WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.339 I have to admit, when I first saw the file for 00:00:02.339 --> 00:00:05.320 this, for this deep dive, I actually thought 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:08.960 it was a typo. I can see why. I mean, we look 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:11.140 at a lot of strange history, but statistically, 00:00:12.140 --> 00:00:14.220 this just shouldn't exist. You have a machine 00:00:14.220 --> 00:00:17.399 designed for one thing. To be infallible. Exactly. 00:00:17.399 --> 00:00:21.039 To end a life efficiently, and it fails not once. 00:00:21.140 --> 00:00:24.149 Not twice. But three times, all in the span of, 00:00:24.190 --> 00:00:26.429 what, 20 minutes? It sounds like an urban legend, 00:00:26.570 --> 00:00:28.390 doesn't it? I mean, if you wrote this in a movie 00:00:28.390 --> 00:00:30.609 script, the studio would send it back and say, 00:00:30.670 --> 00:00:33.109 come on, make it believable. Right, because in 00:00:33.109 --> 00:00:36.130 Victorian England, they didn't really do mistakes 00:00:36.130 --> 00:00:38.469 with this stuff. It was a science. It was a cold, 00:00:38.549 --> 00:00:41.490 calculated engineering process. The executioner 00:00:41.490 --> 00:00:43.590 we're going to talk about, James Berry, he thought 00:00:43.590 --> 00:00:45.530 of himself as a man of science. Right, he had 00:00:45.530 --> 00:00:48.270 formulas for the drop length and all that. Exactly, 00:00:48.409 --> 00:00:50.929 based on weight, height. So for the machine to 00:00:50.929 --> 00:00:54.679 just... blink three times. It goes beyond a simple 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:56.579 malfunction. It becomes, you know, folklore. 00:00:56.920 --> 00:01:00.060 And that is exactly what we are unpacking today. 00:01:00.299 --> 00:01:03.219 We're doing a deep dive into the life and the 00:01:03.219 --> 00:01:06.760 just incredibly stubborn survival of John Henry 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:09.519 George Lee. Better known as John Babacombe Lee. 00:01:09.640 --> 00:01:12.560 Or even better, the man they could not hang. 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:16.459 It's a title that has stuck for, what, over a 00:01:16.459 --> 00:01:18.680 century now? But what I love about this story 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:21.560 is that when you peel back the The miracle part 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:25.000 of it, you find this amazing cross -section of 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:28.959 Victorian justice, bad engineering, and a really 00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:31.599 surprising second act that most people just don't 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:33.420 know about. Oh, that's the part I'm most excited 00:01:33.420 --> 00:01:35.359 to get to. The where are they now part of this 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:37.859 story is just wild. It is. But before we get 00:01:37.859 --> 00:01:39.459 to the gallows, we have to talk about the man 00:01:39.459 --> 00:01:41.519 himself. Because usually when you hear a story 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:43.120 like this, you kind of assume the person was 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:44.840 innocent, right? That's the go -to narrative, 00:01:44.980 --> 00:01:47.219 isn't it? God saved him because he was innocent. 00:01:47.420 --> 00:01:51.030 Yeah. But the reality here is a lot. Much murkier. 00:01:51.189 --> 00:01:53.810 Much murkier. To get why he was there in the 00:01:53.810 --> 00:01:56.650 first place, we have to go back to 1884. We're 00:01:56.650 --> 00:01:58.989 in Babacombe Bay near Torquay. In Devon, right. 00:01:59.109 --> 00:02:02.670 Beautiful coastal area. Beautiful, quiet. And 00:02:02.670 --> 00:02:05.849 John Lee is a 20 -year -old footman working for 00:02:05.849 --> 00:02:09.030 an elderly woman named Emma Keys. And this wasn't 00:02:09.030 --> 00:02:11.030 exactly a happy household from what I've read. 00:02:11.150 --> 00:02:14.530 No, it was tense. Emma Keys was wealthy. She 00:02:14.530 --> 00:02:18.129 was religious, very strict. And Lee was. Well, 00:02:18.150 --> 00:02:20.189 Lee was a bit of a loose cannon. Okay. He'd been 00:02:20.189 --> 00:02:22.490 in the Royal Navy but was discharged. And he 00:02:22.490 --> 00:02:25.009 had a history of theft. He'd actually done time 00:02:25.009 --> 00:02:27.569 for stealing silverware from a previous employer. 00:02:27.870 --> 00:02:29.689 So he's already got a rap sheet. Not a good look. 00:02:29.870 --> 00:02:32.310 Not at all. And then on the morning of November 00:02:32.310 --> 00:02:36.330 15, 1884, the house is found on fire. And when 00:02:36.330 --> 00:02:39.289 the smoke clears? They find Emma Keyes. And it 00:02:39.289 --> 00:02:41.169 wasn't the fire that killed her. She'd been brutally 00:02:41.169 --> 00:02:43.270 murdered. Her throat was cut. She had head wounds. 00:02:43.449 --> 00:02:45.840 It was an incredibly violent attack. And the 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:47.719 police probably didn't have to look too far for 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.099 a suspect. They didn't look far at all. Lee was 00:02:50.099 --> 00:02:53.599 the only male in the house. In 1884, that alone 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:55.580 was practically enough to close the case. But 00:02:55.580 --> 00:02:58.300 there was more, right? Oh, yeah. He had an unexplained 00:02:58.300 --> 00:03:00.759 cut on his arm. He claimed he got a breaking 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:03.139 a window to get to the fire, but the glass was 00:03:03.139 --> 00:03:06.139 found outside the window, not inside. Ugh, the 00:03:06.139 --> 00:03:09.379 physics of broken glass. Always a giveaway. Always. 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:12.280 And then there was motive. Kesey had recently 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:14.680 cut his wages, which were already low. And she 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:17.120 was threatening to fire him. So you have a disgruntled 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:19.580 employee with a criminal record of violent temper 00:03:19.580 --> 00:03:21.960 opportunity. It's an open and shut case for a 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:23.860 Victorian jury. But I have to ask, was there 00:03:23.860 --> 00:03:26.460 any hard evidence? I mean, no DNA, no fingerprints. 00:03:26.620 --> 00:03:29.680 It was entirely circumstantial. Nobody saw him 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:32.840 do it. No murder weapon was ever. you know, forensically 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:35.340 linked to him. If you tried that case today, 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:37.919 a good defense lawyer might get reasonable doubt. 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:40.680 But this was 1884. This was 1884. You're the 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:42.639 help. The mistress is dead. You've got a cut 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:45.379 on your arm. You're going down. He was convicted 00:03:45.379 --> 00:03:48.139 quickly. Okay. But I think you wanted to flag 00:03:48.139 --> 00:03:49.759 something here because it kind of changes how 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:52.020 we view the whole miracle thing. Right. Yeah. 00:03:52.139 --> 00:03:54.740 This is really important. In 2021, the BBC has 00:03:54.740 --> 00:03:57.680 a show, Murder Mystery and My Family. Oh, I've 00:03:57.680 --> 00:03:59.939 seen that. They get modern barristers to re -examine 00:03:59.939 --> 00:04:03.000 old cases. That's the one. And they looked at 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:05.300 all the original evidence for John Lee's case. 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:09.939 Their conclusion. The verdict was safe. They 00:04:09.939 --> 00:04:12.180 believe he almost certainly did it. So just to 00:04:12.180 --> 00:04:14.659 be crystal clear for everyone listening, the 00:04:14.659 --> 00:04:17.660 man we are about to see saved by fate is, in 00:04:17.660 --> 00:04:20.399 all likelihood, a brutal murderer. That seems 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:22.480 to be the uncomfortable reality, yeah. Which 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:25.600 makes what happens next even more baffling. Completely. 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.180 Okay, let's go to the day. February 23rd, 1885. 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:33.230 Exeter Prison. The executioner is James Berry. 00:04:33.430 --> 00:04:35.329 He mentioned he was a pro. He was far from some 00:04:35.329 --> 00:04:37.750 hooded thug. James Berry was a celebrity in his 00:04:37.750 --> 00:04:40.250 own right. He wrote memoirs. He was a businessman. 00:04:40.410 --> 00:04:43.110 He prided himself on the quote unquote humane 00:04:43.110 --> 00:04:46.069 hand. He was meticulous. Incredibly. So he gets 00:04:46.069 --> 00:04:48.149 to Exeter Prison and he checks the equipment 00:04:48.149 --> 00:04:51.329 thoroughly. He tests the trap door with sandbags 00:04:51.329 --> 00:04:53.889 that weigh the same as Lee. Works perfectly. 00:04:54.300 --> 00:04:56.579 The doors swing open. The bags drop. He tests 00:04:56.579 --> 00:04:59.139 it again just to be sure. Perfect. So the stage 00:04:59.139 --> 00:05:01.480 is set. It's raining. It's cold. They bring Lee 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:03.579 out. He's strapped. The white cap goes over his 00:05:03.579 --> 00:05:05.800 head. The noose is adjusted. Yeah. Barry pulls 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:07.819 the lever. Nothing. The bolt draws back with 00:05:07.819 --> 00:05:09.660 a thud, but the doors don't fall. They're just 00:05:09.660 --> 00:05:13.839 stuck. Solid. Now, in a movie, this is where 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:16.120 the crowd gasps and the governor steps in, but 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:18.019 that's not what happened, is it? Not even close. 00:05:18.180 --> 00:05:20.939 It was just chaos. Yeah. The warders are confused. 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:24.399 Lee is still standing there, hooded. Probably 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:27.079 terrified out of his mind, they hustle him off 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:30.259 the trap door. And then they start doing DIY 00:05:30.259 --> 00:05:33.319 on the gallows. You're kidding me. While he's 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:35.160 watching. While he's standing a few feet away, 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:38.399 Barry is furious. He's literally stomping on 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.379 the doors trying to loosen them. You get an axe 00:05:40.379 --> 00:05:43.360 and a saw. A saw? Yes. They are planing down 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:45.480 the edges of the wood, thinking maybe the damp 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:48.029 weather made the timber swell up. That is a level 00:05:48.029 --> 00:05:49.930 of psychological torture I just can't process. 00:05:50.009 --> 00:05:52.029 You're listening to them saw the machine that's 00:05:52.029 --> 00:05:54.410 supposed to kill you. It's horrific. So they 00:05:54.410 --> 00:05:56.470 think they fixed it. They test it again without 00:05:56.470 --> 00:05:59.629 Lee on it. The doors fall open. Boom. Works fine. 00:05:59.810 --> 00:06:01.509 So they put him back on. They put him back on. 00:06:01.569 --> 00:06:04.189 Attempt number two. Barry pulls the lever. And 00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:08.430 stuck. Again? Again. The doors move maybe an 00:06:08.430 --> 00:06:11.550 inch and then just lock up tight. At this point, 00:06:11.569 --> 00:06:13.810 the tension must have been just unbearable. Oh, 00:06:13.829 --> 00:06:16.029 absolutely. The prison chaplain was apparently 00:06:16.029 --> 00:06:18.649 on the verge of fainting. The medical officer 00:06:18.649 --> 00:06:22.209 is getting visibly agitated. But the law is the 00:06:22.209 --> 00:06:25.610 law. The warrant says hang the man until dead. 00:06:26.089 --> 00:06:28.089 So they're going to try again. Believe it or 00:06:28.089 --> 00:06:30.329 not, they try a third time. Three times. And 00:06:30.329 --> 00:06:33.290 the same result. The trap door refuses to open 00:06:33.290 --> 00:06:36.410 when John Lee is standing on it. So what happens? 00:06:36.689 --> 00:06:38.370 Finally, the medical officer just steps in and 00:06:38.370 --> 00:06:42.300 says, stop. He refuses to let it continue. He 00:06:42.300 --> 00:06:45.519 effectively overrules everyone. They take a very 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:48.180 much alive John Lee back to his cell. OK, we 00:06:48.180 --> 00:06:50.079 have to pause here and get into the how, because 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:53.160 a trapdoor is not a complicated machine. It's 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.879 just hinges and gravity. Right. Why did it work 00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:59.560 for the sandbags, but not for John Lee? This 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:01.139 is where the official investigation comes in. 00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:03.220 The home office was, you know, deeply embarrassed 00:07:03.220 --> 00:07:05.420 by this. So they sent an architect to figure 00:07:05.420 --> 00:07:08.160 it out. And what did the architect find? It all 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:10.800 comes down to the drawbar and the frame. See, 00:07:10.899 --> 00:07:12.939 the gallows had been moved from the prison infirmary 00:07:12.939 --> 00:07:15.540 to the coach house just for this hanging. And 00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:17.759 when they reassembled it, the frame was slightly 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:20.279 twisted, just a little out of alignment. Like 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:22.300 when you hang a door badly in your house and 00:07:22.300 --> 00:07:25.620 it sticks. Exactly that. It was subtle. So when 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:28.339 the drawbar, the metal bolt holding the doors 00:07:28.339 --> 00:07:30.680 up, was pulled, the hinges were supposed to swing 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:34.240 down. But because the frame was warped, The hinges 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:36.620 were binding against the frame. But wait a minute. 00:07:36.699 --> 00:07:39.139 Why did the sandbags work? They weighed the same 00:07:39.139 --> 00:07:41.660 as Lee. That is the million -dollar question. 00:07:42.060 --> 00:07:44.500 And the best theory is about the difference between 00:07:44.500 --> 00:07:47.420 live weight and dead weight. Okay. A sandbag 00:07:47.420 --> 00:07:49.519 is just dead weight. It sits in the center of 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:53.660 the trapdoor, a compact mass. John Lee was a 00:07:53.660 --> 00:07:55.839 person. He was standing, straddling the seam 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:58.420 between the two doors. And he was probably rigid 00:07:58.420 --> 00:08:01.240 with terror. Tensing every single muscle. pushing 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.860 back with his feet. The theory is that his specific 00:08:03.860 --> 00:08:06.819 stance, his rigid posture pushing outward toward 00:08:06.819 --> 00:08:09.120 the edges, created just enough extra friction 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:11.660 against that warped frame to lock the whole mechanism. 00:08:11.939 --> 00:08:14.560 So his own fear, the act of him tensing up, might 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:17.120 have physically saved his life. It's very likely. 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.500 If he'd gone limp or fainted, the weight might 00:08:20.500 --> 00:08:22.220 have shifted to the center and the doors would 00:08:22.220 --> 00:08:24.600 have dropped. He literally stood his ground against 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.300 gravity. That is... That's just wild. It's just 00:08:28.300 --> 00:08:30.180 physics, but it feels like something else entirely. 00:08:30.699 --> 00:08:32.940 It does. Now, I know there was another theory, 00:08:33.100 --> 00:08:35.580 the sabotage theory. That one sounds a lot more 00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:37.679 exciting. Oh, it's much more cinematic. This 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:39.899 theory came from a writer named Ernest Bowen 00:08:39.899 --> 00:08:42.980 Rawlins. He claimed that another prisoner, one 00:08:42.980 --> 00:08:45.919 who helped to build the scaffold, secretly inserted 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.480 a small wooden wedge into the mechanism. A wedge, 00:08:49.659 --> 00:08:52.720 like a doorstop. Basically, yeah. And the story 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:54.480 goes that this prisoner would slip the wedge 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.700 in. only when Lee was on the scaffold and then 00:08:57.700 --> 00:08:59.519 secretly pull it out when they were testing it. 00:08:59.580 --> 00:09:02.919 That sounds incredibly risky. I mean, Berry and 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:05.539 the sheriff are standing right there. And that's 00:09:05.539 --> 00:09:07.860 why most historians reject it. James Berry was 00:09:07.860 --> 00:09:10.159 meticulous. The idea that someone could sneak 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:12.500 a wedge in and out three separate times without 00:09:12.500 --> 00:09:15.700 being seen, it's highly, highly unlikely. It's 00:09:15.700 --> 00:09:18.899 a good story, though. It's a great story. But 00:09:18.899 --> 00:09:21.950 the boring truth is probably the right one. It 00:09:21.950 --> 00:09:24.850 was the banality of bad carpentry that saved 00:09:24.850 --> 00:09:27.929 him. So the execution is called off. Lee's back 00:09:27.929 --> 00:09:30.789 in his cell. What happens legally? Can't they 00:09:30.789 --> 00:09:33.070 just fix the gallows and try again the next day? 00:09:33.809 --> 00:09:35.970 Legally, they could have. The warrant was still 00:09:35.970 --> 00:09:37.850 valid. But you have to think about the Victorian 00:09:37.850 --> 00:09:40.950 mindset. They could be brutal, but they were 00:09:40.950 --> 00:09:43.830 also deeply superstitious and obsessed with public 00:09:43.830 --> 00:09:46.230 decency. And three failures in a row looks a 00:09:46.230 --> 00:09:49.100 lot like divine intervention. Exactly. The news 00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:51.600 spread like wildfire. The public was already 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:53.539 saying it was the hand of God. It would have 00:09:53.539 --> 00:09:55.460 been a PR nightmare for the government to drag 00:09:55.460 --> 00:09:56.820 him out a fourth time. It would look like they 00:09:56.820 --> 00:09:58.879 were fighting God. So the home secretary has 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:02.320 to step in. Sir William Harcourt, yes. He commutes 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:04.940 the sentence to life imprisonment. He basically 00:10:04.940 --> 00:10:07.080 says, look, we tried to kill him. It didn't work. 00:10:07.220 --> 00:10:10.039 Let's just lock him up forever. And so Lee goes 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:15.019 to prison for a long, long time. 22 years. He 00:10:15.019 --> 00:10:17.460 was a modern prisoner, apparently. And he keeps 00:10:17.460 --> 00:10:19.740 petitioning for his release, year after year, 00:10:19.899 --> 00:10:22.639 arguing he already paid for his crime on the 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:25.639 scaffold. And eventually, they let him go. Finally, 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:28.600 in 1907, the government gives in. They release 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:30.419 him. Okay, and this is where the story usually 00:10:30.419 --> 00:10:33.440 ends, right? John Lee was released and faded 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:36.159 into obscurity. But that's not what happened 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:38.720 at all. Not even close. This is where the story 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.580 gets its second wind. For decades, everyone thought 00:10:41.580 --> 00:10:44.179 he died poor in a workhouse in Tavistock during 00:10:44.179 --> 00:10:47.779 World War II. It was a neat, tragic ending. But 00:10:47.779 --> 00:10:51.519 that was wrong. Completely wrong. About 20 years 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.419 ago, a couple of researchers, Holgate and Waugh, 00:10:54.419 --> 00:10:57.019 really started digging. And they found out John 00:10:57.019 --> 00:10:59.639 Lee didn't fade away. He went on tour. He did. 00:10:59.740 --> 00:11:01.820 He cashed in on his fame. He was the man they 00:11:01.820 --> 00:11:04.299 could not hang. He gave lectures, stood on stage, 00:11:04.419 --> 00:11:06.980 and told his story over and over. He made money. 00:11:07.529 --> 00:11:09.289 There was even a silent film made about him. 00:11:09.389 --> 00:11:11.850 Talk about monetizing your trauma. You said it. 00:11:12.029 --> 00:11:14.629 But then around 1911, he does disappear from 00:11:14.629 --> 00:11:16.649 the British records. And this is where the new 00:11:16.649 --> 00:11:18.889 research dropped the bombshell. He didn't die 00:11:18.889 --> 00:11:21.090 in a workhouse. He got on a boat. And where did 00:11:21.090 --> 00:11:24.049 he go? The United States. He didn't just visit. 00:11:24.250 --> 00:11:29.309 He settled. Let me guess. New York. Los Angeles. 00:11:29.789 --> 00:11:32.049 Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Get out of here. Milwaukee. 00:11:33.309 --> 00:11:36.389 Of all the places for a Victorian folk legend 00:11:36.389 --> 00:11:39.870 to end his days. He left his wife and kids behind 00:11:39.870 --> 00:11:42.850 in England, which is a whole other side to his 00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:45.330 character, and started a completely new life 00:11:45.330 --> 00:11:47.570 in the American Midwest under the name James 00:11:47.570 --> 00:11:50.509 Lee. Did anyone there know who he was? It seems 00:11:50.509 --> 00:11:52.929 like almost nobody knew. He worked for an automotive 00:11:52.929 --> 00:11:55.289 company, lived a quiet life. He was just this 00:11:55.289 --> 00:11:57.409 old British guy with a past he didn't talk about. 00:11:57.679 --> 00:11:59.580 This blows my mind. He's living in Milwaukee 00:11:59.580 --> 00:12:01.720 through the Roaring Twenties, the Great Depression, 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:06.419 World War II. He lived until 1945. He was 80 00:12:06.419 --> 00:12:08.899 years old when he died. Think about that. He 00:12:08.899 --> 00:12:11.360 was born in the age of public hangs and he died 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.000 in the age of the atomic bomb. And they actually 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.179 found his grave. They did in 2009. He's buried 00:12:16.179 --> 00:12:18.340 in Forest Home Cemetery in Milwaukee, it's confirmed. 00:12:18.580 --> 00:12:20.559 Yeah. The man who was supposed to die at 20. 00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:23.539 lived another 60 years because a wooden frame 00:12:23.539 --> 00:12:26.860 was twisted by a few millimeters it really recontextualizes 00:12:26.860 --> 00:12:29.580 him he's not just a victim of fate he's a survivor 00:12:29.580 --> 00:12:32.460 and maybe a bit of a con man too leaving his 00:12:32.460 --> 00:12:35.539 family behind to start over it definitely complicates 00:12:35.539 --> 00:12:39.200 the simple folk hero narrative and yet popular 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:42.539 culture still loves that narrative the band the 00:12:42.539 --> 00:12:45.159 men they couldn't hang, the Fairport Convention 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:47.740 album, Babacombe Lee. We just love the story 00:12:47.740 --> 00:12:50.100 of the guy who beat the system. Even if the system 00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:52.220 was trying to punish him for a murder he likely 00:12:52.220 --> 00:12:54.519 committed. That's the tension, isn't it? If that 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:56.700 trap door had opened, John Lee would just be 00:12:56.700 --> 00:12:59.600 a statistic, a name in a dusty ledger. Because 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:02.340 it stuck, he became a legend. It really brings 00:13:02.340 --> 00:13:04.139 up an uncomfortable question, and it's what I 00:13:04.139 --> 00:13:05.980 want to leave our listeners with today. We've 00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:08.120 spent this whole time fascinated by his escape. 00:13:08.419 --> 00:13:10.820 We find ourselves rooting for him. Right. You 00:13:10.820 --> 00:13:14.429 want him to live. But why? If he really did kill 00:13:14.429 --> 00:13:16.250 Emma Keyes, and the evidence suggests he did, 00:13:16.470 --> 00:13:19.549 why does surviving the punishment somehow absolve 00:13:19.549 --> 00:13:22.110 the crime in our imagination? Why does a simple 00:13:22.110 --> 00:13:24.309 mechanical failure feel like a kind of redemption? 00:13:24.730 --> 00:13:27.470 That is the ultimate question. Is justice about 00:13:27.470 --> 00:13:30.789 the process or the outcome? And when the process 00:13:30.789 --> 00:13:33.549 fails so spectacularly, does the original crime 00:13:33.549 --> 00:13:35.809 even matter to us anymore? Something for you 00:13:35.809 --> 00:13:38.009 to think about next time you have a sticky door 00:13:38.009 --> 00:13:42.059 in your house. Just remember... That same simple 00:13:42.059 --> 00:13:45.700 physics saved a man's life. And sent him to Milwaukee. 00:13:45.740 --> 00:13:47.980 And sent him to Milwaukee. Thanks for diving 00:13:47.980 --> 00:13:50.220 deep with us today. Always a pleasure. We'll 00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:51.539 catch you on the next one. Stay curious.