WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.759 Let's get it on. It's just four words, four like 00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:06.160 really simple words. But if you've been watching 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:08.939 sports or honestly even just flipping through 00:00:08.939 --> 00:00:11.580 channels any time in the last, what, 30 years? 00:00:11.779 --> 00:00:14.419 Oh, at least. That phrase, it does something 00:00:14.419 --> 00:00:18.600 to you. It physically gets a reaction. Your heart 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:21.559 rate picks up. It's the starting gun. It's the 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:24.559 Pavlovian bell for controlled violence. It's 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:27.780 this signal that all the talking, all the promotion, 00:00:28.019 --> 00:00:31.030 all the pre -fight hype. Yeah. It's over. It's 00:00:31.030 --> 00:00:33.009 over. The cage door is locked. And it's time 00:00:33.009 --> 00:00:35.829 to go. Exactly. And the man who owns that phrase, 00:00:35.950 --> 00:00:38.250 I mean, he owns it. The man who shouted it from 00:00:38.250 --> 00:00:40.689 the center of the octagon for decades is who 00:00:40.689 --> 00:00:43.009 we are talking about today. We are doing a deep 00:00:43.009 --> 00:00:45.689 dive into the absolute legend of John Michael 00:00:45.689 --> 00:00:48.429 McCarthy, who the entire world just knows as 00:00:48.429 --> 00:00:50.549 Big John. And look, just calling him a referee 00:00:50.549 --> 00:00:52.210 feels, I don't know, it feels like a massive 00:00:52.210 --> 00:00:54.109 undersell, doesn't it? It totally does. Like 00:00:54.109 --> 00:00:56.570 calling Steve Jobs a salesman. I mean, yeah, 00:00:56.649 --> 00:00:58.270 he sold the product, but he also kind of invented 00:00:58.270 --> 00:01:01.549 the entire category. McCarthy is that for MMA 00:01:01.549 --> 00:01:03.810 officiating. That is a perfect way to put it, 00:01:03.829 --> 00:01:05.430 because that's what we found when we started 00:01:05.430 --> 00:01:07.430 digging into the source material for this. You 00:01:07.430 --> 00:01:09.890 know, looking at his autobiography, career stats, 00:01:10.170 --> 00:01:13.189 media appearances, all of it. It became so clear 00:01:13.189 --> 00:01:16.650 so fast that John McCarthy isn't just a guy who 00:01:16.650 --> 00:01:19.870 participated in MMA history. No. He's a foundational 00:01:19.870 --> 00:01:23.090 architect. He helped lay the literal groundwork 00:01:23.090 --> 00:01:25.269 for the sport as we know it today. And that's 00:01:25.269 --> 00:01:27.170 the. mission for this deep dive, right? We're 00:01:27.170 --> 00:01:29.349 going to explore that architecture. We want to 00:01:29.349 --> 00:01:32.129 understand how a former LAPD officer, a beat 00:01:32.129 --> 00:01:36.790 cop, goes from that world into the, let's call 00:01:36.790 --> 00:01:39.329 it the Wild West of the early UFC. The human 00:01:39.329 --> 00:01:41.689 cockfighting era, as it was famously called. 00:01:41.810 --> 00:01:43.950 Exactly. And not just how he got there, but how 00:01:43.950 --> 00:01:46.950 he became the guy who basically saved the sport 00:01:46.950 --> 00:01:49.329 from itself by dragging it, sometimes kicking 00:01:49.329 --> 00:01:51.730 and screaming, toward a set of rules. And then 00:01:51.730 --> 00:01:53.620 we've got to talk about the second act. Because 00:01:53.620 --> 00:01:56.219 for Big John, retirement didn't mean, you know, 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:58.620 taking up golf. It meant moving from inside the 00:01:58.620 --> 00:02:01.420 cage to the commentary booth and the podcasting 00:02:01.420 --> 00:02:04.079 world, which creates this entirely new dynamic. 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:06.620 Oh, it changes everything. When the enforcer 00:02:06.620 --> 00:02:08.659 becomes the analyst, the person who wrote the 00:02:08.659 --> 00:02:10.400 laws becomes the chief critic of how they're 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:13.039 applied. The whole conversation around the sport 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:15.419 shifts. It really does. Yeah, this is going to 00:02:15.419 --> 00:02:17.080 be a good one. We've got a lot of ground to cover. 00:02:17.139 --> 00:02:19.620 We are diving deep into the life, the career, 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:22.840 and the massive legacy of the third man in the 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:25.099 cage. Let's get it on. I knew you were going 00:02:25.099 --> 00:02:28.000 to say that. I was waiting for it. Okay, so let's 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:30.060 start with the most obvious thing. The thing 00:02:30.060 --> 00:02:33.240 you see before you hear anything else. His size. 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:38.080 His size. The nickname Big John. is uh not an 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.039 exaggeration not even a little bit i mean you 00:02:40.039 --> 00:02:42.199 just look at the stats the source material has 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:44.039 them listed at six foot three so that's about 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:48.020 1 .91 meters and that's tall for sure yeah but 00:02:48.020 --> 00:02:50.120 it's the weight that's the real factor here right 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:55.509 265 pounds yeah 120 kilograms okay so 265. Let's 00:02:55.509 --> 00:02:56.949 put that in perspective for anyone listening 00:02:56.949 --> 00:02:59.090 who maybe doesn't follow the UFC weight classes 00:02:59.090 --> 00:03:02.530 super closely. That is the absolute hardline 00:03:02.530 --> 00:03:04.710 upper limit for the heavyweight division. That's 00:03:04.710 --> 00:03:07.710 it. If he weighed 266, he would be a super heavyweight, 00:03:07.750 --> 00:03:10.469 a division that doesn't even exist in most major 00:03:10.469 --> 00:03:14.370 promotions anymore. He is, by definition, the 00:03:14.370 --> 00:03:16.490 biggest you can be and still fight for the UFC 00:03:16.490 --> 00:03:18.689 heavyweight title. Which means he was almost 00:03:18.689 --> 00:03:20.849 always bigger than the guys he was officiating. 00:03:20.969 --> 00:03:23.490 Almost always. And this is so, so crucial. We 00:03:23.490 --> 00:03:26.270 have to talk about the physics of what a referee 00:03:26.270 --> 00:03:28.530 actually does in a fight. Because it's not a 00:03:28.530 --> 00:03:30.590 passive role, right? I think a lot of people 00:03:30.590 --> 00:03:32.490 might see it that way, like an umpire in baseball 00:03:32.490 --> 00:03:35.270 or a referee in basketball. You blow a whistle, 00:03:35.469 --> 00:03:38.770 but that's not it at all. Not at all. In combat 00:03:38.770 --> 00:03:41.229 sports, the referee is a physical participant. 00:03:41.740 --> 00:03:43.819 They are the emergency brake. They are the human 00:03:43.819 --> 00:03:46.439 shield. Think about it for a second. You have 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.300 two elite heavyweights. Let's say two monsters 00:03:49.300 --> 00:03:52.000 like Francis Ngannou and Derek Lewis. That's 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:55.159 over 500 pounds of human being. Exactly. 500 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:58.060 plus pounds of pure explosive muscle colliding. 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:01.080 Now, when a fight ends, especially with a knockout, 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:02.939 one guy is unconscious. The other guy is in a 00:04:02.939 --> 00:04:06.419 state of like pure adrenal overload. He's just 00:04:06.419 --> 00:04:08.840 been in a life or death struggle. His instinct 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:11.460 is to continue the threat elimination. The killer 00:04:11.460 --> 00:04:13.939 be killed mode hasn't shut off yet. It hasn't. 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:17.040 And someone has to physically stop him. Now, 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:20.779 if your referee is, say, 5 '9 and 170 pounds, 00:04:21.100 --> 00:04:23.060 what's he going to do? He's going to get thrown 00:04:23.060 --> 00:04:25.579 into the fence. He's a speed bump. He has no 00:04:25.579 --> 00:04:28.079 leverage, no mass to counter the fighter's momentum. 00:04:28.939 --> 00:04:32.439 But when John McCarthy at 265 pounds steps in 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:34.779 between a fighter and his downed opponent, he's 00:04:34.779 --> 00:04:37.279 an anchor. He's a wall of humanity. He can grab 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:39.459 a 250 -pound fighter and physically move him. 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:42.300 So his size wasn't just intimidating. It was 00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:44.839 a legitimate safety tool. It was a prerequisite 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:47.540 for the job, especially back then. In the early 00:04:47.540 --> 00:04:50.000 days, you know, the rules were looser. The fighters 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.740 were, frankly, less disciplined. You needed a 00:04:52.740 --> 00:04:54.860 sheriff in the cage who was bigger and stronger 00:04:54.860 --> 00:04:56.959 than the outlaws. Well, speaking of being the 00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.500 sheriff, the origin of that nickname, Big John, 00:04:59.779 --> 00:05:01.579 is one of my favorite stories. I always just 00:05:01.579 --> 00:05:04.040 assumed it was something the fans or commentators 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.040 came up with. No, it came from the top. From 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:09.290 the boss himself. From Art Davey. And for anyone 00:05:09.290 --> 00:05:11.230 who doesn't know the name, Art Davey was one 00:05:11.230 --> 00:05:13.709 of the co -founders, the original promoter of 00:05:13.709 --> 00:05:16.009 the UFC. He was the P .T. Barnum of the whole 00:05:16.009 --> 00:05:18.129 operation. The guy signing the checks. The guy 00:05:18.129 --> 00:05:20.850 signing the checks. And the story goes that very 00:05:20.850 --> 00:05:24.470 early on, we're talking 93, 94, there was some 00:05:24.470 --> 00:05:28.089 kind of disagreement or maybe just some alpha 00:05:28.089 --> 00:05:30.490 male horseplay happening. The source just says 00:05:30.490 --> 00:05:33.490 McCarthy forcibly lifted him. Which is such a 00:05:33.490 --> 00:05:35.750 polite way of putting it. It is. Just picture 00:05:35.750 --> 00:05:38.050 this scene. You've got the promoter, the head 00:05:38.050 --> 00:05:41.509 honcho, and McCarthy, who is basically security 00:05:41.509 --> 00:05:44.449 and an advisor at this point, just grabs him, 00:05:44.509 --> 00:05:47.329 lifts him completely off the ground, and just 00:05:47.329 --> 00:05:50.089 holds him there in the air. So Art Davey's feet 00:05:50.089 --> 00:05:52.389 are just dangling. Just dangling. And in that 00:05:52.389 --> 00:05:55.430 moment, the power dynamic is, let's say it's 00:05:55.430 --> 00:05:58.089 clarified. It's really hard to argue about payroll 00:05:58.089 --> 00:06:00.040 when you're not touching the floor. And that's 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:01.939 when Davey started calling him Big John. That 00:06:01.939 --> 00:06:04.500 was it. It was a name born out of playful respect, 00:06:04.660 --> 00:06:07.920 but also a very real submission to the physical 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:09.980 reality of the man. It wasn't a brand. It was 00:06:09.980 --> 00:06:12.329 a statement of fact. It really sets the tone 00:06:12.329 --> 00:06:14.449 for his whole career, doesn't it? That he wasn't 00:06:14.449 --> 00:06:17.209 just an employee, he was a presence, a force 00:06:17.209 --> 00:06:19.569 you had to reckon with. A non -negotiable presence, 00:06:19.850 --> 00:06:21.829 yeah. But, and this is the part that I think 00:06:21.829 --> 00:06:23.610 is so often overlooked, he wasn't just a big 00:06:23.610 --> 00:06:25.910 tough guy. He wasn't some bouncer they pulled 00:06:25.910 --> 00:06:28.269 off a door somewhere. His professional background 00:06:28.269 --> 00:06:30.990 is the key to everything. This is the absolute 00:06:30.990 --> 00:06:33.610 key to understanding his entire methodology as 00:06:33.610 --> 00:06:35.730 a referee. He wasn't just muscle, he was a cop. 00:06:35.990 --> 00:06:39.399 Los Angeles Police Department. LAPD. And not 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:41.939 just for a couple of years. This was his career. 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:45.879 It's his whole identity before MMA. And the timeline 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:48.740 here is just wild to me. The sources say he started 00:06:48.740 --> 00:06:52.240 refereeing for the UFC in 1994 at UFC 2. Right. 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.860 He didn't retire from the LAPD until around 2008. 00:06:55.339 --> 00:06:56.879 Whoa, whoa, wait. Let's just pause on that for 00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:00.399 a second. Are you saying that for 14 years? Basically, 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:03.300 the entire boom period of the UFC, from the Dark 00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:06.399 Ages to being on pay -per -view everywhere, the 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:09.319 most recognizable referee in the sport was also 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:11.519 a full -time police officer. It's unbelievable 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:13.779 when you think about it. On a Saturday night, 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:17.060 he's on television, broadcast to millions of 00:07:17.060 --> 00:07:20.980 people, breaking up a title fight between Tito 00:07:20.980 --> 00:07:23.819 Ortiz and Chuck Liddell. Right, this huge, high 00:07:23.819 --> 00:07:25.819 -pressure sporting event. And then Monday morning, 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:28.290 he's putting on a uniform. getting in a patrol 00:07:28.290 --> 00:07:31.269 car and dealing with domestic disputes, gang 00:07:31.269 --> 00:07:33.730 activity, traffic stops on the streets of Los 00:07:33.730 --> 00:07:36.569 Angeles. How much do you think that police training 00:07:36.569 --> 00:07:39.709 directly translated into his refereeing? Because 00:07:39.709 --> 00:07:40.970 when you lay it out like that, it feels like 00:07:40.970 --> 00:07:43.230 it's almost the same job, just in a different 00:07:43.230 --> 00:07:45.589 environment. It's a one -to -one transfer of 00:07:45.589 --> 00:07:48.370 skills. It's foundational. Think about what a 00:07:48.370 --> 00:07:51.610 good police officer has to do in a volatile situation. 00:07:51.990 --> 00:07:54.110 They call it command presence. Command presence. 00:07:54.410 --> 00:07:56.910 Right. You walk into a scene, it's total chaos. 00:07:56.939 --> 00:07:58.959 People are yelling. Adrenaline is through the 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:01.220 roof. The officer has to be the calmest, most 00:08:01.220 --> 00:08:03.879 in control person there. If the cop panics, the 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:06.240 whole situation explodes. You see that with McCarthy 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:09.279 in the cage, especially in those old crazy fights. 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:12.279 He never, ever looks rattled. He moves deliberately. 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:15.279 He's calm. He's assessing. He's using what they 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:17.519 call the Odea loop in law enforcement, in the 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:21.709 military. Observe, orient, decide, act. He's 00:08:21.709 --> 00:08:24.350 constantly scanning the fighters, observing their 00:08:24.350 --> 00:08:26.990 body language, orienting himself to the threat 00:08:26.990 --> 00:08:29.629 level, deciding if intervention is needed, and 00:08:29.629 --> 00:08:31.810 then acting decisively. The decision -making 00:08:31.810 --> 00:08:34.389 has to be instantaneous, and the stakes are so 00:08:34.389 --> 00:08:37.049 high. Incredibly high. It's the use of force 00:08:37.049 --> 00:08:40.309 continuum, but applied to a sport. As a cop, 00:08:40.549 --> 00:08:42.750 you learn to escalate your response only to the 00:08:42.750 --> 00:08:45.330 level necessary to neutralize a threat, and you 00:08:45.330 --> 00:08:47.779 de -escalate the second the threat is gone. That 00:08:47.779 --> 00:08:50.899 is precisely the job of an MNA ref. You let them 00:08:50.899 --> 00:08:52.799 fight right up until the point one person can 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:54.879 no longer intelligently defend themselves. And 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:57.539 at that exact moment, you intervene with absolute 00:08:57.539 --> 00:09:00.240 authority to prevent further harm. His entire 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:02.720 LAPD career was high -stakes threat assessment. 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:05.500 Refereeing a cage fight was just another day 00:09:05.500 --> 00:09:07.419 at the office, in a way. That explains why he 00:09:07.419 --> 00:09:09.360 was so good at it right out of the gate. And 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:12.320 thank God he was. Because we really need to paint 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:14.340 a picture of what the UFC was like when he first 00:09:14.340 --> 00:09:17.159 got there. We see it now. It's on ESPN. It's 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:20.139 sponsored by DraftKings. It's this polished global 00:09:20.139 --> 00:09:23.679 product. But in 1994. In 1994, it was basically 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.399 a back alley brawl with a TV camera. When McCarthy 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.730 refereed his first event, UFC 2. The slogan for 00:09:30.730 --> 00:09:33.450 the show was literally, there are no rules. Which 00:09:33.450 --> 00:09:35.309 is great for marketing, but absolutely terrifying 00:09:35.309 --> 00:09:37.950 from a safety and legal standpoint. It's a liability 00:09:37.950 --> 00:09:40.710 disaster class. The original concept wasn't a 00:09:40.710 --> 00:09:43.110 sport. It was a spectacle. It was a science experiment. 00:09:43.450 --> 00:09:46.809 Can a 400 -pound sumo wrestler beat a 190 -pound 00:09:46.809 --> 00:09:49.049 karate master? There were no weight classes. 00:09:49.250 --> 00:09:51.090 No gloves. No gloves, no time limits in some 00:09:51.090 --> 00:09:52.850 of the early fights. You could fight for 20, 00:09:52.909 --> 00:09:55.519 30 minutes straight. And the list of fouls was 00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:58.039 short. What was actually illegal back then? Biting 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:00.299 and eye gouging. That was about it. Groin strikes 00:10:00.299 --> 00:10:02.419 were perfectly legal. Yeah. Hair pulling was 00:10:02.419 --> 00:10:04.659 fine. Fish hooking was allowed. It was designed 00:10:04.659 --> 00:10:07.240 to be as brutal as possible. And McCarthy, with 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:09.840 his cop brain, takes one look at this whole circus 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:13.139 and immediately realizes this is not sustainable. 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:15.779 This is where he makes that jump, right? From 00:10:15.779 --> 00:10:18.139 just being the guy in the cage to being the architect. 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:20.639 Because another person might have just said, 00:10:20.779 --> 00:10:23.059 hey, not my problem. I'm just here to break them 00:10:23.059 --> 00:10:26.639 up. Exactly. But he didn't. He intervened. The 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:29.120 sources are clear on this. He went directly to 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:31.200 the UFC management, to Art Davey and Rory and 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:34.039 Gracie, and he essentially gave them a reality 00:10:34.039 --> 00:10:36.100 check from a law enforcement perspective. He 00:10:36.100 --> 00:10:38.059 laid down the law, so to speak. He literally 00:10:38.059 --> 00:10:41.559 did. He told them point blank, look, I'm a cop. 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:44.259 I've seen what aggravated assault looks like. 00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:47.710 I know what the law says. And if you keep running 00:10:47.710 --> 00:10:50.210 your show like this, someone is going to get 00:10:50.210 --> 00:10:52.529 killed in that cage. And when that happens. And 00:10:52.529 --> 00:10:55.049 when that happens, he told them, every single 00:10:55.049 --> 00:10:57.710 one of you is going to prison. And this whole 00:10:57.710 --> 00:11:00.230 thing is over. That must have been a very sobering 00:11:00.230 --> 00:11:02.850 conversation for them. It had to be. And that's 00:11:02.850 --> 00:11:05.429 where he starts pushing for change. And this, 00:11:05.429 --> 00:11:08.809 to me, is his greatest contribution to the sport. 00:11:08.990 --> 00:11:11.250 He didn't just enforce the rules someone else 00:11:11.250 --> 00:11:14.289 wrote. He was in the room helping to invent them. 00:11:14.539 --> 00:11:16.500 Starting with the most fundamental concept of 00:11:16.500 --> 00:11:19.340 all, the idea that a fight can be stopped by 00:11:19.340 --> 00:11:22.700 the referee. Yes, the technical knockout, the 00:11:22.700 --> 00:11:26.220 TKO. This was a revolutionary idea in that context. 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:28.659 In the original Gracie jiu -jitsu philosophy, 00:11:28.860 --> 00:11:31.860 which heavily influenced the early UFC, a fight 00:11:31.860 --> 00:11:34.679 only ended two ways. Submission, where a man 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:37.340 quits, or knockout, where a man is unconscious. 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:40.399 There's no concept of saving a fighter from himself. 00:11:40.620 --> 00:11:43.559 None. It was seen as dishonorable. But McCarthy 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:46.200 argued, from a safety and regulatory standpoint 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:49.100 that if a fighter is on the ground taking unanswered 00:11:49.100 --> 00:11:51.679 punches and can no longer intelligently defend 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:54.840 himself, the referee has a moral and legal obligation 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:57.769 to stop the fight. He basically invented the 00:11:57.769 --> 00:12:00.090 modern fight stoppage. He was the primary advocate 00:12:00.090 --> 00:12:02.250 for it. He saved countless fighters from career 00:12:02.250 --> 00:12:04.649 ending and potentially life -altering damage 00:12:04.649 --> 00:12:07.210 with that one philosophical shift. And it didn't 00:12:07.210 --> 00:12:09.250 stop there. He was pushing for everything, wasn't 00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:10.929 he? Everything. Weight classes so you don't have 00:12:10.929 --> 00:12:13.490 a 170 -pound guy fighting a 300 -pound guy. Time 00:12:13.490 --> 00:12:15.450 limits and rounds so fighters have a chance to 00:12:15.450 --> 00:12:17.889 recover. And a standardized expanded list of 00:12:17.889 --> 00:12:20.490 fouls. All of that work over many years eventually 00:12:20.490 --> 00:12:22.909 led to the creation of the document that governs 00:12:22.909 --> 00:12:25.919 all of modern MMA. The unified rules of mixed 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:28.360 martial arts. The unified rules. Yeah. Can we 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:30.460 break that down a bit? Because you hear that 00:12:30.460 --> 00:12:33.419 phrase on every broadcast, but I'm not sure everyone 00:12:33.419 --> 00:12:37.139 grasps why unified is the most important word 00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:39.840 in that title. It's everything. Before the unified 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:42.460 rules were adopted, it was chaos. You'd have 00:12:42.460 --> 00:12:45.240 one MMA show in Iowa where knees to the head 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:47.919 of a grounded opponent were legal. And then another 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:51.200 show in Japan where they were illegal, but head 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:52.879 stomps were fine. That was a different sport 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:54.980 depending on where you were. Completely. And 00:12:54.980 --> 00:12:57.379 because of that inconsistency, the major state 00:12:57.379 --> 00:12:59.240 athletic commissions in the U .S., especially 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:02.360 Nevada and New Jersey, which are the gatekeepers 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.519 for big time fighting. The ones that control 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.580 Las Vegas and Atlantic City. Exactly. They wouldn't 00:13:07.580 --> 00:13:09.519 sanction it. They saw it as too dangerous and 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:12.039 too disorganized. And if you can't get sanctioned, 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:14.779 you can't run shows in major arenas. You can't 00:13:14.779 --> 00:13:16.960 get on major television networks. You're stuck 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.299 on Native American reservations or in other countries. 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:22.710 You're a fringe sport. You're a fringe sport 00:13:22.710 --> 00:13:26.429 forever. McCarthy was one of the key figures 00:13:26.429 --> 00:13:28.950 who sat in those rooms with the athletic commissioners 00:13:28.950 --> 00:13:31.610 and hashed out a deal. He helped them write a 00:13:31.610 --> 00:13:33.970 rule book they could accept. He translated the 00:13:33.970 --> 00:13:36.190 chaos of the cage into a language the bureaucrats 00:13:36.190 --> 00:13:38.049 and lawyers could understand. So things like 00:13:38.049 --> 00:13:42.320 the controversial 12 to 6 elbow rule. That came 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:44.159 out of those meetings. It did. And that's a perfect 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:46.460 example. The 12 to 6 elbow where you can't bring 00:13:46.460 --> 00:13:48.259 your elbow straight down in a spiking motion 00:13:48.259 --> 00:13:51.580 is a weird rule. Most fighters and fans hate 00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:54.820 it. But McCarthy has explained that it was born 00:13:54.820 --> 00:13:58.250 out of a compromise. How so? The commissioners 00:13:58.250 --> 00:14:00.950 had seen these martial arts demonstrations where 00:14:00.950 --> 00:14:04.090 guys break stacks of ice blocks or concrete with 00:14:04.090 --> 00:14:06.250 that elbow strike, and they were terrified it 00:14:06.250 --> 00:14:08.490 would literally cave someone's skull in. The 00:14:08.490 --> 00:14:10.490 physics of it on a human head versus a block 00:14:10.490 --> 00:14:12.809 of ice are totally different, but they were spooked. 00:14:12.950 --> 00:14:15.409 So McCarthy and the others agreed to ban that 00:14:15.409 --> 00:14:17.509 specific motion to get the rest of the rulebook 00:14:17.509 --> 00:14:20.159 approved. Exactly. It was a political negotiation. 00:14:20.500 --> 00:14:22.500 And he was the perfect ambassador because he 00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:24.679 could speak both languages. He could talk to 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:26.860 the fighters about technique and then turn around 00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:28.419 and talk to the commissioners about liability 00:14:28.419 --> 00:14:31.500 and safety protocols. So it's not an exaggeration 00:14:31.500 --> 00:14:33.860 at all to say that without him in those rooms, 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:36.580 we might not have the UFC we have today? I don't 00:14:36.580 --> 00:14:38.080 think it's an exaggeration in the slightest. 00:14:38.340 --> 00:14:41.019 He gave the sport the legitimacy it needed to 00:14:41.019 --> 00:14:44.379 survive. He was the safety advocate inside a 00:14:44.379 --> 00:14:46.720 spectacle of violence. And all the while, as 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:48.539 he's building the sport behind the scenes, he's 00:14:48.539 --> 00:14:50.639 also building his own personal brand inside the 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:52.899 cage. We talked about the catchphrase, let's 00:14:52.899 --> 00:14:55.899 get it on. It just became iconic. It's incredible 00:14:55.899 --> 00:14:57.879 branding, whether it was intentional or not. 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.240 You know, boxing had Michael Buffer's let's get 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:04.450 ready to rumble. which was very operatic and 00:15:04.450 --> 00:15:07.370 grand. Right. Very formal. Very formal. McCarthy's 00:15:07.370 --> 00:15:10.029 was the opposite. It was gritty. It was simple. 00:15:10.230 --> 00:15:12.909 It was a command. It was the verbal equivalent 00:15:12.909 --> 00:15:15.250 of locking the cage door. There's a finality 00:15:15.250 --> 00:15:17.490 to it. All the ceremony is done. The fighters 00:15:17.490 --> 00:15:19.950 are introduced. The rules are given. And then 00:15:19.950 --> 00:15:22.029 he just points at them. And delivers the line. 00:15:22.669 --> 00:15:25.889 It became a ritual. We love rituals in sports. 00:15:26.090 --> 00:15:28.730 It tells our brains, OK, pay attention now. This 00:15:28.730 --> 00:15:31.090 is the moment it all starts. And that ritual, 00:15:31.169 --> 00:15:34.370 that brand became so powerful that it bled out 00:15:34.370 --> 00:15:36.629 of the sports world and into mainstream pop culture. 00:15:36.850 --> 00:15:39.389 This is the really fascinating crossover period. 00:15:40.129 --> 00:15:43.690 Because John McCarthy somehow became Hollywood's 00:15:43.690 --> 00:15:46.549 official stamp of authenticity for cage fighting. 00:15:46.809 --> 00:15:48.830 What do you mean by that, a stamp of authenticity? 00:15:49.350 --> 00:15:50.970 Well, think about it from a director's perspective 00:15:50.970 --> 00:15:53.789 in the late 90s or early 2000s. You're making 00:15:53.789 --> 00:15:56.350 a movie or a TV show, and you have a scene that 00:15:56.350 --> 00:15:59.549 involves ultimate fighting. If you just hire 00:15:59.549 --> 00:16:02.230 some big actor to play the referee, it's going 00:16:02.230 --> 00:16:04.009 to look fake to anyone who actually follows the 00:16:04.009 --> 00:16:06.450 sport. The hardcore fans will call it out. Instantly. 00:16:06.549 --> 00:16:09.350 But if you get the actual big John McCarthy to 00:16:09.350 --> 00:16:12.330 be in your scene, you're buying instant credibility. 00:16:12.909 --> 00:16:15.690 His presence tells the audience, we did our homework. 00:16:15.889 --> 00:16:18.610 This is the real deal. He anchors the fictional 00:16:18.610 --> 00:16:21.110 scene in a very real world. Which is how he ends 00:16:21.110 --> 00:16:23.049 up on one of the biggest sitcoms of all time. 00:16:23.210 --> 00:16:25.990 Friends. The one with the ultimate fighting champion. 00:16:26.330 --> 00:16:29.210 It's a classic. John Favreau's character, the 00:16:29.210 --> 00:16:31.250 millionaire Pete Becker, decides he wants to 00:16:31.250 --> 00:16:33.990 become the ultimate fighting champion. And when 00:16:33.990 --> 00:16:36.370 he steps into the cage for his first brutal, 00:16:36.450 --> 00:16:38.889 disastrous fight, who's standing there? Big John 00:16:38.889 --> 00:16:41.190 giving him the pre -fight instructions. It's 00:16:41.190 --> 00:16:43.750 such a surreal collision of worlds. You have 00:16:43.750 --> 00:16:46.029 the cast of Friends, which was the epitome of 00:16:46.029 --> 00:16:50.309 safe, mainstream coffee shop television. And 00:16:50.309 --> 00:16:53.990 you have the brutal, bloody world of... early 00:16:53.990 --> 00:16:56.929 no -holds -barred MMA, and McCarthy's the bridge 00:16:56.929 --> 00:16:59.190 connecting them. It legitimized the sport to 00:16:59.190 --> 00:17:01.049 a massive audience that probably thought it was 00:17:01.049 --> 00:17:03.309 just some underground thuggery. It did. And you 00:17:03.309 --> 00:17:05.589 see it again in Entourage, season three. Again, 00:17:05.789 --> 00:17:07.970 Entourage was a show that prided itself on its 00:17:07.970 --> 00:17:10.329 Hollywood insider authenticity. They used real 00:17:10.329 --> 00:17:12.529 actors, real directors, real locations. So when 00:17:12.529 --> 00:17:14.750 they did a storyline about a fighter, of course 00:17:14.750 --> 00:17:16.289 they had to have the real referee. And then there 00:17:16.289 --> 00:17:19.849 was Bully Beatdown on MTV, too. What a show. 00:17:19.990 --> 00:17:22.029 Oh, Bully Beatdown, an absolute gem of reality 00:17:22.029 --> 00:17:24.690 television hosted by the one and only Jason Mayhem 00:17:24.690 --> 00:17:27.569 Miller. For anyone who missed this piece of cultural 00:17:27.569 --> 00:17:31.109 history, the concept was simple. A person who 00:17:31.109 --> 00:17:33.329 was being bullied would bring their tormentor 00:17:33.329 --> 00:17:36.039 onto the show. And the bully would be offered 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:40.500 $10 ,000 to get in a cage and fight a professional 00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:43.279 MMA fighter for two rounds. It was basically 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.339 a televised humbling. It was a morality play 00:17:46.339 --> 00:17:49.000 with takedowns. The bully always comes in arrogant, 00:17:49.140 --> 00:17:51.400 thinking their size or street fighting skills 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:53.940 will be enough. And then the bell rings and they 00:17:53.940 --> 00:17:56.539 have this horrifying realization that they are. 00:17:57.139 --> 00:17:59.500 completely, utterly out of their depth. But that 00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:01.980 show could have gone so wrong. You're putting 00:18:01.980 --> 00:18:04.160 an untrained civilian in there with a professional 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.759 killer. It could have been a snuff film. And 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:08.940 the only reason it wasn't was the referee. And 00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:11.529 that referee was Big John. You can watch those 00:18:11.529 --> 00:18:13.769 episodes and you see him officiating it differently. 00:18:13.950 --> 00:18:16.269 He's watching the bully with this intense focus, 00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:19.069 not just for the rules, but for their safety. 00:18:19.210 --> 00:18:21.009 He knew exactly when the bully had learned his 00:18:21.009 --> 00:18:23.569 lesson. He knew the precise moment to step in 00:18:23.569 --> 00:18:26.250 before Mayhem Miller or whoever the pro was did 00:18:26.250 --> 00:18:28.710 permanent damage. He brought his professional 00:18:28.710 --> 00:18:31.869 expertise and made a potentially criminal concept 00:18:31.869 --> 00:18:34.970 into a, well, a semi -safe piece of entertainment. 00:18:35.309 --> 00:18:37.730 He also appeared in some films, right? Never 00:18:37.730 --> 00:18:40.029 Back Down 2 and a documentary called Fight Life. 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:42.420 Yeah, and Fight Life is a really important one. 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:44.259 It was an award -winning documentary by James 00:18:44.259 --> 00:18:47.720 Z. Fang that showed the unglamorous, gritty reality 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.400 of what it takes to be a professional fighter. 00:18:50.859 --> 00:18:54.359 And featuring McCarthy so prominently in it reinforces 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:57.019 the central theme here. You cannot tell the true 00:18:57.019 --> 00:18:59.160 story of mixed martial arts without telling his 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:02.029 story. The two are inseparable. But all stories 00:19:02.029 --> 00:19:04.589 have chapters. And a huge chapter in the MMA 00:19:04.589 --> 00:19:07.190 story came to a close in 2018. His retirement 00:19:07.190 --> 00:19:09.769 from the UFC. He hangs it up. After being the 00:19:09.769 --> 00:19:12.450 one constant from UFC 2 all the way to the modern 00:19:12.450 --> 00:19:14.970 era, he stepped away from officiating in the 00:19:14.970 --> 00:19:17.150 big show. It really was the end of an era. Think 00:19:17.150 --> 00:19:19.789 of the champions he'd seen come and go. The rule 00:19:19.789 --> 00:19:22.329 changes he'd implemented. The ownership changes. 00:19:22.650 --> 00:19:25.250 He was the one piece that was always there. But... 00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:27.500 He didn't just, you know, ride off into the sunset. 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:30.380 He pivoted almost immediately into his second 00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:33.019 act, which I find just as fascinating as his 00:19:33.019 --> 00:19:35.900 first. He became a media member. He joined the 00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:39.420 commentary team for Bellator MMA. And we have 00:19:39.420 --> 00:19:42.299 to stop and appreciate how difficult that transition 00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:44.720 really is. We're used to seeing great fighters 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:46.700 become great commentators. Right, like a Daniel 00:19:46.700 --> 00:19:49.470 Cormier or a Michael Bisping. Exactly. And they 00:19:49.470 --> 00:19:51.430 bring their experience as a fighter to the booth. 00:19:51.490 --> 00:19:53.009 They can say, I know what he's feeling right 00:19:53.009 --> 00:19:55.650 now. I've been in that position. McCarthy could 00:19:55.650 --> 00:19:58.069 never say that. He was never a pro fighter. So 00:19:58.069 --> 00:20:00.869 what was his value? What unique perspective could 00:20:00.869 --> 00:20:03.490 a referee bring to the broadcast? He basically 00:20:03.490 --> 00:20:07.650 created a new role in MMA commentary. The rules 00:20:07.650 --> 00:20:10.329 analyst. It's something you see in the NFL all 00:20:10.329 --> 00:20:12.390 the time. There's a controversial pass interference 00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:15.630 call. And the broadcast immediately cuts to their 00:20:15.630 --> 00:20:18.410 rules expert. usually a former head of officiating 00:20:18.410 --> 00:20:21.109 like a Mike Pereira or Dean Blandino. To explain 00:20:21.109 --> 00:20:23.970 the minutia of the rulebook, did his foot drag 00:20:23.970 --> 00:20:26.529 in bounds? Did he maintain control through the 00:20:26.529 --> 00:20:29.930 process of the catch? Precisely. McCarthy brought 00:20:29.930 --> 00:20:33.650 that level of granular analysis to MMA. And it's 00:20:33.650 --> 00:20:36.309 so desperately needed. The unified rules are 00:20:36.309 --> 00:20:39.869 incredibly complex and, frankly, poorly understood 00:20:39.869 --> 00:20:42.630 by a lot of fans. What constitutes a 10 -8 round? 00:20:42.769 --> 00:20:46.480 Why was that knee illegal? But the next one was 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:48.920 okay. Why did the refs stand them up from the 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.380 ground? McCarty can explain the why. He can break 00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:54.500 down the mechanics of officiating and judging 00:20:54.500 --> 00:20:57.019 in real time. He adds this whole other layer 00:20:57.019 --> 00:20:59.380 of education to the broadcast. Instead of just 00:20:59.380 --> 00:21:01.740 another voice saying, great right hand, he's 00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:03.599 the one saying, notice the referee's position 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:05.819 here. He's moving to a better angle to see if 00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:07.619 the fighter's hand is trapped. And that role 00:21:07.619 --> 00:21:10.019 has continued for him, even after all the shakeups 00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:13.059 in the industry. It has. Bellator was purchased 00:21:13.059 --> 00:21:14.880 by the PFL, the Professional Fighters League, 00:21:14.940 --> 00:21:17.539 in 2023. That was a seismic shift in the MMA 00:21:17.539 --> 00:21:20.000 landscape. And McCarthy survived the merger. 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:22.299 He's still there, now serving as a judging and 00:21:22.299 --> 00:21:24.640 rules analyst for the combined PFL and Bellator 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:26.940 events. So he's still shaping how the audience 00:21:26.940 --> 00:21:29.140 understands the fight? But he's also shaping 00:21:29.140 --> 00:21:31.420 the broader conversation in the sport through 00:21:31.420 --> 00:21:34.180 his own platform. His podcast, Weighing In. With 00:21:34.180 --> 00:21:36.920 his co -host, former Strikeforce champion and 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:40.380 UFC contender Josh Thompson. The punk Josh Thompson. 00:21:40.619 --> 00:21:43.740 And the dynamic between those two is just perfect 00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:46.839 for what they do. It's the ultimate insider debate. 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:50.099 The fighter versus the referee. I can imagine 00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:52.599 they disagree on just about everything. Constantly. 00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:55.529 But it's productive disagreement. Yeah. Thompson 00:21:55.529 --> 00:21:57.970 will argue a point from the fighter's perspective. 00:21:58.529 --> 00:22:00.490 You know, I was just holding him against the 00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:03.250 fence to catch my breath. And McCarthy will immediately 00:22:03.250 --> 00:22:05.730 counter from the official's perspective. And 00:22:05.730 --> 00:22:08.589 that is the literal definition of timidity, which 00:22:08.589 --> 00:22:10.750 is why you got a warning. So the listener gets 00:22:10.750 --> 00:22:13.630 both sides of the coin. You get the full 360 00:22:13.630 --> 00:22:16.670 degree view of why things happen the way they 00:22:16.670 --> 00:22:18.849 do in a fight. And the other thing the podcast 00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:23.049 did, it unleashed him. For his entire career 00:22:23.049 --> 00:22:25.450 as a referee, he had to be neutral. He had to 00:22:25.450 --> 00:22:27.750 be impartial. He couldn't publicly criticize 00:22:27.750 --> 00:22:30.089 a judge's scorecard. He couldn't say he thought 00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:32.250 a fighter's performance was boring. He had to 00:22:32.250 --> 00:22:34.690 be the silent authority figure. Now the muzzle 00:22:34.690 --> 00:22:37.910 is off. He's incredibly opinionated. He will 00:22:37.910 --> 00:22:40.569 call out specific judges by name for what he 00:22:40.569 --> 00:22:43.450 sees as incompetent scoring. He'll critique other 00:22:43.450 --> 00:22:46.750 referees for bad stoppages. He'll criticize matchmaking. 00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:49.319 and promotion. It must be incredibly liberating 00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:51.079 for him after more than two decades of having 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:53.579 to bite his tongue. I think so. He's moved into 00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:56.140 that elder statesman phase of his career. He 00:22:56.140 --> 00:22:57.720 has nothing left to prove. He's seen it all. 00:22:57.819 --> 00:23:00.240 So now he can just speak his mind. And because 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:02.460 he's Big John McCarthy, because his credibility 00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:06.220 is unimpeachable, when he speaks, people in the 00:23:06.220 --> 00:23:09.480 sport listen. His opinion carries immense weight. 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:11.539 Let's talk a bit about the official recognition 00:23:11.539 --> 00:23:15.240 he's gotten, because refereeing is, by its nature, 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:18.180 a thankless job. It's the definition of a thankless 00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:20.839 job. If you have a perfect night, nobody even 00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:23.720 knows your name. If you make one mistake, a billion 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:25.980 -dollar industry and millions of fans are calling 00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:28.299 for your head. But McCarthy was different. He 00:23:28.299 --> 00:23:30.480 was so good and so synonymous with the sport 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.440 that the industry had to acknowledge him. They 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:35.019 did. He was inducted into the Martial Arts History 00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:38.200 Museum Hall of Fame back in 2010. So that's really 00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:40.319 early. That's even before the sport's massive 00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:43.559 FOX television deal. It is. And then at the World 00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.500 MMA Awards, which are like the Oscars of the 00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:48.339 sport, he won referee of the year three years 00:23:48.339 --> 00:23:51.650 in a row. Three times consecutively. 2015, 2016, 00:23:51.910 --> 00:23:55.609 and 2017. Right at the end of his UFC run. It 00:23:55.609 --> 00:23:58.069 was basically the industry giving him a standing 00:23:58.069 --> 00:24:00.730 ovation on his way out the door. He was the fans 00:24:00.730 --> 00:24:03.589 in his peers saying, we see you. We know you're 00:24:03.589 --> 00:24:05.470 the gold standard. And he also put his story 00:24:05.470 --> 00:24:07.750 down on paper, cementing his own legacy. He's 00:24:07.750 --> 00:24:10.009 an author. He is. The book is called Let's Get 00:24:10.009 --> 00:24:12.849 It On. The making of MMA and its ultimate referee 00:24:12.849 --> 00:24:15.869 came out in 2011. Is it a must read for fans 00:24:15.869 --> 00:24:18.410 of the sport? 100%. Because it's not just his 00:24:18.410 --> 00:24:20.970 autobiography. His life story is the story of 00:24:20.970 --> 00:24:23.250 the birth of modern MMA. You can't separate the 00:24:23.250 --> 00:24:25.670 two. He was there for every critical moment, 00:24:25.809 --> 00:24:28.369 from the Gracie family's initial vision to the 00:24:28.369 --> 00:24:30.490 Zufa buyout to the sport's global expansion. 00:24:30.670 --> 00:24:33.210 To read his book is to read the secret history 00:24:33.210 --> 00:24:36.130 of the UFC. Speaking of history and legacy, I 00:24:36.130 --> 00:24:38.230 was really surprised and interested to learn 00:24:38.230 --> 00:24:40.470 that this is kind of becoming a McCarthy family 00:24:40.470 --> 00:24:43.829 business. It is. The legacy is continuing into 00:24:43.829 --> 00:24:46.369 the next generation. The sources say he has three 00:24:46.369 --> 00:24:49.309 kids, two sons and a daughter, and his daughter 00:24:49.309 --> 00:24:52.470 has been a licensed MMA judge since 2013. That 00:24:52.470 --> 00:24:55.269 is amazing. So there is still a McCarthy's name 00:24:55.269 --> 00:24:58.650 on official scorecards at fights. There is. And 00:24:58.650 --> 00:25:00.349 think about the education she must have had. 00:25:00.470 --> 00:25:03.509 It shows you how deeply ingrained the sport and 00:25:03.509 --> 00:25:06.250 its rules are in that family. It wasn't just 00:25:06.250 --> 00:25:09.529 dad's job. It was the family trade. Imagine the 00:25:09.529 --> 00:25:11.609 conversations around that dinner table breaking 00:25:11.609 --> 00:25:13.730 down fights. I'm just picturing a holiday dinner. 00:25:14.049 --> 00:25:15.910 Can you pass the gravy? And by the way, that 00:25:15.910 --> 00:25:18.150 third round was a clear 10 -8, and here's why. 00:25:18.349 --> 00:25:21.029 I'm sure it gets intense. But it's amazing. It 00:25:21.029 --> 00:25:23.509 speaks to a deep respect for the craft of officiating 00:25:23.509 --> 00:25:25.849 and judging and for the integrity of the sport 00:25:25.849 --> 00:25:28.069 itself. So where is he now? He's not still in 00:25:28.069 --> 00:25:30.750 L .A., is he? No, he's left California. The source 00:25:30.750 --> 00:25:32.769 material notes that he currently lives in Tennessee. 00:25:32.990 --> 00:25:35.890 A bit of a quieter life, I'd imagine. Well, maybe 00:25:35.890 --> 00:25:39.289 quieter between gigs. But with the PFL's busy 00:25:39.289 --> 00:25:41.910 schedule, his weekly podcast and other media 00:25:41.910 --> 00:25:44.170 appearances, I doubt the man is sitting still 00:25:44.170 --> 00:25:46.150 very often. He's still one of the most important 00:25:46.150 --> 00:25:48.960 voices in the sport. So as we start to wrap this 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.559 up and look back at this incredible career, I 00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:54.559 mean, from an LAPD cop who manhandled the promoter 00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:57.079 to the guy writing the rule book to the voice 00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:00.920 of analysis on PFL broadcasts, what is the ultimate 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:03.440 takeaway? Why is John McCarthy so important? 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:05.839 I think the best way to put it is that he was 00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:08.200 the conscience of the cage. The conscience of 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:10.599 the cage. I like that. Unpack that for me. Look 00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:13.380 at the ecosystem of a fight. The promoter's job 00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:15.599 is to sell tickets and create drama. They want 00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:17.869 knockouts. They want blood. The fighter's job 00:26:17.869 --> 00:26:20.250 is to win, often by any means necessary. The 00:26:20.250 --> 00:26:22.109 coach's job is to get their fighter the win. 00:26:22.289 --> 00:26:25.029 Everyone has an agenda. Right. The referee is 00:26:25.029 --> 00:26:27.329 the only person in that entire equation whose 00:26:27.329 --> 00:26:30.150 sole primary job is the health and safety of 00:26:30.150 --> 00:26:33.170 the human beings inside the cage. He's the check 00:26:33.170 --> 00:26:35.309 and balance on the entire system. He was the 00:26:35.309 --> 00:26:38.630 guardrail. He was the guardrail. He took a spectacle 00:26:38.630 --> 00:26:41.730 that a very powerful U .S. Senator, John McCain, 00:26:42.049 --> 00:26:45.410 famously called human cockfighting, and he helped 00:26:45.410 --> 00:26:48.170 civilize it. He built the legal and structural 00:26:48.170 --> 00:26:50.730 framework that allowed it to survive political 00:26:50.730 --> 00:26:53.789 attacks and become the multibillion dollar global 00:26:53.789 --> 00:26:57.089 sport it is today. Without his relentless push 00:26:57.089 --> 00:27:00.190 for safety and rules, the UFC likely would have 00:27:00.190 --> 00:27:02.789 been regulated out of existence in the late 90s. 00:27:02.829 --> 00:27:05.390 So every time we tune into a fight on a Saturday 00:27:05.390 --> 00:27:08.069 night, we are in a very real sense watching it 00:27:08.069 --> 00:27:10.150 in the house that Big John helped build. Without 00:27:10.150 --> 00:27:12.630 a doubt, his fingerprints are on every aspect 00:27:12.630 --> 00:27:14.420 of the modern game. You know, that brings me 00:27:14.420 --> 00:27:16.440 to a final thought I want to leave with our listeners, 00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:19.240 a sort of provocative question to chew on. We've 00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:21.339 established this narrative. Here's this man who 00:27:21.339 --> 00:27:24.019 literally helped write the unified rules. He 00:27:24.019 --> 00:27:26.500 then enforced those rules inside the cage at 00:27:26.500 --> 00:27:29.019 the highest level for over two decades. And now 00:27:29.019 --> 00:27:31.420 he sits in the commentary booth and serves as 00:27:31.420 --> 00:27:33.480 the chief public critic of how those same rules 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:35.859 are interpreted and applied. So think about the 00:27:35.859 --> 00:27:38.279 immense pressure that puts on the referees working 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.690 today. You're in there. You've got a split second 00:27:41.690 --> 00:27:44.069 to decide whether to stop a fight or let it continue. 00:27:44.529 --> 00:27:46.829 And you know that in the back of your mind, the 00:27:46.829 --> 00:27:49.109 guy who basically invented your job is upstairs, 00:27:49.309 --> 00:27:51.970 on a live microphone, ready to tell millions 00:27:51.970 --> 00:27:54.490 of people if you got it wrong. It's the shadow 00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:57.509 of the giant. How can you not feel that? Exactly. 00:27:57.529 --> 00:28:01.150 So my question is, does that pressure make today's 00:28:01.150 --> 00:28:04.289 referees better? Or does it make them hesitant? 00:28:04.829 --> 00:28:06.589 Does it make them second guess their instincts 00:28:06.589 --> 00:28:08.750 because they're afraid of being criticized by 00:28:08.750 --> 00:28:11.809 the master himself? The standard he said is so 00:28:11.809 --> 00:28:14.369 high, it might actually be impossible to live 00:28:14.369 --> 00:28:16.470 up to. That's a great question. I mean, iron 00:28:16.470 --> 00:28:18.650 sharpens iron, right? If you want to be the best, 00:28:18.789 --> 00:28:21.109 you have to be able to perform under the watchful 00:28:21.109 --> 00:28:23.549 eye of the person who defined what the best even 00:28:23.549 --> 00:28:25.430 means in your field. And he is always watching. 00:28:25.589 --> 00:28:28.180 Always. Well, thank you for joining us on this 00:28:28.180 --> 00:28:30.740 deep dive into the life and legacy of John McCarthy. 00:28:31.180 --> 00:28:33.240 We hope you learned something new about the man 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:35.759 who was so much more than just the third man 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:38.039 in the cage. Fight smart. We'll see you next 00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:38.299 time.