WEBVTT

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Okay, so we have to unpack this right from the

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start because I honestly love this title. It's

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great, isn't it? It's so specific, kind of strange,

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and it sounds a little bit like the punchline

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to a joke you just missed. Right. We are talking

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about an album called A Donut in Both Hands.

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And it absolutely paints a picture. You can just

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see it, right? Someone just double fisting pastries.

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It kind of disarms you. It makes you think you're

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in for something, I don't know, light. Maybe

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a bit of a comedy album. Exactly. But here's

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where it gets really interesting. You look at

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that title, you smile, and then you press play.

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And what you get is, well. It's not a comedy

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routine. It's one of the most intense boundary

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pushing and frankly shocking works of vocal art

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ever recorded. We are diving into the world of

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the British vocalist Phil Minton. And vocalist

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is absolutely the key word there, not just singer.

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Right. Minton is a legend in the world of free

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improvisation. And this album, A Donut in Both

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Hands, is his first solo record. Yeah. It was

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originally released back in 1981 on Rift Records.

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Then it got reissued later by Manim in 1998 with

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some extra tracks. Okay. But the core of it,

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the stuff that really changed the landscape,

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that was recorded between about 1975 and 1982.

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And just to set the stage for you listening right

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now, when we say solo record, we mean solo. Oh,

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yeah. There is no piano, no drums, no... bass

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line to, you know, keep your foot tapping. There

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are no overdubs. Nothing. It is just Phil Minton,

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a microphone in a room. That's it. And I think

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the mission of this deep dive is to really understand

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what happens when a human being decides to stop

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using their voice to just sing songs. In a traditional

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sense. In the traditional sense and starts using

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it as a total instrument of sound. It's such

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a bold move. I mean, most of us, if we stood

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in front of a microphone with no music, we'd

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probably just feel awkward. Completely. But Minton.

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He fills that space. So you should probably prepare

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yourself. This isn't a deep dive into smooth

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jazz or pop vocals. No. We are entering the world

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of sound singing. Sound singing is a great term

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for it. And we should probably explain what that

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actually sounds like, because if you've never

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heard Phil Minton, your brain might scramble

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a bit trying to categorize it. Oh, absolutely.

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I was reading a review by Glen Estorita, and

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he tries to list what you hear on this album.

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And list is just wild. What did he say? He mentions

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traces of operatic librettos, which sounds classy,

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but then immediately follows it with yodeling,

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garbled speech, screeching and folksy humor.

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It's that collision, right? The collision of

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high art and this really guttural noise that

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makes it so fascinating. Yes. You have the operatic

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control. The technique is undeniably there, but

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he's applying it to sounds that we usually filter

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out of music. Richard Cochran, he put it really

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well, too. He said, I can believe that. He talks

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about exoter overtone singing, which is that

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thing where you can sing two notes at once, basically.

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Right, the throat singing. But then Minton just

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switches to childish or animalistic noises. And

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that animalistic description comes up a lot.

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It touches on something. primal. It's not polished

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in the sense of being pretty, but it is incredibly

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disciplined. There's this great story about the

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musician David Moss. He's an experimental musician

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himself, you know, so you'd think he'd be used

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to weird stuff. But he talked about hearing a

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donut in both hands for the first time. He said,

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this guy can do things I've just barely been

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scratching at. He called it shocking. In fact,

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his exact words were almost too shocking. Too

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shocking. That's telling. It suggests Minton

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went past the edge of what even other avant -garde

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musicians thought was possible at the time. Right.

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He wasn't just improvising melodies. He was documenting,

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as you said, anything and everything that could

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be produced by the human voice. I love that phrase.

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Anything and everything. It implies that a cough,

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a wheeze, a scream, a gag is just as valid musically

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as a perfect C sharp. Precisely. And that brings

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us back to the terminology you mentioned sound

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singing earlier. Yeah. That term is often attributed

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to Paul Dutton via the critic Francois Couture.

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And it distinguishes this from just free singing.

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How so? Sound singing implies that the material

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isn't notes and scales. The material is the sound

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wave itself. The texture of it. So he's sculpting

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with noise. Yes. He's treating the larynx, the

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throat, the mouth, not as a vehicle for lyrics,

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but as a synthesizer made of flesh. Which sounds

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incredibly cool, but also... Maybe a little bit

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terrifying. It can be. And this leads us to what

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I think is the biggest tension in this album.

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The disconnect. The disconnect between what Phil

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Mitton is doing and what we, the listeners, are

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hearing. Because when I read about how people

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react to this album, fun isn't the first word

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that comes up. No, not at all. If you look at

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a review from Robert Spencer, he says some of

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the album is... wrenching to hear wrenching he

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describes it as sounding like a man in pain a

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man in pain that is such a heavy description

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and the penguin guide to jazz which is like the

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bible for this stuff they talk about tracks overflowing

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with Pain and pride, anger and redemption. These

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are hugely emotional words. They are. But we

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are hardwired as humans to interpret certain

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vocal sounds as distress signals. That's true.

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If you hear a scream or a choke or a guttural

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groan, your amygdala just lights up. You think,

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danger, suffering, emotion. But here is where

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it gets really interesting. Mitten doesn't agree

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with that interpretation, does he? No, he doesn't.

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And this is the paradox. Right. When Minton was

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asked about the emotional content of his music,

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specifically about all this pain and anger people

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hear, he pushed back. He said, I just got to

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listen to them in an abstract way. So he's disassociating.

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Explicitly. He said, I have to disassociate myself

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from any of the emotional associations. Wow.

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He views it as just sound and music. So while

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the listener is sitting there thinking, oh my

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God, this man is burying his tortured soul. Minton

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is standing there thinking, I wonder what happens

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if I tighten my throat muscles by 10 % and push

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air through my nasal cavity. Exactly. It's wild.

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It's almost like a magic trick. He's generating

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intense emotion in the room, but he's doing it

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through cold, hard mechanics. It really raises

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a fascinating question about empathy and art,

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you know? It does. Are we just projecting that

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pain onto him? He's providing the canvas, the

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sound, and we are painting it with our own fears

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and experiences of what those sounds mean. It's

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like looking at an abstract painting and seeing

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a sad face, when the painter just wanted to use

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the color blue. Exactly. But with the voice,

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it's so much more personal because we all have

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one. We know what it feels like to make a sound

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of pain, so we assume he must be feeling it too.

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Let's get into the actual tracks, because the

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structure of this album is really interesting.

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It's not like there are three -minute pop songs

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here. No, not at all. Some of these things are

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just tiny fragments. Right. Take Cenotaph and

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Wreath. These are under a minute long. 45 seconds

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and 48 seconds, respectively. Tiny. And yet,

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the Penguin Guide to Jazz singles them out. They

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say these tiny tracks are overflowing with pain

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and pride. It shows how much information Minton

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can pack into just a few seconds. He doesn't

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need a long buildup. He can drop you right into

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the intensity immediately. And then you have

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tracks that people apparently can't get enough

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of. The Penguin Guide mentions notes on avarice

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and blasphemy. Right. They say these tracks demand

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frequent recourse to the repeat button. Which

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is high praise for avant -garde vocal improvisation.

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Yeah. Usually you listen once and say, okay,

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I get it. That was intense. Yeah. I've had my

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fill. But to want to repeat it. That suggests

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there's a musical logic there that pulls you

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in. It's not just noise, it's composition. And

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we have to talk about the humor again, because

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despite the whole man in pain vibe, Minton is

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funny. Oh, definitely. I mean, there is a track

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literally called Too Many Donuts Make You Ill.

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It's a good piece of advice, generally speaking.

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It is, but it also serves a purpose on the album,

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right? It has to. It does. It breaks the tension.

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Minton uses that folksy humor as part of the

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palette. If it were just 40 minutes of screaming,

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you'd be exhausted. But by throwing in these

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absurd titles and moments of what sound like

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childish noises, Akron called them. He keeps

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you off balance. You never know if you're supposed

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to laugh or cry. And then there's the Wood Song

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series. On the track list, we see Wood Song 1

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through Wood Song 5. This is where the live aspect

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of the album really shines. Remember, these tracks

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were recorded at different times and places.

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Oh, right. Some in London, some in Bracknell.

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One in Brasser Groms in France. Yeah. The liner

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notes mentioned it specifically. Yeah. Like tracks

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8 through 16 were recorded in Bracknell on August

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15th, 1975. Right. So when you hear the Wood

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Song series, you're hearing a thematic exploration

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that spans his performances. It shows that he's

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not just making random noises every night. He's

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working on ideas. He's revisiting ideas, refining

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them, looking at them from different angles.

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It's a very deliberate practice. I want to circle

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back to the title of the album, A Donut in Both

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Hands, because it turns out this isn't just a

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one -off joke. This donut concept, it became

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a whole saga. It did. It's a decades -long narrative

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arc entirely told through album titles about

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pastries. Okay, walk us through the timeline

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here. So we start with A Donut in Both Hands

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in 1981. That's the introduction. Right. Then

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you fast forward to 1998, and he releases a donut

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in one hand. He lost one. He's losing his grip

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on the donuts. Then 10 years later, in 2008,

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we get no donuts in hand. Oh, no. A tragedy in

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three parts. And finally, in 2015, we get a donut's

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end. That is incredible commitment to a bit.

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It is funny, but Chris Tonelli, who is a vocalist

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and a writer who studied Minton, points out that

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the importance of this series cannot be overstated.

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Really? Why is the Donut Saga so important? Tonelli

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argues that these records challenge entrenched

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notions of what vocal sounds are ugly and what

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are beautiful. By using these silly, almost throwaway

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titles, Minton is juxtaposing the absurdity of

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the title with the profound, often jiggle nature

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of the sound. He's challenging the pervasive

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order of the valuable and valueless? Exactly

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that. We tend to think beautiful singing equals

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valuable. Ugly noise equals valueless. Sure.

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Minton says, here's a noise that sounds like

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a dying animal, and I'm going to call it a donut

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in both hands. Yeah. He is messing with your

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categories of value. He's demanding you take

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the ugly sound seriously, but he's also refusing

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to take himself too seriously. That is a delicate

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balance. It stops the art from becoming pretentious.

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It's like he's saying, yes, this is high art,

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but also donuts. Right. And it keeps the work

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grounded. It reminds us that these sounds, the

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burps, the squeaks, the groans, are part of everyday

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life. They are human sounds. We make them when

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we eat, when we sleep, when we get sick. Mitten

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is just elevating them to the stage. So when

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we look at the legacy of this album, it came

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out in 81. It's been over 40 years. Why does

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it still matter? I think it matters because we

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are still kind of catching up to it. Robert Spencer

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wrote that Minton was exploring territory that

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will be further explored by others, and he was

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so right. You can hear it today. You hear echoes

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of Minton in all kinds of experimental music,

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metal, sound design today. It's the permission

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it gives, isn't it? Yes. It gives permission

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to the vocalist to stop being just a melodic

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delivery system for lyrics. It says the voice

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is an instrument with infinite texture. Francois

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Couture noted that this album was one of the

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most influential contributions to free singing.

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It opened the door. And it's fascinating that

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despite being shocking or jarring, reviewers

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keep coming back to how musical it is. Richard

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Cochran said all are very musical. That's the

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key takeaway for me. It's not chaos. It's a different

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kind of order. Minton has total control over

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these sounds. He isn't just screaming, he's composing

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with screams. So if you are listening to this

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and you're thinking, okay, I want to try this,

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what is the mindset you need to go in with? You

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need to let go of the expectation of a song.

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Don't wait for the chorus. Don't wait for the

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chorus. Don't look for the melody. Just listen

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to the texture. Listen to the physical capability

00:12:24.059 --> 00:12:26.460
of the human body. Treat it like a nature documentary.

00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.120
But the nature is the inside of a guy's throat.

00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:34.440
That is a very visceral way to put it, but yeah.

00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:38.159
Pretty much. So to sum this all up. A donut in

00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:41.100
both hands is a document of a man pushing the

00:12:41.100 --> 00:12:44.200
human voice to its absolute limit. It moves from

00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:46.840
funny to frightening, sometimes in the span of

00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:49.679
45 seconds. And it challenges us to rethink what

00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:52.100
we consider music and what we consider noise.

00:12:52.379 --> 00:12:55.480
And it leaves us with this really strange lingering

00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:58.120
thought. We talked about how Minton disassociates

00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.419
from the emotion. He's just making sounds. But

00:13:01.419 --> 00:13:05.120
the listeners, the critics, the fans, they hear

00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:08.710
heartbreak. anger and redemption it's a powerful

00:13:08.710 --> 00:13:10.950
disconnect so here's the question i want to leave

00:13:10.950 --> 00:13:13.509
you with today if the singer doesn't feel the

00:13:13.509 --> 00:13:16.309
emotion but you feel it intensely in your gut

00:13:16.309 --> 00:13:20.690
where does that emotion actually live is it in

00:13:20.690 --> 00:13:23.710
the throat of the singer or is it entirely created

00:13:23.710 --> 00:13:26.090
in the ear of the listener that is the mystery

00:13:26.090 --> 00:13:29.049
of sound thanks for diving deep with us go grab

00:13:29.049 --> 00:13:31.129
a donut put on some headphones and prepare to

00:13:31.129 --> 00:13:33.009
be shocked we'll catch you on the next deep dive