WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.960 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. It is Monday, 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:06.839 February 2nd, 2026. Today, we are opening a file 00:00:06.839 --> 00:00:09.679 that I think for most of us feels like it has 00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:11.580 been sitting on the desk of American culture 00:00:11.580 --> 00:00:14.279 for our entire lives. It really is the endless 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:16.579 case. We are talking about the Menendez brothers, 00:00:16.899 --> 00:00:20.859 Lyle and Eric. If you were online or watching 00:00:20.859 --> 00:00:23.239 the news or frankly just breathing air in 2024 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:26.039 and 2025, you probably thought this story was 00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:28.379 over. Oh, absolutely. There was this massive 00:00:28.379 --> 00:00:31.100 cultural wave, documentaries, the dramatizations 00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:33.399 on Netflix, Kim Kardashian getting involved. 00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:37.659 It felt like a done deal. They were coming home. 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:40.299 It felt inevitable. The momentum was unlike anything 00:00:40.299 --> 00:00:42.560 we've seen in the criminal justice space in decades. 00:00:42.899 --> 00:00:44.780 You had public sentiment shifting, the district 00:00:44.780 --> 00:00:46.679 attorney's office pivoting. It looked like the 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:48.299 final chapter was being written. And yet here 00:00:48.299 --> 00:00:51.140 we are. It's February 2026. The welcome home 00:00:51.140 --> 00:00:53.479 banners have been taken down. Lyle and Eric Menendez 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:56.060 are still waking up every morning in a cell at 00:00:56.060 --> 00:00:58.039 the Richard J. Donovan Correctional Facility. 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:00.399 Still there. So my question and the question 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:04.000 we need to answer today is simply, what happened? 00:01:04.620 --> 00:01:08.730 How do you go from almost free? to denied in 00:01:08.730 --> 00:01:11.030 the span of just a few months? And to answer 00:01:11.030 --> 00:01:12.930 that, we can't just look at the parole hearing 00:01:12.930 --> 00:01:14.790 from last August. We have to look at the whole 00:01:14.790 --> 00:01:17.469 picture. I mean, the entire timeline. So what 00:01:17.469 --> 00:01:19.640 are we working with today? For today's deep dive, 00:01:19.819 --> 00:01:21.739 I've brought in the full stack. I've got the 00:01:21.739 --> 00:01:24.500 original 1989 police reports, the psychological 00:01:24.500 --> 00:01:28.140 evaluations from Dr. Ozio, which are just fascinating. 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:30.280 I can imagine. And then the transcripts from 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:33.299 both the 1993 and the 1996 trials, and critically, 00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:36.180 the actual text of the parole board's decision 00:01:36.180 --> 00:01:38.980 from August 2025. Okay, so our mission is to 00:01:38.980 --> 00:01:41.459 connect the dots. We want to understand not just 00:01:41.459 --> 00:01:44.099 the crime, but the legal machinery that has kept 00:01:44.099 --> 00:01:46.840 them in, let them almost out, and then slam the 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:48.870 door shut again. That is the goal. We need to 00:01:48.870 --> 00:01:50.469 parse the difference between a resentencing, 00:01:50.590 --> 00:01:52.810 which they won, and parole, which they lost. 00:01:52.989 --> 00:01:55.469 Those are two very different legal beasts. And 00:01:55.469 --> 00:01:56.870 to do that, we have to start at the beginning. 00:01:57.049 --> 00:01:59.609 We have to. Before the TikToks, before the Netflix 00:01:59.609 --> 00:02:01.909 shows, we have to go back to that house in Beverly 00:02:01.909 --> 00:02:04.370 Hills. Let's start with the image, because I 00:02:04.370 --> 00:02:06.310 think people forget before they were the Menendez 00:02:06.310 --> 00:02:08.870 brothers killers, they were the Menendez family, 00:02:09.110 --> 00:02:12.539 the American dream. On paper, you could not script 00:02:12.539 --> 00:02:15.800 a better success story. It centers on the father, 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:18.800 Jose Menendez. And I think to understand the 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:20.740 boys, you have to understand the sheer force 00:02:20.740 --> 00:02:23.419 of will that was Jose. He was an immigrant, right? 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:26.360 From Cuba. He was. He came from Cuba at age 15, 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:29.699 right after the revolution. His family lost everything. 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:32.960 So he lands in the U .S., a teenager with nothing. 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:36.060 And he climbs. That's incredible. He gets a scholarship 00:02:36.060 --> 00:02:38.659 to Southern Illinois University. He meets Kitty 00:02:38.659 --> 00:02:42.419 there. Louise Anderson. They marry in 63. He 00:02:42.419 --> 00:02:44.319 grinds his way through an accounting degree at 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:46.699 Queens College. But he didn't stay an accountant 00:02:46.699 --> 00:02:50.099 for long? No. No way. His rise was meteoric. 00:02:50.259 --> 00:02:52.719 He was aggressive, charming, and ruthless in 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:55.340 business. He moves to Hertz, then RCA Records. 00:02:55.659 --> 00:02:57.580 By the time they get to California, he's the 00:02:57.580 --> 00:02:59.759 CEO of Live Entertainment. Live Entertainment? 00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:01.520 That was a big deal on the home video market, 00:03:01.580 --> 00:03:04.419 wasn't it? A huge deal. Think Dirty Dancing. 00:03:04.539 --> 00:03:07.280 Think Rambo. He was the guy who could make or 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:09.020 break careers in the entertainment industry. 00:03:09.379 --> 00:03:12.039 He was synonymous with power. And with that power 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:14.580 came wealth. Extreme wealth. They moved from 00:03:14.580 --> 00:03:16.639 New York to New Jersey, where the boys went to 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.259 Princeton Day School, which is very elite, then 00:03:19.259 --> 00:03:23.259 to Calabasas, and finally to 722 North Elm Drive 00:03:23.259 --> 00:03:26.120 in Beverly Hills. The famous house. The famous 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:29.159 house. A Mediterranean -style mansion, tennis 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.539 court, pool, the works. It was the absolute pinnacle 00:03:32.539 --> 00:03:37.310 of the 90s. In Kitty. The mother. Where did she 00:03:37.310 --> 00:03:39.449 fit into this picture of power and ambition? 00:03:39.789 --> 00:03:41.909 She was the homemaker, but the sources paint 00:03:41.909 --> 00:03:44.469 a really complicated picture. She was a former 00:03:44.469 --> 00:03:47.229 teacher, won beauty pageants in her youth. But 00:03:47.229 --> 00:03:49.789 as Jose's career skyrocketed and the pressure 00:03:49.789 --> 00:03:52.449 mounted, she struggled. In what way? The sources 00:03:52.449 --> 00:03:54.889 from the trial from both sides highlight heavy 00:03:54.889 --> 00:03:57.569 drinking, depression, and weird shifting dynamic 00:03:57.569 --> 00:03:59.889 with her sons. She was described as sometimes 00:03:59.889 --> 00:04:02.009 suffocatingly close and other times completely 00:04:02.009 --> 00:04:05.780 detached, almost neglectful. stable presence. 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:09.960 Very. And that instability, coupled with Jose's 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.439 rigid perfectionism, created this pressure cooker 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:15.360 environment. Let's talk about the sons then, 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:18.620 Lyle and Eric, because the prosecution's narrative 00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:21.600 was always spoiled brats. And looking at the 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:24.779 early sources, there's some truth to that, isn't 00:04:24.779 --> 00:04:26.860 there? There were definitely behavioral issues 00:04:26.860 --> 00:04:29.560 that money was covering up, or at least trying 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:33.379 to. Take Lyle, the older one, born in 68. He 00:04:33.379 --> 00:04:35.319 gets into Princeton University. Which is a golden 00:04:35.319 --> 00:04:38.079 ticket. Your dad's dream for you. It is, but 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:40.079 he treats it like a playground. He was placed 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:42.600 on academic probation almost immediately. Then 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:44.959 he gets suspended for plagiarism. Plagiarism, 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:46.959 wow. But it's the dorm life notes that are really 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:49.660 interesting. He lived in Goss Hall. He was reportedly 00:04:49.660 --> 00:04:52.319 a nightmare to live with. How so? There are reports 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:54.420 of him just throwing his roommate's stuff into 00:04:54.420 --> 00:04:56.120 the hall because he decided he didn't want to 00:04:56.120 --> 00:04:58.680 share the space. He was overflowing sinks, causing 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:01.199 water damage. He essentially acted like rules 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:03.639 didn't apply to him. That sounds like deep entitlement. 00:05:04.699 --> 00:05:07.879 I'm a Menendez. I do what I want. Precisely. 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:10.959 It wasn't just college kid pranks. It was a fundamental 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:13.480 disregard for other people's existence. Okay, 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:15.800 so that's Lyle. What about Eric? Eric, two years 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:18.759 younger, born in 1970. He's at Beverly Hills 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:21.519 High. He's not the academic star like Lyle was 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:23.660 supposed to be, but he's a tennis prodigy. I 00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:25.800 remember that. He was nationally ranked, wasn't 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:28.860 he? He was. Ranked 44th in the U .S. for his 00:05:28.860 --> 00:05:31.120 age group. He was being groomed for a professional 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:33.959 career. That was his path. But there's something 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.040 else in your notes here about a screenplay he 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.319 wrote. This detail always gives me chills. This 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:41.120 is one of those details that feels like it's 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:44.120 straight out of a movie. In high school, Eric 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:46.220 co -wrote a screenplay called Friends with a 00:05:46.220 --> 00:05:49.160 Classmate. Craig Signorelli. Okay, teenage boys 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:51.980 write scripts. What was it about? The plot was 00:05:51.980 --> 00:05:54.459 about a wealthy young man who murders his parents 00:05:54.459 --> 00:05:57.540 to inherit their fortune. And he plans and commits 00:05:57.540 --> 00:06:00.879 the perfect crime. Wait. You're telling me he 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.019 literally wrote the script for what he was going 00:06:03.019 --> 00:06:05.420 to do? It's almost too on the nose, isn't it? 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:08.779 The prosecution certainly thought so later. It 00:06:08.779 --> 00:06:11.300 suggests that the idea of parenticide for profit 00:06:11.300 --> 00:06:14.040 was at least a fantasy in his head long before 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:16.420 the night in question. A fantasy that was about 00:06:16.420 --> 00:06:18.860 to get a lot more real. And it wasn't just fantasy. 00:06:18.939 --> 00:06:22.199 In 1988, a year before the murders, the brothers 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:25.439 went on a burglary spree. Burglary. They lived 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:27.759 in a mansion. What were they stealing? The thrill, 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:31.839 mostly. But they stole over $100 ,000 in cash 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:34.420 and jewelry from their neighbor's houses in Calabasas. 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:37.699 That's not a prank. That's grand larceny. That's 00:06:37.699 --> 00:06:40.680 serious felony territory. It is. And this is 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:42.779 actually why the family moved to Beverly Hills. 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:45.699 It was a geographical cure. Jose smoothed it 00:06:45.699 --> 00:06:47.980 over legally. Money makes problems disappear. 00:06:48.259 --> 00:06:51.050 But the tension in that house was nuclear. So 00:06:51.050 --> 00:06:53.610 you have a father who demands perfection, a mother 00:06:53.610 --> 00:06:56.250 who is fraying at the edges, and two sons who 00:06:56.250 --> 00:06:58.110 are committing felonies for fun. The pressure 00:06:58.110 --> 00:07:01.170 cooker is hissing. Which brings us to August 00:07:01.170 --> 00:07:05.430 1989. The week of the murders. But it didn't 00:07:05.430 --> 00:07:07.310 just happen that night. There was planning involved. 00:07:07.689 --> 00:07:10.589 A lot of planning. And this is what destroys 00:07:10.589 --> 00:07:13.009 the idea that they just snapped in a moment of 00:07:13.009 --> 00:07:16.350 passion. On Friday, August 18th, two days before. 00:07:17.019 --> 00:07:19.779 Lyle and Eric tried to buy handguns. Handguns. 00:07:19.779 --> 00:07:22.240 But they got flagged. California has a waiting 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:24.420 period and there was an issue with Lyle's license, 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:26.560 so they couldn't get them. If they had gotten 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:28.300 handguns, do you think the crime scene would 00:07:28.300 --> 00:07:29.790 have looked different? Completely different. 00:07:29.910 --> 00:07:32.050 Handguns are surgical. You point, you shoot. 00:07:32.170 --> 00:07:34.750 It's relatively contained. But because they were 00:07:34.750 --> 00:07:38.310 denied, they went to plan B. Which was? They 00:07:38.310 --> 00:07:40.949 drove down to San Diego to a Big Five sporting 00:07:40.949 --> 00:07:43.930 goods store. Lyle used a stolen ID belonging 00:07:43.930 --> 00:07:46.430 to a friend, Donovan Goodrow. So now we have 00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:49.170 premeditation and use of a stolen ID. And they 00:07:49.170 --> 00:07:52.490 bought two Mossberg 12 -gauge shotguns. See, 00:07:52.569 --> 00:07:55.459 I'm not a gun expert. But I know that a 12 -gauge 00:07:55.459 --> 00:07:58.060 shotgun is not a precision instrument. That is 00:07:58.060 --> 00:08:00.519 a weapon designed for massive damage. It's a 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:02.740 weapon of obliteration. And that speaks to the 00:08:02.740 --> 00:08:04.540 psychology of the killing, the rage involved. 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:08.279 So they have the guns. Sunday night, August 20th. 00:08:08.459 --> 00:08:10.980 Jose and Kitty are in the den. They are eating 00:08:10.980 --> 00:08:13.579 ice cream, vanilla, and berries and watching 00:08:13.579 --> 00:08:16.199 a movie. Do we know what movie it was? The Spy 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.990 Who Loved Me. A James Bond film. It's so mundane. 00:08:20.389 --> 00:08:22.629 Yeah. Just a wealthy couple winding down their 00:08:22.629 --> 00:08:25.769 weekend. Until the door opens. Lyle and Eric 00:08:25.769 --> 00:08:28.689 enter carrying the loaded shotguns. They didn't 00:08:28.689 --> 00:08:30.750 say a word. They just opened fire. I've read 00:08:30.750 --> 00:08:32.879 the autopsy reports in your stack here. They 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:35.779 are difficult to read. They are brutal. They 00:08:35.779 --> 00:08:38.419 are horrific. This wasn't just shooting. Jose 00:08:38.419 --> 00:08:41.320 was hit six times. The first shot blew out his 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.580 elbow. The second hit him in the back. The fatal 00:08:43.580 --> 00:08:45.759 shot was to the back of the head and at that 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:49.139 range with a shotgun. The medical examiner described 00:08:49.139 --> 00:08:51.960 decapitation and evisceration. Oh, my God. It 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:54.600 was overkill in the extreme. And kitty. This 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:56.279 is the part that really hurts the self -defense 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:59.370 argument later on. Kitty was shot. She was wounded. 00:08:59.450 --> 00:09:01.570 She was on the floor, crawling away, trying to 00:09:01.570 --> 00:09:04.970 escape. And Lyle ran out of ammunition. So he 00:09:04.970 --> 00:09:07.990 stopped. No. He ran out to their car, reloaded 00:09:07.990 --> 00:09:10.409 the shotgun, walked back into the house, and 00:09:10.409 --> 00:09:13.210 fired the final fatal shot into her face while 00:09:13.210 --> 00:09:15.769 she was helpless on the floor. That reload moment. 00:09:15.970 --> 00:09:18.230 That's the pivot point, isn't it? Legally speaking. 00:09:18.490 --> 00:09:21.509 It's everything. In the eyes of the law, that 00:09:21.509 --> 00:09:24.110 pause running to the car, fumbling with shells, 00:09:24.289 --> 00:09:27.269 loading the chamber, that is time to think. That 00:09:27.269 --> 00:09:29.830 is time to choose. It takes it from a panicked 00:09:29.830 --> 00:09:32.830 reaction to a deliberate execution. So the deed 00:09:32.830 --> 00:09:35.710 is done. The house is a slaughterhouse. What 00:09:35.710 --> 00:09:38.429 do they do next? Do they run? No, they go into 00:09:38.429 --> 00:09:41.190 scriptwriter mode. They meticulously collect 00:09:41.190 --> 00:09:43.110 the shell casings, though they missed a few, 00:09:43.169 --> 00:09:46.049 which were found later. They take the guns and 00:09:46.049 --> 00:09:48.169 their bloody clothes and drive up to Mulholland 00:09:48.169 --> 00:09:51.490 Drive and dump them in a canyon. And then the 00:09:51.490 --> 00:09:54.450 alibi. Then they need an alibi. Their first idea 00:09:54.450 --> 00:09:57.409 was flawed. They bought tickets to see Tim Burton's 00:09:57.409 --> 00:09:59.710 Batman. Right. I remember this detail. But they 00:09:59.710 --> 00:10:02.409 realized the timestamps on the tickets wouldn't 00:10:02.409 --> 00:10:04.690 line up with the coroner's estimated time of 00:10:04.690 --> 00:10:07.330 death. They were thinking clearly enough to realize 00:10:07.330 --> 00:10:10.210 that their alibi had a hole in it. Which is pretty 00:10:10.210 --> 00:10:13.110 cold and calculated. Extremely. So instead, they 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:16.029 went to the Taste of L .A. Festival at the Santa 00:10:16.029 --> 00:10:18.669 Monica Civic Auditorium. His walking around eating 00:10:18.669 --> 00:10:21.629 appetizers after executing their parents. It 00:10:21.629 --> 00:10:24.600 suggests a profound level of dissociation. or 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:26.899 sociopathy, depending on which expert you ask. 00:10:27.100 --> 00:10:29.740 They return home later that night, discover the 00:10:29.740 --> 00:10:32.919 bodies, and Lyle makes the call. The 911 call. 00:10:33.259 --> 00:10:36.440 Someone killed my parents. It's hysterical. He's 00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:39.559 screaming, sobbing. To this day, people debate 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:42.100 it. Was that the performance of a lifetime? Or 00:10:42.100 --> 00:10:44.659 was that the reality crashing down on a 21 -year 00:10:44.659 --> 00:10:46.899 -old who just blew his father's head off? And 00:10:46.899 --> 00:10:48.860 the police at the scene, they bought it. Hook, 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:51.460 line, and sinker. They walked into that room, 00:10:51.620 --> 00:10:54.460 saw the carnage. I mean, blood everywhere, brain 00:10:54.460 --> 00:10:56.919 matter on the walls. And they thought, mob hit. 00:10:57.200 --> 00:10:59.960 It looked like a professional, brutal message 00:10:59.960 --> 00:11:02.620 from a cartel. Which led to a critical error. 00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:04.799 A huge one. They didn't even test the brothers' 00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:07.240 hands for gunshot residue. Which is police work 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:10.019 101, isn't it? It is. If they had swabbed Lyle's 00:11:10.019 --> 00:11:11.840 hands that night, this case would have been over 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:14.559 in 24 hours. Instead, the brothers were treated 00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:17.840 as grieving victims. They were interviewed, comforted, 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:20.340 and sent on their way. They were free. And this 00:11:20.340 --> 00:11:23.059 brings us to the grieving period and the spendings 00:11:23.059 --> 00:11:25.909 free. Because if you just killed your parents 00:11:25.909 --> 00:11:28.809 to escape abuse, you might lay low, be in shock. 00:11:28.850 --> 00:11:31.789 If you kill them for money, well, you might go 00:11:31.789 --> 00:11:34.149 shopping. And go shopping they did. This is the 00:11:34.149 --> 00:11:36.570 greed argument in a nutshell. In the six months 00:11:36.570 --> 00:11:38.409 following the murders, while the police were 00:11:38.409 --> 00:11:41.529 chasing phantom mobsters, Lyle and Eric spent 00:11:41.529 --> 00:11:47.389 approximately $700 ,000. In 1989 dollars. That's 00:11:47.389 --> 00:11:49.529 like spending one and a half or two million today. 00:11:49.850 --> 00:11:52.750 What could two college -aged kids possibly buy? 00:11:53.179 --> 00:11:55.919 Well, Lyle bought a Porsche Carrera. He bought 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:58.940 three Rolex watches. And this is my favorite 00:11:58.940 --> 00:12:01.120 detail of his. He bought a restaurant. A restaurant. 00:12:01.220 --> 00:12:04.200 He was, what, 21? Yes. Chuck's Spring Street 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:06.820 Cafe in Princeton, New Jersey. He wanted to be 00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:08.799 a tycoon like his dad. He was playing businessman. 00:12:09.139 --> 00:12:11.139 And Eric, what was he spending his share on? 00:12:11.340 --> 00:12:13.799 Eric hired a full -time private tennis coach 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:17.100 for $50 ,000 a year. He was flying to Israel 00:12:17.100 --> 00:12:19.379 and Europe for tournaments. They bought adjoining 00:12:19.379 --> 00:12:21.779 condos in Marina del Rey. They were living the 00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:25.289 high life. Trips to the Caribbean, London. There's 00:12:25.289 --> 00:12:28.490 a photo you showed me earlier. A basketball card. 00:12:29.110 --> 00:12:32.169 It's such a bizarre artifact to this case. Yes. 00:12:32.269 --> 00:12:35.230 This is a legendary piece of trivia. It's a Mark 00:12:35.230 --> 00:12:38.809 Jackson NBA trading card from the 1989 -1990 00:12:38.809 --> 00:12:42.049 season. In the background, courtside at Madison 00:12:42.049 --> 00:12:45.029 Square Garden, you can clearly see Lyle and Eric 00:12:45.029 --> 00:12:47.779 Menendez sitting there. That is chilling. They're 00:12:47.779 --> 00:12:49.899 sitting there, spending the inheritance, watching 00:12:49.899 --> 00:12:51.940 the Knicks while the police are looking for their 00:12:51.940 --> 00:12:53.799 parents' killers. It highlights their arrogance. 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.679 They felt untouchable. But the walls were closing 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.500 in, and from two very different directions. First, 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.600 technology. Lyle had tried to wipe a file from 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:04.679 the family computer. What was the file? A new 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:07.700 will that Jose had apparently drafted, which 00:13:07.700 --> 00:13:10.419 might have disinherited them. Lyle tried to delete 00:13:10.419 --> 00:13:13.200 it. Which screams motive. Right. But the real 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.200 smoking gun, the thing that blew it all open, 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:17.720 came from a place of trust. Eric started seeing 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:20.679 a psychologist, Dr. Jerome Oziel. And he confessed. 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:23.700 On tape. He did. He confessed everything. But 00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:26.039 here's the twist. Dr. Patient Privilege usually 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:28.820 protects that. But Dr. Oziel had a mistress, 00:13:29.139 --> 00:13:32.279 Judelon Smith. Of course he did. It's a Beverly 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:35.129 Hills soap opera. Oziel told Judalon about the 00:13:35.129 --> 00:13:38.129 confession, presumably to impress her or maybe 00:13:38.129 --> 00:13:40.029 because he was genuinely scared of the brothers. 00:13:40.309 --> 00:13:43.750 When Oziel and Judalon had a messy breakup, she 00:13:43.750 --> 00:13:46.870 went to the cops. A scorned lover. She blew the 00:13:46.870 --> 00:13:49.330 case wide open. She told them everything. The 00:13:49.330 --> 00:13:51.669 police got a warrant for the tapes and that was 00:13:51.669 --> 00:13:55.009 it. So when were they arrested? Lyle was arrested 00:13:55.009 --> 00:13:58.690 at the mansion on March 8, 1990. Eric was actually 00:13:58.690 --> 00:14:01.470 in Israel playing tennis. He flew back to L .A. 00:14:01.490 --> 00:14:04.110 and surrendered on March 11. So they are in custody. 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:07.899 The grieving orphans mask is off. And now we 00:14:07.899 --> 00:14:11.200 enter the 1990s, the era of the TV trial. The 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:13.100 tale of two trials. And this is where the narrative 00:14:13.100 --> 00:14:15.299 war really began. Before we get to the courtroom, 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:16.820 though, I want to applause on the defense strategy, 00:14:17.019 --> 00:14:18.639 because up until the trial, everyone thought 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:21.779 greed. How do they pivot to abuse? That came 00:14:21.779 --> 00:14:24.200 later, right? It did. That was the masterstroke 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:26.240 of Leslie Abramson, Eric's defense attorney. 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:28.860 She realized they couldn't deny the killing. 00:14:29.179 --> 00:14:31.740 The confession tape existed even if they were 00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:34.080 fighting its admissibility. So they had to explain. 00:14:34.250 --> 00:14:37.509 why. And the why was imperfect self -defense. 00:14:38.950 --> 00:14:41.210 Can you break that down for us non -lawyers? 00:14:41.409 --> 00:14:44.570 Sure. Perfect self -defense is you have a gun 00:14:44.570 --> 00:14:47.809 pointed at me, I shoot you. Justified. Acquittal. 00:14:47.990 --> 00:14:50.710 Imperfect self -defense is I genuinely believe 00:14:50.710 --> 00:14:52.970 you are about to kill me, even if that belief 00:14:52.970 --> 00:14:55.370 is unreasonable or maybe wrong, and I shoot you 00:14:55.370 --> 00:14:57.929 out of that genuine fear. So if the jury buys 00:14:57.929 --> 00:15:00.750 that, it's not murder one. Correct. It drops 00:15:00.750 --> 00:15:03.649 the charge to voluntary manslaughter, which carries 00:15:03.649 --> 00:15:06.049 a much, much lighter sentence. That was the goal. 00:15:06.190 --> 00:15:09.289 To prove they lived in a state of terror so profound 00:15:09.289 --> 00:15:11.470 that killing their parents felt like the only 00:15:11.470 --> 00:15:16.309 way to survive. OK, so trial one, 1993. Court 00:15:16.309 --> 00:15:19.529 TV is born. The entire nation is glued to the 00:15:19.529 --> 00:15:22.100 screen. It was a circus. The defense painted 00:15:22.100 --> 00:15:24.460 this picture of the house of horrors. They claim 00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:26.860 Jose was a sadistic pedophile who had molested 00:15:26.860 --> 00:15:29.279 the boys for years. They claimed Kitty was a 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:31.860 broken, drug -addicted enabler who knew and did 00:15:31.860 --> 00:15:34.000 nothing to stop it. And the prosecution's response? 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:36.179 The prosecution said this is a complete fabrication. 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:38.860 They pointed to the Oziel tapes and said, look, 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:40.899 in these tapes, when you first confessed, you 00:15:40.899 --> 00:15:42.919 never mentioned sexual abuse. You only talked 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:44.639 about hating your dad and wanting the money. 00:15:44.860 --> 00:15:47.019 So they argued the abuse story was invented for 00:15:47.019 --> 00:15:50.019 the trial. Exactly. They argued it was fabricated 00:15:50.019 --> 00:15:52.340 after they got caught, specifically to fit the 00:15:52.340 --> 00:15:54.620 legal defense that Abramson had designed. But 00:15:54.620 --> 00:15:56.679 the defense did have a witness, right? A cousin. 00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:59.840 They did. Diane Vandermolen. She testified that 00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:02.139 Lyle had told her about sexual abuse back in 00:16:02.139 --> 00:16:04.500 the 70s when he was a little boy. That was huge 00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:07.299 for the defense. It was outside corroboration. 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.379 But then you had these bizarre, specific... claims 00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:13.039 that were harder to prove. Right, like the cinnamon 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:16.360 story. Eric testified that he used to put cinnamon 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:19.360 in his father's tea to mask the taste of semen 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:21.919 he was forced to ingest. The prosecution brought 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:24.879 in taste experts to say cinnamon is a distinct, 00:16:25.019 --> 00:16:28.059 powerful flavor. It doesn't mask anything. That's 00:16:28.059 --> 00:16:31.820 a lie. It became this gritty, granular, and frankly 00:16:31.820 --> 00:16:34.240 kind of gross debate over the mechanics of abuse. 00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:36.460 And in the end, what was the result of that first 00:16:36.460 --> 00:16:39.000 trial? Total deadlock. They had two separate 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.820 juries one for lyle one for eric both juries 00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:45.759 were hung hung juries wow and it was split right 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.460 down gender lines which is fascinating the women 00:16:48.460 --> 00:16:50.659 on the juries tended to believe the abuse and 00:16:50.659 --> 00:16:53.200 voted for manslaughter the men on the juries 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:55.539 saw the shotguns and the spending and voted for 00:16:55.539 --> 00:16:57.799 murder mistrial so let's do it all over again 00:16:57.799 --> 00:17:01.460 but the second trial That was a different ballgame. 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:05.559 Night and day. It starts in 1995. The O .J. Simpson 00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:07.920 trial had just happened. And the public and the 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.359 judiciary were frankly sick of celebrity justice 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:13.259 circuses. No cameras. No cameras. And critically. 00:17:13.869 --> 00:17:17.230 The judge, Judge Weisberg, severely restricted 00:17:17.230 --> 00:17:19.029 the abuse testimony. He wouldn't let them talk 00:17:19.029 --> 00:17:20.970 about it. Not in the same way. He said, unless 00:17:20.970 --> 00:17:23.069 you can prove you were in immediate danger at 00:17:23.069 --> 00:17:25.569 the very moment of the shooting, the long history 00:17:25.569 --> 00:17:27.930 of abuse is largely irrelevant to the charge 00:17:27.930 --> 00:17:30.109 of murder. He basically handcuffed the defense. 00:17:30.750 --> 00:17:32.849 Lyle didn't even testify in the second trial. 00:17:33.049 --> 00:17:35.789 So without that whole emotional narrative of 00:17:35.789 --> 00:17:38.309 the abuse, what was left for the jury to consider? 00:17:38.509 --> 00:17:41.859 Just the cold, hard facts. Buying guns. Using 00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:44.539 fake IDs, reloading the shotgun, going to the 00:17:44.539 --> 00:17:47.279 festival, eating ice cream, the spending spree, 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:50.259 the Porsche, the Rolexes. And that was enough. 00:17:50.500 --> 00:17:53.319 It was more than enough. Convicted, both of them. 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:55.579 Two counts of first -degree murder with special 00:17:55.579 --> 00:17:58.539 circumstances. The main one being lying in wait. 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.519 And the sentence. Life in prison without the 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:04.559 possibility of parole. And for almost 30 years, 00:18:04.779 --> 00:18:07.559 that felt like the end. They went to prison. 00:18:07.660 --> 00:18:10.400 The world moved on. They exhausted their appeals 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:15.519 by 2005. They were just inmates. Case closed. 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:18.960 Until 2023. This is where the story wakes up 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.339 again, and in a big way. What happened in 2023? 00:18:21.579 --> 00:18:23.880 What changed after all that time? Two crucial 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:26.200 pieces of evidence emerged that the defense argued 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:28.640 fundamentally changed the game. The first was 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:31.220 the Menudo connection. Menudo, like the boy band 00:18:31.220 --> 00:18:34.309 from the 80s. The very same. Roy Rossolo, a former 00:18:34.309 --> 00:18:36.230 member of the band Menudo, went on the Today 00:18:36.230 --> 00:18:39.490 Show in April 2023. He alleged that when he was 00:18:39.490 --> 00:18:42.170 14 years old, he was drugged and raped by Jose 00:18:42.170 --> 00:18:45.230 Menendez. Whoa. Remember, Jose was an executive 00:18:45.230 --> 00:18:48.289 at RCA, their record label. This is a bombshell. 00:18:48.609 --> 00:18:51.049 Because the prosecution's whole case in the 90s 00:18:51.049 --> 00:18:53.630 was, Jose wasn't a monster, the boys made it 00:18:53.630 --> 00:18:56.500 all up. Exactly. This corroborates a pattern 00:18:56.500 --> 00:18:59.380 of predatory behavior. If he did this to a 14 00:18:59.380 --> 00:19:02.299 -year -old employee, it makes the claims of him 00:19:02.299 --> 00:19:04.900 doing it to his sons infinitely more plausible. 00:19:05.259 --> 00:19:08.319 It destroys the fantasy argument from the second 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:10.779 trial. Okay, that's huge. And what was the second 00:19:10.779 --> 00:19:13.960 piece of evidence? The Canoe letter. This was 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:16.640 a letter found by a family member in 2018, but 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.660 it really hit the legal filings in 2023. It's 00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:21.700 a letter written by Eric to his cousin, Andy 00:19:21.700 --> 00:19:24.309 Canoe. The key thing is when it was written. 00:19:24.470 --> 00:19:27.190 How was that? 1988 months before the murder. 00:19:27.349 --> 00:19:29.869 What did it say? In the letter, Eric explicitly 00:19:29.869 --> 00:19:32.309 references the abuse happening at that time. 00:19:32.390 --> 00:19:34.630 He writes about his fear of his father, about 00:19:34.630 --> 00:19:36.690 what's happening in the house. So that just kills 00:19:36.690 --> 00:19:38.829 the prosecution's argument that they made it 00:19:38.829 --> 00:19:40.930 all up after the arrest. It's contemporaneous 00:19:40.930 --> 00:19:43.250 evidence. It proves the state of mind, the fear. 00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:45.430 It existed long before the crime was committed. 00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:48.049 So armed with these two new pieces of evidence, 00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:51.430 the defense filed a habeas corpus petition. Habeas 00:19:51.430 --> 00:19:54.039 corpus. is meaning you have the body basically 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:56.440 challenging the legality of their imprisonment. 00:19:56.500 --> 00:20:00.259 Yes. They argued that if this new evidence had 00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:02.980 been heard in the second trial. The verdict would 00:20:02.980 --> 00:20:04.720 have been different. It would have been manslaughter, 00:20:04.819 --> 00:20:08.440 not murder. And then you had a major political 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.339 shift. George Gascon. The L .A. District Attorney 00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:14.460 George Gaston reviewed this in October of 2024. 00:20:14.900 --> 00:20:17.859 And Gascon was known as a progressive reformer. 00:20:17.900 --> 00:20:20.859 Right. And he looked at the case and said, essentially, 00:20:21.019 --> 00:20:23.799 I believe them. He cited the dysfunction, the 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:26.839 molestation allegations from Rossello. He recommended 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:29.579 resentencing. He argued that manslaughter was 00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:32.559 the appropriate charge all along. But then, just 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:34.940 like in the 90s, the political winds shifted 00:20:34.940 --> 00:20:38.009 again. Gascon lost his reelection. The new DA, 00:20:38.170 --> 00:20:40.569 Nathan Hockman, came in. He was much more of 00:20:40.569 --> 00:20:43.309 a tough on crime prosecutor. He opposed the petition, 00:20:43.589 --> 00:20:46.569 calling the self -defense claims lies. But the 00:20:46.569 --> 00:20:48.609 train had already left the station. The legal 00:20:48.609 --> 00:20:51.130 process Gascon started was still moving. It was 00:20:51.130 --> 00:20:53.170 moving toward a judge. And that brings us to 00:20:53.170 --> 00:20:55.869 2025, the year of the roller coaster. Let's break 00:20:55.869 --> 00:20:58.109 down the mechanics of what happened last May, 00:20:58.230 --> 00:20:59.549 because I think this is where a lot of people 00:20:59.549 --> 00:21:01.819 got confused. OK, this is the legal pivot point. 00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:05.579 In May 2025, a judge officially resentenced Lyle 00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:08.859 and Eric Menendez. The new sentence was 50 years 00:21:08.859 --> 00:21:11.259 to life. Now, hold on. They've served about 35 00:21:11.259 --> 00:21:13.900 years at this point. If the sentence is 50 years 00:21:13.900 --> 00:21:16.079 to life, shouldn't they still have 15 years left? 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:18.180 Why did everyone think they were getting out 00:21:18.180 --> 00:21:20.759 immediately? Because of a specific California 00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:23.859 law regarding youth offenders. This is where 00:21:23.859 --> 00:21:25.539 it gets technical, but it's really fascinating. 00:21:25.700 --> 00:21:28.180 OK. Because they were under 26 years old at the 00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:31.430 time of the murders. Lyle was 21. Eric was 18. 00:21:32.329 --> 00:21:34.730 The law now views their brain development differently 00:21:34.730 --> 00:21:37.430 than it did in 1989. The idea that a 20 year 00:21:37.430 --> 00:21:39.970 old brain isn't fully formed, less impulse control, 00:21:40.130 --> 00:21:42.849 that kind of thing. Exactly. So under these new 00:21:42.849 --> 00:21:45.069 statutes, if you committed a crime under age 00:21:45.069 --> 00:21:47.829 26, you are eligible for a parole hearing after 00:21:47.829 --> 00:21:50.150 serving 25 years, regardless of a nominal sentence 00:21:50.150 --> 00:21:53.069 length. They had already served 35. So the resentencing 00:21:53.069 --> 00:21:56.130 wasn't a get out of jail free card. No, it was 00:21:56.130 --> 00:21:59.069 a become eligible for parole immediately card. 00:21:59.190 --> 00:22:02.039 The sentence of 50 to life effectively. became 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:05.099 time served plus eligible for parole. So the 00:22:05.099 --> 00:22:07.500 resentencing was the key that unlocked the door. 00:22:07.900 --> 00:22:10.000 All they had to do was walk through it at the 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.460 parole hearing. They had to walk through the 00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:13.480 parole board. And that is a very, very different 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:15.660 room than a courtroom. Right. The court looks 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:17.579 at the crime. Was it murder or manslaughter back 00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:19.920 in 1989? The parole board looks at the person 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:22.940 today. Are you rehabilitated? Are you a risk? 00:22:23.099 --> 00:22:26.420 Correct. And that brings us to August 2025. The 00:22:26.420 --> 00:22:29.400 hype was unbelievable. Social media was counting 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.680 down the days. Everyone thought this was a formality. 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:35.039 Let's talk about Eric's hearing first. August 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:38.279 21st, 2025. What was his prison record like? 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:41.319 Eric's record, by all accounts, was a model of 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:44.740 rehabilitation. He leads meditation groups. He 00:22:44.740 --> 00:22:46.900 works in the prison hospice with terminally ill 00:22:46.900 --> 00:22:50.119 inmates. He has painted murals. He is the definition 00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:53.000 of a rehabilitated prisoner on paper. So what 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:55.400 on earth happened? He was denied. The board cited 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:58.799 ongoing rule violations and concerns about public 00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:01.579 safety. That feels incredibly vague. What violations? 00:23:02.269 --> 00:23:04.009 It is vague. And that's the thing about parole 00:23:04.009 --> 00:23:06.730 boards. They have immense discretion. They can 00:23:06.730 --> 00:23:08.910 look at very small infractions from years ago 00:23:08.910 --> 00:23:11.309 and say, this shows a lack of respect for authority. 00:23:11.930 --> 00:23:14.869 Ultimately, they felt he hadn't fully taken responsibility 00:23:14.869 --> 00:23:17.089 or addressed the root causes of his violence 00:23:17.089 --> 00:23:20.369 despite the decades of therapy. Wow. OK, so Eric 00:23:20.369 --> 00:23:24.099 is denied and then Lyle. The next day, August 00:23:24.099 --> 00:23:27.319 22nd, Lyle was also denied. But for him, the 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:29.460 reason was much more concrete. And frankly, it's 00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:31.299 frustrating for his supporters because it feels 00:23:31.299 --> 00:23:34.900 so avoidable. Who was? Repeated cell phone infractions. 00:23:34.900 --> 00:23:36.799 Cell phones. They're in prison because of cell 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.940 phones. In prison, a cell phone is major contraband. 00:23:39.980 --> 00:23:42.579 It's a huge security risk. Lyle has a history 00:23:42.579 --> 00:23:44.519 of getting caught with them. He uses them to 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:47.059 talk to his family, to advocates, to participate 00:23:47.059 --> 00:23:50.000 in his own defense. But the board looked at that 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.500 and said, you know the rules. You keep breaking 00:23:53.500 --> 00:23:56.180 them. If you can't follow the simple rule about 00:23:56.180 --> 00:23:58.880 a phone inside, how can we possibly trust you 00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.039 to follow the complex laws of society outside? 00:24:01.339 --> 00:24:04.240 That is a brutal irony. The court acknowledges 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:07.259 the abuse, lowers the sentence, basically says 00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:09.960 justice has been served, but he stays in prison 00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:11.700 because he wanted to make phone calls. It highlights 00:24:11.700 --> 00:24:13.900 the dual nature of our system. You have to win 00:24:13.900 --> 00:24:16.460 the legal argument about the past, but you also 00:24:16.460 --> 00:24:18.819 have to win the behavioral argument about the 00:24:18.819 --> 00:24:21.599 present. Lyle failed the behavioral test in the 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:24.759 eyes of the board. So as of today, February 2026, 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:27.619 they are back to square one. Not square one exactly, 00:24:27.819 --> 00:24:30.200 but they are in a holding pattern. They remain 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:33.299 incarcerated. Their next eligible parole hearing 00:24:33.299 --> 00:24:36.380 is set for 2028. Three more years of waiting. 00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:39.119 I want to pivot a bit here to the personal side, 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:41.519 because despite being locked up for three and 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:43.759 a half decades, these guys haven't lived in total 00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:47.079 isolation. They've had surprisingly full. personal 00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:49.640 lives in a way. They have. It's one of the stranger 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:52.259 aspects of the case. They both got married in 00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:54.660 prison. To women on the outside who they met 00:24:54.660 --> 00:24:57.079 after they were incarcerated. Yes. Lyle has actually 00:24:57.079 --> 00:24:59.660 been married twice. He married a pen pal Anna 00:24:59.660 --> 00:25:03.279 Erickson in 1996. They had a ceremony over the 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:05.819 telephone. Telephone wedding. They divorced in 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:07.880 2001 because she found out he was writing to 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:10.279 another woman. Even in maximum security prison 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:12.940 there's infidelity drama. Chuckles, exactly. 00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:17.680 Then in 2003, he married Rebecca Sneed in a prison 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:20.460 visiting area. Though it's worth noting in the 00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:23.599 lead up to the 2025 hearings, the sources say 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:28.079 they separated back in 2024. And Eric, his marriage 00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:30.500 seems more stable. Eric's marriage is fascinating. 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:34.119 He married Tammy Sackman in 1999. They got married 00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:36.460 in the Folsom prison waiting room. And I have 00:25:36.460 --> 00:25:37.980 to ask about the wedding cake. I read this in 00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:40.160 the notes. The wedding cake was a Twinkie. A 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.900 tweaky. You work with what you have. But jokes 00:25:42.900 --> 00:25:46.180 aside, Tammy has been incredibly steadfast. She 00:25:46.180 --> 00:25:48.059 wrote a book about their relationship. They said 00:25:48.059 --> 00:25:51.420 we'd never make it. She drives 150 miles every 00:25:51.420 --> 00:25:53.599 single weekend to visit him. They've maintained 00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:56.160 a relationship for over 25 years without ever 00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:58.240 being able to live together. That's dedication. 00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:00.920 It speaks to a profound connection, whatever 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:04.160 you think of the crime. It also speaks to the 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:07.440 human ability to normalize almost anything. But 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:10.809 let's zoom out. The culture has shifted so dramatically 00:26:10.809 --> 00:26:13.069 around them. In the 90s, they were pariahs, they 00:26:13.069 --> 00:26:15.609 were monsters. What happened in the last few 00:26:15.609 --> 00:26:17.839 years to change that? The Menendez movement, 00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:20.720 and it was almost entirely driven by Gen Z and 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.180 TikTok. This is a generation that didn't watch 00:26:23.180 --> 00:26:26.299 court TV in 1993. They watched the Netflix series 00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:29.980 Monsters in 2024. They saw short emotional clips 00:26:29.980 --> 00:26:32.859 of the abuse testimony on their phones, completely 00:26:32.859 --> 00:26:34.900 decontextualized from the rest of the trial. 00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:37.400 So they saw the victims, not the killers. Right. 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:39.400 And then you had these high profile figures like 00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:41.319 Kim Kardashian visiting them in prison, writing 00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:44.059 essays, advocating for their release. The narrative 00:26:44.059 --> 00:26:47.059 completely flipped from greed. greedy sociopaths 00:26:47.059 --> 00:26:49.940 to traumatized survivors who snapped. It's interesting 00:26:49.940 --> 00:26:52.700 how generational that divide is. My parents still 00:26:52.700 --> 00:26:54.480 see them as the guys who bought Rolexes with 00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:56.779 blood money. The younger generation sees them 00:26:56.779 --> 00:26:59.099 as victims of a justice system that didn't understand 00:26:59.099 --> 00:27:02.450 trauma or male sexual abuse in the 90s. That's 00:27:02.450 --> 00:27:05.009 the core tension of this entire saga. And the 00:27:05.009 --> 00:27:08.009 parole board denial in August 2025 was a huge 00:27:08.009 --> 00:27:11.069 splash of cold water on that new movement. It 00:27:11.069 --> 00:27:13.509 was a reminder that Internet popularity and hashtags 00:27:13.509 --> 00:27:15.990 don't equate to legal freedom. The board doesn't 00:27:15.990 --> 00:27:19.049 care how many views a TikTok gets. So what does 00:27:19.049 --> 00:27:21.269 this all mean? We've looked at the murders, the 00:27:21.269 --> 00:27:23.549 abuse, the trials, the new evidence and the parole 00:27:23.549 --> 00:27:26.410 denial. When you step back and look at this 37 00:27:26.410 --> 00:27:30.309 year saga, what is the takeaway for you? I think 00:27:30.309 --> 00:27:32.529 it's about the complexity of justice. The legal 00:27:32.529 --> 00:27:35.089 system is, believe it or not, capable of correcting 00:27:35.089 --> 00:27:37.329 itself. We saw that with the resentencing. The 00:27:37.329 --> 00:27:40.210 system acknowledged the abuse context. It effectively 00:27:40.210 --> 00:27:43.170 said, we got the sentence wrong in the 90s. Life 00:27:43.170 --> 00:27:45.190 without parole was too harsh given this evidence. 00:27:45.529 --> 00:27:47.470 That is a victory for the system. There's a big 00:27:47.470 --> 00:27:50.150 but. But it's also a rigid system that demands 00:27:50.150 --> 00:27:53.869 compliance. The parole denial reminds us that 00:27:53.869 --> 00:27:56.150 while the cause of a crime matters, the behavior 00:27:56.150 --> 00:27:58.630 of the individual post crime matters just as 00:27:58.630 --> 00:28:01.049 much, if not more, to the people holding the 00:28:01.049 --> 00:28:04.250 keys. You can't separate the abuse from the murders, 00:28:04.349 --> 00:28:06.410 but you also can't separate the prisoner from 00:28:06.410 --> 00:28:09.470 the prison rules. It's all one messy, complicated 00:28:09.470 --> 00:28:12.849 package. It's just tragic all around. A family 00:28:12.849 --> 00:28:16.289 was destroyed in 1989. Two parents dead in a 00:28:16.289 --> 00:28:19.869 horrific, brutal way. Two sons whose lives effectively 00:28:19.869 --> 00:28:23.369 stopped at age 18 and 21. And now two men in 00:28:23.369 --> 00:28:25.789 their late 50s still waiting for a door to open 00:28:25.789 --> 00:28:27.470 that they thought was already unlocked. And we 00:28:27.470 --> 00:28:29.730 will all be watching again in 2028 to see if 00:28:29.730 --> 00:28:31.549 it finally does. Before we go, I want to leave 00:28:31.549 --> 00:28:33.430 our listeners with a final question. It's something 00:28:33.430 --> 00:28:35.369 I've been wrestling with while prepping this 00:28:35.369 --> 00:28:38.029 deep dive. Go for it. Can a narrative ever truly 00:28:38.029 --> 00:28:40.630 be rewritten? We have the Menudo testimony now. 00:28:40.690 --> 00:28:42.970 We have the Cano letter. We understand the context 00:28:42.970 --> 00:28:45.930 of the abuse in a way the jury in 1996 did not. 00:28:46.109 --> 00:28:48.789 But we also have the unchangeable brutality of 00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:51.809 the act. The shotguns, the reloading, the final 00:28:51.809 --> 00:28:54.410 shot to Kitty's face. Are some crimes simply 00:28:54.410 --> 00:28:56.769 too brutal to ever fully forgive, regardless 00:28:56.769 --> 00:28:59.549 of the cause? Is there a line between an explanation 00:28:59.549 --> 00:29:03.230 and an excuse that we are still, as a society, 00:29:03.450 --> 00:29:05.880 afraid to draw? That is the ultimate question 00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.299 here. At what point does the reason for the violence 00:29:08.299 --> 00:29:11.079 stop justifying the violence itself? I don't 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:12.980 think we have a clear answer for that yet. And 00:29:12.980 --> 00:29:15.259 the Menendez case is ground zero for that debate. 00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:17.599 Something to think about. That's it for this 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:19.400 week's Deep Dive. We'll be watching closely as 00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:21.980 2028 approaches. Until then, stay curious. And 00:29:21.980 --> 00:29:23.240 stay critical. See you next time.