WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.580 I want you to just for a second picture the ultimate 00:00:02.580 --> 00:00:07.280 American success story. It's let's say it's 1994. 00:00:07.660 --> 00:00:10.199 You're in Indianapolis. OK. And you walk into 00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:12.980 the store. It's called Savalot. It's a thrift 00:00:12.980 --> 00:00:15.019 store. But I don't want you to picture, you know, 00:00:15.019 --> 00:00:18.920 some dusty, disorganized basement. This is a 00:00:18.920 --> 00:00:21.780 chain. It's clean. It's bustling. It's really 00:00:21.780 --> 00:00:23.539 profitable. Right. It's a legitimate business 00:00:23.539 --> 00:00:26.519 empire in its own way. Exactly. And the guy running 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:29.109 this whole empire is Herb. Herbert Baumeister. 00:00:29.429 --> 00:00:31.489 He's a bit eccentric. You know, people said he 00:00:31.489 --> 00:00:33.369 wore suits that were maybe a little too loud, 00:00:33.450 --> 00:00:36.009 but he's the CEO. He's the guy. He's the man 00:00:36.009 --> 00:00:37.789 in charge. And he's got it all. The beautiful 00:00:37.789 --> 00:00:40.750 wife, three kids. And he lives on this massive, 00:00:40.850 --> 00:00:44.030 sprawling estate in Westfield called Fox Hollow 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:46.670 Farm. And when I say sprawling, I mean it. We're 00:00:46.670 --> 00:00:49.390 talking 18 acres. It's got an indoor pool, a 00:00:49.390 --> 00:00:53.539 Tudor style mansion. dense, private woods. It 00:00:53.539 --> 00:00:55.359 is the checklist, isn't it? Right. I mean, it 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:57.039 is literally everything you're supposed to aspire 00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:58.859 to. You've got the stability, the wealth, the 00:00:58.859 --> 00:01:01.340 privacy, respectability. Total respectability. 00:01:01.380 --> 00:01:03.479 And if you looked at Herbert Baumeister in 1994, 00:01:03.820 --> 00:01:06.819 that is exactly what you saw. But today, we aren't 00:01:06.819 --> 00:01:10.359 looking at that success story. We're going to 00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:12.299 dig into the cracks in that foundation because 00:01:12.299 --> 00:01:14.780 beneath that thrift store empire and that perfect 00:01:14.780 --> 00:01:18.780 family estate was a reality so dark and so violently 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:21.819 chaotic. That even now, and I mean literally 00:01:21.819 --> 00:01:25.700 as we speak, in the mid -2020s, forensic scientists 00:01:25.700 --> 00:01:28.340 are still sifting through the dirt at Fox Hollow 00:01:28.340 --> 00:01:30.879 Farm trying to figure out exactly how many people 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:32.920 died there. And that is not hyperbole. I really 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:35.239 want to stress that for you. We are looking at 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:38.319 a case where the recovery of human remains isn't 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:41.540 measured in bodies or even skeletons. It's measured 00:01:41.540 --> 00:01:44.329 in fragments. 10 ,000 bone fragments. Over 10 00:01:44.329 --> 00:01:46.409 ,000. It's a staggering number. That number just 00:01:46.409 --> 00:01:48.650 stops me cold every single time I read the notes 00:01:48.650 --> 00:01:51.489 for this deep dive. 10 ,000. It's almost impossible 00:01:51.489 --> 00:01:54.250 to comprehend. And it completely changes the 00:01:54.250 --> 00:01:56.430 mission of this discussion. We're not just here 00:01:56.430 --> 00:01:59.769 to recount a crime spree that's been done. We 00:01:59.769 --> 00:02:01.909 have to unpack the mechanics of a double life 00:02:01.909 --> 00:02:04.709 that lasted for over a decade. How does a man 00:02:04.709 --> 00:02:08.270 diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and antisocial 00:02:08.270 --> 00:02:10.810 personality disorder? I mean, these are labels 00:02:10.810 --> 00:02:13.050 that usually derail life before it even starts. 00:02:13.629 --> 00:02:16.210 How does he manage to build a fortune, raise 00:02:16.210 --> 00:02:19.169 a family and hunt human beings in plain sight? 00:02:19.330 --> 00:02:21.389 And we have the full stack of sources today to 00:02:21.389 --> 00:02:22.969 help us try and answer that. We've got the court 00:02:22.969 --> 00:02:25.330 records. We have the police investigation timelines 00:02:25.330 --> 00:02:28.710 from that whole I -70 strangler era. The forensic 00:02:28.710 --> 00:02:31.610 reports from the excavation at the farm. And 00:02:31.610 --> 00:02:34.090 crucially, the firsthand accounts of the one 00:02:34.090 --> 00:02:37.360 man who managed to get away. So let's get into 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:40.460 it. The making of this normal monster. Usually 00:02:40.460 --> 00:02:42.500 when we do these profiles, we look for that crack 00:02:42.500 --> 00:02:44.419 in the armor during childhood. You know, the 00:02:44.419 --> 00:02:46.400 narrative, the troubled youth where the system 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:48.719 fails some kid from a broken home. Right, the 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:50.639 classic criminological starting point. But with 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.219 Herb Baumeister, it wasn't a crack. It was like 00:02:53.219 --> 00:02:55.659 a complete shatter. And it happened in a home 00:02:55.659 --> 00:02:58.139 that, at least on paper, should have been perfect. 00:02:58.539 --> 00:03:02.610 It really was a paradox from day one. Demographically, 00:03:02.629 --> 00:03:05.349 he had every single advantage. He was born in 00:03:05.349 --> 00:03:09.050 1947 in Indianapolis. His father, Herbert Eugene 00:03:09.050 --> 00:03:12.189 Baumeister Sr., was a prominent anesthesiologist. 00:03:12.449 --> 00:03:15.030 So this was an upper middle class, highly educated 00:03:15.030 --> 00:03:18.150 household. So no poverty, no apparent external 00:03:18.150 --> 00:03:21.430 trauma that we see in so many other cases. None 00:03:21.430 --> 00:03:23.370 that's documented. It was, by all accounts, a 00:03:23.370 --> 00:03:25.710 stable, wealthy home. Which makes the behavior 00:03:25.710 --> 00:03:29.840 he exhibited as a child feel even more... I don't 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:32.599 know, biological or at least more innate. It's 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:34.500 not a reaction to something terrible happening 00:03:34.500 --> 00:03:36.960 to him. It seems to have come from within. We 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:38.879 have reports of him playing with dead animals, 00:03:38.979 --> 00:03:41.159 which is, you know, the classic Crim 101 red 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:43.520 flag. The McDonald triad, right? Exactly. End 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:45.840 of Reese's bed, wedding fire starting. And cruelty 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:48.919 to animals. It's the predictive triad for sociopathy 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:51.360 that criminologists have used for decades. Herb, 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:53.919 definitely check the animal cruelty box. But 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:55.280 there was something else in the clinical notes 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:56.780 from his youth that is, well, it's much more 00:03:56.780 --> 00:03:59.120 specific and, frankly, a lot more disturbing 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:01.379 than just acting out. You're talking about the 00:04:01.379 --> 00:04:04.719 urophilia. I am. An obsession with urine. And 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:07.599 we are not talking about a childish curiosity 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.659 here or, you know, a simple prank. This was a 00:04:10.659 --> 00:04:13.400 documented compulsion. He would, what, urinate 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:15.719 on things at school? On teachers' desks, yes. 00:04:15.900 --> 00:04:17.939 Yeah. Friends from his youth later came forward 00:04:17.939 --> 00:04:20.279 and reported him wondering aloud about the taste 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:22.759 of human urine. See, that's where we move from 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:25.240 a behavioral problem like acting out to something 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:28.259 deeply pathological. That is a fetishization 00:04:28.259 --> 00:04:31.839 of waste, of humiliation. And his father, the 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:33.720 doctor, he didn't just brush this off. That's 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:35.519 the part that really surprises me. It is surprising. 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:38.379 Usually in these wealthy families in the 50s 00:04:38.379 --> 00:04:40.839 and 60s, the instinct is to hide it, protect 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:43.560 the family name at all costs. You're absolutely 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:46.060 right. The typical reaction is to sweep it under 00:04:46.060 --> 00:04:48.399 the rug. But you have to give some credit where 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:50.939 it's due. In the 1960s, you know, mental health 00:04:50.939 --> 00:04:54.220 care was often heavily stigmatized. But Dr. Baumeister 00:04:54.220 --> 00:04:57.139 saw this behavior in his son and realized it 00:04:57.139 --> 00:04:59.600 was not just boys being boys. So he took action. 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:02.120 He did. He had herbs submitted for multiple mental 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:04.699 examinations in his teens. And the diagnosis 00:05:04.699 --> 00:05:06.939 they got back wasn't, you know, mild anxiety 00:05:06.939 --> 00:05:10.000 or ADHD. It was heavy. Far from it. This is the 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:13.170 bombshell. He was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia 00:05:13.170 --> 00:05:16.730 and antisocial personality disorder. Let's just 00:05:16.730 --> 00:05:19.350 pause and really unpack that combination for 00:05:19.350 --> 00:05:21.610 a minute, because those are two heavy hitters 00:05:21.610 --> 00:05:23.490 that don't always go together. They're distinct, 00:05:23.629 --> 00:05:25.449 but they are devastating when they're combined. 00:05:26.449 --> 00:05:29.149 Antisocial personality disorder, what most of 00:05:29.149 --> 00:05:31.870 us used to call sociopathy, is characterized 00:05:31.870 --> 00:05:34.769 by a pervasive disregard for the rights of others. 00:05:35.180 --> 00:05:38.000 There's no empathy. There's no remorse. It's 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:40.680 a total willingness to manipulate and exploit 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:43.980 for personal gain. That's the engine of the predator. 00:05:44.180 --> 00:05:46.220 OK, so that's the I don't care who I hurt part. 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:49.439 Exactly. You layer paranoid schizophrenia on 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:51.980 top of that. That introduces delusions, a potential 00:05:51.980 --> 00:05:54.899 break from reality, disorganized thinking, paranoia. 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:57.139 So you have a person who fundamentally doesn't 00:05:57.139 --> 00:05:59.480 care about hurting people. That's the ASPD. And 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:01.579 that's combined with a brain that might be feeding 00:06:01.579 --> 00:06:03.860 him a twisted version of reality where hurting 00:06:03.860 --> 00:06:07.040 people is somehow necessary or justified. That's 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.379 the schizophrenia. It is an incredibly volatile 00:06:09.379 --> 00:06:11.810 cocktail. and this is the part of the story that 00:06:11.810 --> 00:06:15.129 is just it's a tragedy because the system actually 00:06:15.129 --> 00:06:18.430 worked at first it identified him it put a label 00:06:18.430 --> 00:06:23.629 on the problem it did but then just nothing happened 00:06:23.629 --> 00:06:25.029 what do you mean nothing happened how do you 00:06:25.029 --> 00:06:27.350 get a diagnosis like that and just walk away 00:06:27.350 --> 00:06:30.949 the records we have indicate he received no significant 00:06:30.949 --> 00:06:34.459 long -term follow -up psychiatric treatment. 00:06:34.699 --> 00:06:37.839 No institutionalization that stuck. No heavy 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:39.899 medication regimen that was monitored by the 00:06:39.899 --> 00:06:42.860 state. He was a wealthy doctor's son. So he was 00:06:42.860 --> 00:06:44.839 effectively diagnosed and then sent back out 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:47.920 into the world to, quote, figure it out. That 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:49.899 is absolutely terrifying. It's like spotting 00:06:49.899 --> 00:06:52.360 a massive structural failure in a bridge, writing 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.360 a very detailed report about it, and then just 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:56.420 opening the bridge to rush hour traffic anyway. 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.779 A perfect analogy. So he goes to college. Or 00:06:58.779 --> 00:07:01.180 he tries to. He tries. He enrolled at Indiana 00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:04.040 University in 1965, but he dropped out. Then 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:07.339 later he tried Butler University in 72. Academically, 00:07:07.339 --> 00:07:10.699 he was just... He was flailing. He couldn't seem 00:07:10.699 --> 00:07:13.860 to focus. But... And this is so key to his later 00:07:13.860 --> 00:07:17.019 success. He had this relentless manic energy. 00:07:17.180 --> 00:07:19.300 People who worked with him called it a strong 00:07:19.300 --> 00:07:22.300 work ethic. Which is so often a mask for mania, 00:07:22.300 --> 00:07:25.699 right? Or hypomania. Precisely. He drifted through 00:07:25.699 --> 00:07:27.699 a bunch of jobs. He worked in media for a bit, 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:29.800 then for the Bureau of Motor Vehicles. But he 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:33.040 was always moving, always scheming. And eventually... 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:35.519 he figured out how to channel that manic energy 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.000 into entrepreneurship. And this is where Savalot 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:40.839 comes from. This is it. He founded the Savalot 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:43.939 thrift store chain in 1988. And suddenly the 00:07:43.939 --> 00:07:47.079 weird guy with the strange behavior becomes the 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:50.250 eccentric rich guy. Money has a way of washing 00:07:50.250 --> 00:07:52.470 away a lot of social sins. Oh, it buys a whole 00:07:52.470 --> 00:07:54.550 lot of cover. But while he's building this business, 00:07:54.750 --> 00:07:57.370 he's also building a family. And this part of 00:07:57.370 --> 00:07:59.490 the research, honestly, it just baffles me every 00:07:59.490 --> 00:08:01.910 time I read it. He marries Juliana Sater Julie 00:08:01.910 --> 00:08:05.810 in 1971. And they stay married for over 25 years. 00:08:06.050 --> 00:08:08.350 But the details of that marriage are just bizarre. 00:08:09.209 --> 00:08:12.230 Bizarre is a profound understatement. This is 00:08:12.230 --> 00:08:14.370 what I call the marriage paradox. Yeah. On the 00:08:14.370 --> 00:08:17.240 surface, they are the successful couple. Behind 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:19.079 closed doors, they were practically strangers 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:21.759 just living in the same house. Julie later revealed 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:23.980 that in a quarter century of marriage, they were 00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:27.540 sexually intimate a grand total of six times. 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:31.540 Six. Not six times a year. Six times total. Total 00:08:31.540 --> 00:08:34.240 in over 25 years. And she also stated she never 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:37.580 once saw her husband fully nude. How does that 00:08:37.580 --> 00:08:40.240 even work? I mean, I'm serious. You are living 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:41.820 with someone. You're raising three children with 00:08:41.820 --> 00:08:44.519 them. How do you maintain that level of just... 00:08:44.970 --> 00:08:47.389 physical and emotional distance without the whole 00:08:47.389 --> 00:08:49.830 thing imploding. Was it just a marriage of convenience? 00:08:50.490 --> 00:08:53.230 It's hard to say for sure without being inside 00:08:53.230 --> 00:08:55.309 their heads, but it speaks to the incredible 00:08:55.309 --> 00:08:58.289 power of denial and probably a significant amount 00:08:58.289 --> 00:09:01.330 of gaslighting on Herb's part. He likely framed 00:09:01.330 --> 00:09:04.049 his complete lack of intimacy as, you know, I'm 00:09:04.049 --> 00:09:06.450 stressed from work or just chalked it up to his 00:09:06.450 --> 00:09:08.730 quirkiness. And the money probably helped smooth 00:09:08.730 --> 00:09:11.889 over a lot of questions. Of course. Plus, remember 00:09:11.889 --> 00:09:16.059 the era. Divorce was messier, more stigmatized. 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:18.460 They had a business to run together, and Herb 00:09:18.460 --> 00:09:20.820 was clearly a master of compartmentalizing his 00:09:20.820 --> 00:09:24.940 life. But there were cracks, huge cracks. Just 00:09:24.940 --> 00:09:27.740 six months into the marriage, Herb's father committed 00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:30.240 him again. Wait, six months in? So the honeymoon 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:32.320 phase is barely even over, and he's being committed 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:35.379 to a psychiatric hospital? Yes, for two months. 00:09:35.870 --> 00:09:38.169 And the reason given to Julie at the time was 00:09:38.169 --> 00:09:40.309 that he was hurting and needed help. So the wife 00:09:40.309 --> 00:09:42.529 knew. She had to know he was deeply unstable. 00:09:42.789 --> 00:09:44.570 You don't send your new husband away for two 00:09:44.570 --> 00:09:46.750 months because he has the flu. She knew something 00:09:46.750 --> 00:09:49.110 was fundamentally wrong, yes. Yeah. But again, 00:09:49.309 --> 00:09:52.190 once he came out, the machine of their life just 00:09:52.190 --> 00:09:55.549 kept rolling forward. The business grew, the 00:09:55.549 --> 00:09:58.309 money poured in, and the darkness was an inside 00:09:58.309 --> 00:10:01.440 herb. It needed an outlet. And since he was willing 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:03.440 it at home and he wasn't treating it with any 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:05.580 kind of therapy or medication. It spilled out 00:10:05.580 --> 00:10:07.899 onto the highway. This brings us to the I -70 00:10:07.899 --> 00:10:10.019 Strangler era. We really need to set the scene 00:10:10.019 --> 00:10:13.299 here for you. It's the 1980s, Indianapolis. This 00:10:13.299 --> 00:10:16.440 is such a critical period. From about June 1980 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.000 to October 1991. This is pre -Fox Hollow Farm. 00:10:20.379 --> 00:10:22.600 This is when his hunting ground was the interstate. 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:26.000 During this decade, police start seeing this 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.179 terrifying pattern emerge. Young boys and adult 00:10:29.179 --> 00:10:31.779 men are disappearing. Many of them are last seen 00:10:31.779 --> 00:10:34.059 around the gay bar scene in Indianapolis places 00:10:34.059 --> 00:10:36.919 like the 21st Amendment or a music venue called 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:39.600 The Vogue. And the bodies. They aren't being 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:41.600 found in the city. They're not found in alleyways 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:43.279 or dumpsters in Indy, which is what you might 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.279 expect. No. This is where the I -70 moniker comes 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:49.139 from. The killer was using the interstate as 00:10:49.139 --> 00:10:51.500 a disposal system. He was driving the bodies 00:10:51.500 --> 00:10:53.559 far away from where he picked them up. So the 00:10:53.559 --> 00:10:56.559 victims would be found how? They were found strangled, 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:59.080 usually nude or semi -nude, and they were just 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:01.519 dumped in rural streams or shallow ditches right 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:03.879 along Interstate 70, stretching from central 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:06.899 Indiana all the way into Ohio. That's a specific 00:11:06.899 --> 00:11:09.500 forensic countermeasure, isn't it? Dumping bodies, 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.220 especially crossing state lines. Oh, it is smart. 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.080 It's evil, but it's smart. By dumping bodies 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:18.740 in, say, Preble County, Ohio, or different jurisdictions 00:11:18.740 --> 00:11:21.840 across Indiana, he completely fragmented the 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:24.200 investigation. I see. You've got the Indianapolis 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:26.740 PD handling the missing persons reports, but 00:11:26.740 --> 00:11:28.639 then you have a sheriff's deputy, two counties, 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:32.539 overhandling the homicide of a John Doe. And 00:11:32.539 --> 00:11:35.320 in the days before digitized shared databases, 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:37.659 remember this is the 80s, there's no internet, 00:11:37.700 --> 00:11:40.360 no national DNA database, these different agencies 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:42.179 were just not talking to each other efficiently. 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:45.399 He was exploiting the seams in the system. Perfectly. 00:11:45.419 --> 00:11:47.299 Let's talk about the victims, because for a very 00:11:47.299 --> 00:11:49.480 long time, these were just a string of tragic, 00:11:49.659 --> 00:11:52.879 unsolved cases. But when you look back now, the 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:55.759 cruelty and the pattern are so distinct. Take 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:58.799 the very first one linked to the series. Michael 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.000 Sean Petrie. June 1980. He was only 15 years 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:04.940 old. Found naked, strangled. The autopsy showed 00:12:04.940 --> 00:12:07.419 no drugs or alcohol in his system. Which suggests 00:12:07.419 --> 00:12:10.570 what? That lack of intoxication suggests he was 00:12:10.570 --> 00:12:12.929 either overpowered by force or coerced through 00:12:12.929 --> 00:12:15.549 fear. He wasn't out partying and let his guard 00:12:15.549 --> 00:12:19.350 down. He was taken. Or he was lured under some 00:12:19.350 --> 00:12:21.629 other false pretense that didn't involve a party 00:12:21.629 --> 00:12:23.909 scene. He was targeted. He was targeted. And 00:12:23.909 --> 00:12:26.509 then you look at Delvoid Lee Baker in 1982. He 00:12:26.509 --> 00:12:30.590 was 14. This case is one of those what -if moments 00:12:30.590 --> 00:12:33.779 in the investigation that is just... It's heartbreaking. 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:35.679 This is the witness sighting, right? The one 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:37.500 that must keep investigators up at night. Yes. 00:12:38.179 --> 00:12:40.840 Witnesses actually saw Baker getting into a vehicle 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:43.399 with its killer. They described it as a blue 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:46.960 van and the driver, a white male with a bushy 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.519 mustache. If you look at any photograph of Herb 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.340 Baumeister from the 1980s, that mustache is practically 00:12:52.340 --> 00:12:55.139 his logo. I mean, it is huge. It's undeniable. 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.779 It was his signature look. And guess what he 00:12:57.779 --> 00:13:00.379 drove during that period? A blue van. The pieces 00:13:00.379 --> 00:13:02.580 were all there. Baker had been seen near the 00:13:02.580 --> 00:13:05.159 gay cruising spots in downtown Indy, which fits 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:07.360 the Predators' hunting ground perfectly. But 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:10.120 despite that incredible description, the van, 00:13:10.259 --> 00:13:13.379 the Mustache Baumeister, wasn't caught. The connection 00:13:13.379 --> 00:13:16.059 just wasn't made. The lead just went cold. It 00:13:16.059 --> 00:13:18.100 went cold. And then there was Michael Andrew 00:13:18.100 --> 00:13:21.419 Riley in 1983. He was last seen at the Vogue 00:13:21.419 --> 00:13:24.460 Theater. A witness later, and this is years later, 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:27.539 unfortunately, positively identified a photo 00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:30.259 of Baumeister as the man Riley left with that 00:13:30.259 --> 00:13:33.019 night. Wow. And the geography just keeps expanding, 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.320 too. It wasn't just Indiana anymore. The bodies 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:38.460 started appearing in Ohio, Preble County, Eaton, 00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:41.860 Ohio. Victims like Eric Allen Roker, Michael 00:13:41.860 --> 00:13:44.590 Allen Glenn, Stephen Lynn Elliott. Clay Russell 00:13:44.590 --> 00:13:47.370 Boatman, Thomas Ray Clevenger Jr. So he's driving 00:13:47.370 --> 00:13:50.009 hours to dump these bodies. That's a significant 00:13:50.009 --> 00:13:52.590 time investment and a huge risk. It shows the 00:13:52.590 --> 00:13:55.240 depth of the compulsion. He was living this unbelievable 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:57.059 double life where he'd work at the thrift store, 00:13:57.139 --> 00:13:59.500 go home and play the dad, and then spend his 00:13:59.500 --> 00:14:01.379 nights driving hundreds of miles with a corpse 00:14:01.379 --> 00:14:03.559 in his trunk or his van. Is it? Of a level of 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:05.960 adrenaline addiction and cold, calculated risk 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:08.379 -taking that is hard to comprehend. It is. But 00:14:08.379 --> 00:14:11.740 then, in 1991, the pattern just stops. The bodies 00:14:11.740 --> 00:14:13.799 stop appearing along I -70. The whole series 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:16.200 just breaks. And in criminology, when a pattern 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.659 like that breaks, you usually assume one of two 00:14:18.659 --> 00:14:21.080 things. The guy got arrested for something else 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:23.080 or he died. But that's not what happened here. 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:25.419 Not at all. He didn't stop killing. He just changed 00:14:25.419 --> 00:14:29.179 his real estate situation. In May of 1988, Baumeister 00:14:29.179 --> 00:14:32.860 bought Fox Hollow Farm. So he buys this 18 acre 00:14:32.860 --> 00:14:35.399 estate in Westfield. It's secluded. It's got 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:38.139 dense woods. He no longer needs to drive all 00:14:38.139 --> 00:14:40.360 the way to Ohio to dump a body. Exactly. He can 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:42.960 just bring them home. Precisely. The farm gave 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:45.980 him total, absolute control. He didn't have to 00:14:45.980 --> 00:14:48.240 worry about a passing motorist or a state trooper 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:50.879 seeing him drag a body into a ditch at 3 in the 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:53.360 morning. He had a private graveyard right in 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:55.620 his own backyard. And this transition from a 00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:59.159 traveling killer to a territorial killer is just 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:01.580 terrifying because it implies a total loss of 00:15:01.580 --> 00:15:04.059 fear. He felt completely untouchable. He felt 00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:06.460 like a king in his castle. And that incredible 00:15:06.460 --> 00:15:09.299 arrogance led to one of the most disturbing and 00:15:09.299 --> 00:15:11.539 surreal anecdotes I have ever encountered in 00:15:11.539 --> 00:15:15.840 all of true crime. It's 1994. The family is living 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:17.519 at the farm. This is the story with his son, 00:15:17.580 --> 00:15:21.779 right? Yes. Herb's teenage son is out playing 00:15:21.779 --> 00:15:24.200 in the woods behind the house, just, you know, 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:26.980 digging around, exploring like kids do. And he 00:15:26.980 --> 00:15:31.240 finds something. He unearths a complete, partially 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:34.299 buried human skeleton. Imagine that moment. You're 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:37.059 a kid. You're in your own backyard, a place that's 00:15:37.059 --> 00:15:39.740 supposed to be safe. And you pull a human skull 00:15:39.740 --> 00:15:42.820 out of the dirt. So he runs to his dad. Dad, 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.259 dad, I found a skeleton. Now, any normal human 00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:49.559 being, any parent on the planet calls 911 immediately. 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:53.139 Or Baumeister. He doesn't even blink. What is 00:15:53.139 --> 00:15:55.460 the lie he spins? Because it has to be a masterpiece 00:15:55.460 --> 00:15:57.539 of a lie to actually work in that situation. 00:15:58.100 --> 00:16:00.259 It's so audacious. It's almost brilliant. He 00:16:00.259 --> 00:16:02.580 tells his son and his wife all that. That's just 00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:04.899 one of my father's old dissecting skeletons from 00:16:04.899 --> 00:16:06.879 his medical practice. I buried it out there to 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:08.700 get rid of it. Wait, wait, wait. I buried a medical 00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:10.480 skeleton in the woods to get rid of it? That 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.299 doesn't even make any logical sense. If it's 00:16:12.299 --> 00:16:13.879 a medical specimen, you put it in the trash. 00:16:14.059 --> 00:16:16.080 You donate it to a medical school. Why would 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:18.820 you bury it shallowly in your yard? It is completely 00:16:18.820 --> 00:16:21.860 illogical. Yeah. But it relies on the power and 00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:25.259 authority of the doctor -father excuse. By invoking 00:16:25.259 --> 00:16:27.720 his father's respected profession, he completely 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:30.460 shuts down the inquiry. It becomes, it's medical 00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:32.740 stuff you wouldn't understand. And the family 00:16:32.740 --> 00:16:35.320 believed him. They bought it. But here's the 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.860 truly sinister part that proves his guilt. He 00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:39.539 didn't call the police to come and collect this 00:16:39.539 --> 00:16:42.419 medical specimen. He dug the rest of it up himself, 00:16:42.700 --> 00:16:45.059 stored it in the family garage for a while, and 00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:46.820 then he reburied it somewhere else on the property. 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:50.240 That is the definition of audacity. He is literally 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:52.700 handling the remains of a murder victim right 00:16:52.700 --> 00:16:55.000 in front of his family, and he's gaslighting 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.120 them into thinking it's a plastic model or some 00:16:57.120 --> 00:16:59.840 antique medical tool. It shows how confident 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:02.320 he was in his absolute control over them. It's 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.460 a master class in manipulation and control. He 00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:07.880 exploited their trust and his father's professional 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.339 background to explain away the completely indefensible. 00:17:11.500 --> 00:17:13.819 And because they bought his lie, the killing 00:17:13.819 --> 00:17:15.539 was allowed to continue for another two years. 00:17:15.740 --> 00:17:17.910 I have to push back on this a little bit. does 00:17:17.910 --> 00:17:21.759 julie his wife really just accept it Or is it 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:24.039 more likely that she looks at her wealthy lifestyle, 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.299 her huge house, her three children, and she decides 00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:30.319 that a plastic skeleton explanation is a much 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:32.859 better reality to live in than a dead body? I 00:17:32.859 --> 00:17:34.559 think that's the million -dollar question, isn't 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.539 it? Denial is an incredibly powerful survival 00:17:37.539 --> 00:17:40.220 mechanism. If she acknowledges that it's a real 00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:42.339 body, her entire life, her children's lives, 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:45.099 everything detonates that moment. So consciously 00:17:45.099 --> 00:17:47.599 or subconsciously, she accepts the lie. She has 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:49.849 to. But the clock was ticking because by the 00:17:49.849 --> 00:17:52.309 early 90s, the police in Indianapolis were finally 00:17:52.309 --> 00:17:54.410 starting to put the pieces together. They started 00:17:54.410 --> 00:17:56.690 to realize that a lot of gay men, all of a similar 00:17:56.690 --> 00:17:59.109 height, weight and age, were just vanishing. 00:17:59.369 --> 00:18:02.670 And then a hero emerges, a man named Tony Harris. 00:18:02.950 --> 00:18:05.410 Tony Harris is absolutely the key to breaking 00:18:05.410 --> 00:18:07.910 this entire case. He wasn't a detective. He wasn't 00:18:07.910 --> 00:18:10.210 law enforcement. He was a potential victim who 00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:12.250 survived. Walk us through what happened to Tony, 00:18:12.329 --> 00:18:14.369 because this is the moment the whole facade finally 00:18:14.369 --> 00:18:16.880 starts to crack. So Tony meets a guy at a gay 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.359 bar in Indianapolis called the 501 Club. This 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:23.359 guy introduces himself as Brian Smart. Brian 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:26.480 Smart. OK, not exactly a master of disguise with 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:28.819 the naming convention there. No, it's simple. 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:32.160 It's forgettable. Brian Smart invites Tony back 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.220 to his place, which he describes as this huge 00:18:34.220 --> 00:18:36.779 mansion with an indoor pool. This is Fox Hollow 00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:40.380 Farm. While they are there, things get weird 00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:43.670 and then they get dangerous. Brian suggests they 00:18:43.670 --> 00:18:46.329 try erotic asphyxiation. He wants to choke Tony. 00:18:46.630 --> 00:18:51.089 But not with a scarf or a belt. With a pool hose. 00:18:51.289 --> 00:18:54.029 A pool hose. That is terrifyingly specific and 00:18:54.029 --> 00:18:56.509 brutal. It implies he's done this before. It 00:18:56.509 --> 00:18:59.349 implies he had a routine, a kit. It absolutely 00:18:59.349 --> 00:19:01.930 does. And Tony Harris realizes this isn't a game 00:19:01.930 --> 00:19:03.890 anymore. He feels the pressure from the hose. 00:19:04.069 --> 00:19:06.869 He realizes his life is in actual danger. He 00:19:06.869 --> 00:19:08.789 manages to survive the encounter. Reports vary 00:19:08.789 --> 00:19:11.130 on whether he played it cool or fought back enough 00:19:11.130 --> 00:19:13.190 to break the mood. But the important thing is 00:19:13.190 --> 00:19:15.650 he gets out of there alive. Wow. But he's deeply 00:19:15.650 --> 00:19:17.849 suspicious. He knows something is seriously wrong 00:19:17.849 --> 00:19:19.569 with this Brian Smart character in his creepy 00:19:19.569 --> 00:19:21.710 mansion. But he doesn't know who Brian Smart 00:19:21.710 --> 00:19:24.630 actually is. All he has is a fake name and a 00:19:24.630 --> 00:19:27.089 memory of a house out in the woods. Right. And 00:19:27.089 --> 00:19:30.240 for a while. Brian Smart just disappears. But 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.500 Tony Harris is vigilant. He's on the lookout. 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:37.759 Then, in August of 1995, miraculously, he spots 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:40.180 Brian Smart again out in public. This is the 00:19:40.180 --> 00:19:42.200 moment. This is where the whole house of cards 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:45.200 starts to fall. Tony doesn't confront him. He 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:47.440 does something much smarter. He follows him. 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.240 He trails his car. And this is the crucial detail 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:53.599 that breaks the case. He gets the license plate 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:55.660 number. He takes that plate number straight to 00:19:55.660 --> 00:19:57.160 the police. And when they run the plates, it 00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:58.960 doesn't come back to any Brian Smart. It comes 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:00.799 back to Herbert Baumeister. The wealthy thrift 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:04.359 store owner. The respected family man. And now 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:06.880 the police finally have a name. They have a prime 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.200 suspect. So they go to him, right? They confront 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.940 him at the house. They do. They show up at Fox 00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:14.119 Hollow. They inform him he's a suspect in the 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:16.640 disappearances of multiple men. They ask for 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:18.559 his permission to search the house and the grounds. 00:20:18.700 --> 00:20:21.920 And he refuses. Of course he refuses. But here's 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:23.599 the problem with the law. You need a warrant 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:27.220 or you need consent. Herb refuses. And initially, 00:20:27.380 --> 00:20:30.779 his wife Julie refuses too. Why did Julie refuse? 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.380 At this point, was she still protecting him? 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.700 Or was she just protecting the house, the family 00:20:35.700 --> 00:20:38.460 from the intrusion? It's complex. I think it's 00:20:38.460 --> 00:20:41.700 likely a mix of deep denial, genuine fear, and 00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:43.559 just trying to protect the sanctity of her home 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:45.819 and her children from what she probably saw as 00:20:45.819 --> 00:20:48.839 a police intrusion. But the pressure starts to 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.640 mount. The police keep pushing and Herb's behavior 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:53.980 starts to completely spiral out of control. He's 00:20:53.980 --> 00:20:55.960 becoming erratic. The mask is slipping off for 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:59.059 good. And by June 1996, Julie has had enough. 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:01.099 She's frightened of him. The marriage is totally 00:21:01.099 --> 00:21:03.779 crumbling. She files for divorce. And then crucially, 00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:05.980 while Herb is away on vacation, she finally gives 00:21:05.980 --> 00:21:07.680 the police what they've been waiting for. She 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:09.779 consents to a search. This is the turning point. 00:21:10.059 --> 00:21:14.519 June 24th, 1996. Investigators descend on Fox 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.150 Hollow Farm. And you have to remember, they are 00:21:17.150 --> 00:21:19.410 going in there looking for evidence of maybe 00:21:19.410 --> 00:21:22.289 one or two people based on Tony Harris's story. 00:21:22.430 --> 00:21:24.470 They think maybe if they're lucky, they'll find 00:21:24.470 --> 00:21:26.269 a body. They were not prepared for what they 00:21:26.269 --> 00:21:28.509 actually found. Not at all. They started digging 00:21:28.509 --> 00:21:30.769 in the woods in the very spot where Herb's son 00:21:30.769 --> 00:21:33.089 had found the so -called medical skeleton two 00:21:33.089 --> 00:21:35.990 years earlier. And they just kept finding bone 00:21:35.990 --> 00:21:40.069 fragments and more fragments, ribs, vertebrae, 00:21:40.069 --> 00:21:44.299 pieces of skulls. And the condition was... Horrible. 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.819 They were burned. They were crushed into small 00:21:46.819 --> 00:21:49.559 pieces. This wasn't just a grave. It was a disposal 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:52.779 site, a human processing site. They eventually 00:21:52.779 --> 00:21:55.680 recovered remains belonging to at least 11 different 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:57.920 people just in that initial search. Meanwhile, 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:01.279 Erb is on vacation. He knows the gig is up, doesn't 00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:03.259 he? Oh, he knows. He flees. He doesn't come back 00:22:03.259 --> 00:22:05.980 to Indiana. He flees to Canada. He crosses the 00:22:05.980 --> 00:22:08.799 border into Ontario and drives to a place called 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:11.559 Pinery Provincial Park right on the shores of 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:13.900 Lake Huron. And this is how it ends. Not with 00:22:13.900 --> 00:22:17.160 a trial, not with a confession in a quiet interrogation 00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:22.009 room. No. On July 3rd, 1996, finding himself 00:22:22.009 --> 00:22:24.710 completely cornered by the reality of what the 00:22:24.710 --> 00:22:26.890 police were digging up in his backyard, Herb 00:22:26.890 --> 00:22:29.230 Baumeister sat down on the shores of Lake Huron. 00:22:29.549 --> 00:22:31.890 The reports say he ate a peanut butter sandwich, 00:22:32.069 --> 00:22:35.809 and then he shot himself in the head with a .357 00:22:35.809 --> 00:22:38.390 Magnum. He left a suicide note, though, and the 00:22:38.390 --> 00:22:40.589 note is, well, it tells you everything you need 00:22:40.589 --> 00:22:42.789 to know about his personality right to the very 00:22:42.789 --> 00:22:46.109 end. It is the final act of a complete narcissist. 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.859 He wrote it on a piece of yellow notepaper. In 00:22:49.859 --> 00:22:52.420 it, he apologized for messing up the park with 00:22:52.420 --> 00:22:55.920 his suicide. He expressed regret about his failing 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:58.579 business and his broken marriage. But he admitted 00:22:58.579 --> 00:23:00.740 to nothing. Nothing about the murder. Not a word. 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:03.359 No mention of the victims. No remorse for the 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:05.200 lives he took. His final thoughts were basically, 00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:07.859 sorry about the mess and sorry my business failed. 00:23:08.250 --> 00:23:10.410 There was also that strange detail where he mentioned 00:23:10.410 --> 00:23:12.369 he intended to kill himself in a different spot 00:23:12.369 --> 00:23:14.450 in the park, but he saw children playing there 00:23:14.450 --> 00:23:18.390 and changed his mind. Yes. A very strange final 00:23:18.390 --> 00:23:23.009 attempt to appear human or moral, maybe. Or maybe 00:23:23.009 --> 00:23:24.730 he just didn't want to be interrupted. It's impossible 00:23:24.730 --> 00:23:27.789 to say for sure. But what is certain is that 00:23:27.789 --> 00:23:30.049 he died taking the secrets of the exact number 00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:32.559 of his victims with him to the grave. But the 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:35.319 story doesn't end in 1996. And this is really 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:38.019 why we are doing this deep dive today. Because 00:23:38.019 --> 00:23:40.480 the science has had to catch up to Urbaumeister's 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:43.619 profound cruelty. We need to talk about the victims 00:23:43.619 --> 00:23:46.220 of Fox Hollow. Absolutely. The victims are the 00:23:46.220 --> 00:23:48.960 focus now. For decades, many of those thousands 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.200 of bone fragments were... Unidentified. They 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.019 were John Doe's in an evidence box. But the revolution 00:23:55.019 --> 00:23:57.799 in forensic genetic genealogy has changed everything. 00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:00.140 Let's name the ones we know, the ones whose families 00:24:00.140 --> 00:24:02.480 finally got an answer. We have Johnny Bear, Jeff 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:04.880 Jones, Richard Douglas Hamilton Jr. All of them 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:07.660 went missing in 1993 and were identified fairly 00:24:07.660 --> 00:24:09.759 early on through dental records or other traditional 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.160 means. But then you have the recent identifications, 00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:14.460 which are just incredible victories for forensic 00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:16.779 science. Alan Lee Livingston. He went missing 00:24:16.779 --> 00:24:20.230 in August of 1993. Right. And his remains weren't 00:24:20.230 --> 00:24:23.789 identified until October of 2023. Can you imagine 00:24:23.789 --> 00:24:26.890 that family waiting 30 years for an answer? And 00:24:26.890 --> 00:24:30.230 Manuel Resendez, also missing in 93. His remains 00:24:30.230 --> 00:24:32.829 were identified in January of 2024. And even 00:24:32.829 --> 00:24:36.470 more recently, Daniel Thomas Halloran. His remains 00:24:36.470 --> 00:24:39.910 were identified in 2025. This is absolutely cutting 00:24:39.910 --> 00:24:42.849 -edge work. They are pulling usable DNA from... 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:45.599 Tiny bone fragments that were burned and then 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:48.140 buried in the ground for decades. Can you explain 00:24:48.140 --> 00:24:50.359 for us why that is so incredibly hard? I mean, 00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:53.640 we see DNA evidence solving a case in 48 hours 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.440 on TV shows. Why did it take until 2025 for Daniel 00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:59.599 Halloran's family to get an answer? It's because 00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:01.759 of the condition of the remains. Baumeister burned 00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:03.880 these bodies. When bone is burned at high temperatures, 00:25:04.099 --> 00:25:06.759 a process called calcination, the heat literally 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:08.980 destroys the organic material within the bone. 00:25:09.019 --> 00:25:10.740 It destroys the collagen, which is where the 00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:13.420 DNA lives. For a very long time, standard forensic 00:25:13.420 --> 00:25:15.079 DNA testing just couldn't get a read on burned 00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:17.220 bone. It would just come back as no result. So 00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:19.960 for more than 20 years, those bones just sat 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:22.000 in storage in an evidence locker because the 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:24.890 science just wasn't there yet. Exactly. But now 00:25:24.890 --> 00:25:28.069 labs like Othram in Texas are able to use new 00:25:28.069 --> 00:25:31.730 techniques to extract usable DNA from minute 00:25:31.730 --> 00:25:35.170 amounts of this degraded calcined bone. They 00:25:35.170 --> 00:25:38.309 can build a DNA profile, upload it to genealogical 00:25:38.309 --> 00:25:42.150 databases like GEDmatch or Family Tree DNA, and 00:25:42.150 --> 00:25:43.829 then look for distant cousins of the victim. 00:25:44.289 --> 00:25:46.069 That's how we're finally getting these names 00:25:46.069 --> 00:25:48.069 back. There's also the case of Jerry Williams 00:25:48.069 --> 00:25:50.170 Comer. He's technically considered an additional 00:25:50.170 --> 00:25:52.670 victim, is that right? Yes, he's strongly linked. 00:25:52.789 --> 00:25:55.950 He went missing in 1995. His remains were never 00:25:55.950 --> 00:25:58.210 found at the farm, but his car was found abandoned 00:25:58.210 --> 00:26:00.769 at a mall, and he fit the victim profile perfectly. 00:26:01.809 --> 00:26:03.910 Authorities have posthumously linked his disappearance 00:26:03.910 --> 00:26:06.349 directly to Baumeister. The scale of the forensic 00:26:06.349 --> 00:26:08.329 challenge at Fox Hollow is something I just don't 00:26:08.329 --> 00:26:10.150 think people can fully grasp. Right. We're not 00:26:10.150 --> 00:26:12.109 talking about digging up full skeletons. No. 00:26:12.410 --> 00:26:14.769 As we mentioned, in December of 2022, they did 00:26:14.769 --> 00:26:16.450 another search of the property and found even 00:26:16.450 --> 00:26:18.869 more bone fragments. The coroner in Hamilton 00:26:18.869 --> 00:26:21.690 County, Jeff Jellison, is currently dealing with 00:26:21.690 --> 00:26:24.589 roughly 10 ,000 separate fragments. It's like 00:26:24.589 --> 00:26:26.609 a macabre jigsaw puzzle, where half the pieces 00:26:26.609 --> 00:26:28.559 are missing and the other half are burned. And 00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:30.039 they made a public appeal, didn't they? They 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:32.079 asked for DNA from the public. They did. It's 00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:34.440 an ongoing effort. They've asked anyone who had 00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:36.940 male relatives who went missing from the mid 00:26:36.940 --> 00:26:39.380 -80s to the mid -90s in the Indianapolis area 00:26:39.380 --> 00:26:42.420 to please come forward and submit a DNA sample. 00:26:42.859 --> 00:26:45.000 Because that is the only way they're going to 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.119 be able to match these tiny fragments to a name. 00:26:47.259 --> 00:26:49.559 It's just heartbreaking work, but it's so necessary. 00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:52.980 You know, this case has entered pop culture in 00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:55.539 a really weird way. There are all these ghost 00:26:55.539 --> 00:26:58.039 hunting shows, ghost adventures, paranormal witness 00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:01.359 that go to Fox Hollow Farm because of the whole 00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:04.279 haunting aspect. It's a double edged sword. On 00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:06.720 one hand, the sensationalism keeps the story 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.000 alive in the public consciousness, which is good. 00:27:09.099 --> 00:27:11.960 But on the other hand, it really risks trivializing 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:15.119 the very real, very horrific crimes that happen 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.000 there. I agree. It shifts the focus away from 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.579 the victims, from Alan, from Manuel, from Daniel, 00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:23.440 and puts it on spooky noises and EMF meters. 00:27:23.980 --> 00:27:26.059 We have to remember that this isn't a ghost story. 00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:28.500 It's a crime scene, a very active crime scene. 00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:30.920 I agree completely. It has to be about the people 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.160 who were lost and the families still waiting 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:36.259 for answers. And it's about the failure of the 00:27:36.259 --> 00:27:38.759 system that allowed a man like Herb Baumeister 00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:41.779 to operate for so long. So let's try to wrap 00:27:41.779 --> 00:27:44.579 this up. We've unpacked the life of a man who 00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:47.240 was just a walking contradiction. A successful 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:50.680 CEO and a prolific serial predator. A father 00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:52.799 who played with his kids in the yard and a monster 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:55.599 who buried bodies in that same dirt. It is the 00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:58.700 ultimate terrifying thought. The banality of 00:27:58.700 --> 00:28:01.640 evil. Baumeister wasn't some ghoul lurking in 00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:04.000 the shadows 24 -7. He was at the board meeting. 00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:05.579 He was at the dinner table. He was the guy you 00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:07.980 bought your vintage coat from at Savalot. The 00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:10.680 fragility of that normal facade is what really 00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:12.299 stays with me. The fact that he could keep it 00:28:12.299 --> 00:28:15.359 up for so long, so successfully. He did. And 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.339 he was definitely aided by the fact that he targeted 00:28:18.339 --> 00:28:21.279 marginalized community gay men, sometimes sex 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:24.480 workers, people who society in the 80s and 90s 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:27.440 sadly didn't prioritize looking for when they 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:29.680 went missing. He knew who he was hunting and 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:31.579 he knew how to hide behind his wealth and privilege. 00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:34.039 I want to leave you with one final thought. I 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:36.180 want you to think back to that skeleton in the 00:28:36.180 --> 00:28:40.400 garden. The medical skeleton excuse. It sounds 00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:42.980 completely ridiculous to us now, hearing it with 00:28:42.980 --> 00:28:46.220 the benefit of hindsight, but it worked. It worked 00:28:46.220 --> 00:28:48.220 because the people around him wanted it to be 00:28:48.220 --> 00:28:50.380 true. They wanted to believe the lie because 00:28:50.380 --> 00:28:53.259 the truth was simply too horrifying to contemplate. 00:28:53.339 --> 00:28:55.400 And it raises that uncomfortable question, doesn't 00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:58.619 it? What anomalies in our own lives do we overlook? 00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:01.279 What excuses do we accept from the people we 00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:04.220 love or work with because we just can't bear 00:29:04.220 --> 00:29:06.930 to see what might actually be there? Right under 00:29:06.930 --> 00:29:09.150 the surface. And with thousands of bone fragments 00:29:09.150 --> 00:29:11.849 still being analyzed and new names like Daniel 00:29:11.849 --> 00:29:15.410 Halloran surfacing as late as 2025, how many 00:29:15.410 --> 00:29:17.710 more families are still out there right now waiting 00:29:17.710 --> 00:29:19.750 for a knock on the door, waiting for forensic 00:29:19.750 --> 00:29:22.390 science to finally reclaim a name from the soil 00:29:22.390 --> 00:29:25.349 of Fox Hollow Farm? The ground at Fox Hollow 00:29:25.349 --> 00:29:27.470 hasn't finished telling its story yet. That's 00:29:27.470 --> 00:29:30.450 it for this deep dive. Stay curious, stay skeptical, 00:29:30.509 --> 00:29:32.450 and we'll catch you on the next one. Welcome 00:29:32.450 --> 00:29:36.319 to The Debate. Today, we are dissecting the mind 00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:39.559 of a man who really treated the American dream 00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:42.819 as a mask for a complete nightmare. We are talking 00:29:42.819 --> 00:29:46.000 about Herb Baumeister, the founder of the successful 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:49.420 Save -A -Lot Thrift Empire, a father, and the 00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:51.759 owner of the sprawling Fox Hollow Farm Estate 00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:55.259 in Westfield, Indiana. To his neighbors, he was, 00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:57.299 you know, an eccentric businessman who didn't 00:29:57.299 --> 00:30:00.089 cut his grass often enough. To history, he is 00:30:00.089 --> 00:30:03.349 the monster who buried at least 11 men in the 00:30:03.349 --> 00:30:05.369 woods behind his family home. And when we say 00:30:05.369 --> 00:30:07.990 buried, that's risking a massive understatement. 00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:10.670 I mean, Fox Hollow wasn't a cemetery. It was 00:30:10.670 --> 00:30:13.170 a disposal site that required an archaeological 00:30:13.170 --> 00:30:17.190 recovery. Investigators found over 10 ,000 crushed 00:30:17.190 --> 00:30:19.890 and burned human bone fragments scattered across 00:30:19.890 --> 00:30:23.170 that 18 -acre property. We are seeing identifications 00:30:23.170 --> 00:30:26.829 still rolling in as recently as 2024 and 2025. 00:30:27.950 --> 00:30:31.029 It's a scale of carnage that just defies easy 00:30:31.029 --> 00:30:33.289 comprehension. And frankly, it puts Baumeister 00:30:33.289 --> 00:30:36.029 in a category all his own. It's a tragedy of 00:30:36.029 --> 00:30:39.309 absolute devastation. But the central question 00:30:39.309 --> 00:30:41.890 we are debating today isn't about the guilt of 00:30:41.890 --> 00:30:45.250 the Fox Hollow killer. That is, I think, a settled 00:30:45.250 --> 00:30:48.089 fact. The debate is about the scope of the predator. 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:51.599 Is Erbomeister solely responsible for the Fox 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:54.559 Hollow horrors of the mid -1990s, or does the 00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:57.819 evidence point to him also being the I -70 Strangler, 00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:00.500 the phantom who left a trail of strangled men 00:31:00.500 --> 00:31:03.240 along the interstates of Indiana and Ohio throughout 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:05.940 the 1980s? I'm going to argue that we're looking 00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:09.359 at one man, one compulsion, and a lethal evolution 00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:12.599 of method. And I have to push back hard on that 00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:16.519 evolution theory right out of the gate. It's... 00:31:16.750 --> 00:31:19.109 Well, it's a seductive narrative because it wraps 00:31:19.109 --> 00:31:22.829 up a decade of cold cases with a neat bow. But 00:31:22.829 --> 00:31:25.730 when you look at the forensic psychology, specifically 00:31:25.730 --> 00:31:28.490 the difference between dumping a body in a public 00:31:28.490 --> 00:31:31.690 ditch to be found days later versus hoarding 00:31:31.690 --> 00:31:35.250 remains in your backyard for years, you see two 00:31:35.250 --> 00:31:39.549 fundamentally different profiles. I believe conflating 00:31:39.549 --> 00:31:42.289 the I -70 Strangler with the Fox Hollow Killer 00:31:42.289 --> 00:31:45.690 risks rewriting history to fit a convenient villain. 00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:49.400 And maybe, just maybe, letting the real I -70 00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:52.140 killer off the hook. I understand the hesitation. 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:56.180 I do. But let's look at the timeline. It is the 00:31:56.180 --> 00:31:59.519 strongest piece of this puzzle. The I -70 killings 00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:02.220 which terrorized the gay community in Indianapolis 00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:06.480 ran from roughly, say, June 1980 to October 1991. 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:11.200 Then, silence. Absolute silence on the interstate. 00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:14.660 Now look at Herb Baumeister. He buys Fox Hollow 00:32:14.660 --> 00:32:19.359 Farm in May of 1988. By the early 90s, the family 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:22.339 is settled, the woods are secluded, and suddenly 00:32:22.339 --> 00:32:24.960 the Fox Hollow disappearances begin in earnest. 00:32:25.299 --> 00:32:28.220 The end of the public dumpings correlates perfectly 00:32:28.220 --> 00:32:30.559 with the establishment of the private graveyard. 00:32:30.900 --> 00:32:33.559 The killer didn't vanish, he just went indoors. 00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:36.039 Perfectly is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. 00:32:36.259 --> 00:32:39.119 You mentioned the I -70 murder stopped in October 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:42.980 1991, but Baumeister bought the farm in May 1988. 00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.319 That is a three -year overlap. So if the farm 00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:49.519 was this master plan for privacy, why did victims 00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.759 like Stephen Lynn Elliott in 1989 or Clay Russell 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:56.460 Boatman in 1990 end up in ditches in Ohio? I 00:32:56.460 --> 00:32:59.220 mean, Baumeister had the farm. He had the privacy. 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.720 Yet the I -70 killer was still driving two hours 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.640 to dump bodies in public view. That isn't an 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:08.529 evolution. That's a contradiction. If the goal 00:33:08.529 --> 00:33:11.109 was concealment, he had the means to conceal 00:33:11.109 --> 00:33:14.089 them starting in 88. Not if you view behavior 00:33:14.089 --> 00:33:16.049 as a progression rather than a light switch. 00:33:16.390 --> 00:33:18.569 You don't move into a new house with your wife 00:33:18.569 --> 00:33:21.569 and three kids and start burying bodies in the 00:33:21.569 --> 00:33:23.950 yard the next day. It takes time to test the 00:33:23.950 --> 00:33:26.650 boundaries, to feel secure. Those three years 00:33:26.650 --> 00:33:28.890 were the transition period where he was perhaps 00:33:28.890 --> 00:33:31.369 testing the waters or simply hadn't built up 00:33:31.369 --> 00:33:33.970 the nerve to bring the violence home yet. And 00:33:33.970 --> 00:33:36.230 look at the source of the victims. This is the 00:33:36.230 --> 00:33:39.529 key. The I -70 Strangler hunted in a very specific 00:33:39.529 --> 00:33:43.089 ecosystem. The gay bars of Indianapolis, specifically 00:33:43.089 --> 00:33:46.250 within a four -block radius. Victims like Michael 00:33:46.250 --> 00:33:48.710 Sean Petrie and Delvoid Lee Baker were pulled 00:33:48.710 --> 00:33:51.450 from that scene. The hunting ground was the same, 00:33:51.549 --> 00:33:53.670 yes. I won't dispute that the victims came from 00:33:53.670 --> 00:33:56.509 the same community. Exactly. And ten years later, 00:33:56.710 --> 00:34:00.549 Ballmeister is prowling the exact same... bars, 00:34:00.710 --> 00:34:04.190 the 501 Club, the Varsity Lounge, picking up 00:34:04.190 --> 00:34:07.950 men like John Lee Baer and Manuel Resendez. The 00:34:07.950 --> 00:34:10.110 demographic is identical. The pickup location 00:34:10.110 --> 00:34:12.769 is identical. The method of initial contact is 00:34:12.769 --> 00:34:15.750 identical. You have two killing sprees targeting 00:34:15.750 --> 00:34:18.889 the same marginalized group from the same street 00:34:18.889 --> 00:34:22.130 corners in the same city. I mean, the statistical 00:34:22.130 --> 00:34:25.210 probability of two separate prolific serial killers 00:34:25.210 --> 00:34:28.090 operating in that same tight district, targeting 00:34:28.090 --> 00:34:31.090 the same men and handing off the baton perfectly 00:34:31.090 --> 00:34:34.750 in 1991, that just defies logic. It might defy 00:34:34.750 --> 00:34:37.690 narrative logic, but it doesn't defy criminal 00:34:37.690 --> 00:34:41.110 psychology. Let's talk about the disposal, because 00:34:41.110 --> 00:34:43.130 you're treating it like a logistical detail, 00:34:43.230 --> 00:34:45.210 but it's actually a psychological signature. 00:34:45.530 --> 00:34:48.670 The I -70 killer wanted his work to be seen. 00:34:49.099 --> 00:34:52.000 Bodies were found nude or semi -nude, often near 00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.099 roadways or railroad tracks. Michael Andrew Riley, 00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:59.400 found in 83, was left in a creek. This is discard 00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:02.360 psychology. It says, I am done with this object 00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:05.780 and I don't care who finds it. It's an act of 00:35:05.780 --> 00:35:08.960 exhibitionism or at least total indifference 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:12.599 to the discovery. Or an act of necessity. Compare 00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:15.820 that to Fox Hollow. That was concealment. That 00:35:15.820 --> 00:35:18.590 was hoarding. Baumeister didn't just kill these 00:35:18.590 --> 00:35:22.570 men. He kept them. He burned them, crushed the 00:35:22.570 --> 00:35:26.389 bones, buried them, dug them up, and reburied 00:35:26.389 --> 00:35:30.170 them. He was living on top of them. That speaks 00:35:30.170 --> 00:35:33.809 to a desire for possession, a need to keep the 00:35:33.809 --> 00:35:37.429 secret close. The I -70 killer was an extrovert 00:35:37.429 --> 00:35:41.110 in his crime. Baumeister was an introvert. Those 00:35:41.110 --> 00:35:44.280 are two opposing psychological rewards. You don't 00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.019 just wake up one day and switch from an exhibitionist 00:35:47.019 --> 00:35:50.360 to a hoarder. I disagree. I think you're mistaking 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:54.079 exhibitionism for lack of options. In the 80s, 00:35:54.099 --> 00:35:56.800 Baumeister was living in suburban Indianapolis 00:35:56.800 --> 00:35:59.320 houses with small yards and close neighbors. 00:35:59.619 --> 00:36:02.900 He couldn't keep them. He had to dump them. The 00:36:02.900 --> 00:36:05.219 display you're talking about was simply the only 00:36:05.219 --> 00:36:07.159 way to get rid of the evidence without getting 00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.300 caught by his neighbors or his wife. Fox Hollow 00:36:10.300 --> 00:36:13.150 didn't change his psychology. It unlocked his 00:36:13.150 --> 00:36:15.869 true desire. The farm allowed him to finally 00:36:15.869 --> 00:36:19.269 do what he always wanted. Keep them. The I -70 00:36:19.269 --> 00:36:21.989 dumpings were the compromise. Fox Hollow was 00:36:21.989 --> 00:36:24.309 the goal. That assumes a level of long -term 00:36:24.309 --> 00:36:26.409 planning that the evidence doesn't really support. 00:36:26.789 --> 00:36:29.690 If he always wanted to keep them, why did the 00:36:29.690 --> 00:36:32.829 I -70 killer leave so little evidence? Those 00:36:32.829 --> 00:36:35.710 scenes were clean. Swift strangulation, body 00:36:35.710 --> 00:36:38.829 dumped, killer gone. It was efficient. Now look 00:36:38.829 --> 00:36:41.250 at Fox Hollow. It was chaotic. We're talking 00:36:41.250 --> 00:36:43.730 about commingled remains, thousands of fragments. 00:36:44.030 --> 00:36:46.369 This wasn't a mastermind finally getting his 00:36:46.369 --> 00:36:49.650 way. This was a man spiraling into disorganization. 00:36:49.949 --> 00:36:53.469 The I -70 killer was cold and calculated. Ballmeister 00:36:53.469 --> 00:36:56.969 by the mid -90s was a mess. He was a mess because 00:36:56.969 --> 00:37:00.389 he was decomposing mentally and functionally. 00:37:00.630 --> 00:37:03.670 But let's go back to the method of killing, because 00:37:03.670 --> 00:37:07.130 this is where the link solidifies for me. Strangulation. 00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:11.639 The I -70 killer strangled his victims. Bowmeister 00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:14.440 strangled his victims. We aren't talking about 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.179 a shooter or a stabber. We are talking about 00:37:17.179 --> 00:37:20.559 a hands -on killer. Whether it was a rope in 00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:23.519 a ditch or a pool hose in a mansion, the mechanism 00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:26.820 of death, asphyxiation, is the constant. But 00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:29.820 the context of that strangulation is radically 00:37:29.820 --> 00:37:32.980 different. And this brings us to the Brian Smart 00:37:32.980 --> 00:37:36.280 persona. We have the testimony of Tony Harris. 00:37:36.829 --> 00:37:40.010 the man who survived Baumeister. And Harris describes 00:37:40.010 --> 00:37:43.730 a consensual scenario erotic asphyxiation using 00:37:43.730 --> 00:37:47.329 a pool hose during an intimate encounter. It 00:37:47.329 --> 00:37:50.510 was a ritual, a complex staged event involving 00:37:50.510 --> 00:37:54.150 trust and a slow buildup. Compare that to the 00:37:54.150 --> 00:37:57.989 I -70 victims. Eric Allen Rochker, found in 85, 00:37:58.429 --> 00:38:00.969 had a burn mark on his shoulder and was strangled 00:38:00.969 --> 00:38:03.829 with a rope. Michael Andrew Riley was likely 00:38:03.829 --> 00:38:06.730 strangled with a towel. These were brute force 00:38:06.730 --> 00:38:10.570 attacks, likely opportunistic. The I -70 murders 00:38:10.570 --> 00:38:14.010 look like predatory executions. The Fox Hollow 00:38:14.010 --> 00:38:16.670 murders look like sexual games that turn fatal, 00:38:16.750 --> 00:38:19.590 or were designed to be fatal from the start. 00:38:20.190 --> 00:38:23.070 Opportunistic doesn't mean simple. The I -70 00:38:23.070 --> 00:38:25.630 victims were often driven considerable distances. 00:38:26.429 --> 00:38:28.909 Michael Sean Petrie was seen in a stranger's 00:38:28.909 --> 00:38:31.969 car days before he was found. That implies a 00:38:31.969 --> 00:38:34.429 period of captivity, or at least a long drive. 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:38.539 That is intimacy, however twisted. And regarding 00:38:38.539 --> 00:38:41.539 the tool, the pool hose versus the rope, that 00:38:41.539 --> 00:38:44.320 is purely environmental. If you're in a car, 00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:47.599 you use what you have, a rope, a towel. If you're 00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:49.940 at your home with an indoor pool, you use the 00:38:49.940 --> 00:38:53.340 hose. The tool serves the environment. The killer 00:38:53.340 --> 00:38:56.599 adapt. You're asking for the MO to remain static 00:38:56.599 --> 00:39:00.300 for 15 years. But serial offenders evolve. They 00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:03.780 learn. They refine. Or they devolve. And that's 00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:06.820 what I see with Baumeister. You call it refinement. 00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:09.960 I call it sloppiness. Let's look at how he got 00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:13.199 caught. He let Tony Harris leave. He drove his 00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:16.340 own car, a gray Buick, and let Harris see the 00:39:16.340 --> 00:39:18.820 license plate. He was practically handing out 00:39:18.820 --> 00:39:21.860 his business card. Contrast that with the I -70 00:39:21.860 --> 00:39:25.139 killer, who was a ghost. No plates, no definitive 00:39:25.139 --> 00:39:27.699 sightings, just a vague description of a blue 00:39:27.699 --> 00:39:31.030 van or a red Jeep. The I -70 killer evaded the 00:39:31.030 --> 00:39:34.550 FBI for a decade. Baumeister got clocked by a 00:39:34.550 --> 00:39:37.130 club kid in a few months because he was reckless. 00:39:37.469 --> 00:39:40.269 Are we really saying this is the same criminal 00:39:40.269 --> 00:39:43.289 mastermind? The recklessness in the 90s was a 00:39:43.289 --> 00:39:46.190 symptom of his arrogance. He had gotten away 00:39:46.190 --> 00:39:49.869 with it for so long, 16 years by my count, that 00:39:49.869 --> 00:39:53.309 he felt invincible. That sloppiness with Tony 00:39:53.309 --> 00:39:56.250 Harris wasn't incompetence. It was the hubris 00:39:56.250 --> 00:39:58.909 of a predator who thought he owned the town. 00:39:59.309 --> 00:40:01.849 And let's not forget, the I -70 investigation 00:40:01.849 --> 00:40:05.170 was heating up in 91. He stopped because the 00:40:05.170 --> 00:40:07.989 heat was on. He moved the party to Fox Hollow 00:40:07.989 --> 00:40:10.329 because he thought he could control the variables. 00:40:10.630 --> 00:40:13.389 The fact that he eventually got lazy doesn't 00:40:13.389 --> 00:40:15.210 negate the decade of discipline that came before. 00:40:15.469 --> 00:40:18.510 It just shows that absolute power corrupts. I 00:40:18.510 --> 00:40:20.630 want to touch on the heat you mentioned. The 00:40:20.630 --> 00:40:23.710 I -70 killer stopped, yes. But if Baumeister 00:40:23.710 --> 00:40:26.769 was the I -70 killer, avoiding heat, why did 00:40:26.769 --> 00:40:30.030 he leave a gap? The I -70 murders stop in late 00:40:30.030 --> 00:40:33.210 91. The first identified Fox Hollow victims, 00:40:33.550 --> 00:40:35.690 men like Johnny Byer or Jeffrey Allen Jones, 00:40:35.909 --> 00:40:39.050 disappear in 93. That's an 18 -month silence. 00:40:39.369 --> 00:40:41.949 If the compulsion is the same, why the vacation? 00:40:42.429 --> 00:40:45.170 A serial killer driven by a need to strangle 00:40:45.170 --> 00:40:47.449 doesn't just take a sabbatical for a year and 00:40:47.449 --> 00:40:51.710 a half. Life happens. In 91 and 92, Ballmeister 00:40:51.710 --> 00:40:54.000 was expanding the save -a -lot business. His 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.340 wife, Julie, reported that his mood swings were 00:40:56.340 --> 00:40:58.840 getting worse, the marriage was straining. It's 00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:00.900 entirely possible that the pressures of life, 00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:03.579 combined with the close calls of the I -70 investigation, 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:07.059 force a dormancy. Or, and this is the darker 00:41:07.059 --> 00:41:09.840 reality, there are victims from 91 and 92 that 00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:12.179 we simply haven't identified yet. We have 10 00:41:12.179 --> 00:41:14.599 ,000 bone fragments. We are identifying people 00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:17.400 30 years later. To assume the gap is real is 00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:19.500 to assume we have found everyone, and I don't 00:41:19.500 --> 00:41:23.030 think we have. That is speculation, though. We 00:41:23.030 --> 00:41:25.630 have to debate the evidence we have, not the 00:41:25.630 --> 00:41:29.030 evidence we might find. And speaking of evidence, 00:41:29.250 --> 00:41:32.530 let's talk about the end. The suicide. Pinery 00:41:32.530 --> 00:41:36.829 Provincial Park, Ontario, July 1996. Ballmeister 00:41:36.829 --> 00:41:39.289 knows the police are digging up his yard. He 00:41:39.289 --> 00:41:42.289 flees. He shoots himself. He leaves a three -page 00:41:42.289 --> 00:41:45.630 note. The final confession. But it wasn't. That's 00:41:45.630 --> 00:41:48.289 the point. It was a three -page letter on yellow 00:41:48.289 --> 00:41:51.809 legal pad. And it was entirely about... Well, 00:41:51.849 --> 00:41:54.730 mundane failures. He talked about the failing 00:41:54.730 --> 00:41:57.030 thrift store business. He lamented the divorce. 00:41:57.329 --> 00:41:59.969 He apologized for messing up the park with his 00:41:59.969 --> 00:42:02.909 suicide. He mentioned his last meal was a peanut 00:42:02.909 --> 00:42:06.369 butter sandwich. But he wrote zero words, zero, 00:42:06.449 --> 00:42:10.449 about the 11 men in his backyard. Which is exactly 00:42:10.449 --> 00:42:12.530 what you would expect from a malignant narcissist. 00:42:13.090 --> 00:42:16.469 But if he was this prolific I -70 killer, a man 00:42:16.469 --> 00:42:19.639 who had terrorized the state for 16 years, Why 00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:22.619 not claim it? Why not go out with the infamy? 00:42:22.940 --> 00:42:26.000 The silence in that note suggests a level of 00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:28.179 compartmentalization that is just terrifying. 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:32.099 He truly didn't see himself as a monster. He 00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:35.420 saw himself as a failed businessman. No, he saw 00:42:35.420 --> 00:42:38.260 himself as a victim. That's the key to the note. 00:42:38.460 --> 00:42:41.380 He was feeling sorry for himself. Admitting to 00:42:41.380 --> 00:42:44.139 the murders, Fox Hollow or I -70 would have shattered 00:42:44.139 --> 00:42:46.420 the one thing he valued more than human life, 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:49.360 his image. He wanted to be remembered as the 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:51.820 businessman who had a bad run of luck, not the 00:42:51.820 --> 00:42:54.519 sexual predator. The fact that he didn't mention 00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:56.719 the fox hollow bodies, which we know were there, 00:42:56.900 --> 00:43:00.019 proves that his silence means nothing. If he 00:43:00.019 --> 00:43:01.920 can ignore the bones his kids were finding in 00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:04.179 the yard, he can certainly ignore the bodies 00:43:04.179 --> 00:43:07.159 he left in ditches 10 years prior. The omission 00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:09.860 is an act of image management, not proof of innocence. 00:43:10.179 --> 00:43:13.340 I grant you the narcissism, but let's look at 00:43:13.340 --> 00:43:16.659 the physical descriptions from the I -70 era. 00:43:17.150 --> 00:43:19.809 We have witnesses in the Delvoid -Lee Baker case 00:43:19.809 --> 00:43:23.929 who saw a blue van. In the James Boyd Robbins 00:43:23.929 --> 00:43:27.349 case, witnesses described a red Jeep or a Chevy 00:43:27.349 --> 00:43:30.570 Blazer. Baumeister drove a gray Buick in the 00:43:30.570 --> 00:43:33.789 90s. In the 80s, he had access to company cars, 00:43:34.070 --> 00:43:37.170 sure, but there is no definitive link to these 00:43:37.170 --> 00:43:40.469 specific vehicles. We're trying to jam a square 00:43:40.469 --> 00:43:43.650 peg into a round hole because the timeline is 00:43:43.650 --> 00:43:46.440 convenient. Witness testimony on car colors from 00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:49.980 the 1980s is notoriously unreliable. Nighttime, 00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:52.719 sodium lights, blue looks black, red looks brown. 00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:56.400 But you know what isn't unreliable? The face. 00:43:56.699 --> 00:43:59.599 Look at the composite sketch of the I -70 suspect. 00:44:00.019 --> 00:44:03.159 White male, average build, distinct bushy mustache. 00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:06.460 Now look at Harbaugh Meister's mugshot from 1986. 00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:10.099 It is the same man. The physical resemblance 00:44:10.099 --> 00:44:13.190 is undeniable. And regarding the cars, he was 00:44:13.190 --> 00:44:16.010 a businessman. He had a fleet for Save -A -Lot. 00:44:16.070 --> 00:44:19.449 He rented vehicles. A predator who uses his own 00:44:19.449 --> 00:44:22.269 distinct car every time is a predator who gets 00:44:22.269 --> 00:44:24.869 caught in week one. The variation in vehicles 00:44:24.869 --> 00:44:27.269 actually supports the theory of a calculated 00:44:27.269 --> 00:44:30.690 killer. Calculated? We just established he was 00:44:30.690 --> 00:44:33.550 sloppy with Tony Harris. You can't have it both 00:44:33.550 --> 00:44:36.070 ways. You can't say he was a master of disguise 00:44:36.070 --> 00:44:38.949 in the 80s and then claim his sloppiness in the 00:44:38.949 --> 00:44:42.409 90s was just arrogance. I think the simpler explanation 00:44:42.409 --> 00:44:45.909 is that the I -70 killer was a transient. The 00:44:45.909 --> 00:44:49.050 interstate profile fits a trucker, someone mobile. 00:44:49.510 --> 00:44:52.900 Ballmeister was local. He was rooted. The I -70 00:44:52.900 --> 00:44:56.199 crimes scream mobility. The Fox Hollow crimes 00:44:56.199 --> 00:44:59.619 scream stagnation. But the I -70 dump sites, 00:44:59.900 --> 00:45:02.780 Hamilton County, Preble County, these aren't 00:45:02.780 --> 00:45:05.760 cross -country dumps. They are local dumps. They 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:07.719 are within a two -hour drive of Indianapolis. 00:45:07.980 --> 00:45:11.599 A local knows the back roads. A local knows which 00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:14.900 exits have no cameras. Otto Gary Becker, found 00:45:14.900 --> 00:45:18.699 in 1991, was in Henry County. That is Beaumeister's 00:45:18.699 --> 00:45:21.599 backyard. The transient theory is the one that 00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:23.840 lets us sleep at night because it means the killer 00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:26.780 moves on. The neighbor theory is the reality. 00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:29.960 There is one victim that troubles your timeline, 00:45:30.059 --> 00:45:33.340 though. Jerry Williams Comer. He went missing 00:45:33.340 --> 00:45:36.739 in August 1995, height of the Fox Hollow era. 00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:40.440 His car was found at a mall. He fits the profile 00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:43.579 perfectly, but his remains were never found at 00:45:43.579 --> 00:45:46.360 Fox Hollow. Authorities linked him to Bymeister, 00:45:46.460 --> 00:45:49.179 but without the physical remains, It implies 00:45:49.179 --> 00:45:52.500 that even in the 90s, the M .O. wasn't absolute. 00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:56.119 If Bymeister was the I -70 killer, wouldn't we 00:45:56.119 --> 00:45:59.219 expect to find at least one I -70 victim transferred 00:45:59.219 --> 00:46:02.420 to the farm? A transitional victim, someone who 00:46:02.420 --> 00:46:05.360 bridges the gap? We have nothing. Because the 00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:08.380 farm wasn't ready yet. The transitional victims 00:46:08.380 --> 00:46:10.780 are the ones in the gap, the ones we haven't 00:46:10.780 --> 00:46:14.340 found. Or perhaps the transition was purely mental. 00:46:14.539 --> 00:46:17.980 He decided, no more driving, no more ditches. 00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:21.260 The lack of physical overlap is exactly what 00:46:21.260 --> 00:46:23.579 you expect when a killer changes his methodology. 00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:26.860 But the psychological overlap is the fingerprint. 00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:31.840 Gay men. Strangulation. Indianapolis. The same 00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:34.840 four blocks. If you deny the connection, you 00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:37.099 are arguing that Herb Baumeister, a man with 00:46:37.099 --> 00:46:39.679 a history of urophilia and dead animals, just 00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:43.719 started killing at an expert level in 1993. That 00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:47.750 doesn't happen. Killers practice. The I -70 murders 00:46:47.750 --> 00:46:51.110 were his practice run. Expert level? Again, I 00:46:51.110 --> 00:46:55.150 point to the chaos of the bone field. That isn't 00:46:55.150 --> 00:46:58.710 expertise. It's madness. It's a frenzy. But I 00:46:58.710 --> 00:47:01.909 will concede this. The duality of the man is 00:47:01.909 --> 00:47:05.090 staggering. He founded a charity thrift store 00:47:05.090 --> 00:47:08.110 while burying men in his garden. He hosted pool 00:47:08.110 --> 00:47:10.929 parties for the community while bones were literally 00:47:10.929 --> 00:47:14.210 surfacing in the woods 100 yards away. He was 00:47:14.210 --> 00:47:17.570 a master of bifurcation. He was, and it creates 00:47:17.570 --> 00:47:21.190 a very difficult shadow to peer into. But I worry 00:47:21.190 --> 00:47:24.130 that by pinning I -70 on him, we are closing 00:47:24.130 --> 00:47:27.269 the book on men like Eric Allen Rotger and Michael 00:47:27.269 --> 00:47:30.269 Allen Glenn. We are offering their families a 00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:33.809 likely answer rather than a proven one. The forensic 00:47:33.809 --> 00:47:37.250 DNA linkage just isn't there. There were other 00:47:37.250 --> 00:47:39.869 predators in the Midwest. There was Larry Eiler, 00:47:39.989 --> 00:47:42.550 the highway killer, operating in a similar time 00:47:42.550 --> 00:47:46.360 frame nearby. It wasn't just Bowmeister. The 00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:49.280 world was dangerous, and until we have that link, 00:47:49.460 --> 00:47:52.559 skepticism is the only respectful position. And 00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:55.219 I worry that by separating them, we underestimate 00:47:55.219 --> 00:47:58.900 the capacity of the man. We fail to see how a 00:47:58.900 --> 00:48:02.199 predator adapts to survive. I look at the cessation 00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:05.760 of I -70 in 91 and the rise of Fox Hollow in 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:09.789 93, and I don't see a coincidence. I see a timeline 00:48:09.789 --> 00:48:12.570 of terror that simply changed addresses. The 00:48:12.570 --> 00:48:14.829 Fox Hollow discovery didn't just expose a new 00:48:14.829 --> 00:48:17.090 killer, it solved the mystery of where the old 00:48:17.090 --> 00:48:20.570 one went. He went home. That is a chilling thought. 00:48:20.809 --> 00:48:23.969 And perhaps you are right. But as I look at the 00:48:23.969 --> 00:48:27.130 differences, the rope versus the hose, the ditch 00:48:27.130 --> 00:48:30.389 versus the garden, the display versus the hoarding, 00:48:30.429 --> 00:48:34.440 I see a chasm. A chasm that leaves room for another 00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:37.139 monster in the dark. Whether it was one monster 00:48:37.139 --> 00:48:40.139 or two, the devastation they left behind is singular. 00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:43.039 Families of men like Alan Lee Livingston waited 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.300 30 years for a phone call. We are only just now 00:48:46.300 --> 00:48:48.420 learning the names of the men Baumeister tried 00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:51.260 to erase. And families of the I -70 victims are 00:48:51.260 --> 00:48:55.460 still waiting. That ambiguity is the final cruelty 00:48:55.460 --> 00:48:58.500 of these crimes. It is. Thank you for joining 00:48:58.500 --> 00:48:59.920 The Debate. Thank you.