WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.720 Welcome back to the deep dive. Usually we take 00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:05.019 a topic, we find the answers, we package it all 00:00:05.019 --> 00:00:08.320 up, and then we move on. But today, today is 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.380 different. We are not just looking at a historical 00:00:10.380 --> 00:00:13.099 event. We are, I think, looking at an open wound. 00:00:13.740 --> 00:00:17.120 We're looking at 51 days in Texas that didn't 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:20.160 just end in tragedy. They fundamentally rewired 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:22.739 the American psyche. We are talking about the 00:00:22.739 --> 00:00:25.420 Waco siege. It's the scar that really hasn't 00:00:25.420 --> 00:00:28.019 healed. I mean, you can't tell the story of modern 00:00:28.019 --> 00:00:30.859 America, specifically the story of domestic terrorism, 00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:33.659 the militia movement and that deep entrenched. 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:36.659 distrust of the federal government without starting 00:00:36.659 --> 00:00:39.179 at the Mount Carmel Center in 1993. Right. It 00:00:39.179 --> 00:00:42.359 is in so many ways the origin point for the political 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:44.479 friction we still feel today. Exactly. And I 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:46.719 think for a lot of people, Waco is just a shorthand. 00:00:46.740 --> 00:00:48.920 It's this word that means government overreach 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:51.679 or, you know, crazy cult, depending on your Twitter 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:53.640 feed. Yeah, depending on who you talk to. You 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:56.219 picture the fire. You picture that building burning 00:00:56.219 --> 00:00:58.960 down on live television. But the mission today 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:01.820 is to move past those headlines. We've got a 00:01:01.820 --> 00:01:04.620 massive stack of sources here. Wikipedia articles, 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:07.079 the Danforth Report, survivor autobiographies, 00:01:07.099 --> 00:01:09.799 tactical analyses. We want to unpack the timeline, 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:13.180 the theology, which is huge and so often overlooked, 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:16.400 and the tactical errors that led to 76 people 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:19.500 losing their lives on April 19th. And I think 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:21.959 that word theology is the key. It's the key that 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:25.079 unlocks this whole tragedy. If you treat this 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:27.480 event just as a hostage situation or just as 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:30.459 a gunfight, you miss the entire engine that was 00:01:30.459 --> 00:01:32.659 driving the people inside that compound. You 00:01:32.659 --> 00:01:34.939 missed the why. You missed the why. To understand 00:01:34.939 --> 00:01:36.939 the fire, you have to understand the belief system 00:01:36.939 --> 00:01:39.379 that made that fire in their minds almost inevitable. 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:41.400 We have to look at this through the lens of what 00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:44.120 sociologists call asymmetric reality. Asymmetric 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:46.349 reality. I like that. Explain that a bit. It 00:01:46.349 --> 00:01:48.689 means you had two groups operating in completely 00:01:48.689 --> 00:01:52.109 different universes. The FBI was in one reality, 00:01:52.230 --> 00:01:55.829 a secular, tactical, hostage rescue scenario. 00:01:56.310 --> 00:01:58.769 But the Branch Davidians were operating in a 00:01:58.769 --> 00:02:01.469 completely different one, a biblical apocalyptic 00:02:01.469 --> 00:02:04.769 script where the government was literally playing 00:02:04.769 --> 00:02:07.329 the role of the beast from the book of Revelation. 00:02:07.590 --> 00:02:10.530 Wow. And when those two realities crashed into 00:02:10.530 --> 00:02:12.990 each other, disaster wasn't just possible. It 00:02:12.990 --> 00:02:16.060 was practically written in stone. So let's start 00:02:16.060 --> 00:02:18.400 at the very beginning, because before it was 00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:20.780 a siege, before it was a tragedy, it was just 00:02:20.780 --> 00:02:23.400 a group of people. And frankly, I was surprised 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:25.580 to learn that this didn't start with David Koresh. 00:02:25.659 --> 00:02:28.159 This wasn't a one -man show, at least not initially. 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:30.539 No, not at all. The group's lineage actually 00:02:30.539 --> 00:02:33.139 goes way back to 1955. They didn't just pop up 00:02:33.139 --> 00:02:35.319 out of nowhere in the 90s. They were a schism, 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:37.860 a breakaway group from another group called the 00:02:37.860 --> 00:02:40.460 Shepherd's Rod, who themselves were a breakaway 00:02:40.460 --> 00:02:42.689 from the Seventh -day Adventists. So you already 00:02:42.689 --> 00:02:44.490 had this history of splintering. So they were 00:02:44.490 --> 00:02:47.050 originally called the Davidians. The Davidians, 00:02:47.169 --> 00:02:50.610 yes. And the core belief, right from the jump, 00:02:50.750 --> 00:02:53.650 was about the imminent apocalypse. They believed 00:02:53.650 --> 00:02:55.849 they were living in the end times and that the 00:02:55.849 --> 00:02:57.629 second coming was right around the corner. They 00:02:57.629 --> 00:03:00.150 were preppers before prepping was a reality TV 00:03:00.150 --> 00:03:02.669 genre. Essentially, yes. They were spiritual 00:03:02.669 --> 00:03:04.870 preppers. They thought they had a front row seat 00:03:04.870 --> 00:03:07.569 to the end of the world. And they set up shop 00:03:07.569 --> 00:03:10.870 on a piece of property near Waco, Texas, which 00:03:10.870 --> 00:03:14.110 they named... Mount Carmel. And even that name, 00:03:14.169 --> 00:03:16.090 Mount Carmel, that's not an accident. That is 00:03:16.090 --> 00:03:18.849 a very specific signal. Oh, it's hugely significant. 00:03:18.949 --> 00:03:20.729 It's named after a biblical mountain in Israel. 00:03:20.909 --> 00:03:23.629 And it's not just any mountain. No. It's specifically 00:03:23.629 --> 00:03:26.449 the site of Elijah's confrontation with the prophets 00:03:26.449 --> 00:03:29.550 of Baal. In the Old Testament, Mount Carmel is 00:03:29.550 --> 00:03:31.830 where Elijah challenges the false prophets to 00:03:31.830 --> 00:03:35.169 a contest to see whose God can call down fire 00:03:35.169 --> 00:03:37.889 from heaven. So it's a place of showdowns. It 00:03:37.889 --> 00:03:41.409 is a place of spiritual warfare. So, Simply by 00:03:41.409 --> 00:03:44.310 naming their home Mount Carmel, the geography 00:03:44.310 --> 00:03:47.069 itself was steeped in this idea of a final confrontation. 00:03:47.870 --> 00:03:50.270 They were scripturally priming themselves for 00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:52.509 a fight from the very beginning. Okay, so you 00:03:52.509 --> 00:03:54.710 have this group, the Branch Davidians, living 00:03:54.710 --> 00:03:56.610 on this compound, they're waiting for the end, 00:03:56.710 --> 00:04:00.069 but then enters the man everyone knows, Vernon 00:04:00.069 --> 00:04:02.569 Howell. Right. Before he was David Koresh, he 00:04:02.569 --> 00:04:05.960 was Vernon Howell. A stuttering, dyslexic, high 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:09.419 school dropout, aspiring rock musician and an 00:04:09.419 --> 00:04:12.159 intensely charismatic Bible teacher. Quite the 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:15.150 resume. Yeah. And his rise to power wasn't exactly 00:04:15.150 --> 00:04:17.870 a Democratic vote. It was a succession struggle 00:04:17.870 --> 00:04:20.370 that, and I'm not exaggerating, reads like a 00:04:20.370 --> 00:04:22.529 thriller novel. Oh, this is where it gets really 00:04:22.529 --> 00:04:24.629 wild. I have to do a little story time here because 00:04:24.629 --> 00:04:26.110 when I read this in the notes, I had to double 00:04:26.110 --> 00:04:28.230 check it was real. So the leader at the time 00:04:28.230 --> 00:04:31.209 is Lois Roden. She passes away. And Vernon Howell 00:04:31.209 --> 00:04:33.610 is fighting for control against Lois's son, George 00:04:33.610 --> 00:04:37.850 Roden. And George Roden. He had a very specific, 00:04:37.970 --> 00:04:40.009 very macabre way he wanted to settle who was 00:04:40.009 --> 00:04:42.350 the true prophet. It is one of the most bizarre 00:04:42.350 --> 00:04:44.689 chapters in American religious history, and it 00:04:44.689 --> 00:04:47.129 almost never makes the documentaries. It's just 00:04:47.129 --> 00:04:50.149 too strange. George Rodin literally digs up a 00:04:50.149 --> 00:04:53.129 corpse, a woman named Anna Hughes from the Davidian 00:04:53.129 --> 00:04:56.790 Cemetery. He drags this body out and challenges 00:04:56.790 --> 00:04:59.589 Vernon Howell to a resurrection contest. It's 00:04:59.589 --> 00:05:03.009 a what? A resurrection contest. He says, essentially, 00:05:03.610 --> 00:05:05.970 whoever can bring this dead woman back to life 00:05:05.970 --> 00:05:09.370 is the true leader it sounds like fiction it 00:05:09.370 --> 00:05:11.189 sounds like something from a gothic horror story 00:05:11.189 --> 00:05:13.569 it does and you know you'd expect the cult leader 00:05:13.569 --> 00:05:16.250 type to maybe try a seance or start chanting 00:05:16.250 --> 00:05:18.910 but howell actually does the rational thing here 00:05:18.910 --> 00:05:21.069 he goes to the police which is fascinating he 00:05:21.069 --> 00:05:22.870 goes to the mclennan county sheriff's office 00:05:22.870 --> 00:05:26.470 and says hey this guy dug up a body that's abuse 00:05:26.470 --> 00:05:29.009 of a corpse which shows a certain level of cunning 00:05:29.009 --> 00:05:31.850 he knew he couldn't win a resurrection contest 00:05:31.850 --> 00:05:34.819 so he tried to win a legal one. But the prosecutors, 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:38.259 they refused to file charges without proof. They 00:05:38.259 --> 00:05:40.759 needed evidence. They needed evidence that the 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:43.279 corpse had been disturbed. They told him, bring 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:45.699 us a photo and we'll press charges. Which led 00:05:45.699 --> 00:05:48.660 to the gunfight. Which led to the gunfight. Howell 00:05:48.660 --> 00:05:50.779 gets seven of his followers. They were later 00:05:50.779 --> 00:05:53.339 dubbed the Rodenville Eight. They all dress in 00:05:53.339 --> 00:05:56.540 camouflage, carrying rifles, and they sneak onto 00:05:56.540 --> 00:05:58.819 the property to get a photo of the corpse as 00:05:58.819 --> 00:06:01.519 evidence. This is just unbelievable. George Roden 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:04.420 catches them. He's armed with an Uzi. A gunfight 00:06:04.420 --> 00:06:07.180 breaks out. It's this chaotic shootout in the 00:06:07.180 --> 00:06:09.439 middle of Texas over a dead body. Just a shootout 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:12.180 over a corpse. Exactly. Roden gets shot in the 00:06:12.180 --> 00:06:14.860 hand and chest. Howell and his followers go to 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:18.040 trial for attempted murder. The jury hangs. They 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:19.740 couldn't decide if it was self -defense or not. 00:06:20.019 --> 00:06:22.379 Eventually, Roden goes to jail for unrelated 00:06:22.379 --> 00:06:24.980 crimes, including contempt of court. And that's 00:06:24.980 --> 00:06:27.019 how Vernon Howell takes the throne. That's how 00:06:27.019 --> 00:06:29.430 he becomes leader. It wasn't a divine appointment. 00:06:29.589 --> 00:06:32.250 It was the result of a gunfight, a mistrial, 00:06:32.470 --> 00:06:35.350 and his rival self -destructing. It sets a violent 00:06:35.350 --> 00:06:37.250 tone for his leadership right from the start. 00:06:37.550 --> 00:06:40.129 But once he is in charge, things change rapidly. 00:06:40.670 --> 00:06:44.069 In 1989, he releases what he calls the New Light 00:06:44.069 --> 00:06:47.019 audio tape. And this is the pivot point. This 00:06:47.019 --> 00:06:49.139 is where the theology shifts from we are waiting 00:06:49.139 --> 00:06:52.139 for the end to I am the center of the end. New 00:06:52.139 --> 00:06:54.300 light is a term often used in these kinds of 00:06:54.300 --> 00:06:56.379 religious circles to describe a new revelation 00:06:56.379 --> 00:06:59.399 that supersedes the old laws. And Howell's new 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:02.420 light was effectively a sexual revolution for 00:07:02.420 --> 00:07:05.839 one man. New light sounds positive, but the content 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:08.319 was pretty dark. This is where the polygamy comes 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:11.300 in, right? Yes. The doctrine essentially stated 00:07:11.300 --> 00:07:14.250 that courage. he legally changed his name from 00:07:14.250 --> 00:07:17.730 Vernon Howell to David Koresh in 1990, was the 00:07:17.730 --> 00:07:20.709 sinful Messiah. What does that even mean, sinful 00:07:20.709 --> 00:07:24.149 Messiah? It's a complex idea he developed. He 00:07:24.149 --> 00:07:26.449 taught that he had to live a sinful life to understand 00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:29.009 sinners, and that he was a perfect man in a sinful 00:07:29.009 --> 00:07:31.889 body. But the mandate that came with it was that 00:07:31.889 --> 00:07:36.269 he, and he alone, was commanded by God to procreate 00:07:36.269 --> 00:07:38.589 with the women in the group to build a new House 00:07:38.589 --> 00:07:41.360 of David. And this wasn't just about unmarried 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:43.860 women. He dissolved the marriages of his followers. 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:46.800 He broke up couples. He separated married couples. 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:49.279 He told the men they had to be celibate to prepare 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:52.040 for the coming spiritual war, but he claimed 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:54.939 entitlement to their wives. He taught that all 00:07:54.939 --> 00:07:57.040 the women in the group belonged to him. That's 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:59.899 an incredible level of control. The men had to 00:07:59.899 --> 00:08:02.220 be celibate, but Koresh could have, and claimed 00:08:02.220 --> 00:08:05.490 he was entitled to, up to 140 wives and some 00:08:05.490 --> 00:08:07.490 of these wives were underage we're talking girls 00:08:07.490 --> 00:08:10.870 as young as 12 or 13. correct there is significant 00:08:10.870 --> 00:08:13.509 documentation and testimony from former members 00:08:13.509 --> 00:08:17.209 regarding his marriages to minors and that is 00:08:17.209 --> 00:08:20.360 crucial context Because while the later siege 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.939 was about guns, the initial heat, the initial 00:08:22.939 --> 00:08:25.779 scrutiny from the community and the press was 00:08:25.779 --> 00:08:28.480 very much driven by these allegations of statutory 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:30.740 rape and child abuse. The whispers were getting 00:08:30.740 --> 00:08:32.980 out. The community in Waco was hearing these 00:08:32.980 --> 00:08:34.779 stories from people who had left the group. Which 00:08:34.779 --> 00:08:36.779 brings us to the investigation. Because while 00:08:36.779 --> 00:08:39.620 the abuse was the moral outrage, that's not what 00:08:39.620 --> 00:08:41.539 brought the federal government to the door. Exactly. 00:08:41.700 --> 00:08:44.519 Statutory rape is a state crime. The federal 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:46.580 government, specifically the Bureau of Alcohol, 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.960 Tobacco, and Firearms, the ATF, needed a federal 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:51.940 angle to get involved. They don't investigate 00:08:51.940 --> 00:08:54.320 child abuse. They investigate weapons. And that 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:56.440 is where the spark comes in. That's the spark. 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:58.779 It started with a UPS driver, didn't it? It did. 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:02.779 May of 1992. A UPS driver is handling a package 00:09:02.779 --> 00:09:06.059 destined for the compound. It breaks open and 00:09:06.059 --> 00:09:08.559 out roll grenades. Just hand grenades rolling 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:11.200 around in a delivery truck. Now, to be fair to 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:12.899 the Davidians, and this is an important detail, 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:15.860 these were inert grenade holes. They were hollow. 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.960 There were no explosives inside them. Legally, 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:21.500 they were just heavy paperweights. Okay. But 00:09:21.500 --> 00:09:24.240 then came the other deliveries. Black gunpowder. 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:28.559 Powdered aluminum. Cardboard tubes. Okay, I'm 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:30.919 not a chemist, but even I know that if you have 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:33.519 grenade holes and you order gunpowder and aluminum 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:36.740 powder, you aren't making paperweights anymore. 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.639 Precisely. That is the entrance the ATF made. 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:41.940 The combination of those materials is used to 00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:44.179 create explosives. They believe the Davidians 00:09:44.179 --> 00:09:46.259 were building live grenades. And then there's 00:09:46.259 --> 00:09:48.419 the mag bag. The mag bag. That was their gun 00:09:48.419 --> 00:09:50.419 store. Right. Because we have to clarify, they 00:09:50.419 --> 00:09:53.320 were technically. Legal gun dealers. They were. 00:09:53.500 --> 00:09:56.299 Paul Fetta, a high -ranking member, was a licensed 00:09:56.299 --> 00:09:58.620 federal firearms dealer. They had a legitimate 00:09:58.620 --> 00:10:00.559 business called the Mag Bag. They traveled to 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:03.159 gun shows. They sold vests, ammunition, surplus 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:05.580 gear. It was a revenue stream for the group. 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.759 But the ATF agent investigating, David Aguilera, 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:11.179 noticed they were buying very specific items 00:10:11.179 --> 00:10:14.179 in bulk. AR -15 conversion kits. Exactly. AR 00:10:14.179 --> 00:10:16.559 -15s. Okay, let's unpack the technical side here 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:18.360 because this is where the legal argument gets 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:20.740 really tricky. It is not illegal to buy an AR 00:10:20.740 --> 00:10:23.919 -15. It is not illegal to buy parts for it. Correct. 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.740 In the United States, owning a semi -automatic 00:10:26.740 --> 00:10:29.940 AR -15 is legal. A semi -automatic fires one 00:10:29.940 --> 00:10:32.360 round for every pull of the trigger. Bang, bang, 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:36.259 bang. What is illegal, without very expensive 00:10:36.259 --> 00:10:39.000 and rare federal permits, is a fully automatic 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.340 machine gun. You pull the trigger, you hold it 00:10:41.340 --> 00:10:43.980 down, and it goes burp. Continuous fire. And 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:46.399 the ATF suspected they were making the burped 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:48.860 kind. Yes. They were buying parts like drop -in 00:10:48.860 --> 00:10:51.539 auto sears and other components that, if you 00:10:51.539 --> 00:10:53.720 file them down or modify them just right, can 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.240 convert a legal semi -automatic rifle into an 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:59.440 illegal, unregistered machine gun. The ATF operated 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:01.120 under the theory of constructive possession. 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:04.000 It's a legal doctrine. What does that mean? It 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:05.960 means that even if they didn't catch Koresh physically 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:08.320 firing a machine gun, possessing all the necessary 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:11.059 parts to assemble one with no other logical use 00:11:11.059 --> 00:11:13.879 for those parts, is itself a crime. The intent 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:16.320 becomes the crime. So you have the ETF building 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.659 this case. They suspect a massive stockpile of 00:11:19.659 --> 00:11:22.299 illegal machine guns and homemade grenades. They 00:11:22.299 --> 00:11:25.679 named the operation Showtime, which honestly 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:27.759 maybe tells you a little bit about the mindset 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:31.000 going in. It does suggest a desire for a high 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.100 -profile success. The ATF was actually under 00:11:34.100 --> 00:11:36.279 some pressure at the time, they'd had some bad 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:39.039 press, and they needed a win to justify their 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.340 budget to Congress. A big raid on a dangerous 00:11:42.340 --> 00:11:44.799 cult looked good on paper. But the clock was 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:46.940 ticking because of the press. We mentioned the 00:11:46.940 --> 00:11:49.659 abuse allegations earlier. The local paper, the 00:11:49.659 --> 00:11:52.259 Waco Tribune -Herald, was about to drop a bombshell. 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:54.500 The Sinful Messiah series. The reporters had 00:11:54.500 --> 00:11:56.159 been digging for months. They had interviews 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.539 with defectors, details about the polygamy, the 00:11:58.539 --> 00:12:00.679 child abuse, the weapons stockpile. It was a 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:03.200 massive expose. And ATF knew it was coming. They 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.419 did. They actually met with the editors of the 00:12:05.419 --> 00:12:08.039 newspaper and begged them not to publish it yet. 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.779 Why? What was their reasoning? They feared that 00:12:10.779 --> 00:12:12.980 once the article came out, Koresh would know 00:12:12.980 --> 00:12:21.659 the... But the newspaper had a duty to publish. 00:12:21.899 --> 00:12:26.529 And they did. On February 27th, 1993, the first 00:12:26.529 --> 00:12:28.870 part of The Sinful Messiah hits the newsstands 00:12:28.870 --> 00:12:31.450 all over Waco. And Koresh sees it. He knows he's 00:12:31.450 --> 00:12:34.590 been exposed. So the ATF panics. They feel like 00:12:34.590 --> 00:12:36.190 their hand has been forced. They have to move 00:12:36.190 --> 00:12:38.610 their timeline up. They decide to execute the 00:12:38.610 --> 00:12:41.429 raid the very next morning, Sunday, February 00:12:41.429 --> 00:12:45.080 28th. They accelerated the plan. Codename Showtime 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:47.779 was a go. The plan was a sudden daylight raid. 00:12:47.980 --> 00:12:50.700 Surprise was everything. They needed to hit hard 00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:52.860 and fast, catch the Davidians completely off 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:55.299 guard, separate the men from the weapons, and 00:12:55.299 --> 00:12:57.899 serve the search and arrest warrants. But, and 00:12:57.899 --> 00:13:00.179 this is one of those truth is stranger than fiction 00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:03.169 moments. The surprise was blown by a conversation 00:13:03.169 --> 00:13:05.409 with a mailman. It's a staggering coincidence. 00:13:05.610 --> 00:13:08.789 A true butterfly effect moment that sealed the 00:13:08.789 --> 00:13:11.309 fate of everyone involved. A local TV cameraman 00:13:11.309 --> 00:13:13.429 who had been tipped off that something big was 00:13:13.429 --> 00:13:15.669 happening at the compound was out in the area. 00:13:15.830 --> 00:13:17.710 He's trying to get a scoop. He's trying to get 00:13:17.710 --> 00:13:20.889 the shot. He gets lost on the rural roads. He 00:13:20.889 --> 00:13:23.809 sees a mail carrier doing his route and pulls 00:13:23.809 --> 00:13:26.690 over to ask for directions. He basically says, 00:13:26.830 --> 00:13:28.690 hey, can you tell me where the Rodenville place 00:13:28.690 --> 00:13:31.490 is? which is what locals called it. I hear the 00:13:31.490 --> 00:13:33.590 feds are raiding it today. And the mail carrier. 00:13:33.789 --> 00:13:35.870 The mail carrier happened to be David Koresh's 00:13:35.870 --> 00:13:38.330 brother -in -law. I mean, you cannot write that 00:13:38.330 --> 00:13:40.929 script. If you put that in a movie, the audience 00:13:40.929 --> 00:13:43.330 would groan and say it's too convenient. It's 00:13:43.330 --> 00:13:45.850 unbelievable. So the reporter tells the brother 00:13:45.850 --> 00:13:48.389 -in -law the raid is coming. The brother -in 00:13:48.389 --> 00:13:50.429 -law, Perry Jones, immediately goes straight 00:13:50.429 --> 00:13:52.549 to the compound and tells Koresh. So the surprise 00:13:52.549 --> 00:13:55.970 is gone. And that changes everything. The entire 00:13:55.970 --> 00:13:59.250 premise of the raid speed and surprise evaporated 00:13:59.250 --> 00:14:01.970 in that one moment. Now, the Davidians aren't 00:14:01.970 --> 00:14:03.750 sleeping. They are in their Sunday prayer service. 00:14:03.870 --> 00:14:05.669 They are arming up. And there was an undercover 00:14:05.669 --> 00:14:09.809 agent inside. Yes, Robert Rodriguez. He had been 00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:12.409 inside for weeks, posing as a Bible student. 00:14:12.809 --> 00:14:14.870 He was in the compound when the warning came. 00:14:15.830 --> 00:14:17.950 Koresh actually confronts him. He pulls him aside, 00:14:18.070 --> 00:14:20.129 looks him in the eye, and says, They're coming, 00:14:20.190 --> 00:14:22.570 Robert. The ATF and the National Guard are coming. 00:14:22.970 --> 00:14:24.850 That must have been terrifying for Rodriguez. 00:14:24.950 --> 00:14:27.789 His cover is blown. Absolutely. Rodriguez has 00:14:27.789 --> 00:14:30.629 to think fast. He makes an excuse, claims he 00:14:30.629 --> 00:14:33.330 needs to leave. He gets out, runs to a payphone, 00:14:33.470 --> 00:14:35.990 and frantically calls the ATF commanders. He 00:14:35.990 --> 00:14:38.730 tells them explicitly, they know the element 00:14:38.730 --> 00:14:40.669 of surprise is gone. They're getting their guns 00:14:40.669 --> 00:14:43.509 and their vests on. Call it off. And this is 00:14:43.509 --> 00:14:45.889 the pivotal moment of decision. The commander 00:14:45.889 --> 00:14:48.269 on the ground, Chuck Sarabin, knows the surprise 00:14:48.269 --> 00:14:50.629 is blown. Koresh knows they are coming. Common 00:14:50.629 --> 00:14:52.590 Sense says you call it off, set up a perimeter 00:14:52.590 --> 00:14:55.529 and negotiate. But the order is given. Go anyway. 00:14:55.850 --> 00:14:58.769 Showtime proceeds. For decades, tactical experts 00:14:58.769 --> 00:15:01.149 have criticized this decision as one of the worst 00:15:01.149 --> 00:15:03.629 in law enforcement history. It was likely a mix 00:15:03.629 --> 00:15:06.269 of adrenaline, sunken costs. They had almost 00:15:06.269 --> 00:15:08.590 80 agents and cattle trucks already moving down 00:15:08.590 --> 00:15:11.570 the road and institutional arrogance. They thought 00:15:11.570 --> 00:15:13.919 they could still pull it off. They thought, we 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:15.860 are the federal government. Even if they know 00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:18.220 we're coming, they'll see our overwhelming force 00:15:18.220 --> 00:15:21.600 and surrender. They fatally misjudged their opponent. 00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:25.919 So 9 .45 a .m., the cattle trucks arrive. And 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:28.279 that's a detail that always sticks with me. They 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:30.960 pulled up in these big white cattle trailers 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:33.720 covered in tarps to try and look like local ranchers. 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:36.299 It was a failed attempt at subterfuge. Agents 00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:39.000 in full tactical gear, helmets, black uniforms, 00:15:39.259 --> 00:15:42.710 they jump out. And then... The shooting starts. 00:15:43.009 --> 00:15:45.409 And this is one of the biggest points of contention 00:15:45.409 --> 00:15:48.710 that remains to this day. Who shot first? It's 00:15:48.710 --> 00:15:50.950 the Han Solo versus Greedo of federal law enforcement. 00:15:51.190 --> 00:15:54.830 In a very dark way, yes. The ATF's official story 00:15:54.830 --> 00:15:56.929 is that they were fired upon from the windows 00:15:56.929 --> 00:15:59.370 and the front door as they approached. They say 00:15:59.370 --> 00:16:01.149 the Davidians opened up on them immediately. 00:16:01.570 --> 00:16:04.610 The Davidians, specifically the survivors, have 00:16:04.610 --> 00:16:07.840 always maintained that the ATF fired first. They 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:09.820 claimed that agents shot the dogs that were in 00:16:09.820 --> 00:16:11.799 the kennel near the front of the building and 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:14.080 that gunfire triggered the Davidians to return 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.980 fire in defense of what they saw as an unprovoked 00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:19.580 attack. Whatever started it, it turned into a 00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:22.399 war zone instantly. You had agents trying to 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:24.559 get on the roof to breach the concrete room they 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:26.960 believed was the armory. You had National Guard 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.679 helicopters creating a distraction and taking 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:32.320 fire. Yes, the helicopters were supposed to be 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:34.539 a diversion, but the Davidians fired on them 00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:37.820 with high -powered .50 caliber rifles. The pilots 00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:39.759 reported bullets coming through the floor of 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:41.740 the choppers. They had to pull back immediately. 00:16:42.019 --> 00:16:45.159 On the ground, it was just chaos. The agents 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:47.379 were pinned down behind vehicles with no good 00:16:47.379 --> 00:16:50.100 cover. The casualties were significant and fast. 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:54.059 Four ATF agents were killed. 16 were wounded. 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:57.600 Inside, six Davidians died in the initial firefight. 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.340 David Koresh himself was shot in the hand and 00:17:00.340 --> 00:17:02.539 the stomach. And eventually the unthinkable happens 00:17:02.539 --> 00:17:04.980 for a federal raid. They run out of ammo. The 00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:07.859 ATF literally ran low on ammunition. They were 00:17:07.859 --> 00:17:09.759 in a sustained firefight they were not prepared 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:12.599 for. They had to negotiate a ceasefire with Koresh 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:15.859 over the phone just to withdraw safely. So it 00:17:15.859 --> 00:17:18.259 was a tactical defeat. It was a tactical defeat 00:17:18.259 --> 00:17:21.079 and a public humiliation. They had to retreat. 00:17:21.609 --> 00:17:24.210 leaving their dead initially until the ceasefire 00:17:24.210 --> 00:17:26.329 allowed them to retrieve the bodies. Instead 00:17:26.329 --> 00:17:28.690 of a quick service of a warrant, the United States 00:17:28.690 --> 00:17:31.269 government was now in a 51 -day standoff. This 00:17:31.269 --> 00:17:34.089 is where the ATF steps back and the FBI takes 00:17:34.089 --> 00:17:36.690 command, specifically the hostage rescue team 00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:40.930 HRT. And for the next 51 days, the world watched 00:17:40.930 --> 00:17:44.430 this slow motion train wreck unfold. And conflict 00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:46.890 is the right word to describe the FBI's approach 00:17:46.890 --> 00:17:49.690 internally, too. Because inside the FBI command 00:17:49.690 --> 00:17:51.869 post, you had a civil war happening. You had 00:17:51.869 --> 00:17:54.829 two very different philosophies clashing constantly. 00:17:55.109 --> 00:17:57.369 The negotiators versus the tactical team. Exactly. 00:17:57.549 --> 00:17:59.470 You had the FBI negotiators who wanted to talk 00:17:59.470 --> 00:18:01.910 Koresh out. Their approach was patience. They 00:18:01.910 --> 00:18:03.630 wanted to build trust, listen to his theology. 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:06.819 de -escalate. They treated it as a complex psychological 00:18:06.819 --> 00:18:08.980 puzzle. And then you had the tactical team, the 00:18:08.980 --> 00:18:11.220 HRT. These are the door kickers. Their philosophy 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:14.619 was pressure, constant escalating pressure. They 00:18:14.619 --> 00:18:17.599 wanted to make life inside the compound so miserable 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:19.960 that it would force them out. It was like good 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:22.240 cop, bad cop, but they weren't coordinating. 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:25.019 They were actively sabotaging each other. That's 00:18:25.019 --> 00:18:27.680 a perfect way to put it. The negotiators would 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:30.220 be on the phone having these long rambling discussions 00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:33.140 with Koresh, which the tactical guys dismissed 00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:36.759 as Bible babble. The negotiators would be saying, 00:18:36.859 --> 00:18:39.000 David, we want to work with you. We want a peaceful 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:42.680 resolution. And at the exact same time, the tactical 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.619 teams are outside cutting the power, cutting 00:18:45.619 --> 00:18:49.460 the water, and driving M60 tanks over the Davidians' 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:52.220 personal cars and motorcycles. It sends a completely 00:18:52.220 --> 00:18:55.440 mixed message. We want peace, but we just crushed 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.240 your Chevy. It destroyed any trust the negotiators 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.349 were trying to build. Koresh would get on the 00:19:00.349 --> 00:19:02.170 phone and say, you say you want to help, but 00:19:02.170 --> 00:19:04.509 your tanks are destroying my home. It validated 00:19:04.509 --> 00:19:07.309 his paranoia. It proved to him they weren't sincere. 00:19:07.589 --> 00:19:09.789 And then came the psychological warfare tactics, 00:19:10.049 --> 00:19:13.369 the psyops. I read the list of sounds they blasted 00:19:13.369 --> 00:19:15.369 over loudspeakers all night to deprive them of 00:19:15.369 --> 00:19:18.509 sleep. It's an incredible list. It is. They used 00:19:18.509 --> 00:19:21.099 jet plane noises. Pop music from artists like 00:19:21.099 --> 00:19:23.720 Nancy Sinatra, Tibetan Buddhist chanting, and 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:26.700 most infamously, the recorded screams of rabbits 00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:29.700 being slaughtered. Why rabbit screams? The theory 00:19:29.700 --> 00:19:33.259 is it's a deeply primal, unsettling sound that 00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:35.660 bypasses rational thought and creates stress. 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.059 It was all about sensory overload. Sleep deprivation. 00:19:40.180 --> 00:19:43.799 The idea is to break their will to resist. But 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:46.059 this is where the asymmetric reality comes back 00:19:46.059 --> 00:19:48.460 in a huge way. This is the critical failure. 00:19:48.859 --> 00:19:51.220 Scholars like James Tabor and Philip Arnold, 00:19:51.420 --> 00:19:53.759 experts in apocalyptic religions, they tried 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:56.279 to warn the FBI. They were desperately calling 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:58.299 the command post, sending faxes, trying to tell 00:19:58.299 --> 00:20:00.359 the commanders, you are dealing with a man who 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.400 believes he is living in the fifth seal of the 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.299 book of Revelation. Explain that. What does the 00:20:04.299 --> 00:20:06.500 fifth seal mean for them? In Quresh's specific 00:20:06.500 --> 00:20:08.420 theology, the fifth seal is the time when the 00:20:08.420 --> 00:20:10.859 faithful are persecuted and martyred by the forces 00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:13.380 of Babylon, which in his mind was... the U .S. 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:15.799 government. He believes the beast is coming to 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:17.940 destroy them before the end. So when you roll 00:20:17.940 --> 00:20:21.259 up in tanks and blast rabbit screams. You aren't 00:20:21.259 --> 00:20:24.059 breaking his will. You are playing your part 00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:26.859 in his movie. You are validating his prophecy. 00:20:27.140 --> 00:20:29.119 That's the paradox of force we talked about in 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:31.359 the intro. Exactly. Every tank that crushed a 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:33.559 fence, every helicopter that buzzed the compound, 00:20:33.859 --> 00:20:36.660 every threatening message just confirmed to his 00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:40.529 followers that Koresh was a true prophet. Look, 00:20:40.690 --> 00:20:43.250 you could say, I told you the beast would come, 00:20:43.369 --> 00:20:46.609 and here they are. The FBI thought they were 00:20:46.609 --> 00:20:49.289 applying tactical pressure. In reality, they 00:20:49.289 --> 00:20:52.009 were applying theological glue. They were bonding 00:20:52.009 --> 00:20:54.690 the group tighter together against their prophesied 00:20:54.690 --> 00:20:57.230 common enemy. There were some successes in the 00:20:57.230 --> 00:20:59.230 negotiations, though. We shouldn't glaze over 00:20:59.230 --> 00:21:02.930 that. 35 people did come out. That is true. 21 00:21:02.930 --> 00:21:05.710 children and 14 adults were released, mostly 00:21:05.710 --> 00:21:08.329 in the early stages of the siege. But as the 00:21:08.329 --> 00:21:10.690 tactical pressure ramped up, the exits stopped 00:21:10.690 --> 00:21:13.410 completely. Koresh kept moving the goalposts. 00:21:13.450 --> 00:21:15.509 He made a promise about a radio broadcast, right? 00:21:15.670 --> 00:21:19.210 He did. He demanded that a 58 -minute sermon 00:21:19.210 --> 00:21:22.009 of his be played on national radio. He promised 00:21:22.009 --> 00:21:24.269 that if they did it, he would lead his people 00:21:24.269 --> 00:21:27.789 out. The FBI, desperate for a breakthrough, arranged 00:21:27.789 --> 00:21:29.950 for it to be broadcast. They played the tape. 00:21:30.170 --> 00:21:32.450 And he didn't come out. He didn't come out. He 00:21:32.450 --> 00:21:34.650 claimed God had spoken to him again and told 00:21:34.650 --> 00:21:37.759 him to wait. To the FBI, this was the ultimate 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:40.720 act of bad faith. They saw him as a liar and 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:42.619 a manipulator who would never come out peacefully. 00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:45.119 And then came the manuscript. This was the final 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.279 delay, right? Yes. In mid -April, as the siege 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:50.759 dragged on, Kirish claims he has been authorized 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:53.140 by God to finally write his interpretation of 00:21:53.140 --> 00:21:54.660 the seven seals from the book of Revelation. 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:57.259 He promises that as soon as he finishes this 00:21:57.259 --> 00:21:59.240 manuscript, he and all his followers will surrender. 00:21:59.420 --> 00:22:01.339 And the FBI is sitting there thinking, is this 00:22:01.339 --> 00:22:04.599 just another stalling tactic, another radio broadcast 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:07.400 promise? The negotiators were actually hopeful. 00:22:07.740 --> 00:22:10.400 They thought, OK, this is different. He has a 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:12.940 concrete task. Let him write. If he finishes 00:22:12.940 --> 00:22:15.339 the manuscript, maybe he comes out. It was a 00:22:15.339 --> 00:22:18.279 tangible goal. But the tactical commanders were 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:20.619 done waiting. They were out of patience. They 00:22:20.619 --> 00:22:23.640 saw the manuscript as just another lie. Conditions 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.740 inside were deteriorating. No water, no electricity, 00:22:27.019 --> 00:22:29.500 reports of sewage backing up. And there were 00:22:29.500 --> 00:22:32.500 persistent reports of ongoing child abuse. That 00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:35.039 was the justification given publicly. Yes. The 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.259 justification for the final assault was the safety 00:22:37.259 --> 00:22:39.559 of the children. Though it's worth noting that 00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:42.039 HRT leaders later denied having any concrete 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:44.740 evidence of ongoing abuse during the siege itself. 00:22:45.019 --> 00:22:47.539 So the decision goes up the chain. Janet Reno, 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:49.920 the newly appointed attorney general, she's only 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.220 been on the job for a few weeks. She has to make 00:22:52.220 --> 00:22:54.680 the call. She approves the plan for the final 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:58.019 assault. April 19, 1993. The plan was to use 00:22:58.019 --> 00:23:01.059 CES gas, tear gas, but not just spray it like 00:23:01.059 --> 00:23:03.259 you would for crowd control. They used combat 00:23:03.259 --> 00:23:06.579 engineering vehicles, CEVs. Think of a tank with 00:23:06.579 --> 00:23:08.960 a giant boom arm attached to it, like a construction 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:10.900 vehicle on steroids. They were punching holes 00:23:10.900 --> 00:23:13.339 in the building. Right. The plan was to drive 00:23:13.339 --> 00:23:16.140 the CEV right up to the building, ram the boom 00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:18.839 through the exterior wall, and then inject the 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:22.089 CES gas deep into the structure. The idea was 00:23:22.089 --> 00:23:24.849 to create a gas chamber effect, make the air 00:23:24.849 --> 00:23:27.069 inside so unbreathable that the mothers would 00:23:27.069 --> 00:23:29.190 grab their children and run out the front door 00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:31.730 into the waiting arms of the FBI. It was supposed 00:23:31.730 --> 00:23:34.269 to be a non -lethal solution and the standoff. 00:23:34.309 --> 00:23:36.690 That was the plan. But they didn't run out. No. 00:23:36.730 --> 00:23:39.829 They hunkered down. Some put on gas masks. Some 00:23:39.829 --> 00:23:42.049 retreated to a concrete bunker inside the main 00:23:42.049 --> 00:23:44.890 building, a room they called the cooler. They 00:23:44.890 --> 00:23:47.450 had been preparing for this moment for 51 days. 00:23:47.869 --> 00:23:50.549 They believed this was the final test of faith. 00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:53.359 The operation starts at 6 .00 a .m. They are 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:56.480 punching holes, pumping gas for hours. The Davidians 00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:58.440 are firing back at the tanks. And then around 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:02.559 noon, the fire. 12 .07 p .m., to be precise. 00:24:02.740 --> 00:24:05.559 The first wisps of smoke are spotted. And because 00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:07.579 of the high gusting winds on the Texas plain 00:24:07.579 --> 00:24:09.380 and the fact that the building had been punched 00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:11.700 full of holes, creating a perfect draft, within 00:24:11.700 --> 00:24:13.779 minutes, the entire wooden structure became a 00:24:13.779 --> 00:24:16.059 raging inferno. And this is the part that everyone 00:24:16.059 --> 00:24:19.000 argues about. Who started the fire? This is the 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:22.440 central controversy of Waco. It is. If we look 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:24.880 at the government side, the official investigation, 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:27.599 the Danforth report, which was a massive special 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.480 counsel investigation years later, concluded 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:33.180 definitively that the Davidians started the fire 00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:35.000 themselves. What was their evidence for that? 00:24:35.259 --> 00:24:38.160 Their primary evidence was audio recordings from 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.700 listening devices the FBI had managed to plant 00:24:40.700 --> 00:24:43.700 inside the compound. On those tapes, you can 00:24:43.700 --> 00:24:45.579 hear voices saying things like, have you poured 00:24:45.579 --> 00:24:49.460 it yet? And light the fire. They also point to 00:24:49.460 --> 00:24:51.319 the fact that the fire started in three different 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:53.759 places at once. Right, which suggests it wasn't 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:56.619 an accident. Correct. Aerial infrared footage 00:24:56.619 --> 00:24:59.559 shows smoke rising from three distinct locations 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.000 almost simultaneously, which suggests a coordinated 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.220 effort to burn the building down from the inside. 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:07.720 The government's view is that this was a mass 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:10.799 suicide or a final act of apocalyptic defiance. 00:25:10.940 --> 00:25:13.119 But the survivors and critics tell a very different 00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:15.339 story. They do. They have two main theories. 00:25:15.500 --> 00:25:18.200 The first is that the CEVs, the tanks, when they 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:20.680 smash through the walls, knocked over propane 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:23.079 tanks or kerosene lanterns, starting the fire 00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:25.619 accidentally. The other theory, and this was 00:25:25.619 --> 00:25:28.680 a huge controversy, is that the FBI used pyrotechnic 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:31.319 tear gas rounds that ignited the building. Let's 00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:33.259 pause on that because that was a massive cover 00:25:33.259 --> 00:25:36.039 -up, wasn't it? For years, the FBI denied using 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:38.539 anything that could spark a fire. Absolutely. 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:43.539 For six years, from 1993 to 1999, the FBI categorically 00:25:43.539 --> 00:25:46.339 denied, under oath and to Congress, that they 00:25:46.339 --> 00:25:48.980 had used any pyrotechnic devices on April 19th. 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.680 And then they admitted it. Then, in 1999, under 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:53.480 intense scrutiny and facing new evidence, they 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:55.500 finally admitted that, yes, they did use a few 00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:58.200 military -grade pyrotechnic CS gas rounds. That 00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:01.079 is a huge admission, a game -changer. It is. 00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:03.519 However, and this is the government's crucial 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.940 defense, they claimed these rounds were fired 00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:08.319 early in the morning, hours before the fire started 00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.519 at noon. And they claimed they were fired at 00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:13.299 a concrete construction pit, a bunker located 00:26:13.299 --> 00:26:15.440 away from the main wooden building to try and 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:17.619 clear it out. They maintained those specific 00:26:17.619 --> 00:26:19.819 rounds did not and could not have started the 00:26:19.819 --> 00:26:22.039 main fire. But the damage to their credibility 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:25.319 was done. That admission alone destroyed so much 00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:28.480 trust. People asked, if they lied about the pyrotechnics 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:30.680 for six years, what else are they lying about? 00:26:31.130 --> 00:26:33.390 It fueled the conspiracy theories, absolutely. 00:26:33.710 --> 00:26:36.829 It gave oxygen to the idea of a cover -up. But 00:26:36.829 --> 00:26:39.609 regardless of what the spark was, the result 00:26:39.609 --> 00:26:42.789 was horrific. 76 people died in that fire. Including 00:26:42.789 --> 00:26:44.990 the children. Including somewhere between 20 00:26:44.990 --> 00:26:48.009 and 28 children. David Koresh died, though he 00:26:48.009 --> 00:26:49.910 didn't burn to death. His body was found with 00:26:49.910 --> 00:26:52.750 a gunshot wound to the head. The official finding 00:26:52.750 --> 00:26:55.250 is that it was likely a mercy killing or suicide 00:26:55.250 --> 00:26:57.930 by proxy committed by his top lieutenant, Steve 00:26:57.930 --> 00:27:00.640 Schneider, who then killed himself. The images 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:03.220 of that building burning. I mean, you watched 00:27:03.220 --> 00:27:04.980 it live on TV if you were old enough. It was 00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:07.740 horrific. It looked like hell on earth. And in 00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:10.420 the aftermath, the questions just piled up. You 00:27:10.420 --> 00:27:12.380 mentioned the Danforth report clearing the government 00:27:12.380 --> 00:27:15.039 of starting the fire, but it did find them negligent 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:18.019 in other ways. Yes, specifically regarding the 00:27:18.019 --> 00:27:20.279 failure to disclose the use of the pyrotechnics. 00:27:21.019 --> 00:27:23.539 But there are other lingering physical evidence 00:27:23.539 --> 00:27:27.019 issues that keep the skepticism alive. The missing 00:27:27.019 --> 00:27:30.210 door. The steel door from the front of the building. 00:27:30.410 --> 00:27:33.329 Exactly. The right -hand entry door. The Davidians 00:27:33.329 --> 00:27:35.730 claimed that the ATF shot in through that door 00:27:35.730 --> 00:27:38.190 during the initial raid in February, unprovoked. 00:27:38.549 --> 00:27:40.769 They said the bullet holes would prove the agents 00:27:40.769 --> 00:27:44.390 shot first. But after the fire, when the debris 00:27:44.390 --> 00:27:47.490 was cleared by federal authorities, the left 00:27:47.490 --> 00:27:49.589 door was there, but the right door was gone. 00:27:50.140 --> 00:27:52.599 It had disappeared. That is incredibly suspicious. 00:27:52.859 --> 00:27:55.039 I mean, how do you lose a 200 pound steel door 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:57.079 from a crime scene that is under complete federal 00:27:57.079 --> 00:27:59.539 control? It's the kind of detail that keeps the 00:27:59.539 --> 00:28:02.799 controversy alive. Then you have the FLIR footage 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:05.619 forward looking infrared. This is the thermal 00:28:05.619 --> 00:28:07.539 imaging, the black and white footage from the 00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:11.140 airplanes circling above. Right. Critics and 00:28:11.140 --> 00:28:15.700 a documentary called Waco. The rules of engagement 00:28:15.700 --> 00:28:18.960 claim that on the final day, you can see rhythmic 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.279 flashes coming from the government lines toward 00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:23.920 the back of the building while it's burning. 00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:26.259 And they argue these flashes are. They argue 00:28:26.259 --> 00:28:29.619 these are machine gun muzzle flashes. The accusation 00:28:29.619 --> 00:28:32.019 is that agents were shooting at Davidians who 00:28:32.019 --> 00:28:33.839 were trying to escape the fire from the rear 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.839 of the building. That is a dark accusation that 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.819 the FBI was gunning down people fleeing a fire. 00:28:39.980 --> 00:28:42.220 It is the darkest accusation leveled against 00:28:42.220 --> 00:28:44.579 the government. Now, the government brought in 00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:46.759 expert after expert who testified that those 00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:48.799 flashes were reflections of sunlight on debris 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.200 or heat signatures from the fire itself causing 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.579 artifacts in the camera. The Danforth report 00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:55.759 supported the government's view, noting that 00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:57.519 none of the victims' bodies had bullet wounds 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.420 consistent with being shot from outside. But 00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:02.500 for those who distrust the official narrative, 00:29:02.819 --> 00:29:05.420 the visual of those flashes remains very compelling. 00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:09.660 So the smoke clears, the trials happen, 12 Davidians 00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:12.240 are invited. What happened to them? It was a 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:14.539 mixed bag in court. They were acquitted of the 00:29:14.539 --> 00:29:16.920 most serious charge conspiracy to murder federal 00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:20.759 agents. The jury clearly felt the self -defense 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:23.940 argument regarding the initial raid, that they 00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:25.500 thought they were being attacked by an unknown 00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:29.200 force, had some weight. But several were convicted 00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:32.039 of lesser charges, like... Voluntary manslaughter 00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:34.920 and various weapons charges. They received very 00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:38.380 stiff sentences, some up to 40 years, largely 00:29:38.380 --> 00:29:41.079 due to the machine gun definitions, though some 00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:43.279 of those sentences were reduced later after Supreme 00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:46.359 Court ruling. But the real legacy of Waco wasn't 00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:48.380 in the courtroom. It was out in the world. It 00:29:48.380 --> 00:29:50.619 was in the minds of people who were watching 00:29:50.619 --> 00:29:53.619 this all unfold on their TVs. That is where the 00:29:53.619 --> 00:30:08.660 tragedy compounds. And one man in particular 00:30:08.660 --> 00:30:11.400 was watching very, very closely. Timothy McVeigh. 00:30:11.539 --> 00:30:13.660 He actually visited Waco during the siege, didn't 00:30:13.660 --> 00:30:15.700 he? He did. There are photographs of him there. 00:30:15.819 --> 00:30:18.660 He drove down to Texas, he stood at the roadblocks, 00:30:18.660 --> 00:30:21.099 and he sold bumper stickers with anti -government 00:30:21.099 --> 00:30:23.539 slogans. He saw the government tanks surrounding 00:30:23.539 --> 00:30:26.480 the building. He saw the fire. on TV. And exactly 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:29.700 two years later, to the day. April 19, 1995. 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:33.900 April 19, 1995. Timothy McVeigh parked a Ryder 00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:35.880 rental truck loaded with thousands of pounds 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:38.079 of fertilizer explosives in front of the Alfred 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:40.519 P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. 00:30:40.660 --> 00:30:43.700 He detonated it, killing 168 people, including 00:30:43.700 --> 00:30:46.250 19 children, in a daycare center. And he didn't 00:30:46.250 --> 00:30:49.130 hide his motivation. It was clear. No. He explicitly 00:30:49.130 --> 00:30:51.849 cited Waco and another federal standoff at Rupert 00:30:51.849 --> 00:30:54.289 Ridge as his motivation. He saw it as revenge. 00:30:54.609 --> 00:30:56.890 He viewed the Murrah Federal Building as a legitimate 00:30:56.890 --> 00:30:59.529 target, specifically because it housed offices 00:30:59.529 --> 00:31:02.190 for the ATF and other federal agencies he blamed 00:31:02.190 --> 00:31:04.509 for Waco. So you cannot talk about the Oklahoma 00:31:04.509 --> 00:31:06.450 City bombing without talking about Waco. They 00:31:06.450 --> 00:31:09.410 are inextricably linked. Waco was the radicalization 00:31:09.410 --> 00:31:11.609 point for McVeigh and the burgeoning militia 00:31:11.609 --> 00:31:14.009 movement of the 1990s. And it hasn't gone away. 00:31:14.109 --> 00:31:16.420 We mentioned this at the top. Even today, in 00:31:16.420 --> 00:31:20.519 2024, there are echoes. Yes. Just recently, Canadian 00:31:20.519 --> 00:31:23.680 authorities arrested men with ties to their military 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.599 who were accused of creating an anti -government 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:30.039 militia. And one of the suspects was recorded 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:33.400 in a wiretap explicitly warning of another Waco. 00:31:33.769 --> 00:31:37.029 The symbolism of Mount Carmel is still incredibly 00:31:37.029 --> 00:31:40.250 potent in the anti -government extremist sphere. 00:31:40.470 --> 00:31:43.089 It is the Alamo of that movement. It's entered 00:31:43.089 --> 00:31:45.410 the culture, too. You have the Paramount miniseries, 00:31:45.410 --> 00:31:47.609 multiple documentaries on Netflix. It's a story 00:31:47.609 --> 00:31:49.990 we keep retelling, trying to understand it. But 00:31:49.990 --> 00:31:51.690 I guess the real question is, have we learned 00:31:51.690 --> 00:31:54.190 the lesson? That is the big question. The FBI 00:31:54.190 --> 00:31:56.579 did change. To their credit, they updated their 00:31:56.579 --> 00:31:59.160 negotiation protocols after this. They are much 00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:01.000 more hesitant to use that kind of overwhelming 00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:03.960 tactical force in a barricade situation now. 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.160 They try to integrate behavioral science and 00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:08.720 religious experts more, but the scar remains. 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:11.220 The trust that was broken that day for a lot 00:32:11.220 --> 00:32:14.140 of people has never been fully restored. So what 00:32:14.140 --> 00:32:16.799 does this all mean? When we look back at the 00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.440 whole timeline, from the digging up of a corpse, 00:32:19.579 --> 00:32:22.819 to the sinful messiah article, to the lost element 00:32:22.819 --> 00:32:25.200 of surprise with the mailman, to the rabbit screams, 00:32:25.420 --> 00:32:28.880 to the fire. It feels like a tragedy of errors, 00:32:28.940 --> 00:32:31.940 a cascade of failure. It was a cascade of failure. 00:32:32.099 --> 00:32:34.799 A failure to understand religion, a failure of 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.700 tactical discipline on day one, a failure of 00:32:37.700 --> 00:32:40.039 communication between the negotiators and the 00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:42.720 tactical commanders during the siege, and, of 00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:44.920 course, the catastrophic failure of a leader 00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:47.819 inside, David Koresh, who was willing to sacrifice 00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:50.720 his followers, including children, for his apocalyptic 00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:53.859 vision. It's a lot to process, an incredible 00:32:53.859 --> 00:32:56.059 weight. It is. But if I can leave you with one 00:32:56.059 --> 00:32:58.119 final... Final thought. It's this. We often think 00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:00.460 of force as the ultimate problem solver. If you 00:33:00.460 --> 00:33:02.519 just have enough tanks, enough gas, enough armed 00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:05.579 men, you can control any outcome. But what Waco 00:33:05.579 --> 00:33:08.539 teaches us is the paradox of force. Break that 00:33:08.539 --> 00:33:11.619 down for us one last time. When you apply overwhelming 00:33:11.619 --> 00:33:15.720 aggressive pressure to a group that already believes 00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:18.099 the world is ending and that the government is 00:33:18.099 --> 00:33:21.859 the prophesied enemy, that force doesn't subdue 00:33:21.859 --> 00:33:24.940 them. It validates them. It makes their delusions 00:33:24.940 --> 00:33:27.900 real. It confirms their prophecy. And once you 00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:30.440 make their apocalypse real, you can no longer 00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:34.180 stop it. That is a chilling thought, validating 00:33:34.180 --> 00:33:36.619 the apocalypse. It is. And it's the question 00:33:36.619 --> 00:33:38.900 we need to remember every time we see a standoff 00:33:38.900 --> 00:33:41.240 like this begin to unfold. Are we solving the 00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:43.180 problem or are we just playing the role they 00:33:43.180 --> 00:33:45.319 wrote for us in their end of the world script? 00:33:45.769 --> 00:33:47.589 That is going to stick with me. Thank you for 00:33:47.589 --> 00:33:49.849 walking us through this. It's a dark chapter, 00:33:49.930 --> 00:33:52.230 but one we clearly need to understand. My pleasure. 00:33:52.509 --> 00:33:54.849 It's important history to grapple with. And thank 00:33:54.849 --> 00:33:57.049 you for listening to this deep dive. As always, 00:33:57.109 --> 00:33:59.009 check the source notes if you want to fall down 00:33:59.009 --> 00:34:00.789 the rabbit hole yourself. There is plenty more 00:34:00.789 --> 00:34:03.910 there. Until next time, stay curious. And stay 00:34:03.910 --> 00:34:05.430 critical. Bye for now.