WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.520 Welcome back to The Deep Dive. Today we are opening 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:05.440 a file that I think for a certain generation, 00:00:05.660 --> 00:00:08.439 it really defines the era of televised justice. 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:10.980 Oh, absolutely. It's a case that almost everyone 00:00:10.980 --> 00:00:13.369 knows by name, but... You know, when you really 00:00:13.369 --> 00:00:15.810 dig into it, very few people truly understand 00:00:15.810 --> 00:00:18.489 it beyond the headlines. We are talking about 00:00:18.489 --> 00:00:22.589 the murder of Travis Alexander and the trial 00:00:22.589 --> 00:00:25.870 of Jodi Arias. It is a name that brings up so 00:00:25.870 --> 00:00:27.649 much specific imagery, doesn't it? It really 00:00:27.649 --> 00:00:31.530 does. The glasses, the courtroom outbursts, just 00:00:31.530 --> 00:00:34.710 the media frenzy. It was a whole cultural moment. 00:00:34.929 --> 00:00:36.850 Exactly. But here's the problem with cultural 00:00:36.850 --> 00:00:39.729 moments, right? They tend to turn real people 00:00:39.729 --> 00:00:42.619 into characters. Yeah. Caricatures almost. When 00:00:42.619 --> 00:00:44.439 you hear Jodi Arias, you probably think of the 00:00:44.439 --> 00:00:46.640 circus. You think of the cable news pundits screaming, 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:49.200 the Twitter wars, the absolute spectacle of it 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:51.899 all. Right. But beneath all of that noise, there 00:00:51.899 --> 00:00:55.399 is a very real, very complex, and frankly, very 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:58.640 disturbing case history. It's so true. The sensationalism, 00:00:58.659 --> 00:01:01.820 it obscures the actual forensic facts and legal 00:01:01.820 --> 00:01:05.319 strategies that were in play. And looking at 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:07.939 the stack of sources we have today. which includes 00:01:07.939 --> 00:01:11.140 the full case history, trial transcripts, psychological 00:01:11.140 --> 00:01:13.540 evaluations, and updates all the way through 00:01:13.540 --> 00:01:16.760 to 2026, there is so much more to this story 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.000 than just the drama. And that is our mission 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:21.359 today. We are going to move past that soap opera 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:24.280 element and try to unpack the why and the how. 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:26.739 We want to look at the psychology, the shifting 00:01:26.739 --> 00:01:29.200 narratives, which are absolutely wild when you 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:32.579 lay them out chronologically. And this unprecedented 00:01:32.579 --> 00:01:35.680 intersection of social media and the justice 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:37.719 system. And it really was a turning point. It 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:40.140 was the moment where the jury box and the comment 00:01:40.140 --> 00:01:42.219 section started to blur. So let's start at the 00:01:42.219 --> 00:01:44.299 beginning, before the cameras, before the trial, 00:01:44.459 --> 00:01:46.719 before the hashtags. We need to understand the 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:48.640 people involved. Right. Let's talk about the 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:51.579 victim, Travis Alexander, because in the Jodi 00:01:51.579 --> 00:01:55.260 show, he often gets reduced to just a prop. Who 00:01:55.260 --> 00:01:58.500 was he really? Travis Alexander was a fascinating, 00:01:58.780 --> 00:02:01.700 multilayered individual. He was born on July 00:02:01.700 --> 00:02:05.980 28th, 1977 in Riverside, California. And to understand 00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:07.819 Travis, you have to understand where he came 00:02:07.819 --> 00:02:10.780 from. His backstory is actually quite tragic, 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:13.659 which makes his later success all the more impressive. 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:16.300 The sources mention a very unstable childhood. 00:02:16.580 --> 00:02:19.180 Very. I mean, he was one of eight children. Eight. 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:23.500 Wow. Yeah. His father died in July 1997, leaving 00:02:23.500 --> 00:02:25.860 the family in a really, really precarious spot. 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:29.479 So he was about 20 then. Exactly. And eventually, 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:32.180 Travis and his seven siblings were raised by 00:02:32.180 --> 00:02:34.180 their grandmother. So it wasn't an easy start 00:02:34.180 --> 00:02:36.280 by any stretch. Right. He grew up with a lot 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:39.219 of chaos. And by his own admission, he had a 00:02:39.219 --> 00:02:41.229 bit of a rough streak as a kid. You know, he 00:02:41.229 --> 00:02:43.469 got into fights. He had a temper. But he turned 00:02:43.469 --> 00:02:46.030 it around, right? He became this self -made success 00:02:46.030 --> 00:02:50.150 story. He absolutely did. And that pivot is really 00:02:50.150 --> 00:02:52.689 central to his character. He began working for 00:02:52.689 --> 00:02:55.610 a company called Prepaid Legal Services, or PPL. 00:02:55.870 --> 00:02:58.169 Okay, PPL. I've heard of them. And he wasn't 00:02:58.169 --> 00:03:00.599 just punching a clock. He was a salesman. But 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:02.960 he was also a motivational speaker. He was charismatic. 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:06.259 He was driven. He was someone who projected a 00:03:06.259 --> 00:03:09.620 very specific image of success and positivity. 00:03:09.979 --> 00:03:11.939 I was reading in the notes that he was deeply 00:03:11.939 --> 00:03:14.639 involved in his faith as well. Yes, he was a 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:16.319 devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:19.060 Latter -day Saints. A Mormon. Right. And his 00:03:19.060 --> 00:03:21.900 faith provided him with a community and a moral 00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:25.159 framework that he really seemed to cling to after 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:28.259 his chaotic childhood. But there's another detail 00:03:28.259 --> 00:03:31.000 that I think makes him so human, which often 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:33.379 gets left out of the grim retelling of his death. 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:36.620 The comedy. Yes. Yeah. Travis did stand -up comedy. 00:03:36.740 --> 00:03:40.719 He had an alter ego named Eddie Snell. He would 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:43.379 perform routines. That's such a specific detail. 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.259 Eddie Snell. It speaks to that desire to entertain, 00:03:46.500 --> 00:03:48.479 right? To be the center of attention, to be liked. 00:03:48.780 --> 00:03:52.039 He was described by those close to him as a... 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:54.340 Good man. Someone who would overcome a history 00:03:54.340 --> 00:03:56.680 of fighting as a kid to become this polished, 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:58.879 funny, successful professional. He was the guy 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:00.479 you wanted at your party. So you had this guy, 00:04:00.539 --> 00:04:03.539 Travis, who is projecting success and stability. 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:06.800 He's built this life from scratch. And then enters 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:10.080 Jodi Arias. What is her story leading up to their 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.379 meeting? Jodi Arias was born in July 1980 in 00:04:13.379 --> 00:04:16.100 Salinas, California. Her trajectory was quite 00:04:16.100 --> 00:04:18.620 different. She was a high school dropout. She 00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:20.740 left Eureka Union High School in the 11th grade. 00:04:21.419 --> 00:04:24.240 She didn't have that same drive for a singular 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:26.579 career path that Travis had. She was sort of 00:04:26.579 --> 00:04:29.360 drifting a bit, you know, working odd jobs, aspiring 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:32.240 to be a photographer. And somehow, despite these 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:34.519 different worlds, they end up at the same place. 00:04:34.899 --> 00:04:37.180 Well, Jodi eventually landed a sales position 00:04:37.180 --> 00:04:39.769 with PPL. The same company Travis worked for. 00:04:39.829 --> 00:04:42.089 Oh, OK. So that's the connection. That's the 00:04:42.089 --> 00:04:43.850 connection. And that's how they crossed paths. 00:04:44.129 --> 00:04:46.689 They met at a work conference in Las Vegas in 00:04:46.689 --> 00:04:49.850 September 2006. Vegas. It always seems to start 00:04:49.850 --> 00:04:52.430 in Vegas, doesn't it? It does. And this meeting 00:04:52.430 --> 00:04:55.029 kicks off a dynamic that is fascinating from 00:04:55.029 --> 00:04:58.209 a psychological perspective. We see the first 00:04:58.209 --> 00:05:01.439 signs of what some experts call. The chameleon 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.000 effect. Unpack that for me. Because usually when 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:05.579 two people meet, they get to know each other. 00:05:05.660 --> 00:05:07.480 But you're suggesting Jodi did something else. 00:05:07.699 --> 00:05:09.899 She didn't just get to know him. She became what 00:05:09.899 --> 00:05:12.560 he wanted. She molded herself to fit his world 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:15.279 completely. Remember, Travis was a devout Mormon. 00:05:15.860 --> 00:05:19.259 Very quickly after they met, Jodi expressed a 00:05:19.259 --> 00:05:21.959 deep interest in the church. Travis actually 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:25.680 baptized her himself in November 2006. Wait, 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:28.149 let's look at that timeline. They meet in September, 00:05:28.370 --> 00:05:31.129 and by November, she is converting to his faith, 00:05:31.250 --> 00:05:34.350 and he is performing the baptism. Yes. That is 00:05:34.350 --> 00:05:36.709 a massive commitment for a relationship that 00:05:36.709 --> 00:05:39.529 is barely two months old. It is, and it signals 00:05:39.529 --> 00:05:42.189 a lack of a strong core identity on her part. 00:05:42.310 --> 00:05:44.110 I mean, it seems like she was adopting his life. 00:05:44.290 --> 00:05:46.910 They started officially dating in February 2007. 00:05:47.310 --> 00:05:50.610 Okay. But the geography was tricky. Initially, 00:05:50.629 --> 00:05:53.129 she moved to Mesa, Arizona. to be closer to him, 00:05:53.170 --> 00:05:55.250 which again is a huge move very early on. A huge 00:05:55.250 --> 00:05:57.870 move. But later, by April 2008, she had moved 00:05:57.870 --> 00:05:59.910 back to California to live with her grandparents 00:05:59.910 --> 00:06:03.089 in Eureka. So they shifted into this long -distance 00:06:03.089 --> 00:06:05.430 dynamic. Right. And from what I'm seeing in the 00:06:05.430 --> 00:06:08.230 timeline, intermittent is putting it politely, 00:06:08.290 --> 00:06:10.589 this was tumultuous. They were on again, off 00:06:10.589 --> 00:06:12.149 again. They would drive back and forth to see 00:06:12.149 --> 00:06:13.670 each other. But they were also seeing other people 00:06:13.670 --> 00:06:16.800 during the off times. And this is where the external 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:18.980 perspective becomes so important. Usually in 00:06:18.980 --> 00:06:20.759 a new relationship, you want your friends to 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:25.100 like your partner. But Travis's friends, they 00:06:25.100 --> 00:06:27.240 did not like her. That is an understatement. 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:31.420 The source material is very, very clear. Travis's 00:06:31.420 --> 00:06:34.220 friends were actively worried. It wasn't just 00:06:34.220 --> 00:06:36.879 a personality clash. They reported some very 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:39.100 alarming behaviors. Like what? What were they 00:06:39.100 --> 00:06:42.240 saying? Stalking behavior. She would show up 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:44.980 unannounced. She was caught accessing his Facebook 00:06:44.980 --> 00:06:47.600 account without permission to read his messages. 00:06:47.819 --> 00:06:50.759 That's a huge violation of privacy. Huge. And 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:52.699 then there was the incident with the tire. Slash 00:06:52.699 --> 00:06:55.459 tires. Yes. Travis's tires were slashed. Now, 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:58.199 Jody denied doing it, but the timing was suspicious 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:00.860 and it fit a pattern of escalation. That's a 00:07:00.860 --> 00:07:03.699 massive red flag. Slash tires isn't just crazy 00:07:03.699 --> 00:07:06.379 ex -behavior. That's property destruction. That's 00:07:06.379 --> 00:07:08.990 violence. Why did he stay? That is the question, 00:07:09.050 --> 00:07:11.550 isn't it? It's the complexity of toxic relationships. 00:07:11.850 --> 00:07:14.230 Despite these red flags, despite his friends 00:07:14.230 --> 00:07:16.410 telling him she was dangerous, the relationship 00:07:16.410 --> 00:07:19.810 continued. There's this disconnect between the 00:07:19.810 --> 00:07:23.250 public persona Travis had, the leader, the mentor, 00:07:23.389 --> 00:07:25.149 and the private volatility he was entertaining. 00:07:25.750 --> 00:07:28.290 Maybe he thought he could save her. Maybe he 00:07:28.290 --> 00:07:30.829 enjoyed the intensity. But he couldn't quite 00:07:30.829 --> 00:07:33.149 cut the cord. And unfortunately, that inability 00:07:33.149 --> 00:07:37.199 to make a clean break led to June 2008. Let's 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:40.800 move to that week, June 4th, 2008. But to understand 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:42.920 the impact, we actually have to start with the 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:45.379 discovery of the body, which wasn't until five 00:07:45.379 --> 00:07:48.660 days later on June 9th. Right, because he lived 00:07:48.660 --> 00:07:50.819 with roommates, but they didn't realize he was 00:07:50.819 --> 00:07:53.240 dead. How does that happen? It sounds strange, 00:07:53.420 --> 00:07:55.279 but the roommates thought he was busier out of 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.540 town. He was supposed to go on a trip to Cancun. 00:07:57.660 --> 00:07:59.600 Okay, that makes sense. But he had missed an 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:01.620 important conference call on the evening of June 00:08:01.620 --> 00:08:04.259 4th. That was completely out of character for 00:08:04.259 --> 00:08:07.420 him. By June 9, his friends were genuinely worried. 00:08:07.579 --> 00:08:10.079 A group of them went to his home in Mesa to check 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:11.699 on him. And they found a key to his bedroom. 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:14.120 They did. And what they walked into was a scene 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.939 from a nightmare. They found large pools of blood 00:08:16.939 --> 00:08:19.079 in the hallway leading to the master bathroom. 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:22.920 And in the shower, they found Travis. We have 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:24.959 details on the 911 call from that night. It's 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:28.120 chilling. But one thing stands out to me. The 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.300 dispatcher asks a standard question. Is there 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:34.549 anyone who would want to hurt him? And the answer 00:08:34.549 --> 00:08:36.909 was immediate. The friends didn't say maybe a 00:08:36.909 --> 00:08:39.250 robbery or we don't know. They named a suspect 00:08:39.250 --> 00:08:42.110 immediately. Who did they name? They said Jody 00:08:42.110 --> 00:08:45.250 Arias. They told the police right then and there 00:08:45.250 --> 00:08:47.230 about the stalking, the Facebook hacking, the 00:08:47.230 --> 00:08:50.190 tires. They knew. Wow. Their intuition was spot 00:08:50.190 --> 00:08:52.690 on. It was. Now we have to talk about the crime 00:08:52.690 --> 00:08:55.309 scene itself because the nature of the wounds. 00:08:55.370 --> 00:08:57.450 This wasn't just a robbery gone wrong. This was 00:08:57.450 --> 00:09:00.490 personal. It was incredibly violent. The forensic 00:09:00.490 --> 00:09:04.419 evidence showed 27 stab wounds. 27. Just let 00:09:04.419 --> 00:09:07.360 that number sink in. Yes. Most were to his back 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:10.159 and torso. But the kill shots were horrific. 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:12.940 His throat had been slit from ear to ear, severing 00:09:12.940 --> 00:09:15.399 the jugular, the carotid artery, and the trachea. 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:17.200 And a gunshot. And there was a gunshot wound 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:20.700 to the forehead for a .25 caliber weapon. I've 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:22.820 heard the term overkill used a lot with this 00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:26.679 case. In criminology, overkill refers to when 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:29.759 the injuries far exceed. what is necessary to 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:33.120 cause death. It usually implies a deep personal 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:35.519 emotional connection between the attacker and 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:38.840 the victim. It suggests rage. Like a frenzy. 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:41.720 Exactly. It suggests an inability to stop. And 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:43.519 there was a big debate, wasn't there, about the 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.460 order of the wounds. Huge. And this became very 00:09:46.460 --> 00:09:49.200 important during the trial regarding the cruelty 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:51.960 aggravating factor. Okay, explain that. The medical 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:54.559 examiner, Dr. Kevin Horn, testified that Travis 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:57.220 had defensive wounds on his hands. Which means 00:09:57.220 --> 00:10:00.100 he was fighting back. Exactly. He was conscious. 00:10:00.179 --> 00:10:03.059 He saw the knife coming. Dr. Horn believed the 00:10:03.059 --> 00:10:05.639 gunshot likely happened last, possibly even when 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:07.539 he was already dead or dying. Why does the order 00:10:07.539 --> 00:10:09.779 matter so much? If he had been shot in the forehead 00:10:09.779 --> 00:10:12.139 first, a bullet to the brain would have likely 00:10:12.139 --> 00:10:14.899 incapacitated him instantly. He wouldn't have 00:10:14.899 --> 00:10:16.600 been able to raise his hand to defend himself 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:18.639 against this subsequent stabbing. Right, he'd 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:20.820 be down. The fact that he had defensive wounds 00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:23.820 implies that he suffered. He was fighting for 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:26.980 his life while being stabbed 27 times, and the 00:10:26.980 --> 00:10:29.620 throat slit and gunshot came at the end to finish 00:10:29.620 --> 00:10:32.559 it. That is horrific to even think about. But 00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:34.980 in terms of evidence, the police found something 00:10:34.980 --> 00:10:38.070 in that house that changed the entire case. The 00:10:38.070 --> 00:10:40.809 smoking gun. The camera. A digital camera. It 00:10:40.809 --> 00:10:43.269 was found in the washing machine. Jody had apparently 00:10:43.269 --> 00:10:45.490 thrown it in there and run a cycle with bleach, 00:10:45.690 --> 00:10:48.690 presumably to destroy it. But digital forensics 00:10:48.690 --> 00:10:51.789 is a powerful tool. It is. The camera was destroyed, 00:10:51.929 --> 00:10:54.190 but the memory card was intact. They were able 00:10:54.190 --> 00:10:56.970 to recover deleted images. And these photos, 00:10:57.190 --> 00:11:00.470 they essentially provided a minute -by -minute 00:11:00.470 --> 00:11:02.809 timeline of the murder. Walk us through what 00:11:02.809 --> 00:11:04.950 the jury saw. It's one of the most pivotal sequences 00:11:04.950 --> 00:11:07.259 of evidence I've ever seen. The photos started 00:11:07.259 --> 00:11:11.399 at around 1 .40 p .m. on June 4. They show Jodi 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:14.100 and Travis in the bedroom, engaging in sexually 00:11:14.100 --> 00:11:16.519 suggestive poses. So that proves she was there. 00:11:16.659 --> 00:11:18.059 It proves she was there. It proved they were 00:11:18.059 --> 00:11:21.179 intimate that day. Then at 5 .29 p .m., there 00:11:21.179 --> 00:11:24.240 is a photo of Travis alive, standing in the shower. 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:26.899 He is looking at the camera. He looks vulnerable, 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:29.659 wet. The water is running. And minutes later. 00:11:29.820 --> 00:11:32.820 The photos become chaotic. Blurry, angle at the 00:11:32.820 --> 00:11:35.750 floor, the ceiling. But one image captures a 00:11:35.750 --> 00:11:38.490 subject believed to be Travis bleeding profusely 00:11:38.490 --> 00:11:41.309 on the bathroom floor. Oh, my God. Another accidental 00:11:41.309 --> 00:11:43.769 snap shows the back of Jodi's leg in her pants. 00:11:43.970 --> 00:11:46.450 So you have a photo of him alive and minutes 00:11:46.450 --> 00:11:49.899 later, a photo of the murder in progress. It 00:11:49.899 --> 00:11:52.799 completely destroys any alibi she could possibly 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:54.899 come up with. It does. It puts the killer in 00:11:54.899 --> 00:11:57.580 the room holding the camera at the exact moment 00:11:57.580 --> 00:12:00.519 of death. And yet, despite this overwhelming 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:03.240 objective reality, Jodi Arias went through a 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:05.580 series of changing stories that are frankly baffling 00:12:05.580 --> 00:12:08.059 in their audacity. Let's unpack those lies. This 00:12:08.059 --> 00:12:10.360 is part three of our dive, The Chameleon's Lies. 00:12:10.539 --> 00:12:13.600 When she is first arrested in July 2008, what 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:15.620 does she say? Story number one, total denial. 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:18.340 She told the police she wasn't even in Mesa that 00:12:18.340 --> 00:12:20.360 day. She claimed she hadn't seen Travis since 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:22.639 March 2008. Which we know is a lie because of 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:25.679 the timestamp photos. A blatant lie. But she 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:28.659 stuck to it initially. However, as the evidence 00:12:28.659 --> 00:12:31.899 started to mount specifically the DNA, because 00:12:31.899 --> 00:12:33.559 they found a bloody palm print in the hallway 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:36.000 with mixed DNA from both of them, she had to 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:39.120 pivot. Enter story number two. The intruder theory. 00:12:40.100 --> 00:12:42.539 She claimed that while she was visiting Travis, 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:45.700 two intruders masked men broke into the home. 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.159 The famous ninja defense. The ninja defense. 00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:51.220 Yeah. She claimed they killed Travis and attacked 00:12:51.220 --> 00:12:53.580 her, but she managed to escape. Did she explain 00:12:53.580 --> 00:12:56.600 why she didn't call 911 after this supposed attack? 00:12:56.799 --> 00:12:58.440 She claimed they threatened her family if she 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:00.279 went to the police. Of course. But the story 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:03.039 fell apart instantly. There was no evidence of 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:05.399 forced entry. No footprints from these intruders. 00:13:05.419 --> 00:13:08.000 No foreign DNA. And her behavior afterwards, 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:11.289 wasn't it odd? Very. Going on a date, acting 00:13:11.289 --> 00:13:13.289 completely normal, it didn't max someone who 00:13:13.289 --> 00:13:14.889 had just survived a home invasion slaughter. 00:13:15.129 --> 00:13:17.129 So finally, two years later, we get story number 00:13:17.129 --> 00:13:20.070 three, the story she took to trial. Self -defense. 00:13:20.389 --> 00:13:22.750 She admitted she killed him. She admitted she 00:13:22.750 --> 00:13:25.090 held a knife. But she claimed she was a victim 00:13:25.090 --> 00:13:27.230 of domestic violence and that she had to kill 00:13:27.230 --> 00:13:30.190 him to save herself. So she goes from I wasn't 00:13:30.190 --> 00:13:33.169 there to ninjas did it to I did it, but I had 00:13:33.169 --> 00:13:35.350 to. It's a drastic shift. And the prosecution. 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:38.980 led by Juan Martinez, had to dismantle this self 00:13:38.980 --> 00:13:41.700 -defense claim. Their argument was that this 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:45.220 was not a sudden act of fear, but a cold, calculated, 00:13:45.580 --> 00:13:49.299 premeditated execution. And they had the receipts 00:13:49.299 --> 00:13:51.340 to prove it. Let's talk about the road trip, 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:53.519 because this wasn't just a casual drive. This 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:56.340 is where the planning becomes undeniable. Jodi 00:13:56.340 --> 00:13:58.779 lived in Eureka, California. She told people 00:13:58.779 --> 00:14:00.940 she was going on a business trip to Utah. Okay. 00:14:01.379 --> 00:14:03.320 But looking at her route, she made a massive 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:06.309 detour down to Mesa, Arizona. And the car rental 00:14:06.309 --> 00:14:08.870 itself was suspicious. She rented a car in Redding, 00:14:08.870 --> 00:14:10.889 California, which is miles away from her home. 00:14:11.009 --> 00:14:13.590 Why not rent locally? The prosecution argued 00:14:13.590 --> 00:14:15.470 she was trying to distance the rental from her 00:14:15.470 --> 00:14:18.009 identity. But the key piece of evidence here 00:14:18.009 --> 00:14:21.389 involves gas cans. The gas cans. I remember this 00:14:21.389 --> 00:14:24.029 being a huge point of contention. Why gas cans? 00:14:24.309 --> 00:14:27.029 She borrowed multiple gas cans from friends and 00:14:27.029 --> 00:14:29.389 purchased fuel in advance in California. The 00:14:29.389 --> 00:14:31.610 prosecution argued this was to avoid leaving 00:14:31.610 --> 00:14:34.000 a paper trail. Explain that. If she used credit 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.679 cards at gas stations in Arizona, it would place 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:39.899 her at the scene. If she paid cash, she still 00:14:39.899 --> 00:14:43.240 risks being on CCTV at the pump. By bringing 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:45.500 her own gas, she could travel through Arizona 00:14:45.500 --> 00:14:48.559 essentially as a ghost. That is deeply calculated. 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:50.779 That is logistical planning. And then there's 00:14:50.779 --> 00:14:54.899 the gun. A .25 caliber handgun was reported stolen 00:14:54.899 --> 00:14:56.860 from her grandparents' home where she was staying 00:14:56.860 --> 00:15:00.080 just days before the murder. Let me guess, nothing 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:02.759 else was taken. Nothing else of value. It was 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:05.960 a staged burglary. Oh, and of course, the gun 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.340 used to shoot Travis was a .25 caliber. And she 00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:12.100 also changed her appearance, right? Yes. She 00:15:12.100 --> 00:15:14.080 dyed her blonde hair dark brown right before 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:16.480 the trip. The prosecution argued this was to 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.000 blend in, to look different, perhaps to look 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:21.200 less like the Jody people knew if she was spotted. 00:15:21.299 --> 00:15:23.519 So you have the stolen gun, the gas cans, the 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:26.320 hair dye, the detour. It's really hard to argue. 00:15:26.860 --> 00:15:29.720 crime of passion or sudden self -defense when 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:31.440 you have a checklist of preparations like that. 00:15:31.659 --> 00:15:34.379 Exactly. Premeditation requires reflection and 00:15:34.379 --> 00:15:37.220 a decision to kill. The gas cans alone suggest 00:15:37.220 --> 00:15:38.759 she was thinking about how to get away with the 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:41.320 crime before she even left California. So we 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.679 get to the trial, the trial of the century, or 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:45.539 at least the trial of the social media age. This 00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:49.059 was 2013. The atmosphere was electric and chaotic. 00:15:49.659 --> 00:15:53.080 It was described in the sources as a circus and 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:56.279 a runaway train. In what way? You had members 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.600 of the public lining up at the courthouse at 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:02.779 4am to get a seat. You had live, unedited web 00:16:02.779 --> 00:16:05.460 feeds broadcasting every second of testimony 00:16:05.460 --> 00:16:09.320 to the world. It was must -see TV. And the defense 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:12.519 strategy. Since Jody had admitted to the killing, 00:16:12.909 --> 00:16:14.850 They couldn't argue facts. They had to argue 00:16:14.850 --> 00:16:17.710 character. Right. They relied heavily on destroying 00:16:17.710 --> 00:16:19.789 Travis's reputation. That is a common tactic 00:16:19.789 --> 00:16:22.710 in self -defense cases, especially those invoking 00:16:22.710 --> 00:16:24.990 domestic violence. They tried to paint Travis 00:16:24.990 --> 00:16:27.679 as a monster. And they made some pretty... Extreme 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:29.899 claims. They did. They claimed he was physically 00:16:29.899 --> 00:16:32.419 abusive. They even accused him of pedophilia, 00:16:32.419 --> 00:16:34.759 claiming he had urges that Jodi helped him with. 00:16:34.899 --> 00:16:37.039 Which is a massive accusation to make against 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:38.960 a dead man who can't defend himself. Was there 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:41.559 any proof? Zero. No corroboration from anyone. 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:44.100 Just the word of a woman who had already lied 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:46.259 to the police multiple times. And then there 00:16:46.259 --> 00:16:49.100 was the testimony of Jodi herself. She was on 00:16:49.100 --> 00:16:53.580 the stand for 18 days. 18 days. That is unheard 00:16:53.580 --> 00:16:56.200 of. It's insane. Usually defense attorneys are 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:58.019 wary of putting their client on the stand at 00:16:58.019 --> 00:17:01.740 all. But she wanted to tell her story. She detailed 00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:04.140 the alleged abuse. She told a story about him 00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:06.680 breaking her finger, which the prosecution later 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:09.339 debunked with photos showing her finger was fine. 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.220 And the sex tape. That was a huge moment in the 00:17:12.220 --> 00:17:14.980 trial. It was. They played a phone sex recording 00:17:14.980 --> 00:17:18.559 in court. It involved a consensual bondage fantasy 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:20.920 where Travis talked about tying her to a tree. 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:22.480 And the defense thought this would help their 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:25.119 case. They wanted to use it to show Travis was 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:28.839 degrading her, but it backfired spectacularly. 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.359 On the tape, you can hear Jodi participating 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:33.980 enthusiastically, saying she liked it. So it 00:17:33.980 --> 00:17:36.299 didn't sound like a victim. Not at all. It showed 00:17:36.299 --> 00:17:39.359 a consensual... albeit kinky, dynamic, rather 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:41.599 than the terrified victim she was portraying 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.099 on the stand. And then we have the battle of 00:17:43.099 --> 00:17:45.039 the experts. This is where the psychology gets 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:46.680 really technical, and I think this is crucial 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:48.579 for our listeners to understand. This was the 00:17:48.579 --> 00:17:52.000 core of the defense. They called Alice LaViolette 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:55.119 a domestic violence expert. She testified that 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:57.440 Jodi was a battered woman and that her lying 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:00.140 to the police was a coping mechanism, a shame 00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:02.740 response. And they also had a psychologist, Dr. 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:05.839 Richard Samuels. Right. Dr. Samuels diagnosed 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:08.680 Jodi with PTSD, post -traumatic stress disorder, 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.700 and something called dissociative amnesia. The 00:18:11.700 --> 00:18:14.980 brain fog defense. Exactly. He argues she was 00:18:14.980 --> 00:18:17.059 in a fog during the killing and couldn't remember 00:18:17.059 --> 00:18:19.380 the details because of the trauma. But the prosecution 00:18:19.380 --> 00:18:21.619 had a rebuttal witness who completely flipped 00:18:21.619 --> 00:18:24.289 the script. Dr. Janine DeMart. She was a clinical 00:18:24.289 --> 00:18:26.349 psychologist who strongly disagreed with the 00:18:26.349 --> 00:18:29.829 PTSD diagnosis. She diagnosed Jodi with borderline 00:18:29.829 --> 00:18:32.529 personality disorder, or BPD. Okay, let's pause 00:18:32.529 --> 00:18:34.750 here. For the listener, what is the critical 00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:37.170 difference between PTSD and BPD in the context 00:18:37.170 --> 00:18:39.710 of a murder trial? Why does it matter which one 00:18:39.710 --> 00:18:42.170 she had? It changes the entire narrative of the 00:18:42.170 --> 00:18:45.009 violence. PTSD is a response to trauma. It's 00:18:45.009 --> 00:18:48.009 about fear, hyperarousal, and flashbacks. Right. 00:18:48.109 --> 00:18:50.549 If the jury believes she had PTSD from abuse, 00:18:50.910 --> 00:18:53.569 it supports the idea that she acted out of fear 00:18:53.569 --> 00:18:57.130 for her life. It's a reaction. And BPD. Borderline 00:18:57.130 --> 00:18:59.730 personality disorder is characterized by unstable 00:18:59.730 --> 00:19:03.109 relationships, a frantic fear of abandonment, 00:19:03.130 --> 00:19:07.089 and a shifting identity. A person with BPD might 00:19:07.089 --> 00:19:09.619 experience splitting. where they view someone 00:19:09.619 --> 00:19:12.319 as all good one minute and all evil the next. 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:15.059 Okay, I see. So in the context of this crime, 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.200 a BPD diagnosis suggests that the killing wasn't 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:21.549 about fear of harm, but fear of rejection. So 00:19:21.549 --> 00:19:24.289 Dr. DiMari was arguing that she didn't kill him 00:19:24.289 --> 00:19:26.390 because she was scared. She killed him because 00:19:26.390 --> 00:19:28.869 he was leaving her. Exactly. The prosecution 00:19:28.869 --> 00:19:31.470 argued she killed him because she was furious 00:19:31.470 --> 00:19:34.269 he was moving on, perhaps taking that trip to 00:19:34.269 --> 00:19:36.470 Cancun with another woman. It aligns with the 00:19:36.470 --> 00:19:38.670 stalking, the slashing of tires, the checking 00:19:38.670 --> 00:19:41.089 of Facebook. Those are abandonment issues, not 00:19:41.089 --> 00:19:43.579 survival issues. That is a powerful distinction. 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:45.960 And Dr. DeMargay's testimony was very damaging 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:47.859 to the defense because it provided a psychological 00:19:47.859 --> 00:19:50.759 framework that matched the overkill nature of 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:53.859 the crime. Now, we can't talk about this trial 00:19:53.859 --> 00:19:55.599 without talking about the audience. Part five 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:58.000 of our outline, the social media trial. You mentioned 00:19:58.000 --> 00:19:59.980 earlier that the jury box in the comments section 00:19:59.980 --> 00:20:02.640 blurred. How bad did it get? It was the first 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.539 time we really saw the full force of a digital 00:20:05.539 --> 00:20:08.559 lynch mob. I mean, the harassment was severe. 00:20:09.019 --> 00:20:12.119 Alice Le Villette. the defense expert who testified 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.779 about domestic violence. Yeah. She received death 00:20:14.779 --> 00:20:17.660 threats. She was review bombed on Amazon. People 00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:20.319 who hadn't read her books were leaving one star 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:23.200 reviews calling her a fraud and a disgrace. That 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.089 is terrifying. It's one thing to have an opinion 00:20:26.089 --> 00:20:28.529 on a case, but to destroy a professional's career 00:20:28.529 --> 00:20:30.910 because they testified for the defense? It's 00:20:30.910 --> 00:20:33.650 awful. It raises a massive question about the 00:20:33.650 --> 00:20:36.670 judicial process. Can a witness testify freely 00:20:36.670 --> 00:20:41.690 if they know they will be destroyed online? He 00:20:41.690 --> 00:20:44.549 was mocked relentlessly. People superimposed 00:20:44.549 --> 00:20:46.930 his face onto crime scene photos. It was vicious. 00:20:47.390 --> 00:20:49.589 And Jodi herself was participating in this media 00:20:49.589 --> 00:20:52.089 circus, wasn't she? From jail. She was incredibly 00:20:52.089 --> 00:20:54.190 media savvy. She gave interviews from jail to 00:20:54.190 --> 00:20:56.930 Inside Edition and 48 Hours during the trial. 00:20:57.049 --> 00:20:59.569 During the trial. Yes. She even had friends tweeting 00:20:59.569 --> 00:21:01.529 for her from prison. She was selling her artwork 00:21:01.529 --> 00:21:04.470 pencil drawings on eBay from her cell. Her brother 00:21:04.470 --> 00:21:07.230 said it was to pay for better food. That is surreal. 00:21:08.130 --> 00:21:11.450 Selling art while on trial. for a brutal murder 00:21:11.450 --> 00:21:15.569 it shows a level of narcissism and a desire to 00:21:15.569 --> 00:21:18.710 control the narrative that is quite rare so eventually 00:21:18.710 --> 00:21:22.589 the verdict comes down may 8 2013 guilty of first 00:21:22.589 --> 00:21:25.450 degree murder the jury found it was premeditated 00:21:25.450 --> 00:21:27.970 they didn't buy the self -defense story and they 00:21:27.970 --> 00:21:30.589 didn't buy the fog but the drama didn't end there 00:21:30.589 --> 00:21:33.869 we moved to the sentencing phase and this is 00:21:33.869 --> 00:21:36.130 where things got even weirder if that's possible 00:21:36.130 --> 00:21:38.970 the penalty phase was to determine if she should 00:21:38.970 --> 00:21:41.680 get the death penalty Initially, right after 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:44.200 the conviction, Jodi told a reporter she preferred 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:46.480 the death penalty. Oh, I remember this. She said 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.660 death was the ultimate freedom. A very bold, 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:51.720 defiant statement. But when it came time to stand 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.920 before the jury and plead for her life, she changed 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:57.359 her tune. She said she wanted to live for her 00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.799 family. But then she did something that left 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:01.940 everyone stunned. The t -shirt. She held up a 00:22:01.940 --> 00:22:03.700 white t -shirt with the word survivor written 00:22:03.700 --> 00:22:06.279 on it. A survivor shirt. After being convicted 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:09.869 of slaughtering her ex -boyfriend. Yes. She told 00:22:09.869 --> 00:22:11.589 the jury she would sell the shirt for charity 00:22:11.589 --> 00:22:13.869 and donate the proceeds to victims of domestic 00:22:13.869 --> 00:22:16.549 abuse. She also said she would donate her hair 00:22:16.549 --> 00:22:19.250 to Locks of Love. It feels so manipulative. It 00:22:19.250 --> 00:22:21.450 feels like she was trying to brand herself as 00:22:21.450 --> 00:22:24.109 a victim even after the jury said, no, you are 00:22:24.109 --> 00:22:26.230 the murderer. It was a very strange strategy. 00:22:26.549 --> 00:22:28.890 And the jury struggled with it. They deadlocked 00:22:28.890 --> 00:22:30.809 eight to four. They couldn't agree on death or 00:22:30.809 --> 00:22:33.130 life. And there was a second penalty phase, right? 00:22:33.230 --> 00:22:35.549 A whole new jury just for the sentence. Yes. 00:22:35.589 --> 00:22:38.740 In October 2014, they tried again. And again, 00:22:38.859 --> 00:22:41.680 they deadlocked. The second jury was 11 to 1 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.380 in favor of the death penalty. 11 to 1. One single 00:22:45.380 --> 00:22:47.819 juror held out for life. And that juror paid 00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:50.400 a heavy price. Her name was leaked online. She 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:53.220 was doxed, threatened. Her address was posted. 00:22:53.420 --> 00:22:55.740 It was another example of that mob mentality 00:22:55.740 --> 00:22:57.799 attacking the process because they didn't get 00:22:57.799 --> 00:22:59.799 the result they wanted. Because they couldn't 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:02.420 get a unanimous vote for death, the death penalty 00:23:02.420 --> 00:23:04.950 was taken off the table. Correct. On April 13, 00:23:05.349 --> 00:23:09.130 2015, Judge Sherry Stevens sentenced her to life 00:23:09.130 --> 00:23:11.190 imprisonment without the possibility of parole. 00:23:11.430 --> 00:23:13.970 She will die in prison. So that brings us to 00:23:13.970 --> 00:23:16.569 the post -trial era. It's been over a decade 00:23:16.569 --> 00:23:19.789 since the sentencing. We are in 2026 now. What 00:23:19.789 --> 00:23:22.349 has happened since? There were appeals, of course. 00:23:22.730 --> 00:23:26.250 In 2018 and 2020, her team appealed based on 00:23:26.250 --> 00:23:29.589 prosecutorial misconduct and the media circuit. 00:23:29.730 --> 00:23:31.730 And there was misconduct. Right. The prosecutor, 00:23:31.930 --> 00:23:34.549 Juan Martinez, was quite controversial. He was. 00:23:34.650 --> 00:23:36.990 The appeals court actually ruled that egregious 00:23:36.990 --> 00:23:40.099 misconduct did occur. Martinez was known for 00:23:40.099 --> 00:23:42.940 being aggressive, perhaps too aggressive, and 00:23:42.940 --> 00:23:45.079 making inappropriate comments. So did that affect 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:47.480 the conviction? It didn't. And this is a key 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:50.059 legal concept. The court ruled that the evidence 00:23:50.059 --> 00:23:52.640 of guilt was so overwhelming that the misconduct 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.359 didn't change the outcome. This is often called 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:58.059 harmless error. The conviction stood. Where is 00:23:58.059 --> 00:24:01.279 Jodi Arias today in 2026? She is at the Arizona 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:04.089 State Prison Complex, Perryville. She started 00:24:04.089 --> 00:24:06.529 in maximum security, the Lumley unit, but has 00:24:06.529 --> 00:24:08.809 since been downgraded to medium security. She's 00:24:08.809 --> 00:24:10.930 serving her time. But I see a note here about 00:24:10.930 --> 00:24:12.990 a recent development, a blog post from this year, 00:24:13.049 --> 00:24:17.210 2026. Yes. Even now, over 15 years later, she 00:24:17.210 --> 00:24:20.180 is trying to control the narrative. In a 2026 00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:23.400 blog post, she claimed that detectives lost or 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:25.640 destroyed evidence and that she is preparing 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:27.880 yet another appeal regarding her constitutional 00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:30.839 rights. She just won't let it go. It fits the 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:32.940 pattern we've discussed, the need to be seen, 00:24:33.099 --> 00:24:35.480 the need to be the victim, the need to explain 00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:37.900 away the reality. And what about Travis's family? 00:24:38.019 --> 00:24:40.240 Is there any restitution? She was ordered to 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:43.799 pay $32 ,000 to Travis's siblings to cover their 00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:46.839 travel and funeral expenses. That's it. Her attorney 00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:48.539 noted at the time it was only a fraction of what 00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:51.240 they requested. But really, no amount of money 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:53.779 fixes this. It really is a tragedy from every 00:24:53.779 --> 00:24:56.160 angle. You have a young man, Travis Alexander, 00:24:56.380 --> 00:24:59.039 who overcame so much, who had a bright future, 00:24:59.180 --> 00:25:01.180 whose life was ended because he tried to leave 00:25:01.180 --> 00:25:03.539 a relationship. And he was killed by someone 00:25:03.539 --> 00:25:06.750 who simply could not handle that rejection. It's 00:25:06.750 --> 00:25:08.970 a stark reminder of the dangers of untreated 00:25:08.970 --> 00:25:11.890 personality disorders and the volatility of toxic 00:25:11.890 --> 00:25:14.549 relationships. And on a broader level, this case 00:25:14.549 --> 00:25:17.250 changed how we consume true crime. It turned 00:25:17.250 --> 00:25:20.730 justice into a spectator sport. It did. And I 00:25:20.730 --> 00:25:23.029 think that's the legacy, really. We need to reflect 00:25:23.029 --> 00:25:26.009 on that. When we treat a murder trial like a 00:25:26.009 --> 00:25:28.650 soap opera, when we tweet threats at witnesses, 00:25:28.930 --> 00:25:32.630 when we turn lawyers into memes, we are stripping 00:25:32.630 --> 00:25:36.150 away... the humanity of the victim. Travis Alexander 00:25:36.150 --> 00:25:39.150 wasn't a character in a show. He's a real person 00:25:39.150 --> 00:25:42.589 who died a horrific death. And that fact got 00:25:42.589 --> 00:25:45.029 lost in the noise. That is the most important 00:25:45.029 --> 00:25:47.190 takeaway. It's easy to get lost in the Jodi show, 00:25:47.289 --> 00:25:49.150 but this was always about Travis. Absolutely. 00:25:49.410 --> 00:25:51.750 Thank you for taking us through this heavy, complex 00:25:51.750 --> 00:25:54.769 file. It's a lot to process, but the psychological 00:25:54.769 --> 00:25:58.089 and legal details really paint a different picture 00:25:58.089 --> 00:26:00.210 than the headlines. It is important to understand 00:26:00.210 --> 00:26:03.329 the reality behind the sensationalism. For everyone 00:26:03.329 --> 00:26:05.369 listening, take a moment to think about that 00:26:05.369 --> 00:26:07.890 boundary between justice and entertainment. And 00:26:07.890 --> 00:26:10.809 as always, stay curious, but stay critical. We'll 00:26:10.809 --> 00:26:11.970 see you on the next deep dive.