WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.500 Axis of evil. It's just three words, right? But 00:00:03.500 --> 00:00:07.219 they have this incredible weight. You hear them 00:00:07.219 --> 00:00:09.500 and you're instantly taken back to the early 00:00:09.500 --> 00:00:11.839 2000s. Oh, absolutely. That, you know, grainy 00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:14.539 news footage, the constant tension of that whole 00:00:14.539 --> 00:00:17.820 post 9 -11 world. It sounds less like foreign 00:00:17.820 --> 00:00:20.899 policy and more like the title of a summer blockbuster. 00:00:21.059 --> 00:00:23.179 It does. It has a very cinematic quality. It's 00:00:23.179 --> 00:00:25.960 dramatic. It's memorable. And it's absolute. 00:00:26.940 --> 00:00:29.039 But as we were digging through the sources for 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:30.820 today, you know, the memoirs, the diplomatic 00:00:30.820 --> 00:00:33.600 cables, what really jumps out is that those three 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:36.119 words weren't just some catchy soundbite. They 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:39.039 were a pivot point. They fundamentally rewired 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:42.259 American foreign policy. And I'd argue they kind 00:00:42.259 --> 00:00:44.740 of froze our diplomatic imagination for a generation. 00:00:45.140 --> 00:00:46.859 That's exactly. what we're getting into today. 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:49.500 We're not just, you know, recounting the speech. 00:00:49.560 --> 00:00:53.359 We're trying to unpack the black box of how this 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:55.719 very specific phrase was engineered. And why 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:58.679 those countries. Exactly. Why those wildly different 00:00:58.679 --> 00:01:01.439 countries got glued together and the huge diplomatic 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:03.320 fallout that was happening behind the scenes. 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:05.599 Stuff the public really didn't see for years. 00:01:05.819 --> 00:01:07.599 We're going to look at how a speechwriter trying 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:11.060 to channel FDR, of all people, ended up, maybe 00:01:11.060 --> 00:01:13.640 accidentally, sabotaging a secret back channel 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:16.719 with Iran. And how the term has sort of zombie 00:01:16.719 --> 00:01:19.900 walked its way back into politics today in 2024 00:01:19.900 --> 00:01:22.340 with a whole new cast of characters. The mission 00:01:22.340 --> 00:01:25.159 here really is to move beyond the slogan. Right. 00:01:25.219 --> 00:01:27.579 We all know the phrase, but the logic they use 00:01:27.579 --> 00:01:30.400 to justify linking Iran, Iraq and North Korea 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:33.439 was actually quite specific. And it was highly 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:35.480 controversial, even inside the White House itself. 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:38.640 So let's set the scene. It's January 29, 2002. 00:01:38.900 --> 00:01:41.079 The State of the Union address. And context is 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:43.079 everything here. We are less than five months 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:46.040 out from the September 11th attacks. The rubble 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:48.900 at ground zero is arguably still smoldering in 00:01:48.900 --> 00:01:51.420 the national psyche. The war in Afghanistan is 00:01:51.420 --> 00:01:54.200 underway. The Taliban's on the run. And President 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:57.040 George W. Bush steps up to the podium to basically 00:01:57.040 --> 00:01:59.799 define the next phase of the war on terror. The 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:02.379 atmosphere in that room and in the country was 00:02:02.379 --> 00:02:05.060 just electric. You have to remember, the nation 00:02:05.060 --> 00:02:07.319 was unified in this mix of fear and resolve. 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:10.240 And Bush needed to explain that the threat wasn't 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:12.139 just a stateless group like al -Qaeda hiding 00:02:12.139 --> 00:02:15.039 out in caves. He wanted to pivot. To pivot the 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:18.360 focus to state sponsors. Exactly. And he names 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.120 names. He specifically calls out North Korea, 00:02:21.219 --> 00:02:24.539 Iran, and Iraq. He accuses them of seeking weapons 00:02:24.539 --> 00:02:26.879 of mass destruction, of threatening world peace. 00:02:27.060 --> 00:02:29.729 And then he drops the hammer. States like these 00:02:29.729 --> 00:02:32.930 and their terrorist allies constitute an axis 00:02:32.930 --> 00:02:36.250 of evil. It was a thunderclap. But this is where 00:02:36.250 --> 00:02:38.129 the research gets so fascinating because we assume 00:02:38.129 --> 00:02:40.090 this phrase came from, I don't know, a room full 00:02:40.090 --> 00:02:42.069 of generals looking at a map. But it didn't. 00:02:42.069 --> 00:02:44.610 Not at all. It came from a laptop in a speechwriter's 00:02:44.610 --> 00:02:47.210 office. This is the David Frum story. And I was 00:02:47.210 --> 00:02:49.710 reading his memoirs on this. He was a speechwriter 00:02:49.710 --> 00:02:52.509 for Bush. And he gets this assignment from the 00:02:52.509 --> 00:02:54.590 head speechwriter, Michael Gerson. So it sounds 00:02:54.590 --> 00:02:57.330 almost impossible. Right. Gerson tells him, make 00:02:57.330 --> 00:03:00.270 the case for removing Saddam Hussein, but do 00:03:00.270 --> 00:03:02.969 it in like two sentences. So where does he go 00:03:02.969 --> 00:03:07.009 for inspiration? He goes back to FDR. He starts 00:03:07.009 --> 00:03:09.849 rereading the date, which will live in infamy 00:03:09.849 --> 00:03:12.389 speech. Pearl Harbor speech. Yeah. From 1941, 00:03:12.590 --> 00:03:15.310 he was looking for a historical template, a way 00:03:15.310 --> 00:03:17.270 to rally a nation against a threat that came 00:03:17.270 --> 00:03:19.750 from multiple directions. But that comparison, 00:03:19.889 --> 00:03:22.270 I mean, it's pretty fraught with problems, isn't 00:03:22.270 --> 00:03:24.870 it? In 1941, you had Germany and Japan. These 00:03:24.870 --> 00:03:27.610 were industrial giants, global military powers. 00:03:27.750 --> 00:03:30.789 Right. In 2002, you have Iraq, which was sanctioned 00:03:30.789 --> 00:03:33.909 and contained. And Iran. Regional power, sure, 00:03:34.050 --> 00:03:36.210 but not exactly the Third Reich. It feels like 00:03:36.210 --> 00:03:39.229 a huge stretch. It was a massive rhetorical leap, 00:03:39.370 --> 00:03:44.460 no question. He latched onto this really specific 00:03:44.460 --> 00:03:47.180 psychological detail from the World War II dynamic. 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.979 He realized that the original Axis powers, Germany, 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:54.020 Japan, Italy, they didn't actually like each 00:03:54.020 --> 00:03:55.740 other. They didn't really trust each other or 00:03:55.740 --> 00:03:58.060 coordinate strategy. Berlin and Tokyo weren't, 00:03:58.060 --> 00:03:59.939 you know, syncing up their invasions. It was 00:03:59.939 --> 00:04:03.520 a total marriage of convenience. So the lack 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:05.639 of trust between them was the feature, not the 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:08.349 bug of the analogy. Precisely. That was Frum's 00:04:08.349 --> 00:04:11.449 whole point. His argument was that even if Iran, 00:04:11.750 --> 00:04:14.270 Iraq and North Korea weren't allies, in fact, 00:04:14.270 --> 00:04:16.970 even if they hated each other, they shared this 00:04:16.970 --> 00:04:20.389 resentment of the West and a desire to disrupt 00:04:20.389 --> 00:04:22.509 the global order. And in the first draft, he 00:04:22.509 --> 00:04:24.610 called it the axis of hatred. Axis of hatred. 00:04:24.889 --> 00:04:26.970 It lands so differently, doesn't it? It sounds. 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:31.000 emotional yeah almost manageable and that is 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:33.519 the crucial distinction because you can negotiate 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:35.839 with hatred hatred is a human feeling it can 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:38.199 cool down you can manage it with diplomacy yeah 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:40.839 but when President Bush changed it to axis of 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:45.090 evil to make it sound more resolute more theological, 00:04:45.090 --> 00:04:48.269 he changed the entire strategic landscape. Because 00:04:48.269 --> 00:04:50.769 you can't negotiate with evil. Exactly. Or rather, 00:04:50.870 --> 00:04:52.850 you shouldn't. Evil is an absolute. You have 00:04:52.850 --> 00:04:55.089 to destroy evil or contain it until it collapses 00:04:55.089 --> 00:04:57.949 on itself. By shifting the language from, say, 00:04:57.990 --> 00:05:01.610 political opposition to moral theology, the administration 00:05:01.610 --> 00:05:04.310 basically signaled that diplomacy was off the 00:05:04.310 --> 00:05:06.209 table. It kind of cornered them, didn't it? It 00:05:06.209 --> 00:05:08.649 did, into a stance of permanent confrontation. 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:11.879 And the grouping itself, I mean the actual members 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:15.160 of this club, drew immediate fire from foreign 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:18.649 policy realists. Gripping Iran and Iraq together. 00:05:18.910 --> 00:05:21.850 Well, yeah. They had just spent the entire 1980s 00:05:21.850 --> 00:05:23.610 killing each other. Yeah. In one of the most 00:05:23.610 --> 00:05:26.709 brutal wars of the 20th century. Saddam and the 00:05:26.709 --> 00:05:28.970 Ayatollahs were mortal enemies. That was the 00:05:28.970 --> 00:05:31.170 big enemy of my enemy criticism. It confused 00:05:31.170 --> 00:05:34.029 everyone in the region. To the Iranians, being 00:05:34.029 --> 00:05:36.389 lumped in with Saddam Hussein was just, it was 00:05:36.389 --> 00:05:38.290 insulting. And then you throw in North Korea, 00:05:38.430 --> 00:05:41.769 a hermit kingdom in East Asia with zero connection 00:05:41.769 --> 00:05:44.290 to the other two. Right. And it just looked like 00:05:44.290 --> 00:05:47.370 a grab bag of bad act. not a coherent alliance. 00:05:47.790 --> 00:05:50.170 Plus, the 9 -11 connection was so thin, none 00:05:50.170 --> 00:05:52.269 of the hijackers were from these countries. Al 00:05:52.269 --> 00:05:55.490 -Qaeda was Sunni extremist. Iran is a Shia theocracy 00:05:55.490 --> 00:05:58.209 that saw Al -Qaeda as a direct threat. All that 00:05:58.209 --> 00:06:00.410 nuance just got completely flattened. Flattened 00:06:00.410 --> 00:06:02.970 is the perfect word. But the tragedy of this 00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:05.370 flattening isn't just academic. And this, for 00:06:05.370 --> 00:06:06.990 me, this brings us to the most heartbreaking 00:06:06.990 --> 00:06:09.930 part of the entire research file. The story of 00:06:09.930 --> 00:06:13.649 Ryan Crocker. This part. This just blew my mind. 00:06:13.769 --> 00:06:16.490 So Ryan Crocker is a senior State Department 00:06:16.490 --> 00:06:18.750 official. And the sources show that right after 00:06:18.750 --> 00:06:21.949 9 -11, while the dust is still settling, he's 00:06:21.949 --> 00:06:25.209 on a plane to Geneva for secret meetings. And 00:06:25.209 --> 00:06:28.470 who is he meeting with? Iranian diplomats. This 00:06:28.470 --> 00:06:31.629 is the great sliding doors moment of modern history. 00:06:31.750 --> 00:06:34.509 For months, the U .S. and Iran were cooperating. 00:06:34.750 --> 00:06:37.370 They had a shared enemy in the Taliban. Iran 00:06:37.370 --> 00:06:40.069 hated the Taliban. Of course. So in Geneva, you 00:06:40.069 --> 00:06:42.970 have... Iranian diplomats sitting across from 00:06:42.970 --> 00:06:45.610 Crocker, literally spreading out maps, pointing 00:06:45.610 --> 00:06:48.170 out Taliban positions, sharing intelligence. 00:06:48.170 --> 00:06:50.389 The sources even say the Iranians offered to 00:06:50.389 --> 00:06:53.269 rescue downed American pilots if it came to that. 00:06:53.329 --> 00:06:55.149 This wasn't just talk. This is real operational 00:06:55.149 --> 00:06:58.629 support. It was real politic inaction, a convergence 00:06:58.629 --> 00:07:01.360 of interests. And then. The State of the Union 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:03.879 happens. Crocker's in Geneva. He's building this 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:06.019 fragile trust. And suddenly the president goes 00:07:06.019 --> 00:07:08.699 on global television and declares Iran part of 00:07:08.699 --> 00:07:10.620 the axis of evil. And the door just slams shut 00:07:10.620 --> 00:07:13.060 instantly. The Iranian diplomats were humiliated. 00:07:13.100 --> 00:07:14.879 Oh, I can't imagine. They'd gone out on a limb 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:17.259 with their own hardliners in Tehran to engage 00:07:17.259 --> 00:07:20.100 with the great Satan, hoping for a real thaw. 00:07:20.540 --> 00:07:23.279 And they just got slapped in the face. The hardliners 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:25.740 back in Tehran, the guys who chant death to America, 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:28.019 they basically got to turn to the moderates and 00:07:28.019 --> 00:07:31.029 say. We told you so. We told. you so you can't 00:07:31.029 --> 00:07:33.350 trust them they think we're evil it completely 00:07:33.350 --> 00:07:36.110 killed the reformist movement in iran for that 00:07:36.110 --> 00:07:39.170 entire cycle president katami who's a moderate 00:07:39.170 --> 00:07:41.769 he expressed sympathy for 9 11 victims there 00:07:41.769 --> 00:07:44.850 were actual candlelight vigils in tehran wow 00:07:44.850 --> 00:07:47.709 and this speech just validated the hardliner 00:07:47.709 --> 00:07:51.290 narrative and from that point on iran accelerates 00:07:51.290 --> 00:07:53.509 its nuclear program and its support for proxies 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:56.540 It became a self -fulfilling prophecy. We called 00:07:56.540 --> 00:07:58.480 them an enemy, so they started acting like one. 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:00.639 And the term didn't even stop there. It sort 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:02.860 of became a franchise, didn't it? A few months 00:08:02.860 --> 00:08:05.420 later, you have John Bolton giving a speech called 00:08:05.420 --> 00:08:09.100 Beyond the Axis of Evil. Oh, yeah. Adding Libya, 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:11.720 Syria, and Cuba to the list. It's like they were 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:14.040 expanding the cinematic universe of rogue states. 00:08:14.540 --> 00:08:17.920 And in response, the quote unquote villains organized. 00:08:18.699 --> 00:08:21.879 Iran eventually formalized its own network of 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:25.399 proxies. Hezbollah, Hamas, militias in Iraq and 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:28.199 Syria. And they explicitly called it the axis 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.259 of resistance. They just took the rhetoric and 00:08:30.259 --> 00:08:31.480 flipped it right back. You're going to call us 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:33.879 an axis. We'll be an axis. They lean into it. 00:08:33.940 --> 00:08:36.179 Which brings us to today. Yeah. Because the phrase 00:08:36.179 --> 00:08:38.980 just refuses to die. We're seeing it resurrected 00:08:38.980 --> 00:08:42.460 now in 2024. But the cast of characters has changed 00:08:42.460 --> 00:08:46.120 a lot. This is the new axis of evil. You hear 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:47.840 it from figures like Senator Mitch McConnell, 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:50.279 Speaker Mike Johnson. They're using it to describe 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:52.820 the alignment of China, Russia, Iran and North 00:08:52.820 --> 00:08:55.019 Korea. But this is where we really have to slow 00:08:55.019 --> 00:08:57.659 down and analyze the structure. Right. The original 00:08:57.659 --> 00:09:00.200 axis was defined by weakness and isolation. Yes. 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:03.139 Iran and Iraq were contained. This new axis, 00:09:03.299 --> 00:09:06.309 though. China is an economic superpower. Russia 00:09:06.309 --> 00:09:09.070 is a nuclear giant. This isn't just a list of 00:09:09.070 --> 00:09:11.409 countries we don't like. This feels like a genuine 00:09:11.409 --> 00:09:14.830 rival bloc. That's the critical difference. The 00:09:14.830 --> 00:09:18.230 new axis argument suggests a level of interdependence 00:09:18.230 --> 00:09:21.269 that just didn't exist in 2002. I mean, look 00:09:21.269 --> 00:09:23.250 at the war in Ukraine. You have Iranian drones 00:09:23.250 --> 00:09:26.210 being used by the Russian military. You have 00:09:26.210 --> 00:09:28.269 North Korea shipping artillery shells to the 00:09:28.269 --> 00:09:31.149 front lines. You have China providing the economic 00:09:31.149 --> 00:09:33.809 lifeline that's keeping the Russian economy afloat 00:09:33.809 --> 00:09:36.610 despite all the sanctions. So unlike that marriage 00:09:36.610 --> 00:09:38.950 of convenience from described, where Germany 00:09:38.950 --> 00:09:42.629 and Japan barely talked, these guys are actually 00:09:42.629 --> 00:09:44.409 trading hardware. They're keeping each other's 00:09:44.409 --> 00:09:47.389 economies alive. It's become transactional. And 00:09:47.389 --> 00:09:49.919 it's strategic. British General Sir Patrick Sanders 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:52.899 just made this point in July of 2024, arguing 00:09:52.899 --> 00:09:56.240 this new quartet is actually more interdependent 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.720 and more aligned than the original Axis powers 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:01.379 of World War II ever were. That is, that is a 00:10:01.379 --> 00:10:03.340 terrifying thought. The idea that we've gone 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:06.379 from containing isolated rogue states to facing 00:10:06.379 --> 00:10:08.639 a coordinated nuclear armed flock. But we have 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.299 to be careful with the label. Are they an Axis 00:10:11.299 --> 00:10:13.879 in an ideological sense? Does China really share 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:16.580 a worldview with the theocracy in Tehran? Probably 00:10:16.580 --> 00:10:20.429 not. No. China wants global stability for trade. 00:10:20.629 --> 00:10:24.210 Iran often thrives on asymmetric chaos. Russia 00:10:24.210 --> 00:10:26.710 wants to rebuild an empire. North Korea just 00:10:26.710 --> 00:10:28.970 wants regime survival. So it's still a marriage 00:10:28.970 --> 00:10:30.909 of convenience, just a much more dangerous one. 00:10:31.029 --> 00:10:33.649 They're united by what they're against American 00:10:33.649 --> 00:10:36.669 power, not what they're for. Exactly. But the 00:10:36.669 --> 00:10:39.909 danger of using the axis of evil term again is 00:10:39.909 --> 00:10:42.110 that it might have the exact same effect it had 00:10:42.110 --> 00:10:44.919 in 2002. It groups them together. If we treat 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:47.139 them as a monolith, we might just push them closer 00:10:47.139 --> 00:10:49.200 together. It's that self -fulfilling prophecy 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:51.779 all over again. You tell four guys in a bar that 00:10:51.779 --> 00:10:53.159 they're a gang, you're going to fight. Well, 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:54.960 they're probably going to start acting like a 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.759 gang. And that overlooks the opportunities to 00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:00.100 split them apart. I mean, real politic would 00:11:00.100 --> 00:11:02.419 suggest you try to peel China away from Russia, 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:05.100 not lump them together. But the Axis rhetoric, 00:11:05.179 --> 00:11:07.659 it just flattens all that nuance. It demands 00:11:07.659 --> 00:11:10.519 a crusade. OK, before we get too heavy on the... 00:11:11.540 --> 00:11:14.259 impending geopolitical doom. Right. We have to 00:11:14.259 --> 00:11:16.720 talk about how the phrase didn't just stay in 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:19.580 the Situation Room. It bled into pop culture 00:11:19.580 --> 00:11:22.460 in some really weird and interesting ways. It 00:11:22.460 --> 00:11:25.279 became a punchline almost instantly. When you 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:28.240 use language that's that high drama, comedians 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.340 are just going to feast on it. The Axis of Evil 00:11:30.340 --> 00:11:33.620 comedy tour was huge. Yeah. Mosh Dobrani. Ahmed 00:11:33.620 --> 00:11:36.159 Ahmed. Yeah. They took this terrifying label 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:38.899 and just defanged it through humor. It was a 00:11:38.899 --> 00:11:40.919 way for Middle Eastern communities to sort of 00:11:40.919 --> 00:11:43.120 process the demonization. But there was also 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.519 a softer side to the cultural reaction. There 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:48.320 was that Norwegian music project. Lullabies from 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:51.779 the axis of evil. Right. In 2003. They recorded 00:11:51.779 --> 00:11:54.940 women from Iran, Iraq and North Korea singing 00:11:54.940 --> 00:11:57.100 traditional lullabies to their babies. It was 00:11:57.100 --> 00:11:59.860 such a simple, subversive idea. You have the 00:11:59.860 --> 00:12:02.259 president saying these nations are evil with 00:12:02.259 --> 00:12:04.500 a capital E. And then you just hear a mother 00:12:04.500 --> 00:12:07.200 in Baghdad singing to her child. It forces you 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.700 to remember a nation isn't just its regime. It 00:12:09.700 --> 00:12:11.960 puts the humanity back. Exactly. And of course, 00:12:11.980 --> 00:12:14.539 the axis of weasels. The axis of weasels. That 00:12:14.539 --> 00:12:16.820 was aimed at France and Germany for not supporting 00:12:16.820 --> 00:12:20.080 the Iraq invasion. It just shows how that grammatical 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.879 structure. axis of blank became the template 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:25.299 for anything we didn't like. So to bring it all 00:12:25.299 --> 00:12:28.340 back, we started with the speechwriter in 2001 00:12:28.340 --> 00:12:32.279 trying to solve a puzzle. How to convince Americans 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:36.100 to worry about Iraq. He reaches for a WWII analogy. 00:12:36.340 --> 00:12:40.220 He swaps hatred for evil. And in doing so, he 00:12:40.220 --> 00:12:44.399 defines a decade of war and completely unintentionally 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:46.919 torpedoes this incredible moment of potential 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:50.120 peace with Iran. It's a profound lesson in the... 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:52.940 I guess the lethality of language. Words and 00:12:52.940 --> 00:12:54.779 foreign policy aren't just descriptions, they're 00:12:54.779 --> 00:12:57.659 actions. Calling a country evil isn't just name 00:12:57.659 --> 00:13:00.159 -calling, it's a policy decision. It sets a trajectory 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:02.580 that's incredibly hard to reverse. It really 00:13:02.580 --> 00:13:05.360 is. And now, as we hear new axes of evil being 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:07.779 thrown around about China and Russia, we have 00:13:07.779 --> 00:13:10.149 to ask ourselves, Are we describing a reality 00:13:10.149 --> 00:13:12.669 or are we creating one? That's the question, 00:13:12.750 --> 00:13:14.850 isn't it? Are we seeing a genuine coordination 00:13:14.850 --> 00:13:17.870 of evil or are we using a lazy historical analogy 00:13:17.870 --> 00:13:20.009 that blinds us to the very different motivations 00:13:20.009 --> 00:13:22.370 of each of those countries? Because if we treat 00:13:22.370 --> 00:13:24.269 them like a single monster. You might just ensure 00:13:24.269 --> 00:13:26.549 they become one. It's a lot to think about. The 00:13:26.549 --> 00:13:29.610 next time you hear a politician drop a catchy 00:13:29.610 --> 00:13:32.990 historical phrase, maybe check the footnotes. 00:13:33.549 --> 00:13:35.850 Thanks for diving in with us today. Always a 00:13:35.850 --> 00:13:36.029 pleasure.