WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.980 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Okay, I want to 00:00:02.980 --> 00:00:05.459 start today with a little cognitive dissonance 00:00:05.459 --> 00:00:07.820 test for you. You ready? I'm always ready. Go 00:00:07.820 --> 00:00:10.080 for it. All right. Picture the Sunset Strip, 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:13.919 maybe. 1989. You've got the neon, the spandex, 00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:17.000 the hairspray fumes literally punching a hole 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.239 in the ozone layer. Okay, on there. You're visualizing 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:22.699 a band from that time. What's the music you're 00:00:22.699 --> 00:00:25.289 hearing in your head? Oh, well, if we're going 00:00:25.289 --> 00:00:27.370 by the stereotype, it's probably three chords, 00:00:27.570 --> 00:00:30.789 a lot of shouting about girls or parties, and 00:00:30.789 --> 00:00:32.869 maybe a guitar solo that just goes on for way 00:00:32.869 --> 00:00:35.049 too long. Right. You know, style over substance, 00:00:35.250 --> 00:00:38.570 usually. Yeah, exactly. But today, we're looking 00:00:38.570 --> 00:00:40.869 at a case study that just completely shatters 00:00:40.869 --> 00:00:43.609 that mold. We're talking about a guy who, I mean, 00:00:43.630 --> 00:00:45.850 he had the look for sure. The giant blonde hair, 00:00:45.950 --> 00:00:47.929 the peace signs, the cool glasses. Well, he definitely 00:00:47.929 --> 00:00:50.770 had the look. But musically, he was writing songs 00:00:50.770 --> 00:00:53.189 that honestly had more in common with, like, 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:55.600 John Lennon or Elvis Costello than they did with 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:58.439 Poison. It is one of the most interesting mismatches 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:01.399 in rock history. We are talking about Donny Vi. 00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:05.379 Born Donald Edwin Vandefel. And the mission for 00:01:05.379 --> 00:01:08.620 this deep dive is pretty specific. This isn't 00:01:08.620 --> 00:01:10.980 just a where are they now kind of thing. No, 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:13.140 this is more of a survival story, really. It 00:01:13.140 --> 00:01:15.739 is. We're going to look at how you go from being 00:01:15.739 --> 00:01:20.760 this MTV darling on a major label. Like ATCO. 00:01:20.819 --> 00:01:23.900 A huge label. To a cult hero in Japan, and then 00:01:23.900 --> 00:01:26.500 eventually to distributing your life's work on 00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:28.840 a USB drive. And that transition right there 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:31.519 from the massive corporate machine to a little 00:01:31.519 --> 00:01:35.079 USB drive, that is, I think, the key to understanding 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:37.340 the modern music industry. But to get there, 00:01:37.459 --> 00:01:39.280 we have to go back to the band that started it 00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:41.799 all. Enough is enough. Enough is enough. Now, 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:43.299 when I was looking at the research, I was really 00:01:43.299 --> 00:01:46.819 surprised by how... how strictly that glam label 00:01:46.819 --> 00:01:49.379 was stuck on them. Because Donny Vi wasn't just 00:01:49.379 --> 00:01:51.700 the singer. No, and that's the huge misconception 00:01:51.700 --> 00:01:54.140 here. In so many of those 80s bands, the singer 00:01:54.140 --> 00:01:56.459 was just the front man. You know, his job was 00:01:56.459 --> 00:01:58.560 to look good, spin the mic stand, hype up the 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:00.239 crowd. Sure, and the guitar player wrote the 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:03.959 riffs. Right. But Donny Vi. Oh. He was the architect. 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:06.060 He's a multi -instrumentalist, isn't he? Yeah. 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:10.479 Piano, harmonica, guitar, and... Crucially, he 00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:12.740 was the primary songwriter. If you strip away 00:02:12.740 --> 00:02:15.139 all that, you know, heavy 80s production, that 00:02:15.139 --> 00:02:17.919 big reverb on the snare drum, the bones of the 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:20.620 songs are pure power pop. OK, let's pause there 00:02:20.620 --> 00:02:22.659 for a second. Power pop. We throw that term around 00:02:22.659 --> 00:02:24.379 a lot. But for someone listening who just thinks 00:02:24.379 --> 00:02:26.740 pop music, what's the difference? Why does that 00:02:26.740 --> 00:02:30.340 matter for Donny Vi? So think of power pop as. 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:33.300 The intersection of the Beatles and the Who. 00:02:33.780 --> 00:02:36.439 It's all about these really strong, khaki melodies, 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:39.020 sweet harmonies, hooks that get stuck in your 00:02:39.020 --> 00:02:41.300 head. Okay. But it's played with the aggression 00:02:41.300 --> 00:02:43.879 and the volume of hard rock. It's like a sweet 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:46.280 melody delivered with a really heavy hand. So 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:48.819 you have this guy, Donny Vai, writing these Beatles 00:02:48.819 --> 00:02:51.219 -esque melodies, but he's packaged in the leather 00:02:51.219 --> 00:02:54.159 and the makeup of 1989. And it worked. For a 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:56.719 minute, anyway, this is the rise era. Late 80s, 00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:59.860 they signed to ATCO Records, which, I mean, this 00:02:59.860 --> 00:03:01.919 is the big time. And they had the hits, New Thing 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:05.919 and Fly High Michelle. Huge tracks, just huge. 00:03:06.099 --> 00:03:09.219 They both hit the Billboard mainstream rock charts. 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:12.219 I think Fly High Michelle even cracked the top 00:03:12.219 --> 00:03:14.979 50 on the Hot 100. They were all over MTV. And 00:03:14.979 --> 00:03:17.419 the notes say they played late night with David 00:03:17.419 --> 00:03:21.240 Letterman. That feels like... I don't know, a 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:23.719 specific cultural stamp of approval. It absolutely 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:26.639 was. Letterman was the gatekeeper of cool. If 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:28.479 you were just some, you know, dumb rock band, 00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:31.120 you usually didn't get that slot. Being on Letterman 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:32.560 meant there was something musically legitimate 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.000 happening there. Right. Paul Schaeffer, the band 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.080 leader, he loved that kind of melodic stuff. 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:39.139 But this is where the story usually ends for 00:03:39.139 --> 00:03:42.819 most people, right? The 90s show up, flannel 00:03:42.819 --> 00:03:46.099 replaces spandex, Nirvana happens, and all the 00:03:46.099 --> 00:03:47.719 hair bands get wiped out. It was like a meteor 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:49.860 hitting the industry. An extinction level event. 00:03:50.349 --> 00:03:53.289 For sure. But enough's enough. They didn't die. 00:03:53.409 --> 00:03:55.469 They didn't. And this is where that songwriting 00:03:55.469 --> 00:03:58.009 depth really comes into play. Because Vi wasn't 00:03:58.009 --> 00:04:00.590 just relying on a gimmick. The music itself aged 00:04:00.590 --> 00:04:02.949 better than a lot of their peers. They put out 00:04:02.949 --> 00:04:06.210 Strength in 91, then Animals with Human Intelligence 00:04:06.210 --> 00:04:11.310 in 1993. 1993. Wow. That's deep into the grunge 00:04:11.310 --> 00:04:15.280 era. Releasing a melodic rock album full of harmonies 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.899 in 1993 must have felt like swimming against 00:04:17.899 --> 00:04:19.800 a tsunami. Commercially, it was really difficult, 00:04:19.899 --> 00:04:22.259 yeah. The labels were dropping 80s bands left 00:04:22.259 --> 00:04:25.120 and right. But critically, fans will tell you 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:27.259 Animals with Human Intelligence is a masterpiece. 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:30.120 It showed they could evolve. They weren't just 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:32.800 stuck in 1989. They just kept grinding. You've 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:36.170 got... Tweak in 95, Terra Finale in 99. The amount 00:04:36.170 --> 00:04:39.430 of output is just, it's wild. The notes say 16 00:04:39.430 --> 00:04:42.910 international releases over a 25 -year career. 00:04:43.189 --> 00:04:45.550 That's a real working class approach to being 00:04:45.550 --> 00:04:47.310 a rock star. You know, you don't just stop because 00:04:47.310 --> 00:04:49.050 the stadium lights go out. You keep writing. 00:04:49.170 --> 00:04:51.569 And remember, Vi is writing almost all of this. 00:04:51.670 --> 00:04:54.050 It's not a committee. It's him. But that kind 00:04:54.050 --> 00:04:56.470 of grind has to take a toll. And this brings 00:04:56.470 --> 00:04:58.550 us to the first major pivot point in this whole 00:04:58.550 --> 00:05:02.170 story. The split. May 2013. Yeah, this really 00:05:02.170 --> 00:05:04.069 struck me. This isn't just a singer leaving a 00:05:04.069 --> 00:05:06.129 band to go to rehab or something. This is the 00:05:06.129 --> 00:05:08.370 guy who wrote the songs, the guy whose voice 00:05:08.370 --> 00:05:11.230 was the sound, leaving the brandy bill, and the 00:05:11.230 --> 00:05:13.250 way he did it. The best of luck message. Yeah, 00:05:13.329 --> 00:05:17.730 talk about that. It just feels so cold. Or maybe 00:05:17.730 --> 00:05:20.250 just final. I think it's resignation. He sent 00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:22.509 a message to the remaining guys, Chipsy Nuff, 00:05:22.589 --> 00:05:24.769 the bassist, and the new singer, Johnny Monaco, 00:05:24.870 --> 00:05:26.850 and basically just said, good luck, I'm out. 00:05:27.339 --> 00:05:30.139 It wasn't a break. It was a clean break. But 00:05:30.139 --> 00:05:33.860 here's the paradox. He leaves in 2013. But the 00:05:33.860 --> 00:05:36.839 band game, Enough's Enough, keeps putting out 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:40.379 albums. Clowns Lounge in 2016. Brainwash Generation 00:05:40.379 --> 00:05:43.420 in 2020. And they're using his material. That's 00:05:43.420 --> 00:05:45.319 right. Clowns Lounge, for instance, was mostly 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:47.860 built from archival demos and unreleased tracks 00:05:47.860 --> 00:05:50.459 that Vi had written years before. So he's physically 00:05:50.459 --> 00:05:53.839 gone. He's checked out. But his ghost is still 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:56.259 funding the whole operation. And that raises 00:05:56.259 --> 00:05:58.480 this fascinating philosophical question about 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:01.279 bands, doesn't it? If the main songwriter and 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:03.839 the voice leaves, but the songs are still there, 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:07.220 is it still the band? Or is it just a tribute 00:06:07.220 --> 00:06:09.339 act with the original logo? It's the Ship of 00:06:09.339 --> 00:06:11.399 Theseus paradox, but with hairspray and guitars. 00:06:11.660 --> 00:06:13.639 Exactly. It creates this weird dynamic where 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:17.680 the brand outlives the artist. But Donnie, he 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:19.740 didn't just go home and wait for royalty checks. 00:06:19.860 --> 00:06:22.100 He'd already been plotting his own path. He started 00:06:22.100 --> 00:06:24.319 the solo work before he even officially left, 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.980 right? He did. Just enough. Came out way back 00:06:27.980 --> 00:06:31.639 in 2003. Which, you know, looking back was a 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:34.120 pretty clear sign that he needed an outlet that 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:36.500 the band couldn't give him. Let's dig into his 00:06:36.500 --> 00:06:38.459 solo album titles for a minute because I feel 00:06:38.459 --> 00:06:40.399 like they're a window into his whole mindset. 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.399 You do not name an album wrapped around my middle 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.120 finger. unless you're trying to send a very specific 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:49.339 message. That was 2012, right before he officially 00:06:49.339 --> 00:06:51.959 quit. That title just screams frustration. It's 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:54.560 so defiant. It's almost punk rock, really. It's 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:56.639 him saying, I'm doing this my way, and if you 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.980 don't like it, well. Here's the finger. Exactly. 00:06:58.980 --> 00:07:01.040 It feels like a reaction to the industry, doesn't 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.139 it? Right. After being told what to do for 20 00:07:03.139 --> 00:07:05.600 plus years. Oh, absolutely. The music industry 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:08.240 is brutal to aging stars. They just want you 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:09.740 to play the hits. They don't want your new art. 00:07:09.939 --> 00:07:12.699 That album title is a total rejection of that 00:07:12.699 --> 00:07:15.750 whole idea. and then just two years later 2014 00:07:15.750 --> 00:07:18.990 he releases the white album which is the complete 00:07:18.990 --> 00:07:21.709 opposite end of the spectrum i mean that's brazen 00:07:21.709 --> 00:07:24.269 you have to have some serious confidence to name 00:07:24.269 --> 00:07:26.769 your album the white album that is sacred ground 00:07:26.769 --> 00:07:29.430 it is but it's also a statement of his lineage 00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:32.290 he's telling everyone stop comparing me to metley 00:07:32.290 --> 00:07:34.970 crew compare me to the beatles he's trying to 00:07:34.970 --> 00:07:38.079 frame his own legacy he sees himself As a songwriter 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:40.439 first, not a glam rocker. That's so interesting 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:42.959 because glam was all about the visual. But by 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:44.740 calling it the white album, he's tripping away 00:07:44.740 --> 00:07:46.519 all the visuals and just saying, listen to the 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:49.319 song. Precisely. And that commitment to the craft, 00:07:49.459 --> 00:07:51.680 it seems to pay off in very specific places. 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:54.860 We have to talk about Japan. Ah, yes. The Japanese 00:07:54.860 --> 00:07:57.720 market. So his 2019 album, Beautiful Things, 00:07:57.939 --> 00:08:01.879 it charts at number 230 in Japan. Now, to an 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:04.160 American listener who's used to top 10 or bust, 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:07.480 230 might sound... I know, irrelevant. Is that 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:09.439 even good? For an independent artist, it is a 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:11.660 huge deal. You have to understand the context. 00:08:11.939 --> 00:08:14.560 Japan has this really unique relationship with 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:17.220 melodic rock. They value melody and technical 00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:19.459 skill over whatever the current trend is. So 00:08:19.459 --> 00:08:21.879 while America moved on to grunge and nu metal 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:25.259 and whatever else, Japan sort of kept the flame 00:08:25.259 --> 00:08:28.079 alive for this style of songwriting. Exactly. 00:08:28.730 --> 00:08:31.290 Being big in Japan is a cliche, but it's also 00:08:31.290 --> 00:08:33.889 real economics. It means you have a fan base 00:08:33.889 --> 00:08:37.230 that's loyal, that buys physical media CDs, are 00:08:37.230 --> 00:08:39.889 still huge over there, and that appreciates the 00:08:39.889 --> 00:08:42.750 craft. Charting there means you're still a viable 00:08:42.750 --> 00:08:45.710 international artist. Right. It means thousands 00:08:45.710 --> 00:08:47.710 of people actually went out and bought your record 00:08:47.710 --> 00:08:49.690 in another country. And the songs on Beautiful 00:08:49.690 --> 00:08:52.429 Things tracks like Instant Karma, they prove 00:08:52.429 --> 00:08:55.110 he hasn't lost that touch. It's that same DNA. 00:08:56.210 --> 00:08:58.610 Catchy, melodic, a little bit sad. He's still 00:08:58.610 --> 00:09:01.149 chasing that perfect song. He's not just resting 00:09:01.149 --> 00:09:03.490 on Fly High Michelle. But he's not just chasing 00:09:03.490 --> 00:09:05.509 the perfect song. He's also having a lot of fun 00:09:05.509 --> 00:09:07.610 with side projects. And I had to bring this up 00:09:07.610 --> 00:09:10.269 because the name made me laugh out loud. Guilt 00:09:10.269 --> 00:09:13.870 and Shame. Yes, the side project. They released 00:09:13.870 --> 00:09:16.570 an album in 2018 called International Jagoffs. 00:09:16.750 --> 00:09:19.700 It is fantastic. It's so self -deprecating. It 00:09:19.700 --> 00:09:21.779 feels like he's totally in on the joke. Like 00:09:21.779 --> 00:09:24.139 he knows the industry is absurd. He knows his 00:09:24.139 --> 00:09:26.559 place in it is a little weird. So why not just 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:28.539 call the album International Jagoffs? It shows 00:09:28.539 --> 00:09:30.980 a real lack of pretension. A lot of artists from 00:09:30.980 --> 00:09:33.419 that era take themselves so seriously. They're 00:09:33.419 --> 00:09:35.960 desperately trying to hold on to that rock god 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:38.580 mystique. Vi seems to have just let all of that 00:09:38.580 --> 00:09:41.340 go. He's collaborating, doing live albums with 00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:44.100 a project called V8. He's just playing music. 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:46.980 Which brings us to the how. How do you get this 00:09:46.980 --> 00:09:49.299 music to people in the 2020s when you're not 00:09:49.299 --> 00:09:52.360 on a major label anymore? We've gone from vinyl 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:56.980 to cassette to CD, and now the USB drive. This 00:09:56.980 --> 00:09:58.799 is one of the interesting parts of his recent 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:02.000 career. In 2021, he releases the Donny Vi collection. 00:10:02.500 --> 00:10:05.259 On a USB stick. On a USB stick. Now, just think 00:10:05.259 --> 00:10:07.379 about the symbolism of that for a second. It's 00:10:07.379 --> 00:10:09.860 basically a data dump of his entire career. It 00:10:09.860 --> 00:10:12.679 is, but it's also total control. Back in the 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:15.259 ATCO days, the label controlled everything. They 00:10:15.259 --> 00:10:17.879 decided how many CDs went to Tower Records. They 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:20.159 controlled the packaging, the liner notes. With 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:22.600 a USB drive, the artist is literally handing 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:25.250 you their digital soul. It's direct -to -consumer 00:10:25.250 --> 00:10:27.549 in its purest form. And it allows for so much 00:10:27.549 --> 00:10:30.509 volume. You can't fit a whole career of demos 00:10:30.509 --> 00:10:34.210 and b -sides and rarities on one CD. The USB 00:10:34.210 --> 00:10:37.009 drive is the format for the true archivist. It 00:10:37.009 --> 00:10:39.389 says, here is everything. If you're a real fan, 00:10:39.669 --> 00:10:42.149 take it all. It's just adapting. And frankly, 00:10:42.289 --> 00:10:44.649 it's really smart. If your fan base is that diehard, 00:10:44.870 --> 00:10:46.730 they don't want a 10 -track album. They want 00:10:46.730 --> 00:10:49.830 the whole vault. Exactly. And Vi has a deep vault. 00:10:49.929 --> 00:10:51.769 We're talking compilations like Extra Strength 00:10:51.769 --> 00:10:55.549 from 2007, The Best of Don... Vi in 2015, he 00:10:55.549 --> 00:10:57.990 gets that his catalog is his biggest asset. He's 00:10:57.990 --> 00:11:00.269 repackaging his legacy for the people who actually 00:11:00.269 --> 00:11:03.149 care instead of trying to convince 16 -year -olds 00:11:03.149 --> 00:11:05.710 on TikTok to listen to him. Which is a mistake 00:11:05.710 --> 00:11:08.009 so many legacy artists make. They're always chasing 00:11:08.009 --> 00:11:10.429 the new shiny thing. Right. Vi is just doubling 00:11:10.429 --> 00:11:12.549 down on his core. You like my songs? Here is 00:11:12.549 --> 00:11:14.350 every song I've ever written on a little stick. 00:11:14.710 --> 00:11:17.149 So when you look at this whole arc from the Aquanet 00:11:17.149 --> 00:11:22.649 haze of 1989 to selling USB drives in 2021, what's 00:11:22.649 --> 00:11:24.820 the lesson here? If I'm an artist or just anyone 00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:26.559 trying to sustain a career in a world that's 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:28.879 always changing, what does Donny Vi's story teach 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:31.759 me? I think the lesson is that image. Well, image 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.240 has an expiration date, but skill does not. Break 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:37.940 that down. The image of enough is enough, the 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:41.179 glam, the hair, all that, it had a shelf life. 00:11:41.419 --> 00:11:44.940 It basically expired around 1992. If Donny Vi 00:11:44.940 --> 00:11:47.379 had just been a pretty face, his career would 00:11:47.379 --> 00:11:49.759 have ended right there. He'd be managing a bar 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:52.279 somewhere today. But the skill, the songwriting. 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:54.899 That's what held up. That's it. He transitioned 00:11:54.899 --> 00:11:57.559 from being a rock star, which is really a performance 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:00.299 of a personality, to being a working songwriter, 00:12:00.460 --> 00:12:03.179 which is a trade. He found new markets like in 00:12:03.179 --> 00:12:06.379 Japan. He found new formats like the USB drive. 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:09.740 He didn't stubbornly try to stay the guy from 00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:13.659 1989. He evolved his business model, but he kept 00:12:13.659 --> 00:12:16.190 his musical core the same. So it's about being 00:12:16.190 --> 00:12:18.610 flexible with the method, but staying stubborn 00:12:18.610 --> 00:12:20.789 about the art. That is a perfect way to put it. 00:12:20.830 --> 00:12:22.509 Before we wrap up, I want to leave our listeners 00:12:22.509 --> 00:12:24.210 with that thought we touched on earlier. It's 00:12:24.210 --> 00:12:25.809 something that's really sticking with me. The 00:12:25.809 --> 00:12:28.730 soul of the band question. Yeah. We see so many 00:12:28.730 --> 00:12:31.250 legacy bands on tour now with, what, maybe one 00:12:31.250 --> 00:12:34.210 original member, sometimes none. In this case, 00:12:34.230 --> 00:12:36.509 you have enough zenith touring and releasing 00:12:36.509 --> 00:12:39.870 music, but the guy who wrote the hits, the guy 00:12:39.870 --> 00:12:43.120 whose voice... defined their whole sound, is 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:45.879 on his own selling USB drives. It makes you ask 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:48.320 yourself, what are we actually a fan of? Are 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.960 we fans of the logo or are we fans of the human 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:53.200 being who made the art in the first place? So 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:55.840 next time you buy a concert ticket to see a classic 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.299 rock band, maybe take a look at the liner notes 00:12:58.299 --> 00:13:01.179 first. You might find the brain of the operation 00:13:01.179 --> 00:13:03.919 is actually somewhere else entirely. Maybe recording 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:06.200 an album called International Jagoffs. And honestly, 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:08.139 that might just be the album worth listening 00:13:08.139 --> 00:13:09.940 to. Thanks for taking the deep drive with us. 00:13:09.980 --> 00:13:10.620 We'll see you next time.