WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.960 OK, so let's unpack this. We live in a world 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:07.040 that is just absolutely obsessed with categorization. 00:00:07.259 --> 00:00:09.839 Oh, completely. I mean, it's the way our brains 00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:12.720 are wired, right? Right. We want to know, is 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:15.759 this person an athlete or are they an artist? 00:00:15.779 --> 00:00:19.320 Right. Is this band indie rock or they're pop? 00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:22.640 Are you the guy in the dive bar with the sticky 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:25.260 floor? Yeah. Or are you the guy in the tuxedo 00:00:25.260 --> 00:00:27.199 at the symphony hall? We love our little boxes. 00:00:27.399 --> 00:00:29.879 Well. It is human nature. I mean, we categorize 00:00:29.879 --> 00:00:32.359 to understand things. It's a survival mechanism, 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:34.640 really. If we can label something, we feel like 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:36.679 we can predict it. Exactly. But the problem with 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:40.140 those boxes is that they are inherently limiting. 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:44.200 And usually the most interesting things, the 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:46.299 things that actually change culture, they happen 00:00:46.299 --> 00:00:48.280 right on the jagged edges where those boxes start 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:50.840 to tear apart. The friction point. Exactly. And 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:53.859 today we are taking a deep dive into the story 00:00:53.859 --> 00:00:56.479 of someone who doesn't just, you know, tear the 00:00:56.479 --> 00:00:59.399 cardboard, he essentially takes the boxes, sets 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:02.640 them on fire, and then conducts a full orchestra 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:04.799 while they burn. That is a great way to put it. 00:01:05.019 --> 00:01:07.760 We are talking about Ellis Ludwig Leone. A truly 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:10.420 fascinating subject. Because if you look at the 00:01:10.420 --> 00:01:13.120 contemporary soundscape, let's say the last 10 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:14.959 to 15 years of music coming out of New York, 00:01:15.420 --> 00:01:18.760 Ellis Ludwig Leone occupies a very specific, 00:01:18.900 --> 00:01:21.200 almost impossible coordinate. He really does. 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:23.500 I mean, most people, if they know the name at 00:01:23.500 --> 00:01:26.599 all, they know him as the brain behind the band 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:29.280 San Fermin. Yes. And if you've heard them, you 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:32.200 know it's not your typical four dudes in a garage 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:35.280 situation. Not at all. It's big. It's brassy. 00:01:35.459 --> 00:01:38.560 It's complicated. It feels huge. But here's where 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:40.760 it gets really interesting for this deep dive. 00:01:41.180 --> 00:01:43.879 That band is just the tip of the iceberg. It 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:46.579 really is. It might even be a red herring. Precisely. 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:49.099 Because if we limit our view of him to just, 00:01:49.099 --> 00:01:52.879 you know, indie pop bandleader, we miss the much 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:56.040 larger, much stranger picture entirely. Right. 00:01:56.379 --> 00:01:58.159 This is a composer who treats a pop band like 00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:00.799 a symphony orchestra. And conversely, he treats 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:02.879 a symphony orchestra like a storytelling device. 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:06.400 He is applying the rigor of classical composition 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:09.330 to the chaotic energy of a rock club. Which is 00:02:09.330 --> 00:02:12.270 wild. So our mission today, our goal for this 00:02:12.270 --> 00:02:15.750 deep dive is to figure out how a kid from rural 00:02:15.750 --> 00:02:18.870 Massachusetts went from playing competitive basketball. 00:02:19.009 --> 00:02:20.949 Which we definitely need to talk about. Oh, absolutely. 00:02:21.069 --> 00:02:22.810 I want to put a huge pin in the basketball thing 00:02:22.810 --> 00:02:25.729 because it's actually so important. But how he 00:02:25.729 --> 00:02:28.889 goes from that to writing ballets for the New 00:02:28.889 --> 00:02:31.169 York City Ballet and leading one of the most 00:02:31.169 --> 00:02:34.599 ambitious touring acts in indie music. It is 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.000 a journey into the architecture of sound. The 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:39.400 architecture of sound? I love that. That is the 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:41.099 theme I really want you to keep in mind today 00:02:41.099 --> 00:02:43.360 as we go through this. Whether he is writing 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:46.919 for a sweaty rock venue or Lincoln Center, Ludwig 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:49.780 Leone is building structures. He is an architect 00:02:49.780 --> 00:02:52.539 first and a musician second. OK, so let's look 00:02:52.539 --> 00:02:55.039 at the blueprints. We have a massive stack of 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:57.460 sources here for this deep dive. We do. We've 00:02:57.460 --> 00:03:00.379 got biographical data, career history, extensive 00:03:00.379 --> 00:03:03.479 lists of compositions, discographies, interviews, 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:05.719 you name it. And honestly, just scanning the 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:07.879 list of his works is a little dizzying. It is 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:10.180 a lot to take in. You have a track listing for 00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:12.719 a pop album sitting right next to a commission 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:16.360 for the Alabama Symphony Orchestra. It literally 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:18.789 looks like a clerical error. Which speaks perfectly 00:03:18.789 --> 00:03:21.069 to that refusal to be categorized that we mentioned 00:03:21.069 --> 00:03:23.849 earlier. But to understand how he got there, 00:03:24.289 --> 00:03:25.969 we have to go back to the beginning. The foundation. 00:03:26.289 --> 00:03:28.490 Exactly. We need to look at the foundation. Because 00:03:28.490 --> 00:03:30.569 you don't just wake up one day and decide to 00:03:30.569 --> 00:03:33.210 write a ballet and a rock album in the exact 00:03:33.210 --> 00:03:36.330 same week. Right. That duality has to be baked 00:03:36.330 --> 00:03:38.629 in from the start. Let's do it. Origin story 00:03:38.629 --> 00:03:43.069 time. So Ellis Ledwig Leone, born in 1989 in 00:03:43.069 --> 00:03:46.150 Rhode Island, but he grew up in Berkeley, Massachusetts. 00:03:46.229 --> 00:03:48.580 Now I look this up. Berkeley, Massachusetts is 00:03:48.580 --> 00:03:50.639 very much not Berkeley, California. No, it is 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:53.020 decidedly not. Right. It is a rural community 00:03:53.020 --> 00:03:56.819 on the South Coast. It's quiet. It's isolated. 00:03:57.159 --> 00:03:58.580 It's the kind of place we have a lot of space 00:03:58.580 --> 00:04:00.259 to think, but also the kind of place where you 00:04:00.259 --> 00:04:02.580 might get incredibly bored if you don't have 00:04:02.580 --> 00:04:05.139 an active imagination. Right. But his house, 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:08.960 probably not so quiet. Or at least visually loud, 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.500 if that makes sense. Because his parents were 00:04:11.500 --> 00:04:14.080 both painters and former visual arts professors. 00:04:14.300 --> 00:04:16.740 And this is a really crucial detail. Yeah. We 00:04:16.740 --> 00:04:19.540 so often talk about musical families, where the 00:04:19.540 --> 00:04:22.040 dad played jazz or the mom was an opera singer. 00:04:22.819 --> 00:04:25.649 But growing up in a visual arts household, is 00:04:25.649 --> 00:04:28.529 fundamentally different. How so? Well, imagine 00:04:28.529 --> 00:04:30.730 growing up in an environment where the primary 00:04:30.730 --> 00:04:34.069 language isn't just English, it's color, it's 00:04:34.069 --> 00:04:37.490 texture, it's balance and composition. When you 00:04:37.490 --> 00:04:40.470 are raised by visual artists, you learn to see 00:04:40.470 --> 00:04:42.670 the world differently from day one. You learn 00:04:42.670 --> 00:04:45.129 about foreground and background. I was actually 00:04:45.129 --> 00:04:46.589 thinking about that when I was going through 00:04:46.589 --> 00:04:50.529 the sources. Do you think he sees music? Like 00:04:50.529 --> 00:04:52.410 when he's writing a song, is he thinking in terms 00:04:52.410 --> 00:04:55.569 of painting? It is highly probable. I mean, there 00:04:55.569 --> 00:04:58.310 is a clinical concept called synesthesia where 00:04:58.310 --> 00:05:00.449 senses actually overlap. Right. Where you hear 00:05:00.449 --> 00:05:03.329 a C major chord and see the color yellow. Exactly. 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:06.639 But even without that specific clinical diagnosis, 00:05:07.060 --> 00:05:09.180 the vocabulary of visual art is definitely there 00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:11.300 in his work. When you listen to his arrangements, 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:13.579 especially in Sanfermin or his orchestral work, 00:05:13.980 --> 00:05:16.000 he doesn't just write a simple melody and slack 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:18.319 some chords under it. No, definitely not. He 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:22.259 layers. He creates immense density. He uses instruments, 00:05:22.660 --> 00:05:24.680 almost like a painter uses a palette knife. Oh, 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:26.540 that's interesting. He's adding a sharp splash 00:05:26.540 --> 00:05:29.360 of brass here to brighten the image or a wide 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:32.089 wash of strings over there to create depth. It's 00:05:32.089 --> 00:05:34.949 very, very textural. It's not linear. It's spatial. 00:05:35.269 --> 00:05:38.250 Exactly. He is quite literally filling a canvas. 00:05:38.990 --> 00:05:41.189 So he's painting with sound. That makes perfect 00:05:41.189 --> 00:05:44.529 sense given the background. But here's the curve 00:05:44.529 --> 00:05:46.329 ball. And this is the part I really wanted to 00:05:46.329 --> 00:05:49.509 dig into earlier. He wasn't just the artsy kid 00:05:49.509 --> 00:05:51.290 sitting in the corner sketching in a notebook 00:05:51.290 --> 00:05:53.470 while everyone else was outside. No, he was not. 00:05:53.509 --> 00:05:55.550 He played competitive basketball, which is a 00:05:55.550 --> 00:05:58.910 detail I absolutely love because it completely 00:05:58.910 --> 00:06:02.089 shatters the stereotype of the fragile, brooding 00:06:02.089 --> 00:06:04.589 indoor composer. Right. I mean, I'm picturing 00:06:04.589 --> 00:06:06.910 this guy practicing these intricate scales on 00:06:06.910 --> 00:06:09.889 the piano for three hours and then lacing up 00:06:09.889 --> 00:06:12.029 his sneakers and running suicide drills on the 00:06:12.029 --> 00:06:13.790 court. It feels like two completely different 00:06:13.790 --> 00:06:16.949 people inhabiting the same body. It seems contradictory 00:06:16.949 --> 00:06:19.790 on On the surface, yes. But I want to challenge 00:06:19.790 --> 00:06:22.490 that assumption. Because if you really think 00:06:22.490 --> 00:06:25.550 about it, there is a very strong parallel between 00:06:25.550 --> 00:06:28.029 the two. Really? Between piano and basketball? 00:06:28.269 --> 00:06:32.110 Absolutely. Both require intense, repetitive, 00:06:32.389 --> 00:06:35.009 almost grueling discipline. You don't get good 00:06:35.009 --> 00:06:37.449 at classical piano by just feeling the music. 00:06:37.689 --> 00:06:39.589 And you don't get good at basketball by just 00:06:39.589 --> 00:06:41.930 showing up to the game. Yeah, that's true. It's 00:06:41.930 --> 00:06:44.329 trill work. It's repetition. It's building muscle 00:06:44.329 --> 00:06:47.259 memory until the action becomes instinct. The 00:06:47.259 --> 00:06:49.959 grind is exactly the same. But I want to pause 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:51.660 on this basketball detail for another second 00:06:51.660 --> 00:06:53.439 because I think it's more than just a fun fact 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:56.079 about his work ethic. We have a note here from 00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:58.740 one of the interviews in our sources where Ludwig 00:06:58.740 --> 00:07:01.480 Leoni talks specifically about the role of the 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:04.379 point guard. Right. And this is where the psychology 00:07:04.379 --> 00:07:06.540 of the composer really starts to reveal itself. 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:08.779 If you think about the point guard in basketball, 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:11.540 they aren't just out there scoring points. No, 00:07:11.620 --> 00:07:13.519 they're running the play. They are the floor 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:15.779 general. They have to see the spatial geometry 00:07:15.779 --> 00:07:18.120 of 10 massive people moving around the court 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:20.600 in real time. They have to know where everyone 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:22.480 is supposed to be before they even get there. 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.279 Which is exactly what a conductor does. Exactly. 00:07:25.699 --> 00:07:29.319 A conductor or a composer writing for eight distinct 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:33.290 instruments is managing traffic. They are anticipating 00:07:33.290 --> 00:07:35.589 the crash before it happens. They are controlling 00:07:35.589 --> 00:07:38.730 the flow of time and energy. Ludwig Leone has 00:07:38.730 --> 00:07:40.689 this great quote where he compares the flow state 00:07:40.689 --> 00:07:43.490 of a fast break in basketball to the flow state 00:07:43.490 --> 00:07:46.069 of navigating a really complex polyrhythm in 00:07:46.069 --> 00:07:52.240 music. completely strips the elitism out of the 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:54.000 classical side of things. It really does. It 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:56.720 turns the orchestra into a team sport. It makes 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:58.920 the conductor the point guard. And I think it 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:00.540 explains the aggression in some of his music, 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.240 too. The aggression. Yes. We tend to think of 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:07.180 the genre chamber pop as delicate, you know, 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:09.879 tea and doilies, polite little string sections. 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.199 Yeah. But if you listen to a track like Jackrabbit, 00:08:12.379 --> 00:08:14.240 which we will definitely discuss later. We are 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:16.639 absolutely talking about Jackrabbit. That track 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:20.339 isn't delicate. It's athletic. It's muscular. 00:08:20.819 --> 00:08:23.819 It practically sweats. It's a contact sport. 00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:26.060 The brass section isn't asking for permission. 00:08:26.220 --> 00:08:29.600 It's driving the lane hard. Exactly. There is 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:32.779 a real physicality to his music. It drives. It 00:08:32.779 --> 00:08:35.519 has momentum It's not passive background music 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:37.759 and don't forget while he was doing the classical 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:39.620 piano thing and the competitive basketball thing 00:08:39.620 --> 00:08:42.240 He was also doing the very normal teenager thing 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:44.580 which is playing in a string of high school rock 00:08:44.580 --> 00:08:47.799 bands Oh, right the classic garage band phase 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:51.200 the loud messy. Let's completely annoy the neighbors 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.200 phase exactly But notice the duality starting 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:57.679 even back then in high school by day He's studying 00:08:57.679 --> 00:08:59.960 the intricate mathematical structure of classical 00:08:59.960 --> 00:09:03.200 piano. Bach, Beethoven, the strict rules of harmony. 00:09:03.820 --> 00:09:06.059 But by night, he's probably banging out power 00:09:06.059 --> 00:09:08.460 chords in a rock band, where the only real rule 00:09:08.460 --> 00:09:10.820 is, be as loud as possible. It's two different 00:09:10.820 --> 00:09:13.279 worlds. And most kids eventually choose one lane. 00:09:13.620 --> 00:09:15.639 They either get serious, go to the conservatory 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:18.600 and drop the rock stuff, or they buy a van and 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:20.769 abandon the classical training. He didn't choose. 00:09:20.990 --> 00:09:22.649 He just kept widening the highway so he could 00:09:22.649 --> 00:09:25.129 drive in both lanes at the exact same time. And 00:09:25.129 --> 00:09:26.789 speaking of that highway, we have to talk about 00:09:26.789 --> 00:09:29.830 a really critical pit stop. So he's 15 years 00:09:29.830 --> 00:09:32.490 old. He goes to a summer program at the Berklee 00:09:32.490 --> 00:09:35.029 College of Music in Boston. And he meets a guy 00:09:35.029 --> 00:09:38.269 named Alan Tate. This is what I would call a 00:09:38.269 --> 00:09:41.309 true catalyst moment in his life. Without this 00:09:41.309 --> 00:09:43.639 specific meeting, The rest of the story we're 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:45.500 talking about today probably doesn't happen. 00:09:45.779 --> 00:09:48.059 Alan Tate, if you know Sanfermin at all, you 00:09:48.059 --> 00:09:50.500 know that voice. Oh, you can't miss it. It's 00:09:50.500 --> 00:09:53.639 this deep, incredible baritone. It sounds like 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:56.220 it's coming from the bottom of a very dark well. 00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:59.220 And they met when they were 15. 15 years old. 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:01.360 Yeah. And consider the odds of that for a second. 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:03.659 You meet someone at a summer camp as a teenager, 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:06.580 and that person ends up becoming your primary 00:10:06.580 --> 00:10:09.740 creative partner for the next two decades. It 00:10:09.740 --> 00:10:12.379 never happens. Usually summer camp friends drift 00:10:12.379 --> 00:10:15.100 apart after a few months of texting. It's wild. 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:17.179 It's like meeting your Lenin or McCartney in 00:10:17.179 --> 00:10:19.779 sophomore homeroom. But let's talk about that 00:10:19.779 --> 00:10:21.580 voice for a second because it's not just a cool 00:10:21.580 --> 00:10:25.220 voice. Why was Tate's specific vocal register 00:10:25.220 --> 00:10:28.259 so important for what Ellis wanted to build musically? 00:10:28.820 --> 00:10:30.659 Let's go back to the architecture metaphor again. 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:33.620 Okay. If you are building a massive musical structure, 00:10:33.870 --> 00:10:37.029 with violins, trumpets, synthesizers, and female 00:10:37.029 --> 00:10:39.450 vocals, all of which are usually operating in 00:10:39.450 --> 00:10:42.470 a much higher sonic register, you need a foundation. 00:10:42.490 --> 00:10:44.710 You need a floor. You need something to anchor 00:10:44.710 --> 00:10:48.110 the whole thing to the earth. Alan Tate's voice 00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:52.669 is that anchor. It is steady. It's low, and it's 00:10:52.669 --> 00:10:54.649 incredibly resonant. It allows Ellis to build 00:10:54.649 --> 00:10:56.929 all these frantic, high -energy, high -pitch 00:10:56.929 --> 00:10:59.450 arrangements on top of it without the song just 00:10:59.450 --> 00:11:01.210 floating away into the stratosphere. So Tate 00:11:01.210 --> 00:11:03.330 literally provides the gravity for the music. 00:11:03.509 --> 00:11:05.389 Exactly. And it highlights the importance of 00:11:05.389 --> 00:11:08.049 those early networks. But I think it also tells 00:11:08.049 --> 00:11:10.649 us something profound about Lev Clione's loyalty 00:11:10.649 --> 00:11:13.570 and his artistic vision. He recognized something 00:11:13.570 --> 00:11:15.509 essential in Tate's voice, even when they were 00:11:15.509 --> 00:11:17.789 kids. Or perhaps they just clicked personally. 00:11:17.870 --> 00:11:20.230 But either way, he held onto that connection. 00:11:20.899 --> 00:11:23.860 Tate became the definitive voice of San Fermin. 00:11:24.220 --> 00:11:26.659 So let's recap where he's at. He's got the visual 00:11:26.659 --> 00:11:28.820 art background from his parents, the athletic 00:11:28.820 --> 00:11:31.940 discipline from basketball, the rock band experience, 00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:34.419 the classical piano chops, and now he's got his 00:11:34.419 --> 00:11:37.080 lead singer on speed dial. Right. But he doesn't 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:38.840 just start the band and hit the road immediately. 00:11:38.940 --> 00:11:41.399 He goes to Yale. And this is where the classical 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:44.360 composer identity really solidifies for him. 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:48.259 He attends Yale University and graduates in 2011 00:11:48.259 --> 00:11:50.639 with a degree in classical composition. Which 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:53.500 is serious stuff. Yale isn't exactly a garage 00:11:53.500 --> 00:11:56.480 band rehearsal space that's heavy academic rigor 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:58.720 that is learning every single rule before you're 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:00.639 allowed to break them. It is very traditional 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:03.080 in many ways. Yeah. But what stands out in the 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:05.379 source material we reviewed is that he wasn't 00:12:05.379 --> 00:12:08.299 just sitting quietly in a lecture hall analyzing 00:12:08.299 --> 00:12:11.269 Mozart scores. He was busy. He was incredibly 00:12:11.269 --> 00:12:14.309 active. He began writing music for his own bands 00:12:14.309 --> 00:12:16.809 and various ensembles while he was still studying. 00:12:17.210 --> 00:12:19.509 He was taking the theoretical concepts from the 00:12:19.509 --> 00:12:21.970 classroom and testing them in real time. He didn't 00:12:21.970 --> 00:12:24.389 wait for the fancy diploma to start doing the 00:12:24.389 --> 00:12:27.889 actual work. Not at all. And that immense drive 00:12:27.889 --> 00:12:31.870 led to another massive trajectory altering connection. 00:12:32.289 --> 00:12:34.909 While he was still a junior at Yale, he started 00:12:34.909 --> 00:12:37.370 working as an assistant for the composer, Nico 00:12:37.370 --> 00:12:39.399 Moly. Okay, for those listening who might not 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:42.259 know, can you give us the deep dive on Nico Mulli? 00:12:42.460 --> 00:12:45.980 Gladly. Because why is that name drop so important? 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:48.139 To the average person, that name might not mean 00:12:48.139 --> 00:12:51.519 much, but in this specific musical world, it's 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:54.840 a huge deal. Nico Mulli is an absolute giant 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:57.179 in the contemporary classical world, but more 00:12:57.179 --> 00:12:59.539 importantly for our story, he is essentially 00:12:59.539 --> 00:13:02.919 the prototype for the modern genre -less composer. 00:13:03.100 --> 00:13:05.659 The guy who breaks the boxes. Exactly. He is 00:13:05.659 --> 00:13:07.720 known for exactly the kind of thing Ludwig Lyon 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:10.200 eventually does, blurring the lines completely. 00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:13.000 Moody has written grand operas for the Metropolitan 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:15.399 Opera, but he's also worked intimately with massive 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:17.759 indie bands like Grizzly Bear, The National, 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:20.299 and Björk. He exists in both of those worlds 00:13:20.299 --> 00:13:22.460 completely comfortably. So getting to assist 00:13:22.460 --> 00:13:24.460 a guy like that, that's not just an internship, 00:13:24.580 --> 00:13:26.639 that's a master class in how to build a career. 00:13:27.059 --> 00:13:29.240 It is an apprenticeship in the truest, oldest 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:31.860 sense of the word. But let's look at the timeline 00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:34.799 here, and what the Nico Mulli connection implies 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.539 about the New York music ecosystem. Okay. It's 00:13:37.539 --> 00:13:40.240 not just that he got a good job. It's about who 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.179 holds the keys to the city, right? It's about 00:13:42.179 --> 00:13:46.399 access. Precisely. Mulli is essentially the central 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:49.980 hub of a very specific, very influential wheel 00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:53.399 in Manhattan. To sit in that room, to see exactly 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:56.080 how Mulli works day to day, it teaches you the 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:58.120 kitchen sink aesthetic. What do you mean by that? 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:01.480 If you look at Mully's work, how he effortlessly 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:03.399 integrates electronic beats with the Renaissance 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:06.159 lute or a traditional choir with a synthesizer 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:09.139 drone, you see the exact blueprint for what Ellis 00:14:09.139 --> 00:14:11.919 would later do with Sam Fairman. Ah, I see. He 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:14.120 learned by watching Mully that there are absolutely 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:16.860 no illegal combinations of instruments. So it's 00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:19.720 permission. Working for Mully gave him the permission 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:22.840 to be weird, to try things that shouldn't work. 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:27.100 Yes. And on a purely practical level, it bridges 00:14:27.100 --> 00:14:30.820 the gap between being a Yale student who writes 00:14:30.820 --> 00:14:33.639 academic papers about music and being a working 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:36.419 artist who actually survives in the cutthroat 00:14:36.419 --> 00:14:38.340 ecosystem of New York City. Right, because you 00:14:38.340 --> 00:14:41.620 have to pay rent. Exactly. It established a lasting 00:14:41.620 --> 00:14:44.240 professional relationship, but more importantly, 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:47.919 it likely showed Ludwig Lyon that a career straddling 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:51.379 these two seemingly opposed worlds was actually 00:14:51.379 --> 00:14:54.039 financially and logistically possible. He saw 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:56.200 someone doing it successful. Okay, so he graduates 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.580 Yale in 2011. He's got the Ivy League degree. 00:14:58.659 --> 00:15:00.799 He's got the master apprentice mentorship with 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:03.539 Nico Mouli. Now comes the turning point, the 00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:05.580 real origin of the sound, the cabin in the woods 00:15:05.580 --> 00:15:08.080 moment. Yes, the Banff residency. Yes, so he 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:10.159 takes an artistic residency. at the Banff Center 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:13.000 for Arts and Creativity in Alberta, Canada. Now, 00:15:13.220 --> 00:15:14.980 I looked this place up while prepping for this. 00:15:15.059 --> 00:15:17.960 It's stunning. It is gorgeous, but it is secluded. 00:15:18.100 --> 00:15:20.220 I mean, it's away from the noise of New York, 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.139 away from the academic pressure of Yale. It's 00:15:23.139 --> 00:15:25.840 basically just giant mountains and a lot of snow. 00:15:26.139 --> 00:15:28.580 And we really need applause on this, because 00:15:28.580 --> 00:15:32.889 on paper, an artist residency... Sounds like 00:15:32.889 --> 00:15:35.429 a luxury vacation. Right. It sounds amazing. 00:15:35.610 --> 00:15:37.269 You go to Canada, you look at some beautiful 00:15:37.269 --> 00:15:39.029 mountains, you write some nice songs. Sounds 00:15:39.029 --> 00:15:41.149 incredibly relaxing, right? Sign me up tomorrow. 00:15:41.850 --> 00:15:45.289 But it is definitely not a vacation. Have you 00:15:45.289 --> 00:15:47.690 ever actually tried to be creative when you have 00:15:47.690 --> 00:15:50.009 absolute zero distractions? Oh, it's brutal. 00:15:50.809 --> 00:15:52.830 When there is no internet, no phone ringing? 00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:55.360 no friends to meet for coffee down the street. 00:15:55.700 --> 00:15:58.200 It's actually terrifying. It's the classic blank 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.679 page problem, but the blank page is your entire 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:03.559 life for six straight weeks. Exactly. Isolation 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:06.159 can be a powerful tool for a composer, but it 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:09.019 is a crucible. When you strip away all the daily 00:16:09.019 --> 00:16:11.559 inputs, the traffic noise, the phone calls, the 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:13.940 social obligations, you are left with just your 00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:16.500 own internal noise, and you have to sort through 00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:18.429 it. And I read in the background notes from the 00:16:18.429 --> 00:16:20.990 sources that he spent weeks up there, essentially 00:16:20.990 --> 00:16:24.590 entirely alone in a small hut. No cell service, 00:16:24.669 --> 00:16:27.350 just him and a keyboard. And that kind of silence 00:16:27.350 --> 00:16:30.309 is deafeningly loud. This is the crucial moment 00:16:30.309 --> 00:16:33.129 for the Sansherman album. Up until this exact 00:16:33.129 --> 00:16:36.610 point, Ellis is a student. He's constantly surrounded 00:16:36.610 --> 00:16:40.070 by professors, by Nico Mulli, by the bustle of 00:16:40.070 --> 00:16:43.360 Yale in New York. Suddenly... He's in the middle 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.679 of the Canadian wilderness, and he has to ask 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.580 himself the scariest question an artist can ask. 00:16:48.980 --> 00:16:51.100 What do I actually sound like? When no one else 00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:53.480 is in the room? Exactly. And the sound he found 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:55.879 up there wasn't quiet. That's the grand irony 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.019 of this whole thing. He's in this silent, pristine, 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:02.879 snowy landscape, and he writes an album that 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.660 is explosive. It's chaotic, it's dense, and it's 00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:09.480 full of dozens of voices. I think that is the 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:11.859 key psychological insight here. He was writing 00:17:11.859 --> 00:17:14.539 the company he wished he had. Oh, wow. He was 00:17:14.539 --> 00:17:16.740 populating that lonely cabin with imaginary friends 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:18.839 here at the baritone, the soprano, the sweeping 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:21.500 brass section. He literally built a massive party 00:17:21.500 --> 00:17:23.779 in the middle of nowhere specifically because 00:17:23.779 --> 00:17:26.000 he was lonely. That is such a cool way to look 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.480 at it. The album is a direct reaction to the 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:30.900 silence. It's him fighting back against the isolation. 00:17:31.180 --> 00:17:33.240 And this is a very crucial distinction for you 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:35.420 listening to understand. He didn't get a bunch 00:17:35.420 --> 00:17:37.359 of guys together in a damp rehearsal room in 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:39.980 Brooklyn and jam for hours until they found a 00:17:39.980 --> 00:17:42.420 cool song. Which is how 99 % of bands start. 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:45.299 Exactly. He went to a secluded place and he wrote 00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:48.470 the entire album. He composed it on paper. Like 00:17:48.470 --> 00:17:50.750 a symphony. That's a huge difference in methodology. 00:17:51.029 --> 00:17:52.970 It is a defining difference between a traditional 00:17:52.970 --> 00:17:56.069 rock band and a project led by a classical composer. 00:17:56.609 --> 00:17:59.430 He wrote the score first, and then, once the 00:17:59.430 --> 00:18:02.289 music fully existed on the page or in his early 00:18:02.289 --> 00:18:04.769 demos, he had to go out into the real world and 00:18:04.769 --> 00:18:07.109 find the specific people capable of executing 00:18:07.109 --> 00:18:10.390 it. Which brings us to 2013. The self -titled 00:18:10.390 --> 00:18:12.930 album San for Men is officially released on downtown 00:18:12.930 --> 00:18:16.190 records, and people absolutely loved it. Critical 00:18:16.190 --> 00:18:19.009 acclaim is the phrase heavily used across our 00:18:19.009 --> 00:18:21.509 sources. It really resonated. It hit a nerve 00:18:21.509 --> 00:18:23.650 in the indie music scene. But because he wrote 00:18:23.650 --> 00:18:26.589 it first and because it was this massive, complex, 00:18:26.809 --> 00:18:29.049 orchestral pop sound with all these imaginary 00:18:29.049 --> 00:18:31.190 friends, he couldn't just hire a drummer and 00:18:31.190 --> 00:18:33.730 a bass player and go play a club. No. He had 00:18:33.730 --> 00:18:36.910 inadvertently created a logistical monster. The 00:18:36.910 --> 00:18:39.630 music completely demanded more. This prompted 00:18:39.630 --> 00:18:42.210 the formation of an eight -person touring band. 00:18:42.390 --> 00:18:45.059 Eight people. In a van. Let's just talk about 00:18:45.059 --> 00:18:47.359 the grim economic reality of that for a second. 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.140 It is an absolute economic nightmare. Most indie 00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:53.359 bands are a duo or a trio for a very specific 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.460 reason. Math. Yeah. Fewer mouths to feed at the 00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:59.460 diner, fewer hotel rooms to book, everyone fits 00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:01.839 in one vehicle. Precisely. To tour with eight 00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:04.599 people plus all their instruments plus the sound 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.420 gear means you are splitting every single guarantee 00:19:07.420 --> 00:19:10.700 check from a venue eight ways. which leaves basically 00:19:10.700 --> 00:19:13.680 nothing. You need two vans or a very expensive 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:16.880 bus. The profit margins are razor thin, if they 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:19.380 exist at all. Artistically, however, it was a 00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:21.700 strict necessity. He couldn't compromise. Right. 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:24.420 If you want those sweeping brass textures, the 00:19:24.420 --> 00:19:26.980 intricate female and male vocal interplay, the 00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:29.200 live violin, the complex percussion, you need 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.700 actual physical bodies on stage making those 00:19:31.700 --> 00:19:34.039 sounds. It speaks directly to his composer -first 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:36.970 mentality. He simply wasn't willing to compromise 00:19:36.970 --> 00:19:39.250 the architecture of the sound just to make curing 00:19:39.250 --> 00:19:42.829 cheaper or easier. He essentially prioritized 00:19:42.829 --> 00:19:45.230 the integrity of the composition over the profitability 00:19:45.230 --> 00:19:48.079 of the tour. That is an incredibly rare move 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:50.319 in today's music industry. So let's look at what 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:53.119 that sound actually is. We've got four main studio 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:55.839 albums listed here in the sources. The self -titled 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.480 debut in 2013, Jack Rabbit in 2015, Belong in 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:03.059 2017, and the cormorant parts I & II in 2020. 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:05.660 And notice the progression and the constant control 00:20:05.660 --> 00:20:08.740 there. He is the sole songwriter and producer 00:20:08.740 --> 00:20:10.660 for all of them. The genre label gets thrown 00:20:10.660 --> 00:20:12.839 around a lot in the press clippings we have here, 00:20:13.099 --> 00:20:16.140 chamber pop, indie pop. But let's really unpack 00:20:16.140 --> 00:20:17.700 chamber pop because it sounds like something 00:20:17.700 --> 00:20:19.779 you'd listen to while drinking chamomile tea 00:20:19.779 --> 00:20:22.339 with your pinky out. But Sanford and Rock's pretty 00:20:22.339 --> 00:20:25.079 hard life. It is a fusion term, certainly. Yeah. 00:20:25.259 --> 00:20:26.619 But we keep throwing it around. So I want to 00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:28.319 really take that apart for the listener because 00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:30.700 usually. When you mix an orchestra with a rock 00:20:30.700 --> 00:20:33.059 band, it sounds like a cheap gimmick. Yeah, like 00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:35.740 when a legacy metal band plays with a local symphony. 00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:38.220 Exactly. It just sounds like two entirely separate 00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:40.740 things glued together. The oil and water problem. 00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:43.299 Right. The violin sounds like it's just awkwardly 00:20:43.299 --> 00:20:45.519 floating on top of the drums, not actually part 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.720 of the groove. Precisely. But Ludwig Lyon does 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:50.740 something fundamentally different with his arrangements. 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:54.380 He treats the human voice as an instrument, and 00:20:54.380 --> 00:20:56.640 he treats the physical instruments as voices. 00:20:57.339 --> 00:21:00.000 In the source material, specifically in the liner 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.680 notes for the album Belong, he talks extensively 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:05.539 about interlocking textures. Help me visualize 00:21:05.539 --> 00:21:08.259 that. What does interlocking mean in this context? 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:11.980 Okay, imagine a standard rock song. Usually the 00:21:11.980 --> 00:21:14.099 electric guitar strums a big distorted chord, 00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:16.940 and that sound fills up all the sonic space in 00:21:16.940 --> 00:21:19.700 the middle. It's a wall of sound. Sure. In Ellis's 00:21:19.700 --> 00:21:22.299 writing, that one guitar part might be completely 00:21:22.299 --> 00:21:24.859 split up. The cello takes the low end of the 00:21:24.859 --> 00:21:27.420 chord, the trumpet takes the middle stab, and 00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:29.880 the violin takes the high fluttering notes. Oh, 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.519 wow. So the chord itself is actually three different 00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:34.539 human beings standing 10 feet apart from each 00:21:34.539 --> 00:21:37.299 other on the stage. Yes. It creates this incredible 00:21:37.299 --> 00:21:41.019 3D audio effect, but it's also incredibly fragile. 00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:43.319 If one person misses their cue by a fraction 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:46.160 of a second, the whole chord falls apart. That's 00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:49.019 terrifying. That's the chamber element of chamber 00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:53.410 pop. the absolute reliance on the entire ensemble 00:21:53.410 --> 00:21:57.809 to create a single unified sound. It's high stakes 00:21:57.809 --> 00:22:00.130 musical Jenga. That makes the live show sound 00:22:00.130 --> 00:22:02.009 incredible to watch. You're literally watching 00:22:02.009 --> 00:22:04.789 them construct the music in real time piece by 00:22:04.789 --> 00:22:07.410 piece. Exactly. If we look at the trajectory 00:22:07.410 --> 00:22:10.329 of the four albums, you can really see the evolution 00:22:10.329 --> 00:22:13.549 of this interlocking concept. San Furman, the 00:22:13.549 --> 00:22:15.589 debut, is the grand thesis statement. Right. 00:22:15.789 --> 00:22:17.710 It's operatic. It's introducing all the characters. 00:22:17.789 --> 00:22:19.849 It's very theatrical. Then comes Jack Rabbit 00:22:19.849 --> 00:22:22.309 in 2015. We mentioned this one earlier. Jack 00:22:22.309 --> 00:22:24.890 Rabbit is the panic attack. It really is. It's 00:22:24.890 --> 00:22:27.829 faster. It's much more aggressive. The athleticism 00:22:27.829 --> 00:22:30.369 we talked about with the basketball analogy is 00:22:30.369 --> 00:22:32.470 all over this record. The themes are about running 00:22:32.470 --> 00:22:35.549 away, hiding, being hunted. Then belong in 2017. 00:22:35.849 --> 00:22:38.049 That one feels like the identity crisis. It's 00:22:38.049 --> 00:22:40.410 a bit more song focused, a bit more vulnerable. 00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:42.950 It's asking, where do I actually fit in all this? 00:22:43.069 --> 00:22:46.089 And finally, The Cormorant in 2020. This is a 00:22:46.089 --> 00:22:48.490 massive double album. It feels like walking through 00:22:48.490 --> 00:22:51.930 a memory palace. It's ghostly, very atmospheric. 00:22:52.269 --> 00:22:54.430 It circles back to some of the sweeping themes 00:22:54.430 --> 00:22:57.329 from the first record, but with a lot more maturity. 00:22:57.650 --> 00:23:00.029 It's less about the initial bang and much more 00:23:00.029 --> 00:23:02.779 about the lingering haunt. It's a hell of a run 00:23:02.779 --> 00:23:05.720 of records. And throughout all of this, the collaboration 00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:08.799 is the key. We mentioned Alan Tate from the summer 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:11.619 camp days, but in 2020 they actually took it 00:23:11.619 --> 00:23:14.079 a step further. They founded a record label together 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:17.819 called Better Company. Yes, with Alan Tate and 00:23:17.819 --> 00:23:21.220 their longtime manager Thomas Winkler. And this 00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:24.099 is highly significant for his career arc. It 00:23:24.099 --> 00:23:27.099 shows a definitive shift from just being the 00:23:27.099 --> 00:23:29.440 working artist to becoming the industry creator. 00:23:29.539 --> 00:23:31.740 Taking control of the business side of the art. 00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:35.220 And better company. Even the name itself suggests 00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:37.839 a curatorial approach. It suggests they want 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:39.900 to actively surround themselves with other artists 00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:43.299 they respect. It's about creating a new, sustainable 00:23:43.299 --> 00:23:45.759 ecosystem. Maybe one that treats independent 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:47.799 artists better than the traditional music industry 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:50.180 machinery does. So he's got the critically acclaimed, 00:23:50.619 --> 00:23:52.799 successful touring band. He's got his own record 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.279 label. For most people, that's a full career. 00:23:55.579 --> 00:23:57.839 That's a job well done, time to retire to the 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:00.279 beach situation. Absolutely. But for Ellis Lyde 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.759 McLeone, that's seemingly just his day job. This 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:05.940 is where we pivot to the other side of his brain. 00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:08.960 The classical composer. The other lane on the 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:11.599 highway. Exactly. And I really want to emphasize 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:15.579 this for you listening. This isn't a side hustle, 00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:18.900 right? This isn't some bored rock star releasing 00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:21.279 a vanity project of synthesizer noodles because 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:24.299 he has too much free time in the studio This 00:24:24.299 --> 00:24:27.839 is a robust highly respected, separate career, 00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:30.859 running entirely parallel to the pop band. The 00:24:30.859 --> 00:24:33.380 list of institutions he's written for is genuinely 00:24:33.380 --> 00:24:35.420 intimidating. I mean, we're talking the New York 00:24:35.420 --> 00:24:38.740 City Ballet, the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra, 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:41.759 the Brooklyn Youth Chorus, the Ataca Quartet. 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:44.339 These are absolute top tier cultural institutions. 00:24:44.579 --> 00:24:46.759 They do not commission hobbyists. They commission 00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:49.410 serious proven composers. Let's look at some 00:24:49.410 --> 00:24:51.529 of these titles because I feel like titles in 00:24:51.529 --> 00:24:53.990 classical music can be, well, let's be honest, 00:24:54.130 --> 00:24:56.230 kind of boring. Very academic. Yeah, Symphony 00:24:56.230 --> 00:25:01.410 No. 4 in G major. Total snooze. But Ellis, he's 00:25:01.410 --> 00:25:03.730 giving us titles that sound like short stories 00:25:03.730 --> 00:25:07.250 or cool indie films. They are incredibly evocative. 00:25:07.529 --> 00:25:09.670 Take the piece he wrote for the Alabama Symphony 00:25:09.670 --> 00:25:12.049 Orchestra back in 2015. How to fake your death. 00:25:12.430 --> 00:25:15.130 Yes. How to fake your death. I mean, come on. 00:25:15.170 --> 00:25:16.690 That's a movie I want to buy a ticket for right 00:25:16.690 --> 00:25:19.190 now. For an orchestra piece, it immediately sets 00:25:19.190 --> 00:25:21.910 a tone before a single note is played. It's noir. 00:25:22.349 --> 00:25:25.009 It's mysterious. It's got a dark sense of humor. 00:25:25.089 --> 00:25:27.769 And it suggests a specific narrative. He isn't 00:25:27.769 --> 00:25:29.910 just exploring a musical key abstractly. He's 00:25:29.910 --> 00:25:32.410 telling a distinct story. It subverts the rigid 00:25:32.410 --> 00:25:35.180 expectation of the symphony hall. You walk in 00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:37.220 expecting something formal and stuffy, and he 00:25:37.220 --> 00:25:39.500 hands you a pulp crime novel. Oh, look at the 00:25:39.500 --> 00:25:41.960 piece for the harpist, Lavinia Meijer. Shadowy 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:45.279 figures. Again, highly visual, very mysterious. 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.119 And then there's his chamber music, processional 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:50.759 for a doomed wedding. That is easily my favorite 00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:52.779 title on this entire list. It's so inherently 00:25:52.779 --> 00:25:55.099 dramatic, but processional for a doomed wedding. 00:25:55.539 --> 00:25:57.299 It makes you wonder immediately, is the music 00:25:57.299 --> 00:26:00.319 incredibly sad? Is it chaotic? Is it actually 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.420 funny? It suggests a complete subversion of tradition. 00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:06.119 Because think about it. A wedding processional 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:10.599 is supposed to be joyous, orderly, hopeful. Right. 00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:13.200 Walking down the aisle. By adding the word doomed 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:16.440 to the title, he twists the entire conceptual 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.150 framework. It connects right back to that chamber 00:26:19.150 --> 00:26:22.150 pop idea, taking a very traditional established 00:26:22.150 --> 00:26:25.650 form and injecting it with raw modern anxiety. 00:26:26.289 --> 00:26:28.710 It's pure irony. It also shows he's not taking 00:26:28.710 --> 00:26:31.730 himself entirely too seriously, or rather he's 00:26:31.730 --> 00:26:34.289 taking the music very seriously, but he's allowing 00:26:34.289 --> 00:26:36.769 the audience to have a fun entry point that isn't 00:26:36.769 --> 00:26:39.410 just dry music theory. Yes. You don't need a 00:26:39.410 --> 00:26:41.869 master's degree from Yale to understand the vibe 00:26:41.869 --> 00:26:44.450 of a doomed wedding. Which is absolutely key 00:26:44.450 --> 00:26:46.519 for accessibility. I also noticed some of the 00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:48.720 choral works have really, really specific titles. 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.799 Lying in a Field, age 67, and Singing in a Chorus, 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:54.220 age 14. Those were commissioned for the Brooklyn 00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:56.319 Youth Chorus. What stands out to you about those 00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:58.700 specific titles? The pinpoint specificity of 00:26:58.700 --> 00:27:04.319 the ages. Age 67. Age 14. It strongly suggests 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:07.339 a deep focus on time. On the process of aging. 00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:11.099 On the unreliability of memory. It grounds the 00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:13.720 somewhat abstract airy sound of a large choir 00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:16.299 in a very specific grounded human experience. 00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:19.059 It forces you to think about the long timeline 00:27:19.059 --> 00:27:21.920 of a single life. It's cool because he's writing 00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:25.599 these pieces for a youth chorus, literal kids, 00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:28.400 but the title reference is being 67 years old. 00:27:29.019 --> 00:27:31.259 There's a beautiful juxtaposition there between 00:27:31.259 --> 00:27:33.730 the performers and the subject matter. and we 00:27:33.730 --> 00:27:36.150 see that same avant -garde edge in other titles 00:27:36.150 --> 00:27:38.210 too. Look at speech after the removal of the 00:27:38.210 --> 00:27:40.049 larynx. That was written for the ataca quartet. 00:27:40.109 --> 00:27:43.170 Whoa, that sounds intense. That sounds like body 00:27:43.170 --> 00:27:45.369 horror. It is highly experimental. It pushes 00:27:45.369 --> 00:27:47.529 boundaries. It suggests he's using string instruments 00:27:47.529 --> 00:27:50.250 to explore the very limits of communication or 00:27:50.250 --> 00:27:52.890 the physical loss of a voice. It shows he's not 00:27:52.890 --> 00:27:55.109 afraid to make the audience feel deeply uncomfortable. 00:27:55.289 --> 00:27:57.170 We also have to talk about the ballet connection 00:27:57.170 --> 00:27:59.349 because that's a whole different world. He collaborates 00:27:59.349 --> 00:28:01.670 frequently with a choreographer named Troy Schumacher. 00:28:02.069 --> 00:28:04.670 Yes. On works like Common Ground for the New 00:28:04.670 --> 00:28:07.470 York City Ballet and the Impulse Wants Company 00:28:07.470 --> 00:28:10.230 for Ballet Collective. Writing for dance just 00:28:10.230 --> 00:28:11.970 has to be fundamentally different than writing 00:28:11.970 --> 00:28:14.609 for a rock band, right? It requires a completely 00:28:14.609 --> 00:28:17.049 different rhythmic sensibility. When you write 00:28:17.049 --> 00:28:19.490 a song for a rock band, you are usually locked 00:28:19.490 --> 00:28:21.910 tightly into a groove. The drummer drives the 00:28:21.910 --> 00:28:25.069 bus. It's usually 44 time. The goal is to keep 00:28:25.069 --> 00:28:26.990 the audience's heads bobbing. Right, keep the 00:28:26.990 --> 00:28:29.630 momentum forward. But when you write for ballet... 00:28:29.339 --> 00:28:32.859 You have to actively visualize human bodies moving 00:28:32.859 --> 00:28:36.000 through space. The music has to physically breathe 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.700 with the dancer's lungs. It has to have open 00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:41.339 space for physical expression. Dancers count 00:28:41.339 --> 00:28:44.579 music in a very specific, almost elastic way. 00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:47.259 The fact that Ellis can toggle so easily between 00:28:47.259 --> 00:28:50.519 the rigid metronomic drive of a pop song and 00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:53.279 the fluid expanding dynamics of a ballet score 00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:56.440 is a massive testament to his sheer versatility. 00:28:56.650 --> 00:28:58.470 He's also done a lot of work specifically with 00:28:58.470 --> 00:29:00.630 the harp. I'm seeing the name Lavinia Meijer 00:29:00.630 --> 00:29:03.190 pop up a lot in these source lists. Sweet for 00:29:03.190 --> 00:29:06.390 flute and harp, night loops. The harp is a fascinating 00:29:06.390 --> 00:29:09.170 instrument for a composer like him. It's incredibly 00:29:09.170 --> 00:29:12.009 resonant, it's highly textural, but it's also 00:29:12.009 --> 00:29:15.430 surprisingly rhythmic. It fits his painting with 00:29:15.430 --> 00:29:18.150 sound aesthetic absolutely perfectly. Yeah, it 00:29:18.150 --> 00:29:20.849 can do a lot. It can be sharply percussive, almost 00:29:20.849 --> 00:29:23.190 like an acoustic guitar, or it can be completely 00:29:23.190 --> 00:29:25.619 fluid, like water washing over the track. And 00:29:25.619 --> 00:29:28.079 he's not just composing his own stuff from scratch. 00:29:28.339 --> 00:29:30.740 He's also highly sought after as an arranger. 00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:33.339 He's doing work for other indie artists like 00:29:33.339 --> 00:29:36.240 Wild Pink on their critically acclaimed album, 00:29:36.380 --> 00:29:38.859 A Billion Little Lights, and for bands like Pure 00:29:38.859 --> 00:29:41.319 Bathing Culture. That is the ultimate mark of 00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:44.559 a musician's musician. When other established 00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:46.539 artists who are incredibly talented in their 00:29:46.539 --> 00:29:48.799 own right, when they need that extra layer of 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.619 texture, that harmonic complexity, that indescribable 00:29:51.619 --> 00:29:54.240 magic sauce they call Ellis. He's the guy you 00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.559 call when you want to make your standard indie 00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:59.059 rock album sound like it was recorded live inside 00:29:59.059 --> 00:30:00.900 a gothic cathedral. Or when you want to give 00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:03.920 a simple song immense cinematic weight. He essentially 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.079 brings the gravity to their projects. So we've 00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:09.640 established he's a sponge. He soaks up visual 00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:11.880 art from his parents, athletics from the court, 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:14.039 classical training from Yale, rock music from 00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:17.160 the garage. But who are the people he's actually 00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:20.059 listening to? Who's on Ellis Ludwig Leone's personal 00:30:20.059 --> 00:30:22.420 playlist? The list of influences provided in 00:30:22.420 --> 00:30:26.779 our source material is. Well, it's eclectic, 00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:30.099 to say the very least. It is a Venn diagram of 00:30:30.099 --> 00:30:33.490 genres that really shouldn't touch. but he forcibly 00:30:33.490 --> 00:30:35.910 overlaps them. Let's run through it. Sufjan Stevens 00:30:35.910 --> 00:30:38.630 is first. That one makes perfect logical sense. 00:30:39.170 --> 00:30:41.529 Sufjan is essentially the modern godfather of 00:30:41.529 --> 00:30:44.130 this kind of orchestral indie movement. Yeah. 00:30:44.130 --> 00:30:46.450 Massive arrangements, deeply emotional storytelling, 00:30:46.809 --> 00:30:49.390 a banjo playing right next to an oboe. If you 00:30:49.390 --> 00:30:51.690 like Sanfermin, you almost certainly have Sufjan's 00:30:51.690 --> 00:30:53.950 Illinois or Age of Ads in your record collection. 00:30:54.009 --> 00:30:56.029 The National is next on the list. Again, very 00:30:56.029 --> 00:30:58.470 logical. The National... Especially the work 00:30:58.470 --> 00:31:01.390 produced by the Dessner Brothers expertly bridges 00:31:01.390 --> 00:31:04.069 that indie rock and modern classical divide. 00:31:04.329 --> 00:31:06.569 Right. It's highly emotional. It's driving. And 00:31:06.569 --> 00:31:08.890 it features those iconic baritone vocals from 00:31:08.890 --> 00:31:11.349 Matt Berninger. You can draw a very direct straight 00:31:11.349 --> 00:31:15.089 line from them to Sanferman. But then we get 00:31:15.089 --> 00:31:17.410 to Miles Davis. And here's where it gets truly 00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:21.529 fascinating. Because why Miles Davis? Yeah, Sanferman 00:31:21.529 --> 00:31:24.230 does not sound anything like Kind of Blue. Not 00:31:24.230 --> 00:31:27.589 superficially, no. But think about Miles Davis's 00:31:27.589 --> 00:31:30.809 core approach to harmony. Think about his incredibly 00:31:30.809 --> 00:31:34.170 deliberate use of empty space. Think about the 00:31:34.170 --> 00:31:36.910 sheer complexity of his underlying chord structures. 00:31:37.390 --> 00:31:39.710 And most importantly, think about reinvention. 00:31:40.269 --> 00:31:42.349 Miles never stayed in one box for more than a 00:31:42.349 --> 00:31:44.970 few years. Exactly. He went from cool jazz to 00:31:44.970 --> 00:31:48.029 modal jazz to wild fusion to electric funk. He 00:31:48.029 --> 00:31:49.910 essentially burned the boxes every time he got 00:31:49.910 --> 00:31:52.990 comfortable. Ludwig Lyon likely admires that 00:31:52.990 --> 00:31:55.210 fearless, restless approach to musical structure 00:31:55.210 --> 00:31:57.829 and change, and the jazz concept that the silence 00:31:57.829 --> 00:32:00.109 between the notes is just as important as the 00:32:00.109 --> 00:32:02.029 notes themselves. That makes total sense. It's 00:32:02.029 --> 00:32:04.029 about adopting the attitude of the music, not 00:32:04.029 --> 00:32:06.349 just mimicking the sound. Okay, then we have 00:32:06.349 --> 00:32:08.410 the heavy classical hitters, Charles Ives and 00:32:08.410 --> 00:32:10.769 Benjamin Britten. Charles Ives is the great American 00:32:10.769 --> 00:32:13.230 experimentalist. He famously layered entirely 00:32:13.230 --> 00:32:15.390 different clashing songs on top of each other 00:32:15.390 --> 00:32:17.890 to create this wild cacophony and invent new 00:32:17.890 --> 00:32:21.190 textures. Like two marching bands crossing paths. 00:32:21.670 --> 00:32:24.829 Precisely. He captured the messy, chaotic sound 00:32:24.829 --> 00:32:28.190 of marching bands in town squares. Ludwig Lyon's 00:32:28.190 --> 00:32:30.710 work often feels like a modern digital interpretation 00:32:30.710 --> 00:32:33.410 of that layering pristine pop sounds with rigid 00:32:33.410 --> 00:32:35.670 classical structures to see what sparks fly. 00:32:36.049 --> 00:32:38.230 And Britten. Benjamin Britten was an absolute 00:32:38.230 --> 00:32:40.990 master of vocal writing and 20th century opera. 00:32:41.509 --> 00:32:43.569 He inherently knew how to write for the human 00:32:43.569 --> 00:32:46.190 voice in a way that was instantly dramatic and 00:32:46.190 --> 00:32:49.099 deeply theatrical. Given how intensely vocal 00:32:49.099 --> 00:32:51.819 heavy San Fermin is, with the constant male and 00:32:51.819 --> 00:32:54.660 female dynamic interplay, and considering Ellis's 00:32:54.660 --> 00:32:57.299 choral works, Britten is a very clear direct 00:32:57.299 --> 00:33:00.460 ancestor to his style. And finally on the list, 00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:03.420 Paul Simon. The quintessential American songwriter. 00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:05.400 Because you can have all the sweeping violins 00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:07.380 and harps in the world, but if the core song, 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:09.480 the underlying melody, the actual lyric, if that 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:11.839 isn't solid, the whole grand structure falls 00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:14.579 apart. Paul Simon is the absolute master of the 00:33:14.579 --> 00:33:16.680 foundational craft of songwriting. So if you 00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:19.259 put all these wildly different people in a blender 00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:22.680 Sufjan's raw emotion, Miles Davis's structural 00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:26.160 complexity, Ives's fearless experimentation, 00:33:26.980 --> 00:33:29.980 Britain's vocal drama, and Paul Simon's tight 00:33:29.980 --> 00:33:33.099 storytelling, you get Ellis Ludwig Lyon. He is 00:33:33.099 --> 00:33:35.000 standing right in the center of that impossible 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:37.460 Venn diagram. He takes the clear storytelling 00:33:37.460 --> 00:33:40.500 of Paul Simon, adds the dense texture of Britain, 00:33:40.940 --> 00:33:43.279 and drives the whole thing forward with the nerveth 00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:45.660 energy of the national. It's a pretty powerful 00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:48.019 cocktail. It really is. Yeah. And I think it 00:33:48.019 --> 00:33:51.299 perfectly explains why his career looks the chaotic, 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:53.259 beautiful way it does. He isn't trying to just 00:33:53.259 --> 00:33:55.980 be one of those things. He is actively synthesizing 00:33:55.980 --> 00:33:58.880 them all into something new. So as we wrap up 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:01.259 this deep dive, what does this all mean for us, 00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:03.720 for you listening? I think Ellis Ludwig Leone 00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:06.279 represents a very necessary modern archetype 00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:09.139 of the composer. For a very long time, culture 00:34:09.139 --> 00:34:11.860 told artists... to just pick a lane and stay 00:34:11.860 --> 00:34:14.099 in it. You are high art, or you are low art. 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:17.079 Exactly. You are classical, or you are pop. You 00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:19.380 play dive bars, or you play concert halls. He 00:34:19.380 --> 00:34:21.519 just said, no thanks, I'll do both. Exactly. 00:34:21.980 --> 00:34:25.239 He completely refuses to be siloed. He uses the 00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:27.519 complex tools of the orchestra to tell accessible 00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:30.980 pop stories. And he uses the raw energy of rock 00:34:30.980 --> 00:34:35.739 to invigorate stale classical forms. He proves... 00:34:36.289 --> 00:34:38.409 definitively, that you don't ever have to choose 00:34:38.409 --> 00:34:41.250 between intellectual complexity and emotional 00:34:41.250 --> 00:34:43.630 accessibility. That's really inspiring, honestly. 00:34:43.750 --> 00:34:45.690 Whether you're a working musician or just someone 00:34:45.690 --> 00:34:47.849 trying to figure out your own complicated career 00:34:47.849 --> 00:34:50.429 path, you don't have to choose between the basketball 00:34:50.429 --> 00:34:52.250 part of you and the piano part of you. You can 00:34:52.250 --> 00:34:54.550 integrate them. Integration is absolutely the 00:34:54.550 --> 00:34:57.429 key word. He integrates his influences, his rigorous 00:34:57.429 --> 00:35:00.110 training, and his disparate interests into one 00:35:00.110 --> 00:35:02.619 cohesive whole. I want to leave everyone listening 00:35:02.619 --> 00:35:04.900 with a final thought to chew on. We talked about 00:35:04.900 --> 00:35:07.639 that incredible title earlier, processional for 00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:10.820 a doomed wedding. Yes. We live in an era heavily 00:35:10.820 --> 00:35:13.880 dictated by algorithms, Spotify, Apple Music, 00:35:14.019 --> 00:35:16.800 YouTube. They all want to predict exactly what 00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:18.320 you like based on what you already clicked. They 00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:19.800 want you to be predictable. They want to play 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:21.960 you the exact same song over and over again, 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:23.800 just slightly different. They want to put you 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:26.480 in a neat little genre box so they can sell targeted 00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:29.800 ads to you. The algorithm absolutely hates ambiguity. 00:35:30.219 --> 00:35:33.070 Exactly. But artists like Ellis Ludwig Leone, 00:35:33.130 --> 00:35:35.309 they are the ambiguity. They are the glitch in 00:35:35.309 --> 00:35:37.869 the system. They are the surprise. So my question 00:35:37.869 --> 00:35:41.309 for you is this. In a world of sterile playlists 00:35:41.309 --> 00:35:43.869 that categorize everything by incredibly narrow 00:35:43.869 --> 00:35:47.289 genres, are artists like Ludwig Leone the only 00:35:47.289 --> 00:35:51.789 ones truly keeping the surprise, the doomed romance, 00:35:51.809 --> 00:35:54.769 if you will, of musical discovery alive? That 00:35:54.769 --> 00:35:57.130 is a brilliant question and definitely one worth 00:35:57.130 --> 00:35:59.440 pondering today. Go listen to How to Fake Your 00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:01.500 Death and then immediately chase it with a loud 00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:03.480 Sanfermin track. See if you can hear the hidden 00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:05.440 connection. Thanks for taking this deep dive 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.119 with us. Until next time. See ya.