WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.779 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. I have to be honest, 00:00:02.940 --> 00:00:05.240 usually when we sit down to record these, I have 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:07.240 a stack of notes and I'm ready to jump in with 00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:09.619 a lot of energy. But looking at the stack of 00:00:09.619 --> 00:00:12.359 sources we have on the table today, it's heavy. 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:15.039 It really is. Physically heavy. Sure, we've got 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:18.500 biographical records, court transcripts and archives 00:00:18.500 --> 00:00:21.600 from the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit. But it's 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.679 the content that feels like it has a gravitational 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:26.969 pull. It does. We are staring into an abyss today. 00:00:27.109 --> 00:00:29.050 There's no other way to put it. We really are. 00:00:29.149 --> 00:00:32.420 We're looking at a figure who is a complete paradox 00:00:32.420 --> 00:00:34.740 in the history of American crime. We're talking 00:00:34.740 --> 00:00:37.780 about Edvin Emil Kemper III. Known to the world, 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:40.359 of course, as the co -ed killer. Right. And the 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:42.859 first thing that hits you before you even get 00:00:42.859 --> 00:00:45.799 to the crimes is just the sheer physical presence 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:48.179 of the man. I mean, looking at these photos in 00:00:48.179 --> 00:00:50.780 the file. It's Seger. He was six feet, nine inches 00:00:50.780 --> 00:00:54.100 tall. Six nine. And weighed nearly 300 pounds. 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:58.020 He was a literal giant. A giant who, and this 00:00:58.020 --> 00:01:00.590 is the first disconnect. by all accounts, from 00:01:00.590 --> 00:01:02.689 the local police who knew him before he was caught, 00:01:02.829 --> 00:01:05.769 was a friendly nuisance. A friendly nuisance? 00:01:05.909 --> 00:01:07.750 What does that even mean? It means he was the 00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:10.010 guy who hung around the cop bar, the jury room, 00:01:10.170 --> 00:01:13.170 bought officers drinks, listened to their stories. 00:01:13.370 --> 00:01:16.189 He was a police buff. They called him Big Ed. 00:01:16.370 --> 00:01:19.489 He was just there. A harmless, oversized guy 00:01:19.489 --> 00:01:21.969 who was maybe a little lonely. So when you see 00:01:21.969 --> 00:01:24.569 someone that size, your brain automatically categorizes 00:01:24.569 --> 00:01:26.769 them. You expect a brute. You expect a thug. 00:01:27.069 --> 00:01:29.609 Exactly. You don't expect a man with a genius 00:01:29.609 --> 00:01:31.890 level IQ. And that's what I wanted to ask you 00:01:31.890 --> 00:01:34.810 about. The records say his IQ was tested multiple 00:01:34.810 --> 00:01:37.909 times, and it always came back between 136 and 00:01:37.909 --> 00:01:40.989 145. Correct. That's not just smart. That's, 00:01:40.989 --> 00:01:43.730 what, top 1 or 2 percent? It's well into the 00:01:43.730 --> 00:01:46.230 genius range. To put it in perspective for you, 00:01:46.250 --> 00:01:48.209 that's higher than most of the psychiatrists 00:01:48.209 --> 00:01:50.730 who were tasked with evaluating him. He was, 00:01:50.829 --> 00:01:52.950 in all likelihood, the smartest person in any 00:01:52.950 --> 00:01:55.219 room he was in. And that creates the core tension 00:01:55.219 --> 00:01:57.840 of this entire deep dive, doesn't it? It's the 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:00.159 central question. How does a man who possessed 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:02.439 that level of intellect, who was polite, who 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:06.859 spent 5 ,000 hours, 5 ,000 hours narrating audiobooks 00:02:06.859 --> 00:02:09.479 for the blind? Reading children's stories. Star 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:12.759 Wars. Right. How does that same man possess the 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:15.960 capacity to dismember college students and bury 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:18.580 a human head in his mother's garden? It's the 00:02:18.580 --> 00:02:21.479 ultimate Jekyll and Hyde scenario, but without 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:24.710 the potion. It's all happening in one mind, all 00:02:24.710 --> 00:02:27.490 at the same time. Okay. So here is the mission 00:02:27.490 --> 00:02:30.150 for today. We aren't just going to read a timeline 00:02:30.150 --> 00:02:32.870 of horror stories. Anyone can look up a Wikipedia 00:02:32.870 --> 00:02:36.009 page for that. We want to analyze the taxonomy 00:02:36.009 --> 00:02:39.169 of this specific type of predator. Because Kemper 00:02:39.169 --> 00:02:41.250 isn't just a killer. He's arguably the reason 00:02:41.250 --> 00:02:43.770 we understand modern criminal profiling, right? 00:02:43.849 --> 00:02:46.409 He is the prototype. He is the Rosetta Stone 00:02:46.409 --> 00:02:49.069 for a certain type of killer, specifically for 00:02:49.069 --> 00:02:51.719 what the FBI calls the organized killer. So people 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:54.219 like John Douglas, Robert Ressler, the Mindhunter 00:02:54.219 --> 00:02:56.639 guys. Their work would look very, very different 00:02:56.639 --> 00:02:58.759 today without the hours they spent talking to 00:02:58.759 --> 00:03:01.000 Edmund Kemper. So we need to look at the systemic 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:03.960 failures that released him, the intense psychological 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:06.759 warfare with his mother, and the chilling, chilling 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:09.439 rationality he applied to murder. Okay, let's 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:11.819 unpack this. We have to start at the very beginning. 00:03:12.740 --> 00:03:15.500 Section one of our outline, the creation of a 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:18.740 monster. And with Kempel, is it fair to say we 00:03:18.740 --> 00:03:21.139 have to look at the biology first? Because he 00:03:21.139 --> 00:03:23.939 was massive from day one. You can't ignore the 00:03:23.939 --> 00:03:26.439 biology. You simply can't. He was born in Burbank, 00:03:26.500 --> 00:03:29.719 California in 1948. And get this, he weighed 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:33.219 13 pounds at birth. Wait, 13 pounds. That sounds 00:03:33.219 --> 00:03:36.419 medically dangerous, especially in 1948. It was 00:03:36.419 --> 00:03:39.419 huge. I mean, that's practically a toddler. And 00:03:39.419 --> 00:03:41.710 it didn't stop there. By age four, he was a full 00:03:41.710 --> 00:03:43.650 head taller than anyone else in his peer group. 00:03:43.789 --> 00:03:45.849 So right from the start, before any psychology 00:03:45.849 --> 00:03:48.210 comes into play, he is physically alienated. 00:03:48.229 --> 00:03:51.330 He is other. He doesn't fit in, literally. He's 00:03:51.330 --> 00:03:53.430 the giant in the kindergarten class, and that 00:03:53.430 --> 00:03:54.949 sets a precedent. But if we want to talk about 00:03:54.949 --> 00:03:57.090 the nature versus nurture cauldron, we have to 00:03:57.090 --> 00:03:59.770 look at the home life. His parents, Edmund Jr. 00:03:59.969 --> 00:04:02.449 and Clarnell Elizabeth Kemper. The sources describe 00:04:02.449 --> 00:04:04.719 their relationship as pretty volatile. Volatile 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:06.539 is putting mildly. It was toxic. It was a war 00:04:06.539 --> 00:04:09.819 zone. And there's a quote from his father, Edmund 00:04:09.819 --> 00:04:12.500 Jr., that really sets the scene for me. He was 00:04:12.500 --> 00:04:15.439 a World War II veteran. He'd seen combat. He'd 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:17.459 also been involved in testing nuclear weapons 00:04:17.459 --> 00:04:19.980 at the Pacific Proving Grounds. So this is a 00:04:19.980 --> 00:04:23.180 man who understands extreme stress. Serious stuff. 00:04:23.379 --> 00:04:25.920 He's seen the worst humanity can do. Indeed. 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:28.639 And he said that living with Clarnell, his wife, 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:32.959 was worse than 396 days and nights of fighting 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:35.160 on the front and dealing with nuclear testing. 00:04:35.259 --> 00:04:38.620 That is, wow. He's comparing his wife to trench 00:04:38.620 --> 00:04:41.439 warfare and atomic bombs. That tells you everything 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:43.500 you need to know about that house. It gives you 00:04:43.500 --> 00:04:45.740 a sense of the emotional radiation in that household. 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.319 So when the parents finally divorced in 1961, 00:04:48.939 --> 00:04:52.040 Kemper went with his mother to Montana. And that 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:54.579 is where the pathology really begins to curdle. 00:04:54.740 --> 00:04:56.920 Carnell Strandberg remarried and changed her 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:59.079 name. She sounds like an absolute nightmare of 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:01.100 a guardian. I was reading about her discipline 00:05:01.100 --> 00:05:03.819 style, and it wasn't just strict. It seemed designed 00:05:03.819 --> 00:05:06.959 to dismantle him. It was systematic emasculation, 00:05:06.980 --> 00:05:09.699 demoralization. She was an alcoholic, she was 00:05:09.699 --> 00:05:12.079 neurotic, and she was incredibly domineering. 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:13.899 And she locked him in the basement at night? 00:05:14.100 --> 00:05:17.079 She locked him in the basement. Now, her justification, 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:19.620 the reason she gave, was that she was afraid 00:05:19.620 --> 00:05:22.000 he would hurt his sisters. Which, to be fair, 00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:25.860 knowing what we know now, maybe that was an intuitive 00:05:25.860 --> 00:05:28.279 fear, a mother's intuition that something was 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:30.779 wrong. It might have been. It's possible. But 00:05:30.779 --> 00:05:32.339 think about it from the child's perspective. 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.339 You're a young boy. You're sleeping in a locked 00:05:35.339 --> 00:05:37.680 basement in the dark, separated from the family. 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:41.420 That is imprisonment. It's not protection. It 00:05:41.420 --> 00:05:44.079 sends the message. You are a monster to be contained. 00:05:44.420 --> 00:05:46.759 And the abuse wasn't just physical separation. 00:05:46.980 --> 00:05:49.019 It was psychological, wasn't it? Specifically 00:05:49.019 --> 00:05:52.220 about his size and... And his sexuality. Oh, 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.439 absolutely. She refused to show him affection, 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:56.600 wouldn't hug him, wouldn't kiss him goodnight 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:58.720 because she was terrified she would turn him 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.319 gay. That was her stated fear. But at the same 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:03.399 time, she was mocking him for not getting girls. 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:05.920 Right. I saw notes where she called him big, 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:09.519 ugly and awkward. She told him no girl would 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:12.100 ever want him. Exactly. It's a classic double 00:06:12.100 --> 00:06:14.240 bind. It's psychological torture. She's telling 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:16.879 him no woman will ever love him while simultaneously 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:19.079 criticizing him for not bringing girls home. 00:06:19.339 --> 00:06:21.959 It's a damn if you do, damn if you don't scenario. 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:25.779 It breeds deep, festering resentment. So he just 00:06:25.779 --> 00:06:28.480 grows up with this idea that he is unlovable 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:31.220 and that women, represented by his mother, are 00:06:31.220 --> 00:06:34.000 the source of that pain. He viewed her as a sick, 00:06:34.060 --> 00:06:36.959 angry woman. But what fascinates me, what profilers 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:38.980 point to, is that he didn't just sit there and 00:06:38.980 --> 00:06:42.319 take it. He began to rehearse. He began to act 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:45.279 out his retaliation in symbolic ways. This is 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:46.879 where we start seeing those red flags, right? 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:49.660 The Dark Triad or the McDonald Triad. The McDonald 00:06:49.660 --> 00:06:52.519 Triad. The classic trifecta of warning signs 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:55.480 in children, bedwetting, fire starting, and cruelty 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.540 to animals. With Kemper, the animal cruelty is 00:06:58.540 --> 00:07:00.920 the neon sign. It's flashing. It's always the 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:03.259 animals first, isn't it? Almost always. It's 00:07:03.259 --> 00:07:05.420 about power. It's a safe way to exert the ultimate 00:07:05.420 --> 00:07:07.819 control over a living thing when you feel you 00:07:07.819 --> 00:07:09.639 have no control in your own life. And his cruelty 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:14.259 was specific. Ritualistic. Very. At age 10, he 00:07:14.259 --> 00:07:17.089 took the family cat and buried it alive. Okay. 00:07:17.250 --> 00:07:19.149 But he didn't stop there. That wasn't enough. 00:07:19.810 --> 00:07:22.449 He went back later, dug it up, and decapitated 00:07:22.449 --> 00:07:25.029 it. And then he put the head on a spike in the 00:07:25.029 --> 00:07:27.629 yard. On a spike? Like a trophy? Like a warning? 00:07:27.850 --> 00:07:30.930 Like a totem. A declaration. This is a 10 -year 00:07:30.930 --> 00:07:34.670 -old boy. Then at 13, he killed another cat with 00:07:34.670 --> 00:07:38.009 a knife. And his reasoning for that one is incredibly 00:07:38.009 --> 00:07:40.410 telling. What was it? He felt the cat preferred 00:07:40.410 --> 00:07:43.569 his sister over him. That's... that's profound 00:07:43.569 --> 00:07:46.819 jealousy. To project that level of intent and 00:07:46.819 --> 00:07:50.139 betrayal onto a house cat. It shows a deep pathological 00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:53.220 possessiveness and a complete inability to handle 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:56.160 rejection, even from a pet. If something doesn't 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.199 love him best, it must be destroyed. And the 00:07:58.199 --> 00:07:59.779 rehearsals, they weren't just with animals. He 00:07:59.779 --> 00:08:02.879 involved his sisters in these dark games. Yes. 00:08:03.420 --> 00:08:05.860 Decapitating their dolls, for one. Again, the 00:08:05.860 --> 00:08:07.560 focus on the head, on decapitation, it's there 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:09.339 from the very beginning. But the games were even 00:08:09.339 --> 00:08:12.199 more disturbing. He would play gas chamber. An 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:14.199 electric chair. How does a game like that even 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:16.199 work? What were the rules? He would have his 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:18.540 sister tie him to a chair and she would pretend 00:08:18.540 --> 00:08:21.060 to be the executioner. She'd flip an imaginary 00:08:21.060 --> 00:08:23.860 switch and he would writhe on the floor pretending 00:08:23.860 --> 00:08:27.639 to die. Convulsing. That is bone chilling. Most 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:30.240 kids play tag or hide and seek. He's role playing 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:32.340 his own execution. He is playing the victim, 00:08:32.419 --> 00:08:35.620 but he's controlling the scenario. He is fascinated 00:08:35.620 --> 00:08:38.700 by the mechanism of death. He's learning how 00:08:38.700 --> 00:08:41.720 it looks, how it feels, desensitizing himself 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:44.820 to the idea. These weren't just games. They were 00:08:44.820 --> 00:08:47.460 dress rehearsals for what was coming. And that 00:08:47.460 --> 00:08:49.960 dress rehearsal, the actual first act of violence 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:53.019 against humans, happens incredibly early. He's 00:08:53.019 --> 00:08:56.019 only 15 years old. 15. This is what we have in 00:08:56.019 --> 00:08:58.960 Section 2 of the outline. He's 14. He can't take 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:00.980 living with his mother anymore. He runs away 00:09:00.980 --> 00:09:03.220 to find his father in California. And gets rejected. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:06.200 His father has remarried, has a new family, and 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:08.659 basically says, I can't handle you. You're your 00:09:08.659 --> 00:09:10.340 mother's problem. Which must have been another 00:09:10.340 --> 00:09:12.600 massive blow. The one parent he thought might 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:16.379 be a refuge turns him away. Crushing. So he's 00:09:16.379 --> 00:09:18.500 sent to live with his paternal grandparents in 00:09:18.500 --> 00:09:21.559 North Fork, California, a seemingly quiet rural 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:24.480 place. And this is a critical error in placement, 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:26.700 isn't it? He runs from a domineering maternal 00:09:26.700 --> 00:09:30.259 figure, his mother, and is placed with... His 00:09:30.259 --> 00:09:34.029 grandmother, Maude Kemper. who, in Kemper's mind, 00:09:34.190 --> 00:09:36.809 was a carbon copy of his mother. Basically the 00:09:36.809 --> 00:09:38.649 same person, from what I gather, the same kind 00:09:38.649 --> 00:09:40.690 of personality. He certainly perceived her that 00:09:40.690 --> 00:09:44.129 way. He saw her as exactly the same type of emasculating 00:09:44.129 --> 00:09:47.210 figure. He hated her. He felt she was constantly 00:09:47.210 --> 00:09:50.169 nagging him, constantly belittling him, just 00:09:50.169 --> 00:09:53.639 like Clarnell. The pattern was repeating. So 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:58.100 on August 27, 1964, the tension snaps. He's 15. 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:00.360 He has an argument with his grandmother in the 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:02.460 kitchen. Walk us through what happens. He's sitting 00:10:02.460 --> 00:10:05.460 there fuming. The rage that has been building 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:07.720 for years against his mother is now directed 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:10.639 at this surrogate. He has a .22 rifle his grandfather 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:12.480 had given him. Oh, wow. He goes and gets it. 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:15.110 He shoots her. Once in the head, then twice in 00:10:15.110 --> 00:10:16.649 the back as she fell. Okay, but it didn't end 00:10:16.649 --> 00:10:18.549 there. The reports say he also used a knife. 00:10:18.750 --> 00:10:21.230 He did. After shooting her, he grabs a kitchen 00:10:21.230 --> 00:10:23.350 knife and stabs her repeatedly in the back. That 00:10:23.350 --> 00:10:25.409 sounds like overkill. That's a term profilers 00:10:25.409 --> 00:10:28.649 use, right? It is exactly that. Overkill usually 00:10:28.649 --> 00:10:31.570 indicates a rage -motivated crime, a personal 00:10:31.570 --> 00:10:34.769 crime where the violence is far in excess of 00:10:34.769 --> 00:10:37.210 what's needed to cause death. He wasn't just 00:10:37.210 --> 00:10:39.990 killing her. He was obliterating the source of 00:10:39.990 --> 00:10:43.039 his annoyance, of his humiliation. But what happens 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:46.379 next is what truly reveals the twist in Kemper's 00:10:46.379 --> 00:10:49.600 logic. It's the moment the cold, rational killer 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:52.799 emerges from the hot -blooded, angry teenager. 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:55.100 His grandfather wasn't home when this happened. 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:57.919 Right. His grandfather, Edmund Sr., was out grocery 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:00.620 shopping. So Kemper drags his grandmother's body 00:11:00.620 --> 00:11:03.379 into a room, cleans up the blood, and he sits 00:11:03.379 --> 00:11:06.320 there. And he waits. He waits. He doesn't run. 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:09.080 He waits. And when his grandfather's car pulls 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:11.299 into the driveway, Kemper goes out to meet him 00:11:11.299 --> 00:11:13.700 with a rifle. He shoots him, too, as he's getting 00:11:13.700 --> 00:11:16.159 out of the car. Why? I mean, if the rage was 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:17.879 at the grandmother, why kill the grandfather? 00:11:18.220 --> 00:11:19.799 He seemed to have a decent relationship with 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:21.779 him. His reasoning is one of the most disturbing 00:11:21.779 --> 00:11:24.100 things in the files. He said he did it so his 00:11:24.100 --> 00:11:25.799 grandfather wouldn't have to find out his wife 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:28.419 was dead. He framed it as an act of mercy. A 00:11:28.419 --> 00:11:31.259 twisted, detached, psychopathic form of mercy. 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:35.159 He loved her, so I had to kill him so he wouldn't 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:37.799 be sad. The logic is completely self -serving, 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:40.539 but in his mind, perfectly sound. So you had 00:11:40.539 --> 00:11:42.639 this hot rage with the grandmother and then this 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:45.379 cold, calculated mercy killing of the grandfather. 00:11:45.779 --> 00:11:48.779 Exactly. But then when the police asked him about 00:11:48.779 --> 00:11:51.500 the grandmother, why he did it, he gave that 00:11:51.500 --> 00:11:54.539 famous chilling quote. I just wanted to see what 00:11:54.539 --> 00:11:57.070 it felt like to kill grandma. So you have mercy 00:11:57.070 --> 00:11:59.570 on one hand and cold curiosity on the other. 00:11:59.690 --> 00:12:01.470 It's like he's trying on different justifications. 00:12:01.789 --> 00:12:04.009 He confesses immediately, though. He calls his 00:12:04.009 --> 00:12:06.549 mother first, tells her what he did. What was 00:12:06.549 --> 00:12:08.889 her reaction? According to him, she just said, 00:12:08.950 --> 00:12:11.190 oh, for heaven's sake, as if he'd spilled milk. 00:12:11.429 --> 00:12:13.710 Then he called the police and calmly waited for 00:12:13.710 --> 00:12:16.769 them to arrive. He's 15 years old and he's committed 00:12:16.769 --> 00:12:19.850 a double homicide. So he gets sent to Atascadero 00:12:19.850 --> 00:12:22.450 State Hospital, a maximum security psychiatric 00:12:22.450 --> 00:12:25.769 facility. Right. And initially, the doctors diagnose 00:12:25.769 --> 00:12:28.389 him with paranoid schizophrenia. They look at 00:12:28.389 --> 00:12:30.690 the crime and think, OK, a kid kills his grandparents, 00:12:30.970 --> 00:12:33.970 stabs the body. Yeah. He must be detached from 00:12:33.970 --> 00:12:36.470 reality. He must be psychotic. But that diagnosis 00:12:36.470 --> 00:12:39.230 didn't stick, did it? No. And this is where the 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:42.570 systemic failure begins. A Tascadero didn't cure 00:12:42.570 --> 00:12:45.759 him. A task gear became his university. It's 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:47.539 where he learned to perfect his mask. How so? 00:12:48.019 --> 00:12:50.159 The staff eventually observed that he had no 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:52.740 delusions. He wasn't hearing voices. He was, 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:55.960 in fact, hyper intelligent and incredibly introspective. 00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:58.360 He could talk about his feelings and his childhood 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:02.019 with amazing clarity. So they changed the diagnosis. 00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:04.740 They re -diagnosed him with a personality trait 00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:07.139 disturbance, passive aggressive type. Passive 00:13:07.139 --> 00:13:08.960 -aggressive type sounds like a bad roommate, 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:11.460 not a double murderer. It sounds so much less 00:13:11.460 --> 00:13:13.940 dangerous. Sounds manageable. Sounds curable. 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:17.159 And Kemper, being a genius, realized exactly 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:19.440 how the system worked. He figured out the game. 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:22.019 He became the model prisoner. What did that entail? 00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:24.840 What did he do? He was so trusted, so articulate, 00:13:25.019 --> 00:13:28.179 that the doctors actually trained him to administer 00:13:28.179 --> 00:13:31.480 psychiatric tests to other prisoners. The thematic 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:34.440 at perception test. The Rorschach inkblots. Wait, 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:36.879 I need to wrap my head around this. The inmates 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:39.799 are running the asylum, literally. He is giving 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:42.440 the tests that are designed to catch people like 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:45.019 him to other potential psychopaths? It sounds 00:13:45.019 --> 00:13:47.399 unbelievable, but yes. He's sitting across from 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:49.740 other inmates, showing them inkblots and taking 00:13:49.740 --> 00:13:52.080 notes on their answers for the doctors. So he's 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:54.740 learning the system from the inside out. He later 00:13:54.740 --> 00:13:56.620 admitted it. He said he learned the specific 00:13:56.620 --> 00:13:59.000 responses the doctors wanted to hear. He analyzed 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.740 the test questions. He learned what answers triggered 00:14:01.740 --> 00:14:04.399 a red flag and what answers signaled rehabilitation. 00:14:05.500 --> 00:14:08.059 So when it was his turn to be evaluated, he simply 00:14:08.059 --> 00:14:09.840 gave them the answers they taught him to look 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:12.980 for. He aced the test. He hacked the test. He 00:14:12.980 --> 00:14:15.759 gamed the entire institution. He absolutely did. 00:14:15.899 --> 00:14:18.100 He played the part of the cured, remorseful young 00:14:18.100 --> 00:14:20.779 man so perfectly that he convinced them. And 00:14:20.779 --> 00:14:23.539 it worked. He was released on his 21st birthday. 00:14:23.870 --> 00:14:27.110 In December of 1969. And the doctors? Did they 00:14:27.110 --> 00:14:29.509 have reservations? They did. The file is clear 00:14:29.509 --> 00:14:32.269 on this. The psychiatrist advised against sending 00:14:32.269 --> 00:14:34.629 him back to live with his mother. They knew that 00:14:34.629 --> 00:14:37.029 was the source of the initial pathology. They 00:14:37.029 --> 00:14:39.210 warned that it was a volatile situation. But 00:14:39.210 --> 00:14:41.590 the legal system overruled them. Well, he was 00:14:41.590 --> 00:14:44.009 an adult. He'd served his time in the juvenile 00:14:44.009 --> 00:14:46.289 system. His juvenile records were eventually 00:14:46.289 --> 00:14:50.230 sealed, then expunged. Legally, it was like it 00:14:50.230 --> 00:14:52.570 never happened. And he had nowhere else to go. 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:56.220 So the court approved his release into his mother's 00:14:56.220 --> 00:14:58.240 care. So he goes right back to the lion's den, 00:14:58.379 --> 00:15:01.039 back to Clarnell. It is the classic Greek tragedy. 00:15:01.179 --> 00:15:03.500 He returns to the very source of his trauma. 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:06.480 But the dynamic has changed. When he left, he 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.039 was a 15 -year -old boy. He returns as a 21 -year 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:12.879 -old man who is 6 '9", nearly 300 pounds, and 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:14.879 he has killed before. He knows he can do it. 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:18.659 So we move into the 1970s, Section 3, the co 00:15:18.659 --> 00:15:21.409 -ed murders. He's living in Aptos near Santa 00:15:21.409 --> 00:15:24.450 Cruz with Clarnell. Is the relationship just 00:15:24.450 --> 00:15:27.009 as bad as ever? Vicious verbal battles is how 00:15:27.009 --> 00:15:29.250 he described it. Constant fighting. She belittled 00:15:29.250 --> 00:15:31.509 him. He resented her. Nothing had changed except 00:15:31.509 --> 00:15:34.029 now he was bigger and the rage was simmering. 00:15:34.070 --> 00:15:36.250 But now he has resources he didn't have before. 00:15:36.490 --> 00:15:38.929 Exactly. He got a job at the Division of Highways. 00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:42.480 This is a crucial detail. It meant he knew the 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:44.480 roads around Santa Cruz County like the back 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.179 of his hand. He knew the scenic turnouts, the 00:15:47.179 --> 00:15:50.240 isolated wooded areas, the blind spots. He knew 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:52.200 where the police patrolled and where they didn't. 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:54.659 He had a map of the hunting ground in his head. 00:15:55.139 --> 00:15:58.220 Precisely. And he had money, too. The notes say 00:15:58.220 --> 00:16:00.620 he got a $15 ,000 settlement from a motorcycle 00:16:00.620 --> 00:16:03.779 accident. In the early 1970s, that's a huge amount 00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:06.000 of cash. That's life -changing money back then. 00:16:06.139 --> 00:16:08.539 It gave him independence and mobility. He buys 00:16:08.539 --> 00:16:12.220 a car. A big Ford Galaxy. He buys guns. He buys 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:14.519 cameras and recording equipment. And he starts 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:16.899 experiencing what he called the zapples. The 00:16:16.899 --> 00:16:19.419 zapples. That's such a strange, almost cartoonish 00:16:19.419 --> 00:16:21.299 word for something so dark. What did he mean 00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:24.620 by that? It was his term for the visceral homicidal 00:16:24.620 --> 00:16:27.320 urges. The pressure building up inside him that 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:29.559 he needed to release. But notice the discipline 00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:32.159 here. The control. He didn't just explode and 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.669 start killing immediately. He practiced. This 00:16:34.669 --> 00:16:36.850 is the part of the file that I found unbelievable. 00:16:37.169 --> 00:16:40.730 He picked up approximately 150 hitchhikers. 150. 00:16:41.309 --> 00:16:45.149 And let them go. 150 women who sat in a car with 00:16:45.149 --> 00:16:47.549 a serial killer and had no idea how close they 00:16:47.549 --> 00:16:50.889 came to dying. What was he doing? He was desensitizing 00:16:50.889 --> 00:16:53.669 himself. He was testing his ability to control 00:16:53.669 --> 00:16:56.870 the situation. He was refining his persona, his 00:16:56.870 --> 00:17:00.129 camouflage. He realized that if he wore glasses, 00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:02.629 dressed reasonably well, and kept his car clean, 00:17:02.850 --> 00:17:06.170 these young women, mostly college students, didn't 00:17:06.170 --> 00:17:09.450 see a monster. They saw a big, safe teddy bear. 00:17:09.670 --> 00:17:12.950 He was A .B. testing his approach. He was. And 00:17:12.950 --> 00:17:15.109 every time he let one go, he was proving to himself 00:17:15.109 --> 00:17:17.930 that he was the one in control. He held their 00:17:17.930 --> 00:17:19.809 life in his hands and chose to grant it back. 00:17:19.910 --> 00:17:21.809 He was a power trip. He was getting off on the 00:17:21.809 --> 00:17:23.829 control itself before the violence even started. 00:17:24.109 --> 00:17:28.680 And then the switch flips. May 1972. The practice 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:31.359 runs are over. Mary Ann Page and Anita Lucasa. 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.680 Two students from Fresno State hitchhiking near 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:36.900 the Berkeley campus. This is the beginning of 00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:39.299 his organized methodology. He picks them up. 00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:41.059 What's his story? What does he tell them? He's 00:17:41.059 --> 00:17:43.380 friendly. He's charming. He tells them he's going 00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:45.900 their way. He drives them to a remote wooded 00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:47.980 area that he knows from his highway job. And 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:50.160 this is where the organized label really applies, 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:52.599 right? He didn't just attack them in a frenzy 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:56.380 in the car. No. Total control. He had a kill 00:17:56.380 --> 00:17:59.460 kit in the trunk, weapons, restraints. He had 00:17:59.460 --> 00:18:02.119 a plan. He separated them. He controlled the 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:05.220 scene from start to finish. But it's what happens 00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:08.339 after that defines Kemper. He brings the bodies 00:18:08.339 --> 00:18:10.859 back to his apartment. To his apartment, where 00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:13.039 he lived with his mother. At this point, I believe 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:14.940 he had a roommate in a separate apartment, but 00:18:14.940 --> 00:18:17.119 he would later take victims back to his mother's 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:20.839 place when she was out. Still, the risk is astronomical. 00:18:21.019 --> 00:18:23.859 It seems incredibly risky for someone so organized. 00:18:24.019 --> 00:18:27.039 It is. but is the arrogance and the risk -taking 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:30.039 behavior of a psychopath who feels superior to 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:32.660 everyone else. The roommate was out but could 00:18:32.660 --> 00:18:35.319 have returned at any moment. Kimber didn't care. 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:37.500 And what does he do there? He dismembers them 00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:40.640 in the bathtub, he engages in necrophilia, and 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:42.240 then he disposes of the remains in different 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.619 locations. But he keeps the heads for a time. 00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:47.339 Why keep the heads? What is the psychological 00:18:47.339 --> 00:18:49.759 significance of that? For an organized offender, 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.859 the act of murder is just the beginning. The 00:18:52.859 --> 00:18:55.640 possession is the goal. Keeping a part of the 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:58.279 victim, especially the head, the seat of their 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:01.519 identity, allows him to relive the fantasy, to 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.420 own the victim completely, even after they are 00:19:04.420 --> 00:19:07.240 gone. It's the ultimate trophy. The details of 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.700 these crimes are horrific, and we won't go through 00:19:09.700 --> 00:19:12.000 every single one in graphic detail, but I want 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.000 to talk about Aikoku. She was a 15 -year -old 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.119 dance student. There is a specific detail about 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.619 the car door that haunts me. It is a moment of 00:19:21.619 --> 00:19:25.180 pure... tragic irony he had her in the car and 00:19:25.180 --> 00:19:27.079 he stepped out for a second and accidentally 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:29.140 locked himself out while she was still inside 00:19:29.140 --> 00:19:31.859 so in that moment she was safe completely she 00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:33.539 could have walked the door she could have laid 00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:35.140 on the horn she could have tried to start the 00:19:35.140 --> 00:19:37.900 car anything but she didn't know who he was she 00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:40.779 didn't see a threat no she saw the friendly giant 00:19:40.779 --> 00:19:43.500 looking flustered so she reached over and unlocked 00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:45.880 the door to let him back in she let her killer 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.279 back into the car that's just it speaks to how 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:50.740 disarming he was He later told a story about 00:19:50.740 --> 00:19:54.099 driving around with her body in the trunk. He 00:19:54.099 --> 00:19:56.759 parked outside the jury room, the cop bar, went 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.079 inside for a drink, and said he was admiring 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:01.640 his catch in the trunk. He was taunting them 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:04.200 without them even knowing. And then Cindy Schall. 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.380 This one. This one has a detail that I think 00:20:07.380 --> 00:20:09.160 is the most revealing about his relationship 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:11.599 with his mother. It's the key that unlocks his 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:15.720 entire motivation. He killed Cindy Schall, a 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:18.299 Cabrillo College student. He dismembered her. 00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:22.029 And he buried her head in his mother's garden. 00:20:22.170 --> 00:20:24.349 But not just anywhere in the garden. He buried 00:20:24.349 --> 00:20:27.250 it. Facing the mother's bedroom window. And he 00:20:27.250 --> 00:20:29.849 angled it slightly upwards. Why? That seems so 00:20:29.849 --> 00:20:32.630 specific, so symbolic. He told the investigators 00:20:32.630 --> 00:20:35.529 his exact reasoning. He said it was because Clarnell 00:20:35.529 --> 00:20:38.529 always wanted people to look up to her. Oh, God. 00:20:39.210 --> 00:20:41.490 Even in his most depraved acts, everything circled 00:20:41.490 --> 00:20:43.269 back to Clarnell. He was using these victims 00:20:43.269 --> 00:20:45.130 as stand -ins. He was conducting a psychological 00:20:45.130 --> 00:20:47.650 war against his mother, and these young women 00:20:47.650 --> 00:20:50.329 were the casualties. Can you explain that concept 00:20:50.329 --> 00:20:52.890 of the surrogate victim a bit more? A surrogate 00:20:52.890 --> 00:20:56.190 is a substitute. Kemper felt rejected and emasculated 00:20:56.190 --> 00:20:59.430 by his mother, who he viewed as this upper -class, 00:20:59.609 --> 00:21:02.769 educated, powerful woman, an authority figure. 00:21:03.230 --> 00:21:05.930 He couldn't kill her, not yet. The psychological 00:21:05.930 --> 00:21:08.329 barrier, the societal taboo, it was too high. 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:11.299 So he hunted women who were like her. Women who 00:21:11.299 --> 00:21:14.279 reminded him of what she valued. Young, intelligent, 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:17.200 beautiful college students. By destroying them, 00:21:17.259 --> 00:21:19.460 he was symbolically destroying pieces of her. 00:21:19.579 --> 00:21:22.720 He was, as he put it, perfecting his skills for 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.140 the final target. He even used her as a tool 00:21:25.140 --> 00:21:27.299 in his murders. He used a university parking 00:21:27.299 --> 00:21:29.640 sticker from his mother's job at UCSC to get 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:32.079 access to the campus for his later victims, Rosalind 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.440 Thorpe and Alice Liu. Exactly. The symbolism 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:36.970 is just layered. He was using his mother's status 00:21:36.970 --> 00:21:39.109 to hunt the surrogates of his mother. It's a 00:21:39.109 --> 00:21:41.430 closed loop of psychological warfare. He's driving 00:21:41.430 --> 00:21:43.569 onto campus, waving at the guard who recognizes 00:21:43.569 --> 00:21:46.069 the sticker, using Clarnell's credibility to 00:21:46.069 --> 00:21:48.410 find the victims that will satisfy his rage against 00:21:48.410 --> 00:21:50.829 Clarnell. Which leads us to the inevitable conclusion. 00:21:51.049 --> 00:21:53.769 The whole spree was just a prelude. Section 4. 00:21:53.910 --> 00:21:57.470 The Endgame. Matricide. The climax of his life's 00:21:57.470 --> 00:22:01.190 work. April 20, 1973. He picks the date carefully. 00:22:01.470 --> 00:22:03.509 It was a good Friday weekend. The campus was 00:22:03.509 --> 00:22:06.529 quiet. His mother's workplace was closed. He 00:22:06.529 --> 00:22:08.809 knew he would have time. The house would be quiet. 00:22:09.009 --> 00:22:11.470 Walk me through that night. Clarnell comes home 00:22:11.470 --> 00:22:14.369 from a party, a bit drunk. She and Kepper have 00:22:14.369 --> 00:22:16.509 another argument. It's vicious, like always. 00:22:16.730 --> 00:22:18.950 She goes to bed angry. And then he waits. He 00:22:18.950 --> 00:22:21.289 waits for her to fall asleep. And then he goes 00:22:21.289 --> 00:22:25.549 into her room. And he unleashes 15, 20 years 00:22:25.549 --> 00:22:28.789 of repressed rage. He used a claw hammer first. 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:31.920 Then a penknife to slit her throat. And then 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.819 the desecration. The desecration is where you 00:22:34.819 --> 00:22:38.779 see the pure, symbolic hatred. He decapitates 00:22:38.779 --> 00:22:40.640 her. He takes the head into the living room and 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:43.599 performs rituals. He screamed at it for an hour, 00:22:43.700 --> 00:22:46.400 venting all his frustrations. He used it as a 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:48.460 dartboard. And the garbage disposal incident? 00:22:48.579 --> 00:22:50.359 I read that and had to put the notes down for 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:52.839 a second. It is deeply, deeply symbolic. He took 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:55.559 her larynx, her voice box, and tried to force 00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:57.599 it down the garbage disposal. He wanted to silence 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:02.799 her. Literally and figuratively. He wanted to 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:04.880 destroy the very organ that had belittled him 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:07.259 and screamed at him his entire life. But the 00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:10.119 disposal wouldn't grind it up. It jammed. And 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:12.980 Kemper, with his chilling logic, noted that it 00:23:12.980 --> 00:23:16.539 was appropriate because she had bitched and screamed 00:23:16.539 --> 00:23:19.200 at him for so long that even a machine couldn't 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.960 handle her. After all that rage, he becomes cold 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:24.799 and calculating again. He murders her friend 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:27.269 Sally Hallett that same night. But that seemed 00:23:27.269 --> 00:23:29.490 almost distinct from the mattress side. It was 00:23:29.490 --> 00:23:31.190 purely functional. It was a business transaction. 00:23:31.589 --> 00:23:33.549 He knew people would wonder where Clarnell was. 00:23:34.049 --> 00:23:35.789 So he called Sally Hallett, who was an older 00:23:35.789 --> 00:23:38.029 friend of hers, invited her over for dinner to 00:23:38.029 --> 00:23:40.430 establish a cover story that he and his mother 00:23:40.430 --> 00:23:43.109 were going on a surprise trip. And when she arrived? 00:23:43.150 --> 00:23:44.990 He strangled her as soon as she walked in the 00:23:44.990 --> 00:23:48.329 door. It was cold, calculated, and done purely 00:23:48.329 --> 00:23:50.730 to buy himself time. There was no passion there, 00:23:50.750 --> 00:23:53.589 just utility. And then he flees. He gets in his 00:23:53.589 --> 00:23:56.170 car and drives all the way to Pueblo, Colorado. 00:23:56.470 --> 00:23:58.950 He's got guns. He's got ammo. He thinks there's 00:23:58.950 --> 00:24:01.690 going to be a massive nationwide manhunt. He's 00:24:01.690 --> 00:24:03.789 listening to the radio constantly, waiting to 00:24:03.789 --> 00:24:07.150 hear the co -ed killer identified as Ed Kemper. 00:24:07.210 --> 00:24:10.910 And he hears nothing. Crickets. Days go by. Nobody 00:24:10.910 --> 00:24:13.410 knows. He's just another guy in a motel room. 00:24:13.470 --> 00:24:15.329 And what does that do to him? The realization 00:24:15.329 --> 00:24:18.589 hits him. The pressure valve has been released. 00:24:19.150 --> 00:24:23.359 With his mother dead. The urge to kill those 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.259 Zappos, it just vanished. The mission was complete. 00:24:26.339 --> 00:24:28.759 The driving force of his entire life was gone. 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:32.920 So he calls the police from a payphone in Pueblo. 00:24:33.019 --> 00:24:34.900 And this is the part that feels like a dark comedy 00:24:34.900 --> 00:24:37.319 sketch. They don't believe him. It goes back 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:39.759 to that friendly giant paradox. He calls the 00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:42.099 Santa Cruz Police Department and that a dispatcher 00:24:42.099 --> 00:24:44.759 who picks up knows him. Knows him as Big Ed from 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.609 the jury room bar. The cop buff. Right. So when 00:24:47.609 --> 00:24:49.809 he says, I killed my mother and her friend and 00:24:49.809 --> 00:24:52.069 I'm the co -ed killer you're looking for, they 00:24:52.069 --> 00:24:53.650 literally laughed at him. They thought he was 00:24:53.650 --> 00:24:55.450 drunk or pulling a prank. So what did he do? 00:24:55.670 --> 00:24:57.910 He had to keep calling. He had to convince them. 00:24:57.950 --> 00:25:00.089 He had to provide specific details about the 00:25:00.089 --> 00:25:02.529 crime scenes, about the victims, details that 00:25:02.529 --> 00:25:05.390 only the killer would know just to get them to 00:25:05.390 --> 00:25:07.890 take him seriously. He practically had to talk 00:25:07.890 --> 00:25:09.569 them into arresting him. When they asked him 00:25:09.569 --> 00:25:11.670 why he surrendered, he said the purpose was gone. 00:25:11.789 --> 00:25:13.990 His exact words were, it was just a pure waste 00:25:13.990 --> 00:25:16.799 of time after that. That level of detachment 00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:20.099 is chilling. It separates him from the compulsion 00:25:20.099 --> 00:25:23.119 -driven killers who can't stop. Most serial killers 00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.380 hunt until they are caught or they die. Kemper 00:25:26.380 --> 00:25:28.559 stopped because the source of his pathology, 00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:32.740 Clarnell, was gone. He had won his war. Now this 00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:35.140 is where the story shifts. It goes from a crime 00:25:35.140 --> 00:25:38.119 drama to a scientific breakthrough. Section 5. 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:41.079 the Mindhunter connection. This is his second 00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:44.039 and perhaps more lasting legacy. Kemper is in 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:46.619 custody. He's intelligent, he's articulate, and 00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:48.599 he loves to talk. He's proud of what he did. 00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:51.099 Enter John Douglas and Robert Ressler of the 00:25:51.099 --> 00:25:53.940 FBI's new Behavioral Science Unit. We have to 00:25:53.940 --> 00:25:57.640 set the stage here. In the early 70s, the BSU 00:25:57.640 --> 00:25:59.759 was in its infancy. They were trying to build 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:03.099 a new science to understand the why and how. 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:05.819 of serial murder from the murderers themselves. 00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:08.099 And they were interviewing anyone they could 00:26:08.099 --> 00:26:10.160 get access to. Right. They interviewed Charles 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:13.319 Manson, Richard Speck, but most were difficult. 00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:16.720 They were crazy or they were liars. Manson would 00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:20.119 speak in riddles. Speck was withdrawn and surly. 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.940 They weren't getting good data. But Kemper. Kemper 00:26:22.940 --> 00:26:25.079 was a goldmine. He wasn't just a subject. He 00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:27.779 was a collaborator. He was the professor of murder. 00:26:28.220 --> 00:26:31.160 He basically defined the organized killer typology 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:33.519 for them, didn't he? He laid it out on a platter. 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:36.519 He explained how he hunted, how he chose victims, 00:26:36.700 --> 00:26:39.119 how he listened to police scanners. He explained 00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:41.200 how he controlled the scene, brought a kill kit, 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:43.759 cleaned up after himself. He was socially competent. 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:45.960 He explained how he could talk his way out of 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:48.000 a traffic stop with a body in the trunk because 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.460 he knew how to act like a polite, deferential 00:26:50.460 --> 00:26:53.700 citizen. So he gave them the blueprint for catching 00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:56.140 people like him in the future. He gave them the 00:26:56.140 --> 00:26:58.680 psychological architecture. He described his 00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:00.960 crimes with what Douglas called clinical precision. 00:27:01.779 --> 00:27:04.539 He helped them understand that for killers like 00:27:04.539 --> 00:27:07.380 him, these crimes aren't always about sex in 00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:10.099 the traditional sense. They are about power, 00:27:10.180 --> 00:27:14.099 control, and manipulation. He explained the fantasy 00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:17.319 life that precedes the crime, how it builds and 00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:20.150 builds until it has to be acted out. And there 00:27:20.150 --> 00:27:22.210 is that famous story of the head snap incident. 00:27:22.309 --> 00:27:24.369 I think this really captures the danger of dealing 00:27:24.369 --> 00:27:26.250 with someone like Kemper, no matter how polite 00:27:26.250 --> 00:27:29.890 he seems. This is legendary in the BSU. Agent 00:27:29.890 --> 00:27:32.670 Robert Ressler was interviewing Kemper, and for 00:27:32.670 --> 00:27:34.990 some reason he was alone with him in a small 00:27:34.990 --> 00:27:38.150 interview room. The guard had stepped out. Just 00:27:38.150 --> 00:27:40.029 the two of them. Kemper's not in restraints. 00:27:40.210 --> 00:27:43.390 Not in that room, no. And Kemper, who is 6 '9", 00:27:43.390 --> 00:27:45.730 looks at the much smaller Ressler, looks at the 00:27:45.730 --> 00:27:48.869 door, and says, very calmly, The guard isn't 00:27:48.869 --> 00:27:51.150 coming back for about 30 minutes. My blood just 00:27:51.150 --> 00:27:54.009 ran cold. You know, if I went crazy in here, 00:27:54.109 --> 00:27:55.549 you'd be in a lot of trouble, wouldn't you? I 00:27:55.549 --> 00:27:56.990 could snap your head off and leave it on the 00:27:56.990 --> 00:27:59.130 table for them to find. And he follows it up 00:27:59.130 --> 00:28:00.910 with something like, I'd own the prison then, 00:28:01.049 --> 00:28:03.190 right? They'd have to kill me, but I'd own this 00:28:03.190 --> 00:28:06.950 place. It was a pure power play. A reminder that 00:28:06.950 --> 00:28:09.289 no matter how articulate he was, the monster 00:28:09.289 --> 00:28:11.710 was right there, just under the surface. Can 00:28:11.710 --> 00:28:13.789 you imagine? Ryslin must have been terrified. 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:16.559 Ressler tried to play it cool. He tried to de 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:19.559 -escalate, but he knew it was true. Kemper later 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:21.859 claimed he was just joking to make a point about 00:28:21.859 --> 00:28:25.299 lax security. But that incident changed FBI protocol 00:28:25.299 --> 00:28:28.859 forever. After that, agents were never, ever 00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:31.000 allowed to interview subjects like this alone. 00:28:31.660 --> 00:28:34.680 It established the buddy system for all future 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:37.259 interviews. He literally rewrote the rules for 00:28:37.259 --> 00:28:40.180 the FBI. Let's move to Section 6, life behind 00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:43.259 bars and his strange pop culture legacy. He goes 00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:46.539 to trial in November 1973. And in another display 00:28:46.539 --> 00:28:49.519 of his weird, twisted logic, he actually requested 00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:52.299 death by torture. He wanted the jury to sentence 00:28:52.299 --> 00:28:54.980 him to be tortured to death. He did. He told 00:28:54.980 --> 00:28:56.859 them he felt he deserved it. He was probably 00:28:56.859 --> 00:28:58.599 the only person in the room who wanted the death 00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:02.089 penalty. But it was suspended in California at 00:29:02.089 --> 00:29:04.670 the time. So he got seven concurrent life sentences. 00:29:04.950 --> 00:29:06.869 He was sent to the California medical facility 00:29:06.869 --> 00:29:09.269 in Vacaville. And he wasn't alone there. He was 00:29:09.269 --> 00:29:12.349 in a unit with some other infamous names, Charles 00:29:12.349 --> 00:29:15.130 Manson, Herbert Mullen. Right. And Mullen was 00:29:15.130 --> 00:29:17.289 another serial killer operating in Santa Cruz 00:29:17.289 --> 00:29:20.150 at the exact same time as Kemper, which is just 00:29:20.150 --> 00:29:22.730 an insane coincidence. But Mullen was the polar 00:29:22.730 --> 00:29:25.210 opposite of Kemper, wasn't he? If Kemper was 00:29:25.210 --> 00:29:27.910 the prototype for the organized killer, Mullen 00:29:27.910 --> 00:29:30.589 was the textbook disorganized. his killer. He 00:29:30.589 --> 00:29:33.109 was a paranoid schizophrenic. He heard voices 00:29:33.109 --> 00:29:35.150 telling him to kill people to prevent earthquakes 00:29:35.150 --> 00:29:38.390 in California. His crimes were random, frenzied, 00:29:38.390 --> 00:29:41.650 and left a mess. And in prison, Mullen had a 00:29:41.650 --> 00:29:44.049 habit of singing loudly and bothering people, 00:29:44.150 --> 00:29:47.150 and Kemper, the giant, decided to train him. 00:29:47.250 --> 00:29:50.089 He couldn't stand the chaos, so he used behavior 00:29:50.089 --> 00:29:52.609 modification on Mullen, like training a dog. 00:29:52.829 --> 00:29:55.849 When Mullen was quiet and behaved, Kemper would 00:29:55.849 --> 00:29:59.140 reward him with peanuts. Peanuts. And when he 00:29:59.140 --> 00:30:01.559 sang or acted out, Kemper would throw a cup of 00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:04.299 water on him. And apparently it worked. Mullen 00:30:04.299 --> 00:30:06.779 quieted down. It's dark, but it's fascinating. 00:30:07.059 --> 00:30:09.640 He's applying Pavlovian conditioning to another 00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:12.940 serial killer to maintain order. It just shows 00:30:12.940 --> 00:30:15.980 Kemper's absolute need for dominance. He viewed 00:30:15.980 --> 00:30:19.160 Mullen as inferior, as a pest. Even in prison, 00:30:19.299 --> 00:30:20.900 Kemper needed to be the one in control of his 00:30:20.900 --> 00:30:23.279 environment. But the thing Kemper is most famous 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:26.599 for in prison, other than the murders... is his 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:29.920 voice. The Volunteers of Vacaville, the audiobook 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:33.420 program for the blind. Kemper spent over 5 ,000 00:30:33.420 --> 00:30:35.720 hours in the recording booth. He had this deep, 00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:38.420 calm, articulate voice. He narrated hundreds 00:30:38.420 --> 00:30:40.799 of books. Including Flowers in the Attic, The 00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.920 Glass Key, and unbelievably, Star Wars. Can you 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:46.099 imagine listening to the story of Luke Skywalker 00:30:46.099 --> 00:30:48.680 and Darth Vader and the voice telling you that 00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:51.079 story belongs to a man who decapitated his own 00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:53.799 mother? It is deeply, profoundly ironic. This 00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:55.859 voice, which was the last thing his victims heard, 00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:58.579 likely reassuring them, tricking them, became 00:30:58.579 --> 00:31:00.880 a comfort to thousands of blind people who had 00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.420 no idea who was reading to them. It speaks to 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:06.420 his compartmentalization. He could shut off the 00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:09.200 monster side and just be the articulate, helpful 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:11.559 narrator. He took great pride in it. He even 00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:13.299 ran the program for a while. It's another role 00:31:13.299 --> 00:31:16.119 he could play perfectly, the helpful giant. So 00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:18.380 where is he now? We are recording this deep dive 00:31:18.380 --> 00:31:22.589 in early 2026. What's his current status? Kemper 00:31:22.589 --> 00:31:24.589 is still at the California Medical Facility, 00:31:24.650 --> 00:31:28.450 but he is a shadow of his former self. In 2015, 00:31:28.670 --> 00:31:30.910 he suffered a major stroke that left him partially 00:31:30.910 --> 00:31:33.549 disabled. He's in a wheelchair now. He's in his 00:31:33.549 --> 00:31:36.150 late 70s. And there was a parole hearing recently, 00:31:36.329 --> 00:31:39.930 right, in 2024? Yes, in July 2024. Kemper is 00:31:39.930 --> 00:31:42.170 eligible for parole periodically, but he didn't 00:31:42.170 --> 00:31:44.549 even attend the hearing. He's frail, dealing 00:31:44.549 --> 00:31:47.369 with heart disease, diabetes. He was denied parole, 00:31:47.509 --> 00:31:50.410 obviously. But interestingly, despite his frailty, 00:31:50.609 --> 00:31:52.789 the board still considered him a high risk for 00:31:52.789 --> 00:31:55.349 future violence. Why? I mean, if he's in a wheelchair 00:31:55.349 --> 00:31:57.950 and can barely move, what's the risk? Because 00:31:57.950 --> 00:32:01.289 of an incident in 2022. It proves the pathology 00:32:01.289 --> 00:32:03.809 is still there. Even in a wheelchair, even with 00:32:03.809 --> 00:32:06.430 his health failing, he was caught inappropriately 00:32:06.430 --> 00:32:08.849 touching a female staff member during a diaper 00:32:08.849 --> 00:32:11.670 change. He just can't turn it off. The impulse 00:32:11.670 --> 00:32:14.880 is still there. It proves that the urge to violate 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.880 boundaries, to manipulate, to take what isn't 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:21.240 his, that part of his personality doesn't age 00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:24.859 out. It doesn't get sick or frail. The predator 00:32:24.859 --> 00:32:27.799 is still inside the dying body. His cultural 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:29.960 impact is massive. You can't really talk about 00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:32.019 serial killers in fiction without seeing his 00:32:32.019 --> 00:32:34.609 shadow. He inspired Buffalo Bill and Silence 00:32:34.609 --> 00:32:37.210 of the Lambs, elements of Patrick Bateman in 00:32:37.210 --> 00:32:39.390 American Psycho. And of course, the portrayal 00:32:39.390 --> 00:32:42.109 by Cameron Britton in the show Mindhunter was 00:32:42.109 --> 00:32:45.130 just uncanny. It brought him to a whole new generation. 00:32:45.549 --> 00:32:47.690 He is the archetype of the intellectual monster. 00:32:47.990 --> 00:32:51.109 He scares us because he breaks the mold. We want 00:32:51.109 --> 00:32:53.289 monsters to look like monsters. We don't want 00:32:53.289 --> 00:32:55.769 them to be polite, well -read men who can fix 00:32:55.769 --> 00:32:58.269 your car and narrate your favorite book. Kemper 00:32:58.269 --> 00:33:00.190 forces you to look at the fact that evil can 00:33:00.190 --> 00:33:02.390 be incredibly rational and articulate. So what 00:33:02.390 --> 00:33:03.910 does this all mean? We've looked at the biology, 00:33:04.150 --> 00:33:06.349 the abuse of mother, the systemic failures, the 00:33:06.349 --> 00:33:08.569 murders, and the legacy. What's the takeaway 00:33:08.569 --> 00:33:11.579 here? It is a terrifying case study in the perfect 00:33:11.579 --> 00:33:14.460 storm. You had the biological predisposition, 00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:17.099 the size, the intelligence, the possible brain 00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:19.660 wiring. You had the extreme environmental abuse 00:33:19.660 --> 00:33:21.559 from the one person who should have protected 00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:24.400 him. And you had the intellectual capacity to 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:27.640 mask it all. If any one of those factors had 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:29.019 been different, maybe you would have just been 00:33:29.019 --> 00:33:31.680 an unhappy guy who hated his mom, but together. 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.099 They created a monster. It raises a provocative 00:33:35.099 --> 00:33:37.799 final thought for me. Kemper always said he turned 00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:40.779 himself in because the popis was gone. He killed 00:33:40.779 --> 00:33:43.140 his mother, the source of his rage, and the urge 00:33:43.140 --> 00:33:45.680 vanished. Which is what he claims, yes. The mission 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:48.460 was complete. So if he hadn't killed his mother, 00:33:48.619 --> 00:33:51.240 if she had died of natural causes, or if he had 00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:53.400 just moved away and never seen her again, would 00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:55.900 he have ever stopped? Or would he have kept hunting 00:33:55.900 --> 00:33:58.640 surrogates forever, trying to satisfy an urge 00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.000 that could never be satisfied? That is the million 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:04.690 -dollar question. And, perhaps more disturbingly, 00:34:04.809 --> 00:34:07.390 Kemper turned himself in. We didn't catch him. 00:34:07.430 --> 00:34:09.329 He was a friendly giant hiding in plain sight. 00:34:09.769 --> 00:34:12.349 It makes you wonder, how many others are out 00:34:12.349 --> 00:34:14.150 there right now, sitting at a bar, chatting with 00:34:14.150 --> 00:34:16.150 the locals, completely invisible because they 00:34:16.150 --> 00:34:17.650 just haven't finished their personal mission 00:34:17.650 --> 00:34:19.789 yet? That is a thought that is going to keep 00:34:19.789 --> 00:34:22.110 me up tonight. Thank you for listening to this 00:34:22.110 --> 00:34:25.489 deep dive into Edmund Kemper. It's a dark one, 00:34:25.570 --> 00:34:28.650 but... Understanding the mind of the hunter is 00:34:28.650 --> 00:34:31.050 the only way we can hope to spot the next one. 00:34:31.110 --> 00:34:33.590 Stay curious and stay safe. We'll see you on 00:34:33.590 --> 00:34:34.949 the next Deep Dive.