WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.480 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today, we are 00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:06.120 walking into a story that for most of us feels 00:00:06.120 --> 00:00:08.140 like it's just burned into the collective memory. 00:00:08.580 --> 00:00:10.560 It's one of those events where if I just say 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:13.080 the word Waco, you immediately see the images. 00:00:13.220 --> 00:00:15.339 Oh, it's instantaneous. You see the fire. You 00:00:15.339 --> 00:00:17.379 see the tanks, you know, punching holes in the 00:00:17.379 --> 00:00:19.620 walls. Oh, it's the smoke. You see the FBI agents 00:00:19.620 --> 00:00:22.059 in those blue windbreakers standing out there 00:00:22.059 --> 00:00:26.359 in the Texas dust. It is the defining image of 00:00:26.359 --> 00:00:29.519 a government standoff gone. horribly, tragically 00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:32.399 wrong. Exactly. It's sort of frozen in time as 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:36.640 this 51 -day news cycle from 1993. But the mission 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:39.579 for today's deep dive is to completely dismantle 00:00:39.579 --> 00:00:42.619 that simplified view. We are going to peel back 00:00:42.619 --> 00:00:45.060 the layers of history that go back decades before 00:00:45.060 --> 00:00:47.159 the first shot was fired. Right. Because when 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:49.240 you look at the source material, the court documents, 00:00:49.420 --> 00:00:51.119 the theological manuscripts, the histories of 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:53.280 the sect, you realize that the Branch Davidians 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:55.340 weren't just a cult that popped up in the desert 00:00:55.340 --> 00:00:58.340 overnight. Far from it. That is, I think, the 00:00:58.340 --> 00:01:00.500 biggest misconception. David Koresh didn't invent 00:01:00.500 --> 00:01:03.039 this movement. He didn't build the theology from 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:06.060 scratch. He was actually a latecomer to a very 00:01:06.060 --> 00:01:09.500 complex, very old religious lineage. It's a whole 00:01:09.500 --> 00:01:12.819 family tree. It is. We're talking about a group 00:01:12.819 --> 00:01:16.700 with a history of prophets, massive power struggles, 00:01:16.739 --> 00:01:20.620 and theological schisms that make, I mean, Game 00:01:20.620 --> 00:01:22.680 of Thrones look like a children's book. And the 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:25.260 details we found in these records are... They 00:01:25.260 --> 00:01:27.939 are genuinely baffling. We're going to talk about 00:01:27.939 --> 00:01:30.420 theological debates that were settled by digging 00:01:30.420 --> 00:01:32.519 up corpses. Yeah, that actually happened. And 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:33.939 we're going to talk about eating ice cream with 00:01:33.939 --> 00:01:36.359 prosecutors after a shootout. Is Stranger Than 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:39.769 Fiction. But to understand the ending, to understand 00:01:39.769 --> 00:01:41.629 why those people stayed in that building while 00:01:41.629 --> 00:01:43.549 it burned, you have to understand the beginning. 00:01:43.670 --> 00:01:45.930 You have to understand the internal logic that 00:01:45.930 --> 00:01:48.629 was built up over 60 years. So let's unpack this. 00:01:48.670 --> 00:01:50.250 We have to rewind the clock all the way back 00:01:50.250 --> 00:01:53.030 to 1929. We aren't even in Texas yet. We're in 00:01:53.030 --> 00:01:55.849 Southern California, and we need to meet a man 00:01:55.849 --> 00:01:59.299 named Victor Howduff. Victor Howduff. He is the 00:01:59.299 --> 00:02:02.299 patriarch of this entire story. He was a Bulgarian 00:02:02.299 --> 00:02:04.379 immigrant who came to the United States and eventually 00:02:04.379 --> 00:02:06.879 converted to the Seventh Day Adventist Church. 00:02:07.219 --> 00:02:10.379 By the late 1920s, he was a Sabbath school teacher 00:02:10.379 --> 00:02:13.550 in Los Angeles. Okay. Before we go further, we 00:02:13.550 --> 00:02:15.710 really need to clarify what the Seventh -day 00:02:15.710 --> 00:02:18.629 Adventist church, the SDA church, actually is, 00:02:18.710 --> 00:02:20.969 because it is the soil from which the branch 00:02:20.969 --> 00:02:23.969 Davidians grew. Absolutely. This is crucial context. 00:02:24.229 --> 00:02:26.469 Right. This isn't some fringe group in itself. 00:02:26.569 --> 00:02:28.830 This is a mainstream Christian denomination. 00:02:29.110 --> 00:02:31.889 Correct. They are a major global denomination, 00:02:32.050 --> 00:02:34.849 but they have two very specific characteristics 00:02:34.849 --> 00:02:37.840 that are vital here. First, as the name implies, 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:40.919 they observe the Sabbath on Saturday, not Sunday. 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:42.840 It's a big distinction. A Saturday Sabbath church. 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:45.919 And second, they have a very, very intense focus 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:48.939 on the Advent or the second coming of Christ. 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:52.020 The entire church was basically born out of the 00:02:52.020 --> 00:02:54.680 belief that we are living in the end times. There's 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:56.780 an urgency to it. So Howdiff is a teacher in 00:02:56.780 --> 00:02:59.020 this environment. He's teaching Sabbath school. 00:02:59.139 --> 00:03:01.680 But he starts thinking the church has lost its 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:04.500 edge, doesn't he? Precisely. He felt they were 00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:07.240 getting too comfortable, too worldly. You know, 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:09.180 they were building hospitals, schools, becoming 00:03:09.180 --> 00:03:11.500 institutionalized. He thought they were losing 00:03:11.500 --> 00:03:13.139 that urgency about the end of the world. The 00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:16.460 fire was gone. The fire was gone. So in 1929, 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:18.840 Autef claims to have received a new message, 00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:21.680 a specialized message, just for the Adventist 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:24.620 church. He publishes these views in a book titled 00:03:24.620 --> 00:03:29.189 The Shepherd's Rod, The 144 ,000 Lies. a call 00:03:29.189 --> 00:03:31.629 for reformation. The shepherd's rod. I mean, 00:03:31.650 --> 00:03:33.629 that sounds authoritative. It sounds it's discipline. 00:03:33.949 --> 00:03:36.530 It was meant to be. The title references the 00:03:36.530 --> 00:03:39.370 book of Micah in the Bible. Hardev was essentially 00:03:39.370 --> 00:03:41.650 positioning himself as the rod of correction 00:03:41.650 --> 00:03:43.689 for the church. He is the one who's going to 00:03:43.689 --> 00:03:45.750 whip them back into shape. Exactly. He was calling 00:03:45.750 --> 00:03:48.539 for a purification of the church. He believed 00:03:48.539 --> 00:03:51.199 that before Christ could return, the church itself 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:54.240 had to be cleansed of the tares, the unfaithful 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:57.120 members. He believed he was identifying the 144 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:00.259 ,000 chosen people mentioned in the book of Revelation 00:04:00.259 --> 00:04:03.180 who would stand at the end of time. I can't imagine 00:04:03.180 --> 00:04:05.439 the church leadership was thrilled about a local 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:07.300 school teacher telling them they were doing it 00:04:07.300 --> 00:04:10.000 all wrong. They were not thrilled at all. The 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:12.819 Adventist leadership reviewed his work. And, 00:04:12.819 --> 00:04:14.879 well, they flatly rejected it. They said it was 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:17.519 contrary to basic church teachings. They viewed 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:20.560 it as divisive, heretical even. So what did they 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:23.180 do? They did what churches do when someone won't 00:04:23.180 --> 00:04:26.339 get in line. Local congregations disfellowshipped 00:04:26.339 --> 00:04:29.100 Hautef and anyone who followed him. They were 00:04:29.100 --> 00:04:31.279 kicked out. So they're out on their own. This 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:33.500 is the first schism. And usually when a guy gets 00:04:33.500 --> 00:04:35.199 kicked out of a church, the group just kind of 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:37.819 dissolves. But Hautef was determined. He was 00:04:37.819 --> 00:04:40.970 a true believer in his own message. In 1934, 00:04:41.170 --> 00:04:43.550 he took its followers and moved west to the wilderness, 00:04:43.829 --> 00:04:47.050 specifically an area west of Waco, Texas. Okay, 00:04:47.089 --> 00:04:49.230 so there is the Waco connection, established 00:04:49.230 --> 00:04:51.910 way back in the 30s. This wasn't just David Koresh 00:04:51.910 --> 00:04:54.069 throwing a dart at a map in the 90s. No, not 00:04:54.069 --> 00:04:57.449 at all. This land has a lineage. Howdiff established 00:04:57.449 --> 00:05:00.490 a headquarters there. And eventually, in 1942, 00:05:01.009 --> 00:05:03.670 he officially names the group the General Association 00:05:03.670 --> 00:05:07.300 of Davidian Seventh -Day Adventists. Let's pause 00:05:07.300 --> 00:05:09.019 on that name, Davidian. That's not a coincidence, 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:11.839 right? What's the significance? No, it's central 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.620 to their whole belief system. It indicates a 00:05:14.620 --> 00:05:17.220 central belief in the restoration of the Davidic 00:05:17.220 --> 00:05:19.879 kingdom of Israel. He would have taught that 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:22.620 part of the end times wasn't just about being 00:05:22.620 --> 00:05:24.319 raptured up to heaven. It was about something 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:26.959 on earth. It was about the restoration of a literal 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.199 kingdom on earth with its capital in Jerusalem. 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:33.420 They believed they were the vanguard for that 00:05:33.420 --> 00:05:36.370 kingdom. And the location they established, they 00:05:36.370 --> 00:05:39.350 called it the Mount Carmel Center. Mount Carmel. 00:05:39.350 --> 00:05:42.370 That sounds biblical. It is. Very much so. In 00:05:42.370 --> 00:05:44.649 the Bible, Mount Carmel is where the prophet 00:05:44.649 --> 00:05:47.110 Elijah confronted the false prophets of Baal 00:05:47.110 --> 00:05:50.870 and defeated them in a, well, in a fiery showdown. 00:05:50.870 --> 00:05:52.509 False place of showdown. It's a place where true 00:05:52.509 --> 00:05:55.779 authority confronts false authority. That's the 00:05:55.779 --> 00:05:57.800 vibe Howard was setting from the very beginning. 00:05:57.920 --> 00:05:59.839 Now, this is a crucial dynamic to understand. 00:05:59.980 --> 00:06:01.639 Even though they were kicked out of the main 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:03.959 Seventh -day Adventist church, they didn't just 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:05.860 ignore it. They didn't go start a completely 00:06:05.860 --> 00:06:08.639 new religion like Scientology or Mormonism. Right. 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.040 They viewed themselves as the real Adventists. 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:13.660 Think of it like a government in exile. They 00:06:13.660 --> 00:06:15.800 believed they were the only rightful continuation 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:19.060 of the Adventist message. They believed Victor 00:06:19.060 --> 00:06:21.879 Hadeff was the divinely selected prophet, the 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:24.899 true successor to Ellen G. White, who was a founder 00:06:24.899 --> 00:06:27.019 of the Seventh -day Adventist Church. So their 00:06:27.019 --> 00:06:29.639 mission wasn't to convert Methodists or Baptists. 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.120 Their mission was to convert other Adventists. 00:06:32.300 --> 00:06:35.680 Exactly. The Davidians, and later the Branch 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:39.480 Davidians, actively hunted. And that's the term 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:41.660 often used in the literature members of the current 00:06:41.660 --> 00:06:44.300 Seventh -day Adventist church. Hunted them. They 00:06:44.300 --> 00:06:46.180 would go to Adventist gatherings, camp meetings, 00:06:46.379 --> 00:06:48.639 hand out pamphlets, and try to convince people 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:51.569 that the main church was Laodicean. That's the 00:06:51.569 --> 00:06:54.029 biblical term for lukewarm. And that the real 00:06:54.029 --> 00:06:56.769 truth was with Howheff at Mount Carmel. That 00:06:56.769 --> 00:06:58.689 must have been incredibly annoying for the main 00:06:58.689 --> 00:07:01.389 church leadership. Annoying is putting it mildly. 00:07:01.430 --> 00:07:03.689 The main church had to issue regular warnings 00:07:03.689 --> 00:07:06.610 to their members about this shepherd's rod offshoot. 00:07:06.689 --> 00:07:08.610 They were terrified of these people poaching 00:07:08.610 --> 00:07:10.990 their flock. And this must have created a really 00:07:10.990 --> 00:07:14.550 deep us versus them mentality in the Davidian 00:07:14.550 --> 00:07:16.670 group. Oh, absolutely. They felt persecuted. 00:07:16.990 --> 00:07:19.889 They felt they were the small remnant holding 00:07:19.889 --> 00:07:22.350 the truth against a massive corrupt hierarchy. 00:07:22.610 --> 00:07:24.990 That psychology is so important. If you spend 00:07:24.990 --> 00:07:27.050 60 years believing you are the persecuted few 00:07:27.050 --> 00:07:29.949 holding the truth, you develop a very, very thick 00:07:29.949 --> 00:07:32.370 skin against outside pressure. Yeah, pressure 00:07:32.370 --> 00:07:34.230 from the government, from law enforcement. From 00:07:34.230 --> 00:07:36.410 anyone. It's all just Babylon trying to crush 00:07:36.410 --> 00:07:38.540 the truth. So Hauteff builds this community, 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:41.120 Mount Carmel. It's strict. It's focused on the 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.160 end times, but it's relatively stable. But then 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:48.199 in 1955, Victor Hauteff dies. And this seems 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:50.879 to be a recurring theme in this story. When the 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:54.199 prophet dies, things get chaotic. Power vacuums 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:56.759 are dangerous in prophetic movements. When Victor 00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:59.180 died, there was no clear successor named. His 00:07:59.180 --> 00:08:02.779 wife, Florence Hauteff, she basically usurped 00:08:02.779 --> 00:08:05.139 the leadership. She claimed to be a prophet as 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:07.240 well. And she didn't just maintain the status 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:09.720 quo. She decided to swing for the fences with 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:13.360 a big, bold prophecy. She did. And this is a 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:17.139 classic mistake in apocalyptic groups. She was 00:08:17.139 --> 00:08:19.899 convinced that the apocalypse was not just imminent, 00:08:20.019 --> 00:08:23.079 but that she knew the date. Oh, no. You never 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:25.040 put a date on it. You never put a date on it. 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.040 Specifically, she predicted the fulfillment of 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:30.860 Ezekiel 9 to Nate, a biblical prophecy of judgment 00:08:30.860 --> 00:08:33.440 and slaughter in Jerusalem. And she put a date 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:38.029 on it. April 22. 1959. Now wait, was this date 00:08:38.029 --> 00:08:40.269 in her husband's writings? Did Victor Hautef 00:08:40.269 --> 00:08:42.669 predict this? No, it wasn't. This was Florence's 00:08:42.669 --> 00:08:45.029 edition. She was interpreting the timeline herself. 00:08:45.450 --> 00:08:47.809 But the faithful listened. This was the next 00:08:47.809 --> 00:08:50.049 step. Hundreds of followers gathered at the Mount 00:08:50.049 --> 00:08:52.409 Carmel Center near Waco. People sold their homes, 00:08:52.450 --> 00:08:54.750 their businesses, liquidated their assets, and 00:08:54.750 --> 00:08:56.769 moved to Texas, waiting for the end of the world. 00:08:56.970 --> 00:09:00.769 April 20, 1959. They waited. And as you might 00:09:00.769 --> 00:09:03.029 guess, the anticipated events did not occur. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:06.480 The sun rose, the sun set, no slaughter, no kingdom, 00:09:06.539 --> 00:09:08.779 no apocalypse. The great disappointment? It was 00:09:08.779 --> 00:09:10.799 devastating for the group. It shattered their 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:13.059 credibility. You have to imagine the psychological 00:09:13.059 --> 00:09:15.220 toll. You've given it up everything, you're standing 00:09:15.220 --> 00:09:17.559 in a field in Texas, and just nothing happens. 00:09:17.779 --> 00:09:19.840 The silence must have been deafening. Following 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:22.279 this failure, the group began to disintegrate. 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:25.480 Florence eventually dissolved the Davidian Association 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:30.139 in 1962. She admitted error. She sold off most 00:09:30.139 --> 00:09:31.500 of the property. They had actually purchased 00:09:31.500 --> 00:09:34.120 a new, larger property they called New Mount 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:36.980 Carmel. And the group scattered. It seems like 00:09:36.980 --> 00:09:39.360 that should have been the end of the story. Failed 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:42.519 prophecy, group dissolves, everyone goes home. 00:09:42.860 --> 00:09:46.039 How on earth does this survive? Because belief 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:48.940 is resilient. And where there is a disillusioned 00:09:48.940 --> 00:09:51.159 flock, there is always someone waiting in the 00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:54.120 wings with a new message to explain why it failed. 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:56.340 Or to say, no, look over here, I have the real 00:09:56.340 --> 00:09:59.120 truth. Enter Benjamin Rodin. Enter Benjamin Rodin. 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:00.879 That's a name that becomes very, very important. 00:10:01.139 --> 00:10:03.600 So who was he? Benjamin Rodin was a follower 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:06.799 of Hautef. But back in 1955, when Victor died, 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:09.379 Radin had already proclaimed he had a new message 00:10:09.379 --> 00:10:12.019 from God. He had tried to claim leadership then, 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:14.539 but Florence blocked him. So he was waiting for 00:10:14.539 --> 00:10:17.299 his chance. He was. When Florence's prophecy 00:10:17.299 --> 00:10:21.419 failed so spectacularly in 1959, Rodin stepped 00:10:21.419 --> 00:10:24.980 in. And it essentially said, I told you so. You 00:10:24.980 --> 00:10:27.679 were following the wrong guide. God's message 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:30.700 didn't fail. Her message failed. He picked up 00:10:30.700 --> 00:10:33.200 the pieces. He did. He formed a group he called 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.720 the Branch Davidians. Okay, so here is the name 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.299 change. This is where the branch comes in. Why 00:10:38.299 --> 00:10:40.519 branch? It's an allusion to the anointed branch 00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:42.779 mentioned in the book of Zechariah chapters 3 00:10:42.779 --> 00:10:45.740 and 6. It's a messianic title. He was signaling 00:10:45.740 --> 00:10:47.720 that this was the next stage of the revelation. 00:10:48.419 --> 00:10:50.659 First came the shepherd's rod, which was Hotef. 00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:53.659 Now comes the branch, which is him, Rodin. And 00:10:53.659 --> 00:10:55.980 a new chapter. A new chapter. And he succeeded 00:10:55.980 --> 00:10:58.159 in taking control of the remnants of the group. 00:10:58.379 --> 00:11:00.600 And he wanted the land back, right? Because Florence 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.200 had sold it. He was obsessed with the land. Florence 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:05.539 had sold most of the new Mount Carmel property, 00:11:05.700 --> 00:11:08.480 but Rodin managed to take possession of the remaining 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:14.000 77 acres in 1962. By 1973, he bought that property 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:16.720 outright. And this is the specific plot of land 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:19.139 that would simply become known as Mount Carmel. 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:20.980 The place we all see in the news footage. That's 00:11:20.980 --> 00:11:23.740 the one. So Benjamin Rodin stabilizes the group. 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:26.320 He runs it for a while. He establishes the Branch 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:29.419 Davidian identity. But then he dies in 1978. 00:11:30.379 --> 00:11:33.360 And again, who takes over? His wife, Lois Roden. 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:35.840 She becomes the next Davidian prophet at the 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.139 compound. A second female prophet. Yes. And Lois 00:11:39.139 --> 00:11:40.940 was actually quite fascinating theologically. 00:11:41.139 --> 00:11:43.740 She began teaching that the Holy Spirit was feminine. 00:11:43.860 --> 00:11:46.559 She published a magazine called Shekinah. She 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:48.700 was trying to evolve the group's theology to 00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:51.500 bring in this feminine divine aspect. That's 00:11:51.500 --> 00:11:53.379 a pretty progressive idea for that kind of group. 00:11:53.539 --> 00:11:56.539 It was. But her leadership would face a challenge 00:11:56.539 --> 00:11:58.580 from a young man who arrived at Mount Carmel 00:11:58.580 --> 00:12:02.159 in 1981, a man named Vernon Howell. Vernon Howell, 00:12:02.179 --> 00:12:04.399 who we, of course, know better as David Koresh. 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:07.379 But he wasn't Koresh yet. Not yet. In 1981, he 00:12:07.379 --> 00:12:09.419 was just Vernon Howell. He was a young man, a 00:12:09.419 --> 00:12:11.840 high school dropout, a musician, a handyman. 00:12:12.059 --> 00:12:13.980 He had been kicked out of his local Adventist 00:12:13.980 --> 00:12:15.960 church for being a nuisance and trying to marry 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.639 the pastor's daughter. He comes to Mount Carmel 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:20.919 to study biblical prophecy under Lois Roden. 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:23.659 And here is where the story shifts from theological 00:12:23.659 --> 00:12:26.620 history to something that feels like a very messy 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:29.580 drama. It was a complicated dynamic. Howell was 00:12:29.580 --> 00:12:32.259 in his early 20s. Lois Roden was in her late 00:12:32.259 --> 00:12:36.259 60s. And yet, Howell engaged in an affair with 00:12:36.259 --> 00:12:39.279 her. That is a significant age gap. And surely 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:41.580 this wasn't just a romance. It was a power play, 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:44.620 right? It was absolutely a power play. But Howell 00:12:44.620 --> 00:12:47.960 wrapped it in theological justification. He claimed 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:50.820 God told him to do it. He told the group that 00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:52.980 he needed to father a child with the prophetess. 00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:57.000 A child with a woman in her late 60s. Yes. According 00:12:57.000 --> 00:12:59.460 to his understanding, this child would be the 00:12:59.460 --> 00:13:02.379 chosen one who would play a vital role in the 00:13:02.379 --> 00:13:05.149 end times. He was positioning himself not just 00:13:05.149 --> 00:13:08.610 as a student, but as a consort to the prophetess, 00:13:08.649 --> 00:13:11.610 someone essential to the divine plan. It's amazing 00:13:11.610 --> 00:13:14.289 how often personal desires get wrapped up in 00:13:14.289 --> 00:13:17.149 God's will in these narratives. But Lois wasn't 00:13:17.149 --> 00:13:19.070 the only rodent he had to deal with. She had 00:13:19.070 --> 00:13:21.299 a son, George Rodent. Right. George Roden felt 00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:23.200 he was the rightful heir. He was Ben and Lois' 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:25.799 son. He viewed himself as the next prophet by 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:28.080 bloodline. So you have the biological son versus 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.779 the young, charismatic lover. It was a recipe 00:13:30.779 --> 00:13:33.000 for disaster. And George Roden sounds like he 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:37.600 was intense. George was extremely volatile. He 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.100 reportedly wore a Star of David on his chest 00:13:40.100 --> 00:13:42.820 and carried an Uzi. He was not a guy you wanted 00:13:42.820 --> 00:13:46.019 to cross. When Lois died, the rivalry just exploded. 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:49.299 George claimed a presidency. But Vernon Howell 00:13:49.299 --> 00:13:50.960 had gained the loyalty of the majority of the 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:53.240 Davidians because he was simply a better preacher. 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:55.299 He had the charisma. He had the charisma George 00:13:55.299 --> 00:13:58.379 lacked. He could hold people spellbound for hours 00:13:58.379 --> 00:14:01.000 dissecting scripture. George was just angry. 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:03.659 So we have a schism within the schism. Exactly. 00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:07.299 By 1984, the group split. Howell and his followers 00:14:07.299 --> 00:14:10.059 were actually forced out of Mount Carmel. George 00:14:10.059 --> 00:14:12.179 Roden accused Howell of starting a fire that 00:14:12.179 --> 00:14:14.559 destroyed a $500 ,000 administration building 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:17.139 and press on the property. So Howell leaves. 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:19.740 He takes his followers to Palestine, Texas. They 00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:22.340 live in rough conditions, in buses and makeshift 00:14:22.340 --> 00:14:24.840 shelters, essentially in exile. Meanwhile, George 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:27.580 stays at Mount Carmel and renames the compound 00:14:27.580 --> 00:14:30.559 Rodenville. Rodenville, that really asserts ownership. 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.220 It does. But George is becoming more and more 00:14:33.220 --> 00:14:35.919 erratic. And this leads to perhaps the most bizarre 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.299 incident in the entire 60 -year history of the 00:14:39.299 --> 00:14:42.169 sect. The Corpse Challenge. The Corpse Challenge. 00:14:42.210 --> 00:14:44.149 I read this three times to make sure I wasn't 00:14:44.149 --> 00:14:46.570 hallucinating. Walk us through this. It was an 00:14:46.570 --> 00:14:49.149 attempt by George Rodin to prove his spiritual 00:14:49.149 --> 00:14:52.509 supremacy. He was tired of Vernon Howell claiming 00:14:52.509 --> 00:14:55.710 to be the true leader. So George issued a challenge, 00:14:55.750 --> 00:14:58.750 a duel. He said, if you are the true prophet, 00:14:58.950 --> 00:15:01.289 you should be able to raise the dead. And he 00:15:01.289 --> 00:15:03.289 don't mean that metaphorically. Yeah, no, no. 00:15:03.389 --> 00:15:06.710 George Rodin went to the community cemetery and 00:15:06.710 --> 00:15:09.620 exhumed a corpse. It was the body of a woman 00:15:09.620 --> 00:15:12.500 named Anna Hughes, a Davidian who had been dead 00:15:12.500 --> 00:15:15.159 for two decades. He dug up a skeleton. He dug 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:17.559 up a skeleton. He placed the remains in the chapel 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:20.120 and challenged Vernon Howell to come and resurrect 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:22.919 her. He said, whoever can bring her back to life 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:25.600 is the true leader. That is, I mean, it's horrifying, 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:29.279 but it's also just absurd. It is. Howell obviously 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:31.440 refused to participate in the resurrection contest. 00:15:31.940 --> 00:15:34.559 But he was smart. He saw a legal opportunity. 00:15:35.259 --> 00:15:38.000 Digging up a body is a felony. It's abuse of 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.500 a corpse. So Howell went to the local authorities. 00:15:40.580 --> 00:15:42.559 He went to the sheriff and said, George Roden 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:44.899 has dug up a body. You need to arrest him. And 00:15:44.899 --> 00:15:46.940 what did the sheriff say? The authorities told 00:15:46.940 --> 00:15:48.679 him they needed evidence. They couldn't just 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:50.580 raid the compound on his word. They told him 00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:53.519 to bring proofs. A photograph. And this is where 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:56.159 we get the dress rehearsal for 1993, right? Because 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:58.399 Howell decides to get that proof himself. In 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:02.120 a way, yes. On November 3rd, 1987, Vernon Howell 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:04.200 and seven of his followers prepared to go to 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:07.080 Mount Carmel. But they didn't just take a camera. 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:09.980 No. They dressed in camouflage. They blackened 00:16:09.980 --> 00:16:13.299 their faces. And they armed themselves with 5 00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:17.860 .223 caliber semi -automatic rifles, 2 .22 caliber 00:16:17.860 --> 00:16:21.440 rifles, two 12 -gauge shotguns, and nearly 400 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:24.299 rounds of ammunition. That is a lot of firepower 00:16:24.299 --> 00:16:26.419 for a photography expedition. It was an apparent 00:16:26.419 --> 00:16:29.299 attempt to retake the compound by force, using 00:16:29.299 --> 00:16:32.039 the photo as a pretext. They crept onto the property. 00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:34.820 A gunfight ensued between Howell's group and 00:16:34.820 --> 00:16:38.259 George Roden. Actual shooting? Yes. For nearly 00:16:38.259 --> 00:16:40.779 an hour, bullets were flying. George Roden was 00:16:40.779 --> 00:16:42.840 shot in the chest, but he survived. And you'd 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:44.779 think, okay, you raided a compound with semi 00:16:44.779 --> 00:16:46.779 -automatic rifles, you shot a guy, you're going 00:16:46.779 --> 00:16:48.980 to jail for a very long time. You would think. 00:16:49.179 --> 00:16:51.500 They were arrested. They went to trial for attempted 00:16:51.500 --> 00:16:54.720 murder. But here is the twist. Howell's defense 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.259 team argued that they were only there to get 00:16:57.259 --> 00:17:00.419 evidence of a crime, the corpse, and that George 00:17:00.419 --> 00:17:03.220 Roden... the madman with the Uzi, had fired first. 00:17:03.659 --> 00:17:06.079 They argued self -defense. And the jury bought 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:09.440 it. They did. The jury found Howell's seven followers 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:13.200 not guilty. And as for Howell himself, the jury 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:15.400 couldn't agree on a verdict. It was a mistrial. 00:17:15.660 --> 00:17:18.460 That is unbelievable. He walks. It emboldened 00:17:18.460 --> 00:17:21.200 them. It validated Howell's belief that he was 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:23.660 anointed, that God was protecting him from the 00:17:23.660 --> 00:17:26.039 legal system of Babylon. And this is a detail 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.579 I love. After the acquittal, Vernon Howell actually 00:17:29.579 --> 00:17:32.039 invited the prosecutors to Mount Carmel for ice 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:34.640 cream. No way! Yes, they sat down and had ice 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:36.799 cream. It shows the level of confidence or perhaps 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.339 arrogance that was building. He felt untouchable. 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:41.619 So what happens to George Rodin? Eventually, 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:44.099 George Rodin was sent to a mental hospital for 00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:46.779 separate murder. He killed a man completely unrelated 00:17:46.779 --> 00:17:49.920 to this saga with an axe, which allowed Howell 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:51.859 to finally take complete, undisputed control 00:17:51.859 --> 00:17:55.890 of Mount Carmel. So by the late 80s, Vernon Howell 00:17:55.890 --> 00:17:58.369 is the king of the hill. He has the land. He 00:17:58.369 --> 00:18:00.569 has the people. And this is when the transformation 00:18:00.569 --> 00:18:03.890 really solidifies. He changes his name. Yes. 00:18:03.970 --> 00:18:08.089 In 1990, he legally sheds the name Vernon Howell 00:18:08.089 --> 00:18:10.769 and becomes David Koresh. Let's break down that 00:18:10.769 --> 00:18:13.089 name. It's not random. It's a manifesto. It is 00:18:13.089 --> 00:18:16.549 absolutely a manifesto. David refers to the biblical 00:18:16.549 --> 00:18:19.980 King David. This implies a royal lineage. He 00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:22.059 is saying he's the spiritual heir to the throne 00:18:22.059 --> 00:18:24.920 of Israel. And Koresh? Koresh is the Hebrew form 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:27.500 of Cyrus. Cyrus the Great was the Persian king 00:18:27.500 --> 00:18:30.140 who conquered Babylon and allowed the Jews to 00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:32.880 return to Israel. He's a messianic figure, but 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.819 a Gentile one. So he's casting himself as a messianic 00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:38.819 figure, but a specific type. Cyrus wasn't a priest. 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.720 He was a conqueror, a king. Correct. He wanted 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:43.819 to establish a new lineage of world leaders. 00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:46.359 He saw himself as a spiritual king. And this 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:48.700 theological framework brings us to the Lamb Doctrine. 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:51.960 This is core Koresh theology. Okay. Koresh interpreted 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.680 Revelation chapter 5, which speaks of a lamb 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:56.980 who is worthy to open the seven seals of a scroll. 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.339 And traditionally, Christians believe the lamb 00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:03.079 is Jesus. Correct. But Koresh taught a distinction. 00:19:03.500 --> 00:19:06.599 He suggested that this lamb, the one who opens 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:09.920 the seals, is a sinful Messiah who comes before 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:12.460 Jesus to pave the way for the second coming. 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:16.119 The sinful Messiah. Yes. A flawed human figure. 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:19.740 And he identified himself as that lamb. He taught 00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:22.039 that Christ had waited 2 ,000 years to open the 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:25.500 seals, and now he, Koresh, was the only one who 00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:27.660 could unlock them. That is a massive claim. It 00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:30.059 essentially says, you cannot understand the Bible 00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:32.839 or get to God without me. It is. It's the ultimate 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.759 spiritual gatekeeping. And it changed the identity 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.819 of the group. By 1993, Koresh was encouraging 00:19:38.819 --> 00:19:41.200 his followers to stop calling themselves Branch 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:43.640 Davidians. That was the old way. He wanted them 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:45.859 to be students of the Seven Seals. And during 00:19:45.859 --> 00:19:48.079 the siege itself? During the siege, one follower 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:50.119 even announced they wanted to be known as Koreshians. 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.519 Koreshians. It really centers the entire faith 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:55.059 on him personally. It does. And this new lineage 00:19:55.059 --> 00:19:57.140 concept, the idea that he was establishing a 00:19:57.140 --> 00:19:59.900 new spiritual royalty, served as the basis for 00:19:59.900 --> 00:20:02.140 the allegations that later brought the ATF to 00:20:02.140 --> 00:20:04.039 their door. We have to touch on those allegations. 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.400 This is where the theology meets criminal behavior. 00:20:07.900 --> 00:20:11.460 Yes. The belief system justified polygamy for 00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:15.259 Koresh. He taught that as the lamb, he was entitled 00:20:15.259 --> 00:20:18.299 to and required to build the house of David. 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.619 He was accused of fathering children with members' 00:20:20.740 --> 00:20:23.160 wives. He dissolved the marriages of his male 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.759 followers and claimed the women as his spiritual 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:28.680 wives. And the men accepted this? They just gave 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:31.700 up their wives? Many did. It speaks to the power 00:20:31.700 --> 00:20:34.099 of the theology. If you believe this man holds 00:20:34.099 --> 00:20:36.500 the keys to the seven seals and the seven seals 00:20:36.500 --> 00:20:39.240 determine your eternal fate, you submit, you 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:42.119 sacrifice, even your marriage. And there were 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:44.279 allegations regarding underage girls as well. 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:46.640 Yes. The allegations were that some of these 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.539 wives were as young as 12 or 13. This was the 00:20:49.539 --> 00:20:51.980 house of David he was building. And this wasn't 00:20:51.980 --> 00:20:54.180 just internal gossip. It became a legal matter. 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:56.819 The state of Texas was investigating these claims 00:20:56.819 --> 00:20:58.930 of child abuse. But before we get to the law 00:20:58.930 --> 00:21:00.589 enforcement side, I want to talk about their 00:21:00.589 --> 00:21:03.089 flag. Symbols matter, and the flag they flew 00:21:03.089 --> 00:21:05.490 tells us a lot about their mindset. I'm glad 00:21:05.490 --> 00:21:07.509 you brought that up. Visuals are so important 00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:11.109 here. The original Davidian flag from 1942 had 00:21:11.109 --> 00:21:14.970 a red lion and a black six -pointed star. But 00:21:14.970 --> 00:21:17.990 under Koresh, things evolved. It changed. During 00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:21.190 the siege, they flew a flag that Steve Schneider... 00:21:21.349 --> 00:21:23.809 Koresh's right -hand man, described in negotiations. 00:21:24.329 --> 00:21:27.490 It contained a stylistic star of David and a 00:21:27.490 --> 00:21:30.329 fiery flying serpent. A fiery flying serpent? 00:21:30.470 --> 00:21:32.910 What is that? It's a reference to Isaiah chapter 00:21:32.910 --> 00:21:36.329 14. But more importantly, Koresh claimed this 00:21:36.329 --> 00:21:39.130 flag signified that Mount Carmel was a sovereign 00:21:39.130 --> 00:21:42.450 power. Sovereign power. That phrase sends chills 00:21:42.450 --> 00:21:44.390 down my spine because it implies they didn't 00:21:44.390 --> 00:21:46.170 see themselves as citizens of the U .S. anymore. 00:21:46.390 --> 00:21:48.390 They weren't Texans. They were their own nation. 00:21:48.630 --> 00:21:50.859 Exactly. They viewed the Mount Carmel Center 00:21:50.859 --> 00:21:52.960 not as a property in the United States, but as 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.579 the embassy of the kingdom of God. And when you 00:21:55.579 --> 00:21:57.480 believe you are a sovereign nation with a divine 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.339 mandate and federal agents show up at your door. 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:02.339 You don't see it as a police raid. You see it 00:22:02.339 --> 00:22:04.859 as an act of war. You see it as Babylon attacking 00:22:04.859 --> 00:22:08.160 Jerusalem. Which brings us to February 28, 1993. 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:12.099 The Spark. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and 00:22:12.099 --> 00:22:15.220 Firearms. the ATF, had obtained a search warrant. 00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:17.460 They were aware of the sexual abuse allegations, 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:20.440 but their primary jurisdiction was illegal weapons 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:23.259 violations. And they had significant evidence. 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:25.099 And they had good reason to suspect weapons, 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:27.619 right? It all started with a UPS driver. The 00:22:27.619 --> 00:22:30.259 mag bag incident. It's a classic example of how 00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:33.319 small things lead to big events. A UPS driver 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:35.160 had been delivering packages to the compound 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:48.099 for a while. Whoops. Whoops. He saw grenades. 00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:51.059 Grenades. Not like firearm parts. Actual grenades. 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.480 50 pineapple -style grenade holes. Now, owning 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.579 the holes isn't necessarily illegal if they aren't 00:22:56.579 --> 00:22:58.940 live, but combined with the black powder and 00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:01.460 the chemical orders, it painted a pretty clear 00:23:01.460 --> 00:23:04.140 picture of manufacturing explosive devices. That 00:23:04.140 --> 00:23:07.019 is a definite red flag for the ATF. So the ATF 00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:09.299 plans a raid. They call it Operation Trojan Horse. 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:11.599 They decide to execute the warrant on Sunday 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:15.410 morning, February 28th at 4 .20 a .m. 4 .20 in 00:23:15.410 --> 00:23:17.309 the morning. They're expecting the element of 00:23:17.309 --> 00:23:20.390 surprise. Catch them sleeping. But they didn't 00:23:20.390 --> 00:23:23.230 get it. A local reporter had been tipped off 00:23:23.230 --> 00:23:26.009 about the raid and asked a mail carrier for directions. 00:23:26.430 --> 00:23:29.109 That mail carrier happened to be David Koresh's 00:23:29.109 --> 00:23:31.650 brother -in -law. Oh, you cannot make this stuff 00:23:31.650 --> 00:23:34.309 up. He went straight to the compound. Koresh 00:23:34.309 --> 00:23:36.390 knew they were coming. He told his followers, 00:23:36.549 --> 00:23:39.970 the kingdom is here. He was prepared. So the 00:23:39.970 --> 00:23:42.680 ATF rolls up. And they came in cattle trailers, 00:23:42.819 --> 00:23:45.299 is that right? Yes. They were hidden in covered 00:23:45.299 --> 00:23:47.579 cattle trailers pulled by pickup trucks. They 00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:50.019 pulled up to the front of the compound. The agents 00:23:50.019 --> 00:23:53.720 poured out. And almost immediately, gunfire erupted. 00:23:53.819 --> 00:23:55.940 And we can debate who fired the first shot forever. 00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:58.660 But the result was a war zone. It was a firefight 00:23:58.660 --> 00:24:01.099 that lasted for approximately two hours. The 00:24:01.099 --> 00:24:03.160 agents were pinned down. They had lost the element 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:05.400 of surprise. They were taking fire from multiple 00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:07.380 points in the building, from windows, from the 00:24:07.380 --> 00:24:09.380 roof. The toll of that initial morning was horrific. 00:24:09.740 --> 00:24:13.119 It was. Four ATF agents were killed. Steve Willis, 00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:16.470 Robert Williams. Todd McKeon and Conway Charles 00:24:16.470 --> 00:24:19.710 LeBleu, 16 other agents were wounded. And inside 00:24:19.710 --> 00:24:22.069 the compound. Inside the compound, five Branch 00:24:22.069 --> 00:24:24.829 Davidians were killed in the initial raid. And 00:24:24.829 --> 00:24:26.990 another, Michael Schroeder, was shot dead later 00:24:26.990 --> 00:24:29.630 that day by agents as he tried to reenter the 00:24:29.630 --> 00:24:31.769 compound through the perimeter. There's a bizarre 00:24:31.769 --> 00:24:34.069 detail about the flag from that morning, too. 00:24:34.230 --> 00:24:36.789 Even in the chaos, they were thinking about symbols. 00:24:37.089 --> 00:24:40.450 Yes. Amidst the shooting, Koresh decided they 00:24:40.450 --> 00:24:43.460 needed to raise their flag. But in the confusion, 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:46.579 they grabbed the wrong flag. It was a satin flag 00:24:46.579 --> 00:24:49.859 with a pink six -pointed star on a gold field. 00:24:50.059 --> 00:24:52.460 Pink and gold. It had been a gift to Benjamin 00:24:52.460 --> 00:24:55.680 Rodin years prior. Rodin had never flown it because 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:57.759 he said the colors were wrong. They weren't biblically 00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:00.420 accurate. But Koresh hung it up that morning. 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:04.339 And that pink flag hung there in tatters, windblown, 00:25:04.339 --> 00:25:07.039 and bullet -riddled throughout the entire 51 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:10.160 -day siege. That is such a strange priority in 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.019 the middle of a gunfight. Put up the flag, even 00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:15.440 if it's the pink one. It speaks to the symbolic 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:17.920 nature of the conflict for them. This wasn't 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:20.259 just a shootout. It was a prophetic event. They 00:25:20.259 --> 00:25:22.400 were signaling to the world and to God who they 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:25.240 were. So the shooting stops. A ceasefire is negotiated. 00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:29.720 But the siege begins. The FBI takes command from 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.279 the ATF because federal agents have been killed. 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:35.859 Right. And thus began the 51 -day standoff. The 00:25:35.859 --> 00:25:39.880 FBI hostage rescue team, or HRT, set up a perimeter. 00:25:40.420 --> 00:25:42.859 Tanks Bradley fighting vehicles began patrolling 00:25:42.859 --> 00:25:45.059 the grounds. And this was a psychological war 00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:48.240 as much as a physical one. Absolutely. The FBI 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:50.839 used psyops tactics. They blasted loud music, 00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:53.420 recordings of rabbits being slaughtered, Tibetan 00:25:53.420 --> 00:25:55.980 chants, Nancy Sinatra day and night to deprive 00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:58.119 the Davidians of sleep. They cut the electricity. 00:25:58.400 --> 00:25:59.960 Meanwhile, negotiators are on the phone with 00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:02.720 Koresh. For hours and hours. Koresh would preach 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:04.660 to them. He would give them Bible studies. Early 00:26:04.660 --> 00:26:06.740 on, they managed to facilitate the release of 00:26:06.740 --> 00:26:10.470 19 children. But the parents stayed. And Koresh 00:26:10.470 --> 00:26:12.549 stayed. He claimed he was waiting for a message 00:26:12.549 --> 00:26:14.670 from God telling him when to surrender. Fast 00:26:14.670 --> 00:26:17.589 forward to April 19, 1993, the final assault. 00:26:17.789 --> 00:26:20.549 The FBI decides time is up. The patients had 00:26:20.549 --> 00:26:22.950 run out in Washington. Janet Reno, the attorney 00:26:22.950 --> 00:26:25.230 general, approved the plan. They moved for a 00:26:25.230 --> 00:26:27.750 final siege using heavy weaponry. We're talking 00:26:27.750 --> 00:26:31.430 .50 caliber rifles and armored combat engineering 00:26:31.430 --> 00:26:34.769 vehicles, CEVs, essentially tanks with battering 00:26:34.769 --> 00:26:37.109 rams and boon arms. The plan was to use tear 00:26:37.109 --> 00:26:39.380 gas, right? Flush them out without shooting. 00:26:39.500 --> 00:26:42.660 Yes. The idea was to introduce non -lethal gas 00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:45.779 to make the compound uninhabitable. They started 00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:47.759 systematically punching holes in the walls of 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:50.460 the compound and injecting CS gas. They pumped 00:26:50.460 --> 00:26:52.940 in massive amounts of gas. The official rules 00:26:52.940 --> 00:26:55.299 of engagement were that agents could only return 00:26:55.299 --> 00:26:57.880 fire, not actively assault with gunfire. But 00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:01.380 the Davidians had gas masks and a concrete bunker. 00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:03.880 Right. They didn't come out. The FBI escalated, 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:05.579 punching more holes, destroying parts of the 00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:07.579 building to open escape routes or to let the 00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:09.619 gas penetrate further. The building was starting 00:27:09.619 --> 00:27:12.279 to fall apart. And then around noon, the fire. 00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:15.059 Smoke was spotted. And within minutes, three 00:27:15.059 --> 00:27:17.279 fires broke out almost simultaneously in different 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.319 parts of the compound. And this is where the 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:21.500 narrative splits and has remained split for decades. 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:23.859 Right. We need to be clear on the varying accounts 00:27:23.859 --> 00:27:26.539 here because this is the source of so much controversy. 00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:29.660 The government maintains, and has always maintained, 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:31.859 supported by independent arson investigations, 00:27:32.539 --> 00:27:35.539 that the fires were deliberately started by the 00:27:35.539 --> 00:27:39.339 Branch Davidians. Mass suicide. Exactly. They 00:27:39.339 --> 00:27:41.519 cite listening device recordings where voices 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.440 inside seem to say, start the fire, pour the 00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:48.099 fuel, and light it. They argue it was a mass 00:27:48.099 --> 00:27:51.500 suicide pact, a final cleansing by fire. And 00:27:51.500 --> 00:27:54.400 the survivor view, what do they say? Some Branch 00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:56.640 Davidian survivors maintain that the fires were 00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.380 started accidentally, perhaps by lanterns being 00:27:59.380 --> 00:28:01.140 knocked over as the tanks smashed through the 00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:03.920 walls, shaking the building. Others believe it 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.460 was started by the assault itself, possibly from 00:28:06.460 --> 00:28:09.519 pyrotechnic tear gas rounds. The FBI denied using 00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:12.140 pyrotechnic rounds, correct? Initially, yes. 00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:14.660 Years later, it was revealed that some pyrotechnic 00:28:14.660 --> 00:28:16.880 rounds were used earlier in the day on a concrete 00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:19.839 bunker away from the main building. But the FBI 00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:21.700 maintains they did not use them on the wooden 00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:24.410 structure that burned. Whatever the cause, whether 00:28:24.410 --> 00:28:27.029 it was a lantern, a tear gas canister, or a match 00:28:27.029 --> 00:28:29.950 lit by a believer, the result was a tragedy of 00:28:29.950 --> 00:28:32.829 immense scale. Absolute devastation. The compound 00:28:32.829 --> 00:28:35.730 was a fire trap. Old wood, hay bales used for 00:28:35.730 --> 00:28:38.390 insulation, ammunition stockpiles cooking off. 00:28:38.589 --> 00:28:41.109 The Texas wind was whipping. It burned to the 00:28:41.109 --> 00:28:44.029 ground in under an hour. 76 members of the group 00:28:44.029 --> 00:28:47.769 died on April 19th. 76. Including more than 20 00:28:47.769 --> 00:28:50.579 children. Some died from falling rubble as the 00:28:50.579 --> 00:28:52.960 tanks breached the walls, some from the suffocating 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:55.779 effects of the fire and smoke, and some by gunshot 00:28:55.779 --> 00:28:58.980 wounds. Gunshot wounds? Yes. Autopsies reveal 00:28:58.980 --> 00:29:01.220 that several Davidians, including children, died 00:29:01.220 --> 00:29:03.660 of gunshot wounds fired at close range, what 00:29:03.660 --> 00:29:05.900 appears to be mercy killings or suicide packs 00:29:05.900 --> 00:29:09.359 as the fire consumed the building. Steve Schneider, 00:29:09.400 --> 00:29:11.259 the right -hand man, was found with a gunshot 00:29:11.259 --> 00:29:14.079 wound to the mouth. Koresh was found with a gunshot 00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:16.079 wound to the forehead. When you add the deaths 00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:18.279 from the initial raid in February. The total 00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:21.700 death count is 82 Branch Davidians and four ATF 00:29:21.700 --> 00:29:24.640 agents. It's just staggering. It's hard to process 00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:27.220 that many lives lost in an event that was broadcast 00:29:27.220 --> 00:29:29.819 live on television. It was a national trauma. 00:29:30.299 --> 00:29:33.619 And it's still being debated today. So the smoke 00:29:33.619 --> 00:29:37.099 clears. The compound is gone. Then comes the 00:29:37.099 --> 00:29:39.299 legal battle. What happened to the survivors? 00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:41.299 Because there were people who made it out of 00:29:41.299 --> 00:29:43.720 the fire. There were nine survivors on the 19th, 00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:46.220 and there were those who had left earlier. There 00:29:46.220 --> 00:29:48.880 was a massive criminal prosecution. A federal 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.039 grand jury indicted 12 of the survivors. The 00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:54.079 charges included aiding and abetting the murder 00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:56.819 of federal officers and weapons possession. Did 00:29:56.819 --> 00:29:58.960 they get convicted? It was mixed, and this is 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.819 fascinating. The jury actually acquitted four 00:30:01.819 --> 00:30:04.119 of them of all charges. Eight were convicted 00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:07.000 on firearms charges. Five were convicted of voluntary 00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:09.730 manslaughter. But the jury rejected the murder 00:30:09.730 --> 00:30:12.089 charges. That's surprising given the scale of 00:30:12.089 --> 00:30:14.390 the event. It suggests the jury felt the government 00:30:14.390 --> 00:30:16.730 shared some blame, or at least that the evidence 00:30:16.730 --> 00:30:19.670 of who shot who was murky. It shows how messy 00:30:19.670 --> 00:30:22.250 the evidence was. It wasn't a clean -cut case 00:30:22.250 --> 00:30:24.569 for them. And here's a fact that might surprise 00:30:24.569 --> 00:30:28.809 people. As of July 2007, all of the Branch Davidians 00:30:28.809 --> 00:30:30.950 who were imprisoned had been released. They're 00:30:30.950 --> 00:30:34.210 all out. Yes. They served their time. And there 00:30:34.210 --> 00:30:36.849 were civil suits, too. Survivors and families 00:30:36.849 --> 00:30:39.130 sued the U .S. government, Janet Reno, the governor 00:30:39.130 --> 00:30:42.150 of Texas. But those were mostly dismissed or 00:30:42.150 --> 00:30:45.130 resulted in take -nothing rulings. The courts 00:30:45.130 --> 00:30:47.190 generally found that the Davidians' own actions, 00:30:47.390 --> 00:30:50.210 not surrendering, starting fires, shooting back, 00:30:50.450 --> 00:30:52.990 were the primary cause of the tragedy. So in 00:30:52.990 --> 00:30:55.130 the eyes of the law, the book is largely closed. 00:30:55.470 --> 00:30:57.869 But what about the group itself? Did the Branch 00:30:57.869 --> 00:31:01.390 Davidians die with David Koresh? That's the common 00:31:01.390 --> 00:31:04.200 assumption. But it's incorrect. The group didn't 00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:06.599 disappear. It's blintered. And this goes back 00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:08.579 to that identity theft concept we touched on 00:31:08.579 --> 00:31:10.220 earlier. Right. The people who didn't follow 00:31:10.220 --> 00:31:12.740 Koresh. Exactly. Remember, Koresh took over the 00:31:12.740 --> 00:31:15.480 group. But there were Branch Davidians who remained 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:18.640 loyal to Lois Roden's lineage and never accepted 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:21.119 Koresh. They view Koresh's group essentially 00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:23.279 as identity thieves who stole their name and 00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:25.299 property. So there is a group out there today 00:31:25.299 --> 00:31:27.480 calling themselves Branch Davidians who want 00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:31.119 nothing to do with Waco 1993. Correct. That group 00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:33.680 was led by successors of Lois Roden, Doug Mitchell, 00:31:33.819 --> 00:31:36.539 and later Trent Wild. They call themselves the 00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:38.940 Branch Davidians. And if you ask them about the 00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:41.720 fire, they say, that was Koresh's tragedy, not 00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:45.279 ours. He hijacked our name. But are there people 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:48.500 who still believe in Koresh? Who still follow 00:31:48.500 --> 00:31:50.839 his teachings? Oh, yes. There was a group led 00:31:50.839 --> 00:31:52.960 by Clive Doyle, one of the survivors who escaped 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:55.839 the fire. He lived in Waco until his death in 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:59.079 2022. He continued to believe Koresh was a prophet. 00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.099 He actually awaited his resurrection. Wow. He 00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:03.619 believed the fire was just a necessary stage 00:32:03.619 --> 00:32:06.559 in the prophecy, a baptism by fire before the 00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:09.279 return. For them, the story wasn't over. Waiting 00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:11.279 for him to come back, that is true commitment 00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:13.079 to the narrative. And then there was a third 00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:16.259 group led by a man named Charles Pace. His group 00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:18.500 is called The Branch, The Lord Our Righteousness. 00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:20.940 That's a mouthful. What's his take on Koresh? 00:32:21.140 --> 00:32:23.819 It's nuanced. Pace lives on the property today. 00:32:24.329 --> 00:32:26.529 He believes Koresh was appointed by God initially, 00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:29.170 but that he twisted the Bible regarding the children 00:32:29.170 --> 00:32:32.029 and wives. Pace claims Koresh became corrupted 00:32:32.029 --> 00:32:34.250 by his own power. So sort of a fallen prophet. 00:32:34.650 --> 00:32:38.349 Exactly. Pace frames himself not as a prophet, 00:32:38.450 --> 00:32:41.529 but as a teacher of righteousness. He has a small 00:32:41.529 --> 00:32:43.849 denomination that is legally recognized. And 00:32:43.849 --> 00:32:46.109 what about the site, Mount Carmel? What's there 00:32:46.109 --> 00:32:49.690 now? A new church stands there today. There are 00:32:49.690 --> 00:32:52.430 memorials to those who died. People still live 00:32:52.430 --> 00:32:54.849 there. Groups are still studying the scrolls, 00:32:54.849 --> 00:32:57.250 waiting for the end times. The history didn't 00:32:57.250 --> 00:32:59.529 stop burning just because the cameras left. It's 00:32:59.529 --> 00:33:01.549 incredible. You know, we started this deep dive 00:33:01.549 --> 00:33:04.210 wanting to go beyond the headlines. And I think 00:33:04.210 --> 00:33:06.630 what stands out to me is just how inevitable 00:33:06.630 --> 00:33:08.730 some of this feels when you look at the history. 00:33:08.869 --> 00:33:11.730 It wasn't just a Sutter explosion. It was a slow 00:33:11.730 --> 00:33:14.789 burn of schisms, radicalization and isolation 00:33:14.789 --> 00:33:17.950 for 60 years. That's the key takeaway for me. 00:33:18.170 --> 00:33:20.450 We have to understand the internal logic of the 00:33:20.450 --> 00:33:23.519 group. To us looking from the outside, it was 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:25.960 a standoff with police over guns and warrants. 00:33:26.099 --> 00:33:28.799 But to them looking from the inside, it was the 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:30.920 fulfillment of specific prophecies they had been 00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:33.339 studying since the 1930s. The script was already 00:33:33.339 --> 00:33:35.660 written. The script was written long before the 00:33:35.660 --> 00:33:37.900 tank showed up. They weren't fighting the FBI. 00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:40.240 They were fighting the forces of Babylon and 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:42.259 the Valley of Decision. They were living in a 00:33:42.259 --> 00:33:44.480 different reality. Completely. And you cannot 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:47.599 de -escalate a situation when one side is operating 00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:49.880 on a divine timeline and the other is operating 00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:51.740 on a tactical timeline. They're not even in the 00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:53.319 same conversation. They're speaking different 00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:55.319 languages. Before we go, I want to leave our 00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:57.220 listeners with one final thought. You mentioned 00:33:57.220 --> 00:34:00.160 the flag earlier, the one with the serpent. Sovereign 00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:02.470 power flag. Right. They flew a flag claiming 00:34:02.470 --> 00:34:04.529 they were a sovereign power over the U .S. government. 00:34:04.890 --> 00:34:07.630 In a world where we see increasing ideological 00:34:07.630 --> 00:34:10.750 polarization, where people are retreating into 00:34:10.750 --> 00:34:14.230 their own information bubbles, where else might 00:34:14.230 --> 00:34:17.190 we be missing the deep, decades -old roots of 00:34:17.190 --> 00:34:19.210 a conflict because we're only looking at the 00:34:19.210 --> 00:34:21.389 fire at the end? That is the question we should 00:34:21.389 --> 00:34:24.929 be asking. We look at the explosion, but we ignore 00:34:24.929 --> 00:34:27.630 the fuse that has been burning for generations. 00:34:28.250 --> 00:34:30.840 Something to think about. Thanks for listening 00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:32.780 to the deep dive. We'll see you next time.