Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today, we are
walking into a story that for most of us feels
like it's just burned into the collective memory.
It's one of those events where if I just say
the word Waco, you immediately see the images.
Oh, it's instantaneous. You see the fire. You
see the tanks, you know, punching holes in the
walls. Oh, it's the smoke. You see the FBI agents
in those blue windbreakers standing out there
in the Texas dust. It is the defining image of
a government standoff gone. horribly, tragically
wrong. Exactly. It's sort of frozen in time as
this 51 -day news cycle from 1993. But the mission
for today's deep dive is to completely dismantle
that simplified view. We are going to peel back
the layers of history that go back decades before
the first shot was fired. Right. Because when
you look at the source material, the court documents,
the theological manuscripts, the histories of
the sect, you realize that the Branch Davidians
weren't just a cult that popped up in the desert
overnight. Far from it. That is, I think, the
biggest misconception. David Koresh didn't invent
this movement. He didn't build the theology from
scratch. He was actually a latecomer to a very
complex, very old religious lineage. It's a whole
family tree. It is. We're talking about a group
with a history of prophets, massive power struggles,
and theological schisms that make, I mean, Game
of Thrones look like a children's book. And the
details we found in these records are... They
are genuinely baffling. We're going to talk about
theological debates that were settled by digging
up corpses. Yeah, that actually happened. And
we're going to talk about eating ice cream with
prosecutors after a shootout. Is Stranger Than
Fiction. But to understand the ending, to understand
why those people stayed in that building while
it burned, you have to understand the beginning.
You have to understand the internal logic that
was built up over 60 years. So let's unpack this.
We have to rewind the clock all the way back
to 1929. We aren't even in Texas yet. We're in
Southern California, and we need to meet a man
named Victor Howduff. Victor Howduff. He is the
patriarch of this entire story. He was a Bulgarian
immigrant who came to the United States and eventually
converted to the Seventh Day Adventist Church.
By the late 1920s, he was a Sabbath school teacher
in Los Angeles. Okay. Before we go further, we
really need to clarify what the Seventh -day
Adventist church, the SDA church, actually is,
because it is the soil from which the branch
Davidians grew. Absolutely. This is crucial context.
Right. This isn't some fringe group in itself.
This is a mainstream Christian denomination.
Correct. They are a major global denomination,
but they have two very specific characteristics
that are vital here. First, as the name implies,
they observe the Sabbath on Saturday, not Sunday.
It's a big distinction. A Saturday Sabbath church.
And second, they have a very, very intense focus
on the Advent or the second coming of Christ.
The entire church was basically born out of the
belief that we are living in the end times. There's
an urgency to it. So Howdiff is a teacher in
this environment. He's teaching Sabbath school.
But he starts thinking the church has lost its
edge, doesn't he? Precisely. He felt they were
getting too comfortable, too worldly. You know,
they were building hospitals, schools, becoming
institutionalized. He thought they were losing
that urgency about the end of the world. The
fire was gone. The fire was gone. So in 1929,
Autef claims to have received a new message,
a specialized message, just for the Adventist
church. He publishes these views in a book titled
The Shepherd's Rod, The 144 ,000 Lies. a call
for reformation. The shepherd's rod. I mean,
that sounds authoritative. It sounds it's discipline.
It was meant to be. The title references the
book of Micah in the Bible. Hardev was essentially
positioning himself as the rod of correction
for the church. He is the one who's going to
whip them back into shape. Exactly. He was calling
for a purification of the church. He believed
that before Christ could return, the church itself
had to be cleansed of the tares, the unfaithful
members. He believed he was identifying the 144
,000 chosen people mentioned in the book of Revelation
who would stand at the end of time. I can't imagine
the church leadership was thrilled about a local
school teacher telling them they were doing it
all wrong. They were not thrilled at all. The
Adventist leadership reviewed his work. And,
well, they flatly rejected it. They said it was
contrary to basic church teachings. They viewed
it as divisive, heretical even. So what did they
do? They did what churches do when someone won't
get in line. Local congregations disfellowshipped
Hautef and anyone who followed him. They were
kicked out. So they're out on their own. This
is the first schism. And usually when a guy gets
kicked out of a church, the group just kind of
dissolves. But Hautef was determined. He was
a true believer in his own message. In 1934,
he took its followers and moved west to the wilderness,
specifically an area west of Waco, Texas. Okay,
so there is the Waco connection, established
way back in the 30s. This wasn't just David Koresh
throwing a dart at a map in the 90s. No, not
at all. This land has a lineage. Howdiff established
a headquarters there. And eventually, in 1942,
he officially names the group the General Association
of Davidian Seventh -Day Adventists. Let's pause
on that name, Davidian. That's not a coincidence,
right? What's the significance? No, it's central
to their whole belief system. It indicates a
central belief in the restoration of the Davidic
kingdom of Israel. He would have taught that
part of the end times wasn't just about being
raptured up to heaven. It was about something
on earth. It was about the restoration of a literal
kingdom on earth with its capital in Jerusalem.
They believed they were the vanguard for that
kingdom. And the location they established, they
called it the Mount Carmel Center. Mount Carmel.
That sounds biblical. It is. Very much so. In
the Bible, Mount Carmel is where the prophet
Elijah confronted the false prophets of Baal
and defeated them in a, well, in a fiery showdown.
False place of showdown. It's a place where true
authority confronts false authority. That's the
vibe Howard was setting from the very beginning.
Now, this is a crucial dynamic to understand.
Even though they were kicked out of the main
Seventh -day Adventist church, they didn't just
ignore it. They didn't go start a completely
new religion like Scientology or Mormonism. Right.
They viewed themselves as the real Adventists.
Think of it like a government in exile. They
believed they were the only rightful continuation
of the Adventist message. They believed Victor
Hadeff was the divinely selected prophet, the
true successor to Ellen G. White, who was a founder
of the Seventh -day Adventist Church. So their
mission wasn't to convert Methodists or Baptists.
Their mission was to convert other Adventists.
Exactly. The Davidians, and later the Branch
Davidians, actively hunted. And that's the term
often used in the literature members of the current
Seventh -day Adventist church. Hunted them. They
would go to Adventist gatherings, camp meetings,
hand out pamphlets, and try to convince people
that the main church was Laodicean. That's the
biblical term for lukewarm. And that the real
truth was with Howheff at Mount Carmel. That
must have been incredibly annoying for the main
church leadership. Annoying is putting it mildly.
The main church had to issue regular warnings
to their members about this shepherd's rod offshoot.
They were terrified of these people poaching
their flock. And this must have created a really
deep us versus them mentality in the Davidian
group. Oh, absolutely. They felt persecuted.
They felt they were the small remnant holding
the truth against a massive corrupt hierarchy.
That psychology is so important. If you spend
60 years believing you are the persecuted few
holding the truth, you develop a very, very thick
skin against outside pressure. Yeah, pressure
from the government, from law enforcement. From
anyone. It's all just Babylon trying to crush
the truth. So Hauteff builds this community,
Mount Carmel. It's strict. It's focused on the
end times, but it's relatively stable. But then
in 1955, Victor Hauteff dies. And this seems
to be a recurring theme in this story. When the
prophet dies, things get chaotic. Power vacuums
are dangerous in prophetic movements. When Victor
died, there was no clear successor named. His
wife, Florence Hauteff, she basically usurped
the leadership. She claimed to be a prophet as
well. And she didn't just maintain the status
quo. She decided to swing for the fences with
a big, bold prophecy. She did. And this is a
classic mistake in apocalyptic groups. She was
convinced that the apocalypse was not just imminent,
but that she knew the date. Oh, no. You never
put a date on it. You never put a date on it.
Specifically, she predicted the fulfillment of
Ezekiel 9 to Nate, a biblical prophecy of judgment
and slaughter in Jerusalem. And she put a date
on it. April 22. 1959. Now wait, was this date
in her husband's writings? Did Victor Hautef
predict this? No, it wasn't. This was Florence's
edition. She was interpreting the timeline herself.
But the faithful listened. This was the next
step. Hundreds of followers gathered at the Mount
Carmel Center near Waco. People sold their homes,
their businesses, liquidated their assets, and
moved to Texas, waiting for the end of the world.
April 20, 1959. They waited. And as you might
guess, the anticipated events did not occur.
The sun rose, the sun set, no slaughter, no kingdom,
no apocalypse. The great disappointment? It was
devastating for the group. It shattered their
credibility. You have to imagine the psychological
toll. You've given it up everything, you're standing
in a field in Texas, and just nothing happens.
The silence must have been deafening. Following
this failure, the group began to disintegrate.
Florence eventually dissolved the Davidian Association
in 1962. She admitted error. She sold off most
of the property. They had actually purchased
a new, larger property they called New Mount
Carmel. And the group scattered. It seems like
that should have been the end of the story. Failed
prophecy, group dissolves, everyone goes home.
How on earth does this survive? Because belief
is resilient. And where there is a disillusioned
flock, there is always someone waiting in the
wings with a new message to explain why it failed.
Or to say, no, look over here, I have the real
truth. Enter Benjamin Rodin. Enter Benjamin Rodin.
That's a name that becomes very, very important.
So who was he? Benjamin Rodin was a follower
of Hautef. But back in 1955, when Victor died,
Radin had already proclaimed he had a new message
from God. He had tried to claim leadership then,
but Florence blocked him. So he was waiting for
his chance. He was. When Florence's prophecy
failed so spectacularly in 1959, Rodin stepped
in. And it essentially said, I told you so. You
were following the wrong guide. God's message
didn't fail. Her message failed. He picked up
the pieces. He did. He formed a group he called
the Branch Davidians. Okay, so here is the name
change. This is where the branch comes in. Why
branch? It's an allusion to the anointed branch
mentioned in the book of Zechariah chapters 3
and 6. It's a messianic title. He was signaling
that this was the next stage of the revelation.
First came the shepherd's rod, which was Hotef.
Now comes the branch, which is him, Rodin. And
a new chapter. A new chapter. And he succeeded
in taking control of the remnants of the group.
And he wanted the land back, right? Because Florence
had sold it. He was obsessed with the land. Florence
had sold most of the new Mount Carmel property,
but Rodin managed to take possession of the remaining
77 acres in 1962. By 1973, he bought that property
outright. And this is the specific plot of land
that would simply become known as Mount Carmel.
The place we all see in the news footage. That's
the one. So Benjamin Rodin stabilizes the group.
He runs it for a while. He establishes the Branch
Davidian identity. But then he dies in 1978.
And again, who takes over? His wife, Lois Roden.
She becomes the next Davidian prophet at the
compound. A second female prophet. Yes. And Lois
was actually quite fascinating theologically.
She began teaching that the Holy Spirit was feminine.
She published a magazine called Shekinah. She
was trying to evolve the group's theology to
bring in this feminine divine aspect. That's
a pretty progressive idea for that kind of group.
It was. But her leadership would face a challenge
from a young man who arrived at Mount Carmel
in 1981, a man named Vernon Howell. Vernon Howell,
who we, of course, know better as David Koresh.
But he wasn't Koresh yet. Not yet. In 1981, he
was just Vernon Howell. He was a young man, a
high school dropout, a musician, a handyman.
He had been kicked out of his local Adventist
church for being a nuisance and trying to marry
the pastor's daughter. He comes to Mount Carmel
to study biblical prophecy under Lois Roden.
And here is where the story shifts from theological
history to something that feels like a very messy
drama. It was a complicated dynamic. Howell was
in his early 20s. Lois Roden was in her late
60s. And yet, Howell engaged in an affair with
her. That is a significant age gap. And surely
this wasn't just a romance. It was a power play,
right? It was absolutely a power play. But Howell
wrapped it in theological justification. He claimed
God told him to do it. He told the group that
he needed to father a child with the prophetess.
A child with a woman in her late 60s. Yes. According
to his understanding, this child would be the
chosen one who would play a vital role in the
end times. He was positioning himself not just
as a student, but as a consort to the prophetess,
someone essential to the divine plan. It's amazing
how often personal desires get wrapped up in
God's will in these narratives. But Lois wasn't
the only rodent he had to deal with. She had
a son, George Rodent. Right. George Roden felt
he was the rightful heir. He was Ben and Lois'
son. He viewed himself as the next prophet by
bloodline. So you have the biological son versus
the young, charismatic lover. It was a recipe
for disaster. And George Roden sounds like he
was intense. George was extremely volatile. He
reportedly wore a Star of David on his chest
and carried an Uzi. He was not a guy you wanted
to cross. When Lois died, the rivalry just exploded.
George claimed a presidency. But Vernon Howell
had gained the loyalty of the majority of the
Davidians because he was simply a better preacher.
He had the charisma. He had the charisma George
lacked. He could hold people spellbound for hours
dissecting scripture. George was just angry.
So we have a schism within the schism. Exactly.
By 1984, the group split. Howell and his followers
were actually forced out of Mount Carmel. George
Roden accused Howell of starting a fire that
destroyed a $500 ,000 administration building
and press on the property. So Howell leaves.
He takes his followers to Palestine, Texas. They
live in rough conditions, in buses and makeshift
shelters, essentially in exile. Meanwhile, George
stays at Mount Carmel and renames the compound
Rodenville. Rodenville, that really asserts ownership.
It does. But George is becoming more and more
erratic. And this leads to perhaps the most bizarre
incident in the entire 60 -year history of the
sect. The Corpse Challenge. The Corpse Challenge.
I read this three times to make sure I wasn't
hallucinating. Walk us through this. It was an
attempt by George Rodin to prove his spiritual
supremacy. He was tired of Vernon Howell claiming
to be the true leader. So George issued a challenge,
a duel. He said, if you are the true prophet,
you should be able to raise the dead. And he
don't mean that metaphorically. Yeah, no, no.
George Rodin went to the community cemetery and
exhumed a corpse. It was the body of a woman
named Anna Hughes, a Davidian who had been dead
for two decades. He dug up a skeleton. He dug
up a skeleton. He placed the remains in the chapel
and challenged Vernon Howell to come and resurrect
her. He said, whoever can bring her back to life
is the true leader. That is, I mean, it's horrifying,
but it's also just absurd. It is. Howell obviously
refused to participate in the resurrection contest.
But he was smart. He saw a legal opportunity.
Digging up a body is a felony. It's abuse of
a corpse. So Howell went to the local authorities.
He went to the sheriff and said, George Roden
has dug up a body. You need to arrest him. And
what did the sheriff say? The authorities told
him they needed evidence. They couldn't just
raid the compound on his word. They told him
to bring proofs. A photograph. And this is where
we get the dress rehearsal for 1993, right? Because
Howell decides to get that proof himself. In
a way, yes. On November 3rd, 1987, Vernon Howell
and seven of his followers prepared to go to
Mount Carmel. But they didn't just take a camera.
No. They dressed in camouflage. They blackened
their faces. And they armed themselves with 5
.223 caliber semi -automatic rifles, 2 .22 caliber
rifles, two 12 -gauge shotguns, and nearly 400
rounds of ammunition. That is a lot of firepower
for a photography expedition. It was an apparent
attempt to retake the compound by force, using
the photo as a pretext. They crept onto the property.
A gunfight ensued between Howell's group and
George Roden. Actual shooting? Yes. For nearly
an hour, bullets were flying. George Roden was
shot in the chest, but he survived. And you'd
think, okay, you raided a compound with semi
-automatic rifles, you shot a guy, you're going
to jail for a very long time. You would think.
They were arrested. They went to trial for attempted
murder. But here is the twist. Howell's defense
team argued that they were only there to get
evidence of a crime, the corpse, and that George
Roden... the madman with the Uzi, had fired first.
They argued self -defense. And the jury bought
it. They did. The jury found Howell's seven followers
not guilty. And as for Howell himself, the jury
couldn't agree on a verdict. It was a mistrial.
That is unbelievable. He walks. It emboldened
them. It validated Howell's belief that he was
anointed, that God was protecting him from the
legal system of Babylon. And this is a detail
I love. After the acquittal, Vernon Howell actually
invited the prosecutors to Mount Carmel for ice
cream. No way! Yes, they sat down and had ice
cream. It shows the level of confidence or perhaps
arrogance that was building. He felt untouchable.
So what happens to George Rodin? Eventually,
George Rodin was sent to a mental hospital for
separate murder. He killed a man completely unrelated
to this saga with an axe, which allowed Howell
to finally take complete, undisputed control
of Mount Carmel. So by the late 80s, Vernon Howell
is the king of the hill. He has the land. He
has the people. And this is when the transformation
really solidifies. He changes his name. Yes.
In 1990, he legally sheds the name Vernon Howell
and becomes David Koresh. Let's break down that
name. It's not random. It's a manifesto. It is
absolutely a manifesto. David refers to the biblical
King David. This implies a royal lineage. He
is saying he's the spiritual heir to the throne
of Israel. And Koresh? Koresh is the Hebrew form
of Cyrus. Cyrus the Great was the Persian king
who conquered Babylon and allowed the Jews to
return to Israel. He's a messianic figure, but
a Gentile one. So he's casting himself as a messianic
figure, but a specific type. Cyrus wasn't a priest.
He was a conqueror, a king. Correct. He wanted
to establish a new lineage of world leaders.
He saw himself as a spiritual king. And this
theological framework brings us to the Lamb Doctrine.
This is core Koresh theology. Okay. Koresh interpreted
Revelation chapter 5, which speaks of a lamb
who is worthy to open the seven seals of a scroll.
And traditionally, Christians believe the lamb
is Jesus. Correct. But Koresh taught a distinction.
He suggested that this lamb, the one who opens
the seals, is a sinful Messiah who comes before
Jesus to pave the way for the second coming.
The sinful Messiah. Yes. A flawed human figure.
And he identified himself as that lamb. He taught
that Christ had waited 2 ,000 years to open the
seals, and now he, Koresh, was the only one who
could unlock them. That is a massive claim. It
essentially says, you cannot understand the Bible
or get to God without me. It is. It's the ultimate
spiritual gatekeeping. And it changed the identity
of the group. By 1993, Koresh was encouraging
his followers to stop calling themselves Branch
Davidians. That was the old way. He wanted them
to be students of the Seven Seals. And during
the siege itself? During the siege, one follower
even announced they wanted to be known as Koreshians.
Koreshians. It really centers the entire faith
on him personally. It does. And this new lineage
concept, the idea that he was establishing a
new spiritual royalty, served as the basis for
the allegations that later brought the ATF to
their door. We have to touch on those allegations.
This is where the theology meets criminal behavior.
Yes. The belief system justified polygamy for
Koresh. He taught that as the lamb, he was entitled
to and required to build the house of David.
He was accused of fathering children with members'
wives. He dissolved the marriages of his male
followers and claimed the women as his spiritual
wives. And the men accepted this? They just gave
up their wives? Many did. It speaks to the power
of the theology. If you believe this man holds
the keys to the seven seals and the seven seals
determine your eternal fate, you submit, you
sacrifice, even your marriage. And there were
allegations regarding underage girls as well.
Yes. The allegations were that some of these
wives were as young as 12 or 13. This was the
house of David he was building. And this wasn't
just internal gossip. It became a legal matter.
The state of Texas was investigating these claims
of child abuse. But before we get to the law
enforcement side, I want to talk about their
flag. Symbols matter, and the flag they flew
tells us a lot about their mindset. I'm glad
you brought that up. Visuals are so important
here. The original Davidian flag from 1942 had
a red lion and a black six -pointed star. But
under Koresh, things evolved. It changed. During
the siege, they flew a flag that Steve Schneider...
Koresh's right -hand man, described in negotiations.
It contained a stylistic star of David and a
fiery flying serpent. A fiery flying serpent?
What is that? It's a reference to Isaiah chapter
14. But more importantly, Koresh claimed this
flag signified that Mount Carmel was a sovereign
power. Sovereign power. That phrase sends chills
down my spine because it implies they didn't
see themselves as citizens of the U .S. anymore.
They weren't Texans. They were their own nation.
Exactly. They viewed the Mount Carmel Center
not as a property in the United States, but as
the embassy of the kingdom of God. And when you
believe you are a sovereign nation with a divine
mandate and federal agents show up at your door.
You don't see it as a police raid. You see it
as an act of war. You see it as Babylon attacking
Jerusalem. Which brings us to February 28, 1993.
The Spark. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and
Firearms. the ATF, had obtained a search warrant.
They were aware of the sexual abuse allegations,
but their primary jurisdiction was illegal weapons
violations. And they had significant evidence.
And they had good reason to suspect weapons,
right? It all started with a UPS driver. The
mag bag incident. It's a classic example of how
small things lead to big events. A UPS driver
had been delivering packages to the compound
for a while. Whoops. Whoops. He saw grenades.
Grenades. Not like firearm parts. Actual grenades.
50 pineapple -style grenade holes. Now, owning
the holes isn't necessarily illegal if they aren't
live, but combined with the black powder and
the chemical orders, it painted a pretty clear
picture of manufacturing explosive devices. That
is a definite red flag for the ATF. So the ATF
plans a raid. They call it Operation Trojan Horse.
They decide to execute the warrant on Sunday
morning, February 28th at 4 .20 a .m. 4 .20 in
the morning. They're expecting the element of
surprise. Catch them sleeping. But they didn't
get it. A local reporter had been tipped off
about the raid and asked a mail carrier for directions.
That mail carrier happened to be David Koresh's
brother -in -law. Oh, you cannot make this stuff
up. He went straight to the compound. Koresh
knew they were coming. He told his followers,
the kingdom is here. He was prepared. So the
ATF rolls up. And they came in cattle trailers,
is that right? Yes. They were hidden in covered
cattle trailers pulled by pickup trucks. They
pulled up to the front of the compound. The agents
poured out. And almost immediately, gunfire erupted.
And we can debate who fired the first shot forever.
But the result was a war zone. It was a firefight
that lasted for approximately two hours. The
agents were pinned down. They had lost the element
of surprise. They were taking fire from multiple
points in the building, from windows, from the
roof. The toll of that initial morning was horrific.
It was. Four ATF agents were killed. Steve Willis,
Robert Williams. Todd McKeon and Conway Charles
LeBleu, 16 other agents were wounded. And inside
the compound. Inside the compound, five Branch
Davidians were killed in the initial raid. And
another, Michael Schroeder, was shot dead later
that day by agents as he tried to reenter the
compound through the perimeter. There's a bizarre
detail about the flag from that morning, too.
Even in the chaos, they were thinking about symbols.
Yes. Amidst the shooting, Koresh decided they
needed to raise their flag. But in the confusion,
they grabbed the wrong flag. It was a satin flag
with a pink six -pointed star on a gold field.
Pink and gold. It had been a gift to Benjamin
Rodin years prior. Rodin had never flown it because
he said the colors were wrong. They weren't biblically
accurate. But Koresh hung it up that morning.
And that pink flag hung there in tatters, windblown,
and bullet -riddled throughout the entire 51
-day siege. That is such a strange priority in
the middle of a gunfight. Put up the flag, even
if it's the pink one. It speaks to the symbolic
nature of the conflict for them. This wasn't
just a shootout. It was a prophetic event. They
were signaling to the world and to God who they
were. So the shooting stops. A ceasefire is negotiated.
But the siege begins. The FBI takes command from
the ATF because federal agents have been killed.
Right. And thus began the 51 -day standoff. The
FBI hostage rescue team, or HRT, set up a perimeter.
Tanks Bradley fighting vehicles began patrolling
the grounds. And this was a psychological war
as much as a physical one. Absolutely. The FBI
used psyops tactics. They blasted loud music,
recordings of rabbits being slaughtered, Tibetan
chants, Nancy Sinatra day and night to deprive
the Davidians of sleep. They cut the electricity.
Meanwhile, negotiators are on the phone with
Koresh. For hours and hours. Koresh would preach
to them. He would give them Bible studies. Early
on, they managed to facilitate the release of
19 children. But the parents stayed. And Koresh
stayed. He claimed he was waiting for a message
from God telling him when to surrender. Fast
forward to April 19, 1993, the final assault.
The FBI decides time is up. The patients had
run out in Washington. Janet Reno, the attorney
general, approved the plan. They moved for a
final siege using heavy weaponry. We're talking
.50 caliber rifles and armored combat engineering
vehicles, CEVs, essentially tanks with battering
rams and boon arms. The plan was to use tear
gas, right? Flush them out without shooting.
Yes. The idea was to introduce non -lethal gas
to make the compound uninhabitable. They started
systematically punching holes in the walls of
the compound and injecting CS gas. They pumped
in massive amounts of gas. The official rules
of engagement were that agents could only return
fire, not actively assault with gunfire. But
the Davidians had gas masks and a concrete bunker.
Right. They didn't come out. The FBI escalated,
punching more holes, destroying parts of the
building to open escape routes or to let the
gas penetrate further. The building was starting
to fall apart. And then around noon, the fire.
Smoke was spotted. And within minutes, three
fires broke out almost simultaneously in different
parts of the compound. And this is where the
narrative splits and has remained split for decades.
Right. We need to be clear on the varying accounts
here because this is the source of so much controversy.
The government maintains, and has always maintained,
supported by independent arson investigations,
that the fires were deliberately started by the
Branch Davidians. Mass suicide. Exactly. They
cite listening device recordings where voices
inside seem to say, start the fire, pour the
fuel, and light it. They argue it was a mass
suicide pact, a final cleansing by fire. And
the survivor view, what do they say? Some Branch
Davidian survivors maintain that the fires were
started accidentally, perhaps by lanterns being
knocked over as the tanks smashed through the
walls, shaking the building. Others believe it
was started by the assault itself, possibly from
pyrotechnic tear gas rounds. The FBI denied using
pyrotechnic rounds, correct? Initially, yes.
Years later, it was revealed that some pyrotechnic
rounds were used earlier in the day on a concrete
bunker away from the main building. But the FBI
maintains they did not use them on the wooden
structure that burned. Whatever the cause, whether
it was a lantern, a tear gas canister, or a match
lit by a believer, the result was a tragedy of
immense scale. Absolute devastation. The compound
was a fire trap. Old wood, hay bales used for
insulation, ammunition stockpiles cooking off.
The Texas wind was whipping. It burned to the
ground in under an hour. 76 members of the group
died on April 19th. 76. Including more than 20
children. Some died from falling rubble as the
tanks breached the walls, some from the suffocating
effects of the fire and smoke, and some by gunshot
wounds. Gunshot wounds? Yes. Autopsies reveal
that several Davidians, including children, died
of gunshot wounds fired at close range, what
appears to be mercy killings or suicide packs
as the fire consumed the building. Steve Schneider,
the right -hand man, was found with a gunshot
wound to the mouth. Koresh was found with a gunshot
wound to the forehead. When you add the deaths
from the initial raid in February. The total
death count is 82 Branch Davidians and four ATF
agents. It's just staggering. It's hard to process
that many lives lost in an event that was broadcast
live on television. It was a national trauma.
And it's still being debated today. So the smoke
clears. The compound is gone. Then comes the
legal battle. What happened to the survivors?
Because there were people who made it out of
the fire. There were nine survivors on the 19th,
and there were those who had left earlier. There
was a massive criminal prosecution. A federal
grand jury indicted 12 of the survivors. The
charges included aiding and abetting the murder
of federal officers and weapons possession. Did
they get convicted? It was mixed, and this is
fascinating. The jury actually acquitted four
of them of all charges. Eight were convicted
on firearms charges. Five were convicted of voluntary
manslaughter. But the jury rejected the murder
charges. That's surprising given the scale of
the event. It suggests the jury felt the government
shared some blame, or at least that the evidence
of who shot who was murky. It shows how messy
the evidence was. It wasn't a clean -cut case
for them. And here's a fact that might surprise
people. As of July 2007, all of the Branch Davidians
who were imprisoned had been released. They're
all out. Yes. They served their time. And there
were civil suits, too. Survivors and families
sued the U .S. government, Janet Reno, the governor
of Texas. But those were mostly dismissed or
resulted in take -nothing rulings. The courts
generally found that the Davidians' own actions,
not surrendering, starting fires, shooting back,
were the primary cause of the tragedy. So in
the eyes of the law, the book is largely closed.
But what about the group itself? Did the Branch
Davidians die with David Koresh? That's the common
assumption. But it's incorrect. The group didn't
disappear. It's blintered. And this goes back
to that identity theft concept we touched on
earlier. Right. The people who didn't follow
Koresh. Exactly. Remember, Koresh took over the
group. But there were Branch Davidians who remained
loyal to Lois Roden's lineage and never accepted
Koresh. They view Koresh's group essentially
as identity thieves who stole their name and
property. So there is a group out there today
calling themselves Branch Davidians who want
nothing to do with Waco 1993. Correct. That group
was led by successors of Lois Roden, Doug Mitchell,
and later Trent Wild. They call themselves the
Branch Davidians. And if you ask them about the
fire, they say, that was Koresh's tragedy, not
ours. He hijacked our name. But are there people
who still believe in Koresh? Who still follow
his teachings? Oh, yes. There was a group led
by Clive Doyle, one of the survivors who escaped
the fire. He lived in Waco until his death in
2022. He continued to believe Koresh was a prophet.
He actually awaited his resurrection. Wow. He
believed the fire was just a necessary stage
in the prophecy, a baptism by fire before the
return. For them, the story wasn't over. Waiting
for him to come back, that is true commitment
to the narrative. And then there was a third
group led by a man named Charles Pace. His group
is called The Branch, The Lord Our Righteousness.
That's a mouthful. What's his take on Koresh?
It's nuanced. Pace lives on the property today.
He believes Koresh was appointed by God initially,
but that he twisted the Bible regarding the children
and wives. Pace claims Koresh became corrupted
by his own power. So sort of a fallen prophet.
Exactly. Pace frames himself not as a prophet,
but as a teacher of righteousness. He has a small
denomination that is legally recognized. And
what about the site, Mount Carmel? What's there
now? A new church stands there today. There are
memorials to those who died. People still live
there. Groups are still studying the scrolls,
waiting for the end times. The history didn't
stop burning just because the cameras left. It's
incredible. You know, we started this deep dive
wanting to go beyond the headlines. And I think
what stands out to me is just how inevitable
some of this feels when you look at the history.
It wasn't just a Sutter explosion. It was a slow
burn of schisms, radicalization and isolation
for 60 years. That's the key takeaway for me.
We have to understand the internal logic of the
group. To us looking from the outside, it was
a standoff with police over guns and warrants.
But to them looking from the inside, it was the
fulfillment of specific prophecies they had been
studying since the 1930s. The script was already
written. The script was written long before the
tank showed up. They weren't fighting the FBI.
They were fighting the forces of Babylon and
the Valley of Decision. They were living in a
different reality. Completely. And you cannot
de -escalate a situation when one side is operating
on a divine timeline and the other is operating
on a tactical timeline. They're not even in the
same conversation. They're speaking different
languages. Before we go, I want to leave our
listeners with one final thought. You mentioned
the flag earlier, the one with the serpent. Sovereign
power flag. Right. They flew a flag claiming
they were a sovereign power over the U .S. government.
In a world where we see increasing ideological
polarization, where people are retreating into
their own information bubbles, where else might
we be missing the deep, decades -old roots of
a conflict because we're only looking at the
fire at the end? That is the question we should
be asking. We look at the explosion, but we ignore
the fuse that has been burning for generations.
Something to think about. Thanks for listening
to the deep dive. We'll see you next time.