 --> 00:18:40.630 impressive. He somehow tapped into a specific 00:18:40.630 --> 00:18:44.480 darkness that wasn't. authentically him he amplified 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.559 it to 10 and he served it up on a silver platter 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:50.059 to an audience that was desperate to see that 00:18:50.059 --> 00:18:53.000 specific kind of villain get beaten it really 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:55.099 perfectly highlights the fundamental difference 00:18:55.099 --> 00:18:57.859 between cheap heat and real heat in wrestling 00:18:57.859 --> 00:18:59.930 what's the difference Well, cheap heat is just 00:18:59.930 --> 00:19:01.930 walking into an arena in Boston, grabbing the 00:19:01.930 --> 00:19:03.690 microphone and saying the Red Sox suck. Right. 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:07.210 Easy booze. Exactly. Real heat is wearing a giant 00:19:07.210 --> 00:19:10.809 SB 1070 logo in a room full of people who might 00:19:10.809 --> 00:19:13.109 personally be deported or marginalized because 00:19:13.109 --> 00:19:15.630 of that actual law. That is very dangerous heat. 00:19:15.730 --> 00:19:17.900 Yeah. But because he was a consummate professional, 00:19:18.140 --> 00:19:20.099 because he was that disciplined technician from 00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:22.720 his Ring of Honor days, he could control that 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:24.920 danger perfectly. He kept everyone in the ring 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.039 physically safe while making the audience truly 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:29.220 believe they were participating in a riot. So 00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:31.859 after the whole Lucha Libre USA run wrapped up, 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:33.900 the character kind of had to fade away, right? 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:36.880 I mean, you just can't keep that intense level 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:38.940 of political heat going forever without real 00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:41.400 consequences. No, you really can't. He had a 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.200 period of quiet inactivity. The MTV show eventually 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:47.109 ended. But you know how pro wrestlers are. They 00:19:47.109 --> 00:19:49.410 never actually retire. Never. In November of 00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:52.349 2020, he actually announced a return to full 00:19:52.349 --> 00:19:54.890 -time wrestling. Once you are a worker, you are 00:19:54.890 --> 00:19:57.049 always a worker. So when you look back at this 00:19:57.049 --> 00:20:00.190 whole crazy arc, the college football player, 00:20:00.369 --> 00:20:03.690 the pure technical wrestler, the background druid, 00:20:03.690 --> 00:20:06.049 the polarizing political pundit, what is the 00:20:06.049 --> 00:20:08.660 main takeaway from all these sources? For me, 00:20:08.660 --> 00:20:10.819 looking at the media coverage, it is really all 00:20:10.819 --> 00:20:13.599 about the raw power of commitment. John Stagikis 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:15.319 wasn't the biggest guy in the locker room. He 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.599 wasn't the most acrobatic flyer. But he committed 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:21.200 to the bit harder than anyone else possibly could. 00:20:21.380 --> 00:20:23.660 He committed so incredibly hard that he somehow 00:20:23.660 --> 00:20:25.619 ended up on the front page of the L .A. Times 00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:28.640 operating as a totally fake person. Exactly. 00:20:28.819 --> 00:20:32.380 He realized a very dangerous truth. If you treat 00:20:32.380 --> 00:20:34.779 your own fiction with enough absolute seriousness, 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:37.839 the real world will eventually start to treat 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:40.000 it as fact. It is actually kind of terrifying 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:41.859 when you really think about it. Why is that? 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.559 Because if a guy who trained in a wrestling ring 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:49.079 in Massachusetts can put on a nice suit. and 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:51.720 completely fool CNN anchors just by speaking 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:54.559 loudly and confidently, who else is doing that 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.799 right now? That is the ultimate million -dollar 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:59.619 question. We turn on the TV every single night, 00:20:59.660 --> 00:21:01.799 we see these intense political debates, we see 00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:03.839 these personalities clashing and screaming, and 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:07.000 we just automatically assume it's all 100 % real 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:09.779 and authentic. But the story of R .J. Brewer 00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:12.259 proved that you can totally hack that system. 00:21:12.539 --> 00:21:15.359 He proved that with the exact right costume and 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:17.559 the right inflammatory catchphrases in what we 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:19.680 call the news often becomes just another form 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:22.119 of professional wrestling. It really is just 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:26.220 performance art masquerading as serious discourse. 00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:28.920 And that is definitely something for you to chew 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:31.119 on the next time you are sitting there watching 00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:33.559 a panel of angry experts screaming at each other 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:35.799 on television. You might just be watching a well 00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:37.839 -crafted work and not even realize it. Always 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.339 remember to check the source. Thanks for listening 00:21:40.339 --> 00:21:42.480 to this deep dive into the strange and blurred 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.019 reality of RJ Brewer. We will catch you on the 00:21:45.019 --> 00:21:46.339 next one. Stay curious.