Okay, I want you to picture something for a second.
You're in Manhattan. It's a Tuesday morning.
The air is crisp. You've got your probably overpriced
coffee in your hand. And you're walking through
the financial district. You look up and the sun
is just catching one of those massive glass towers.
Or, okay, maybe you're at home scrolling through
Twitter or X or whatever we're calling it this
week. Right, who knows. And you see a headline
flash by. New AI startup valued at $20 billion.
The classic unicorn headlines. Yeah, you see
them every single week now. Exactly. And you
look at these things, the skyscraper gleaming
in the sun, the unicorn startup minting millionaires
overnight, and this very specific, maybe a little
cynical thought crosses your mind. I think I
know where you're going with this. You think,
wow, somebody is making an absolute killing off
of this. But then the second thought hits you.
Right away. That somebody is definitely not me.
And historically speaking, you were absolutely
right to think that. I mean, that wasn't you
being cynical. That was just you being realistic.
For the better part of the last century, the
most lucrative assets in the world, we're talking
prime commercial real estate, pre -IPO venture
capital, they've been locked behind what I always
like to call the velvet rope. The VIP section
of capitalism. Pretty much. No sneakers allowed.
Precisely. If you wanted to invest in a commercial
tower or get in on the ground floor of a company
like, I don't know, OpenAI or Uber before they
were household names, you essentially needed
two things. One, you needed millions and millions
of dollars in capital. Or two, you needed the
right phone number in your Rolodex. You had to
be what the Securities and Exchange Commission,
the SEC, defines as an accredited... Which is
really just a fancy regulatory way of saying
rich. It is a regulatory club. And yeah, most
of us were not on the list. But today we are
unpacking the story of a company that looked
at that velvet rope and decided to take a sledgehammer
to it. We are doing a deep dive into Fundrise.
Fundrise. I feel like I've definitely seen their
ads on Instagram. They're the ones with the invest
in real estate tagline, right? Usually showing
a nice house or an apartment complex. That's
how they started, yes. Yeah. But the story is
so, so much bigger than just an app for buying
buildings. Right. Fundrise is a fascinating case
study because it sits right at the violent intersection
of regulatory change and technological disruption.
As of 2025, we're looking at a Washington, D
.C.-based fintech giant. And when you say giant.
I mean, they're managing roughly $2 .87 billion
in equity. They've invested in $7 billion worth
of total assets. Those numbers are staggering.
Just the sheer weight of that capital is hard
to get your head around. They are. But, you know,
the number that really matters to me isn't the
billions. It's the people. How so? We're talking
about. Over 350 ,000 individual investors. Wow.
So not just three guys in a boardroom smoking
cigars and deciding the fate of a neighborhood.
Exactly. This is a massive user base of regular
people. And the mission of this deep dive isn't
just to look at their balance sheet. We want
to unpack how two brothers from D .C. utilized
a specific and frankly kind of obscure change
in federal law, the JOBS Act, to build a machine
that allows you, with as little as $10, to own
pieces of the World Trade Center. Wait, really?
The World Trade Center? Or... The company's building
the future of artificial intelligence. It's just
an incredible journey. I mean, it takes us from
a single renovated building in D .C. to a financial
powerhouse backed by the likes of Goldman Sachs
and J .P. Morgan. It really is. So let's rewind
the tape. Let's go back to the beginning. Because
before they were disrupting Wall Street, the
founders of Fundrise were actually deeply, deeply
embedded in the world of traditional real estate,
weren't they? They were. And I think that's a
crucial distinction. This is not a story of outsiders
throwing rocks at the castle wall. This is a
story of insiders unlocking the gate from the
inside. The founders are Ben and Dan Miller.
And in the Washington, D .C. real estate world,
the name Miller carries some serious weight.
Okay. Why? Who are they? Their father is Herb
Miller of Western Development Corp. Should that
name ring a bell for me? If you live in or around
D .C., absolutely. Even if you don't, you've
probably seen his work. Herb Miller was a major
developer. We're talking over 20 million square
feet of real estate. 20 million! That's a city!
He developed Georgetown Park, Washington Harbor.
These are truly iconic locations. So Ben and
Dan, they didn't grow up talking about baseball
or video games. No. They grew up speaking the
language of zoning, financing, cap rates, and
development right there at the dinner table.
Ben was actually the president of Western Development,
and Dan was a managing partner. So they had the
pedigree. They had the connections. They could
have easily just kept doing what their dad did,
you know, call up a bank, get a $50 million loan,
build a mall, and just count the profits. Why
bother trying to reinvent the wheel? Why take
that kind of risk? Because they saw a flaw in
the model. Or maybe. Maybe they saw a massive
inefficiency that just bothered them. What was
it? Traditional development is incredibly capital
intensive. You are constantly, constantly beholden
to institutional gatekeepers. The banks. The
banks. The private equity funds in New York.
You have to please the loan officer, the guys
running the big funds. Ben and Dan, they wanted
to flip that entire model on its head. They had
this idea. What if we let the community invest
in their own neighborhoods? So buy -in, literally.
Literally. They had this belief that if the people
who live near development actually owned a piece
of it, the project would be more successful.
Think about it. If you own a small stake in the
coffee shop building down the street. I'm going
to my coffee shop every morning. Where are you
going to buy your morning latte? Yeah, it creates
a loyalty loop. Exactly. It creates a stickiness
that traditional capital just can't buy. So they
decided to test this theory out. And this brings
us to their patient zero, right? A project called
Makedo. Makedo. It's a really cool spot, actually.
A communal marketplace in the H Street NE corridor
in Washington, D .C. You've got retail, a restaurant,
a cafe, all mixed together. Okay. Now, usually,
to fund something like this, a developer walks
into a bank with a binder, you know, the size
of a phone book, full of spreadsheets. Right.
But the Millers did something radical for the
time, and we're talking 2010, 2011 here. They
decided to open the investment up to the people.
And when we say people, we're not talking about
hedge fund managers from Connecticut. No. We
mean regular residents, neighbors, people on
the street. They raised $325 ,000 from 175 individual
investors. That's pretty cool. But the key metric
here, the thing that really made headlines, was
the minimum investment. How low did they go?
Any resident. of dc or virginia could invest
for as little as 100 100 that is literally less
than a nice dinner out in washington dc it was
unheard of yeah i mean you have to understand
in real estate private equity the minimum ticket
size is usually 50 000 100 000 sometimes a quarter
of a million dollars just to get in the door
to drop it to a hundred dollars that completely
changed the physics of the deal It democratized
the asset class in a way that had never, ever
been done before in the U .S. But wait a minute.
Doing this in 2010, that couldn't have been easy,
right? I mean, you couldn't just put a donate
here button on a website and call it investing.
The SEC usually frowns on that. Crowns on it
is putting it very, very mildly. The SEC would
usually shut that down in a heartbeat and slap
you with a massive fine. Right. And that is why
the timeline here is so critical. Fundrise was
founded in 2010 and launched in 2012. This was
right before the entire regulatory landscape
shifted beneath everyone's feet. So they were
ahead of the curve. They were effectively hacking
the existing system to make Miketo work. They
were navigating a complete minefield of securities
regulations. They had to file mountains and mountains
of paperwork just to take that $100 from a neighbor.
But they were betting on something. They were
betting on a change that was coming down the
pipeline. The JOBS Act. The Jumpstart Our Business
Startups Act. Okay, let's unpack this. Because
I know securities regulation sounds incredibly
dry -like, my eyes are glazing over just saying
the words. But in this specific case, it was
the magic wand that made the entire Fundrise
business model possible. What exactly did the
JOBS Act do? So to really understand why this
matters, you have to go back to the 1930s. Okay.
After the Great Depression. the stock market
crash, the SEC created very, very strict rules
to protect people. They basically said, grandma
shouldn't be allowed to bet her life savings
on some sketchy private company. Which makes
sense. They wanted to prevent fraud. Exactly.
So they created this concept of the accredited
investor. The VIP list we talked about earlier.
Right. And to be accredited, you generally need
a net worth of over a million dollars. And that
excludes your primary home or an annual income
of over $200 ,000. So a pretty high bar. Very
high. If you didn't meet that bar, you were legally
banned from investing in these private deals.
The government was essentially saying, you aren't
rich enough to understand the risk involved here.
Which is, it's kind of patronizing, isn't it?
You're too poor to handle this opportunity, so
we're going to protect you by keeping you poor.
There's definitely a paternalistic element to
it, for sure. But the argument was always consumer
protection. However, by 2012... You know, the
economy was still clawing its way back from the
2008 crash. Small businesses couldn't get loans.
Startups were starved for capital. So the JOBS
Act was signed. It recognized that this old rule
was choking off a vital source of capital for
the economy. So what did it change? Specifically,
the provisions regarding equity crowdfunding
created a new, streamlined process. It allowed
companies to raise capital from the general public,
from the non -accredited investors, without the
crushing burden and expense of doing a full -blown
IPO. So it basically said you don't have to be
a millionaire to invest in a private company,
and you don't have to be a massive public corporation
to accept money from regular people. In a nutshell,
yes. It was a massive deregulation effort. And
Fundrise was positioned perfectly to ride. This
new wave. They had the platform ready to go.
They had the platform. They had the proof of
concept with Miketo. And now, finally, they had
the law on their side. And they did not waste
any time. They went from that little local shop
on H Street to one of the most iconic addresses
in the entire world. Three World Trade Center.
This was the moment. This was when Fundrise graduated
from being an interesting local experiment to
a national player. In January 2015, they announced
a deal involving the construction of the third
tallest tower at the World Trade Center site
in Lower Manhattan. That is a huge leap. I mean,
we're talking about a multi -billion dollar project,
one of the most scrutinized, most symbolic construction
sites on Earth. How does a crowdfunding app get
involved in that? They did it by offering tax
-free bonds. Fundrise purchased a $5 million
slice of the bonds used for the financing of
the project. Okay. They then took $2 million
of that slice. and offered it directly to their
users on the platform. And again, I have to ask,
was the buy -in accessible? Or was this for the
big fish? $5 ,000. You could buy a bond for $5
,000, and it offered a 5 % tax -free gross annual
return for five years. That is just wild. Owning
a bond in the World Trade Center construction
for five grand? I mean, imagine the bragging
rights at a dinner party. Well, that tower over
there, yeah, I helped finance that. It was a
marketing coup. It generated massive publicity.
And more importantly, it shared that this model
wasn't just for renovating a coffee shop. It
could be a legitimate part of the capital stack
for skyscrapers. Capital stack. OK, there's a
term we should probably define for the listener
who doesn't spend their weekends reading Investopedia.
Right. So think of funding a big building like
a layer cake. The bottom layer, the biggest layer,
is usually a big bank loan. That's the cheapest
money, the senior debt. Safest. The safest, yes.
Then you have layers of... equity on top money
from investors that is riskier but offers much
higher returns if things go well. Fundrise was
inserting itself into that stack, proving that
the crowd could sit right alongside the big banks
and the institutional players. And speaking of
capital, Fundrise wasn't just raising money for
buildings at this point. They were raising money
for themselves, right? To build the tech, to
hire the team, to keep the lights on. Correct.
And their Series A funding round was, for the
time. Record breaking. They raised $38 million.
$38 million. At the time, that was more than
any other crowdfunding company had ever raised.
It wasn't even close. Who was putting up that
kind of cash for a model that was still pretty
new? It was a very interesting and very strategic
mix. The round was led by a company called Renren.
Renren, the Chinese social networking company.
The Facebook of China. That's the one. Ren Ren
invested $31 million of that $38 million total.
That seems a little random. Why would a Chinese
social media company want to invest in a D .C.
real estate platform? It seems random now, but
at the time, Chinese tech giants were aggressively
diversifying into global fintech. They saw the
potential of this model maybe even before a lot
of U .S. venture firms did. So they saw the future.
But what's just as crucial is who else was in
that round? They had heavy hitters from the U
.S. real estate and finance world. Guggenheim
Partners invested. A huge name. A huge name.
You had executives from Rockrose Development
and Forest City Enterprises, two massive real
estate players. So you have the big tech money
from Renren, and then you have the establishment
money from Guggenheim and Rockrose. That is a
powerful seal of approval. It was total institutional
validation. It told the entire market, this isn't
just a toy, this is real. By February 2015, they
had commitments for another $100 million from
institutional investors to put into their real
estate offerings. They were flush with cash,
and they were ready to scale up. And scaling
meant inventing something new, because buying
a specific bond for a specific building is cool,
but... It's hard to build a diversified portfolio
that way, right? If I, the user, have to pick
every single building I want to invest in, that
takes a lot of time and research. Precisely.
And that friction that I have to read 50 documents
just to buy one bond problem led directly to
their biggest innovation yet, the ERIC. The Electronic
Real Estate Investment Trust. Launched in December
2015, this was the world's first ever online
REIT. And it was launched under Regulation A
plus C, which is a specific part of the Joe B
.S. Act that allows for even larger capital raises
from the public. How did this change the user
experience? What did it do for me as an investor?
It simplified it dramatically. Instead of picking
one single building, you just put your money
into the Arrette. The Arrette then goes out and
buys a whole portfolio of properties all across
the United States. And the minimum investment,
it dropped to just $1 ,000. So for $1 ,000, I'm
instantly diversified across commercial real
estate nationwide. It's kind of like a mutual
fund, but for buildings. That's the perfect analogy.
And the demand was immediate and overwhelming.
The first E -Rite had a $50 million offering
cap. They launched a second one in February 2016.
By December of 2016, their income E -Rite became
the first company to ever raise the maximum $50
million allowed under Regulation A. So they were
maxing out what the law literally allowed them
to do. They were pushing the limits of the regulation,
quite literally. They were proving that the retail
investor had an appetite for this product that
Wall Street had just completely underestimated
for decades. And then they kept expanding on
this idea. In 2017, they launched the e -fund.
Yep, the e -fund. How is an e -fund different
from an array? They sound similar. They do, but
they had a different focus. The EREITs were mostly
focused on commercial assets or income generating
properties, things like shopping centers, apartment
complexes that already existed and were paying
rent. OK. Stable income. Exactly. The E -funds,
like their first one, the Los Angeles E -fund,
were focused on for sale housing. in major cities.
So developing new housing stock, building from
the ground up. They also introduced robo advisor
services around this time, helping users allocate
their money based on their goals. You know, do
you want income now or do you want growth later?
It sounds like everything was just going up and
to the right. A perfect startup story. But as
we know, every startup has its growing pains
or in some cases, full blown drama. And Fundrise
hit a massive snag in 2016. They did. It was
a very significant internal conflict that spilled
into the public eye. And honestly, it could have
killed the company right then and there. Wow.
What happened? In February 2016, Fundrise terminated
their chief financial officer and a senior accountant.
Whoa. Firing the CFO is never a small deal. That's
the person who knows where all the money is.
That's the person signing off on the books. What
happened? Well, depends on who you asked at the
time. Yeah. There were two very different stories.
The company alleged that the CFO attempted to
extort over $1 million from the enterprise. Extort.
They claimed he was basically holding the company
hostage. That's like a movie plot. And what was
his side of the story? What did he say? He denied
the extortion claims entirely. He claimed that
his termination was retaliation because he had
reported what he called serious fraudulent behavior
within the company. That is the F word that no
financial company ever wants to hear, fraud,
especially not in fintech. It is a nuclear accusation.
You have to remember the context fintech was
booming, but everyone was terrified of another
Enron or another Madoff situation. Of course.
Especially with a new model like crowdfunding.
If investors lose trust, the platform evaporates
overnight. It's a confidence game. At its core.
So what did Fundrise do? They knew this. So they
immediately hired an outside independent audit
firm to come in and investigate all the allegations.
And what did the audit find? The firm went through
everything and concluded that there was no reasonable
basis for the fraud allegations. OK, so the independent
audit cleared them completely. It did. And while
it was a very tumultuous moment for them, it's
actually a really important part of their history.
FinTech companies love that motto, move fast
and break things, right? That's the Silicon Valley
mantra. But when you are dealing with people's
life savings, you cannot break things. You need
rigorous governance. Surviving that scandal,
submitting to a third -party audit, and coming
out clean, it likely strengthened their internal
controls and, ironically, proved their resilience
to the market. It's the classic trial by fire.
If you can survive an internal coup and a public
fraud accusation, you can probably survive a
tough market. You'd hope so. So they survived
2016. They have the arids humming along. But
the real estate market is always changing. And
around 2021, Fundrise makes another massive pivot.
They stopped looking at office towers and started
looking at suburban driveways. The Sunbelt Strategy.
This is where Fundrise really demonstrated their
ability to analyze macroeconomic data and shift
their massive ship accordingly. It's one thing
to have a good idea. It's another to adapt. So
what did they see in the data that made them
change core so dramatically? They saw the donut
effect happening before it was even really a
mainstream term. The donut effect. I'm hungry,
but I'm assuming we aren't talking about pastries
here. Unfortunately not. It's when the city center,
the downtown core, hollows out and the suburbs
around it get fat. Ah, okay. They saw the huge
demographic shift. Millennials were aging into
their prime home -buying years, but they were
completely priced out of the big coastal cities.
Simultaneously, remote work was beginning to
untether people from expensive places like New
York and San Francisco. People were leaving.
People were leaving and moving to the Sunbelt
places like Texas, Florida, the Carolinas, looking
for more space and more affordability. So Fundrise
decides we need to own the houses these people
are renting. Exactly. They moved aggressively
into single family home development and these
new build to rent communities. Yeah. But to do
this at scale, I mean, to build thousands and
thousands of homes, they needed more than just
crowd capital. They needed serious leverage.
And this is where the names on the partners list
get really, really big. This is where they level
up. In 2021. Fundrise received $300 million in
credit from Goldman Sachs to invest in developing
single -family homes in the Sunbelt. Goldman
Sachs. So that is not a small crowdfunding player
anymore. That is the establishment giving its
blessing. It is. And then you fast forward to
March 2024, and they secured a massive $770 million
credit facility from J .P. Morgan to expand that
exact same strategy. So wait. Let's just pause
on the significance of this for a moment. You
have a platform that was built to disrupt the
banks, to go around the banks, now taking over
a billion dollars in credit from the biggest
banks on Wall Street. It is a fascinating evolution,
isn't it? It signals a huge shift from Fundrise
the Experiment to Fundrise the Institutional
Asset Manager. Goldman and J .P. Morgan do not
hand out credit facilities of that size for fun.
No. unbelievably rigorous due diligence teams.
It implies a deep, deep level of trust in Fundrise's
ability to identify good assets, manage them
effectively, and generate returns. It validates
their entire Sunbelt thesis. And it creates this
kind of hybrid model, the equity, the down payment,
essentially, that comes from the crowd, from
regular folks like you and me. But the debt,
the... big mortgage that comes from Wall Street's
biggest players. Precisely. And that combination
allows them to scale so much faster than if they
were relying on the crowd for 100 % of the capital
stack. It's like capital stack 2 .0. Now, speaking
of banks, we saw a very weird economic moment
in 2023. Interest rates skyrocketed. The banks
all got scared and stopped lending. And Fundrise
saw another opening. They did. This led to the
Opportunistic Credit Fund, which they launched
in January 2023. What was the opportunity? Well,
you have to remember the context. The Federal
Reserve was hiking rates faster than they had
in decades to fight inflation. Traditional banks
were tightening their belts, refusing to lend
for new development projects because they were
worried about their own balance sheets. So you
had all these developers who needed money and
the banks were saying no. And Fundrise stepped
in and said yes. They launched a fund specifically
for their accredited investors to provide high
yield, real estate backed debt. In essence, they
became the lender. That is smart. When interest
rates are high, it's a very good time to be the
bank. It's a great time to be the bank. It allowed
them to capture those higher interest rates for
their investors, providing a really strong defensive
play while the equity market was wobbling. It
showed they could play both offense and defense.
So up to this point, the entire story is about
real estate. Buildings, houses, debt for buildings.
But the subtitle of this deep dive includes venture
capital. And this, to me, is the most surprising
pivot of them all. Because dirt and bricks are
one thing. Canjul. AI code and software algorithms
are something else entirely. This is the Futures
Now segment of our story. In late 2022, Fundrise
launches the Innovation Fund. What was the pitch
for this? Why should a real estate investor care
about tech startups? The pitch was actually very
similar to the original real estate pitch. The
most exciting growth in the economy is happening
in private markets and you are locked out. But
instead of buildings, they were now talking about
high growth private tech companies, specifically
fintech and artificial intelligence. But why
pivot? I mean, was real estate getting boring?
Was the Sunbelt strategy not working? It's not
about boredom. It's about where the value is
being created in the 21st century. It's about
something called the J -curve. The J -curve.
Okay, break that down for us. So back in the
90s, companies went public really early. Think
about Amazon. It went public when it was tiny,
relatively speaking. Right. So regular people,
you and me, got to buy the stock and enjoy all
of that massive growth in the public market.
Today, it's the opposite. Companies stay private
for a decade or even longer. All the massive
growth, that hyper growth phase of a company
like OpenAI happens before it ever goes public.
Right. By the time it finally hits the Nasdaq,
the 100x gains have already been made by the
venture capitalists on Sand Hill Road. Exactly.
If you wait for the IPO, you might be buying
at the very top. Fundrise wanted to give Main
Street access to that pre -IPO growth. They argued
that a truly modern portfolio needs exposure
to technology, not just real estate. So who are
we talking about here in this fund? Are these
random, no -name startups? Far from it. As of
2025, the Innovation Fund has raised over $252
million from around 74 ,000 investors. And their
portfolio includes names that define the current
tech landscape. They have a stake in OpenAI.
ChatGPT Creators. They have a stake in Anthropic.
The Claude Creators. The other big AI player.
Ramp. Omni. These are what they call their star
holdings. That is absolutely mind bending to
me. So a regular person using an app on their
phone that they may be downloaded to buy a piece
of an apartment building essentially owns a tiny,
tiny sliver of open AI. Technically, yes, through
the fund. It democratizes access to the potential
upside of the AI revolution in a way that simply
wasn't possible a decade ago. It's the velvet
rope being cut again, but this time for the VIP
section of Silicon Valley. And they aren't just
relying on their own app to sell this new fund
anymore, right? I saw something about a major
partnership with SoFi. Yes, that happened in
July 2025. SoFi, which is another massive fintech
company with millions of users, began offering
Fundrise's innovation fund to its own user base.
That's a huge distribution channel. That's putting
it in front of so many new eyeballs. It is. It
integrates Fundrise's product. into the broader
FinTech ecosystem. It signals that Fundrise is
becoming an infrastructure player. They're providing
the investment vehicle that other platforms can
just plug into. They are becoming part of the
plumbing of private market investing for the
masses. So we sit here in 2026. Fundrise has
survived the startup phase. They have navigated
a public scandal. They've weathered massive interest
rate hikes. They're managing billions of dollars.
And they're winning awards left and right. Forbes
FinTech 50, Inc. 5 ,000, CNBC's top FinTech companies.
They have, for all intents and purposes, built
a new type of financial institution. Yeah. One
that looks very, very different from the banks
of the 20th century. So let's bring it all home.
What does this all mean for the person listening
to this right now? Why does this story matter
to them? It matters because it represents a fundamental
shift in how wealth is generated and who gets
access to it. For a long, long time, the stock
market, the public market, was the only game
in town for the average person. Fundrise and
the broader wave of these Reg A Plus platforms
are trying to let Main Street. participate in
the private markets, where so much of that early
growth happens. It means investing is no longer
a black box. You have tools to diversify your
own portfolio beyond just stocks and bonds. But,
and there's always a but, it requires a different
level of understanding. This isn't a savings
account at your local bank. No, it is not. And
that's critical. These are illiquid assets. You
can't necessarily pull your money out tomorrow
like you can with a stock. Why not? Because real
estate takes time to build or to sell. A venture
capital investment can take 7 to 10 years to
mature. The velvet rope has been cut, but the
risks of being in the VIP section are still very
real. You have to be willing to lock your money
up for the long term. You have to have a long
time horizon. That is the tradeoff. Access comes
with responsibility. You get the seat at the
table, but you also have to be prepared to pay
the bill if the meal isn't good. And that raises
the final and perhaps the most provocative question
for our listeners to chew on as we wrap up. Let's
hear it. Fundrise started by letting neighbors
own their neighborhood shops. It was local. It
was tangible. You could see the bricks. Now it
lets them own pieces of artificial intelligence
and massive, complex credit portfolios. As these
platforms grow to manage not just $7 billion,
but maybe $70 billion, maybe $700 billion, will
the distinction between Wall Street and Main
Street investors eventually disappear entirely?
And if it does, does the sheer scale of this
retail herd introduce new types of systemic risks
we haven't even thought of yet? What happens
if 350 ,000 people panic at the same time in
a private market that isn't designed for that
kind of speed or liquidity? That is a heavy thought.
We wanted access. We got access. And now we have
to live with the market dynamics we helped create.
Indeed. It's a brave new world of investing.
Well, thank you for unpacking this with us. It's
been a fascinating look at how a change in the
law and some ambitious brothers really did change
the entire investing landscape. My pleasure.
It was a great conversation. And to our listener,
thanks for deep diving with us. We'll catch you
on the next one.