So I want you to cast your mind back for a second.
It is April 26, 2009. Oh, wow. Going way back.
Yeah. I mean, the global economy is just an absolute
freefall from the financial crisis. Right. And
if you turned on the radio, the black eyed peas
are completely dominating the airwaves with boom
pow. I remember it well. Right. And on a Sunday
night on this channel that honestly was mostly
known for showing old Westerns and maybe some
classic movies, there was this show about a high
school chemistry teacher. And it is quietly just
sort of struggling to find its footing. We are
right in the middle of season two of Breaking
Bad. And context really is everything here. Because
in 2009, Breaking Bad was not the massive cultural
monolith that it is today. Not at all. It was
a critical darling, sure. And critics absolutely
loved it. But the viewership was modest. It was
a cult hit at best, really. Yeah, it was very
under the radar. Exactly. And totally. Up until
this specific point. The show was this gritty,
almost suffocatingly intense neo -Western. Suffocating
is a good word for it. It was beige. It was silent.
It was incredibly grim. It honestly felt a bit
like no country for old men, but adapted for
basic cable. You had these high stakes, very
low dialogue, and just lots of wind blowing through
the desert. Precisely. It was essentially a tragedy
playing out in Slam Ocean. And then right in
the eighth episode of the second season, the
writers Specifically, Peter Gould decided to
do something incredibly risky. They decided to
basically open a side door to this intense tragedy
and let a clown walk in. And that is the exact
moment the universe expands. So we are doing
a deep dive today into the episode titled, appropriately
enough, Better Call Saul. It's a fantastic title.
It really is. And our mission today for you listening
isn't just to recap the plot. You've seen the
show. You know what happens. Our mission here
is to investigate what I would call a creative
accident. A creative accident. Yeah, I'd argue
it is the most successful creative accident in
television history. We're going to look at how
a 47 minute episode of television, which was
written essentially just to solve a temporary
plot mechanics problem, ended up spawning a billion
dollar franchise. It really did recontextualize
the entire series. Exactly. It introduced a character
who was arguably never even meant to survive
the season. That is a very fair assessment. We
are of course talking about the introduction
of Saul Goodman. And looking at the production
notes you pulled for this deep dive, it is actually
fascinating to see that Vince Gilligan, the creator
and showrunner, wasn't even the primary architect
of this character. Right. This was really Peter
Gould's baby. And that distinction really matters,
doesn't it? Because Gilligan has this very specific
voice. It's suspenseful. It's dread inducing.
Very methodical. Yes, exactly. But Gould brought
a totally different flavor. If Gilligan is the
master of suspense, Gould is really the master
of satire. And when you drop a... a purely satirical
character into a suspense thriller, the chemical
reaction, yeah, pun intended there, it completely
changes the entire viscosity of the show. It
is like a splash of neon orange in a completely
beige world. It changes the entire color palette.
But before we get to the man himself, I think
we have to look at the catalyst. Yeah, why did
they even need a lawyer right at this moment?
Exactly. Why drop this flamboyant character into
episode eight of season two? Well, the plot engine
really starts with Badger. Good old Badger. He
gets busted sitting on a public bench that is,
ironically enough, advertising the very lawyer
who will eventually save him. The irony is incredibly
thick there. But let's break down the whole save
Badger problem structurally for a second. The
writers were backed into a corner. Walt and Jesse
are complete amateurs at this point. We tend
to forget this later in the series when they
become these untouchable kingpins, but right
now They're literally stumbling through the drug
trade using dumb luck and high school chemistry.
Yeah, they're barely scraping by. But getting
arrested, that is a systemic problem. You cannot
fulminate of mercury your way out of a holding
cell in the Albuquerque Police Department. Right.
They had hit a brick wall where their quote unquote
science just couldn't save them anymore. They
needed a direct interface with the legal system,
but they didn't go for some high powered law
and order type defense attorney. No, not at all.
They went straight for the strip mall and that
strip mall is honestly a character in itself.
Let's really break down that waiting room scene
because the set design tells us absolutely everything
we need to know about Saul before he even opens
his mouth. Oh, it is almost nauseating to look
at. You have these huge pillars which are very
clearly fake marble. Very fake. You have the
receptionist, Francesca, who just looks like
she would rather be literally anywhere else on
planet Earth. And then the wallpaper. The wallpaper
is the absolute key. It is a literal print of
the U .S. Constitution. But it's cheap, it's
peeling at the edges, and it's omnipresent. It's
efful. It basically screams, I wrap myself in
the law, but I absolutely do not respect it.
It treats the Constitution like a cheap commodity,
literally like wrapping paper. And sitting right
there in that waiting room, Walt is wearing his
disguises. The hat, the sunglasses. Yes, and
he just looks ridiculous. He looks exactly like
a cartoon criminal, like he's wearing a bugler
costume he bought at Party City on clearance.
Which is entirely the point. In Saul's world,
everyone is a caricature. And then Bob Odenkirk
actually walks in. Now, we really have to pause
on the casting here. This is crucial for you
to understand if you're listening. Bob Odenkirk
in 2009 was not a dramatic actor. No, absolutely
not. He was Mr. Show. He was a sketch comedy
legend. He was the guy you hired if you wanted
absurdist alternative comedy. Exactly. So casting
him was a massive signal to the audience. It
was telling them, hey, It's actually okay to
laugh. Because up until now, laughing at Breaking
Bad felt almost wrong. It felt too dark. Yeah,
way too heavy. But Odenkirk brings this incredible
rhythm, this fast -talking patter that feels
like it was lifted straight out of a 1940s screwball
comedy. He talks faster than literally anyone
else on the show. He moves faster, too. Yeah,
he occupies so much more space in the frame.
There is a very specific line when Walt tries
to bribe him that I want to highlight. Walt poses
as Badger's uncle, Mr. Mayhew. With the fake
cough. Yes, the cough. And he puts 10 grand in
cash right on the desk. He thinks this is just
how the criminal world works. You pay the bad
man, the bad man does the bad thing. And Saul
throws it right back at him. This is the first
moment of real genuine complexity for the character.
He says, I'm not taking a bribe to throw a case.
Which is confusing for Walt. We are told he is
a quote unquote criminal lawyer. The emphasis
being heavily on criminal. Why does he suddenly
have ethics? Right, where do the morals come
from? But it isn't ethics at all. It is risk
management. And that is the true insight into
Saul Goodman. He isn't an agent of chaos. He's
actually an agent of order. He knows that taking
a bribe from a complete stranger sitting in his
own office is a one -way ticket to disbarment
or a federal prison. He has a code. He has a
code. It is a very twisted code, but it is undeniably
there. He wants to manipulate the system by using
the system, not by breaking it entirely. He prefers
finding the loophole rather than swinging a sledgehammer.
So the bribe fails entirely. The nice way, or
at least the transactional way, doesn't work
out. So Walt and Jesse, being the absolute brilliant
strategists they are... Oh boy, here we go, the
escalation. Yeah, they decide to just escalate
straight to violence. They decide to kidnap him.
And this brings us to the desert. Moving into
section two of our deep dive. The desert scene.
I really want to spend a lot of time here because
honestly... We could probably spend the entire
hour talking about just this one five -minute
sequence. We really could. If you were looking
for the Rosetta Stone that connects Breaking
Bad to the prequel spin -off Better Call Saul,
it is literally buried right here in the sand.
So paint the picture for us. Set the scene. Well,
it is night. It is incredibly dark. The wind
is howling, which is a classic, classic Breaking
Bad soundscape choice. Walt and Jesse kidnap
Saul. They throw a black hood over his head,
and they drive him out to the middle of absolutely
nowhere in the RV. They step out, and they have
these cheap ski masks on. And there is a freshly
dug grave right there, or at least what looks
like one. And they threaten to kill him. They
just want to scare him into taking the bribe,
basically. It's a very crude tactic. Do what
we say, or else he go in the hole. Right. It's
very blunt. But look closely at Saul's reaction.
This is the absolute key to everything that follows.
He doesn't say, Please I'm just a lawyer or I'll
give you the money. He starts screaming something
very very specific He screams. It wasn't me.
It was Ignacio. It was Ignacio He shifts the
blame instantly without even thinking and Then
when Jesse who Saul does not recognize at all
because the ski mask when Jesse keeps the pressure
on him Saul asked the question that basically
launched thousand fan theories. Yes Lalo didn't
send you. Lalo didn't send you. And then just
to double down on his panic, he starts babbling
in Spanish about being amigo del cartel, a friend
of the cartel. Okay, we really need to unpack
this, because in 2009 when this originally aired
on television, those were just throwaway lines.
Right. Completely throwaway. Yeah. And this is
so important for people listening to understand
about how television writing actually works.
Peter Gould wrote those specific lines just to
add a little flavor. Just some texture. Exactly.
To show that Saul is a guy who has some genuinely
terrifying clients. The names Ignacio and Lalo
were basically just phones. They were just sounds.
They did not exist as fleshed out characters
in a show Bible anywhere. They were just texture
to make Saul look more entrenched in the underworld.
So for literally six years, those names just
floated out there in the ether. They meant absolutely
nothing to anyone. Exactly. But this is where
the absolute genius of the Breaking Bad and Better
Call Saul writer's room really comes into play.
They practice this technique they call mining
the history. Right. When they started writing
the prequel series years later, they didn't try
to invent a bunch of new antagonists from scratch.
They literally went back, looked at the old footage
of this exact episode, and asked themselves,
what questions did we leave unanswered? So they
looked at this desert scene and simply said,
well, who is Lalo? And the answer they eventually
came up with, Lalo Salamanca, turned out to be
perhaps the most charismatic, utterly terrifying
psychopath in the entire Breaking Bad universe.
They took a completely throwaway line of panic
and reverse engineered an entire six season tragedy
just to explain why he said it. It fundamentally
changes how you watch this scene now. It really
does. Because when I watched this back in 2009,
I just saw a sleazy lawyer who was scared of
some generic drug thug. But when I watch it now,
knowing exactly who Lalo Salamanca is, knowing
what he did to Howard Hamlin, knowing the immense
psychological torture he put Jimmy through the
terror in Bob Odenkirk's voice, it's entirely
different. Yeah. It isn't comic fear anymore.
It is quite literally PTSD. It becomes deeply
tragic. And then there's the Ignacio line. he
is throwing Nacho Varga completely under the
bus to save his own skin. Which is so heartbreaking
in retrospect, because in the prequel, we see
that Nacho actually sacrificed himself to save
Saul and to save others. Nacho was really one
of the very few people in that cartel world who
actually treated Jimmy with some base level of
respect. It just shows you that Saul's sheer
survival instinct will always override everything
else, even basic gratitude. But let's look at
the actual pivot point of this scene. Saul realizes,
looking at them, that Walt and Jesse are not
sent by Lalo. They're clearly confused by the
names. Right. He realizes they have absolutely
no idea who Lalo is. And you just have to watch
the physical body language shift here. This is
really Odenkirk's brilliance as a performer.
He goes from being this trembling, sobbing victim
to an annoyed, high -priced consultant in a literal
nanosecond. He brushes the dirt off his knees?
Yes. He stands up, brushes off his knees, completely
changes his posture. And he says, why didn't
you just say so? The relief. You can hear it
so clearly in his voice. Oh, thank God. You're
just the guys who want to save Badger. It shifts
from a cartel horror movie right back to a business
negotiation in a split second. And honestly,
this is Saul's real superpower. He reads the
room better than anyone. He looks at them and
realizes, OK, these guys are definitely dangerous.
They have a gun, but they are complete amateurs.
And amateurs with money always need a lawyer.
So he stands up, brushes off the dirt, and says,
OK. Put a dollar in my pocket the famous dollar
bill scene right attorney -client privilege Yeah,
it is basically a magic spell in his world he
takes that dollar and casts a legal shield over
the entire operation and Just like that with
one dollar. He is no longer their victim He is
their legal advisor. Which perfectly brings us
to the actual practical solution for the badger
problem. Because despite all this drama in the
desert, they still have to keep Badger out of
jail. Or at the very least they have to keep
him from snitching on Walt to the DEA. Right.
Which brings us to section three of our deep
dive. The in and out scheme. I absolutely love
this concept. Saul introduces them to a guy named
Jimmy and about Kilkelly. It is such a cynical
yet utterly brilliant piece of world building
by the writers. Kilkelly is a professional fall
guy. He literally makes a living by going to
state or federal prison for other criminals.
Wait, I have to ask. Is this a real thing? Do
professional fall guys actually exist in the
real world? Oh, absolutely. They do. Historically
speaking, especially if you look back at the
heyday of the American mafia in the 70s and 80s,
having a stand -in was a very known tactic. Maybe
it wasn't as formalized as a guy literally named
Jimmy in and out, but the general concept of
someone taking the rap In exchange for financial
care for their family, that is a staple of organized
crime. That's just a pure transaction. You are
literally buying their freedom. Exactly. And
Saul's execution of this plan is brilliant. He
doesn't just hire a guy. He creates a whole narrative.
He knows that the DEA really wants Heisenberg.
But the DEA doesn't actually know what Heisenberg
looks like yet. Right. He's just a ghost. So
Saul decides to just give them Heisenberg. He
dresses Kilkelly up, puts him on that specific
public bench, and fully orchestrates the bust.
It is entirely theatrical. Saul is essentially
directing a stage play for the police department.
And Kilkelly is totally happy to do it because
the pay is fantastic. And apparently, according
to Saul, he actually likes the prison environment
better than living in the outside world. But
there is a snag in the plan, a very bald, very
angry snag. Thanks, Schrader. Hank is sitting
in the surveillance van watching this entire
bust go down. The rest of the DEA guys are high
-fiving. They think they finally got their big
mastermind. But if you look at Dean Norris' face
in that scene... He is absolutely not buying
it. But why? I mean, the evidence is all there.
The guy is bald. He is sitting on the right bench.
He literally has the blue meth in his pocket.
Because it is too easy. And Hank's true superpower
as a character is his gut instinct. Throughout
the entire series, Hank is so often portrayed
as this loud, boisterous, borderline offensive
jock character. But beneath all of that, he is
actually an incredible detective. He really is.
He senses the performative nature of this drug
bust. He can't prove it legally, but his gut
knows this Kill Kelly guy fits the criminal profile
a little too perfectly. It is such a nice reminder
early in the show that Hank is actually a deeply
competent adversary for Walt. Saul might be capable
of outsmarting the legal system, but he isn't
necessarily outsmarting Hank's intuition. Precisely.
But legally speaking, the ruse holds up. So Badger
gets his sweet plea deal. He spills the beans
on this fake Heisenberg. Kilkelly goes off to
jail. And Walt and Jesse are safe. The crisis
is averted. But Saul is not quite done yet. No,
he is not. And this right here is the moment
that completely changes the trajectory of the
series. It goes from being a small story about
a desperate guy cooking meth to a massive story
about building a drug empire. Saul actually shows
up at Waltz High School. Which is a massive violation
of boundaries, by the way. Showing up uninvited
at a client's daytime place of work. At a high
school? That is an incredibly aggressive move.
And Walt is furious. He's standing in his classroom,
the lighting is drab, everything is gray, and
suddenly here comes Saul Goodman scrolling in
wearing this impossibly loud suit looking like
a walking neon sign. But Saul has a pitch ready.
He looks right at Walt and tells him, you are
too easy to find. He managed to find Walt in
just a couple of hours using a cheap private
investigator. And he points out the obvious logic.
If he could find Walt that easily, the cops can
definitely find Walt. And worse, the cartel can
find Walt. He's essentially telling Walt, you
are totally naked out here in the wild. You need
some armor. Exactly. So he offers to be Walt's
full -time legal counsel. But it's much more
than that. He offers to be a conciliar. He offers
to be a full -on advisor in, quote, covering
his tracks. This is a huge shift because before
this exact conversation, Walt is just a guy making
really pure drugs in a camper van. After this
conversation, he suddenly has access to a criminal
infrastructure. Saul brings the money laundering
techniques. He brings the connections to pest
control companies for a legitimate cover. He
brings the guys who know guys. Saul is the ultimate
enabler that allows the Heisenberg persona to
grow from a local nuisance to an international
kingpin. It is so fascinating to me that Saul
is the one actively courting Walt here. Usually,
in these types of stories, the criminal has to
seek out the shady lawyer and beg for help. But
here the lawyer is aggressively chasing down
the criminal. Because Saul sees the massive financial
potential. He sees the absolute purity and quality
of Walt's product. He literally tells Walt, the
world is your oyster. It builds down to sheer
greed. Saul Goodman is at his absolute core,
an opportunist. He looks at Walter White and
he doesn't see a man dying of cancer. He sees
a winning lottery ticket that just needs a little
help getting cashed. So while all of this incredibly
high stakes criminal maneuvering is happening
in the foreground, there is a very grounded.
human element playing out in the background of
this episode. The subplots here are actually
quite heavy. They are very heavy and they provide
the absolute necessary emotional counterweight
to all the fast -talking comedy of Saul Goodman.
This brings us to section four of our deep dive,
the human element. We really have to talk about
Hank again here. We mentioned his sharp suspicion
during the bust, but emotionally speaking, he
is in a very, very dark place in this episode.
He is deeply traumatized. He is suffering from
the severe psychological fallout of the shootout
in previous episodes. Right. You know, the horrific
incident down in Juarez, the exploding tortoise
on the cartel informant. He has completely holed
himself up in his bedroom. He's brewing and bottling
his own Schrader bro beer in the garage But mostly
he is just hiding from the world He is having
severe crippling panic attacks and Walt who ironically
is the indirect root cause of so much of this
cartel chaos Wall actually steps in here to act
as the supportive brother -in -law. He sits down
and gives Hank a pep talk It is a incredibly
complex scene to watch right Walt sits on the
edge of the bed with Hank and starts talking
about his own fear or more accurately, his total
lack of it. Yeah, he says he's had quote unquote
no fear ever since his terminal lung cancer diagnosis.
Since I got the news, I sleep like a baby. It
is a chilling line delivery by Bryan Cranston,
because on one hand, you can see he's genuinely
trying to comfort Hank. He is trying to say,
look, the fear of the unknown is the worst part.
You just have to kick it away. But on the other
hand, it reveals Walt's rapidly growing nihilism.
He is telling Hank that facing his own death
didn't make him value life more. It actually
made him value consequences a lot less. But the
wild thing is, it actually helps Hank, doesn't
it? It does help him. It gives him just enough
mental fortitude to finally leave the house and
go back to work. Now the panic attacks aren't
magically and fully cured. It's really just a
temporary band -aid. But it highlights that incredibly
strange dichotomy in Walter White. He can be
a ruthless, calculating drug lord in one scene,
and a genuinely supportive family member in the
next, often using the exact same twisted philosophical
logic for both situations. Meanwhile, Jesse is
dealing with his own emotional arc in this episode.
He's getting much closer to his landlord, Jane.
Jane Margolis, played so wonderfully by Kristen
Ritter. They actually sleep together for the
first time in this episode. It's a very sweet,
tender moment, actually. It is. They start bonding
over art, over drawing superheroes. It feels
very innocent compared to the rest of the show.
Yeah. But there is a key character detail revealed
here that is going to become unspeakably tragic
later on. Jesse learns that Jane is in recovery
for addiction. She tells me she's been 18 months
sober. Right. And here is Jesse Pinkman, who
is actively manufacturing and dealing crystal
meth, using recreational drugs constantly, living
this incredibly dangerous, chaotic lifestyle.
And he is falling deeply in love with a girl
whose very survival depends entirely on stability
and strict sobriety. It is an absolute ticking
time bomb of a relationship. It is the dictionary
definition of a doomed romance. As a viewer,
you desperately want to root for them because
their chemistry is so great and they both seem
so lonely. But, you know, logically, this dynamic
absolutely cannot end well for either of them.
And finally, we have Skyler's subplot. Right.
Skyler is going back to the workforce. She has
taken that job with her old boss, Ted Benickety.
And there is this very small very painful visual
detail that Walt notices on a Saturday morning.
He's dressing up for work. She's spending extra
time putting on makeup. She's dressing significantly
nicer than she usually does just to go into an
office on a weekend. And Walt notices it immediately.
He actually comments on it. He does notice. And
the dead silence that hangs in the room after
he notices speaks absolute volumes. The underlying
implication is so clear. There's a massive growing
distance between them. Skyler is actively building
a completely separate life outside of the home,
completely outside of Walt's control. And while
Walt is out secretly building his massive criminal
empire with Saul Goodman, his actual home life
is just quietly inevitably drifting away from
him. It's such a stark contrast. Walt is rapidly
gaining all this power and agency in the dangerous
criminal underworld. But he is completely losing
his power and connection within his own marriage.
That really is the central driving tragedy of
the entire show, isn't it? The higher that Heisenberg
rises, the more that Walter White simply fades
away. So we have this incredibly against crime
plot, we have these deeply emotional character
beats with Hank and Skyler and Jane, and we have
the introduction of an absolute franchise icon
all packed into 47 minutes. It is a lot for one
single hour of television to handle. Let's look
at how the world actually received it when it
aired. Moving into section five. reception, and
legacy. The reception was huge. Donna Bowman
from the A .V. Club, who really wrote the definitive
must -read weekly recaps of this show back in
the day, she gave this episode a straight A grade.
An A grade. That is extremely high praise for
what is essentially a mid -season world -building
episode. It really is. She specifically praised
the rapidly evolving role of Jesse and Walt within
the Albuquerque drug world. She recognized immediately
that this wasn't just a funny, quirky episode.
It was a massive, structural leap forward for
the narrative. It fundamentally changed the rules
of engagement for the characters. And looking
back at it years later, the historical rankings
really hold up. In 2019, The Ringer ranked it
the 12th best episode out of all 62 episodes
of the series. That is incredibly high placement
when you consider that you're putting it up against
absolute powerhouse episodes like Ozymandias
or Face Off or Crawl Space. Strength number 12
is Elite Status. It beats out some of the most
explosive, action -backed season finales. Vulture
also had it ranked at 25th overall, which is
still very, very respectable. Absolutely. And
we really cannot talk about the overall vibe
and legacy of this episode without mentioning
the music. The music choices in Breaking Bad
are always so intentional and atmospheric. Always.
Every track has a purpose. We had a Halle Hay
by Fari's movement playing faintly in the background
of the club scene, which perfectly grounds the
show in that specific 2009 cultural era. We had
thin m - and Skank by the Lions. And of course,
Bandarilla by Colexico. Oh, that Colexico track
is the absolute MVP of the episode. It plays
during that tense desert kidnapping sequence.
It gives the whole scene that distinctive southwestern,
dusty noir feeling. It has that unique mariachi
meets surf rock vibe that just screams border
town trouble. It creates a vivid sense of place
that is honestly just as important as the dialogue
itself. So as we start to wrap up this deep dive,
let's try to synthesize all of this information.
What is the final verdict here? Why does this
specific hour of television matter so much in
the grand scheme of things? It matters deeply
because it is the ultimate bridge. Before Better
Call saw the episode, not the spinoff, Breaking
Bad was fundamentally a small story about a desperate
dying man and his former high school student
secretly cooking meth in a beat -up RV. It was
small, it was intimate, it was geographically
contained. And after this episode... After this,
it becomes a sprawling saga. Sol Goodman is the
conduit that brings the entire underworld to
their doorstep. He brings the cartel connections,
the sophisticated money laundering, the international
shipping routes, the professional hitmen. But
even more than that, structural stuff, this episode
miraculously introduced a character who was originally
designed just to be comic relief. Literally a
guy in a loud suit making sleazy jokes and made
him complex and compelling enough to eventually
carry his own profound Shakespearean tragedy
in a prequel series. It is the ultimate Lalo
and Ignacio seed. Exactly. That tiny little narrative
seed, which was just blindly planted in the desert
sand in 2009, grew into a massive interconnected
forest. It proves that even in the seemingly
throwaway panicked moments, this show was diligently
building a massive mythology. It is a show that
heavily rewards the viewer for paying close attention.
Which perfectly brings us to our final provocative
thought for the day. For all of you listening
right now. Right. Think back to that terrifying
moment in the desert one more time. Saul is on
his knees, staring into what he thinks is his
own grave. He begs for his life. And what does
he scream? He screams, I am a friend of the cartel.
Amigo Del Cartel. He genuinely thinks that title
is his ultimate shield. He thinks dropping that
name makes him untouchable to these random thugs.
Right. He thinks it is his ultimate safety net.
But if you look at the long term trajectory of
Walt, of Jesse, and eventually of Saul himself
across both series, is being a quote unquote
friend of the cartel actually safety? Or is it,
in reality, the most dangerous exposed position
of all? Because once you establish yourself as
a friend, you are officially in the game. And
once you are in the game, there is no getting
out. You are really just biding your time, waiting
for your own turn to be taken out to the desert.
That is a deeply terrifying, completely sobering
thought to leave on. But that is the brutal reality
of the Breaking Bad universe. Thank you so much
for joining us today on this deep dive into the
explosive arrival of the one and only Saul Goodman.
We will catch you on the next deep dive.