WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.660 OK, let's let's just jump right in. There's a 00:00:02.660 --> 00:00:05.780 word out there that honestly, it acts like a 00:00:05.780 --> 00:00:07.879 conversational grenade. Oh, absolutely. You drop 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:09.480 it into a discussion. Maybe you're at dinner. 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:11.619 Maybe you're just chatting with coworkers and 00:00:11.619 --> 00:00:13.679 everything just stops. The whole temperature 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:15.960 of the room changes. It does. And everyone thinks 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:18.579 they know exactly what you mean. The word immediately 00:00:18.579 --> 00:00:22.980 brings up these, you know, these really vivid, 00:00:23.059 --> 00:00:26.350 usually. Pretty terrifying images. Matching robes 00:00:26.350 --> 00:00:28.609 for sure. Matching robes, isolated compounds 00:00:28.609 --> 00:00:30.750 out in the middle of nowhere. Charismatic leaders 00:00:30.750 --> 00:00:33.630 who, for some reason, are always wearing sunglasses 00:00:33.630 --> 00:00:37.009 indoors. And maybe a spaceship hiding behind 00:00:37.009 --> 00:00:39.649 a comet. That's a classic. Right. It's arguably 00:00:39.649 --> 00:00:42.670 one of the most loaded words we have. It carries 00:00:42.670 --> 00:00:45.609 a weight that very few other words do. I'm talking, 00:00:45.670 --> 00:00:49.170 of course, about the word cult. It is the bread 00:00:49.170 --> 00:00:51.729 and butter of true crime, of endless podcast 00:00:51.729 --> 00:00:55.189 series, of hushed gossip. If you call something 00:00:55.189 --> 00:00:57.570 a cult, you're not just describing it. No, you're 00:00:57.570 --> 00:01:00.229 condemning it. You're condemning it. You're saying 00:01:00.229 --> 00:01:03.270 this thing is dangerous, it's irrational, and 00:01:03.270 --> 00:01:05.430 the people inside have completely lost their 00:01:05.430 --> 00:01:08.049 minds. But here's the thing that gets really 00:01:08.049 --> 00:01:10.750 complicated and honestly a little frustrating 00:01:10.750 --> 00:01:13.790 when you dig in. When you actually try to pin 00:01:13.790 --> 00:01:17.170 down what a cult is, I mean, from a strict legal 00:01:17.170 --> 00:01:20.709 or sociological standpoint, the whole concept. 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:22.879 It just starts to slip through your fingers. 00:01:22.939 --> 00:01:25.120 It does. It's incredibly elusive. Right. And 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:27.500 that's not just because the groups themselves 00:01:27.500 --> 00:01:30.299 can be secretive, though that's part of it. Right. 00:01:30.379 --> 00:01:32.879 It's because the word cult itself is what the 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:35.480 scholar Susanna Crockford calls a shapeshifter. 00:01:36.019 --> 00:01:38.480 Shapeshifter. Yeah. She argues that, you know, 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:41.819 as an analytical term, it resists any kind of 00:01:41.819 --> 00:01:44.200 rigorous definition. It just semantically morphs 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:46.540 depending on who's using it and why. OK, that's 00:01:46.540 --> 00:01:48.400 a great image. Let's drill into that for a second. 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:51.349 A shapeshifter changes its. form to suit its 00:01:51.349 --> 00:01:54.090 needs so you're saying the word cult puts on 00:01:54.090 --> 00:01:55.709 a different costume depending on who's shouting 00:01:55.709 --> 00:01:58.189 it precisely just think about the different people 00:01:58.189 --> 00:02:02.030 involved for a concerned parent a cult is this 00:02:02.030 --> 00:02:05.250 group that's taking their kid away right changing 00:02:05.250 --> 00:02:07.269 their personality convincing them to drop out 00:02:07.269 --> 00:02:09.610 of school the family is the victim right but 00:02:09.610 --> 00:02:12.210 for a government a cult might be a group that's 00:02:12.210 --> 00:02:15.629 uh challenging state authority. They're not paying 00:02:15.629 --> 00:02:18.449 taxes. Maybe they're stockpiling weapons. A threat 00:02:18.449 --> 00:02:20.349 to the state. A threat to the state. And then 00:02:20.349 --> 00:02:23.469 for a theologian, a pastor, a cult is something 00:02:23.469 --> 00:02:26.069 else entirely. It's heresy. It's a group that's 00:02:26.069 --> 00:02:28.590 misinterpreting the holy book. So the parent 00:02:28.590 --> 00:02:31.550 sees danger, the government sees sedition, and 00:02:31.550 --> 00:02:34.750 the priest sees a theological error. But they're 00:02:34.750 --> 00:02:36.930 all using the same four -letter word. Exactly. 00:02:37.110 --> 00:02:39.009 And that's the central tension we're going to 00:02:39.009 --> 00:02:43.289 explore. Cult is almost never a neutral, descriptive 00:02:43.289 --> 00:02:46.189 label. It's a weapon. It's a weapon. When you 00:02:46.189 --> 00:02:48.370 use it, you're trying to delegitimize something. 00:02:48.990 --> 00:02:51.349 You're pushing it outside the circle of what 00:02:51.349 --> 00:02:53.810 we consider normal or acceptable. Which makes 00:02:53.810 --> 00:02:57.569 our job today pretty difficult. The whole mission 00:02:57.569 --> 00:02:59.830 for this deep dive is to try and disarm that 00:02:59.830 --> 00:03:01.780 weapon. Or at least, you know, take it apart 00:03:01.780 --> 00:03:03.719 to see how it works. Lay the pieces out on the 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:05.900 table. Yeah. We're going to try to strip away 00:03:05.900 --> 00:03:08.400 all the sensationalism, the whole Netflix documentary 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:11.340 vibe, and actually look at the sociology, the 00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:14.780 psychology, and the really fascinating legal 00:03:14.780 --> 00:03:17.259 battles that surround these high control groups. 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:19.840 We've got a huge stack of sources today. I mean, 00:03:19.860 --> 00:03:22.539 everything from the history of the word itself 00:03:22.539 --> 00:03:26.180 to how governments from the U .S. to China classify 00:03:26.180 --> 00:03:27.740 these groups. And we're going to look at some 00:03:27.740 --> 00:03:30.560 unexpected places this logic shows up. Because 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:32.840 if we just stick to the robes and compounds image, 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:35.280 we miss the bigger picture. We're going to talk 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.819 about political movements and I think most surprisingly 00:03:37.819 --> 00:03:40.479 for a lot of people, the corporate world. OK, 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:42.580 that's the part that really made me stop and 00:03:42.580 --> 00:03:45.280 reread the notes. The idea that my, you know, 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:49.219 standard fluorescent lit nine to five job. might, 00:03:49.300 --> 00:03:51.740 under certain definitions, actually qualify. 00:03:52.099 --> 00:03:54.139 Or at the very least, it might be using some 00:03:54.139 --> 00:03:56.539 of the exact same psychological mechanisms to 00:03:56.539 --> 00:03:58.780 keep you loyal and productive. That's terrifying. 00:03:59.060 --> 00:04:01.139 But okay, before we get to the boardroom, we 00:04:01.139 --> 00:04:03.520 have to start with a history. Because this word, 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:06.180 believe it or not, did not always mean scary 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:08.659 group of brainwashed people. Not at all. If we 00:04:08.659 --> 00:04:11.080 go back far enough, calling someone part of a 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:16.860 cult was... What? A compliment? Or at least just 00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:19.079 a neutral description. If we go all the way back, 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:22.740 the Latin root is cultus. And cultus simply means 00:04:22.740 --> 00:04:25.560 worship. It's related to words like cultivate, 00:04:25.819 --> 00:04:29.560 as in a garden or culture. Cultivate. That sounds 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:33.000 so benign. It sounds like you're just tending 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:34.579 to something. And that's essentially what it 00:04:34.579 --> 00:04:38.360 meant. Care, tending, devotion. In ancient Rome, 00:04:38.459 --> 00:04:40.720 being part of a cult was completely normal. In 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:43.139 fact, it was often your civic duty. Really? Yeah, 00:04:43.220 --> 00:04:45.399 you had the imperial cult, which was the set 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:47.660 of rituals and devotional practices directed 00:04:47.660 --> 00:04:50.139 at the emperor. So I feel Roman senator. I wake 00:04:50.139 --> 00:04:52.079 up, put on my toga, and I say, honey, I'm off 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:53.860 to the cult. You wouldn't use the English word, 00:04:53.939 --> 00:04:55.600 but yeah, essentially. You were going to perform 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.060 your cultus. It didn't mean you were deviant 00:04:58.060 --> 00:05:00.500 or on the fringe. It just meant you were participating 00:05:00.500 --> 00:05:03.879 in the state -sanctioned religion. So the cult 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:05.839 was the mainstream. It was the mainstream. You 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:07.959 got into trouble if you didn't participate in 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:10.000 the imperial cult. That was seen as subversive. 00:05:10.060 --> 00:05:13.060 Okay, so when did the vibe shift? I mean, obviously 00:05:13.060 --> 00:05:15.759 we are not using it that way anymore. When did 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:19.920 it go from devotional practice to excessive dangerous 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:22.720 devotion? That shift really starts picking up 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:24.879 steam in the 19th century. That's when you start 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:27.199 to see the word used to mean excessive demotion. 00:05:27.540 --> 00:05:29.680 And it wasn't always religious. You might hear 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:31.899 about a cult of beauty or a cult of personality. 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:35.620 Okay, so more metaphorical use. Exactly. But 00:05:35.620 --> 00:05:37.860 the real weaponization of the term, the way we 00:05:37.860 --> 00:05:40.639 use it today to label a group as deviant and 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:43.620 dangerous, that's largely a 20th century thing. 00:05:43.660 --> 00:05:46.319 It became a convenient way for society to draw 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:48.680 a line in the sand. On this side is religion, 00:05:48.899 --> 00:05:52.529 which is good and safe. And on that side is cult, 00:05:52.769 --> 00:05:56.050 which is weird and foreign and threatening. But 00:05:56.050 --> 00:05:57.949 that line, I mean, if you look at it objectively, 00:05:58.189 --> 00:06:00.850 it's incredibly blurry, isn't it? One person's 00:06:00.850 --> 00:06:03.670 intense spiritual experience is another person's 00:06:03.670 --> 00:06:06.089 creepy ritual. That's the million dollar question. 00:06:06.269 --> 00:06:08.730 And because it's so subjective, it's a huge problem 00:06:08.730 --> 00:06:11.470 for scholars. Benjamin E. Zeller, who's a prominent 00:06:11.470 --> 00:06:13.730 researcher in this area, has a really scathing 00:06:13.730 --> 00:06:16.009 critique of how we use the word. What's he saying? 00:06:16.149 --> 00:06:19.790 He basically says. Labeling any group with which 00:06:19.790 --> 00:06:22.529 one disagrees and considers deviant as a cult 00:06:22.529 --> 00:06:25.769 is not scholarship. He's just calling it name 00:06:25.769 --> 00:06:28.470 calling. It's not science. It is. He's saying 00:06:28.470 --> 00:06:30.550 if you can't define it objectively, you can't 00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:33.569 study it objectively. If cult just means religion 00:06:33.569 --> 00:06:35.509 I don't like, then we're not learning anything 00:06:35.509 --> 00:06:38.329 about how these groups actually work. We're just 00:06:38.329 --> 00:06:40.709 learning about the prejudices of the person speaking. 00:06:41.029 --> 00:06:44.509 So if the word is basically useless for scholars, 00:06:44.670 --> 00:06:47.019 why are we still talking about it? Does it have 00:06:47.019 --> 00:06:49.540 any utility left at all? Well, Susanna Crockford, 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:51.379 who we mentioned earlier, she suggests what she 00:06:51.379 --> 00:06:53.939 calls the least subjective definition. And I 00:06:53.939 --> 00:06:56.420 think this is pretty useful. She says a cult 00:06:56.420 --> 00:06:58.480 is a group that is self -consciously building 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:01.240 a new form of society, which the rest of the 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.000 existing society rejects. Building a new form 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:05.959 of society. OK, that puts a different spin on 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:07.860 it. It's not just about worshiping a guy in a 00:07:07.860 --> 00:07:10.399 robe. It's about a total rejection of the status 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.019 quo. Right. They're trying to opt out of the 00:07:13.019 --> 00:07:15.319 current world and build their own distinct version. 00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:18.480 And because they're rejecting the existing society, 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:22.019 well, the existing society naturally rejects 00:07:22.019 --> 00:07:25.000 them right back. It's a feedback loop. A total 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.899 feedback loop. The more the group withdraws, 00:07:27.899 --> 00:07:30.240 the more society attacks it. The more society 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:32.379 attacks, the more the group withdraws and becomes 00:07:32.379 --> 00:07:35.899 more extreme. But because the word cult became 00:07:35.899 --> 00:07:38.910 so radioactive, scholars in the... what, the 00:07:38.910 --> 00:07:41.350 70s, they mostly abandoned it, right? They just 00:07:41.350 --> 00:07:43.089 realized they couldn't have a serious conversation. 00:07:43.389 --> 00:07:46.850 Using was basically an insult. They did. You'll 00:07:46.850 --> 00:07:49.430 almost never hear a modern sociologist use the 00:07:49.430 --> 00:07:52.490 word cult without heavy air quotes. The term 00:07:52.490 --> 00:07:55.329 that took over in academia is new religious movement. 00:07:55.709 --> 00:07:59.790 Or NRM. NRM. It sounds so sterile. It does. Mom, 00:07:59.889 --> 00:08:02.069 dad, I'm not joining a cult. I'm joining a new 00:08:02.069 --> 00:08:03.790 religious movement. It sounds like something 00:08:03.790 --> 00:08:06.089 you'd file paperwork for. It is clinical, but 00:08:06.089 --> 00:08:08.029 that's entirely the point. It's supposed to be 00:08:08.029 --> 00:08:10.589 neutral. It allows you to study a group's beliefs 00:08:10.589 --> 00:08:12.790 and behaviors without starting from the assumption 00:08:12.790 --> 00:08:14.870 that they're evil. And this isn't just about 00:08:14.870 --> 00:08:17.870 being polite or academic, is it? The label itself 00:08:17.870 --> 00:08:21.449 can have real world dangerous consequences. Oh, 00:08:21.449 --> 00:08:24.110 absolutely. The religious scholar Catherine Wessinger 00:08:24.110 --> 00:08:28.449 argues that the cult label is dehumanizing and 00:08:28.449 --> 00:08:30.990 that dehumanization can be fatal. You're talking 00:08:30.990 --> 00:08:33.330 about Waco, aren't you? Waco is the prime example. 00:08:33.409 --> 00:08:37.899 The siege of the Branch Davidians in 1993. Wessinger 00:08:37.899 --> 00:08:40.700 and other scholars argue that because the media, 00:08:40.779 --> 00:08:42.679 the government, everyone labeled them a cult, 00:08:42.860 --> 00:08:45.320 it created this narrative that the people inside 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:48.500 were not rational human beings. They were brainwashed 00:08:48.500 --> 00:08:50.980 zombies. And you don't negotiate with zombies. 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:53.320 You don't. If you believe the people inside are 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:55.740 mind controlled automatons, you assume they can't 00:08:55.740 --> 00:08:58.259 be reasoned with. You stop seeing them as families, 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:00.559 as mothers and children with non -mainstream 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:02.480 beliefs, and you start seeing them as a threat 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:06.100 to be neutralized. And that mindset, that escalation. 00:09:06.509 --> 00:09:08.669 contributed directly to the tragedy that led 00:09:08.669 --> 00:09:11.750 to so many deaths, including many children. That's 00:09:11.750 --> 00:09:14.950 a sobering thought. The label itself can become 00:09:14.950 --> 00:09:17.470 a catalyst for violence because it strips away 00:09:17.470 --> 00:09:20.230 all legitimacy. If they're a cult, they don't 00:09:20.230 --> 00:09:22.789 have rights. They have programming. It creates 00:09:22.789 --> 00:09:26.250 a permission structure for extreme action, whether 00:09:26.250 --> 00:09:29.210 that action is a government raid or on a smaller 00:09:29.210 --> 00:09:32.600 scale, a family. kidnapping their adult child 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:34.940 for deprogramming. Okay, let me play devil's 00:09:34.940 --> 00:09:37.379 advocate for a second. Please. I get the academic 00:09:37.379 --> 00:09:40.200 need for neutrality. New religious movement is 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:42.639 safer. But if I'm walking down the street and 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:45.100 someone in a robe tries to sell me a flower and 00:09:45.100 --> 00:09:48.120 tells me the world is ending next Tuesday unless 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:50.440 I sign over my house, I'm not thinking, what 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:53.120 a fascinating NRM. Right, you're thinking cult. 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:55.460 I'm thinking cult. So if the experts aren't using 00:09:55.460 --> 00:09:57.759 the C word, how do they organize these groups? 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.240 Because they're not all the same, right? A bunch 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:02.759 of UFO enthusiasts isn't the same as a group 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:05.220 stockpiling nerve gas. You're absolutely right. 00:10:05.340 --> 00:10:08.080 And sociology has some really fascinating ways 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:10.899 of categorizing them that go beyond just good 00:10:10.899 --> 00:10:13.580 or bad. The classic model goes all the way back 00:10:13.580 --> 00:10:15.980 to the early 20th century with Max Weber and 00:10:15.980 --> 00:10:18.080 Ernst Troeltsch. They developed what's called 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.539 the church sect typology. All right, lay it on 00:10:20.539 --> 00:10:23.419 us. What's the difference between a church, a 00:10:23.419 --> 00:10:26.620 sect, and a cult in this sociological view? Okay, 00:10:26.659 --> 00:10:29.559 so imagine a continuum of tension with society. 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:32.600 On one end, with very low tension, you have the 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:34.639 church. The establishment. The establishment. 00:10:34.899 --> 00:10:38.019 It's large. It's bureaucratic. It's comfortable 00:10:38.019 --> 00:10:40.159 with the surrounding culture. You're usually 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:42.480 born into it. Think the Catholic Church or the 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:44.820 Church of England. Got it. Mainstream. Then you 00:10:44.820 --> 00:10:47.850 have the sect. Now, a sect is a splinter group. 00:10:47.970 --> 00:10:50.309 It breaks away from a main church because it 00:10:50.309 --> 00:10:52.590 believes the church has become too lenient, too 00:10:52.590 --> 00:10:56.470 worldly, too corrupt. So a sect is like a remix. 00:10:56.889 --> 00:10:59.350 It's using the same source material, the same 00:10:59.350 --> 00:11:01.669 holy book, but it's making it stricter, more 00:11:01.669 --> 00:11:05.029 intense. You guys aren't doing it right. We are 00:11:05.029 --> 00:11:07.190 the true believers. That is a perfect analogy. 00:11:07.549 --> 00:11:10.090 A sect maintains continuity with the traditional 00:11:10.090 --> 00:11:12.750 beliefs. It's a protest movement within that 00:11:12.750 --> 00:11:14.830 tradition. Okay, so where does the cult fit in? 00:11:15.129 --> 00:11:18.350 A cult, in this sociological definition, doesn't 00:11:18.350 --> 00:11:21.509 break off from anything. It starts fresh. It 00:11:21.509 --> 00:11:24.750 arises spontaneously around totally novel beliefs 00:11:24.750 --> 00:11:27.289 and a charismatic leader. So if the sect is a 00:11:27.289 --> 00:11:30.970 remix, the cult is a completely original composition. 00:11:31.090 --> 00:11:33.820 Yes. And usually a pretty avant -garde one that 00:11:33.820 --> 00:11:36.639 most people find strange. It introduces something 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:39.700 new, a new revelation, a new prophet from another 00:11:39.700 --> 00:11:42.659 planet, a new technique. Its inspiration comes 00:11:42.659 --> 00:11:44.960 from outside the dominant religious culture. 00:11:45.139 --> 00:11:47.860 And because of that, there's very high tension 00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:50.220 with society. That makes perfect sense. If you 00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:52.539 say, I'm interpreting the Bible more strictly, 00:11:52.779 --> 00:11:54.639 people might think you're intense, but they recognize 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:56.860 the book. Right. But if you say, I'm interpreting 00:11:56.860 --> 00:11:58.980 messages from the planet Clarion that I received 00:11:58.980 --> 00:12:01.509 through automatic writing. Yeah. People are going 00:12:01.509 --> 00:12:04.549 to back away slowly. Exactly. And that novelty 00:12:04.549 --> 00:12:07.029 is what defines them. Now, there's another typology 00:12:07.029 --> 00:12:09.250 that I find even more useful for understanding 00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:11.330 how these groups actually function day to day. 00:12:11.509 --> 00:12:13.970 It comes from the sociologists Bainbridge and 00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:16.929 Stark. They broke cults down into three specific 00:12:16.929 --> 00:12:19.470 types based on how much they demand from you. 00:12:19.830 --> 00:12:22.649 And this really helps distinguish the harmless 00:12:22.649 --> 00:12:25.210 stuff from the really high control stuff. I love 00:12:25.210 --> 00:12:27.149 a good classification system. Let's hear it. 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:30.320 OK, the first and lowest commitment type is the 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:33.139 audience cult. This is really loose. There's 00:12:33.139 --> 00:12:35.480 no formal membership. It's mostly spread through 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:39.159 media books, lectures, you know, YouTube channels 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:42.440 or TikToks today. So this is like people who 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:45.720 are really into astrology or. Follow a specific 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:47.960 self -help guru's books but never actually go 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:50.000 to a meeting. Exactly. You are an audience. You 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:52.539 might believe in crystal healing or ancient aliens, 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:54.980 but you're not moving to a compound. You're just 00:12:54.980 --> 00:12:57.580 buying the book or watching the videos. The commitment 00:12:57.580 --> 00:12:59.960 level is very low. Got it. You're a fan, not 00:12:59.960 --> 00:13:02.120 a member. What's the next level? Level two is 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:04.320 the client cult. Now the relationship becomes 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:07.139 transactional. You are a client paying for a 00:13:07.139 --> 00:13:09.559 specific service. So this would be like paying 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:11.980 for a psychic reading or a meditation course 00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:15.179 or some kind of... therapy that promises to unlock 00:13:15.179 --> 00:13:18.419 your hidden potential. Precisely. It's a provider 00:13:18.419 --> 00:13:21.559 -client relationship. They promise you a specific 00:13:21.559 --> 00:13:24.620 reward, or what they call a compensator, in exchange 00:13:24.620 --> 00:13:27.000 for your money. And this is where something like 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:29.779 early Scientology would fit in. That is the classic 00:13:29.779 --> 00:13:33.299 example. It began as a client cult. You paid 00:13:33.299 --> 00:13:35.990 for auditing services to improve your life. It 00:13:35.990 --> 00:13:38.110 was a transaction. You went in, got your auditing, 00:13:38.169 --> 00:13:40.669 and then you went home. But it obviously grew 00:13:40.669 --> 00:13:43.529 into something more than that. It did. It evolved 00:13:43.529 --> 00:13:47.190 into the third and most demanding type, the cult 00:13:47.190 --> 00:13:50.679 movement. This is the full package. It's a complete 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:52.879 organization. It doesn't just offer you a service. 00:13:52.899 --> 00:13:55.799 It offers a total religious structure, a complete 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:59.080 way of life. It demands high loyalty and wants 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.840 to encompass every part of your world. So that's 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:03.580 the progression. You go from buying the book, 00:14:03.620 --> 00:14:06.080 which is the audience, to booking an appointment, 00:14:06.179 --> 00:14:09.480 the client, to moving into the dorms, the movement. 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:12.460 In a way, yes. And Bainbridge and Stark noted 00:14:12.460 --> 00:14:15.159 one type can evolve into another. But here's 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:17.059 a fascinating little footnote to all this. What's 00:14:17.059 --> 00:14:19.779 that? William Sims Bainbridge, one of the guys 00:14:19.779 --> 00:14:22.360 who created this really useful system, later 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:24.960 said he regretted ever using the word cult at 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.620 all. Seriously. Even the guy who wrote the rule 00:14:27.620 --> 00:14:30.200 book on how to classify them gave up on the word. 00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:32.879 Yeah. He realized that no matter how carefully 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:35.980 you define it in an academic paper, the toxic 00:14:35.980 --> 00:14:39.840 popular stigma of the label just overpowers everything. 00:14:39.860 --> 00:14:43.299 You can't wash the stink off the word. But. And 00:14:43.299 --> 00:14:45.340 I have to push back on this again. Isn't there 00:14:45.340 --> 00:14:47.919 a reason for the stink? I mean, we're being very 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.480 academic and polite, calling them NRMs and movements. 00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:53.100 But some of these groups do hurt people. They 00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:55.600 destroy lives. We can't just pretend every group 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:57.539 is a misunderstood gardening club. No, you're 00:14:57.539 --> 00:14:59.679 absolutely right. We cannot and should not ignore 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:02.240 that. Yeah. While sociologists fight for neutral 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:04.399 terms, it's undeniable that some groups engage 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.879 in serious abuse. And this leads us to the concept 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:09.120 of the destructive cult. OK, now we're getting 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:10.779 into the territory that most people think of 00:15:10.779 --> 00:15:13.759 when they hear the word. separates a destructive 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:17.679 cult from just a weird one. The focus here shifts 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:20.559 from what they believe to how they behave. Michael 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:23.639 Langone, who is a major figure in the anti -cult 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:26.139 movement, defines a destructive cult as a group 00:15:26.139 --> 00:15:28.379 that is highly manipulative and exploits its 00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:30.840 members, causing psychological, financial, and 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:32.860 sometimes physical harm. So it doesn't matter 00:15:32.860 --> 00:15:35.120 if they believe the moon is made of cheese. That's 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.820 fine. But if the group's leader, the Cheese King, 00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:40.320 forces you to cut off your family and sign over 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.200 your life savings? That's destructive. Exactly. 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:45.620 The belief is irrelevant. The harm is the issue. 00:15:45.860 --> 00:15:49.679 Eli Shapiro lists characteristics like loss of 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.600 personal identity, estrangement from family and 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.240 pronounced mental control. It's effectively a 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:58.139 sociopathic system. But even here with a term 00:15:58.139 --> 00:16:01.039 like destructive, the label is legally tricky, 00:16:01.259 --> 00:16:03.259 isn't it? I remember reading in the notes about 00:16:03.259 --> 00:16:06.019 a case in Germany. Yes, with the Osho movement. 00:16:06.139 --> 00:16:09.159 That's a fascinating legal precedent. In 2002, 00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:11.419 the German government was actually found by their 00:16:11.419 --> 00:16:13.820 highest court to have defamed the Osho movement. 00:16:14.259 --> 00:16:16.399 The government had put out these official warnings 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:18.919 calling them a destructive cult. And the court 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:21.259 ruled that there was no factual basis to support 00:16:21.259 --> 00:16:24.049 that specific claim of being destructive. That's 00:16:24.049 --> 00:16:26.649 wild. So the government said, watch out for these 00:16:26.649 --> 00:16:28.929 dangerous guys. And the court said, actually, 00:16:29.029 --> 00:16:31.090 you can't say that unless you can prove it. It 00:16:31.090 --> 00:16:33.549 shows that destructive can't just be a vibe you 00:16:33.549 --> 00:16:36.389 get. It has to be a provable fact. And that burden 00:16:36.389 --> 00:16:39.269 of proof is high. But when we talk about destructive 00:16:39.269 --> 00:16:42.129 outcomes, nothing captures the public imagination 00:16:42.129 --> 00:16:45.509 or illustrates the psychology of belief quite 00:16:45.509 --> 00:16:48.200 like a doomsday cult. The end of the world. The 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:50.879 ultimate high stakes belief. It is. And the study 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:52.980 of doomsday cults gave us one of the most famous 00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:54.940 theories in the history of social psychology. 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.700 I'm talking about Leon Festinger's work on a 00:16:57.700 --> 00:17:01.419 group he called the Seekers in the 1950s. I love 00:17:01.419 --> 00:17:04.000 this story. It reads like a movie. Set the scene 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:06.980 for us. Okay, so it's 1954. You've got this small 00:17:06.980 --> 00:17:09.339 group in the Midwest led by a woman named Dorothy 00:17:09.339 --> 00:17:12.019 Martin, though Festinger called her Marion Keech 00:17:12.019 --> 00:17:14.500 in his book, When Prophecy Fails, to protect 00:17:14.500 --> 00:17:17.200 her identity. Right. She claimed she was receiving 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:20.180 messages through automatic writing from these 00:17:20.180 --> 00:17:23.380 superior beings on a planet called Clarion. Planet 00:17:23.380 --> 00:17:26.359 Clarion. Got it. And what did the good people 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:28.859 of Clarion have to say? They said that a massive 00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:31.839 world -ending flood was coming before dawn on 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:36.259 December 21st, 1954. But... The true believers, 00:17:36.460 --> 00:17:38.660 the members of her little group, would be rescued 00:17:38.660 --> 00:17:41.319 by a flying saucer that would land in her backyard 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:44.480 at midnight. So Festinger and his colleagues 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:46.839 did something pretty bold. They didn't just observe 00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:50.059 from afar. No, they infiltrated the group. Wow. 00:17:50.299 --> 00:17:52.420 They pretended to be believers. They wanted to 00:17:52.420 --> 00:17:54.559 be in the room to see what would happen at 12 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:57.799 .01 a .m. when the spaceship didn't show up. 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:01.349 So take us there. It's December 20th. It's freezing 00:18:01.349 --> 00:18:03.990 cold. They're all gathered in this house. The 00:18:03.990 --> 00:18:06.170 tension is just unbearable. These people have 00:18:06.170 --> 00:18:08.329 quit their jobs. They've given away their possessions. 00:18:08.529 --> 00:18:10.549 They're saving. Some of them left their families. 00:18:10.630 --> 00:18:11.890 They're all sitting there in the living room 00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:15.390 waiting. And midnight comes. Nothing. Silence. 00:18:15.509 --> 00:18:18.150 No spaceship. No knock on the door. Just the 00:18:18.150 --> 00:18:22.279 ticking of the clock. 12 .05. 12 .8. People are 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:24.420 starting to look at each other. One member points 00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:26.059 out another clock in the room is a few minutes 00:18:26.059 --> 00:18:27.940 faster, so maybe that's the right one. Grasping 00:18:27.940 --> 00:18:33.640 at straws. Totally. 1 .00 a .m. 2 .0 a .m. The 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:36.440 despair starts to set in. People are crying. 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.640 They are facing the total and complete collapse 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:41.859 of their entire reality. This is the moment where 00:18:41.859 --> 00:18:43.839 logic would say they should just pack up and 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:46.319 go home. Well, we were wrong. Dorby's crazy. 00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:48.920 Let's try to get our jobs back. Logically, yes. 00:18:49.140 --> 00:18:52.119 But that's not how psychology works. At 4 .45 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:54.500 in the morning, Dorothy Martin gets a new message 00:18:54.500 --> 00:18:56.559 from Clarion. Of course she does. And the message 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:58.599 says that the little group, by sitting there 00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:00.660 all night long with so much faith, had spread 00:19:00.660 --> 00:19:03.059 so much light that God had decided to call off 00:19:03.059 --> 00:19:05.460 the flood and save the world. Wow. What a pivot. 00:19:05.950 --> 00:19:08.650 We didn't fail. We succeeded so hard that we 00:19:08.650 --> 00:19:11.410 changed the plan. Exactly. And here is the truly 00:19:11.410 --> 00:19:14.009 incredible part. Instead of realizing they had 00:19:14.009 --> 00:19:16.170 been duped, the members became more committed. 00:19:16.430 --> 00:19:19.369 More. Before this night, they were secretive. 00:19:19.369 --> 00:19:22.130 They avoided the press. After this new message, 00:19:22.369 --> 00:19:24.009 they started calling the newspapers. They went 00:19:24.009 --> 00:19:27.450 out to proselytize. They doubled down. Why? Why 00:19:27.450 --> 00:19:29.309 on earth would you double down when you've just 00:19:29.309 --> 00:19:32.329 been proven so spectacularly wrong? This is where 00:19:32.329 --> 00:19:34.650 Festinger coined his famous theory of cognitive 00:19:34.650 --> 00:19:37.390 dissonance. Right. The psychological tension 00:19:37.390 --> 00:19:40.210 between these two thoughts, one, I gave up my 00:19:40.210 --> 00:19:42.849 job, my money, and my reputation for this belief, 00:19:43.049 --> 00:19:47.039 and two, the belief was just proven false, is 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.019 too painful for the mind to hold at the same 00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:50.859 time. So you have to change one of them. You 00:19:50.859 --> 00:19:52.880 have to change one of them. And it's much easier 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.279 to change your interpretation of reality than 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:57.940 it is to admit you're a fool who just destroyed 00:19:57.940 --> 00:20:00.559 your own life for nothing. So you invent a new 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:03.839 belief. We weren't wrong. We were so right that 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.500 we saved the entire world. That is fascinating. 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:08.660 It's kind of ego preservation. The more you've 00:20:08.660 --> 00:20:11.339 invested, the higher the cost, the harder it 00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:13.680 is to admit you were wrong. Precisely. The cost 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:15.740 of exit is just too high. And this psychological 00:20:15.740 --> 00:20:18.779 pattern repeats over and over. But this naturally 00:20:18.779 --> 00:20:21.619 leads us to the reaction from society. When all 00:20:21.619 --> 00:20:23.559 these groups started exploding in the 60s and 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.880 70s, the Moonies, the Hare Krishnas people, didn't 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:29.200 just sit back and take academic notes like Festinger. 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:31.819 No, they freaked out. It was a full -blown moral 00:20:31.819 --> 00:20:35.089 panic. You have to remember the context. The 00:20:35.089 --> 00:20:37.230 60s counterculture had already shaken up the 00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:39.849 American family, and now parents were seeing 00:20:39.849 --> 00:20:42.289 their kids drop out of college, shave their heads, 00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:45.970 wear robes, and chants in airports. This gave 00:20:45.970 --> 00:20:50.130 rise to the anti -cult movement, or ACM. But 00:20:50.130 --> 00:20:52.710 the ACM wasn't just one monolithic thing, was 00:20:52.710 --> 00:20:56.109 it? The notes break it down into two very different 00:20:56.109 --> 00:20:58.490 camps. Right. First, you had the Christian countercult 00:20:58.490 --> 00:21:01.049 movement. their objection was purely theological 00:21:01.049 --> 00:21:04.410 they saw these groups as cults because of heresy 00:21:04.410 --> 00:21:06.930 so their problem was you have the wrong beliefs 00:21:06.930 --> 00:21:09.950 about god basically yeah if a group denied the 00:21:09.950 --> 00:21:12.470 trinity or the inerrancy of the bible it was 00:21:12.470 --> 00:21:15.130 a cult and they cast a very wide net it wasn't 00:21:15.130 --> 00:21:17.549 just the moonies it included groups like mormons 00:21:17.549 --> 00:21:19.650 and jehovah's witnesses and even major world 00:21:19.650 --> 00:21:21.930 religions like hinduism for them it wasn't about 00:21:21.930 --> 00:21:24.710 danger it was about doctrinal truth okay so that's 00:21:24.710 --> 00:21:26.710 a religious debate but what about the parents 00:21:26.710 --> 00:21:28.660 who didn't care about theology they just wanted 00:21:28.660 --> 00:21:30.539 their kid back from the commune. That was the 00:21:30.539 --> 00:21:32.700 secular anti -cult movement. They didn't care 00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:34.420 if you worshipped a toaster. They cared about 00:21:34.420 --> 00:21:37.619 autonomy. And their central argument was that 00:21:37.619 --> 00:21:40.720 these groups used brainwashing or mind control. 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:43.420 Brainwashing. There's another one of those huge 00:21:43.420 --> 00:21:46.980 loaded movie villain terms. The Manchurian candidate. 00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:50.759 It was the core belief of the secular ACM. These 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:52.779 families just could not believe their children 00:21:52.779 --> 00:21:55.200 would have changed so drastically of their own 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:57.700 free will. My son was a pre -med student. Now 00:21:57.700 --> 00:22:00.359 he's selling incense. He would never choose that. 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.400 Right. So the conclusion they came to was he 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:06.240 must have been programmed against his will. It 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.619 was a comforting explanation in a way because 00:22:08.619 --> 00:22:11.259 it meant their child wasn't responsible. He didn't 00:22:11.259 --> 00:22:13.839 choose to leave me. His mind was stolen. But... 00:22:14.109 --> 00:22:17.029 Does brainwashing actually exist? I mean, scientifically, 00:22:17.230 --> 00:22:19.490 is it a real thing or is it just a metaphor we 00:22:19.490 --> 00:22:22.230 use? Well, that's the huge controversy. Sociologists, 00:22:22.250 --> 00:22:24.869 for the most part, reject the classic brainwashing 00:22:24.869 --> 00:22:27.490 theory. They do. But wait, I mean, I've seen 00:22:27.490 --> 00:22:28.930 the documentaries. I've seen the people with 00:22:28.930 --> 00:22:30.730 the blank stares. You're telling me there's no 00:22:30.730 --> 00:22:33.190 manipulation? Oh, there's definitely influence. 00:22:33.329 --> 00:22:35.910 There's manipulation, deception, intense social 00:22:35.910 --> 00:22:39.680 pressure. But brainwashing? The idea that you 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.119 can just erase someone's personality and install 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:45.380 a new one like software is largely considered 00:22:45.380 --> 00:22:48.259 pseudoscience by the academic and legal communities. 00:22:48.579 --> 00:22:50.640 So how do they explain the conversions then? 00:22:50.779 --> 00:22:53.119 There's a famous study by John Laughland on the 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:55.500 unification church, the Moonies, back in the 00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:57.599 60s. Right. They were the poster children for 00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:59.920 this whole brainwashing idea. They were. But 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:02.839 Laughland found that contrary to the myth of 00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:06.099 them being these master manipulators, the Moonies 00:23:06.099 --> 00:23:08.160 were actually terrible at recruiting strangers. 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:10.559 off the street. Their brainwashing techniques 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:13.099 almost never work. So they weren't hypnotic wizards? 00:23:13.339 --> 00:23:15.880 No. Laughlin found that almost all successful 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:18.400 recruits joined because of pre -existing relationships. 00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:21.079 They had a friend or family member already in 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:23.140 the group. It wasn't some mystical mind control. 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:25.960 It was social bonding. You feel lonely. These 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:28.460 people are nice to you. You like them. And eventually 00:23:28.460 --> 00:23:30.640 you adopt their beliefs to remain part of the 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:34.759 group. That sounds disturbingly normal. It's 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:37.140 like how people join a CrossFit gym. Your buddy 00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:39.079 goes, and three months later, you're talking 00:23:39.079 --> 00:23:42.099 about WODs and eating paleo, and you've adopted 00:23:42.099 --> 00:23:45.039 a whole new identity. It is the exact same social 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:47.440 mechanism. But because the consequences in a 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.119 high -control group are so much more severe, 00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:52.319 the secular ACM took these extreme measures. 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:55.059 They started practicing deprogramming. Which 00:23:55.059 --> 00:23:57.859 was, let's be honest, kidnapping. Legally, yes. 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:00.519 Parents would hire these guys to physically snatch 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:02.440 their adult children off the street, throw them 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:04.900 in a van, take them to a motel room, and basically 00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:07.599 badger them for days or weeks until they renounced 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:10.039 their faith. That's just unbelievable. Committing 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:12.220 a felony to save someone from a group you think 00:24:12.220 --> 00:24:15.740 is, like, immoral. It was a chaotic, legally 00:24:15.740 --> 00:24:18.259 murky time. But before we get into the court 00:24:18.259 --> 00:24:20.180 battles this all created, I want to widen the 00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:22.279 lens a bit. We've been talking almost exclusively 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:25.500 about religion. But can a cult exist without 00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:28.700 a god? This is where I think this deep dive gets 00:24:28.700 --> 00:24:31.160 really relevant for a lot of our listeners. The 00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:34.119 idea of joining a religious compound feels very 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:37.900 distant. But joining a movement or a company? 00:24:38.410 --> 00:24:41.490 That feels much closer to home. Absolutely. Because 00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:44.069 the structures of high control, the charismatic 00:24:44.069 --> 00:24:47.109 leader, the us versus them worldview, the demand 00:24:47.109 --> 00:24:49.549 for purity, they aren't unique to religion. We 00:24:49.549 --> 00:24:51.990 see them very clearly in political cults. And 00:24:51.990 --> 00:24:53.789 the notes mention this happens on both the far 00:24:53.789 --> 00:24:56.230 left and the far right. It does. A political 00:24:56.230 --> 00:24:58.289 cult's main interest is ideology and political 00:24:58.289 --> 00:25:01.049 action, but the internal dynamic is identical. 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:04.119 You have a leader who cannot be questioned. If 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:05.700 you disagree with the party line, you're not 00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:07.799 just wrong, you're a traitor. You're a counter 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:10.319 -revolutionary or a rhino or whatever the insult 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:12.859 of the day is. You're encouraged to cut ties 00:25:12.859 --> 00:25:15.319 with friends and family who aren't pure. It's 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:17.500 the same playbook, just different costumes. Instead 00:25:17.500 --> 00:25:20.420 of robes, it might be Maggie hats or black block 00:25:20.420 --> 00:25:23.920 gear. The demand is total unquestioning loyalty. 00:25:24.619 --> 00:25:27.019 Dennis Tourish and Tim Woolforth wrote a great 00:25:27.019 --> 00:25:29.039 book about this called On the Edge, and they 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:31.440 argue that it's the rigidity that makes it cult 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.480 -like, not the specific political goal. But here's 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:35.960 the one that really made me sit up straight. 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:40.099 Corporate cultism. The idea that a company can 00:25:40.099 --> 00:25:43.490 be a cult and not a scam company. We're talking 00:25:43.490 --> 00:25:46.549 successful blue chip companies. This comes from 00:25:46.549 --> 00:25:49.369 some really surprising research. Jim Collins 00:25:49.369 --> 00:25:52.069 and Jerry Porras wrote a hugely famous business 00:25:52.069 --> 00:25:54.549 book called Built to Last. Oh, yeah, I know that 00:25:54.549 --> 00:25:56.329 book. It's like a Bible in the business world. 00:25:56.670 --> 00:25:59.329 It's all about how to build a great, enduring 00:25:59.329 --> 00:26:02.390 company. It is. But if you read it closely, they 00:26:02.390 --> 00:26:04.369 studied these visionary companies, you know, 00:26:04.369 --> 00:26:06.750 Disney, IBM, Procter & Gamble, and they found 00:26:06.750 --> 00:26:08.490 that many of these hyper -successful companies 00:26:08.490 --> 00:26:11.150 have what Collins and Porras explicitly call 00:26:11.150 --> 00:26:13.349 cult -like cultures. Wait, wait. So the book 00:26:13.349 --> 00:26:15.390 is saying being cult -like is a good thing for 00:26:15.390 --> 00:26:17.950 business. In terms of longevity and profit, they 00:26:17.950 --> 00:26:20.190 argue yes. They identified these key traits. 00:26:20.390 --> 00:26:23.849 A fervently held ideology, intense indoctrination 00:26:23.849 --> 00:26:26.740 for new hires, a sense of elite. and what they 00:26:26.740 --> 00:26:29.400 call tightness of fit. Tightness of fit. That 00:26:29.400 --> 00:26:31.900 sounds like some terrifying HR jargon. Break 00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:35.480 that down for me. It means you either belong 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:39.880 or you don't. There's no middle ground. If you 00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:42.859 fit the culture, you're embraced, you're promoted, 00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:46.339 you feel a sense of purpose. If you don't fit, 00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:50.079 you are ejected like a virus. Okay. Think about 00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:52.000 the onboarding process at some of these places. 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:54.240 It's not just filling out forms. It's Disney 00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:56.380 University. It's learning the company songs, 00:26:56.539 --> 00:26:59.440 which IBM literally used to have. It's learning 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.119 a whole special vocabulary that only insiders 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:04.200 understand. Like at Disney, you're not an employee. 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:07.259 You're a cast member. You're not at work. You're... 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:10.880 Exactly. Or at Amazon, where there's an obsession 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:13.019 with the leadership principles. Or some of these 00:27:13.019 --> 00:27:14.940 tech startups where you're expected to sleep 00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:16.759 under your desk and talk constantly about changing 00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:18.579 the world when you're really just, you know, 00:27:18.619 --> 00:27:21.099 optimizing ad clicks. I'm thinking of WeWork 00:27:21.099 --> 00:27:23.450 here. The whole We generation. The mandatory 00:27:23.450 --> 00:27:26.269 summer camps. The charismatic leader Adam Neumann 00:27:26.269 --> 00:27:28.490 walking around barefoot telling everyone they 00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:31.269 were elevating the world's consciousness by subletting 00:27:31.269 --> 00:27:34.190 office space. A perfect modern example of a corporate 00:27:34.190 --> 00:27:37.250 cult. It's cultism applied directly to capitalism. 00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:41.119 The company engineers devotion to boost productivity. 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:43.980 Instead of promising you salvation in the next 00:27:43.980 --> 00:27:46.500 life, they promise you stock options and impact 00:27:46.500 --> 00:27:48.900 in this one. And the control mechanism is social 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:51.940 pressure. Totally. If you leave at 5 p .m., you're 00:27:51.940 --> 00:27:54.279 not just an employee with good work -life balance. 00:27:54.380 --> 00:27:57.259 You are not committed to the mission. You're 00:27:57.259 --> 00:27:59.720 letting the family down. That is so insidious. 00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:02.519 Because in a religion, you kind of expect a demand 00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:05.059 for your soul. But in a job, it's supposed to 00:28:05.059 --> 00:28:08.339 be a transaction. Time for money. These companies 00:28:08.339 --> 00:28:11.180 want your soul and your time. And Built to Last 00:28:11.180 --> 00:28:13.920 argues this cult -like culture creates this intense 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:16.720 sense of elitism. We are the best. Everyone else 00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:19.460 is mediocre. That binds people together and makes 00:28:19.460 --> 00:28:21.779 them work harder. But it also makes them blind 00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:23.980 to any outside criticism. Which explains why 00:28:23.980 --> 00:28:26.180 so many of these companies have massive scandals 00:28:26.180 --> 00:28:28.720 or eventually implode. Everyone inside is drinking 00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:31.440 the Kool -Aid or the free cold brew on tap. And 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.599 nobody's willing to question the leader. It's 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:36.099 the dark side of a strong community. The very 00:28:36.099 --> 00:28:38.660 things that make a group cohesive and effective 00:28:38.660 --> 00:28:41.039 are the same things that can make it controlling 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:43.660 and dangerous. So if these dynamics are everywhere 00:28:43.660 --> 00:28:46.420 in our religions, our politics, our offices, 00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.940 how do governments even begin to handle them? 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:52.359 You can't just ban being really into your job, 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.740 but you also have to protect people. And this 00:28:54.740 --> 00:28:57.839 is where we see a complete global patchwork of 00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:01.380 policies. Every country handles the cult problem 00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:04.000 differently based on its own unique history and 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:05.779 values. Let's start with the United States. We've 00:29:05.779 --> 00:29:07.880 got the First Amendment. Yeah. Freedom of belief 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:10.380 is a pretty big deal here. The U .S. approach 00:29:10.380 --> 00:29:12.839 is almost entirely defined by the First Amendment. 00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:15.880 Freedom of belief is absolute. You can believe 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:18.279 the flying spaghetti monster is God. You can 00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:20.920 believe the world ends tomorrow. The government 00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:23.039 cannot touch you for your thoughts. But they 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:25.359 can touch you if you break the law, right? If 00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:27.750 your belief system involves tax fraud. They can 00:29:27.750 --> 00:29:30.029 still come after you for tax fraud. Correct. 00:29:30.250 --> 00:29:33.309 Your belief is protected. Your conduct is regulated. 00:29:33.549 --> 00:29:36.450 If you commit fraud or abuse, you get prosecuted 00:29:36.450 --> 00:29:39.509 for that crime, not for being in a cult. But 00:29:39.509 --> 00:29:41.369 there was a huge turning point regarding that 00:29:41.369 --> 00:29:44.410 brainwashing defense we talked about. In 1990, 00:29:44.609 --> 00:29:47.470 there was a landmark case called United States 00:29:47.470 --> 00:29:50.430 v. Fishman. What happened there? This was a pivotal 00:29:50.430 --> 00:29:52.630 moment. Stephen Fishman was a member of the Church 00:29:52.630 --> 00:29:55.630 of Scientology accused of mail fraud. And his 00:29:55.630 --> 00:29:57.470 defense was going to be that he wasn't responsible 00:29:57.470 --> 00:29:59.750 because he had been brainwashed by the church. 00:30:00.009 --> 00:30:02.400 The devil made me do it. But the devil in this 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:05.200 case is L. Ron Hubbard. Pretty much. His lawyers 00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:07.359 wanted to bring in expert witnesses to testify 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:09.839 about the power of brainwashing, but the court 00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.839 had to decide. Is brainwashing a scientifically 00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:15.539 accepted theory? And what was the verdict? The 00:30:15.539 --> 00:30:18.420 court said no. They looked at the consensus from 00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:20.700 the American Psychological Association and the 00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:23.440 American Sociological Association, and they found 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:25.500 that the overwhelming majority of scholars did 00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:27.819 not accept brainwashing as a valid scientific 00:30:27.819 --> 00:30:30.940 concept, so they ruled the testimony inadmissible. 00:30:31.390 --> 00:30:34.549 That is a massive decision. It basically killed 00:30:34.549 --> 00:30:37.250 the Iowa's brainwashed defense in America. It 00:30:37.250 --> 00:30:39.890 did. It essentially established that in the eyes 00:30:39.890 --> 00:30:42.910 of U .S. law, you can't use brainwashing as a 00:30:42.910 --> 00:30:45.849 legal defense and the state can't use it to prosecute 00:30:45.849 --> 00:30:48.990 a group. The law operates on the assumption that 00:30:48.990 --> 00:30:51.349 you have free will, even if you're in a high 00:30:51.349 --> 00:30:53.609 pressure environment. So in the U .S., you have 00:30:53.609 --> 00:30:56.069 the freedom to join and you have the responsibility 00:30:56.069 --> 00:30:58.920 for what you do once you're in. Yes. But if we 00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:01.240 hop over to Europe, the story is completely different. 00:31:01.339 --> 00:31:04.059 Europe is very divided on this. So who are the 00:31:04.059 --> 00:31:07.400 hardliners? France and Belgium. They took a very 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:10.480 aggressive state -led approach. France created 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:13.200 a government agency, Mivaludes, specifically 00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:16.019 to monitor and combat what they call sectarian 00:31:16.019 --> 00:31:18.880 aberrations. They've even published lists of 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:21.079 groups they consider dangerous. Why are they 00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:23.240 so much stricter than the U .S.? A lot of it 00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:25.539 comes down to historical trauma, specifically 00:31:25.539 --> 00:31:27.980 the Order of the Solar Temple tragedies in the 00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:31.339 mid-'90s. That was a group that had mass suicides 00:31:31.339 --> 00:31:33.829 and murders in Switzerland and Canada. But it 00:31:33.829 --> 00:31:36.529 had very strong French connections. It deeply 00:31:36.529 --> 00:31:39.509 shocked the Francophone world. And the state 00:31:39.509 --> 00:31:41.950 decided it had a duty to protect its citizens 00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:45.549 from mental manipulation. So in France, the government 00:31:45.549 --> 00:31:47.750 basically says, we will decide what's a safe 00:31:47.750 --> 00:31:49.549 religion and what's a dangerous sect. It's a 00:31:49.549 --> 00:31:52.720 much more paternalistic approach. Exactly. They 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:55.880 prioritize protection from harm over freedom 00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:58.980 of belief in that particular balance. Whereas 00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:01.559 countries like Sweden and Italy have taken a 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:05.180 much more cautious U .S. style stance. Now let's 00:32:05.180 --> 00:32:07.559 pivot to China because there the language is 00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:09.220 totally different and the stakes are incredibly 00:32:09.220 --> 00:32:11.440 high. We're not talking about lawsuits. We're 00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:13.599 talking about prison camps. Right. In China, 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:16.380 the key term is geijiao. This often gets translated 00:32:16.380 --> 00:32:18.839 in Western media as evil cult, but that's a bit 00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.210 of a mistranslation. A more accurate rendering 00:32:21.210 --> 00:32:24.069 is heterodox teachings. Heterodox. So different 00:32:24.069 --> 00:32:27.109 from the standard, the orthodox. Exactly. And 00:32:27.109 --> 00:32:29.150 in the context of imperial China and now the 00:32:29.150 --> 00:32:31.630 Communist Party, heterodox doesn't necessarily 00:32:31.630 --> 00:32:34.869 mean the religion is spiritually false. It means 00:32:34.869 --> 00:32:37.910 it is unauthorized by the state. So it's a political 00:32:37.910 --> 00:32:41.049 label, not a religious one. It's about who has 00:32:41.049 --> 00:32:43.230 the official stamp of approval. 100 percent. 00:32:44.250 --> 00:32:46.710 If a religious group isn't approved by the state 00:32:46.710 --> 00:32:48.930 or if it's seen as a potential challenge to the 00:32:48.930 --> 00:32:51.910 party's authority, it can be labeled Ziajiao. 00:32:52.069 --> 00:32:55.410 The most famous modern example of this is Falun 00:32:55.410 --> 00:32:57.700 Gong. Right, the Kaigong practice. I remember 00:32:57.700 --> 00:33:00.900 seeing people practicing it in parks in the 90s. 00:33:00.900 --> 00:33:03.140 It just looked like Tai Chi. In the mid -90s, 00:33:03.140 --> 00:33:05.880 it was incredibly popular with millions of practitioners. 00:33:06.140 --> 00:33:08.460 It was even supported by some government bodies 00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:11.339 as a healthy traditional practice. But as it 00:33:11.339 --> 00:33:13.759 grew huge, we're talking maybe 70 million people, 00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:15.720 potentially more members than the Communist Party 00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:18.500 itself, the state started to see it as a threat. 00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:20.500 It's the numbers game. You have too many followers, 00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:24.400 so now you're a rival. Precisely. In 1999, the 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:27.269 crackdown began. The government retrospectively 00:33:27.269 --> 00:33:30.930 labeled Falun Gong a Zizhou to justify this massive 00:33:30.930 --> 00:33:33.950 suppression campaign. But do international scholars 00:33:33.950 --> 00:33:38.349 agree? From a sociological perspective, is Falun 00:33:38.349 --> 00:33:41.359 Gong a cult? Most Western scholars would say 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:43.960 no, it doesn't fit the typical sociological definition 00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:46.480 of a destructive cult. There's no communal living. 00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:48.940 It doesn't generally break up families in the 00:33:48.940 --> 00:33:51.759 way other high control groups do. But the Zijiao 00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.200 label gives the Chinese government the legal 00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:56.900 framework it needs to ban it, arrest practitioners 00:33:56.900 --> 00:33:59.619 and suppress the movement entirely. It's the 00:33:59.619 --> 00:34:01.920 ultimate example of the word being used as a 00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:04.779 tool of raw state power. It really just shows 00:34:04.779 --> 00:34:07.019 how much your geography determines your reality. 00:34:07.579 --> 00:34:09.699 Being a Jehovah's Witness in Ohio is just part 00:34:09.699 --> 00:34:12.079 of the landscape. But being a Jehovah's Witness 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:14.840 in Russia. In Russia, you're an extremist. Since 00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:17.219 2008, they've had a list of extremist organizations 00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:19.780 and they lump groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses 00:34:19.780 --> 00:34:22.579 right in there with pagan cults and actual terrorist 00:34:22.579 --> 00:34:25.320 organizations. They view them as a threat to 00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:27.840 the social fabric and traditional Russian values. 00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:31.780 Wow. OK, so we have covered. A lot of ground. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:34.900 We've gone from the Roman cultists being a good 00:34:34.900 --> 00:34:38.380 citizen to the church sect continuum. We've looked 00:34:38.380 --> 00:34:40.719 at the psychology of doomsday beliefs and cognitive 00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:43.219 dissonance. We've looked at corporate cults where 00:34:43.219 --> 00:34:47.320 your boss is your guru and the legal chaos as 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:48.960 governments all over the world try to figure 00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:51.679 this out. We have. And if there is one single 00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.739 thread connecting all of it. It's that cult is 00:34:54.739 --> 00:34:57.179 almost never just a descriptive word. It's an 00:34:57.179 --> 00:34:59.840 accusation. It's a boundary marker. It's a way 00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:02.679 of saying you are not one of us. Whether it's 00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:04.800 a church saying it to a heretic, a government 00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.300 saying it to a dissident group, or a society 00:35:07.300 --> 00:35:09.840 saying it to a strange new movement. And that's 00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:11.820 why understanding this is so important, I think. 00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:14.300 We live in an era of information bubbles, of 00:35:14.300 --> 00:35:17.039 intense political polarization. We see movements 00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:20.260 that demand total, unwavering devotion. We work 00:35:20.260 --> 00:35:22.320 in corporate cultures that want our souls. It 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:23.760 brings it back to that critical thinking skill. 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:26.559 If we can learn to spot the mechanisms of high 00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:30.460 control, the us versus them thinking, the intolerance 00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:32.989 of questions. charismatic authority figure, we 00:35:32.989 --> 00:35:35.230 can see them anywhere, not just in a compound 00:35:35.230 --> 00:35:38.070 out in the desert, but maybe in our Twitter feed 00:35:38.070 --> 00:35:40.969 or our political party or even our office Slack 00:35:40.969 --> 00:35:43.690 channel. Exactly. Don't just look for the label 00:35:43.690 --> 00:35:46.530 cult. Look at the behaviors. Is this group allowing 00:35:46.530 --> 00:35:49.550 me to think freely? Am I allowed to question 00:35:49.550 --> 00:35:52.550 things? Can I leave with my dignity and my relationships 00:35:52.550 --> 00:35:57.369 intact? Or is the cost of exit the complete destruction 00:35:57.369 --> 00:35:59.780 of my life? That's the real test, isn't it? Not 00:35:59.780 --> 00:36:02.280 do they wear funny clothes, but can I walk away? 00:36:02.420 --> 00:36:05.059 Freedom to leave is the ultimate proof of freedom. 00:36:05.179 --> 00:36:07.639 Before we wrap this up, I want to leave our listeners 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:09.900 with one final thought that was kind of lurking 00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:12.719 in the background of all this sociology. We talked 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.159 about how cults are, by definition, new religions. 00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:18.579 The original compositions. Well, sociologists 00:36:18.579 --> 00:36:22.119 often suggest that cults or NRMs are basically 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:24.559 the research and development department of religion. 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:27.409 That is a brilliant way to put it. Most startups 00:36:27.409 --> 00:36:30.909 fail, right? Most new products fail. And most 00:36:30.909 --> 00:36:33.289 cults fail. They fizzle out, the leader dies, 00:36:33.469 --> 00:36:36.489 something tragic happens. But the ones that succeed, 00:36:36.769 --> 00:36:39.010 the ones that manage to survive the death of 00:36:39.010 --> 00:36:41.090 the founder, that institutionalize, that stick 00:36:41.090 --> 00:36:43.750 around for a few generations. They become the 00:36:43.750 --> 00:36:46.989 churches of tomorrow. Every single major world 00:36:46.989 --> 00:36:50.670 religion, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, started 00:36:50.670 --> 00:36:54.199 as a cult. by that sociological definition. A 00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:56.760 small, high -tension group around a charismatic 00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:59.860 leader with a new, radical message that society 00:36:59.860 --> 00:37:02.179 rejected. So the only difference between a crazy 00:37:02.179 --> 00:37:05.039 cult and a respected world religion is what? 00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.239 Just time. Time. And numbers. I always ask this 00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:10.739 question. At what specific number of followers 00:37:10.739 --> 00:37:13.960 does crazy become tradition? If you have 10 followers, 00:37:14.099 --> 00:37:15.619 you're a cult leader. If you have a billion, 00:37:15.860 --> 00:37:17.840 you're a prophet. Something to think about the 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:20.079 next time you see a headline about a dangerous 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:22.539 new cult. Are you looking at a threat or are 00:37:22.539 --> 00:37:24.000 you just looking at a religion that hasn't gone 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:26.179 public yet? Thanks for taking this deep dive 00:37:26.179 --> 00:37:27.679 with us. My pleasure. Stay curious.