WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.940 Welcome to the debate. Today, we're turning our 00:00:02.940 --> 00:00:05.820 attention to, well, a massive and often sort 00:00:05.820 --> 00:00:08.419 of invisible engine within the academic world. 00:00:08.580 --> 00:00:11.880 We're talking about continuing education. Now, 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.359 in the United States and Canada, this isn't just 00:00:14.359 --> 00:00:17.000 about, you know, a hobbyist pottery class. We're 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:19.500 talking about the whole ecosystem of learning 00:00:19.500 --> 00:00:22.519 that happens after your initial schooling. It's 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.839 workforce training, executive certificates, even 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:28.399 degree credit courses for nontraditional students. 00:00:28.660 --> 00:00:31.719 It is a multibillion -dollar sector. It really 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:34.780 is. It's ubiquitous, but it's also sitting right 00:00:34.780 --> 00:00:38.619 in the middle of a massive identity crisis. And 00:00:38.619 --> 00:00:40.719 I think the central question we're wrestling 00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:44.079 with today is really about structure versus soul. 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:47.679 The core tension is this. Should continuing education 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:50.420 be fully integrated into the life and faculty 00:00:50.420 --> 00:00:52.560 of a university to make sure it maintains academic 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:56.700 rigor? Or does it function best as a distinct, 00:00:56.859 --> 00:01:00.560 flexible extension, a separate arm designed to 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:03.159 be responsive to the market? And the stakes are 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:05.620 incredibly high here. The World Bank noted back 00:01:05.620 --> 00:01:08.299 in 2019 that flexible learning is absolutely 00:01:08.299 --> 00:01:10.959 vital for labor markets adjusting to the, quote, 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:14.040 future of work. But my argument is that because 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:17.040 this is so vital, we can't afford to sideline 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:19.280 it. I'm here to argue that continuing education 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:22.000 has to be brought into the institutional fold, 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:24.719 fully integrated, to stop it from becoming a 00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:27.599 second -tier operation. It needs to feed into 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:30.719 and benefit from the mainstream. And I come at 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:33.879 this from a completely different angle. I believe 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:37.239 that the extension school model, where the division 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:39.700 is separate and distinct from the main faculty, 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:42.920 is not only historically valid, but frankly, 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:46.719 absolutely necessary. If you shackle these programs 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:49.519 to the slow -moving machinery of a traditional 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:52.640 university, you kill the very responsiveness 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:55.819 that working adults need. You need a speedboat, 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.040 not an ocean liner. I see the utility in the 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:01.159 speedboat analogy, but I do worry about what 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:04.079 happens to the cargo. So let's lay out the positions. 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:07.319 To me, for continuing education to be given, 00:02:07.420 --> 00:02:10.710 you know, due recognition, It just can't be treated 00:02:10.710 --> 00:02:13.310 as a side hustle. And I'm leaning heavily here 00:02:13.310 --> 00:02:15.830 on the argument from the Organization for Economic 00:02:15.830 --> 00:02:19.389 Cooperation and Development, the OECD. They argued 00:02:19.389 --> 00:02:21.330 that it should be, and I'm quoting here, fully 00:02:21.330 --> 00:02:24.229 integrated into institutional life rather than 00:02:24.229 --> 00:02:26.710 being often regarded as a separate and distinctive 00:02:26.710 --> 00:02:30.270 operation employing different staff. That sounds, 00:02:30.469 --> 00:02:33.990 I don't know, a very idealized, almost bureaucratic 00:02:33.990 --> 00:02:36.750 way of looking at it. I'd call it a principled 00:02:36.750 --> 00:02:39.800 way. The OECD's point is that integration is 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:41.840 the only way for these programs to actually feed 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:44.819 into mainstream academic life. When universities 00:02:44.819 --> 00:02:47.479 treat this as a separate silo, it inevitably 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:50.360 becomes a cash cow. It's a revenue tool to support 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:52.659 the real academic enterprise without the full 00:02:52.659 --> 00:02:55.120 oversight of the core faculty. And that creates 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:57.719 a caste system. You've got real degrees and then 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:00.060 you have continuing studies. If we want to honor 00:03:00.060 --> 00:03:02.060 the learner, we have to offer them the full weight 00:03:02.060 --> 00:03:04.159 of the institution, not some franchise operation. 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:07.319 I'm sorry, I just don't buy that. Let me tell 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:10.300 you why. The non -traditional student, we're 00:03:10.300 --> 00:03:12.699 talking about the working parent, the mid -career 00:03:12.699 --> 00:03:15.280 professional, they require a non -traditional 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:18.240 structure. You talk about the weight of the institution, 00:03:18.460 --> 00:03:21.740 but sometimes that weight is just dead weight. 00:03:22.169 --> 00:03:24.750 I mean, look at Georgetown University, Michigan 00:03:24.750 --> 00:03:27.710 State, the University of Denver. They have all 00:03:27.710 --> 00:03:30.770 explicitly used non -credit programs to build 00:03:30.770 --> 00:03:32.889 partnerships with corporations and government 00:03:32.889 --> 00:03:36.430 agencies. That requires a level of agility that, 00:03:36.509 --> 00:03:39.150 I don't know, a traditional anthropology department 00:03:39.150 --> 00:03:41.990 just doesn't have. But are those partnerships 00:03:41.990 --> 00:03:46.210 academic or are they just transactional? That's 00:03:46.210 --> 00:03:48.729 the real question. They're responsive and they 00:03:48.729 --> 00:03:51.030 provide access. Look, look at the University 00:03:51.030 --> 00:03:54.560 of Florida. In 1976, they created a specific 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:57.979 Division of Continuing Education. Why? Because 00:03:57.979 --> 00:04:00.479 they had to offer courses on evenings and weekends. 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.460 Traditional departments, they often resist those 00:04:03.460 --> 00:04:06.000 hours. They want to teach at 10 a .m. on a Tuesday. 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:09.159 A separate division has a distinct mission. I 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:10.860 mean, think about the Chautauqua Institution, 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:15.439 founded way back in 1874. It started as an educational 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.740 experiment in out -of -school vacation learning. 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:21.740 It succeeded because it wasn't trying to be a 00:04:21.740 --> 00:04:24.560 traditional university. Separation allows for 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:26.860 that. That is an interesting point, though. I 00:04:26.860 --> 00:04:29.120 would frame it differently. You bring up history, 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:31.439 and I think looking at the origins of these programs 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:33.860 actually strengthens the argument for integration, 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:37.839 for institutional dignity, not separation. How 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:40.259 so? I mean, the history of extension is literally 00:04:40.259 --> 00:04:42.920 the history of extending out away from the center. 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.220 Not always. If we look at the British models, 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.100 which really set a global standard for prestige, 00:04:49.459 --> 00:04:53.100 we see a deep institutional commitment. Oxford 00:04:53.100 --> 00:04:55.839 University established its Department for Continuing 00:04:55.839 --> 00:05:01.279 Education in 1878. Cambridge's goes back to 1873. 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:04.860 These weren't some rogue operations. They were 00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:07.139 attempts to bring the rigor of Oxford and Cambridge 00:05:07.139 --> 00:05:10.399 to a broader public. They were integrated into 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:12.920 the identity of the place. Okay, but they were 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:15.220 still distinct departments. Departments, yes, 00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:18.000 but within the university. And let's look at 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:21.040 the American context, specifically Cornell. In 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.439 the 1870s, they began offering university -based 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:28.399 continuing education. The Cornell era from 1877 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:31.699 mentions a tour of the Great Lakes. Now, this 00:05:31.699 --> 00:05:33.819 wasn't some travel agency run by an administrator. 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:36.639 It was under the direction of Professor Theodore 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:38.980 Comstock, the head of Cornell's Department of 00:05:38.980 --> 00:05:42.519 Geology. That is the integration model. The subject 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:45.139 matter expert, the core faculty, is leading the 00:05:45.139 --> 00:05:47.240 charge. When you separate the administration 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:49.959 from the faculty, you lose that direct line. 00:05:50.139 --> 00:05:53.139 You get a facilitator instead of a scholar. That's 00:05:53.139 --> 00:05:55.800 a compelling case. But have you considered the 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:58.019 counter -history right there in the Ivy League? 00:05:58.259 --> 00:06:01.180 Look at Harvard. Their origins in this go back 00:06:01.180 --> 00:06:05.139 to 1835 with the Lowell Institute. It had a specific 00:06:05.139 --> 00:06:09.470 mission, free public lectures in Boston. It wasn't 00:06:09.470 --> 00:06:11.410 about getting students onto the Harvard campus. 00:06:11.670 --> 00:06:14.170 It was about getting knowledge out to the city. 00:06:14.410 --> 00:06:17.870 But eventually Harvard did take it over. Exactly. 00:06:18.050 --> 00:06:22.290 But look at how they took it over. In 1910, President 00:06:22.290 --> 00:06:25.670 A. Lawrence Lowell, who was also a trustee of 00:06:25.670 --> 00:06:28.389 the Institute, formally established the Harvard 00:06:28.389 --> 00:06:31.550 Extension School. And it has operated continuously 00:06:31.550 --> 00:06:36.269 since 1910, precisely because it had that specific 00:06:36.269 --> 00:06:39.839 distinct commission. Yes, it's one of Harvard's 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:42.339 degree -granting schools, but it functions with 00:06:42.339 --> 00:06:44.959 an autonomy that allows it to serve a completely 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:48.040 different demographic than Harvard College. If 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:50.459 Lowell had tried to force those lectures into 00:06:50.459 --> 00:06:52.879 the standard undergraduate curriculum of 1910, 00:06:53.060 --> 00:06:56.079 the faculty would have strangled it in the crib. 00:06:56.699 --> 00:06:59.459 Separation was the shield that let it survive. 00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:02.980 I'm not convinced because that assumes the standard 00:07:02.980 --> 00:07:06.240 curriculum is incapable of evolving. And if we 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:08.620 keep treating adult learners as this group that 00:07:08.620 --> 00:07:10.899 needs to be shielded from the core standards, 00:07:11.139 --> 00:07:14.360 we risk patronizing them. And this brings me 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.420 to a modern issue with this separation that I 00:07:16.420 --> 00:07:20.079 find, well, deeply troubling. The metrics we 00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:24.459 use. Specifically, the rise of the CEU, the Continuing 00:07:24.459 --> 00:07:27.300 Education Unit. Now we're getting into the weeds, 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:29.759 but this is important. What's your objection 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:33.430 to the CEU? It's a standard measure. It's a standard 00:07:33.430 --> 00:07:36.329 of time, not intellect. The standard from the 00:07:36.329 --> 00:07:38.949 International Association for Continuing Education 00:07:38.949 --> 00:07:42.230 and Training is that 10 contact hours equals 00:07:42.230 --> 00:07:46.069 one CEU. It is purely a measure of time served. 00:07:46.269 --> 00:07:49.110 It documents you attended a seminar. Compare 00:07:49.110 --> 00:07:51.509 that to a traditional degree where you're graded 00:07:51.509 --> 00:07:55.129 on synthesis, on argument, on research. The CEU, 00:07:55.149 --> 00:07:57.610 it just commodifies learning into these neat 00:07:57.610 --> 00:08:00.490 little time blocks. It turns education into a 00:08:00.490 --> 00:08:02.810 punch card system. This is what happens when 00:08:02.810 --> 00:08:05.089 you separate continuing ed from the academic 00:08:05.089 --> 00:08:07.589 core. You get administrative metrics instead 00:08:07.589 --> 00:08:10.170 of academic ones. I just, I see it so differently. 00:08:10.589 --> 00:08:15.410 I view the CEU not as a punch card. but as a 00:08:15.410 --> 00:08:18.670 vital currency for professional safety and competence. 00:08:18.970 --> 00:08:21.610 You're looking at this like a philosopher. I'm 00:08:21.610 --> 00:08:24.290 looking at it like a patient. Licensing bodies 00:08:24.290 --> 00:08:26.410 in fields like healthcare and teaching, they 00:08:26.410 --> 00:08:28.990 impose these requirements for a reason. They 00:08:28.990 --> 00:08:31.730 need a quantifiable way to ensure that a nurse 00:08:31.730 --> 00:08:35.049 or a psychologist stays up to date. But does 00:08:35.049 --> 00:08:37.730 sitting in a chair for 10 hours guarantee they're 00:08:37.730 --> 00:08:40.649 up to date? It guarantees exposure to new developments, 00:08:40.870 --> 00:08:43.799 which is more than no requirement at all. Look 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:46.399 at the American Psychological Association. They 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:49.139 accredit sponsors and use a CE credit system. 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:51.679 If a psychologist needs to learn about a new 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:54.700 treatment for PTSD, they can't wait for a university 00:08:54.700 --> 00:08:56.919 to approve a new three -credit graduate seminar 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:00.139 that meets for 16 weeks. That credit hour system 00:09:00.139 --> 00:09:04.279 is just too slow, too cumbersome. The CEU and 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:06.399 the structures that deliver it allow for the 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:08.659 rapid deployment of knowledge. We're talking 00:09:08.659 --> 00:09:11.080 about professional development, not a dissertation. 00:09:11.539 --> 00:09:14.409 I grant you the speed. But when we prioritize 00:09:14.409 --> 00:09:17.769 speed and contact hours over rigorous assessment, 00:09:18.070 --> 00:09:20.809 we risk creating a system where professionals 00:09:20.809 --> 00:09:24.230 are just checking boxes, not genuinely engaging. 00:09:24.389 --> 00:09:26.909 And this connects directly to the economic reality. 00:09:27.309 --> 00:09:29.970 You argued earlier that separation allows for 00:09:29.970 --> 00:09:32.529 market responsiveness. But the evidence suggests 00:09:32.529 --> 00:09:35.149 that market dependence can actually backfire 00:09:35.149 --> 00:09:37.789 on the students we're trying to help. Backfire. 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:40.779 How so? Well, consider the Edutenture study from 00:09:40.779 --> 00:09:43.899 the spring of 2009. This was right in the teeth 00:09:43.899 --> 00:09:46.179 of the Great Recession. They surveyed about 1 00:09:46.179 --> 00:09:49.100 ,500 adults, and nearly half of them believed 00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:51.639 the value of education had risen because of the 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:53.899 recession. They knew they needed new skills, 00:09:54.100 --> 00:09:57.279 but over two -thirds said the economy had negatively 00:09:57.279 --> 00:09:59.659 affected their plans to actually enroll. Right, 00:09:59.700 --> 00:10:02.620 because they couldn't afford it. Precisely. When 00:10:02.620 --> 00:10:05.940 continuing education is a separate, revenue -dependent 00:10:05.940 --> 00:10:09.159 extension school, It has to charge what the market 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:12.980 will bear. It has to pay its own way. In a downturn, 00:10:13.100 --> 00:10:15.419 exactly when people need retraining the most, 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:18.539 the price becomes a barrier. If these programs 00:10:18.539 --> 00:10:21.200 were fully integrated, subsidized by the endowment, 00:10:21.340 --> 00:10:23.820 by the broader university budget, just like the 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:26.259 history department is, the university could afford 00:10:26.259 --> 00:10:28.919 to support these learners. By separating them, 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:32.059 we leave them to the mercy of the market. That's 00:10:32.059 --> 00:10:34.679 a noble thought, but I think it misreads the 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:39.869 structural agility you need to solve the You 00:10:39.869 --> 00:10:42.029 mentioned the World Bank. Let's look at their 00:10:42.029 --> 00:10:45.649 2019 report. They explicitly say retraining and 00:10:45.649 --> 00:10:48.970 retooling are the priority. That requires a scale 00:10:48.970 --> 00:10:51.509 and a type of teaching that traditional universities 00:10:51.509 --> 00:10:54.389 are, frankly, bad at. You think the university 00:10:54.389 --> 00:10:57.250 is incapable of retraining? I think it's ill 00:10:57.250 --> 00:11:00.070 -suited for it. Look at Empire State College, 00:11:00.330 --> 00:11:04.220 part of SUNY. It was founded in 1969. the first 00:11:04.220 --> 00:11:06.919 institution in the U .S. to focus exclusively 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:10.019 on adult learners. The whole institution was 00:11:10.019 --> 00:11:12.559 built for this purpose because they didn't have 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:14.919 to deal with the traditional undergraduate machinery. 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:19.299 Dorms, sports teams, rigid semesters, they could 00:11:19.299 --> 00:11:22.679 innovate. But Empire State College is the institution. 00:11:22.980 --> 00:11:25.639 It's a degree -granting institution within a 00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:28.100 system. That's different from a university treating 00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:30.940 its continuing ed division as some kind of cash 00:11:30.940 --> 00:11:33.240 -generating appendage. The principle stands, 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:36.639 though. Specialized structures serve specialized 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:39.860 needs. The World Bank is talking about flexible 00:11:39.860 --> 00:11:43.740 learning, short courses, online modules, competency 00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:46.600 -based learning. If you try to run those through 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:48.740 the same faculty committees that oversee the 00:11:48.740 --> 00:11:51.460 classics PhD, you will never get them approved 00:11:51.460 --> 00:11:54.519 in time to be relevant. The mainstream programs 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:57.740 the OECD talks about are often years behind industry. 00:11:58.019 --> 00:12:00.860 I see why you'd think that. But I worry that 00:12:00.860 --> 00:12:03.600 without that oversight, retraining just becomes 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:07.080 vocational rather than intellectual. If we sever 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:09.600 the link between the job skill and the deeper 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:12.240 theoretical framework, which is what the core 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.820 faculty provides, we're training technicians, 00:12:15.059 --> 00:12:18.299 not citizens. The university's role is not just 00:12:18.299 --> 00:12:20.659 to update software skills, it's to cultivate 00:12:20.659 --> 00:12:24.120 the mind. If continuing ed is just a skills factory, 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:26.879 it doesn't belong in a university at all. It 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:29.379 belongs in a corporate training center. And I'd 00:12:29.379 --> 00:12:31.840 argue that intellectual charity means seeing 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:34.779 that vocational training is intellectual for 00:12:34.779 --> 00:12:38.100 the person whose livelihood depends on it. We 00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:40.299 shouldn't look down on it. But we're reaching 00:12:40.299 --> 00:12:42.259 the end of our time, and the divide is still 00:12:42.259 --> 00:12:46.250 clear. It is. So let me just summarize my position. 00:12:46.509 --> 00:12:49.190 I believe the soul of lifelong learning must 00:12:49.190 --> 00:12:52.070 reside in the heart of the university, not in 00:12:52.070 --> 00:12:56.009 an annex. The OACD is correct. It must not be 00:12:56.009 --> 00:12:58.029 a separate and distinctive operation if it's 00:12:58.029 --> 00:13:00.730 going to be respected. The university's greatest 00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:04.730 asset is its faculty. excluding adult learners 00:13:04.730 --> 00:13:07.269 from that core life, offering them a separate 00:13:07.269 --> 00:13:10.210 menu of contact hours instead of deep engagement, 00:13:10.389 --> 00:13:13.309 it serves neither the student nor the institution. 00:13:13.750 --> 00:13:16.710 It dilutes the brand. And I still maintain that 00:13:16.710 --> 00:13:19.269 the best ideas and the best service to the public 00:13:19.269 --> 00:13:23.029 come from structures built for purpose. The whole 00:13:23.029 --> 00:13:26.769 Wisconsin idea from 1907 was driven by extension, 00:13:26.990 --> 00:13:30.159 by going out. Whether it's Chautauqua's vacation 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.480 learning or modern online education, the distinct 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.360 nature of adult learning requires a dedicated, 00:13:36.580 --> 00:13:39.440 specialized delivery system, a system that can 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:42.019 move faster than an academic senate and offer 00:13:42.019 --> 00:13:44.580 the flexibility a working nurse or a parent actually 00:13:44.580 --> 00:13:47.899 needs. It is worth noting, though, that as distance 00:13:47.899 --> 00:13:50.620 and online education really come to dominate, 00:13:50.860 --> 00:13:54.679 the physical distinction between campus and extension 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:58.659 is... Well, it's blurring. That is true. The 00:13:58.659 --> 00:14:02.179 method of delivery, video, online modules, that's 00:14:02.179 --> 00:14:04.240 becoming the norm for everyone, not just the 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:07.100 non -traditional student. So perhaps in the future, 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.120 the integration I'm looking for and the flexibility 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:13.720 you champion will merge, simply because the walls 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:15.879 of the classroom are dissolving. A hopeful thought. 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.740 Whether it's integrated or separate, the core 00:14:18.740 --> 00:14:21.559 goal remains the same, accommodating the student 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:23.980 in the world where education no longer ends at 00:14:23.980 --> 00:14:27.110 graduation. Indeed. Thank you for joining us 00:14:27.110 --> 00:14:29.169 for this discussion on the structure of knowledge.