WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.459 So, I want you to picture a flag. You know the 00:00:03.459 --> 00:00:05.839 standard Russian flag, right? Ah, sure, the tricolor. 00:00:06.019 --> 00:00:08.279 Yeah, the tricolor. White on top, blue in the 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:10.339 middle, red on the bottom. Right, it's iconic. 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:12.919 Now, in your mind, I want you to take that bottom 00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:15.339 red stripe, the one that, you know, historically 00:00:15.339 --> 00:00:18.339 symbolizes blood or courage, depending on who 00:00:18.339 --> 00:00:21.019 you ask, and just wash it out. Scrub it clean. 00:00:21.300 --> 00:00:23.420 Exactly, scrub it completely clean until it's 00:00:23.420 --> 00:00:26.440 white. So now you have this flag that is white, 00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:29.969 blue, and white. Which is a very deliberate piece 00:00:29.969 --> 00:00:33.070 of rebranding. Right. The symbolism is pretty 00:00:33.070 --> 00:00:35.770 stark. It's supposed to represent a Russia that 00:00:35.770 --> 00:00:39.020 has stopped. Spilling blood. A Russia at peace. 00:00:39.340 --> 00:00:41.700 But, and this is the massive paradox we really 00:00:41.700 --> 00:00:44.359 need to unpack today, that flag, this symbol 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:46.859 of a peaceful Russia, is currently being flown 00:00:46.859 --> 00:00:49.740 by men who are, well, very much spilling blood. 00:00:49.859 --> 00:00:51.899 Yeah, they are. They're driving tanks, firing 00:00:51.899 --> 00:00:54.420 artillery, doing these crazy cross -border raids. 00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:56.840 And the real twist here is they aren't fighting 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:59.670 for the Kremlin. No, not at all. They are Russian 00:00:59.670 --> 00:01:03.270 citizens, former soldiers, volunteers fighting 00:01:03.270 --> 00:01:05.790 for Ukraine against their own motherland. Which 00:01:05.790 --> 00:01:07.969 brings us to the subject of today's deep dive, 00:01:08.129 --> 00:01:12.090 the freedom of Russia Legion or the FRL. Yes. 00:01:12.189 --> 00:01:14.209 And frankly, I mean, this is one of the most 00:01:14.209 --> 00:01:17.430 confusing, mythical and controversial units in 00:01:17.430 --> 00:01:20.640 this entire war. That is exactly why I wanted 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:22.920 to do this topic, because you keep seeing these 00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:26.519 headlines like Russians invade Russia. And it 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:28.719 sounds like the plot of a Tom Clancy novel. Oh, 00:01:28.780 --> 00:01:31.420 absolutely. It feels scripted. So our mission 00:01:31.420 --> 00:01:33.599 today is to cut through all that fog of war. 00:01:33.780 --> 00:01:35.780 We need to figure out who these people actually 00:01:35.780 --> 00:01:39.700 are. Right. Are they this massive army of defectors 00:01:39.700 --> 00:01:42.819 getting ready to storm Moscow or. I don't know, 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:45.780 is it just a brilliant PR stunt by Ukrainian 00:01:45.780 --> 00:01:48.739 intelligence? Or just a ragtag group of radicals 00:01:48.739 --> 00:01:51.280 looking for a fight. Exactly. It's a vital question. 00:01:51.420 --> 00:01:53.739 And to get the answer, we've had to pull together 00:01:53.739 --> 00:01:56.920 this huge stack of conflicting sources. Yeah, 00:01:56.959 --> 00:01:58.840 it was a lot to sift through. We've got military 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:01.000 assessments from the conflict intelligence team, 00:02:01.060 --> 00:02:02.959 who, by the way, are ex -Senate verification, 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:05.500 plus investigative reports from places like Harper's 00:02:05.500 --> 00:02:07.819 Magazine. And, of course, Wikipedia and Allegiant's 00:02:07.819 --> 00:02:10.759 own interviews and propaganda output. Yeah. Right. 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:11.819 You have to look at what they're doing. They're 00:02:11.819 --> 00:02:13.379 saying about themselves, too. And we're going 00:02:13.379 --> 00:02:15.300 to try to look past the smoke and mirrors here. 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:18.000 We'll introduce you to their spokesperson, this 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:20.719 guy named Caesar, who has a very complicated, 00:02:20.900 --> 00:02:23.800 very complicated past. And later we'll break 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:27.500 down the story of a pilot named Silver, which 00:02:27.500 --> 00:02:30.000 honestly plays out straight like an action movie. 00:02:30.349 --> 00:02:33.349 It really is a story about treason, identity, 00:02:33.590 --> 00:02:37.770 and that incredibly murky line between freedom 00:02:37.770 --> 00:02:40.810 fighter and, you know, useful asset. Okay, so 00:02:40.810 --> 00:02:43.229 let's unpack this. Where does the story actually 00:02:43.229 --> 00:02:45.150 begin? Because if you listen to the Legion, they 00:02:45.150 --> 00:02:47.530 have this very specific origin myth. They do. 00:02:47.650 --> 00:02:50.030 The official narrative, the one they really want 00:02:50.030 --> 00:02:53.460 the world to believe, starts in March 2022. So 00:02:53.460 --> 00:02:55.979 right at the beginning of the full scale invasion. 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:59.300 Right. The claim is that a specific company of 00:02:59.300 --> 00:03:01.199 the Russian army, we're talking over 100 men, 00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:04.219 didn't just surrender. They defected. And we 00:03:04.219 --> 00:03:06.219 should clarify that distinction for you listening 00:03:06.219 --> 00:03:08.719 because it matters. Huge difference. Surrendering 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:12.159 is like, I give up. Please don't shoot me. Defecting 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:15.340 is, I'm switching teams. Hand me a rifle. Exactly. 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:17.960 So according to the Legion, these men crossed 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:22.819 over voluntarily on February 27, 2022, with the 00:03:22.819 --> 00:03:25.659 help of the Security Service of Ukraine, the 00:03:25.659 --> 00:03:28.620 SBU. Wow. Yeah. And their commander issued this 00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:30.939 statement saying they wanted to, quote, protect 00:03:30.939 --> 00:03:34.639 Ukrainians from real fascists. Man, that is a 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:37.599 heavy statement. Considering Putin's entire justification 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:39.960 for the war at the time was fighting fascism. 00:03:40.669 --> 00:03:42.449 they just completely flipped the script they 00:03:42.449 --> 00:03:45.949 totally did and by april 2022 they held their 00:03:45.949 --> 00:03:48.969 very first press conference in kiev to announce 00:03:48.969 --> 00:03:51.210 themselves to the world right i remember seeing 00:03:51.210 --> 00:03:53.840 the pictures from that The visual was so distinctive. 00:03:53.860 --> 00:03:56.439 It was three men in military fatigue sitting 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:59.419 at a table, but their faces were completely covered 00:03:59.419 --> 00:04:01.639 by these black balaclavas. See, that's exactly 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:03.860 where the movie script vibe starts for me. You 00:04:03.860 --> 00:04:05.599 have these anonymous figures claiming to be the 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:07.800 good guys, adopting this new white -blue -white 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:10.219 flag and using the letter L as their symbol. 00:04:10.340 --> 00:04:12.500 For Legion and Liberty. Right. It just feels 00:04:12.500 --> 00:04:14.620 very branded, like a marketing agency came up 00:04:14.620 --> 00:04:17.000 with the whole package. And that suspicion is 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:19.680 totally healthy to have. We have to remember 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:22.720 that in modern war, information is a weapon. 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:26.480 But they do try to back up the branding with 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:29.079 claims of a very rigorous recruitment process. 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:32.240 They insist they aren't just taking any Russian 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:35.360 POW who wants better food or a warmer cell. Which 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:38.019 makes sense. I mean, if you're Ukraine, the absolute 00:04:38.019 --> 00:04:41.839 last thing you want is a... quote -unquote defector 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:44.240 who's actually a double agent calling in coordinates 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:46.939 for Russian artillery on your own position. Precisely. 00:04:46.939 --> 00:04:50.300 It's a huge security risk. So they claim that 00:04:50.300 --> 00:04:52.300 candidates go through multiple rounds of interviews, 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:55.199 psychological testing, and even polygraph tests. 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.500 Wait, lie detectors? Yes, lie detectors to ensure 00:04:58.500 --> 00:05:01.300 they're genuine. And then supposedly they undergo 00:05:01.300 --> 00:05:03.459 two solid months of training before they ever 00:05:03.459 --> 00:05:06.199 even see the front lines. So the claim is that 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:07.920 they're building this professional unit, not 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:10.560 just a penal battalion. Right. Let's talk about 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:12.519 the face of this operation. Yeah. Because unlike 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:14.660 those anonymous guys in the ball of clavis, there's 00:05:14.660 --> 00:05:17.699 one guy who's very much in the public eye. Oh, 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:19.680 you're talking about Caesar. Caesar, which is 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:22.139 a great call sign, by the way. It is. His real 00:05:22.139 --> 00:05:25.620 name is Maximilian Andronikov. And looking at 00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:28.970 his background, he is just. Well, he's a walking 00:05:28.970 --> 00:05:31.769 contradiction. That is putting it mildly. Caesar 00:05:31.769 --> 00:05:34.550 is the deputy commander and the primary spokesperson. 00:05:35.069 --> 00:05:38.149 If you ever see a clip of the Legion on CNN or 00:05:38.149 --> 00:05:40.269 the BBC, it's usually him doing the talking. 00:05:40.470 --> 00:05:43.350 He's from St. Petersburg. And before the war, 00:05:43.589 --> 00:05:46.389 he was a physiotherapist. A physiotherapist. 00:05:46.389 --> 00:05:49.370 So he went from fixing back pain and sports injuries 00:05:49.370 --> 00:05:52.980 to leading armed incursions into Russia. That 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:55.379 is quite the career pivot. It really is. But 00:05:55.379 --> 00:05:57.319 it gets more complex because while he presents 00:05:57.319 --> 00:05:59.500 himself as this articulate, thoughtful figure 00:05:59.500 --> 00:06:01.939 now, we have to look at his political history. 00:06:02.139 --> 00:06:03.980 Right. He wasn't just a quiet medical professional. 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:05.920 He was a member of the Russian imperial movement 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:09.019 or RIM. OK, so for those listening who don't 00:06:09.019 --> 00:06:11.779 spend their time tracking extremist groups, what 00:06:11.779 --> 00:06:14.379 exactly is the Russian imperial movement? They 00:06:14.379 --> 00:06:17.339 are bad news. They are designated by many international 00:06:17.339 --> 00:06:19.800 monitors and the U .S. State Department as a 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:23.389 terrorist entity. Yeah. They're ultra nationalist, 00:06:23.769 --> 00:06:26.589 monarchist and effectively white supremacist. 00:06:26.790 --> 00:06:29.610 And Caesar himself has admitted to being a right 00:06:29.610 --> 00:06:32.529 wing nationalist in the past. So wait, we have 00:06:32.529 --> 00:06:34.949 a guy from a far right imperialist background 00:06:34.949 --> 00:06:38.490 fighting for Ukraine, claiming to defend democracy. 00:06:38.810 --> 00:06:41.569 That seems like a massive disconnect. This is 00:06:41.569 --> 00:06:43.110 where it gets really interesting and where you 00:06:43.110 --> 00:06:45.589 kind of have to separate his past from his current 00:06:45.589 --> 00:06:49.470 messaging. OK. Caesar now claims the Legion adheres 00:06:49.470 --> 00:06:52.810 to moderate centrist views. In interviews, he 00:06:52.810 --> 00:06:55.670 says things like, I am not fighting my motherland. 00:06:55.730 --> 00:06:58.389 I am fighting against Putin's regime against 00:06:58.389 --> 00:07:01.379 evil. So he's actively reframing his nationalism. 00:07:01.660 --> 00:07:04.560 Exactly. He positions himself as a true Russian 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:06.860 patriot who believes the only way to save Russia 00:07:06.860 --> 00:07:09.120 is to destroy the current government. Interesting. 00:07:09.259 --> 00:07:11.680 He argues that Putin is destroying the Russian 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.339 ethnos by sending them into a meat grinder. So 00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:16.620 in his mind, invading Russia is actually an act 00:07:16.620 --> 00:07:19.199 of love for his country. It's a fascinating rebrand, 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:21.180 I have to say. But let's move from the ideology 00:07:21.180 --> 00:07:23.339 to the action. Yeah, let's look at the ground. 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:25.500 Because rhetoric is one thing, but what is this 00:07:25.500 --> 00:07:28.040 legion actually doing? They aren't just posting 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:30.980 angry messages. No, they're absolutely shooting. 00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:33.660 There have been reports of Legion fighters in 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:36.160 the grinder of Bakhmut, mostly doing artillery 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:39.920 work. But their main claim to fame, the thing 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.160 that really put them on the global map, isn't 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.240 holding the line in Ukraine. It's crossing the 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:49.040 line into Russia. The Belgorod raids. Exactly. 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:52.939 Starting around May and June of 2023, the Legion, 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.259 along with some other groups, launched these 00:07:55.259 --> 00:07:58.060 incredibly daring cross -border raids into the 00:07:58.060 --> 00:08:00.000 Belgorod region of Russia. I remember seeing 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:01.839 the footage on social media. It was surreal. 00:08:02.410 --> 00:08:04.750 Yeah, we're talking about actual tanks and armored 00:08:04.750 --> 00:08:07.290 vehicles rolling across the border, taking over 00:08:07.290 --> 00:08:10.050 checkpoints and entering Russian villages like 00:08:10.050 --> 00:08:12.430 Graveron and Shibukino. Yeah, you had Russian 00:08:12.430 --> 00:08:14.930 tanks, but with that white cross or the white, 00:08:14.970 --> 00:08:17.170 blue, white flag painted on them just driving 00:08:17.170 --> 00:08:19.529 down Russian streets. Yeah. What was the strategic 00:08:19.529 --> 00:08:21.350 goal here? Were they trying to actually conquer 00:08:21.350 --> 00:08:24.509 territory? Not permanently, no. They simply don't 00:08:24.509 --> 00:08:27.579 have the manpower to hold a Russian city. The 00:08:27.579 --> 00:08:30.579 stated goal was to create a demilitarized zone 00:08:30.579 --> 00:08:33.940 along the border. Okay. To act as a buffer. Essentially, 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:36.679 yes. They wanted to push Russian artillery back 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:39.019 so they couldn't shell Ukrainian civilians as 00:08:39.019 --> 00:08:42.360 easily. But there were two other massive goals 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:45.600 behind this. What were they? One, draw Russian 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.200 troops away from the main front lines in Ukraine. 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:50.840 Right. Distraction. If Russia has to defend its 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:52.519 own border, those soldiers can't be fighting 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:56.059 in Zaporizhia or Donetsk. Precisely. And two. 00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:59.080 psychological warfare. They want to show the 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:01.179 Russian people that the Kremlin literally cannot 00:09:01.179 --> 00:09:03.340 protect them. Yeah. Showing them weakness. They 00:09:03.340 --> 00:09:05.940 want to encourage rebellion. Yeah. A spokesman 00:09:05.940 --> 00:09:08.120 for the Legion explicitly said their goal is 00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:10.059 to encourage a revolt against the government. 00:09:10.259 --> 00:09:12.080 It's about humiliation. Showing that the emperor 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.740 has no clothes or at least no border guards. 00:09:14.899 --> 00:09:17.200 Exactly. And they kept doing it. They went back 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:20.700 in March 2024 hitting Kursk and Belgorod again 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:23.679 claiming to control villages. And then you have 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:25.620 this quote from a volunteer that just blew my 00:09:25.620 --> 00:09:28.590 mind. He said they would eventually lead a, quote, 00:09:29.269 --> 00:09:32.470 march on Moscow. A march on Moscow. Yeah. Well, 00:09:32.629 --> 00:09:34.669 ambition is certainly not something they lack. 00:09:34.830 --> 00:09:37.149 Definitely not. Whether that is militarily feasible 00:09:37.149 --> 00:09:40.090 is a whole other conversation. But even if they 00:09:40.090 --> 00:09:42.909 never reach Moscow, the individual stories of 00:09:42.909 --> 00:09:45.730 how people join them are incredibly damaging 00:09:45.730 --> 00:09:48.370 to Russian morale. Oh, without a doubt. Which 00:09:48.370 --> 00:09:50.629 means this is where we have to talk about silver, 00:09:50.710 --> 00:09:54.220 because this story. I honestly thought I was 00:09:54.220 --> 00:09:56.080 reading a screenplay for a thriller when I read 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:58.259 the source material. It is a remarkable incident 00:09:58.259 --> 00:10:02.519 from August 2024. Operation Ocherette Silver 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:06.440 was the call sign of a Russian FPV drone pilot. 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:08.580 So an active duty Russian soldier. Active duty. 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:11.100 He contacted the Legion because he wanted to 00:10:11.100 --> 00:10:13.659 defect. But he didn't just, you know, sneak away 00:10:13.659 --> 00:10:15.720 in the night. Right. According to the Legion's 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:17.820 report, he threw a grenade into the ventilation 00:10:17.820 --> 00:10:20.500 hole of his unit's headquarters basement. While 00:10:20.500 --> 00:10:23.259 his commanders were inside. Yes. The report says 00:10:23.259 --> 00:10:25.320 that commander and other officers were sleeping 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:28.360 down there. About 15 people total were in the 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:31.080 basement. Unbelievable. He attacked his own command 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:34.600 structure, fragged them essentially, and then 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:37.700 fled across a prearranged route to Ukraine to 00:10:37.700 --> 00:10:40.340 officially join the Legion. That is intense. 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:43.399 I mean, it's one thing to surrender. It's another 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:45.879 to kill your commanding officer and then actively 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:48.100 join the other side. And that is exactly the 00:10:48.100 --> 00:10:50.100 kind of narrative the Legion wants to amplify. 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:52.429 Of course they do. It signals to other Russian 00:10:52.429 --> 00:10:54.629 soldiers, hey, you don't have to just die for 00:10:54.629 --> 00:10:57.210 this regime. You can fight back. It introduces 00:10:57.210 --> 00:11:00.409 this level of extreme paranoia within the Russian 00:11:00.409 --> 00:11:02.330 ranks. Right. Because now you have to wonder, 00:11:02.409 --> 00:11:04.649 is the guy next to me about to pull a silver? 00:11:04.870 --> 00:11:07.730 Exactly. It rots the unit cohesion from the inside 00:11:07.730 --> 00:11:10.169 out. It really does. But we need to pause here 00:11:10.169 --> 00:11:12.659 and clarify something important. We've been talking 00:11:12.659 --> 00:11:15.139 about the freedom of Russia Legion as if they 00:11:15.139 --> 00:11:17.340 are the only ones doing this. Right. But they 00:11:17.340 --> 00:11:19.779 aren't. And this is where the politics get very 00:11:19.779 --> 00:11:21.879 murky. We need to talk about the Russian Volunteer 00:11:21.879 --> 00:11:25.919 Corps. The RVC. Yes, the RVC. Are they the same 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:28.980 thing? Because I feel like the media often lumps 00:11:28.980 --> 00:11:31.399 them all together just as anti -Putin Russians. 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:33.960 They do often operate together, like in those 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:36.200 Belgorod raids we mentioned. But they are very 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:38.419 different organizations. And the distinction 00:11:38.419 --> 00:11:42.230 really matters. How so? The Legion, under Caesar, 00:11:42.450 --> 00:11:44.909 tries to project that moderate centrist image 00:11:44.909 --> 00:11:47.370 we discussed. They want to appeal to the general 00:11:47.370 --> 00:11:50.889 population in Russia. The RVC, on the other hand, 00:11:50.909 --> 00:11:54.169 doesn't really bother with the mask. The RVC 00:11:54.169 --> 00:11:57.309 is openly far right. Many observers and experts 00:11:57.309 --> 00:12:00.480 classify them straight up as neo -Nazi. their 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:02.960 leader is actually a well -known figure in the 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:05.840 european right -wing hooligan scene oh wow so 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.480 it's a very awkward alliance extremely awkward 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:11.700 it's a classic enemy of my enemy situation they 00:12:11.700 --> 00:12:14.679 share battlefield but caesar has been very careful 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:17.179 in interviews what does he say When asked about 00:12:17.179 --> 00:12:19.519 the RVC, he usually says something like, I do 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:22.039 not discuss other units, or he notes they have 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:24.659 different ideological bases. Just sidestepping 00:12:24.659 --> 00:12:27.519 it. Exactly. He refuses to condemn them because 00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:29.860 they are useful allies in combat, but he won't 00:12:29.860 --> 00:12:31.779 endorse them either. And there was a moment where 00:12:31.779 --> 00:12:33.960 the cracks really showed between these groups, 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:37.149 right? The Irpin Declaration. Ah, yes. August 00:12:37.149 --> 00:12:40.389 2022. This was a political attempt largely led 00:12:40.389 --> 00:12:44.809 by former Russian MP Ilya Ponomarev. The goal 00:12:44.809 --> 00:12:47.409 was to unite the different anti -Putin armed 00:12:47.409 --> 00:12:50.629 groups under one banner. They supposedly signed 00:12:50.629 --> 00:12:53.809 a declaration in Irpin, Ukraine, agreeing to 00:12:53.809 --> 00:12:55.870 coordinate their efforts and create a political 00:12:55.870 --> 00:12:58.250 wing. That sounds like a logical step. Yeah. 00:12:58.330 --> 00:13:00.570 Create a government -in -waiting type of situation. 00:13:00.769 --> 00:13:04.250 Ideally, yes. But here's the twist. Shortly after 00:13:04.250 --> 00:13:06.509 it was announced that the RVC had signed it, 00:13:06.590 --> 00:13:09.529 the RVC publicly came out and said, no, we didn't. 00:13:09.549 --> 00:13:12.669 Wait, really? Yeah. They flat out denied signing 00:13:12.669 --> 00:13:15.509 it. They completely refused to be part of Ponomarev's 00:13:15.509 --> 00:13:17.789 political project. So even among the Russians 00:13:17.789 --> 00:13:20.009 taking up arms against Putin, there is fragmentation 00:13:20.009 --> 00:13:22.750 and deep disagreement. Exactly. It really highlights 00:13:22.750 --> 00:13:25.330 that this isn't some monolithic free Russia movement. 00:13:25.490 --> 00:13:28.210 It's a collection of different factions, warlords, 00:13:28.289 --> 00:13:30.370 really, with very different end goals, united 00:13:30.370 --> 00:13:32.909 only by their desire to topple the current regime. 00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:35.320 Which brings us to the really big question. We've 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:37.799 talked about what they claim to be, but is this 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:41.639 real? Or is it, as some skeptics call it, a TikTok 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:44.740 battalion? This is a crucial part of the deep 00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:47.440 dive. We absolutely have to look at the skepticism 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:50.799 here. There are serious analysts like those at 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.279 the Conflict Intelligence Team and reports in 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:55.419 places like Harper's Magazine that have expressed 00:13:55.419 --> 00:13:58.179 genuine doubts. Doubts about what exactly? Doubts 00:13:58.179 --> 00:14:00.899 about the Legion's existence as a cohesive, large 00:14:00.899 --> 00:14:03.419 -scale combat unit. So what's the argument against 00:14:03.419 --> 00:14:04.860 them? Are they saying they don't exist at all? 00:14:05.179 --> 00:14:07.100 The argument is that while there might be some 00:14:07.100 --> 00:14:09.539 fighters, the organization as it's presented 00:14:09.539 --> 00:14:12.220 with battalions and rigid command structures 00:14:12.220 --> 00:14:15.279 might be largely a PR project run by Ukrainian 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:19.759 intelligence just to spook the Russians. Contrast 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:22.279 that with the International Legion, the foreign 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:25.220 fighters from the U .S., the U .K., Brazil, places 00:14:25.220 --> 00:14:28.200 like that. We know for a fact they're real. Right. 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:30.299 We have seen the International Legion in the 00:14:30.299 --> 00:14:32.720 thick of it in Irpin and Severodonetsk. There 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:34.659 are mountains of footage and independent verification 00:14:34.659 --> 00:14:37.019 of them fighting. Right. The Freedom of Russia 00:14:37.019 --> 00:14:40.240 Legion, by comparison, is often described by 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:42.740 researchers as being shrouded in a veil of mystery. 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:45.759 We see the raids, sure, but we don't see them 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:47.419 holding the line in the trenches in the same 00:14:47.419 --> 00:14:50.220 way. And there's a darker side to the skepticism, 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.120 too, right? Yeah. Regarding the prisoners of 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:56.340 war. Yes. This is a disturbing detail that really 00:14:56.340 --> 00:14:59.039 complicates their heroic narrative. There were 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:02.279 instances where Russian POWs joined the Legion 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:04.799 publicly, appeared in videos. Holding the flag, 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:07.139 doing the whole PR thing. Right. But then they 00:15:07.139 --> 00:15:10.000 were later exchanged back to Russia in prisoner 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.399 swaps. Wait, hold on. If they officially defected. 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:15.899 Why would Ukraine send them back? That sounds 00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:18.600 like a death sentence. It is. If you are a genuine 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:21.299 defector, going back to Russia means prison or 00:15:21.299 --> 00:15:23.840 worse. The fact that they were exchanged at all 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:27.360 suggests two possibilities. One, Ukraine betrayed 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.559 them, which is highly unlikely because that would 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.080 instantly kill any future recruitment. Obviously. 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.779 Or two, they never really defected in the first 00:15:35.779 --> 00:15:38.559 place. They were just props. It's possible. They 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:40.860 might have been coerced into making a video to 00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:43.000 scare the Russians, but they were still considered 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:45.799 regular POWs by the Ukrainians the whole time. 00:15:45.940 --> 00:15:48.039 Wow. And once they were back in Russia, some 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:50.320 of them claimed they were tortured or forced 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:52.600 into making those videos. Now, obviously, we 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:54.259 have to be careful with that claim, too. We have 00:15:54.259 --> 00:15:56.980 to remain impartial. Oh, absolutely. If you get 00:15:56.980 --> 00:15:59.700 sent back to Russia after appearing in a pro 00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:02.480 -Ukraine video, you are going to say whatever 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:05.259 the FSB tells you to say to save your life. Yeah. 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:06.779 You're not going to stand by your defection. 00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:09.440 Right. But the mere fact that they were exchanged 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.139 at all really raises questions about how genuine 00:16:12.139 --> 00:16:14.539 the Legion's recruitment numbers actually are. 00:16:14.779 --> 00:16:17.679 But regardless of whether they are this huge 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:20.799 army or just a small special ops team, the Kremlin 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.179 clearly isn't ignoring them. No, not at all. 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.980 They've taken serious legal steps. In March 2023, 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.419 the Russian Supreme Court officially declared 00:16:28.419 --> 00:16:30.539 the Legion a terrorist group. Yeah, that's a 00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:32.600 big escalation. And the laws have been updated 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:35.539 so that defecting to the enemy can get you 20 00:16:35.539 --> 00:16:38.860 years in prison. So they might downplay the raids 00:16:38.860 --> 00:16:41.980 in the state media to avoid panic, but legally 00:16:41.980 --> 00:16:45.320 and militarily, they're treating this as a serious 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:48.120 treasonous threat. It's just a wild situation 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:50.779 all around. You have a unit that might be a brilliant 00:16:50.779 --> 00:16:53.480 PR psyop, or it might be the seed of a future 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:56.720 civil war, or maybe it's both. And that ambiguity 00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:59.320 is actually part of its power. If the Russian 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:01.960 soldier sitting in the trench doesn't know if 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:04.279 the Legion is a real army or not, he still has 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:06.819 to worry about it. The fear is real even if the 00:17:06.819 --> 00:17:10.039 army isn't. Exactly. So let's summarize what 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:12.599 we found from the sources today. The Freedom 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:16.400 of Russia Legion is a unit built on massive contradictions. 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:18.940 Yes. They are Russian patriots fighting Russia. 00:17:19.369 --> 00:17:22.190 They are led by a former right -wing extremist 00:17:22.190 --> 00:17:25.450 who now preaches centrist moderation. And they 00:17:25.450 --> 00:17:27.890 conduct these highly cinematic cross -border 00:17:27.890 --> 00:17:30.650 raids that serve as both military distractions 00:17:30.650 --> 00:17:33.769 and heavy psychological warfare. And fundamentally, 00:17:33.910 --> 00:17:36.230 they challenge the monolithic view of the Russian 00:17:36.230 --> 00:17:38.509 military. They introduce a wild card into the 00:17:38.509 --> 00:17:40.710 conflict. Right. They show the world that the 00:17:40.710 --> 00:17:42.950 war isn't just a simple binary of Ukraine versus 00:17:42.950 --> 00:17:45.470 Russia. There's a fracture happening within Russia 00:17:45.470 --> 00:17:47.789 itself, however small or fragmented it might 00:17:47.789 --> 00:17:50.349 be right now. Which forces us to ask a really 00:17:50.349 --> 00:17:53.009 difficult question about the future for you listening. 00:17:53.230 --> 00:17:55.509 That's exactly where my mind goes. If we connect 00:17:55.509 --> 00:17:57.750 this to the bigger picture, let's say the war 00:17:57.750 --> 00:18:00.859 ends. Let's say there is a peace deal or a ceasefire 00:18:00.859 --> 00:18:03.259 tomorrow. What happens to the Freedom of Russia 00:18:03.259 --> 00:18:06.559 Legion? Well, they can't exactly go home to St. 00:18:06.619 --> 00:18:09.019 Petersburg and go back to being physiotherapists. 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.859 No. You have a group of men who are armed, battle 00:18:12.859 --> 00:18:15.900 -hardened, organized, and totally dedicated to 00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:18.480 the idea of a new Russia. Yeah. And they are 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:20.759 designated terrorists by their own government. 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:23.240 They likely can't stay in Ukraine forever as 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:25.160 an armed militia either. So where do they go? 00:18:25.450 --> 00:18:27.690 That is the provocative thought. Do they simply 00:18:27.690 --> 00:18:31.029 dissolve? Or do they become a new, unpredictable, 00:18:31.390 --> 00:18:34.269 insurgent force operating deep within Russia's 00:18:34.269 --> 00:18:37.269 borders? A rebel army with nowhere to go. That 00:18:37.269 --> 00:18:39.089 is a heavy thought to leave you with. It's a 00:18:39.089 --> 00:18:41.329 loose end that history rarely ties up neatly. 00:18:41.750 --> 00:18:44.230 Thanks for listening to this deep dive. We'll 00:18:44.230 --> 00:18:46.109 be back with another stack of papers and another 00:18:46.109 --> 00:18:48.109 fascinating topic soon. Stay curious.