WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.080 You know, if you were to say walk into a room 00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:05.960 right now in 2026 with a business idea and that 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:08.480 idea was, let's start a print magazine about 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.220 niche music. Oh, you would be laughed out. Yeah. 00:00:11.460 --> 00:00:13.759 Immediately. Right. The venture capitalists wouldn't 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:15.519 even let you finish the sentence. No way. The 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:17.679 narrative is just so set in stone. It's been 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:21.920 absolute for 20 years. Print is dead. Magazines 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:25.079 are fossils. And music journalism. I mean, that's 00:00:25.079 --> 00:00:26.980 supposed to be a complete graveyard. Well, yeah, 00:00:27.019 --> 00:00:28.839 you just look at the big names. Rolling Stone 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:31.679 is a shadow of what it was. Spin went digital. 00:00:31.980 --> 00:00:34.060 Pitchfork just got folded into something else. 00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:37.219 The whole economic model just, it collapsed. 00:00:37.539 --> 00:00:39.920 The second the internet showed up, yeah. That's 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:42.240 the prevailing wisdom. Advertisers all fled to 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:44.460 Google and Facebook. Subscriptions completely 00:00:44.460 --> 00:00:46.799 tanked. And, you know, paper got expensive. It's 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:49.460 a pretty simple equation. Except there is this 00:00:49.460 --> 00:00:53.479 glitch in the data. There's... A massive, really 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:55.880 stubborn exception to that rule. And it's operating 00:00:55.880 --> 00:00:59.479 out of Canada. Exclaim. It's so wildly improbable. 00:00:59.539 --> 00:01:03.159 It's a Toronto -based publisher, music and entertainment, 00:01:03.460 --> 00:01:06.959 that's been around for over 30 years. And we're 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:08.640 not just talking about some zombie brand that 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:11.620 only exists on Twitter. No, actual ink. On actual 00:01:11.620 --> 00:01:14.099 paper. Yeah. It's been called the last Canadian 00:01:14.099 --> 00:01:18.420 music magazine still standing. And frankly, it's 00:01:18.420 --> 00:01:22.170 outlasted peers that had, you know, way deeper 00:01:22.170 --> 00:01:24.750 pockets and bigger corporate backing. Which is 00:01:24.750 --> 00:01:27.150 exactly why we need to dig into it. Because on 00:01:27.150 --> 00:01:29.250 the surface, OK, it's a free paper you might 00:01:29.250 --> 00:01:31.530 grab at a record store. But if you look at the 00:01:31.530 --> 00:01:34.750 mechanics of it, Exclaim actually predicted the 00:01:34.750 --> 00:01:37.489 modern attention economy way, way before Silicon 00:01:37.489 --> 00:01:40.049 Valley did. They built a business model that 00:01:40.049 --> 00:01:42.890 was almost accidentally internet proof. And they 00:01:42.890 --> 00:01:45.170 did all that while starting with what is, I think, 00:01:45.170 --> 00:01:47.650 quite possibly the worst branding strategy in 00:01:47.650 --> 00:01:49.530 the history of publishing. We are definitely 00:01:49.530 --> 00:01:51.549 going to get to the unpronounceable name. But 00:01:51.549 --> 00:01:52.989 I want to start at the origin because it really 00:01:52.989 --> 00:01:54.969 sets the stakes. We have to go back to 1991. 00:01:55.469 --> 00:01:59.209 Right. The pre -Internet Dark Ages. The setting 00:01:59.209 --> 00:02:02.250 is Ryerson University in Toronto. It's TMU now, 00:02:02.310 --> 00:02:05.010 of course. Right. And specifically, the campus 00:02:05.010 --> 00:02:08.979 radio station, CKLN -FM. I just love that mental 00:02:08.979 --> 00:02:12.439 image. 90s campus radio. It's got to be stacks 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:16.080 of jewel case CDs everywhere. Dusty soundboards. 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:18.039 Well, for sure. And people having these like 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:20.719 super intense arguments about bands that only 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.300 12 other people have ever heard of. That is exactly 00:02:23.300 --> 00:02:25.300 the vibe. And in the middle of all that, you've 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:27.539 got Ian Dantig. He's the founder. And clearly 00:02:27.539 --> 00:02:29.539 he's still the publisher today. That's so rare. 00:02:29.740 --> 00:02:32.419 It is. So he and this group of radio programmers 00:02:32.419 --> 00:02:35.099 and musicians, they're looking at the media landscape 00:02:35.099 --> 00:02:37.680 and they just realize something is missing. The 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:39.360 big papers weren't touching the stuff they were 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:41.659 actually playing on the radio. Not at all. I 00:02:41.659 --> 00:02:43.360 mean, Canada's always had this massive music 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:46.159 scene. But back in 91, if you weren't, you know, 00:02:46.180 --> 00:02:48.699 Brian Adams or Celine Dion, you just weren't 00:02:48.699 --> 00:02:50.620 getting any ink of the national papers. So there 00:02:50.620 --> 00:02:52.740 was this huge disconnect between the culture 00:02:52.740 --> 00:02:54.539 happening on the street and the culture you could 00:02:54.539 --> 00:02:57.500 buy at the newsstand. Exactly. So they decided 00:02:57.500 --> 00:03:00.080 to fill that gap. They spent about a year prepping. 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:03.960 And then in April 1992, they dropped the first 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:06.629 issue. And this is where that, like, punk rock 00:03:06.629 --> 00:03:08.590 ethos really comes through. They didn't hire 00:03:08.590 --> 00:03:11.509 a marketing firm. They just put symbols on the 00:03:11.509 --> 00:03:14.050 cover. It was a very bold artistic choice that 00:03:14.050 --> 00:03:16.189 turned into a commercial nightmare. For the entire 00:03:16.189 --> 00:03:19.110 first year, the magazine technically did not 00:03:19.110 --> 00:03:22.050 have a name. The logo was just a string of symbols. 00:03:22.150 --> 00:03:24.830 You had an exclamation mark, a star, an at symbol, 00:03:25.110 --> 00:03:28.449 and a pound sign. Goralex, right. Like the comic 00:03:28.449 --> 00:03:31.280 book shorthand for profanity. Which... You know, 00:03:31.379 --> 00:03:35.319 it looks cool on a t -shirt, maybe. But if you're 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:37.500 trying to tell your friend to go pick up a copy, 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.379 what do you even say? Hey, did you see the new 00:03:40.379 --> 00:03:42.599 issue of? Right, there's a blank. And humans 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:44.939 need words. So because the brain is wired for 00:03:44.939 --> 00:03:47.240 pattern recognition, the readers looked at those 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:49.439 symbols, that hashtag, and they just filled in 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:50.979 the blank with the most obvious four -letter 00:03:50.979 --> 00:03:53.199 word that fits that context. They started calling 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:56.370 it the fuck magazine. Which is... I mean, it's 00:03:56.370 --> 00:03:58.310 hilarious if you're 20 years old and working 00:03:58.310 --> 00:04:00.789 at a campus radio station. Oh, for sure. It is 00:04:00.789 --> 00:04:04.770 significantly less hilarious if you are Ian Danzig 00:04:04.770 --> 00:04:07.449 trying to walk into a local business or a bank 00:04:07.449 --> 00:04:12.449 and sell ad space. Hi, I'm the publisher of The 00:04:12.449 --> 00:04:14.629 Fuck Magazine. Would you like to advertise your 00:04:14.629 --> 00:04:16.730 coffee shop with us? It just creates an immediate 00:04:16.730 --> 00:04:20.490 ceiling. You can't scale a profanity. So Danzig 00:04:20.490 --> 00:04:22.730 realized pretty quickly that this nickname was 00:04:22.730 --> 00:04:24.670 going to kill them before they even really got 00:04:24.670 --> 00:04:26.920 started. They needed a word that captured the 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:29.339 energy of that exclamation point, but one that 00:04:29.339 --> 00:04:32.639 was actually printable. So they pivoted. They 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:35.180 officially adopted the name Exclaim. And it saved 00:04:35.180 --> 00:04:37.860 the brand. It did. But what's interesting is 00:04:37.860 --> 00:04:42.310 that chaotic. kind of DIY energy, it didn't disappear. 00:04:42.529 --> 00:04:45.189 It just moved from the cover into their distribution 00:04:45.189 --> 00:04:48.350 strategy. And that, I think, is the real secret 00:04:48.350 --> 00:04:50.970 to why they are still here today. Okay, let's 00:04:50.970 --> 00:04:52.629 look at that. Because usually when we talk about 00:04:52.629 --> 00:04:54.730 print magazines in the 90s, the story ends the 00:04:54.730 --> 00:04:57.550 exact same way. The internet arrives, information 00:04:57.550 --> 00:04:59.930 becomes free, and the magazine dies because nobody 00:04:59.930 --> 00:05:02.209 wants to pay for a subscription anymore. Correct. 00:05:02.410 --> 00:05:05.250 The death of print is almost always a story about 00:05:05.250 --> 00:05:07.089 the death of the subscription model. I mean, 00:05:07.089 --> 00:05:09.870 Rolling Stone or Spin, they relied on you sending 00:05:09.870 --> 00:05:12.089 them a check for 20 bucks a year. When you could 00:05:12.089 --> 00:05:15.850 get all that music news online for free, that 00:05:15.850 --> 00:05:19.029 whole value proposition just, it evaporated. 00:05:19.129 --> 00:05:23.029 But here's the thing. Exclaim never relied on 00:05:23.029 --> 00:05:25.990 subscriptions. No, they were free from day one. 00:05:26.069 --> 00:05:28.430 Which seems like such a small detail, but it's 00:05:28.430 --> 00:05:30.670 actually the whole ballgame. It is. Think about 00:05:30.670 --> 00:05:33.139 the psychology of it. When the internet came 00:05:33.139 --> 00:05:35.699 along and it trained all of us to expect free 00:05:35.699 --> 00:05:39.300 content, most publishers panicked. Yeah, they 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:41.779 had to figure out paywalls or freemium models 00:05:41.779 --> 00:05:45.019 or start begging for donations. Right, exclaim. 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:47.660 Didn't have to change a single thing. Their price 00:05:47.660 --> 00:05:50.879 point was already zero. You cannot undercut free. 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:53.040 So they were effectively an Internet business 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:55.160 just operating in the physical world. They weren't 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:57.180 selling a product to readers. No, they were selling 00:05:57.180 --> 00:05:59.060 an audience to advertisers. They were monetizing 00:05:59.060 --> 00:06:01.639 attention, not paper. Exactly. Yeah. And they 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:04.360 secured that attention through this, like, really 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:06.779 aggressive physical distribution. They are everywhere. 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:09.519 I mean, the numbers are just wild for what is, 00:06:09.579 --> 00:06:13.000 you know, a niche publication. 103 ,000 copies 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:16.259 per issue. Seven times a year. And look where 00:06:16.259 --> 00:06:18.040 they are. They're not just hoping you walk into 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:20.579 a big bookstore. No, they're in 2 ,600 spots. 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:24.199 They're in record stores, bars, concert venues, 00:06:24.500 --> 00:06:27.759 street boxes, on campuses. They put the magazine 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:30.160 in the physical spaces where their demographic 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:33.360 was already spending time and money. It's a totally 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:35.660 friction -free transaction. You're at a bar waiting 00:06:35.660 --> 00:06:37.680 for a friend. You see the magazine on a table. 00:06:37.779 --> 00:06:40.480 You just pick it up. There's no paywall, no login, 00:06:40.620 --> 00:06:44.160 no credit card, nothing. And now, in 2026, that 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:46.459 physical presence is actually a competitive advantage 00:06:46.459 --> 00:06:49.610 again, isn't it? I think so. We're so inundated 00:06:49.610 --> 00:06:52.170 with digital ads that our brains just subconsciously 00:06:52.170 --> 00:06:55.069 block them out. But a physical magazine sitting 00:06:55.069 --> 00:06:57.269 on a table, that commands a totally different 00:06:57.269 --> 00:07:00.269 kind of attention. It's tactile. So while every 00:07:00.269 --> 00:07:02.110 other magazine was desperately trying to get 00:07:02.110 --> 00:07:04.870 readers to pay for content, Exclaim just kept 00:07:04.870 --> 00:07:07.149 flooding the streets with more free stuff. Yeah, 00:07:07.149 --> 00:07:09.209 Ian Danzig has this great theory that they were 00:07:09.209 --> 00:07:11.589 internet proof before the internet even took 00:07:11.589 --> 00:07:13.970 over. Because they never trained their readers 00:07:13.970 --> 00:07:16.029 to see the magazine as a financial transaction. 00:07:16.370 --> 00:07:19.600 It was always a community resource. Always. And 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:22.600 they managed to bridge that gap to digital without 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.360 eating their own print product. Because the website 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:27.620 just serves a different function, right? A completely 00:07:27.620 --> 00:07:30.160 different function. The site, which gets something 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:34.339 like 675 ,000 unique visitors a month, that's 00:07:34.339 --> 00:07:37.250 for the daily news cycle. Breaking stories. And 00:07:37.250 --> 00:07:40.149 the print issue is for the deeper reads. The 00:07:40.149 --> 00:07:41.889 long interviews, the things you actually want 00:07:41.889 --> 00:07:44.290 to sit with. Exactly. It's interesting how the 00:07:44.290 --> 00:07:46.910 scope of that coverage has shifted, too. I remember 00:07:46.910 --> 00:07:49.709 grabbing it, you know, strictly for album reviews. 00:07:49.850 --> 00:07:52.250 But looking at it now, it's basically a full 00:07:52.250 --> 00:07:55.389 entertainment hub. They had to evolve. A music 00:07:55.389 --> 00:07:57.329 -only publication might have been a little too 00:07:57.329 --> 00:08:00.050 narrow to sustain that level of ad revenue over 00:08:00.050 --> 00:08:03.310 time. So they expanded. Right. Into film, comedy, 00:08:03.470 --> 00:08:05.980 even gaming. But they kept that sort of discovery 00:08:05.980 --> 00:08:08.459 ethos, like they'll cover the Toronto International 00:08:08.459 --> 00:08:11.120 Film Festival and Sundance, but they're not just 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.060 rewriting press releases for the latest Marvel 00:08:13.060 --> 00:08:15.279 movie. No, they treat film and comedy with that 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:18.060 same critical lens they use for music. They're 00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:19.939 always looking for the up and comers. Speaking 00:08:19.939 --> 00:08:23.839 of which, they have some very specific niches. 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:26.860 I noticed a recurring series called Canadian 00:08:26.860 --> 00:08:30.600 Cannabis Heroes. Yes. Look, they know their audience. 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:33.220 I guess so. If you are distributing in campus 00:08:33.220 --> 00:08:36.039 pubs and record stores across Canada, there's 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:37.919 probably a certain demographic overlap there. 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:39.899 It's just smart business. But they also have 00:08:39.899 --> 00:08:43.919 things like the A -list. That's their Spotify 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.559 playlist. And new faves. And those recurring 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:50.179 columns are so important. They give the reader 00:08:50.179 --> 00:08:53.139 a sense of structure and familiarity. New faves 00:08:53.139 --> 00:08:55.519 is the direct descendant of that original 1991 00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:58.299 mission. It's basically here is the band you 00:08:58.299 --> 00:09:00.200 haven't heard of yet, but you absolutely need 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:02.120 to know. That's it. OK, so I want to shift to 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:03.820 the people who are actually writing these articles 00:09:03.820 --> 00:09:06.039 because there's a real argument to be made that 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:09.799 exclaim. isn't just a music magazine. It's a 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:12.580 training ground for the entire Canadian media 00:09:12.580 --> 00:09:14.980 landscape. That is not an exaggeration at all. 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:16.940 If you look at their masthead over the past 30 00:09:16.940 --> 00:09:19.419 years, it really does function as a talent incubator. 00:09:19.539 --> 00:09:21.379 It's like the farm system for cultural critics. 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:25.080 Precisely. And what strikes me is the sheer range 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:27.700 of the people who came out of there. So on one 00:09:27.700 --> 00:09:30.080 hand, you have Matt Galloway. The voice of morning 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:33.120 radio in Canada. Very polished, very journalistic, 00:09:33.139 --> 00:09:36.649 very CBC. Exactly. He cut his teeth writing for 00:09:36.649 --> 00:09:39.850 Exclaim. But then, on the complete opposite end 00:09:39.850 --> 00:09:42.809 of that spectrum, you've got Bruce LaBruce. The 00:09:42.809 --> 00:09:46.389 filmmaker, the guy making like radical, subversive 00:09:46.389 --> 00:09:48.909 queer cinema. Very same. And that's what Exclaim 00:09:48.909 --> 00:09:50.889 offered. It was a space where you could be a 00:09:50.889 --> 00:09:53.990 rigorous journalist like Galloway or a total 00:09:53.990 --> 00:09:57.070 counterculture provocateur like LaBruce. Or a 00:09:57.070 --> 00:09:59.570 punk historian like Sam Sutherland. Right. Or 00:09:59.570 --> 00:10:01.669 a hip hop authority like Del Cowie. It didn't 00:10:01.669 --> 00:10:04.629 enforce a single house style that would crush 00:10:04.629 --> 00:10:07.429 a writer's individual voice. It let Anupa Mystery 00:10:07.429 --> 00:10:09.730 develop the voice that eventually took her to 00:10:09.730 --> 00:10:12.210 the fader. It let Denise Benson document the 00:10:12.210 --> 00:10:14.950 entire DJ scene. It basically taught a generation 00:10:14.950 --> 00:10:17.129 of writers how to think critically about art. 00:10:17.210 --> 00:10:19.070 And how to interview, how to meet a deadline. 00:10:19.350 --> 00:10:22.289 All those fundamental skills. And those skills 00:10:22.289 --> 00:10:25.590 transfer to national broadcasters, international 00:10:25.590 --> 00:10:30.990 magazines, book publishing. If, exclaim, had 00:10:30.990 --> 00:10:34.429 folded in, say, 2000, the current landscape of 00:10:34.429 --> 00:10:36.710 Canadian media would look significantly different. 00:10:36.889 --> 00:10:39.509 There'd be a huge void in the critical discourse. 00:10:39.690 --> 00:10:42.690 A massive void. It's just so rare to find an 00:10:42.690 --> 00:10:45.029 institution that's that influential but still 00:10:45.029 --> 00:10:48.289 feels... I don't know, scrappy. Scrappy is the 00:10:48.289 --> 00:10:50.750 perfect word. It never felt corporate. Which 00:10:50.750 --> 00:10:52.669 is probably why it's still culturally relevant 00:10:52.669 --> 00:10:55.049 enough to be made fun of. You know you've really 00:10:55.049 --> 00:10:56.929 made it when the college kids are mocking you. 00:10:57.029 --> 00:10:58.850 This was my favorite detail in all the research. 00:10:59.029 --> 00:11:01.710 In 2023, the student paper at the University 00:11:01.710 --> 00:11:04.529 of British Columbia, the UBC, they dropped a 00:11:04.529 --> 00:11:07.210 parody issue. And they called it Explain. It's 00:11:07.210 --> 00:11:09.509 perfect. Explain. It really is. But just think 00:11:09.509 --> 00:11:11.649 about what that signals. You've got Gen Z students, 00:11:11.789 --> 00:11:14.909 right? Born in the mid -2000s, long after Exclaim 00:11:14.909 --> 00:11:18.090 was founded. And yet the brand is so recognizable 00:11:18.090 --> 00:11:21.029 to them that a spoof actually works. Yeah, if 00:11:21.029 --> 00:11:22.830 nobody read it, the joke would just fall completely 00:11:22.830 --> 00:11:26.610 flat. Exactly. It proves the magazine still holds 00:11:26.610 --> 00:11:29.230 real estate in the cultural consciousness of 00:11:29.230 --> 00:11:32.669 young people. And that is incredibly hard for 00:11:32.669 --> 00:11:36.070 a 30 -year -old legacy media brand to do. Most 00:11:36.070 --> 00:11:38.350 brands that old are just invisible to anyone 00:11:38.350 --> 00:11:41.990 under 25. Totally invisible. So to recap, we 00:11:41.990 --> 00:11:45.169 have a magazine that somehow survived the death 00:11:45.169 --> 00:11:47.750 of print, the rise of the Internet, the pivot 00:11:47.750 --> 00:11:50.309 to video, the collapse of ad markets. All by 00:11:50.309 --> 00:11:52.570 doing the one thing everyone else said was a 00:11:52.570 --> 00:11:55.659 terrible idea. giving the product away for free 00:11:55.659 --> 00:11:57.940 and betting everything on physical distribution. 00:11:58.139 --> 00:12:00.600 It really challenges that core assumption that 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:03.120 everything has to be digital to survive. It does. 00:12:03.220 --> 00:12:06.080 It suggests that there is still so much value 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:09.019 in that old town square model of media. How so? 00:12:09.610 --> 00:12:11.610 Well, just putting something in a box on a street 00:12:11.610 --> 00:12:13.529 corner where anyone can grab it is a democratic 00:12:13.529 --> 00:12:16.570 act. It lowers the barrier to entry for culture. 00:12:16.710 --> 00:12:18.110 You don't need a credit card. You don't need 00:12:18.110 --> 00:12:20.070 a subscription. You just need to be curious. 00:12:20.350 --> 00:12:23.049 And that accessibility is so vital. I mean, in 00:12:23.049 --> 00:12:24.809 an era where so much high quality journalism 00:12:24.809 --> 00:12:27.870 is locked behind a paywall, having a free high 00:12:27.870 --> 00:12:30.350 quality arts publication is kind of a public 00:12:30.350 --> 00:12:33.350 service. It connects the local scene to a national 00:12:33.350 --> 00:12:36.309 conversation in a way that, say, a streaming 00:12:36.309 --> 00:12:39.039 algorithm just can't. Right. Algorithms give 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:41.059 you more of what you already like. A magazine 00:12:41.059 --> 00:12:43.039 in a street box gives you something you didn't 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.659 even know existed. That's the difference. So 00:12:45.659 --> 00:12:48.559 here is the takeaway for you listening. The next 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:50.759 time you're walking past a record store or a 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:53.519 cinema or just walking down the street in a Canadian 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:56.870 city. Look for the box. Pick one up. Actually 00:12:56.870 --> 00:13:00.169 feel the paper. Yeah, see who the new faves are 00:13:00.169 --> 00:13:03.210 this month. Read a review of a band you've never, 00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:05.250 ever heard of. It's a piece of history that is 00:13:05.250 --> 00:13:07.809 still very much alive. Just maybe don't call 00:13:07.809 --> 00:13:10.409 it by its 1992 nickname. No, probably stick with 00:13:10.409 --> 00:13:13.049 Exclaim. It's safer for everyone. Probably for 00:13:13.049 --> 00:13:15.529 the best. Thanks for listening to this deep dive. 00:13:15.730 --> 00:13:16.409 See you next time.