WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.520 Welcome to the debate. Today, we are turning 00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:08.800 our lens inward to examine the elephant in the 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:11.900 geopolitical room, the United States of America. 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:15.900 And what a massive, complicated elephant it is. 00:00:16.019 --> 00:00:18.620 We're talking about the world's third largest 00:00:18.620 --> 00:00:22.079 population, over, what, 341 million people as 00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:25.820 of 2025, and the planet's sole superpower in 00:00:25.820 --> 00:00:29.329 the post -Cold War era. Exactly. But the question 00:00:29.329 --> 00:00:31.710 we're wrestling with today isn't really about 00:00:31.710 --> 00:00:34.869 its size or its military might. It's a question 00:00:34.869 --> 00:00:38.189 of its nature. Is this nation best understood 00:00:38.189 --> 00:00:41.969 as a model of resilience, a kind of self -correcting 00:00:41.969 --> 00:00:44.649 machine that leverages democratic conflict to 00:00:44.649 --> 00:00:48.049 fuel innovation? Or is it a giant with feet of 00:00:48.049 --> 00:00:51.250 clay defined by these deep -seated structural 00:00:51.250 --> 00:00:54.329 contradictions that are, well, finally causing 00:00:54.329 --> 00:00:56.549 the system to crack? That's the heart of it. 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:59.399 Are we looking at a blueprint or a warning? I'm 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:01.920 going to argue the latter. I'm taking the position 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:04.219 that the United States is really defined by its 00:01:04.219 --> 00:01:07.780 paradoxes. It's a story of extreme wealth sitting 00:01:07.780 --> 00:01:10.700 very uncomfortably alongside profound inequality 00:01:10.700 --> 00:01:14.359 and a history where the rhetoric of liberty has 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:17.099 often served to mask deep systemic exclusion 00:01:17.099 --> 00:01:20.099 and more recently, genuine democratic decay. 00:01:20.500 --> 00:01:23.379 And I'm here to argue that the American creed, 00:01:23.420 --> 00:01:26.159 that specific blend of institutional strength, 00:01:26.569 --> 00:01:29.810 economic dynamism, and I think a unique capacity 00:01:29.810 --> 00:01:33.269 for reinvention, ultimately outweighs those flaws. 00:01:33.650 --> 00:01:37.250 The U .S. isn't perfect, no, but it is, I believe, 00:01:37.390 --> 00:01:40.469 uniquely designed to survive its own imperfections. 00:01:40.629 --> 00:01:43.549 That's a very bold claim, especially given the 00:01:43.549 --> 00:01:45.790 headlines of the last, what, five or ten years. 00:01:45.969 --> 00:01:48.489 But okay, let's dig into the foundation. Absolutely. 00:01:48.950 --> 00:01:51.609 You can't understand the United States without 00:01:51.609 --> 00:01:54.629 understanding its source code, the Constitution 00:01:54.629 --> 00:01:58.920 of 1789. We often gloss over this, but it is 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:01.540 the world's oldest surviving written charter 00:02:01.540 --> 00:02:04.319 of government. And that longevity isn't an accident. 00:02:04.420 --> 00:02:07.319 It's a feature of the design. The founders created 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:10.599 a federal constitutional republic. Okay, let's 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:12.560 pause there. Federal constitutional republic. 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:14.759 We throw that term around a lot, but for our 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:17.939 listeners, let's just strip it down. You're talking 00:02:17.939 --> 00:02:20.580 about a system where power is divided not just 00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:22.500 among the branches of government, but between 00:02:22.500 --> 00:02:24.599 the national government and the states. Is that 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:27.889 correct? Exactly right. It's a system of dual 00:02:27.889 --> 00:02:30.990 sovereignty. It was designed specifically to 00:02:30.990 --> 00:02:34.250 handle a continent -sized nation, which has incredibly 00:02:34.250 --> 00:02:37.509 diverse interests. The genius of the system is 00:02:37.509 --> 00:02:40.370 what we call checks and balances. It's not just 00:02:40.370 --> 00:02:43.110 about preventing a dictator. It's about forcing 00:02:43.110 --> 00:02:46.889 compromise. The friction is the point. And this 00:02:46.889 --> 00:02:49.750 framework supports the American creed, liberty, 00:02:49.990 --> 00:02:53.020 equality, limited government. It's a unifying 00:02:53.020 --> 00:02:55.479 civil religion that has allowed a nation of immigrants 00:02:55.479 --> 00:02:58.759 to, for the most part, cohere into a single identity. 00:02:59.060 --> 00:03:02.120 See, this is where we diverge. I look at that 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:05.580 same 1789 document and I don't see a miracle 00:03:05.580 --> 00:03:09.199 of design. I see a compromise with sin. We have 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:10.979 to be honest that the stability we're praising 00:03:10.979 --> 00:03:13.729 was bought at the price of exclusion. The way 00:03:13.729 --> 00:03:15.909 the people in that preamble, while it didn't 00:03:15.909 --> 00:03:17.870 include indigenous peoples, whose population 00:03:17.870 --> 00:03:20.110 collapsed from estimates as high as 10 million 00:03:20.110 --> 00:03:22.490 down to half a million due to dispossession and 00:03:22.490 --> 00:03:25.169 disease, it certainly didn't include the enslaved. 00:03:25.530 --> 00:03:28.870 No, no argument there. The starting point was 00:03:28.870 --> 00:03:32.110 deeply flawed. But those flaws aren't just historical 00:03:32.110 --> 00:03:35.270 footnotes. They're structural features. The Electoral 00:03:35.270 --> 00:03:38.349 College, the Senate filibuster. These are mechanisms 00:03:38.349 --> 00:03:41.169 that often allow a minority to rule over a majority. 00:03:41.849 --> 00:03:44.590 That's not resilience. That's a structural contradiction. 00:03:45.270 --> 00:03:48.009 And when you look at the 2020s, that structure 00:03:48.009 --> 00:03:51.050 is, I mean, it's buckling. We witnessed the January 00:03:51.050 --> 00:03:54.430 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol. Scholars have 00:03:54.430 --> 00:03:57.150 called that an attempted self -coup. That's a 00:03:57.150 --> 00:03:59.629 flashing red light that the checks and balances 00:03:59.629 --> 00:04:02.810 are failing to contain political violence. I 00:04:02.810 --> 00:04:04.930 would disagree with the diagnosis of failure, 00:04:05.129 --> 00:04:07.770 though. The events of January 6 were terrible, 00:04:07.909 --> 00:04:10.569 yes. But if you step back and look at the outcome. 00:04:10.969 --> 00:04:13.569 The system held. The transfer of power happened. 00:04:13.710 --> 00:04:16.589 The judiciary, the third branch, it rejected 00:04:16.589 --> 00:04:19.230 the challenges that lacked evidence. That is, 00:04:19.250 --> 00:04:22.250 to me, the definition of institutional resilience. 00:04:22.550 --> 00:04:25.949 The frame bent, but it didn't break. It didn't 00:04:25.949 --> 00:04:30.230 break this time is not exactly a ringing endorsement 00:04:30.230 --> 00:04:32.850 of its health. But it's consistent with the country's 00:04:32.850 --> 00:04:35.370 history. This country survived a civil war that 00:04:35.370 --> 00:04:38.110 literally split the nation in two and it reemerged 00:04:38.110 --> 00:04:41.160 stronger. It amended that same Constitution, 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:45.060 the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments, to legally 00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:47.519 correct the very sins of slavery you just mentioned. 00:04:47.740 --> 00:04:50.740 The U .S. has a unique capacity for self -correction. 00:04:50.819 --> 00:04:53.670 It's a living system. But is it correcting fast 00:04:53.670 --> 00:04:56.230 enough for the modern world? I mean, you talk 00:04:56.230 --> 00:04:59.170 about legal correction, but look at the sociological 00:04:59.170 --> 00:05:02.310 reality. Projects like the Varieties of Democracy 00:05:02.310 --> 00:05:05.670 and Freedom House have downgraded the US to a 00:05:05.670 --> 00:05:09.430 flawed democracy. They cite polarization and 00:05:09.430 --> 00:05:12.910 the outsized influence of money in politics. 00:05:13.290 --> 00:05:16.370 The donor class argument. It's a valid one. When 00:05:16.370 --> 00:05:19.519 you have a system where lobbying groups and billionaires 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:22.740 can effectively buy policy outcomes. You essentially 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:25.459 have an oligarchy wearing a democratic costume. 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:28.459 Is that the American creed working, or is that 00:05:28.459 --> 00:05:31.000 the system being hijacked? I would argue that 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:33.600 the donor class issue is a challenge within the 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:36.620 system, not a negation of it. The First Amendment 00:05:36.620 --> 00:05:38.680 protects the right to petition the government. 00:05:39.019 --> 00:05:42.079 It's messy, yes, but notice that we are debating 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:44.959 this openly. The press is aggressive. The courts 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:47.199 are still active. But the people are feeling 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:49.730 alienated. I mean, look at the executive order 00:05:49.730 --> 00:05:54.050 1422 -4 from 2025, declaring English the official 00:05:54.050 --> 00:05:56.550 language. That doesn't feel like a confident 00:05:56.550 --> 00:05:59.689 melting pot embracing diversity. It feels like 00:05:59.689 --> 00:06:02.829 a culture war tactic to enforce a specific identity 00:06:02.829 --> 00:06:05.769 because the demographic tides are turning. Or 00:06:05.769 --> 00:06:08.350 you could see it as an attempt to maintain social 00:06:08.350 --> 00:06:11.589 cohesion in a mega diverse society. A common 00:06:11.589 --> 00:06:14.290 language can be a tool for unity, not just exclusion. 00:06:14.939 --> 00:06:16.879 But let's pivot for a second, because if the 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:19.420 political machinery is grinding its gears, the 00:06:19.420 --> 00:06:22.120 economic engine is still roaring. You cannot 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:24.779 look at the 2025 numbers and deny American dominant. 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:27.240 I can certainly look at who benefits from that 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:29.300 dominance. Well, let's look at the aggregate 00:06:29.300 --> 00:06:32.360 first. We're talking about a nominal GDP of $30 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:36.180 .6 trillion. The U .S. dollar is the de facto 00:06:36.180 --> 00:06:38.620 global currency. When the world gets scared, 00:06:38.740 --> 00:06:41.300 they buy dollars. That is the ultimate vote of 00:06:41.300 --> 00:06:43.639 confidence. And it's not just legacy wealth. 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.639 The U .S. is the absolute hub of global innovation. 00:06:46.939 --> 00:06:50.000 Silicon Valley, the new aerospace boom with SpaceX, 00:06:50.259 --> 00:06:52.879 the dominance in AI. This is where the future 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:55.759 is being built. You're listing assets. I'm looking 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:59.600 at the liabilities. But the assets matter. The 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:03.259 U .S. has the most global 500 headquarters, 138 00:07:03.259 --> 00:07:06.180 of them. For the individual, Americans have the 00:07:06.180 --> 00:07:08.819 highest disposable household income per capita 00:07:08.819 --> 00:07:12.399 in the OECD. That's the American dream quantified. 00:07:12.420 --> 00:07:14.540 It's why people still vote with their feet to 00:07:14.540 --> 00:07:17.199 get here. OK, but you are falling into the classic 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:19.920 trap of averages. If Bill Gates walks into a 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:22.180 bar, the average net worth of everyone in that 00:07:22.180 --> 00:07:24.680 bar suddenly becomes a billion dollars. It doesn't 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:26.579 mean everyone else can buy a drink. It's a fair 00:07:26.579 --> 00:07:30.040 point on the skew, but... It's a massive skew. 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:34.120 The top 10 % own 72 % of the wealth. The bottom 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:39.420 50%, that's half the country, owns just 2%. That's 00:07:39.420 --> 00:07:42.800 feudalism with iPhones. You cite the $30 trillion 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:47.459 GDP. But in 2022, nearly 38 million people lived 00:07:47.459 --> 00:07:51.000 in poverty. 13 million children facing food insecurity 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.019 in the richest nation in human history. That 00:07:54.019 --> 00:07:57.019 is a grotesque contradiction, not a success story. 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:00.040 It is a contradiction, I grant you that. But 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:02.500 I would argue that the U .S. model makes a specific 00:08:02.500 --> 00:08:05.839 trade -off. It prioritizes dynamism and opportunity 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:09.319 over static security. The reason the U .S. leads 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:11.500 in innovation is because it allows for creative 00:08:11.500 --> 00:08:13.939 destruction. It's a high -risk, high -reward 00:08:13.939 --> 00:08:16.939 environment. And what happens if you fall? Older 00:08:16.939 --> 00:08:19.459 than in Europe. But that lack of a heavy regulatory 00:08:19.459 --> 00:08:22.060 blanket is precisely what prevents the economic 00:08:22.060 --> 00:08:25.339 stagnation we sometimes see in the EU. It creates 00:08:25.339 --> 00:08:28.759 a flexible labor market. Flexible is just a euphemism 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:31.899 for precarious. The US is the only advanced economy 00:08:31.899 --> 00:08:34.440 that does not guarantee paid vacation nationally. 00:08:34.820 --> 00:08:37.320 It's one of the very few without federal paid 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:40.100 family leave. The economic engine you admire 00:08:40.100 --> 00:08:43.419 is fueled by burning out its workers. And just 00:08:43.419 --> 00:08:45.740 look at the health outcomes. But the US leads 00:08:45.740 --> 00:08:48.230 the world in medical innovation. the Texas Medical 00:08:48.230 --> 00:08:50.610 Center, the pharmaceutical breakthroughs. And 00:08:50.610 --> 00:08:54.429 yet life expectancy was 79 years in 2024. That 00:08:54.429 --> 00:08:56.690 trails almost all other wealthy peer nations. 00:08:57.110 --> 00:08:59.590 You spend more per capita on health care than 00:08:59.590 --> 00:09:03.110 anyone else for worse results. That is the very 00:09:03.110 --> 00:09:05.809 definition of inefficiency. You have a health 00:09:05.809 --> 00:09:08.830 disadvantage gap that no amount of AI in Silicon 00:09:08.830 --> 00:09:11.309 Valley is fixing. The life expectancy number 00:09:11.309 --> 00:09:14.269 is recovering, though. It's showing resilience 00:09:14.269 --> 00:09:17.340 post -pandemic. And I think you're underestimating 00:09:17.340 --> 00:09:20.200 the cultural aspect of this economy. The reason 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:23.220 social mobility is a goal here, even if it has 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:25.659 stalled recently, is because the culture celebrates 00:09:25.659 --> 00:09:28.639 the attempt. But social mobility is stalled. 00:09:28.740 --> 00:09:31.440 It is statistically harder to rise from the bottom 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.940 quintile in the U .S. than it is in Canada or 00:09:33.940 --> 00:09:37.679 Denmark. The American dream is, ironically, more 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:40.220 achievable in Copenhagen than it is in Cleveland. 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:43.220 The wealth concentration creates a feedback loop. 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:45.860 Money buys political influence, which rewrites 00:09:45.860 --> 00:09:47.879 the rules to protect the wealth, which in turn 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:51.080 kills mobility. I think that's too cynical. You're 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:54.519 ignoring the massive role of civil society. Americans 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:58.720 donate 1 .44 % of GDP to charity. That's the 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:00.940 highest rate in the world. Where the government 00:10:00.940 --> 00:10:04.159 steps back, the culture often steps in. And this 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:07.500 brings us to the third pillar, identity. Which 00:10:07.500 --> 00:10:10.240 is currently a battlefield. It's a vibrant debate. 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:13.980 The U .S. is a mega -diverse country. We aren't 00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:16.740 a nation based on ethnicity. We're a nation based 00:10:16.740 --> 00:10:20.799 on an idea. We have 574 federally recognized 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:23.919 tribes, speakers of every language from Chinese 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:26.759 to Tagalog, and this is all protected by the 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:30.000 First Amendment, the strongest free speech protections 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.919 on Earth. Free speech is vital, but we have to 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:35.279 talk about the physical safety required to exercise 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:38.139 it. You cannot separate American culture from 00:10:38.139 --> 00:10:41.120 American violence. Well... Violence is a global 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:44.700 issue. Not like this. The homicide rate in the 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:47.000 U .S. is seven times higher than its high -income 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:50.620 peers. And let's be real. It's the guns. The 00:10:50.620 --> 00:10:52.460 Second Amendment is a unique feature of your 00:10:52.460 --> 00:10:54.740 Constitution that results in a unique tragedy, 00:10:55.019 --> 00:10:58.080 a body count that no other developed nation tolerates. 00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:02.139 It is a tragedy, but it's also a reflection of 00:11:02.139 --> 00:11:05.980 a culture that, for better or worse, prioritizes 00:11:05.980 --> 00:11:08.799 individual defense and liberty. It's a stark 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.799 tradeoff. But look at the flip side of that coin. 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:15.100 That same spirit of individualism is what drives 00:11:15.100 --> 00:11:18.059 the arts, the culture, the refusal to conform. 00:11:18.379 --> 00:11:21.139 But who gets to be an individual? We have to 00:11:21.139 --> 00:11:23.860 talk about the carceral state. The U .S. has 00:11:23.860 --> 00:11:26.080 the highest incarceration rate in the world, 00:11:26.259 --> 00:11:31.539 531 per 100 ,000 people, nearly 2 million people 00:11:31.539 --> 00:11:34.419 behind bars. And the racial disparity in those 00:11:34.419 --> 00:11:37.580 prisons is a direct line from slavery to Jim 00:11:37.580 --> 00:11:40.870 Crow. to mass incarceration. That's not liberty. 00:11:41.110 --> 00:11:44.049 For a huge segment of the population, the state 00:11:44.049 --> 00:11:47.250 is a cage, not a shield. The incarceration rate 00:11:47.250 --> 00:11:49.490 is a massive problem, I admit it. But reform 00:11:49.490 --> 00:11:51.409 is happening. It's happening at the state level, 00:11:51.450 --> 00:11:53.809 which is federalism in action. And despite these 00:11:53.809 --> 00:11:55.389 flaws, the U .S. still assimilates immigrants 00:11:55.389 --> 00:11:58.549 better than almost anyone. 27 % of the population 00:11:58.549 --> 00:12:01.090 are immigrants or their children. They are becoming 00:12:01.090 --> 00:12:04.909 Americans. The melting pot still works. I think 00:12:04.909 --> 00:12:07.379 the melting pot is boiling over. You mentioned 00:12:07.379 --> 00:12:09.740 the English language order earlier. That signals 00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:12.440 that the dominant culture feels threatened. The 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:14.740 polarization we're seeing isn't just about taxes. 00:12:14.940 --> 00:12:17.820 It's about who gets to be an American. The westward 00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:19.620 expansion narrative is being challenged by the 00:12:19.620 --> 00:12:21.980 reality of the Trail of Tears. The land of the 00:12:21.980 --> 00:12:23.879 free narrative is being challenged by the reality 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:26.840 of the prison industrial complex. And that challenge 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:30.919 is the mechanism of improvement. The fact that 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:33.279 we are teaching these histories, arguing about 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.320 them in school boards, and debating them right 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:38.519 now. That is the First Amendment at work. A fragile 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:41.100 system would suppress this history. A resilient 00:12:41.100 --> 00:12:43.960 system argues about it. Or a fracturing system 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.960 tears itself apart over it. We're nearing the 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.759 end of our time. Let's try to synthesize this. 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:52.460 When I look at the United States, I don't see 00:12:52.460 --> 00:12:55.820 a utopia. I see a workshop. It's noisy, it's 00:12:55.820 --> 00:12:59.080 dangerous, and it's messy. A workshop implies 00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:02.100 that things are being fixed. I believe they are. 00:13:02.299 --> 00:13:05.240 The framework of the Constitution. The sheer 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:09.139 muscle of the $30 trillion economy and the unparalleled 00:13:09.139 --> 00:13:11.700 innovation ecosystem proved that the American 00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:14.600 creed is functional. The U .S. is still the destination 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:17.399 for the world's ambitious. It guarantees global 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.100 security through its alliances. It has survived 00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:23.120 civil war, depression, and the Cold War. It has 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:25.340 the institutional muscle to survive this current 00:13:25.340 --> 00:13:28.080 polarization. The resilience, I believe, outweighs 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.379 the contradiction. And I look at that same workshop 00:13:30.379 --> 00:13:33.370 and I see a machine that runs on blood. Focusing 00:13:33.370 --> 00:13:35.850 on the framework allows us to ignore the human 00:13:35.850 --> 00:13:39.169 cost required to maintain it. The United States 00:13:39.169 --> 00:13:41.889 is a wealthy oligarchy that leaves millions in 00:13:41.889 --> 00:13:45.110 poverty. It is a democracy flashing very real 00:13:45.110 --> 00:13:48.429 warning signs of autocracy. So no hope for correction 00:13:48.429 --> 00:13:51.629 in your view? Not without a fundamental rewrite 00:13:51.629 --> 00:13:54.870 of the social contract. Without addressing the 00:13:54.870 --> 00:13:57.950 wealth gap, the health disparities, and the carceral 00:13:57.950 --> 00:14:01.230 state, that resilience you speak of is brittle. 00:14:01.429 --> 00:14:03.850 You cannot simply innovate your way out of a 00:14:03.850 --> 00:14:07.269 broken society. The U .S. is a cautionary tale 00:14:07.269 --> 00:14:09.990 of what happens when you prioritize an abstract 00:14:09.990 --> 00:14:14.029 idea of liberty over tangible equity. It seems 00:14:14.029 --> 00:14:16.509 the source material leaves us with something 00:14:16.509 --> 00:14:20.309 of a Rorschach test. A nation of extremes, the 00:14:20.309 --> 00:14:23.169 highest wealth and high poverty, supreme power 00:14:23.169 --> 00:14:26.200 and yet deep internal division. It leaves the 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:28.820 listener with the question, is the United States 00:14:28.820 --> 00:14:31.799 a model to be emulated or a warning to be heeded? 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:34.919 That is for you to decide. Thank you for listening 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:36.379 to the debate. Goodbye.